Myth of Gehenna

[Taffy]

In terms of destiny it is an exciting battle between good and evil and God can show off his military might by smashing his enemies to pieces. I think most people in the world, enjoy a good fight and for the forces of good to unite and celebrate ultimate victory over evil.

Eph 6:12   For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].    :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

2 Corintians 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

Images of the MINDS . . . .source of carnality is in the mind that is at enmity against God . . .no?

[Taffy]

2 Corintians 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

Images of the MINDS . . . .source of carnality is in the mind that is at enmity against God . . .no?

:thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

A single star even coming near (astronomical speaking) will be the end....
Dunno what it means. Perhaps this: http://www.finalevents.com/Event1/Sign06.asp?p=O

[micah7:9]

But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen.  Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it.  Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.

Again :thumbsup:

[redhotmagma]

stars falling to earth could be angels , the sky opening like  scroll to me is when the curtain is pulled back that separates the physical world from the spiritual.  wormwood is what we're seeing in Japan right now, poisoning of the seas. 

Cardinal (I believe) talks about the two Bibles one spiritual, one natural.  I believe that the natural events that are the symbols for the spiritual of revelation (and other "end time" events) will happen otherwise both Bibles won't be fulfilled.  To me I see the end time bringing the natural and spiritual together, so while there is a huge move of the revelation of Jesus within people, and all those spiritual battles happening, the beast (self) in your holy of holies and all that, at the same time a natural beast will arise.  I wonder if much of the tribulation is when worlds collide, as the realm of life comes crashing into the realm of knowledge of good and evil  until there is no more separation between the realms.

The biggest issue I have with saying the natural doesn't matter, then did the events of the OT actually happen?  Is the entire Bible an allegory?  with no historical value?

[thinktank]

But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen.  Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it.  Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.

Some people interpret e.g the star wormwood as a nuclear blast setting up radiation that poisons the water, but it could also be purely supernatural events. The natural mind cannot comprehend the supernatural, no one believed that Jesus rose from the dead and they even made reports that someone stole his body.

We get into trouble when we try to interpret supernatural concepts with our natural minds.

[thinktank]

2 Corintians 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

Images of the MINDS . . . .source of carnality is in the mind that is at enmity against God . . .no?

Yes, but if that mind decides to create a scientific device inspired by the devil, to attack and destroy God and His saints, is that emnity against God?

What will God do with such a mind?

[Taffy]

But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen.  Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it.  Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.

Some people interpret e.g the star wormwood as a nuclear blast setting up radiation that poisons the water, but it could also be purely supernatural events. The natural mind cannot comprehend the supernatural, no one believed that Jesus rose from the dead and they even made reports that someone stole his body.

We get into trouble when we try to interpret supernatural concepts with our natural minds.

the Unseen is MADE known by those things MADE---Rom 1-21 :icon_flower:

wormwood [bitter]is Likened to Turning Back\into  DEATH= SIN---Amo 5:7Jer 9:13-15, Deu 29:14-18, Rev 8:10-11 :icon_flower:

Amo 5:7   Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the EARTH

Pro 5:1  My son, attend unto my wisdom, [and] bow thine ear to my understanding:  


Pro 5:2   That thou mayest regard discretion, and [that] thy lips may keep knowledge. 


Pro 5:3   For the lips of a strange woman drop [as] an honeycomb, and her mouth [is] smoother than oil: 


Pro 5:4   But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.  


Ecc 7:25   I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason [of things], and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness [and] madness:  


Ecc 7:26   And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart [is] snares and nets, [and] her hands [as] bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her


Pro 5:5   Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.  
:sigh:

WHY woman or women?  The Lord sees all FLESH as female  :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

The biggest issue I have with saying the natural doesn't matter, then did the events of the OT actually happen?  Is the entire Bible an allegory?  with no historical value?

The OT is Vieled while the NT unviels - First the Natural as In the SHADOW\TYPE or pattern made KNOWN  [The Spiritual gives LIFE]  in The NEW-- such happenings [ OLD\natural\ Physical ]were to\for our admonition--- :icon_flower:

[lookingup]

Jeremiah 7:31–32 (ESV)
31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. 32 Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when ...


Lets see:

noted the bolded part,"nor did it come to my mind",
hmmmm.........................................so God saw the sacrifices of children to a false god, and it hits Him, yeah thats what  to do, burn eternally the ones I can't turn................................. :sigh:

[Taffy]

2 Corintians 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

Images of the MINDS . . . .source of carnality is in the mind that is at enmity against God . . .no?

Yes, but if that mind decides to create a scientific device inspired by the devil, to attack and destroy God and His saints, is that emnity against God?

What will God do with such a mind?

As the Carnal Mind is DEATH--- then it to will  perish like all MINDS who dwell  within the Grave-  :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Jeremiah 7:31–32 (ESV)
31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. 32 Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when ...


Lets see:

noted the bolded part,"nor did it come to my mind",
hmmmm.........................................so God saw the sacrifices of children to a false god, and it hits Him, yeah thats what  to do, burn eternally the ones I can't turn................................. :sigh:

if anyone has noticed - the Only folk who were to take Part in Gehenna within the NT- were the Religious fraction of their DAY-namely the Jews  :sigh:- where does it state ALL mankind?

[Doug]

Jeremiah 7:31–32 (ESV)
31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. 32 Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when ...


Lets see:

noted the bolded part,"nor did it come to my mind",

This, I think, is the key idea that Jesus would have associated with Gehenna. 

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Would God bring children into the world, only to have them burn in a fire?

Doug

Gehenna in the 'Love Wins' controversy

[Doug]

if anyone has noticed - the Only folk who were to take Part in Gehenna within the NT- were the Religious fraction of their DAY-namely the Jews 

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.

Do you really think this is limited to the first century Jews?

Doug

Gehenna in Mark 9:43-48

[Doug]

But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen.  Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it.  Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.

When a scroll is rolled together, the rotation of the spindles stops. That pictures what happened in the scientific revolution. The heavens were thought to have been revolving around the earth; this ceased when the diurnal rotation was assigned to the earth.

Stars falling could picture the idea of universal gravitation. According to this principle, everything in the universe "falls" down. The moon "falls" to the earth; the sun and moon and planets all "fall" towards each other; in fact, every particle in the universe "falls" to every other mass.

These things were discovered by Newton, but were foretold long ago by Isaiah, in chapter 34.

Doug

The Bishop, the Ghost, and Gehenna

[Taffy]

if anyone has noticed - the Only folk who were to take Part in Gehenna within the NT- were the Religious fraction of their DAY-namely the Jews 

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.

Do you really think this is limited to the first century Jews?

Doug

Gehenna in Mark 9:43-48

One post was refering to THE jews who were threatened by it come the NT- Im aware of its usage proir--the POINT being it has No mention of otherS then the religous of the day - as for SPEAKING with the the Tongue Of Gehenna-this being mention in an earlier posting- :icon_flower:

I dare say there were quite a few in their day who cut off their feet,hand and plucked out their eyes--- if this all is literal :sigh:

[WhiteWings]

Origen was a literal guy. He cut off his family jewels to control his lust...(http://th62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/Sid401k/th_scissors.gif)


BTW cutting of hands and feet has nothing to do with literal. It's part of a teaching method called "light and heavy" that was used by all Rabbies at that time (and long before/after). A similar teaching is: Taffy change the oil in your car when the temp runs up slightly.

[Taffy]

Origen was a literal guy. He cut off his family jewels to control his lust...(http://th62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/Sid401k/th_scissors.gif)


BTW cutting of hands and feet has nothing to do with literal. It's part of a teaching method called "light and heavy" that was used by all Rabbies at that time (and long before/after). A similar teaching is: Taffy change the oil in your car when the temp runs up slightly.

Dont you find it odd thatChrist Never spoke a Word in PUBLIC lest it be in Parables [Mar 4:34   ]- Math 5 and there were times when even speaking to the disciples ALONE they still did not understand -Math 18-

The feet hands eye are shown in the Natural which bears witness to the Spiritual come the New- Hence theres always a witness- and that WITNESS is Not mans Private interpretation- Blessings :icon_flower:

[Doug]

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.

Do you really think this is limited to the first century Jews?

One post was refering to THE jews who were threatened by it come the NT- Im aware of its usage proir--the POINT being it has No mention of otherS then the religous of the day -

In most cases where Gehenna is mentioned, Jesus addressed his disciples. In only 2 out of 12 places was he speaking to Pharisees; these are Matthew 23:15 & 32.

Doug

Jewish fables about Gehenna

[Taffy]

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.

Do you really think this is limited to the first century Jews?

One post was refering to THE jews who were threatened by it come the NT- Im aware of its usage proir--the POINT being it has No mention of otherS then the religous of the day -

In most cases where Gehenna is mentioned, Jesus addressed his disciples. In only 2 out of 12 places was he speaking to Pharisees; these are Matthew 23:15 & 32.

Doug

Jewish fables about Gehenna

WELL AMEN DOUG- as mentioned those who were to take part were the religious fraction of the DAY-  :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

I think there are roughly 3 groups in the Bible.

1] Spiritual things. Often 'hidden' in 2 and 3
2] Literal events. Jesus was really on the cross. Literal rain of fire on Sodom.
3] As-if teachings. Literal events with symbolic names. Jesus was sacrificed like a lamb (=literal). But symbolic because He was no animal AND because calling Him a Lamb summarizes half of the OT.

[Taffy]

I think there are roughly 3 groups in the Bible.

1] Spiritual things. Often 'hidden' in 2 and 3
2] Literal events. Jesus was really on the cross. Literal rain of fire on Sodom.
3] As-if teachings. Literal events with symbolic names. Jesus was sacrificed like a lamb (=literal). But symbolic because He was no animal AND because calling Him a Lamb summarizes half of the OT.

Look up the acronym PARDES---  :icon_flower:

No ones throwing the literal take out the water-

[Taffy]

heres Just one ex WW- why does Paul mention the sound of Pipes and harps?
Is he literally meaning a Harp
1Cr 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

Or does the HARP which David Played have greater meaning? 22 strings on a Harp?  22 letters to the Hebrew alphabet= 22, 000 Levites who worked the Tabernacle-- 22 bowls upon the Candlestick in the TEMPLE filled with OIL- Light=  to Prohesy on a HARP and Open a RIDDLE[ Parable?]

Psa 49:4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying[ RIDDLE] upon the harp.

Just as the Carnal Eyes see only the Black and white , surely doesnt mean thats ALL there is to SEE---  :icon_flower:  even if some cant see it -- doesnt negate the fact theres more then what meets the EYE[ UNDERSTANDING]

[WhiteWings]

I can remember a thread about PARDES but that's about it.

Funny you mention 22. I wrote something about it yesterday: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/order_books_9404.msg120051.html#msg120051
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