Tentmaker Forum

I was reading this (Please check URL below)
http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm
OR
search google for
God's eonian purpose by Adlai Loudy.

and it is written here in Chapter 19 on Death and Hell that,

""The lake of fire is eonian torment for the Wild Beast, the False Prophet, and Satan, and the second death for irreverent men--those not found written in the book of life.""
AND
""These Scriptures tell us that, after the great and small have been judged before the Great White Throne and paid their due, those not found written in the scroll of life were cast into the lake of fire--which is the second death. Now there is no need for us to incriminate ourselves by insisting on the doctrine of "eternal torment" for wicked mankind here, when the Scriptures say, unequivocally, that they are returned to death. Neither is it wisdom or reverence for us to seek an explanation of the lake of fire in the commentaries and philosophies of men, when God Himself has given us His own explanation. It is the second death, therefore, it can be nothing more than a repetition of the first, and as the first death was simply a complete dissolution and return to the state of unconsciousness, so will be the second death. It is never said to be punishment for mankind in the Scriptures. Such teaching has grown out of a misguided zeal of teachers in behalf of the unscriptural, heathenish idea of the "immortality of the soul," connected with a perverted doctrine of eternal punishment in a hell of which the word of God in its purity knows nothing. God says it is the second death. This should be final for all truth lovers.""

MY QUESTIONS

This concept of second death and the lake of fire is rather confusing to me.
*How is it that the lake of fire is eonian torment for satan,wild beast etc. but just the second death for irreverent humanity.

*If the LOF is not eonian punishment for unbelievers,then when/how/where do these dead unbelievers get punished?

*What is this scroll of life? It cant be the names of the ones who believed Jesus, as
only unbelievers are resurrected at this Great White Throne Judgement.So,what is its purpose of this scroll of life?

*And Could you also elaborate on the significance of death and resurrection of Jesus as far as the Unbeliever(who has been in unbelief till the last,or lets say the last unbeliever prior to consummation) is concerned?
Since, He had to pay the dues for His sins himself at the Great White Throne Judgement (Or did he? :dontknow:).Is it that God was conciliated to Him, but He was not conciliated to God.So,Jesus made the way clear on God's side?
i hope you get what iam trying to ask here.

I would be grateful if you could give me your thoughts/teachings on these.
And i apologise if any of these questions sound/are stupid.But iam just trying to learn and am in the beginning stages.

Josh

I did get an answer to my last question
:boogie: Thank God :Pray:
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/unbeliever.html
""Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation. Judgment is but a means He uses, a process which leads to the opening of the unbeliever's eyes. It does not remove his guilt or cleanse a single sin. That is done wholly and solely by the blood of Christ""

Hey Josh,
I wish I had some wisdom or answers for you but unfortunately I do not! I am right where you are, unsure of how all this works. I had just noticed that nobody had replied to you yet and i'm assuming that it may be for the same reason. We can guess all we want but when it comes right down to it I think there are some things we may never know until they actually come about. What I try to do is just trust God with it knowing that He is Good and is Love and that He will always act in goodness and love.

Wish I coulda been of more help to you!

Holly

I'm no scholar myself, but I will let you know what I believe about the Lake of fire in a nutshell.

The lake of fire is the second death, the last enemy that Jesus will abolish is death. Therefore there will be no one in the state of death

To me the lake of fire will be the vehicle used by God and His son to teach righteousness to the ones that doesn't learn in this lifetime.
To me this is the way that isaiahs' prophesy "when thy judgements are in the earth, the world will learn righteousness" comes to be

Just an opinion

                                    Gods' Love and peace

willieH: Hi Josh... :hithere:

Quote from: ibelongtoyoujesus on December 06, 2009, 09:16:08 PMMY QUESTIONS

This concept of second death and the lake of fire is rather confusing to me.
*How is it that the lake of fire is eonian torment for satan,wild beast etc. but just the second death for irreverent humanity.

Humanity is not "irreverent"... It is VEILED and CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF, by GOD -- Rom 11:32 -- GOD drives men into CAPTIVITY -- Jer 29:14 -- and at HIS decision -- John 6:44 -- is each one -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- redeemed from that CAPTIVITY -- by the CROSS of His Son, JESUS CHRIST -- Heb 2:9

Quote from: ibelongtoyoujesus on December 06, 2009, 09:16:08 PM*If the LOF is not eonian punishment for unbelievers,then when/how/where do these dead unbelievers get punished?

THIS LIFE is the "LOF"... And in THIS LIFE, are we punished for our indescretions, as we of the FLESH, REAP what we SOW -- The "punishment" is that which is availed in -- natural disasters [tornadoes, earthquakes, tidal waves, etc], diseases [cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc], sorrows [war, loss of loved ones, loss of youth, loss of ...hair & teeth! etc.  :laughing7:] -- etc.

Quote from: ibelongtoyoujesus on December 06, 2009, 09:16:08 PM*What is this scroll of life?

The "book of life" is the LIFE of the LAMB... the books that are opened before GOD [Rev 20:12 -- IN THIS LIFE -- are the lives of MEN who are ALL SINFUL and worthy of the appointment to DEATH... (isn't it quite interesting that the year 2012 is the predicted end... and Rev 20:12  is the defining of JUDGMENT?)  :mshock:

ALL men have an appointment with DEATH -- Heb 9:27 IN THIS LIFE... which means that they have been CAST INTO this LIFE... and DEATH is a part of THIS LIFE...

Quote from: ibelongtoyoujesus on December 06, 2009, 09:16:08 PMIt cant be the names of the ones who believed Jesus, as
only unbelievers are resurrected at this Great White Throne Judgement.So,what is its purpose of this scroll of life?

IMO ...you are looking upon the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST who has no beginning or end, in CHRONOLOGICAL terms... such Literal and/or linear vision, will fail to grasp the ETERNAL which has no such literal or linear boundaries...

The JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW... CHRIST said so, do you believe what He says? -- John 12:31

Quote from: ibelongtoyoujesus on December 06, 2009, 09:16:08 PM*And Could you also elaborate on the significance of death and resurrection of Jesus as far as the Unbeliever (who has been in unbelief till the last, or lets say the last unbeliever prior to consummation) is concerned?

ALL begin as UNBELIEVERS -- Rom 11:32 -- then GOD (who ALONE is the Savior, not needing OUR "assistance" or "acceptance") rescues ALL one by one, in DUE TIME -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- 1 Tim 2:3-6

No man CAN come to CHRIST of his OWN DECISION -- John 6:44 & 65 -- Only by the decision of GOD to DRAG that one to CHRIST, can the CHRIST be REVEALED to him/her.  Only the FATHER is able to REVEAL CHRIST and CHRIST, the FATHER -- Matt 11:27 -- John 14:6 -- 

NO MAN can of himself, or via the aid or prompting of ANY other MAN, find the Savior OR the Father...

NO man CAN confess CHRIST as LORD (which is the saving word that GOD prompts, from our hearts -- Rom 10:13), except BY the Holy Spirit of God -- 1 Cor 12:3

So the answer to your question is ---- ALL are CONCLUDED by GOD, in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- (of the primary electives to the LOF -- Rev 21:8)

Quote from: ibelongtoyoujesus on December 06, 2009, 09:16:08 PMSince, He had to pay the dues for His sins himself at the Great White Throne Judgement (Or did he? :dontknow:).Is it that God was conciliated to Him, but He was not conciliated to God.So,Jesus made the way clear on God's side?
i hope you get what iam trying to ask here.

:scratchhead:  Not sure what you are saying... but might I offer to you, that JESUS Himself plainly stated that He did NOTHING of Himself -- John 8:28 -- which means that HE did not INITIATE anything.

Quote from: ibelongtoyoujesus on December 06, 2009, 09:16:08 PMI would be grateful if you could give me your thoughts/teachings on these.
And i apologise if any of these questions sound/are stupid.But iam just trying to learn and am in the beginning stages.

Don't be embarrassed  :mblush: ...new friend... :mnah:

The only "stupid question" is one that is not asked.   :happygrin:  Any question deserves an answer... for it is a pivotal processing element, within the way in which we learn...  :teaching: = :Book: = :teaching:

:Peace:

Punishment exists in the consience though the understanding of the knowledge of good and evil that does not see the unconditional love of God.

The lake of fire is the catastrophic end of the old covenant in AD 70 which convicted those under the law and thus in their conscience of being abandoned and forsaken by God. Thus they failed to have obtained a clear consience through the knowledge of God's grace as Christ had taken on this upon himself saying "my God my God why have you forsaken me?"   

JMO
Blessings Barry

lol willieH.

Rev. 20:12...I didn't see that coming, the number, I was like "oh that 2012?!" lol creep me out...

however, I failed to see what you explain about the punishment we get here but how come the most evil one like Castro, Hitler or Al Gore (he believe in killing 50% of population will save the earth) doesn't get any punishment, while good people get more often?!

willieH: Hi IceDash...  :happygrin:

Quote from: IceDash on December 12, 2009, 12:35:46 AM
lol willieH.

Rev. 20:12...I didn't see that coming, the number, I was like "oh that 2012?!" lol creep me out...

Just noticed these numbers as alike... wasn't trying to state unequivocally that they are truly connected...  :laughing7: ...However interestingly enough, ..the WORD says no man knows the DAY or the HOUR, ...but doesn't say ANYTHING about, men "knowing" the YEAR"...   :dontknow:

Quote from: IceDash on December 12, 2009, 12:35:46 AMhowever, I failed to see what you explain about the punishment we get here

One must relate to GOD and His doings with REASON... for He INSTRUCTS us to do so:  Isaiah 1:18

Why do you think such MULTITUDES of sorrow exist in this life I-D?  What REASON is found in them, I-D?

Why are there SO MANY MANY ways that we can SUFFER?  Why are there SO MANY MANY ways we can experience SORROW?  Is it just for the "fun of it"?  :mshock: What REASON is found in them?

And once we traverse this life, which is laden with disappointment, suffering, and loss... to say that we are only to recieve EVEN MORE afterwards? -- :mshock: -- IMO such is not only UNREASONABLE... but hardly PORTRAYS God as "of" PEACE, nor "of" LOVE, nor "of" COMPASSION...

It paints a picture of a COSMIC BULLY... that hardly deals in any of those...  :sigh:

Quote from: IceDash on December 12, 2009, 12:35:46 AMbut how come the most evil one like Castro, Hitler or Al Gore (he believe in killing 50% of population will save the earth) doesn't get any punishment, while good people get more often?

:omg:  ANY?

FIRST -- GOD decided that the DESTRUCTION of 99%+ of the population of the Earth was in order via the FLOOD!  Shall you decide that GOD is haywire in the same way you percieve AL GORE?  :wacko2:

SECOND -- If you do NOT KNOW all the details of sorrow and joy and PUNISHMENT ...associated with CASTRO, HITLER and AL GORE (which you DO NOT), ...then your observation of ALL of them is VASTLY INCOMPLETE.

Btw... PAUL was INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit, to name HIMSELF as "chief of sinners"... a title neither Hitler, Castro or Gore are due.  :dontknow: -- 1 Tim 1:18

How can YOU say (with such a hearsay-ridden, surface observation of these men) that these men did not recieve GOD's decided punishments within their lifetimes?  Without a complete observation of their entire lives, you therefore speak as one UNINFORMED.

This is like going to ONE baseball game and seeing a particular player hit a home run, and then deducing from this observation, that he does so (hits a home run) in EVERY GAME he plays... :prankster:

ALL "punishments" are not administered PHYSICALLY, and "sorrow" (which is opposite of JOY), OFTEN is much harder to deal with in the SPIRIT, than it is in the PHYSICAL...

PHYSICAL --- I can get a BROKEN ARM, and in a few months get over it, however...

SPIRITUAL --- I might get a BROKEN HEART and live 50 years with that BROKEN HEART, never getting over it!

Though we are somewhat aware of the PHYSICAL sorrows Hitler caused in his lifetime, ...Only God knows the SPIRITUAL sorrows he might have experienced in his lifetime, which were due him for those earthly indescretions...  :dontknow:

You are welcome to your opinion bro, ...but in the end, that is all that it is...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

willieH I totally get what you are trying to say regarding spiritual sorrows and punishments in this life. I agree with you on the fact that our sorrows here are most definitely part of the fire that is to perfect and shape us. However I also believe that some will need more than just the fire they had in this life to become righteous, thus the second death. Of course, neither of us can be 100% sure, we are both just guessing. So I guess we'll see who's right on the other side.  :happygrin:  :cloud9:

willieH: Hi lomarah  :cloud9:

I make a recommendation (below that follows logic and REASON) that you reconsider your position below (which is that there is MORE TORMENT to come for some)...

Quote from: lomarah on December 12, 2009, 09:54:45 PM
willieH I totally get what you are trying to say regarding spiritual sorrows and punishments in this life. I agree with you on the fact that our sorrows here are most definitely part of the fire that is to perfect and shape us.

God instructs us to REASON bro -- Isaiah 1:18 -- And there is NO REASON found in a lifetime FULL of various TORMENTS, followed by another (undetermined) period of TORMENT... within a message [GOSPEL] that is BIBLICALLY described as CHEERFUL, GLAD, and GOOD... :mnah:

If the PRICE has been FULLY PAID for ALL... (which it has -- Heb 2:9/tasted death for all -- 1 Tim 2:3-6/ransom for all -- 1 Cor 6:19-20/bought with a price) -- then what REASON is found in further TORMENT? 

Rev 3:18 suggests that SHAME of NAKEDNESS is that which finds itself outside the CLOTHING of CHRIST, ...NOT... Additional "torment by FIRE".

The GOSPEL is intended to be preached to EVERY CREATURE -- Mark 16:15 -- What PEACE is found in TORMENT, lomarah?  FEAR is the basis of a message of TORMENT, and there is NO FEAR in LOVE -- 1 John 4:18 -- any message containing FEAR is NOT a message of LOVE, for there is TORMENT -- in FEAR!

The GOSPEL is a message of PEACE and GLAD tidings (tidings=CHEERFUL ANNOUNCEMENT --to be preached to ALL MEN) -- Rom 10:15 -- What is "CHEERFUL" about MORE suffering, lomarah?  What is "PEACEFUL" about MORE suffering?  :dontknow:

Quote from: lomarah on December 12, 2009, 09:54:45 PMHowever I also believe that some will need more than just the fire they had in this life to become righteous, thus the second death.

You are welcome to your observation which [IMO] is devoid of REASON... Because anyone "BELIEVES" something, does NOT make it so.  The "belief" must be aligned with REASON and founded within the WORD, according to REASON.

It is UNREASONABLE that Christianity brings a message to the WORLD that GOD so LOVES, Which says -- Hey friend... I have GOOD NEWS!!! God LOVES you SO MUCH... and ...IF... [condition] YOU believe, then YOU will be saved torment, however... if you do NOT believe, then you will endure further UNENDING torment [or as some UR proponents present -- UNDETERMINED duration of torment]  ...AFTER you are done with THIS LIFE's torment.   :mshock: :rolleye:

:omg:  There are 2 things REALLY wrong with this proposition, which [some UR and ALL ET] "Christianity" brings to the WORLD that GOD so [ETERNALLY] LOVES... 

(1) this message is based upon an individual's observation which is potentially INCORRECT, and

(2) it is delivering OTHER than just, "GOOD NEWS", so introducing it as "GOOD NEWS" is a lie... for torment in ANY duration, is NEVER "GOOD NEWS"...

Let me ask you a question... If GOD is IMPARTIAL to any person (10 verses say He IS)... then He EQUALLY treats each person.  So if YOU do not have to endure TORMENT outside of THIS LIFE... how does God maintain that "IMPARTIALITY", by TORMENTING others outside of THIS LIFE?

YOU are not the cause of YOUR CONVERSION -- John 6:44 -- John 14:6 -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- GOD added you to "His roster", the church -- [1 Tim 2:6/in DUE TIME] -- Acts 2:47

As He "added" you, were you TORMENTED?  And if HE "added" you by HIS DOING, without TORMENT, how does He remain IMPARTIAL, by "adding" others VIA TORMENT?  :mshock:

Quote from: lomarah on December 12, 2009, 09:54:45 PMOf course, neither of us can be 100% sure, we are both just guessing.

You are welcome to percieve the GOSPEL as you do... No offense intended dear one, but ...IMO, you erringly percieve the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- and thusly bring a message to others, which is NOT GOOD news... for it contains SORROW for MANY.  So sorry, but SORROW is NOT GOOD NEWS... :mnah:

YOU can only speak for yourself lomarah... by your own admission, you are "GUESSING" that your "belief" is "on-point"...

Unlike yourself, I am NOT "GUESSING"... with Scriptural proof ...I am confidently, AND WITH REASON, explaining the TRUTH of the GOSPEL of PEACE... Which is COMPLETELY DEVOID of BAD NEWS... (NO FEAR, or TORMENT arising FROM it)

The GOSPEL (euaggelizo) of PEACE, is NOT a "FORKED TONGUE" message (containing a mixture of GOOD & BAD news)... It is EXCLUSIVELY --- GOOD NEWS [euaggelizo=GLAD/GOOD news]!

Quote from: lomarah on December 12, 2009, 09:54:45 PMSo I guess we'll see who's right on the other side.  :happygrin:  :cloud9:

Again, you are found "guessing"...  :sigh:  Is THAT the way the followers of CHRIST are to proceed?  Telling others, that they THINK that JESUS is the Savior?  Hoping they have "guessed" correctly?  Is that how the Apostles proceeded, lomarah?  Or did they IN CONFIDENCE, deliver the TRUTH of the LOVE of GOD for the WORLD?  Which IS, the GOSPEL!  :dontknow:

As I see it, and again, no offense is intended toward you or anyone else...

The only ones who are "guessing"... are those who have:

(1) Not LIVED long enough to KNOW what LOVE IS and what LOVE DOES...
(2) In that "LIVING", have NOT devoted themselves to a diligent search of the WORD, and compared the teachings of the WORD concerning LOVE, to the presence of LOVE in their own LIFE EXPERIENCE.
(3) Are proceeding according to their own thinking and thereby "GUESSING", instead of founding EVERY POINT of that "thinking" upon the WORD

In this answer, I certainly meant no harm or offense to you or anyone else.   :grouppray:

We are approaching the conclusion of TIME... as CHRIST noted, we do not know the day or hour, but the SEASON of the END, is seen described by Him...

It is time the BELIEVERS of the GOSPEL, ceased "GUESSING" and began confessing the TRUTH in the SURETY of the ("KNOWING" not "GUESSING") EXPERIENCE of the LOVE of CHRIST, which PASSES "KNOWLEDGE" -- Eph 3:19

CHRIST noted in parable -- Luke 18:8 -- that upon His RETURN, that FAITH would be literally INVISIBLE... yet there are almost 3 BILLION "Christians" on this planet!  How could such a number, possibly be INVISIBLE???

Glad you asked...  :laughing7: ...It cannot!  :mshock:

The MESSAGE that "Christianity" delivers to the World that GOD SO LOVES, ...is FALSE, SELFISH and INCONFIDENTLY FEARFUL... 

It brings PARTIALITY (anti) FEAR (anti) TORMENT (anti) GUESSING (anti), ...instead of the JOYFUL, UNCONDITIONAL, UNEARNED, and COMPLETELY IMPARTIAL LOVE of CHRIST which PASSES KNOWLEDGE -- in bearing TRUTH in its PURETY, which is NOT centered IN SELF (I'm saved, YOU can be too), rather is an ANNOUNCEMENT that ALL are the precious CHILDREN of the Most High, and that the price of their indescretions in THIS LIFE, has been FULLY PAID!

If we would bring this TRUTH to the World... then GOD will "add" to His roster, as we do so... but as we bring "news" (a message) which is DIVIDED between GOOD and BAD... that negates PEACE & LOVE, by superimposing in their place, FEAR & TORMENT to come... then we thereby NEGATE the TRUTH by those FALSE TRADITIONAL teachings, which make the TRUTH of NONE EFFECT -- Matt 15:6 -- Mark 7:13 --

How MANY are teaching the GOSPEL of PEACE?  ...NOT MANY... :pitiful: 

The "MANY" are busy teaching otherwise -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5-12  :sigh:

You was right willie, I remember Jesus said when he come back, will he find much faith? None. am I right on this?

willieH: Hi IceDash... :hithere:

Quote from: IceDash on December 13, 2009, 11:13:00 AM
You was right willie, I remember Jesus said when he come back, will he find much faith? None. am I right on this?

I do not think He meant none, but pretty darn close to it!  As His WORDS were phrased in such a way that if FAITH was on the Earth... that it certainly will NOT appear as prevalent!  Certainly not approaching HALF the planets population!

Luke 18:8 --  nevertheless... when the Son of man returns, shall He find FAITH on the EARTH?

Raising such a question shows that FAITH, if indeed it is present when He returns, it will most certainly be much LESS visible -- than 3 Billion strong! (estimated number of people that claim to BELIEVE in CHRIST today)

This is WHY He said that MANY would decieve MANY... and that MANY would call him LORD, and in fact be found in INIQUITY...

The varying sects of Chrisitianity propose that their section is the remnant which teaches the TRUTH... and yet argue against the principles of Divine LOVE which never change...  I spend many years in membership and affiliation with several of these denominations and the hypocrisy within them is just pitiful...

Each one of them, SELFISHLY claims Salvation for themselves... and each one is willing to condemn the others to FIRE... be it ET, Annhilation, or an Undetermined period... FAILING miserably to bring GOOD NEWS... only claiming their observations of the WORD of God as GOOD, not the message itself.  Assured that THEY (for NO REASON), shall be spared FIRE, but others shall NOT!

This is WHY, I do not preach ANY BAD NEWS...  Even brothers and sisters which KNOW the TRUTH of UR, defile in part, the GOSPEL of PEACE... are still willing to bring a message which "burns" the rest as [they claim] is necessary... :rolleye:

Also... the word FEW is often used relative to those which shall come to  KNOW the TRUTH of the Kingdom of Heaven... :nod:

I went to a hockey game last night, and there were 7000 people @ the game, this number compared to 1 million (which is a thousand thousands) is of course, miniscule,  ...and I can tell you, that the crowd at the game was certainly was NOT a FEW!  However... if only ONE PERSON in that crowd actually believed in TRUTH, the number BELIEVING "TRUTH" would certainly illustrate my point:

(These numbers are just an illustration) --- What JESUS was saying, is that if He returned today, with the Earth's population at almost 7 Billion people, which is 7000 million... that 1 person in every 7000 (1 million actually having FAITH in the TRUTH -- WORLDWIDE) could be called FEW by comparison to the other 6999 [million] that do NOT believe in TRUTH...  Do you see what I mean?

I hope so...  :cloud9:

My point is, if you wish to be a bearer of GOOD NEWS... then you cannot involve within your message -- BAD NEWS... mixing the 2 is hypocrisy as the Apostle James noted:  James 3:6-13

There was NO INSTRUCTION by CHRIST to bring WARNINGS (hell, lake of fire, annhilation, etc)... rather, to bring GOOD NEWS...

And in the INSTRUCTION to bring GOOD NEWS... He noted that JUDGMENT shall come against those who do not HEAR it...

JUDGMENT is NOW as HE stated -- John 12:31 -- and the WRATH of God in JUDGMENT ...IS... revealed (not WILL BE) -- Rom 1:18 -- and the "FIERY trials" are NOW -- Rev 3:18 -- 1 Pet 3:6-13 -- 1 Pet 4:12 -- The books (of our lives are open) and the FIERY trials and JUDGMENT OF THEM, are NOW...  :HeartThrob: (you REAP -- what you SOW)

Hey willieH, I have much to say in response but do not have the time right now. I will respond in depth as soon as I get the time! I will respond quickly now: basically whether you call it reasoning or guessing, it's all the same. Every "Christian" gets their beliefs from their own interpretation of the Bible. You are no different. Saying that you know for sure that there is nothing else after this life but heaven for everyone is extremely presumptuous, especially seeing as there are many verses that would seem to state otherwise. In order to be a part of the kingdom of heaven mustn't a person be made righteous? Wouldn't the kingdom of heaven be more like hell if every murderer, adulterer and rapist were apart of it? Does it make reasonable sense to you that citizens of the kingdom of heaven would take part in these things? Yes, Jesus paid for their sins. That doesn't mean they won't continue to do them. What I am saying is, if a person is not made righteous on this earth then wouldn't it make sense for them to go through whatever they need to go through in order to make them righteous? (AKA the lake of fire...)

Quote from: lomarah on December 14, 2009, 01:13:02 AM
In order to be a part of the kingdom of heaven mustn't a person be made righteous? Wouldn't the kingdom of heaven be more like hell if every murderer, adulterer and rapist were apart of it? Does it make reasonable sense to you that citizens of the kingdom of heaven would take part in these things? Yes, Jesus paid for their sins. That doesn't mean they won't continue to do them. What I am saying is, if a person is not made righteous on this earth then wouldn't it make sense for them to go through whatever they need to go through in order to make them righteous? (AKA the lake of fire...)

:thumbsup:  wood, hay, stubble burned...bringing to a place of repentance, every knee bow, every tongue confess Jesus as Master - in the Holy Spirit

I'm very thankful for this place tentmaker where we can search and be challenged to think, pray and come up with our own Scripture passages that we've found.  There are other threads, a very long older one on the "lake of fire' I read as we all shared.  I don't have any clear certainty on the identity of the lake of fire, the "amen," if you want to call it that. 

One thing I noticed is there is no place that it says people are in it.  An example is AV says, "And 2532 whosoever 1536 was 2147 0 not 3756 found 2147 written 1125 in 1722 the book 976 of life 2222 was cast 906 into 1519 the lake 3041 of fire 4442." (Rev 20:15)

Strongs #1536 ei tis Thayer's has if whether
The usage for AV — if any man 35, if any 19, if a man 8, if any thing 6, if ought 3, whosoever 2, misc 6

Most contemporary versions have:  "if," as does the exacting Concordant Literal

The point is, that "if" is never answered.  Perhaps the angels response upon being sent out was to write up any who had not been already written in the book of life.

Try to find any statement that says people actually go into the lake of fire.  I know it's a fine point, but I don't find any.

Here's another: 
Rv 14:10-11 (AV)...
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In English it only has "the smoke...ascendeth up for ever and ever," NOT the torment for ever and ever.  In Greek the smoke ascends for the last two ages or eons.  It is for "the eons of the eons," not for ever and ever (to add "and ever" to "forever" is redundant.)  It should be noticed this is not said to be the lake of fire, only that the same substance of the lake, "fire and brimstone," is what it is that torments them.  This is also only a select few out of all peoples that have ever lived.  It is in English "torment" which is mental, not "torture" which is physical.  That it is day and night means it could be for a minute at noon and a minute at midnight which would fulfill these words.  Also, "the earth and all the works therein" shall be consumed by an intense heat, so day and night are not forever.  There is more, but you get the point.

If you search out some of the writings on the tentmaker site you'll get answers for sure.

I agree James, I believe it's spiritual, but still an occurrence (that at least temporarily will be "unpleasant") while the gates of the city are open day and night and the kings of the earth are bringing their treasures into it...

From Revelation 21 and 22

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
its gates will never be closed;
and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

 :cloud9: This may sound off the wall, but I think it's both now and later, but that they (now and later) are the same. It's always NOW in the spirit. Our flesh is the only thing keeping us from perceiving the state of whatever bondage our soul is in, that the lake of fire is to deal with.

In other words, if our spiritual eyes were open right now, it would be no different than if we left the body behind in death. There is nothing in the death of the body that changes the condition of bondages of the soul. The spirit returns to the One that sent it, but the soul is another matter. My  :2c: Blessings...

willieH: Hi lomarah... :hithere:

Thanks for your answer... are you willing to learn?  :Chinscratch:  Hope so...  :cloud9:

Quote from: lomarah on December 14, 2009, 01:13:02 AM
Hey willieH, I have much to say in response but do not have the time right now. I will respond in depth as soon as I get the time! I will respond quickly now: basically whether you call it reasoning or guessing, it's all the same. Every "Christian" gets their beliefs from their own interpretation of the Bible. You are no different. Saying that you know for sure that there is nothing else after this life but heaven for everyone is extremely presumptuous,

I said NO SUCH THING as you PRESUMPTUOUSLY note above:  "there is nothing else after this life but heaven for everyone"...

Had I SAID this, you would have QUOTED it, ...however I did NOT say this, and thusly you were unable to QUOTE me as saying it... :pitiful:  They remain your words, not mine.

What I have said in this thread, is that THIS LIFE is the LOF... and the JUDGMENT is NOW... I also noted that REASON does not follow traditional interpretation of the WORD...

CHRIST did not mention ANYTHING about TORMENT that follows THIS LIFE (nor did He WARN anyone of "HELL or ANNHILATION or the LOF" -- the twisted UNPEACEFUL, UNLOVING, PARTIAL and SELF Oriented doctrines of DEVILS, er, ...I mean the "church")...

These (LOF/future TORMENT for sinners, other than yourself) are deductions of YOURS -- of HIS WORDS which do not state any such thing...

Again, you are more than welcome to plug your ears to what I say, and remain where you are, no sweat off my back!  :dontknow:

One thing that I DO agree with you is... we SHALL see in the end, which of us is preaching the TRUTH...

You are also welcome to naming YOURSELF as "guessing" if you like lomarah... But do not label me with such inconfidence.  I have made NO ADMISSION of "guessing", (neither shall I) -- YOU HAVE!

I diligently have studied the WORD... and no "guessing" is necessary for me.  You are welcome to ignore teaching... MANY will do so... and MANY shall find SHAME in their IGNORANCE -- Rev 3:18

Where is your answer to these words of mine, lomarah:

Quote from: willieH on December 13, 2009, 01:34:36 AMThe GOSPEL is a message of PEACE and GLAD tidings (tidings=CHEERFUL ANNOUNCEMENT --to be preached to ALL MEN) -- Rom 10:15 -- What is "CHEERFUL" about MORE suffering, lomarah?  What is "PEACEFUL" about MORE suffering?  :dontknow:

:JCThink:

Quote from: lomarah on December 14, 2009, 01:13:02 AMespecially seeing as there are many verses that would seem to state otherwise.

The KEYWORD in your statement is "SEEM" -- which admits unsurety and  more "GUESSING" on your part...  :dontknow:

These verses in question, only state "otherwise" to those who have yet to have SPIRITUAL revelation OF THEM, be patient, and diligent, and you shall see in time, that these which you THINK to portray FUTURE torment, are actually speaking of NOW...  CHRIST plainly noted that JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD [which is in THIS LIFE] is NOW -- John 12:31 -- but do the readers of these WORDS believe them?  Of course they do not...  :sigh:

You will also find that clinging to your present "GOOD NEWS/BAD NEWS" teachings will bring sorrow and shame upon you.  For if you present ANY BAD NEWS within the "guise" of a "GOOD NEWS" presentation, the NEWS in part, ceases to be "GOOD", and the presentation becomes a FALSEHOOD... For it MISREPRESENTS the "news" as being GOOD NEWS... while in part it is BAD NEWS.

EXAMPLES:

(1)  If a reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York, and of the 350 passengers & crew, ONE SURVIVED!"  Will you jump for JOY at this report lomarah?  Will you give it your "good news seal of approval"?  Or is it in truth TRAGICALLY, BAD NEWS for ALL but ONE?...  THIS is a fictional parallel to your presentation of "GOOD NEWS"

(2)  if the reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York and ALL 350 passengers & crew, SURVIVED!"  Now a striking difference is seen here.  This is GREAT and WONDERFUL NEWS!  And THIS is a fictional parallel to my presentation of GOOD NEWS"

Honestly, which of the 2 is really "GOOD NEWS", lomarah?  :declare: :Chinscratch:

The words translated "GOSPEL" in the Greek are EUAGGELIZO -- #G2097 and EUAGGELION -- #G2098 -- neither of these words by definition, portray other than exclusively -- GOOD NEWS... Look'em up lomarah... see if you can find your "TORMENT" message within their definitions. :rolleye:

I was pretty diligent and detailed in naming traditional CHURCH observations of "GOD the bully" (tormenting His beloved sons in this life, then more in the next) as quite inaccurate UNPEACEFUL, UNLOVING, and CERTAINLY NOT -- "GOOD NEWS"... you have failed to refute any of my post with your IN GENERAL, and scripturally devoid answer.  :dontknow:

Quote from: lomarah on December 14, 2009, 01:13:02 AMIn order to be a part of the kingdom of heaven mustn't a person be made righteous?

Absolutely!!! ...and ALL, ...SHALL be "MADE RIGHTEOUS" -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM, all DIE... so --- IN CHRIST --- shall ALL be made alive.  

Didya get that lomarah?  IN CHRIST -- that which is IN CHRIST -- which is ALL -- is "MADE RIGHTEOUS"!  For anything IN CHRIST (which is ALL according to 1 Cor 15:22) is thereby, "MADE" RIGHTEOUS!!

No man accomplishes this of their own doing!  Rather, it is the DOING of the Savior... and the Savior is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS -- Acts 10:34 -- Rom 2:11 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Job 34:19 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- Pro 28:21 -- Col 3:25 -- Mark 12:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- doya think GOD is trying to make a point by REPEATING this TEN TIMES in the Scriptures?  :mshock:

As I said, GOD is IMPARTIAL... If YOU were "made righteous" by the doing of GOD, without FIRE and TORMENT... REASON demands that ALL others to whom He states Himself IMPARTIAL, are due the VERY SAME treatment and process, as were YOU...  :dontknow:

Quote from: lomarah on December 14, 2009, 01:13:02 AMWouldn't the kingdom of heaven be more like hell if every murderer, adulterer and rapist were apart of it?

I say "on the CONTRARY"!  That GOD is able to convert the LARGEST of MISBEHAVIORS of men, only shows the MAJESTY and the DEPTH of His LOVE and POWER!!!

In saying the above, you set yourself a JUDGE of others... "Let him WITHOUT SIN, cast the first stone" ...do you remember these words, stoneholder... er... I mean, lomarah?

TWO questions:

(1)  Who do you compare the murderer to lomarah?  CHRIST or yourself?  

(2)  Who do you compare yourself to lomarah? CHRIST or the murderer?

If you have NOT SINNED in any way... then you would have the right to JUDGE a murderer... but since YOU are just AS IN NEED of CHRIST as the one you JUDGE... then you have little to say of (the ultimate, ETERNAL and RIGHTEOUS judgment of) his crime... and he must needs be left to LOVE to JUDGE him, NOT another "sinner" such as yourself (or ME for that matter!)... :pitiful:

Quote from: lomarah on December 14, 2009, 01:13:02 AMDoes it make reasonable sense to you that citizens of the kingdom of heaven would take part in these things?

You are yet to be redeemed lomarah... and so your vision is clouded somewhat by your own self deceptions... The Apostle John said -- 1 John 1:8 -- if we SAY we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is not IN US...

So if YOU say this thinking yourself to be a "citizen" of the Kingdom of Heaven... and Scripture notes that we DECIEVE ourselves if we SAY we have NO SIN -- then, are you not seen DECIEVING yourself?  Why should YOU a SINNER be considered a citizen of Heaven, and another who is also a sinner (you consider worse than yourself), NOT?  

In deducing by your observation (of another sinner, who is partaking of SIN in a way that you percieve MORE distasteful than that which YOU partake), you thereby make yourself a hypocrite... for even though your SIN appears to YOU to be lesser in your eyes, ...YOUR SIN was found to be ESTABLISHED within the NAILS that crucified CHRIST, as well as the murderer's...  :dontknow:  

So you and I in fact, PARTNERED with the murderer, to put the Savior to death did we not?  Therefore, why should his "pardon" which is ACCOMPLISHED and DECIDED by GOD (who is IMPARTIAL) come at any greater cost to him, than did, ours?  :mshock:

Above, you call for JUDGMENT of the "BLACK SIN" of the murderer to be JUDGED by FIRE, and of course, ...your "little WHITE SINS" to be ignored because they, in your decieving estimation of yourself, are NOT as "bad" as he whom you JUDGE...   :faint:

The TRUE citizens of heaven do not JUDGE, for they are commanded by CHRIST to abstain from it -- Matt 7:1 -- instead, they bring GOOD NEWS to the downtrodden of this life, NEWS that informs them that their SINS have been TAKEN AWAY -- John 1:29 -- and that they are UNCONDITIONALLY LOVED, by the ONLY ONE who has the RIGHT to JUDGE them -- John 8:10-11  -- remember CHRIST is IMPARTIAL to ALL -- If He had the chance to pass JUDGMENT upon one (woman in adultery) and He did NOT --- and Scripture notes that He remains the SAME -- Heb 13:8 -- YESTERDAY (to the adulterous woman) TODAY (to you and I) and FOREVER (to all who are walk the earth within the course of time)...  :dontknow:

Quote from: lomarah on December 14, 2009, 01:13:02 AMYes, Jesus paid for their sins. That doesn't mean they won't continue to do them. What I am saying is, if a person is not made righteous on this earth then wouldn't it make sense for them to go through whatever they need to go through in order to make them righteous? (AKA the lake of fire...)

ALL are UNRIGHTEOUS lomarah -- Rom 3:10 -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- and ALL are partakers of the 2nd death... which IS the LAKE OF FIRE...

Read the list -- Rev 21:8 -- do you find yourself on it?  If you do, then you have YOUR part of the Lake of FIRE... which has been my POINT all along... We are ALL IN IT NOW!!!  

That list covers everyone!!  UNBELIEF is listed as a "reason" to elect us to the LOF, and it is GOD which concludes EVERYONE in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- keep studying kid... if you do with ALL your might, and diligence, then your GUESSING will cease... and you shall behold the WORD that passes KNOWLEDGE -- Eph 3:19

Quote from: willieH on December 13, 2009, 01:34:36 AMAs He "added" you, were you TORMENTED?  And if HE "added" you by HIS DOING, without TORMENT, how does He remain IMPARTIAL, by "adding" others VIA TORMENT?  :mshock:

Quote from: willieH on December 13, 2009, 01:34:36 AMLet me ask you a question... If GOD is IMPARTIAL to any person (10 verses say He IS)... then He EQUALLY treats each person.  So if YOU do not have to endure TORMENT outside of THIS LIFE... how does God maintain that "IMPARTIALITY", by TORMENTING others outside of THIS LIFE?

:Peace:

Wow, good stuff willieH!  I will continue studying the scriptures you have referenced, and continue studying the idea of "the lake of fire is now"...

Quoteonly unbelievers are resurrected at this Great White Throne Judgement

Why do you say that ?........ the Bible does not sat that ! ......... only man says that  :Chinscratch:

Jesus said that there will be believers and unbelievers resurrected together

For that matter all are resurrected to the GWT and it is immediately following their natural death and not a thousand years later

Remember it is not just that a day is a thousand years but that a thousand years (something that no man has lived to see) is as a day!!!........ (a different dispensation)

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: lomarah on December 10, 2009, 04:28:30 PM
We can guess all we want but when it comes right down to it I think there are some things we may never know until they actually come about. What I try to do is just trust God with it knowing that He is Good and is Love and that He will always act in goodness and love.

:thinking: :dunno2:

Sometimes I get frustrated when I cant piece it all together.In the end, what I do is exactly what you mentioned.

There sure seems to be a lot of opinions. :wacko2: :megashock:

But I don't think eternal hell/torment believers know any better  :tongue:

UGGGHHHHHHHH I am so annoyed, I had started writing a long reply and somehow I ended up closing out internet explorer...   :Oops: :grave:

Quote from: ibelongtoyoujesus on December 14, 2009, 10:14:45 PM
There sure seems to be a lot of opinions. :wacko2: :megashock:

What you can do is just believe what the Bible teaches however to be able to take that at face value one has to be cleansed of all the traditions of man that they have been taught for so long......... that takes quite a bit of scrubbing

We are all born into death (Yea we walk through the valley of death) and each man is appointed a time to die.......... that is our first death from beginning to end

Those who are resurrected in this life will do the "second death" while they still live in this body and in this life having gone from being "dead to God" yet alive unto the world but still in the valley having then become as the "lilies of the valley" that Jesus tends to (Lillies have 6 petals that is the number of man and they are white having already been clothed in white by Jesus)............already being resurrected and sitting in heavenly places with Him that happens before they reach their 'appointed time to die". (physical death)

Peter died this "second death" when he glorified God and then lived the rest of his life doing the works of God until the day that he died that was already appointed to him before he died his second death.

Regarding the appointed time to die is just before that same individuals "judgement"........ The author of Hebrews tells is that

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


Personally I have a more sure word of prophecy then those who just have "their opinions" regarding this whole event having already died once in a car accident only to return to life some 20 minutes or so later........... in between that time I saw what all will see when they too die......... interesting point is that it was different from what I was taught as a child having been taught like you that only unbelievers go to the GWT......... if you like I can PM the experience to you as I have it written out in my doc folder

You may do the second death in  this life but the LOF is reserved for those who have not yet died their "second death" by the time that they experience their "appointed time to die" that is the end of life as most know it to be........ IMO most will expirance at least some time in the LOF but foir sure it will only be those who live in Christ now in this life on the same level that the apostles did that will be excused from any "afterlife fire"

Hell is the fire that we are in now by our works and/or the works of those around us.... David spoke of it as where we "rest" if we have like all others have rested in our own works rather than those of God

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Blessings

Doug

Okay here I go again...

Quoteare you willing to learn?

Yes I am! I have much to learn. Unfortunately unlike you I do not know it all.  :wink1:

True, you did not say that there is nothing but heaven after death for everyone. I deduced that since you don't believe there is hell or punishment or lake of fire after death then you must believe there is heaven for everyone. If you don't believe that, what exactly do you believe about life after death?

QuoteThese (LOF/future TORMENT for sinners, other than yourself) are deductions of YOURS -- of HIS WORDS which do not state any such thing...

First of all I never said that I was not a sinner or that I would not take part in the lake of fire. Everyone will be salted with fire, including me. If the fire I go through before I die does not make me righteous then I will take part in the fire after death. (I should probably make it clear that I am not talking about literal fire here, but the spiritual fire of God that makes one righteous.) Secondly, Jesus certainly did speak of the Lake of Fire and torment for sinners: Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

If you believe that this is in the here and now ONLY, then that is your opinion. I completely disagree.

QuoteAgain, you are more than welcome to plug your ears to what I say, and remain where you are, no sweat off my back! 

I am not plugging my ears, I hear you loud and clear! I just disagree with you.

QuoteWhere is your answer to these words of mine, lomarah:

Quote from: willieH on December 12, 2009, 06:34:36 PM
The GOSPEL is a message of PEACE and GLAD tidings (tidings=CHEERFUL ANNOUNCEMENT --to be preached to ALL MEN) -- Rom 10:15 -- What is "CHEERFUL" about MORE suffering, lomarah?  What is "PEACEFUL" about MORE suffering? 

Yes, the gospel is awesome news! We will all be saved from sin through Jesus! Here is the thing: those who remain in sin are not at peace. They are currently suffering though they likely do not even realize to what extent. So to answer your question, there is nothing peaceful about more suffering, nothing at all. Which is why sinners need to be saved from sin and made righteous, thus the lake of fire.

Quote(1)  If a reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York, and of the 350 passengers & crew, ONE SURVIVED!"  Will you jump for JOY at this report lomarah?  Will you give it your "good news seal of approval"?  Or is it in truth TRAGICALLY, BAD NEWS for ALL but ONE?...  THIS is a fictional parallel to your presentation of "GOOD NEWS"

(2)  if the reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York and ALL 350 passengers & crew, SURVIVED!"  Now a striking difference is seen here.  This is GREAT and WONDERFUL NEWS!  And THIS is a fictional parallel to my presentation of GOOD NEWS"

Honestly, which of the 2 is really "GOOD NEWS", lomarah?

Well neither of the 2 are good news. But certainly the second is better than the first.  :laughing7:
I am not sure how this analogy relates to what I believe... Like you I am convinced that Christ will save everyone on the "plane"...
I think what is differing in our views is our concept of salvation. I am assuming from your posts that you understand salvation as being released from the bondages of physical and mental suffering and pain, including death and sorrow. Am I correct?
I understand salvation as being saved from sin and being made righteous, as well as being freed from all of the above. I am speaking of being made righteous in a literal sense here. Not the whole "churchianity" definition where God looks at us and sees us as righteous because of Jesus even though in reality we are still sinning like the dickens. I'm talking being made pure and HOLY, as He is holy.

QuoteIN CHRIST -- that which is IN CHRIST -- which is ALL -- is "MADE RIGHTEOUS"!  For anything IN CHRIST (which is ALL according to 1 Cor 15:22) is thereby, "MADE" RIGHTEOUS!!

1 Corinthians says that all SHALL BE made righteous. Not that all are now in Christ and are currently made righteous. Take a look at the news headlines. Obviously we are not all righteous.

QuoteNo man accomplishes this of their own doing!  Rather, it is the DOING of the Savior... and the Savior is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS

It is true that God works in us to make us righteous. However there are also many, many verses that talk about what we need to do in order to cooperate with God in this process: Paul said, "Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 Unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3. (Repentance requires effort on your part.) "If any man desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Luke 9:23 "I have not found your works perfect before God." Rev 3:2-3. If you need me to I can give you some more, but you seem to be a person who knows your Bible so I'm sure you know where to find them.  :cloud9:

QuoteYou are yet to be redeemed lomarah... and so your vision is clouded somewhat by your own self deceptions... The Apostle John said -- 1 John 1:8 -- if we SAY we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is not IN US...

I actually agree with you when you say I am not yet redeemed. I never ever said that I have no sin in my life right now. I am looking forward to the day when I will be sin free!

QuoteThat GOD is able to convert the LARGEST of MISBEHAVIORS of men, only shows the MAJESTY and the DEPTH of His LOVE and POWER!!!

YES EXACTLY! But until they are converted they are still sinners! I am quite confused as to what you actually believe... It seems that you think that all people will automatically be converted and made righteous when they die?

QuoteIn saying the above, you set yourself a JUDGE of others... "Let him WITHOUT SIN, cast the first stone" ...do you remember these words, stoneholder... er... I mean, lomarah?

I don't understand how that is judging? Saying that having murderers, etc in heaven would make it hell is not judging, it is being absolutely truthful! You seem to be misunderstanding me, I have never, ever claimed that I am NOT a sinner, that I am NOT a murderer, adulterer, liar and every other detestable thing there is. What I am saying is until I am redeemed completely of all of my sin I will NOT BE ABLE TO BE A PART OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

QuoteAbove, you call for JUDGMENT of the "BLACK SIN" of the murderer to be JUDGED by FIRE, and of course, ...your "little WHITE SINS" to be ignored because they, in your decieving estimation of yourself, are NOT as "bad" as he whom you JUDGE...   

:omg: WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS FROM????!!!!???? You don't know me from a hole in the ground, I could have murdered dozens of people! Here's your own advice, I highly suggest you take it:

QuoteHad I SAID this, you would have QUOTED it, ...however I did NOT say this, and thusly you were unable to QUOTE me as saying it...   They remain your words, not mine.

QuoteThe TRUE citizens of heaven do not JUDGE, for they are commanded by CHRIST to abstain from it -- Matt 7:1 -- instead, they bring GOOD NEWS to the downtrodden of this life, NEWS that informs them that their SINS have been TAKEN AWAY -- John 1:29 -- and that they are UNCONDITIONALLY LOVED, by the ONLY ONE who has the RIGHT to JUDGE them -- John 8:10-11  -- remember CHRIST is IMPARTIAL to ALL -- If He had the chance to pass JUDGMENT upon one (woman in adultery) and He did NOT --- and Scripture notes that He remains the SAME -- Heb 13:8 -- YESTERDAY (to the adulterous woman) TODAY (to you and I) and FOREVER (to all who are walk the earth within the course of time)...

Nope he didn't judge that woman, but he certainly had some nasty words to say to the righteous pharisees and hypocrites and also to the churches in Revelation.

QuoteRead the list -- Rev 21:8 -- do you find yourself on it?  If you do, then you have YOUR part of the Lake of FIRE...

As I stated before, yes I am certainly on the list and will certainly take part in the lake of fire.

QuoteALL are UNRIGHTEOUS lomarah -- Rom 3:10 -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- and ALL are partakers of the 2nd death... which IS the LAKE OF FIRE...

That is blatant heresy. Sorry to be so blunt but here are a couple of verses to prove my point: Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

To answer your last two questions:

QuoteAs He "added" you, were you TORMENTED?  And if HE "added" you by HIS DOING, without TORMENT, how does He remain IMPARTIAL, by "adding" others VIA TORMENT? 

I'm not sure what you mean by "added"... If you mean added me to the list of believers I can tell you that I certainly WAS tormented and became a believer because of it. And no, I do not consider Him to be partial because of it.

QuoteLet me ask you a question... If GOD is IMPARTIAL to any person (10 verses say He IS)... then He EQUALLY treats each person.  So if YOU do not have to endure TORMENT outside of THIS LIFE... how does God maintain that "IMPARTIALITY", by TORMENTING others outside of THIS LIFE?

I think you are misunderstanding what the impartiality of God is. He is impartial because He loves all the same and died for all people. It does not mean He will not let some go through rougher times than others. Everyone will go through the fire that they need to in order to become righteous. He made each one of us and only He knows what each one of us needs and when.

Phew! That was longwinded.

Quote from: Livelystone on December 14, 2009, 11:11:07 PM

Quote from: ibelongtoyoujesus on December 14, 2009, 10:14:45 PM
There sure seems to be a lot of opinions. :wacko2: :megashock:

What you can do is just believe what the Bible teaches however to be able to take that at face value one has to be cleansed of all the traditions of man that they have been taught for so long......... that takes quite a bit of scrubbing

We are all born into death (Yea we walk through the valley of death) and each man is appointed a time to die.......... that is our first death from beginning to end

Those who are resurrected in this life will do the "second death" while they still live in this body and in this life having gone from being "dead to God" yet alive unto the world but still in the valley having then become as the "lilies of the valley" that Jesus tends to (Lillies have 6 petals that is the number of man and they are white having already been clothed in white by Jesus)............already being resurrected and sitting in heavenly places with Him that happens before they reach their 'appointed time to die". (physical death)

Peter died this "second death" when he glorified God and then lived the rest of his life doing the works of God until the day that he died that was already appointed to him before he died his second death.

Regarding the appointed time to die is just before that same individuals "judgement"........ The author of Hebrews tells is that

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


Personally I have a more sure word of prophecy then those who just have "their opinions" regarding this whole event having already died once in a car accident only to return to life some 20 minutes or so later........... in between that time I saw what all will see when they too die......... interesting point is that it was different from what I was taught as a child having been taught like you that only unbelievers go to the GWT......... if you like I can PM the experience to you as I have it written out in my doc folder

You may do the second death in  this life but the LOF is reserved for those who have not yet died their "second death" by the time that they experience their "appointed time to die" that is the end of life as most know it to be........ IMO most will expirance at least some time in the LOF but foir sure it will only be those who live in Christ now in this life on the same level that the apostles did that will be excused from any "afterlife fire"

Hell is the fire that we are in now by our works and/or the works of those around us.... David spoke of it as where we "rest" if we have like all others have rested in our own works rather than those of God

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Blessings

Doug

Wow I would love to hear about your experience!

Good post, I see things very similarly, lomarah, though I believe there's much we all still have to learn - glass darkly... :thumbsup:

Lomarah,

You shared this with Willie:

That is blatant heresy. Sorry to be so blunt but here are a couple of verses to prove my point: Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I would like to share with you why I believe that we indeed will go through the 2nd death, and that these verses show that we have to. We have a physical example of this which explains this spiritual saying of Christ. Notice in Daniel chapter 3, the following:

Dan 3:25  He answered and said, "But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods."
Dan 3:26  Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the door of the burning fiery furnace; he declared, "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come here!" Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego came out from the fire.
Dan 3:27  And the satraps, the prefects, the governors, and the king's counselors gathered together and saw that the fire had not had any power over the bodies of those men. The hair of their heads was not singed, their cloaks were not harmed, and no smell of fire had come upon them.

As you can see, the same two things are mentioned here with regard to the fire they were in. The same is true with the lake of fire, the 2nd death. Everyone goes through it, but not everyone gets hurt by it. It does not have power over everyone.

Hope that clarifies.

Ron

Ron, I see it as we either "die" now, or we "die" later.  I'm considering that the Lake of Fire will bring the previously unrepentant to the place of repentance and confession;  while those saved in this lifetime will still have some "waste" burned away (wood, hay, stubble) yet not hurt by it, as the applied blood of Jesus has taken care of the death issue for the redeemed.  Not firm on that, just sort of what I'm thinking right now.   :2c:

Quote from: jabcat on December 15, 2009, 01:09:52 AM
Good post, I see things very similarly, lomarah, though I believe there's much we all still have to learn - glass darkly... :thumbsup:

:cloud9: Thanks jabcat! Can't wait to see clearly!  :cloud9:

Thanks for your opinion gregoryfl! I see where you are coming from, however I agree fully with Doug as he stated earlier:

QuoteYou may do the second death in this life but the LOF is reserved for those who have not yet died their "second death" by the time that they experience their "appointed time to die" that is the end of life as most know it to be.

Quote from: gregoryfl on December 15, 2009, 01:10:26 AM
Lomarah,

You shared this with Willie:

That is blatant heresy. Sorry to be so blunt but here are a couple of verses to prove my point: Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I would like to share with you why I believe that we indeed will go through the 2nd death, and that these verses show that we have to. We have a physical example of this which explains this spiritual saying of Christ. Notice in Daniel chapter 3, the following:

Dan 3:25  He answered and said, "But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods."
Dan 3:26  Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the door of the burning fiery furnace; he declared, "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come here!" Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego came out from the fire.
Dan 3:27  And the satraps, the prefects, the governors, and the king's counselors gathered together and saw that the fire had not had any power over the bodies of those men. The hair of their heads was not singed, their cloaks were not harmed, and no smell of fire had come upon them.

As you can see, the same two things are mentioned here with regard to the fire they were in. The same is true with the lake of fire, the 2nd death. Everyone goes through it, but not everyone gets hurt by it. It does not have power over everyone.

Hope that clarifies.

Ron

:goodpost:

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 01:26:02 AM

Quote from: jabcat on December 15, 2009, 01:09:52 AM
Good post, I see things very similarly, lomarah, though I believe there's much we all still have to learn - glass darkly... :thumbsup:

:cloud9: Thanks jabcat! Can't wait to see clearly!  :cloud9:

Thanks for your opinion gregoryfl! I see where you are coming from, however I agree fully with Doug as he stated earlier:

QuoteYou may do the second death in this life but the LOF is reserved for those who have not yet died their "second death" by the time that they experience their "appointed time to die" that is the end of life as most know it to be.

IMO the LOF as it exists now is only a afterlife experience but as a "lake" it consists of many individual drops of fire just as a lake of water has individual drops of water.

Just as Christ is a many membered body so is the LOF but because we do not have any manifested sons at this time until we do it will remain as I said an afterlife purification process........ those who yield readily are not hurt by it just as the three boys spoken of by Ron while in the fire their bonds were burnt off were not hurt........ then on the other hand we see those spoken of by John in Revelation who will seek death but not be able to find it (cannot break free from what their bonds are) so they ask the mountains to fall on them to hide them from God's wrath.

Until we see the manifested sons as individual drops of fire doing God's work here on earth the LOF as remains an afterlife event. So for now we still see those individuals that threw the three boys into the fire as those in the world around who cause us to walk through the fire but who in turn were destroyed themselves for throwing the boys into the fire......... IMO that is also spoken of in the Bible when Babylon who held Israel captive but were then overcome by Cyrus and destroyed.

Same thing with those who have held God's people (us) in bondage to false worship (Babylon) because as we saw when Babylon was captured just the leader(s) died, For sure our old pastors and sunday school teachers will have a much harder time breaking free of the ropes binding them than we did so they probably need a little more time on the coals so to speak

BTW Moses walked into the fire without being hurt and so will others........myself I have always been a little stubborn and some of the purifying has been with a lot of discomfort  :sigh:

just my  :2c:

Blessings

Doug

Makes a lot of sense to me - which may, or may not, be a good thing  :laughing7:.

I always wonder why people take some things in Revelation literally and some things as figurative. For example, a phsical lake of fire, a figurative Harlot, a physical mark of the beast (chip or bar code) and a figurative 10 headed creature. I think if you are taking some things as literal and some figurative you should apply it across the board, otherwise you are interpreting it to suit your own ideas.

I have no idea what the interpretation is myself though  :dontknow:

Quote from: Livelystone on December 15, 2009, 05:37:06 AM

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 01:26:02 AM

Quote from: jabcat on December 15, 2009, 01:09:52 AM
Good post, I see things very similarly, lomarah, though I believe there's much we all still have to learn - glass darkly... :thumbsup:

:cloud9: Thanks jabcat! Can't wait to see clearly!  :cloud9:

Thanks for your opinion gregoryfl! I see where you are coming from, however I agree fully with Doug as he stated earlier:

QuoteYou may do the second death in this life but the LOF is reserved for those who have not yet died their "second death" by the time that they experience their "appointed time to die" that is the end of life as most know it to be.

IMO the LOF as it exists now is only a afterlife experience but as a "lake" it consists of many individual drops of fire just as a lake of water has individual drops of water.

Just as Christ is a many membered body so is the LOF but because we do not have any manifested sons at this time until we do it will remain as I said an afterlife purification process........ those who yield readily are not hurt by it just as the three boys spoken of by Ron while in the fire their bonds were burnt off were not hurt........ then on the other hand we see those spoken of by John in Revelation who will seek death but not be able to find it (cannot break free from what their bonds are) so they ask the mountains to fall on them to hide them from God's wrath.

Until we see the manifested sons as individual drops of fire doing God's work here on earth the LOF as remains an afterlife event. So for now we still see those individuals that threw the three boys into the fire as those in the world around who cause us to walk through the fire but who in turn were destroyed themselves for throwing the boys into the fire......... IMO that is also spoken of in the Bible when Babylon who held Israel captive but were then overcome by Cyrus and destroyed.

Same thing with those who have held God's people (us) in bondage to false worship (Babylon) because as we saw when Babylon was captured just the leader(s) died, For sure our old pastors and sunday school teachers will have a much harder time breaking free of the ropes binding them than we did so they probably need a little more time on the coals so to speak

BTW Moses walked into the fire without being hurt and so will others........myself I have always been a little stubborn and some of the purifying has been with a lot of discomfort  :sigh:

just my  :2c:

Blessings

Doug

:goodpost: I completely agree about the pastors. One man I know pointed out that they are likely the ones to whom Jesus will say, "Depart from me you who work iniquity..." and will likely have a lot of bitterness and anger towards Him because of that since they thought they were expecting a "Well done...".

This is very interesting stuff! What do you mean by manifested sons? Does this mean those who are purified?

Quote from: natcat86 on December 15, 2009, 01:36:43 PM
I always wonder why people take some things in Revelation literally and some things as figurative. For example, a phsical lake of fire, a figurative Harlot, a physical mark of the beast (chip or bar code) and a figurative 10 headed creature. I think if you are taking some things as literal and some figurative you should apply it across the board, otherwise you are interpreting it to suit your own ideas.

I have no idea what the interpretation is myself though  :dontknow:

:cloud9: Personally, I always wonder why the first line is never taken seriously, ie. "The REVELATION of Jesus Christ." :dontknow: Compare with the glory Paul said was getting ready to be revealed in us, and Christ in you, the hope of glory. Blessings....

Quote from: natcat86 on December 15, 2009, 01:36:43 PM
I always wonder why people take some things in Revelation literally and some things as figurative. For example, a phsical lake of fire, a figurative Harlot, a physical mark of the beast (chip or bar code) and a figurative 10 headed creature. I think if you are taking some things as literal and some figurative you should apply it across the board, otherwise you are interpreting it to suit your own ideas.

I have no idea what the interpretation is myself though  :dontknow:

Completely agree!!

   BECAUSE HE IS GOD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH..HIS WORD

   DOES NOT RETURN VOID

   THE UNSEEN [HEAVENLIES] IS REVEALED AND MANIFESTED IN

  THE EARTH


   THERE ARE SPIRITUAL 'SORE'  STATES..AND PHYSICAL

    'SORE' STATES.....JERUSALEM THAT WAS..HER SPIRITUAL

CORRUPTION LED TO HER PHYSICAL CORRUPTION STATE

  THERE ARE SPIRITUAL DEATH STATES..AND PHYSICAL DEATH

STATES...JESUS SHOWED PHYSICAL RESURRECTIONS AS WELL

AS SPIRITUAL RESURRECTIONS IN HIS MINISTRY

   THERE IS GREAT PHYSICAL LAWLESSNESS BEING SHOWN

UPON THE EARTH IN OUR TIME..MANIFESTING THE GREAT

SPIRITUAL LAWLESSNESS AT WORK


  OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN,HALLOWED BE THY NAME

  YOUR KINGDOM COME,YOUR WILL BE DONE


  ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN

    THERE WAS A PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF 'COME OUT OF

  BABYLON" THAT SHOWED ON THE EARTH...THE SPIRITUAL

REALITY OF HIS CALL TO THE SAINTS...

   THERE IS A SPIRITUAL MANIFESTATION OF A NEW HEAVEN

AND NEW EARTH...I EXPECT TO SEE JUST THAT EVIDENCED

IN THE PHYSICAL...NOW THE PROBLEM IS IDENTIFYING THE

PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF IT ON EARTH

  LUKE 4;20   THEN HE ROLLED UP THE SCROLL GAVE IT BACK

TO THE ATTENDANT AND SAT DOWN.[REV 6;14&

2PETER3;10]..AND HE BEGAN TO SAY

TO THEM...TODAY THIS SCRIPTURE IS FULFILLED IN YOUR

HEARING[PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF HEAVENLY

MANIFESTATION] ISAAIH 59;20 THE REDEEMER WILL COME TO

ZION,TO THOSE IN JACOB WHO REPENT OF THEIR

SINS,DECLARES THE LORD . AS FOR ME THIS IS MY COVENANT

WITH THEM,SAYS THE LORD. MY SPIRIT WHO IS ON YOU AND

MY WORDS THAT I HAVE PUT IN YOUR MOUTH, WILL NOT

DEPART FROM YOUR MOUTH OR THE MOUTH OF YOUR

CHILDREN OR FROM THE MOUTHS OF THEIR DESCENDANTS

FROM THIS TIME ON FOREVER MORE

    THESE THINGS PHYSICALLY  MANIFESTED ON EARTH.

  IN THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH..AND WE CAN EXPECT

THE SAME AS HIS DESCENDANTS
 

 :cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!  :thumbsup:

I was just wondering why people interpret somethings as literal and somethings as symbolic in the same book. Just wondering by what authority. Not accusing, just genuinely interested.

 :cloud9: Some things literally happened for their time and season, some things are YET to come (haven't noticed wars stopping yet, for example) but ALL things in there have a spiritual meaning and applicable relevance for us today, as they have in any generation since He walked the earth. My  :2c: Blessings....

I was scanning another discussion forum, and saw one of your posts, legoman...then came across this excerpt from the Lake of Fire series by J. Preston Eby...someone was talking (of course) about how they may as well deny God, etc., because they could just repent anyway  :thumbdown:.  Then the following was posted by Mr. Eby;

"There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually. Such people have no love for God nor fear of God, and they manifest by what they say that their professed serving of God is only a pretense, arising - not from any true love for Him - but from fear of punishment. If there were no prospect of hell these would promptly tell God to go to hell and they would, themselves, go to the devil. It is not thus with those who truly love God, for they serve not from fear, but from pure love and devotion. Remove punishment completely from the universe, and they would still serve God with all their hearts."

 :cloud9: EXACTLY, AMEN AND AMEN. Just like the Eve was taken out of Adam to show him what was in his stony heart, and the Israelites were taken out into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts, so too has He placed us in the wilderness to show us what is in our hearts and some thru the carnal mind's reasonings have made "peace" with what was revealed. Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on December 19, 2009, 02:23:03 PM
He placed us in the wilderness to show us what is in our hearts

And how!  :pitiful:

willieH: Hi Lomarah...  :cloud9:

I have chosen a portion of your answer to respond to first, before I deal with it in detail...

REASON must be part of our SPIRITUAL observations of God's WORD as He instructs us to REASON with Him -- Isaiah 1:18

In just a few posts I have noticed MANY traditional aspects to your present position concerning the Scriptures... :nod:

As I said, if you are willing to learn, then new prospectives can come into your experience... that is ALL that I meant... I certainly do not mean to project to you (or anyone else) that I "know it all"  :wink1:  

Being that you are a very young person, it is more than possible that in my 33+years of study which exceed your age by several years, that I just might have some insights that you do not, both of LIFE (64) and of the content of the WORD...   :JCThink:

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AM
It is true that God works in us to make us righteous. However there are also many, many verses that talk about what we need to do in order to cooperate with God in this process: Paul said, "Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 Unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3. (Repentance requires effort on your part.) "If any man desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Luke 9:23 "I have not found your works perfect before God." Rev 3:2-3. If you need me to I can give you some more, but you seem to be a person who knows your Bible so I'm sure you know where to find them.  :cloud9:

As I note in my detailed reply, this is a subject large enough for its own discussion, so I will "zero in" on -- Phil 2:12, mmkay?  :laughing7:  (although I can answer every one of these above, and any others you might like to pose in a discussion -- start the thread if you are so moved, and new Revelation just might take place in both of us!  :boogie:)

Before I comment, it must be recognized by the SINCERE observer of Scripture, that SURFACE understanding of it, is LIKELY not availed as the SPIRITUAL understanding of it.  

For an UNBELIEVER can deduce (as have you), this verse as meaning that THEY (should they explore it from an UNBELIEVING viewpoint), must DO something in order to be SAVED... to which Scripture in MANY PLACES, speaks otherwise --->  

Our "WORKS" are FILTHY RAGS according to Scripture -- Isaiah 64:6 -- and the WORD also notes that there is NONE that DOES GOOD, not ONE!  -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- Rom 3:10-18 --

So the SURFACE thinking that "percieves" that WE can DO anything that "helps" our SALVATION to be REALIZED ("working it out") is refuted elsewhere, by the WORD...

Therefore -- in order for this "working out" of Salvation, there must be another understanding which coincides and HARMONIZES with these verses (which actively  REFUTE the SURFACE understanding of them), by CONCLUDING that -- WE must "co-operate" with GOD to be SAVED...  :dontknow:

That said...

FIRST -- SALVATION is NOT in ANY WAY, "worked out" by us...  This verse you pose to me, is better recognized to be a thought which conveys:  During the course of your life, in which SALVATION is being worked out -- Not by US, but by GOD... IN US... for SALVATION is HIS WORK alone -- Eph 2:8-9 --

It therefore behooves us to RESPECT His COMMANDS, that we might AVOID the FEARS which WILL result from SOWING to the FLESH... which the WORD also teaches... :nod:

SECOND -- LOVE casts out FEAR... so the "FEAR and TREMBLING" mentioned in this verse, cannot be the FEARING of YHVH who CASTS IT OUT!  

The SPIRITUAL understanding of this verse, cannot be as you presently percieve,  ...but is FEAR of something ELSE, and NOT "FEAR" (to be AFRAID) of GOD... (the Greek word translated "FEAR" in -- Phil 2:12  -- #G5401 - PHOBOS = afraid -- is the SAME word used in John 4:18)

GOD is LOVE -- John 4:8 -- and PERFECT LOVE, ...CASTS OUT FEAR...

It is quite CONTRARY to percieve that the entity which, ELIMINATES FEAR, is also proposing that YOU have IT, and practice having it, in order to cultivate a relationship with Him...  That is NUTS!  :wacko2:  

Something on the order of -- trying to put a FIRE out with GASOLINE based upon an observance that concludes GASOLINE as a LIQUID, ...and therefore it shall "put out" the FIRE!  :mshock:

So... the SPIRITUAL understanding here which INCLUDES FEAR, is better observed (IMO), as the "REAPING and SOWING" principle of the WORD.  

There are MANY things which contain SEVERE and DREADFUL sufferings within them such as the DISEASES, SORROWFUL difficulties in relationships, not to mention NATURAL forces which can also be enacted in our circumstances, and IS exampled by the FLOOD of Noah... (GOD noted that "said FLOOD" was enacted due to men, SOWING of EVIL -- which is TO the FLESH -- which is SIN)...

What we are to "FEAR" (or, be "afraid of" = PHOBOS) is not GOD... but the things which are drawn into our circumstances by SOWING to the FLESH...

As a witness lomarah, ...I am amidst a 2yr battle with CANCER... I can tell you that it is something that is NOT to be taken lightly.  As well as that it has caused me SUFFERING in MANY AREAS (PAINFUL surgery, radiation therapy, financial devastations, etc.)  I can also tell you that it is highly likely that CANCER is IN my life, due to my own SOWING to the FLESH, DURING it! :pitiful: Truth be told, I spent 31 years of my life , often "sowing" the wrong things...  :crywipe: (and btw to set your mind at ease, ...murder wasn't one of them! :mnah:  :laughing7:)

Science has noted for EVERY ACTION there is an EQUAL and OPPOSITE -- RE-ACTION... this is true in ALL aspects of life in this realm, which is the LOF...

GOD made the Natural laws to be reflective of the SPIRITUAL... In other words, those LAWS had better be respected, or they shall BRING sorrow into our circumstances, ...sooner or later!  The "sowing / reaping" principle can be seen in many ways...

FIRE for instance.  

(1) It is our FRIEND, found in the SUN which shines each day and WARMS our earth...
(2) It is our FRIEND as we cook over it, our food into delicious portions...
(3) It is our FRIEND as it burns in the FIREPLACE in its mysterious beauty...

However...

(1) It can be our ENEMY if we carelessly stand in the SUN too long, BURNING us... bringing DEATH to our skin...
(2) It can be our ENEMY if we carelessly leave our cooking FIRE unattended... burning our food!
(3) It can be our ENEMY if we carelessly enact the FIREPLACE which has not been properly maintained and can BURN the entire house down!

The FEAR and TREMBLING is teaching which notes that SUBMISSION to the COMMAND of YHVH and the TEACHINGS of His WORD, will ELIMINATE the things which FEARFULLY shall enter our lives if His COMMAND is IGNORED... and we... SOW to the FLESH!

DEATH comes in many forms... and on MANY LEVELS...  If you burn your skin, cells of which your skin is COMPOSED, ...DIE.   If you eat BURNED FOOD, there are carcinogens within that can generate CANCER... If you allow carelessness to enter your enjoyment of FIRE it can not only BURN your house down, but others could LOSE their lives in the process, to include STRANGERS (fire dept), which endeavor to STOP what YOU STARTED -- BY that carelessness... do you see what I mean?

You might say, that no matter what YOU DO... others might effect you by harming you... and this is quite true...

I would answer -- YOU do not have control over others... but you DO have control over yourself, to either observe and follow the WORD, or NOT...

If you JOIN CHRIST in His SUFFERING for the sake of the GOSPEL and of RIGHTEOUSNESS of the WORD, then this suffering is NOT to be FEARED, rather it is to be SOUGHT, for it is an ETERNAL BADGE of Honor to be counted IN HIM...

As PAUL (whom you quote above), noted of himself --  2 Cor 11:22-30 -- who also said of THESE SUFFERINGS -- Rom 8:18 -- that in the "big picture" they really amount to NOTHING...  :dontknow:

More to come...  :laughing7:

willieH: Hi lomarah...  :cloud9:

Here is the rest of my reply to you lomarah...

This answer will be in TWO PARTS...

PART ONE:

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AM
Okay here I go again...

Quote from: willieHare you willing to learn?

Yes I am! I have much to learn. Unfortunately unlike you I do not know it all.  :wink1:

Such remarks are uncalled for lomarah... :pitiful:

I am as willing to LEARN as to teach... which is exactly how I have LEARNED what I presently know, even though that present knowledge is yet, by my own admission,  incomplete.  :dontknow:

I have made no such claim ("know it all")... You are new here... so let's face it, you KNOW LITTLE about me...  :dontknow:

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMTrue, you did not say that there is nothing but heaven after death for everyone. I deduced that since you don't believe there is hell or punishment or lake of fire after death then you must believe there is heaven for everyone. If you don't believe that, what exactly do you believe about life after death?

FIRST -- I believe the LOF is NOW... and is PART of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, the inner man, which is EVER with us, and shall ...NEVER... leave us (btw -- NEVER means NOT at ANY TIME -- BEFORE/DURING/AFTER  :dontknow:)

SECOND -- Who ever said there was "life AFTER death"?  That is UNBIBLICAL / LINEAR thinking.  There is no such thing as "AFTERLIFE" -- As is illustrated in the Parable of the Lost SON, the SON was... WITH the Father, LEFT the Father, and then RETURNED to the FATHER -- which means He came BACK to where he ALWAYS WAS.  That which is part and portion of the ETERNAL, means it has ALWAYS been. 

GOD notes to be ALL in ALL... He also notes to be UNCHANGING... so if He IS "all in all" then He WAS "all in all" and ALWAYS WILL BE "all in all"...

Quote from: willieHThese (LOF/future TORMENT for sinners, other than yourself) are deductions of YOURS -- of HIS WORDS which do not state any such thing...

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMFirst of all I never said that I was not a sinner or that I would not take part in the lake of fire. Everyone will be salted with fire, including me.

lomarah... you are so already conclusive of me, that you note my words as accuatory toward you... They are not so intended...

I did not say that you were NOT a "SINNER"... I noted your conclusion that the LOF is something which FOLLOWS this realm, which is again, ...LINEAR or LITERAL thinking.  Any Unspiritual person (not saying YOU are "unspiritual") -- reading the words of the Revelation can easily come to the conclusion -- that the LOF is -- "after" -- this life...

The ETERNAL and SPIRITUAL realm (of YHVH God), is BEFORE, DURING and AFTER this realm... in other words SURROUNDING it... exceeding it in every direction...

JESUS noted this (before, during, after) in John 3:13 -- telling Nicodemus that --

''No man HATH ASCENDED into Heaven [future]

but He that CAME DOWN [past] from heaven,

even the Son of man WHICH IS [during] in Heaven"

This Scripture notes JESUS making a claim that not only was He PRESENT in Heaven as He PHYSICALLY SPOKE with Nicodemus... but He was also in ALL POINTS of TIME as He SPOKE -- Past (was born on earth), Present (speaking to Nicodemus), and Future (He had yet to "ascend" in time -- John 20:17)

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMIf the fire I go through before I die does not make me righteous then I will take part in the fire after death.

Fire of DEATH?  Where does it say that the LOF is the "FIRE of DEATH"?  The LOF ...IS... the 2nd death... not the "FIRE of death"...  And where does it say that this LOF is "after" this life?  :dunno:

What the "2nd death" IS ... is Dependent upon your present observations of it, ...however, as CHRIST is REVEALED to you, you shall thereby note it in your beliefs... and that notation is subject to change as more REVELATION becomes available to you...  :dontknow:

As I see it... upon birth, we are CONCIEVED in SIN... GOD has thereby concluded ALL in UNBELIEF (IN ADAM [& EVE] who did not BELIEVE) --- which ("unbelief") is on the "list" in Rev 21:8 and which qualifies and SENDS ALL found on that "list" into THEIR PART of the LOF... :nod:

There is no Scripture that notes that ANYONE shall NOT experience the "2nd Death" [which is the LOF]... Rather, some will be "hurt" by it, others will not... This is the ORDAINATION of YHVH God... and is according to HIS CHOOSING, not ours... as HE WORKS --- ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AM(I should probably make it clear that I am not talking about literal fire here, but the spiritual fire of God that makes one righteous.) Secondly, Jesus certainly did speak of the Lake of Fire and torment for sinners: Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Hmmm... are you on this list, lomarah?  :dontknow:  And if you are (which you ARE), ...then YOU have your part in this "FIRE"...

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMRevelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

If you believe that this is in the here and now ONLY, then that is your opinion. I completely disagree.

You are welcome to disagree... does not matter to me in the slightest.  God is the only one which can reveal ANY Spiritual truth... that you disagree with what I say, does not negate it in any way... :mnah:

The JEWS who were the BEARERS of the ORACLES of GOD, ...did not acknowledge CHRIST who IS the TRUTH...  Why should it be any different in this age, when the truth is presented to men, lomarah?

Let's take a few points in this passage and break them down, okay?

(1)  9If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand  Do you percieve these to be ACTUAL "MARKS", lomarah, as does most of Christianity?  :dontknow: 

This Scripture is noting the WORSHIP of the "BEAST" to be the fulfilling of the GRATIFICATIONS of the FLESH, ...and the "mark" in the FOREHEAD, are noting those as immersed in, ...CARNAL THINKING... which "mark" then results of that thinking, in the ACTIONS (i.e. mark on the hand)...

(2)  10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.  What do you percieve His "cup" to be, lomarah?

This Scripture is noting the EARTH, and the PHYSICAL realm [LOF] in which SUFFERING is ordained to be.  Which is part of the PROCESS of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- GOD is not prone to FURY or ANGER as are men... His "anger" is PURPOSEFUL, not to AVENGE or "get even"!  Men have FURY and ANGER, because their EGO's or positions have been violated -- which are VANITY... GOD has no such VANITY...  GOD's WRATH -- IS revealed (not "will be") against the UNRIGHTEOUSNESSES -- OF men -- Rom 1:18 -- NOT against the men themselves... it is the WORKS of men which are consumed by His "wrath" -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- GOD LOVES the WORLD, lomarah... He is not ANGRY with it... HE put us here... of HIS CHOOSING... according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE...

Let me ask you a question lomarah -- What did YOU decide concerning your life, lomarah? -- Did you decide -- Your gender? Your birthplace? Era you would live in? Parents? Siblings? Hair color? Stature? City or Country? -- Let's face it sister... ALL this and MORE was chosen by HIM... WITH the complete knowledge of that which we would DO during our course.  So WHY should He be ANGRY with us, if HE decided our complete scenarios?  Deciding our enviornments, our living conditions, looks, poverty or riches?  :dunno:

(3)  11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.  Am I correct that you percieve this to be a picture of experiential "torment"?

This Scripture notes that the TORMENT is that which is being destroyed, not the person.  We are ORDAINED to SUFFER in following the SAVIOR, for it is as I have already noted, the PROCESS of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- the SMOKE is a sign of something which NO LONGER IS, lomarah.  The knowledge of our SUFFERING shall be KNOWN FOREVER, for it is the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of YHVH... and His Children are AS He ...IS...

Christianity foolishly supposes YHVH God to self--impose a "divine Alzheimers" upon Himself, that He shall "forget" this realm of EVIL and all that occured in it... :rolleye: This all occured to display HIS KNOWLEDGE of EVIL, and the JOY of FOREVER is the CONTRAST to it...

Thinking within this shallow and Unspiritual belief, that DARKNESS was revealed for nothing!  "CREATED" to be "DESTROYED"!  How CONTRARY is that?  Please! :rolleye: This SUFFERING experience of EVIL, shall EVER make us thankful for its OPPOSITE!

Quote from: willieHAgain, you are more than welcome to plug your ears to what I say, and remain where you are, no sweat off my back! 

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMI am not plugging my ears, I hear you loud and clear! I just disagree with you.

:laughing7: ...in other words, "plugging your ears" to what I say...  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieHWhere is your answer to these words of mine, lomarah:

Quote from: willieH on December 12, 2009, 06:34:36 PM
The GOSPEL is a message of PEACE and GLAD tidings (tidings=CHEERFUL ANNOUNCEMENT --to be preached to ALL MEN) -- Rom 10:15 -- What is "CHEERFUL" about MORE suffering, lomarah?  What is "PEACEFUL" about MORE suffering? 

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMYes, the gospel is awesome news! We will all be saved from sin through Jesus! Here is the thing: those who remain in sin are not at peace. They are currently suffering though they likely do not even realize to what extent. So to answer your question, there is nothing peaceful about more suffering, nothing at all. Which is why sinners need to be saved from sin and made righteous, thus the lake of fire.

No offense, but you yammer here saying nothing.  If your "Good news" which you present to the WORLD, includes a warning of TORMENT to come (which CHRIST did NOT instruct)... then your "Good news" is in fact, partly "BAD NEWS"...  Which includes TORMENT devoid of PEACE... for it contains conditions which are UNPEACEFUL... contrary to the words EUAGGELIZO and EUAGGELION [Gospel in Greek], as well as to the word PEACE...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH(1)  If a reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York, and of the 350 passengers & crew, ONE SURVIVED!"  Will you jump for JOY at this report lomarah?  Will you give it your "good news seal of approval"?  Or is it in truth TRAGICALLY, BAD NEWS for ALL but ONE?...  THIS is a fictional parallel to your presentation of "GOOD NEWS"

(2)  if the reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York and ALL 350 passengers & crew, SURVIVED!"  Now a striking difference is seen here.  This is GREAT and WONDERFUL NEWS!  And THIS is a fictional parallel to my presentation of GOOD NEWS"

Honestly, which of the 2 is really "GOOD NEWS", lomarah?

QuoteWell neither of the 2 are good news. But certainly the second is better than the first.  :laughing7:

I see your observation misses that, ...#2 presents a scenario in which a tragedy is avoided... concerning LIFE, which is the ONLY QUANTITY of REAL IMPORTANCE... which is GOOD NEWS...

The loss of the plane is IMMATERIAL and UNIMPORTANT, for all that it is, ...is just loss of MONEY... :nod:

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMI am not sure how this analogy relates to what I believe... Like you I am convinced that Christ will save everyone on the "plane"...

If you are so convinced... why do you mix BAD NEWS with your presentation to the WORLD lomarah?  Telling the WORLD, that they will be saved, but if they do not HEAR YOU, then they will suffer more, beyond this life...   :thumbdown:

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMI think what is differing in our views is our concept of salvation. I am assuming from your posts that you understand salvation as being released from the bondages of physical and mental suffering and pain, including death and sorrow. Am I correct?

No you are not correct.  The PHYSICAL sufferings of men are due to REAPING and SOWING to the FLESH... they have nothing to do with SALVATION.  Nor "paying for it" in any way... Concerning SALVATION, CHRIST payed the price IN FULL... Man cannot offer ANYTHING to gain his/her "SALVATION"...

FIRST -- I have been a believer in CHRIST for over 33 years, ...yet...  I am a CANCER victim lomarah... have been battling it for a YEAR now, enduring EXTREME amounts of PAIN and SUFFERING in that process...

SECOND -- Every man must meet his/her APPOINTMENT with DEATH...

I will continue this answer in PART TWO...  :happygrin:

willieH: Hi lomarah... :hithere:

PART TWO:

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMI understand salvation as being saved from sin and being made righteous, as well as being freed from all of the above. I am speaking of being made righteous in a literal sense here. Not the whole "churchianity" definition where God looks at us and sees us as righteous because of Jesus even though in reality we are still sinning like the dickens. I'm talking being made pure and HOLY, as He is holy.

HE makes us HOLY lomarah... no amount of lawkeeping or goodie 2 shoes... or suffering shall make us Holy... only the BLESSING of His Son's sacrfice on our behalf, which did not INVOLVE any of "OUR DOINGS"...

Quote from: willieHIN CHRIST -- that which is IN CHRIST -- which is ALL -- is "MADE RIGHTEOUS"!  For anything IN CHRIST (which is ALL according to 1 Cor 15:22) is thereby, "MADE" RIGHTEOUS!!

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AM1 Corinthians says that all SHALL BE made righteous. Not that all are now in Christ and are currently made righteous. Take a look at the news headlines. Obviously we are not all righteous.

Your use of the word "CURRENTLY" displays your LINEAR thinking... for all that "current" means is the MOMENT of NOW. 

NOW encompasses ALL forms of TIME -- past, present, and future.

"SHALL" is a term, realized within TIME... something that is a "SHALL issue" is found within the FINITE realm and remains a "NOW" issue, irregardless of its appearance in TIME...

By the conclusion of the LAST DAY which includes the conclusions of both RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT... SHALL ALL be made IN CHRIST.

Quote from: willieHNo man accomplishes this of their own doing!  Rather, it is the DOING of the Savior... and the Savior is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMIt is true that God works in us to make us righteous. However there are also many, many verses that talk about what we need to do in order to cooperate with God in this process: Paul said, "Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 Unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3. (Repentance requires effort on your part.) "If any man desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Luke 9:23 "I have not found your works perfect before God." Rev 3:2-3. If you need me to I can give you some more, but you seem to be a person who knows your Bible so I'm sure you know where to find them.  :cloud9:

It is a whole other discussion as to the meanings of these lomarah... but if ANY work of man, is used in order for his/her Salvation to be attained, then it was NOT due to the WORK of GOD... We can discuss these in another thread if you like, but your WORKS are filthy rags... as Scripture notes --- Isaiah 64:6 -- so those "filthy rags" cannot be utilized in "CLEANSING" of anything.

Quote from: willieHYou are yet to be redeemed lomarah... and so your vision is clouded somewhat by your own self deceptions... The Apostle John said -- 1 John 1:8 -- if we SAY we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is not IN US...

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMI actually agree with you when you say I am not yet redeemed. I never ever said that I have no sin in my life right now. I am looking forward to the day when I will be sin free!

Neither did I say that of you...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHThat GOD is able to convert the LARGEST of MISBEHAVIORS of men, only shows the MAJESTY and the DEPTH of His LOVE and POWER!!!

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMYES EXACTLY! But until they are converted they are still sinners! I am quite confused as to what you actually believe... It seems that you think that all people will automatically be converted and made righteous when they die?

I believe that ALL shall, ...IN TIME:

(1) Die -- FIRST -- (in the DAY of their sin) spiritual death, and SECOND - physical death -- which BOTH take place IN TIME -- Gen 2:17 -- Gen 5:5 -- Heb 9:27
(2) be RESURRECTED -- IN TIME -- John 6:44 -- John 12:48
(3) ARE JUDGED -- IN TIME -- John 12:31
(4) shall either bear their SHAME openly (as did Adam & Eve) or be CLOTHED in CHRIST -- Rev 3:18
(5) that in TIME ...shall ALL be REDEEMED -- for the LAST DAY is STILL amidst TIME, in which Judgment and Resurrection takes place -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 (in DUE TIME)

Does that help?  :happygrin:  What do you believe, lomarah?  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieHIn saying the above, you set yourself a JUDGE of others... "Let him WITHOUT SIN, cast the first stone" ...do you remember these words, stoneholder... er... I mean, lomarah?

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMI don't understand how that is judging? Saying that having murderers, etc in heaven would make it hell is not judging, it is being absolutely truthful! You seem to be misunderstanding me, I have never, ever claimed that I am NOT a sinner, that I am NOT a murderer, adulterer, liar and every other detestable thing there is. What I am saying is until I am redeemed completely of all of my sin I will NOT BE ABLE TO BE A PART OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

The what gives you the RIGHT to displace others who have sinned?  Using the measure of YOURSELF (being a non-murderer), as the deciding factor?

YOUR SIN (and mine as well), is every bit as much SIN, as these ones (murderers, etc) you decree as "lesser" than yourself.

Quote from: willieHAbove, you call for JUDGMENT of the "BLACK SIN" of the murderer to be JUDGED by FIRE, and of course, ...your "little WHITE SINS" to be ignored because they, in your decieving estimation of yourself, are NOT as "bad" as he whom you JUDGE...   

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AM:omg: WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS FROM????!!!!???? You don't know me from a hole in the ground, I could have murdered dozens of people!

:Yeahright:  And if this were to be so, ...then you therefore, determine that YOUR presence would make heaven, ...HELL?  :laughing7:  Please, what a weak arguement you present, ...you have much to learn, young sister... :pitiful:

You have JUDGED that "murderers" should not be members of the Kingdom of Heaven... that THEY would make it HELL and YOU would not?  How can you NOT SEE that YOU are comparing THEM with YOURSELF?

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMHere's your own advice, I highly suggest you take it:

Quote from: willieHHad I SAID this, you would have QUOTED it, ...however I did NOT say this, and thusly you were unable to QUOTE me as saying it...   They remain your words, not mine.

I have not intended to misconstrue or add to your words, where have I done this lomarah?  If you name the instances, I shall either apologize or show you where you stated these things.  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieHThe TRUE citizens of heaven do not JUDGE, for they are commanded by CHRIST to abstain from it -- Matt 7:1 -- instead, they bring GOOD NEWS to the downtrodden of this life, NEWS that informs them that their SINS have been TAKEN AWAY -- John 1:29 -- and that they are UNCONDITIONALLY LOVED, by the ONLY ONE who has the RIGHT to JUDGE them -- John 8:10-11  -- remember CHRIST is IMPARTIAL to ALL -- If He had the chance to pass JUDGMENT upon one (woman in adultery) and He did NOT --- and Scripture notes that He remains the SAME -- Heb 13:8 -- YESTERDAY (to the adulterous woman) TODAY (to you and I) and FOREVER (to all who are walk the earth within the course of time)...

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMNope he didn't judge that woman, but he certainly had some nasty words to say to the righteous pharisees and hypocrites and also to the churches in Revelation.

You sidestep the issue presented with this comment...

CHRIST said NOTHING "nasty"... He spoke the TRUTH to them, as do I to you, to which they "plugged their ears"... and CHRIST noted the defiled state of their teachings to them...

As far as the "churches" in Revelation... These are ALL applicable to ALL men... so where you see critcisms of any given church, then it is a criticism of YOU and I... as well as everyone else.  These criticisms are not NASTY at all... they are pointing out the smudges on our faces... which are in need of addressing.

Quote from: willieHRead the list -- Rev 21:8 -- do you find yourself on it?  If you do, then you have YOUR part of the Lake of FIRE...

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMAs I stated before, yes I am certainly on the list and will certainly take part in the lake of fire.

Good for you... You are having your "PART" as we speak...  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieHALL are UNRIGHTEOUS lomarah -- Rom 3:10 -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- and ALL are partakers of the 2nd death... which IS the LAKE OF FIRE...

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMThat is blatant heresy. Sorry to be so blunt but here are a couple of verses to prove my point: Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

What "heresy"?  It just says that "he that overcomes will not be hurt" by it... it does not say that he that "overcomes" will not have his/her part in it... (the 2nd Death which = LOF -- Rev 20:14)

This verse does NOT say that ALL shall not take part... and the Scriptures state ALL are UNRIGHTEOUS as I have already noted... :nod:

This verse does NOT prove your point!

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMRevelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Again you fail.  This verse states the 2nd Death will have NO POWER over them, it does NOT SAY that they shall NOT endure it, traverse it, experience it...  :dontknow:

This verse also does NOT prove your point!  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieHAs He "added" you, were you TORMENTED?  And if HE "added" you by HIS DOING, without TORMENT, how does He remain IMPARTIAL, by "adding" others VIA TORMENT? 

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMI'm not sure what you mean by "added"... If you mean added me to the list of believers I can tell you that I certainly WAS tormented and became a believer because of it. And no, I do not consider Him to be partial because of it.

Hmmm...  :Chinscratch:

FIRST -- Yes, I DO mean "added" to the Church... as a believer... :nod:

SECOND -- In what way were you TORMENTED in order to be
"added", lomarah? 

And if so... in order to be IMPARTIAL, He must deal with ALL in the same manner (same "torment"" as YOU recieved). 

If YOU were NOT TORMENTED by FIRE in your "addition" to the believers, ...then ALL others must NOT be TORMENTED by FIRE either, in their "addition" to the believers...

Quote from: willieHLet me ask you a question... If GOD is IMPARTIAL to any person (10 verses say He IS)... then He EQUALLY treats each person.  So if YOU do not have to endure TORMENT outside of THIS LIFE... how does God maintain that "IMPARTIALITY", by TORMENTING others outside of THIS LIFE?

Quote from: lomarah on December 15, 2009, 12:41:38 AMI think you are misunderstanding what the impartiality of God is. He is impartial because He loves all the same and died for all people. It does not mean He will not let some go through rougher times than others. Everyone will go through the fire that they need to in order to become righteous. He made each one of us and only He knows what each one of us needs and when.

I think it is YOU which misunderstand the word IMPARTIAL... let me provide its definition:

---

Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: im·par·tial
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)im-ˈpär-shəl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1587
: not partial or biased : treating or affecting all equally

---

Does that help any?  :laughing7:

You use your own life to measure others, and to measure the process of GOD... concluding that some will recieve DIFFERENT from Him than others... which DENIES IMPARTIALITY... it instead, displays FAVORITISM...  :Whistle:

IMPARTIALITY means EQUAL TREATMENT to ALL...  It is NOT a variable as you erringly suppose.  If I claim that I am IMPARTIAL in my treatment of YOU and ALL others, then I must TREAT YOU ALL the SAME...

I hear you, Willie!!  :thumbsup:

I've been participating in another forum on the subject of hell over the last several days and was just wondering to myself earlier, as I vacuumed, why is it that people don't think that THIS LIFE is "hell" enough.  :Shoot:

Trying to remember back to just exactly when I began to see judgment as "now" rather than "later" and I honesty can't recall. But I think that it began not long after (or within about a year or so of) coming to see universal salvation as the truth and that was in late 2004.

The first thing that I began to question was the teaching of more than one resurrection, with the resurrection of the just taking place "first", followed by the "thousand year" reign of Christ and then the "second" resurrection. I began to ask myself why it was that I was claiming that the elect ("just") are resurrected "first" when Christ said that in the time of harvest he would send forth His angels, telling them "gather ye FIRST THE TARES".  :Chinscratch:

Then I began to wonder why I (like so many) never bothered to count the resurrection of Christ as "the first".  :Whistle:

Then the words of Christ to Martha suddenly stood out to me (as did her words to Him). When Christ said that her brother would rise again, Martha said that she KNEW this; that she KNEW that he would rise again "in the resurrection at the last day" (sounded pretty familiar to what I, myself, "knew", right?  :happygrin:) I never really paid that much attention to the significance of Christ's response:

Joh 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

He ~IS~ the resurrection and the life.... and HE was standing right THERE... and HE said to Lazarus COME FORTH!! And Lazarus CAME FORTH out of his grave, having been bound hand and foot with grave-clothes, he was LOOSED at the command of the Lord!!

Because Jesus Christ ~IS~ THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE, even THE FIRST-fruits of them that slept, it is (Paul said) the power OF ~HIS~ RESURRECTION that we are to strive to KNOW... as BLESSED AND HOLY is he that hath PART IN the FIRST resurrection.  :boogie:

Then all kinds of other things began to stand out to me. The field being WHITE, ALREADY to harvest.... WHO he sent TO REAP (the reapers being THE ANGELS).

Suddenly I realized that Heb 9:27 wasn't about MY death or the death OF MEN at ALL. Judgment does not follow OUR death, it is by the death of Christ that we ARE JUDGED.

Heb 9:24-28  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

CHRIST came ONCE TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) but AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT!

I will not leave you comfortless, I WILL COME TO YOU!!! And in that day you shall know that I am in the Father and He in Me and I IN YOU. CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY!!  :angel5:

Then I began to see who the "wicked servant" is and why and "what" he "owes".(thanks KIM!! And Graham, and Rosie and so many others, too, who sat with me and showed me and allowed me to share with them what I was seeing, too)

Where and how we are "recompensed".... IN THE EARTH... even INTO OUR BOSOM.

Christ said I AM COME TO SEND FIRE ON THE EARTH... NOW is the judgment of this world!

Oh THE HEAVENS (that praise HIM) and THE EARTH (that is His FOOTSTOOL); His FEET being as fine brass, AS IF THEY BURN IN A FURNACE.

Joh 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

The the way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH!  :Egyptdance2:


Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were cast into the fire BOUND, but because they walked with THE FOURTH MAN in the fire, ONE like unto THE SON OF GOD, they were seen walking LOOSE, and were NOT HURT for the fire HAD NO POWER OVER THEM!!  :declare: (and what happened to those who cast them into the fire?  :dontknow: Compare 'that' to Rev 11:5.  :laughing7:)

Our God is such an amazing GOD!!!

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.  :dbook:

:iagree:

Could go on and on  :laughing7:... but you are doing a far better job!!!  :gthumbsup: Carry on!!!  :wink2:

Ok, you did TWO posts in the time I took to do ONE?  :grin: You must be working off-line?  :laughing7:

I wish you could 'see' the formatting on this forum while writing/editing, before posting. I don't know HOW 'you' DO IT? IS there a trick to it?   :winkgrin:

 :omg: willie you are one of the most long winded brothers I've ever had. LOL! I am waaayyyy too exhausted to reply tonight but hopefully will have the energy to give my two cents tomorrow.
Good night for now. :grave: (<--- that smiley is so fitting for these forums don't you think?) 

willieH: Hi lomarah...  :cloud9:

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 05:57:54 AM
:omg: willie you are one of the most long winded brothers I've ever had. LOL! I am waaayyyy too exhausted to reply tonight but hopefully will have the energy to give my two cents tomorrow.
Good night for now. :grave: (<--- that smiley is so fitting for these forums don't you think?)  

The WORD is quite DETAILED... I like to follow Its example in my answers...  :laughhand:

Some don't bother with details... I do!  :dontknow:

Due to Their length and DETAIL, one could say the Scriptures are a bit, "long winded" couldn't they?  :sigh:

Quote from: Chris on December 22, 2009, 02:07:22 AMI wish you could 'see' the formatting on this forum while writing/editing, before posting. I don't know HOW 'you' DO IT? IS there a trick to it?   :winkgrin:

You can see the formatting before posting by clicking the "Preview" button.
But I doubt that was your question  :happy3:

LOF, Second Death , Unbelivers.

Ok, This is just "my thoughts" so i am not looking to debug it.

Second death is when the Seed of God is Awaken in you By Him when you become aware of his drawings, some call it born again, some call it saved, i call it Becoming One With God in your being. "in this life" ...immortal

The first death was when JC rose from the dead and brought Life to ALL THINGS AT THE CROSS Bought back the "all things" from the ruler of this then world- Death-carnality- devil if you like that saying, Adam's mark on humanity, Christ's mark on humanity is Life...

When an unbeliever becomes a believer "Belief in Christ" they die the second death, LOF I did like the drop of water analogy of fire of God, I think that is close enough to explain what I feel , All of us will feel the burning of God even after we are awakened to God, until we ALL are ALL IN ALL. Back to God

Okay I will reply to your first reply to my second reply first.  :laughhand:

Quoteif you are willing to learn, then new prospectives can come into your experience

Trust me, new perspectives are coming into my experience all the time... just ask my poor ET believing husband who thinks I am a heretic, or my former pastor and his wife who are convinced I am becoming more and more deceived and am going to "lead my daughter astray".

QuoteBeing that you are a very young person, it is more than possible that in my 33+years of study which exceed your age by several years, that I just might have some insights that you do not, both of LIFE (64) and of the content of the WORD...

I completely agree. I have much respect for my elders and their life experiences and perspectives.


I don't agree with what you believe about our having nothing to do in working out our salvation. Like you said, we could go into it but it would start another huge thread and I realllllly don't have the time nor the energy right now. (Btw my beliefs about this are backed up from someone who has heard directly from God... And no I do not believe that everyone who claims to have heard from God actually has, I am very cautious when it comes to that type of thing.)

QuoteWhat we are to "FEAR" (or, be "afraid of" = PHOBOS) is not GOD... but the things which are drawn into our circumstances by SOWING to the FLESH...

I agree that we should fear the consequences of sowing to the flesh, however I also believe we are to fear God like we would fear our own (good) earthly fathers who will punish us when we do something wrong. If you love your child you WILL punish them for doing wrong. And so will God, thankfully!

Hebrews 10:31 
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1 Peter 2:17 
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God.

Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.


Okay, onto the next reply, or "Part One":

QuoteSuch remarks are uncalled for lomarah...

Sorry I did get a little carried away there...  :GBlush:

QuoteGOD notes to be ALL in ALL... He also notes to be UNCHANGING... so if He IS "all in all" then He WAS "all in all" and ALWAYS WILL BE "all in all"...

Yeah I'm not really comprehending this... I thought Jesus had to reign until all His enemies are under His feet and then He gives all reign back to God and then God will be all in all?
Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

  1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

   23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

   24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

   25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

   26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

   27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

   28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I understand that you don't consider time as linear and I sort of understand what you mean... but my brain really can't wrap itself around that concept very well.

Oop my daughter just woke up, I'll have to try and write the rest of my response later. Pleeeeeeeease don't respond to this until I at least get the chance to read your other posts and leave at least a short comment so that you know I read them?

Second death?

Paul said it was appointed for man to die ONCE and after that face the judgement.

I think everyones name is written in the Lambs book of life, because he came to save all the Father gave him...all.

Lets say after you die once, (Be awakened to the seed of God IN you and YOU IN Him){some say born again}, then you go through life on earth experencing the fires of correction to train you/us to be more God like.

Thats a good way of looking at it Lee.
To be honest, i dont get involved in too much thinking these days about anything, i just spend my time basking in love and focusing on that...Faith, hope, love and the greatest was love, love covers over a multitude of sins.  God is love?  That'l do me!  Love works no ill?  Thatll do me too then!...God will save all?  Great i wouldnt expect anything else from a being of love and the infinite power to carry out his (loving) will....

...Anything else i now consider a waste of my time, im a 'works' person, not because i feel i have to be, but because i want to be. Im at my best when im out fixing broken hearts and at my worst when im slouched in front of a book or a pc all day mindnumbing and trying to work things out which there are about a billion interpretations for (and most of them wrong) , trying to get my head through endless scipture interpretations, endless genalogies and old wives tales whilst getting more and more depressed about it and confused...

I have faith too, faith that God is love and will save all mankind as the scriptures promise and i leave it at that...How much more faith can i put in anyone?!

To me God isnt the author of confusion, he is love, and its pretty clear to me then that rather than sit around thinking all day about a load of krap, id be of far better use helping people.  I cant change the world, but i can change someone elses world.

Im not having a go at you or anyone else Lee, its just that the original guy who posted this is obviously confused enough as it is already and im hear to tell him that he doesnt need to know EVERYTHING.  All he needs to know is that God is love, Jesuss most important commandments was to love God, who is love and his neighbour as himself.
Jesus said that is the way to eternal life, and we know that eternal life is 'knowing God'. (love).

I would just hate anyone to go through what i went through with my confusion and depression, because you know what?  90% of the religious are desperate, lonely, confused, anxious people...and love takes all that crap, batters it round the head and lets people go free, its the most important thing to get right, and most people miss it, preferring to (*&^ their heads up constantly by trying to work everything out, many of them things that are hidden by God in the first place or things not even written for them but written for a particular people or person at a particular time in history and more often than not talking about something that has nothing to do that what most people think it has and there for the sole purpose of testing the human heart, mind and thoughts...sharper than a two edged sword, and really at the end of the day whatever they learn from it its not going to be better than love anyway...which is the most excellent way according to Paul and the way to know God.

I can personally add to this that God has only EVER really spoken to me when i have sought out love with all my heart.  The rest of the time he has said things to me like "Pick up your mat and walk".  (Thanks for that one God).
And recently he showed me the book of Joel where it says i should cry and weep and fast and then he would restore me till everything is running over in abundance (or somthing like that).
Ive had 2 miracles, both of which were brought about when i was at my most loving, and so thats what im going to concentrate on now, and i would urge others who have suffered in the name of constantly trying to work everything out to do the same....its more important. 

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 22, 2009, 10:28:52 AM

Quote from: Chris on December 22, 2009, 02:07:22 AMI wish you could 'see' the formatting on this forum while writing/editing, before posting. I don't know HOW 'you' DO IT? IS there a trick to it?   :winkgrin:

You can see the formatting before posting by clicking the "Preview" button.
But I doubt that was your question  :happy3:

Hey WhiteWings! Thanks for responding. :thumbsup: Yeah, I am aware of the preview pane; that's why I went back and deleted almost all of my formatting; it didn't look so hot when I previewed it. :laughing7: Would be nice to be able to see how your post will look as you type/format it, instead of seeing just the codes. vBulletin allows that, which is quite nice (especially when you just want to copy/paste something that is already formatted), but not many forums use it. CF and CARM do and there is one other that I post at that does, but I can't remember the domain name since it's been awhile since I have been there. No biggy!! I'll get back to lurking now.  :happygrin:

right on

Again im not dissing anyone, far from it, but ive heard all the so called great Bible teachers all my life with their "this means that and that means this" and none of them can come to any agreement.
It does more harm than good, it confuses people.

I want to write this for the benefit of the original poster, lest he get drawn in by long debates which really dont do anyone any good, but rather most of the time cause friction and disputes and are mostly a waste of time in my opinion.

The truth is we all have to give an account of OURSELVES to God and work out our OWN salvation.
When God judges me and says "Hey why did you do that you knew it was wrong for you", and if i say "Oh sorry God, thingy told to me that was the way it was and i listened to him instead".  I wonder what God will say?
And of course the simple truth is that we can have great knowledge to figure out great mysteries and faith to move mountains, but without love were NOTHING...not - Not even a piece of dung.  NOTHING.
And i see far to much gibbering going on and people professing themselves to be great teachers and even prophets and not enough love.

I have felt the saving power of love and found it sufficient to conquer anything the world can lay upon me, but knowledge and wisdom (as the st says) will pass away, and in the end only hope faith and love will remain, the greatest being love.
Knowledge helps if its sound knowledge, but how often does anyone preach sound knowledge and not their own internal giberish?  Something they thought up themselves which another 100 passages of scripture can found to refute what they say?
The basics of UR is sound knowledge, because it is truth, but as for the rest of working everything out (even things that dont apply to us today) isnt essential.  St Paul said that ALL scipture is God breathed and USEFUL, but he didnt say it was essential, and i sincerly hope that people reading this might cloak themselves with love and think about going out to help others and give love to those that need it, rather than spend another day sitting at a PC indoors, isolated from the real world, debating on things that could be debated on forever and a conclusion never be found.

The letter does kill.  It almost killed me.

Quote from: Lee Damboise on December 23, 2009, 03:52:59 AM
right on

Love you Lee, hope everything is going good, well have to have a good chat sometime, missed you.

Quote from: friendofmankind on December 23, 2009, 03:54:05 AM
Again im not dissing anyone, far from it, but ive heard all the so called great Bible teachers all my life with their "this means that and that means this" and none of them can come to any agreement.
It does more harm than good, it confuses people.

I want to write this for the benefit of the original poster, lest he get drawn in by long debates which really dont do anyone any good, but rather most of the time cause friction and disputes and are mostly a waste of time in my opinion.

The truth is we all have to give an account of OURSELVES to God and work out our OWN salvation.
When God judges me and says "Hey why did you do that you knew it was wrong for you", and if i say "Oh sorry God, thingy told to me that was the way it was and i listened to him instead".  I wonder what God will say?
And of course the simple truth is that we can have great knowledge to figure out great mysteries and faith to move mountains, but without love were NOTHING...not - Not even a piece of dung.  NOTHING.
And i see far to much gibbering going on and people professing themselves to be great teachers and even prophets and not enough love.

I have felt the saving power of love and found it sufficient to conquer anything the world can lay upon me, but knowledge and wisdom (as the st says) will pass away, and in the end only hope faith and love will remain, the greatest being love.
Knowledge helps if its sound knowledge, but how often does anyone preach sound knowledge and not their own internal giberish?  Something they thought up themselves which another 100 passages of scripture can found to refute what they say?
The basics of UR is sound knowledge, because it is truth, but as for the rest of working everything out (even things that dont apply to us today) isnt essential.  St Paul said that ALL scipture is God breathed and USEFUL, but he didnt say it was essential, and i sincerly hope that people reading this might cloak themselves with love and think about going out to help others and give love to those that need it, rather than spend another day sitting at a PC indoors, isolated from the real world, debating on things that could be debated on forever and a conclusion never be found.

The letter does kill.  It almost killed me.

I just have to say one thing:  amen, brother.
oh yeah, and also: Peace to you.  :HeartThrob:

I noticed friendofmankind your saying you were a "works" sort of person because of your nature, it was what you wanted to be, but not because of legalism.  When you mention the differing interpretations of various Scriptural things it reminded me of some things to say.  While there is a period when it may seem uncertain what to think, when you persist it all eventually clears up.  What we don't know just yet we will eventually.  "Now we have the mind of Christ."  It has been said there are only three denominations:  The Think-ers, The Do-ers, The Be-ers.  Some of us just have to understand.  And, we will.  It is God's call and promise.  We are individually and corporately coming into the image and likeness of God.

But, lest I mislead someone, love is to be the over-riding factor in this new life with
God.  We've hardly seen anything yet of what all this means when the seals are opened and the world is subjected to the manifestation of the legal inheritors of God.  Those who have been imprisoned all their lives don't comprehend but intimations of liberty.

Maybe the Do'ers were once Be'ers who realized that Being wasn't good enough so they became think'ers, then one day they realized they were thinking too much and became Do'ers.

:grin:

willieH: Hi lomarah...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieHBeing that you are a very young person, it is more than possible that in my 33+years of study which exceed your age by several years, that I just might have some insights that you do not, both of LIFE (64) and of the content of the WORD...

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PMI don't agree with what you believe about our having nothing to do in working out our salvation.

What do you read in this verse, lomarah:

Eph 1:11 --  In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the PURPOSE of HIM who WORKETH -- ALL THINGS -- after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL...

(1)  Can something "PREDESTINATED" by GOD, do otherwise?  This is like saying that:  GOD SAYS that something WILL BE as HE SAYS -- however YOU SAY it can be CHANGED...  :mshock: :mnah:

(2)  If GOD is "working ALL THINGS", then, how can ANYONE be "working" anything?  This is like saying that "GOD has ALL the MONEY in existence", ...but I still have money.  :laughing7: :mnah:

If ALL THINGS are WORKED after the counsel of the WILL of YHVH, and ARE therein WORKED -- by HIM... where does that leave YOU and YOUR "working out your salvation" by YOUR "WILL" (doings generated by YOU)?

If YOU are in fact DOING things which are PIVOTAL in YOUR SALVATION... then how can it be said that GOD is "WORKING" them?  :mshock:

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PMLike you said, we could go into it but it would start another huge thread and I realllllly don't have the time nor the energy right now.

Boy, for a person almost 40 years my junior, it is surprising to me that in every answer, you are "WAYYYYYYY to tired" or, have "NO ENERGY"... as well as "NO TIME"!  :heat:

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PM(Btw my beliefs about this are backed up from someone who has heard directly from God... And no I do not believe that everyone who claims to have heard from God actually has, I am very cautious when it comes to that type of thing.)

Because YOU don't "believe" the claims of other, means nothing other than YOU disbelieve their claims...  :thumbdown:  It does not in any way negate their claims because of your "disbelief"... the JEWS did NOT BELIEVE that JESUS was WHO He said He was... did that "negate His claims"?

It does not matter to me what people think of what I believe... I am concerned with what GOD thinks of what I believe... so I therefore KEEP ON SEARCHING!  :cloud9:

What if your "belief" in this person (whoever it is) which claims to "hear DIRECTLY from God" turns out to be a quack?   It is always best NOT to rest your faith upon a MAN who makes such claims, rather, it is best to be about establishing your OWN -- DIRECT communications with GOD. :nod:

I can testify, that I hear DIRECTLY from GOD, as do MOST of the folks here on TM...

I'm curious, ...what kind of credential do you attempt offer here?  :dontknow:

Many times I turn to the EXACT PAGE as I open the WORD, for a reference!  This is NOT "coincidence"... it has occured HUNDREDS of times... maybe even thousands.  So whoever you are resting your faith upon... that MAN is still a fallible source, subject to error.  My advice (take it or leave it), is to seek to "HEAR" from GOD DIRECTLY, for yourself.  :thumbsup:

Many make such claims, such David Koresh or James Jones... and those who "believed" that these misdirected men, heard "directly from God"... paid the price of their deceptions.  You are welcome to believe whatever you like...

I have not asked you to BELIEVE anything... I have stated that if you are WILLING to LEARN, and do not PLUG your EARS... purely on the basis that they new thoughts which differ with your present observation, ...will thereby give you an opportunity to GAIN new INSIGHT.  That is ALL!  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieHWhat we are to "FEAR" (or, be "afraid of" = PHOBOS) is not GOD... but the things which are drawn into our circumstances by SOWING to the FLESH...

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PMI agree that we should fear the consequences of sowing to the flesh, however I also believe we are to fear God like we would fear our own (good) earthly fathers who will punish us when we do something wrong. If you love your child you WILL punish them for doing wrong. And so will God, thankfully!

Don't pretend to teach me parenthood dear one... I have a son TEN YEARS older than yourself, ...A daughter NINE YEARS older than you which has a SON only 8 YEARS your junior, ...and another daughter SEVEN YEARS older than you...  :laughing7:

I NEVER "feared" my father OR my mother!  I RESPECTED who they were in proximity to me, and THAT is what GOD seeks of us...

Btw... I never PUNISHED my children... In LOVE, I corrected them...  There is a BIG difference between PUNISHING and CORRECTING...

(1)  PUNISHMENT --- is done of VENGENCE or MENTAL INSTABILITY, which seeks to bring HARM and exact PAIN for embarrassments of ones VANITY or EGO... Why should GOD "punish" us for a scenario HE DECIDED?  -- Rom 11:32

(2) CORRECTION -- The other is DONE with PURPOSE intended... and is administered as a HELP to the CHILDS betterment... not hurting the child, rather REDIRECTING him/her.  It is more aligned with REASON, that GOD LOVES us (He doesn't change)... and His LOVE demands we be CORRECTED... put on the pathway to Righteousness, and for ever...

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PMHebrews 10:31 
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I might remind you that LOVE CASTS OUT FEAR (which has TORMENT)... you therefore read this verse, by observing it with the wrong parameters... (that LOVE which REPELS FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- is -- in your view -- trying to INSTILL it IN US! -- :rolleye:)

We are ALL in the hands of the LIVING GOD, lomarah... No offense kid, but you really have some surface understandings. 

Scripture is pretty CLEAR that GOD is MOLDING the CLAY -- Jer 18:4-6 -- CLAY is "molded" in the HAND of the POTTER -- Rom 9:21

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PM1 Peter 2:17 
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God.

Quoting this does nothing to establish the idea the GOD wishes us to be AFRAID of Him... How many of YOUR LOVED ONES, do you FEAR, lomarah? :dunno:  ---> :punish: :hammerhead: ...OR...  :love1: :friendstu: :grouppray:

GOD says in His WORD, that IN the active LOVING of our brethren, is our LOVE for Him, established -- 1 John 4:20-21 -- Matt 25:40  

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PMRevelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come

More of the same... to GIVE GLORY is to GIVE RESPECT, which IS the "FEAR" which YHVH desires of us...

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PMHebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

I have not suggested that we are not "chastened" -- that is what THIS LIFE is all about! ...but you MISS the word LOVE in this verse, thinking you must for some distorted reason, ...be AFRAID of Him who LOVES you???  :sigh:

Our "chastening" is found in the MYRIAD sufferings we endure here in THIS LIFE, and is PART of the PROCESS of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10

Quote from: willieHGOD notes to be ALL in ALL... He also notes to be UNCHANGING... so if He IS "all in all" then He WAS "all in all" and ALWAYS WILL BE "all in all"...

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PMYeah I'm not really comprehending this... I thought Jesus had to reign until all His enemies are under His feet and then He gives all reign back to God and then God will be all in all?
Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

If you view the Scriptures LITERALLY and LINEARLY... then you come up with SHALLOW answers that don't make sense, and fail to align with REASON...

As I said... If you are willing to LEARN, then you shall avail the opportunity to grow.

YHVH GOD is UNCHANGING -- Mal 3:6 -- as well as is HIS WORD -- Heb 13:8 -- In your limited view, lomarah... you think that manifestations of TIME put the ETERNAL -- IN PLACE -- Please!  :laughhand:

Your vision of the ETERNAL WORD, is to box it into TIME constraints... failing to SEE, ...that on ETERNAL TERMS (not temporal terms such as TIME) -- ALL is already DONE. 

The manifestation of TIME does not put the ETERNAL in place (all IN all)... the ETERNAL puts TIME in its place -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- for what is HOLY and ETERNAL cannot in ANY WAY, be displaced by the EVIL manifestation (doings) of EVIL creatures (men) amongst the CORROSIVE element known as, "time"...

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PM1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

   23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

   24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

   25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

   26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

   27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

   28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I understand that you don't consider time as linear and I sort of understand what you mean... but my brain really can't wrap itself around that concept very well.

lomarah... TIME emerged FROM ETERNITY... not the other way around... ETERNITY is not allowed to BE at the "END of TIME"  :laughing7:  TIME is an isolated SPECK amongst the universe.

Do you not see why GOD made the earth so small amidst the universe, where the most IMPORTANT thing in ETERNITY was to be availed? (GOD's "knowledge" of Good & Evil)

There are teachings within the INFINITE size of the Created UNIVERSE, ...and the FINITE size of the EARTH!

The "size" of the Earth is in DIRECT perspective to EVIL, its place and duration of practiced existence, is so MINISCULE, as to not even be present IN the UNIVERSE!

Whereas the "size" of the UNIVERSE is in DIRECT PERSPECTIVE to GOOD, and its place and duration of practiced existence being SO LARGE, as to not be COMPREHENDED!

Think about it.

Quote from: lomarah on December 22, 2009, 10:44:39 PMOop my daughter just woke up, I'll have to try and write the rest of my response later. Pleeeeeeeease don't respond to this until I at least get the chance to read your other posts and leave at least a short comment so that you know I read them?

Bless you within your motherhood, lomarah... and thank you for reading the posts... I don't expect ANYTHING from you... I only mean to give guidance, from one who has traversed areas you have yet to set foot upon...  :teaching:

:Peace:

delete

Quote from: sparrow on December 23, 2009, 06:25:41 AM
Maybe the Do'ers were once Be'ers who realized that Being wasn't good enough so they became think'ers, then one day they realized they were thinking too much and became Do'ers.

:grin:

Hahahaha!  That made me laugh Sparrow!  Good one lol!
I just find it more emotionally stabilising and much more fun to be a do-er of the word in actions and deeds and not a mere hearer.   As for the study, i used my limited brain as much as i could, but its a big book and too much study wearies the mind.  (Especially mine), and has the effect of taking away love, rather than adding to it (for me personally), because a lot of it just brings confusion, and lets face it "God HIDES things", and the Bible is full of MYSTERIES and SECRETS, so with that in mind (and thousands of interpretations going around all claiming to be right), i just gave up reading as much.
Im not saying i dont read, i just feel that most of my time is better spent doing something else, so i denote less time to study now and more time DOING, because i believe DOING is worthy of MORE TIME devoted to it.

Zeek, I don't think willie meant any sarcasm, it is just his way of writing.

Quote from: willieH
I have not suggested that we are not "chastened" -- that is what THIS LIFE is all about! ...

Hi willie,

I have a question?  I agree that we go through the fire in this life but do you think that it might continue on and even after the return of Christ?  For instance there are people in this life who don't know God and have no desire to know him and there are those who are evil and never have a bad thing happen to them while they live. Will these people have to endure suffering the way we do now, at some point in time?

If the LOF is experienced only in this life, there will be some who are evil that will never experience it, unless they experience it after they have been resurrected.

Would you give me your opinion on this?

CHB

Quote from: CHB on December 23, 2009, 04:16:31 PM

Zeek, I don't think willie meant any sarcasm, it is just his way of writing.

i've deleted my post.  letting personal junk in my life influence my view of others.  sorry.

Quote from: Zeek on December 23, 2009, 04:42:12 PM

Quote from: CHB on December 23, 2009, 04:16:31 PM

Zeek, I don't think willie meant any sarcasm, it is just his way of writing.

i've deleted my post.  letting personal junk in my life influence my view of others.  sorry.

:HeartThrob:

lomarah,

Perhaps you might find this helpful.  :2c:

It was written by a friend and she let me post it to my MySpace page so I don't think she'll mind me sharing it with you.

How does the King of Heaven deal with those who do not forgive?

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=368111335&blogId=466307247 (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=368111335&blogId=466307247)

Blessings,
Christine

 :sigh: willie... I just don't know. I can't even keep up with reading your posts let alone replying to them. Basically we disagree on a lot of things and we agree on others. You are welcome to have your opinions on things and I will have mine.

FYI there are reasons I am so exhausted all the time but I really don't feel like going into it.

Quote from: sparrow on December 23, 2009, 04:35:20 AM

Quote from: friendofmankind on December 23, 2009, 03:54:05 AM
Again im not dissing anyone, far from it, but ive heard all the so called great Bible teachers all my life with their "this means that and that means this" and none of them can come to any agreement.
It does more harm than good, it confuses people.

I want to write this for the benefit of the original poster, lest he get drawn in by long debates which really dont do anyone any good, but rather most of the time cause friction and disputes and are mostly a waste of time in my opinion.

The truth is we all have to give an account of OURSELVES to God and work out our OWN salvation.
When God judges me and says "Hey why did you do that you knew it was wrong for you", and if i say "Oh sorry God, thingy told to me that was the way it was and i listened to him instead".  I wonder what God will say?
And of course the simple truth is that we can have great knowledge to figure out great mysteries and faith to move mountains, but without love were NOTHING...not - Not even a piece of dung.  NOTHING.
And i see far to much gibbering going on and people professing themselves to be great teachers and even prophets and not enough love.

I have felt the saving power of love and found it sufficient to conquer anything the world can lay upon me, but knowledge and wisdom (as the st says) will pass away, and in the end only hope faith and love will remain, the greatest being love.
Knowledge helps if its sound knowledge, but how often does anyone preach sound knowledge and not their own internal giberish?  Something they thought up themselves which another 100 passages of scripture can found to refute what they say?
The basics of UR is sound knowledge, because it is truth, but as for the rest of working everything out (even things that dont apply to us today) isnt essential.  St Paul said that ALL scipture is God breathed and USEFUL, but he didnt say it was essential, and i sincerly hope that people reading this might cloak themselves with love and think about going out to help others and give love to those that need it, rather than spend another day sitting at a PC indoors, isolated from the real world, debating on things that could be debated on forever and a conclusion never be found.

The letter does kill.  It almost killed me.

I just have to say one thing:  amen, brother.
oh yeah, and also: Peace to you.  :HeartThrob:

Thanks for saying exactly what was in my own heart.  :HeartThrob: Enough of this debating about this and that, all I want to do is give and receive love.  :cloud9:

Quote from: Chris on December 23, 2009, 06:43:38 PM
lomarah,

Perhaps you might find this helpful.  :2c:

It was written by a friend and she let me post it to my MySpace page so I don't think she'll mind me sharing it with you.

How does the King of Heaven deal with those who do not forgive?

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=368111335&blogId=466307247 (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=368111335&blogId=466307247)

Blessings,
Christine

Thanks Christine, that was very insightful and helpful.  :cloud9:

lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

willieH: Hi CHB! :hithere:

Quote from: willieH
I have not suggested that we are not "chastened" -- that is what THIS LIFE is all about! ...

Quote from: CHB on December 23, 2009, 04:16:31 PMHi willie,

I have a question?  I agree that we go through the fire in this life but do you think that it might continue on and even after the return of Christ?

Let me attempt an answer in these words...

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST ...IS... a CONSUMING FIRE.  The WORD of God contains the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

The "knowledge of GOOD and EVIL" is THAT which is BEING REVEALED on Earth VIA the Father YHVH ...and... the Children of YHVH

The process (and results) of the manifestation of EVIL is TEMPORAL [time]... and ALL that is amidst TIME concerning EVIL, is CONSUMED, ...deed by deed, ...to INCLUDE TIME itself...

You and I as beings are ALWAYS UNCHANGED... The process of TIME, is that which makes us AWARE...  I am 64yrs old.  In the SPIRIT which is the actual being that ...I AM... I have not aged, and will NEVER PERISH.  However, the VEHICLE (my body) in which my Spirit is placed (by GOD), is decaying and will perish...

The WORD of YHVH -- which IS the Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL -- denotes many things BOTH of GOOD and of EVIL, in  which the CHILDREN are PARTICIPANTS...

However it also notes that ONLY that which is FOUNDED upon GOOD (CHRIST), shall abide (gold, silver, precious stones - that which is INVALUEABLE)... the rest (wood, hay, stubble, that which is VALUELESS) is CONSUMED -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

That which is IN physical EARTH, and IN linear (measureable/temporal) "TIME" are VALUELESS...
That which is IN spiritual EARTH, and IN nonlinear (immeasurable/infinite) "ETERNITY" is INVALUABLE.

Quote from: CHB on December 23, 2009, 04:16:31 PMFor instance there are people in this life who don't know God and have no desire to know him and there are those who are evil and never have a bad thing happen to them while they live. Will these people have to endure suffering the way we do now, at some point in time?

These are only those who have YET to be DRAWN to CHRIST...  They are suffering... for when CHRIST is revealed IN them... they shall bear the remorse that we cannot SEE presently.  Just because WE do not SEE a "suffering"... does not negate the fact of its presence.  Let me give you an example>>>

EXAMPLE --  Just before his death to cancer... my father was in EXTREME PAIN... but he NEVER displayed it.  Because I could not SEE HIS PAIN, did not mean that it was NOT THERE!

Quote from: CHB on December 23, 2009, 04:16:31 PMIf the LOF is experienced only in this life, there will be some who are evil that will never experience it, unless they experience it after they have been resurrected.

"THIS LIFE" includes BOTH RESURRECTIONS... The "1st Resurrection" are those who have been given the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST -- John 6:44, within their temporal and physical lifespan.  The "2nd RESURRECTION" is for all OTHERS... which SHALL take place before the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY -- John 12:48

In either case... the WORD is the Judge... and the EXAMPLE of the WORD, given IN the WORD, is that instead of JUDGING -- John 8:3-11 -- the WORD chooses to JUSTIFY by ITS perfect sacrifice (on behalf of) the one which stands in JUDGMENT, by TAKING the SIN AWAY -- John 1:29 -- as those who do not deserve to JUDGE, ...Drop the UNJUSTIFIED stones of JUDGMENT, desisting FROM IT.

:Peace:

willieH: Hi lomarah... :hithere:

Quote from: lomarah on December 23, 2009, 07:56:08 PM
:sigh: willie... I just don't know. I can't even keep up with reading your posts let alone replying to them. Basically we disagree on a lot of things and we agree on others. You are welcome to have your opinions on things and I will have mine.

:sigh: lomarah...

I do not write answers to you, for you alone... I write for others to consider OTHER than the TRADITIONAL positions you hold, which are yet found in the view of MANY which have come to KNOW the truth of the Salvation of ALL (UR)... yet still profess in part, "their doings" in part, make it happen... :pitiful:

You are more than welcome to your beliefs.  It is not on my agenda to change you in any way... Stick with what you believe... :nod:  Until GOD brings about a change (if any) to them.  :Sparkletooth:

I spent approximately 24-25 yrs in the Babylon church system... and QUESTIONED them continually, until their "beating around the bush" replies to those questions noted to me that they had no answers to them... and am no longer interested in its supposed "spiritual" beliefs...  :dontknow:

Hopefully you shall remember these WORDS... MANY shall call CHRIST Lord and find rejection from Him -- Matt 7:22-23 -- and MANY shall come in His name FALSELY -- Matt 24:5 --  Full of themselves, not full of Him...  :sigh:

Also know this new sister... as long as I see BABYLON's "TRADITION" presented on the TM forum... it will be objected to, by me...  :thumbsup:

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH
"THIS LIFE" includes BOTH RESURRECTIONS... The "1st Resurrection" are those who have been given the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST -- John 6:44, within their temporal and physical lifespan.  The "2nd RESURRECTION" is for all OTHERS... which SHALL take place before the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY -- John 12:48

Hi willie,

I think I get what you are saying now, this brain is a little slow sometimes.  :winkgrin:  Thanks much.  :happy3:

CHB

Quote from: jabcat on December 23, 2009, 08:56:09 PM
lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

Thanks jabcat.  :cloud9:

willieH: Hi FOMK...  :laughing7:

Because of the absence of SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY, in your "suggestion"...

I challenge what you say below...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: friendofmankind on December 23, 2009, 03:54:05 AMThe basics of UR is sound knowledge, because it is truth, but as for the rest of working everything out (even things that dont apply to us today) isnt essential.  St Paul said that ALL scipture is God breathed and USEFUL, but he didnt say it was essential

I believe this to be foolish and dangerous counsel...  :sigh:  --- Where does PAUL note or suggest, that ALL Scripture is USEFUL --- but "potentially" NOT ESSENTIAL?   :thumbdown:  It is YOU which ADD (your suggestion) to Paul's words: "but he didn't SAY it was ESSENTIAL"...  :thumbdown:

In answer to "SATAN" --- CHRIST noted the ESSENTIALITY of ALL SCRIPTURE:  

Matt 4:4 -- Luke 4:4 -- Deut 8:3 -- Man shall not live by BREAD ALONE, but by -- EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the MOUTH of GOD

So much for your suggestion...  :thumbdown:

If you have not bothered to name a reference in GOD's WORD, ...then is it not in fact, YOU -- which has decided that Scripture is potentially -- "useful" but not ESSENTIAL?  :JCThink:

Upon what authority OTHER than YOUR OWN, do you base this FOMK?  :dontknow:  I look forward to you naming that "authority"... :declare:

You go on and on about the USELESSNESS of debate, and then subtley "debate" the process of LEARNING, which INCLUDES sharing as well as teaching?  :thumbdown:

Instructing those who would be decieved by YOUR SUGGESTION, to "work things out"?

Here is what CHRIST said -->

John 5:19 & 30  I can, OF Mine OWN SELF, ...DO  ....NOTHING...

So He is herein teaching that HE was NOT "working anything out"... rather, He was DEPENDENT upon the FATHER, through Him and IN HIM, to "WORK it out"...  :dontknow:

And if HE was not about "DOING" (working out) that which was unfolding in HIS MINISTRY -- COMPLETELY dependent upon the FATHER, ...are we to think WE are MORE than HE, by "working things out"?  :mshock:

A hug and pat on the back, and then call this emptiness, sufficient?  :sigh:  IMO -- Your words are VERY misleading...  :sigh:

The biggest problem with your suggestion is certainly not the admonition to LOVE... which IS the ESSENTIAL ingredient... for without LOVE, the Father YHVH is NOT PRESENT, for GOD IS LOVE -- 1 John 4:8

However... your suggestion is to ABANDON the search for TRUTH (which in part is gain in sharing/discussion with others), and instead --- "exchanging" the KNOWLEDGE within the WORD, for the huggy-kissey emptiness which is present in most BELIEVERS within the "CHURCH system of Churchianity"...  :mshock:

And in this UNINFORMED state of "bliss"... think that we have found that which GOD desires of us within our walk?  :dontknow:

While it is quite true that LOVE is where we must found ALL worthwhile and enduring relationships... it is also TRUE that there is FOOLISHNESS within, should we opt to remain UNIFORMED to the dangers of being MISLED by those who, with the deceitful approach of "LOVE", ...can and DO, take the SHEEP to their demise in varying ways...

It has been TRAGICALLY evidenced MANY TIMES, by such ("WOLVES in SHEEPS CLOTHING")  as JIM JONES and DAVID KORESH... whose UNINFORMED and UNQUESTIONING -- SHEEP, swallowed hook, line and sinker, ...the FOOLISHNESS of your suggestion... TAKING that FOOLISHNESS to their DEATHS...  :sigh:

Not to mention the FINANCIAL devastations which occur DAILY within MANY lives, to the ENRICHING of CHARLETONS which, via the GUISE of "LOVE"... line their pockets with the pennies of the POOR...  :sigh:  Lavishing in their deceit... while others scratch to gain a meal, after having given "in LOVE" to these DECIEVERS ...which then without conscience, swim in their pools to the tune of the POVERTY of their sincere yet FOOLISH, ...supporters...

Again... you sound in the quote above, as subtle to me as does MATT SLICK... Go to CARM or read a few threads which note the DECEIT of his teachings here on TENTMAKER...

His teachings, note "ESSENTIAL" Doctrines... without naming any authority which has CATEGORIZED them as "ESSENTIAL", other than himself... (much as YOU do in this thread).

willieH: Hi sister CHB... :hithere:

Quote from: CHB on December 24, 2009, 02:45:35 AM

Quote from: willieH
"THIS LIFE" includes BOTH RESURRECTIONS... The "1st Resurrection" are those who have been given the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST -- John 6:44, within their temporal and physical lifespan.  The "2nd RESURRECTION" is for all OTHERS... which SHALL take place before the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY -- John 12:48

Hi willie,

I think I get what you are saying now, this brain is a little slow sometimes.  :winkgrin:  Thanks much.  :happy3:

CHB

You are more than welcome dear sister...  :cloud9:

And you are hardly "slow of brain" :mnah:

willieH: Hi FOMK... :hithere:

:laugh:  Gimme a break...  :laughing7:

Quote from: friendofmankind on December 23, 2009, 03:54:05 AMAgain im not dissing anyone, far from it, but ive heard all the so called great Bible teachers all my life with their "this means that and that means this" and none of them can come to any agreement.
It does more harm than good, it confuses people.

Hmmm...  :JCThink:  ...and so, we are to just follow your "undissing" suggestion, and jettison all teaching at your "suggestion"?  :dontknow:

Is not your "suggestion", ...a designed and pointed admonition, which, although BRIEF, is in fact -- an "attempt to teach"? :rolleye:

From Merriam-Webster:

ad·mo·ni·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌad-mə-ˈni-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English amonicioun, from Anglo-French amonicion, from Latin admonition-, admonitio, from admonēre
Date: 14th century
1 : gentle or friendly reproof
2 : counsel or warning against fault or oversight

:scratchhead:

Quote from: Zeek on December 23, 2009, 03:39:30 PM
delete

Hmmm... everyone saw this but me, eh?  :sigh:

Did I miss some KIND words fromya Zeek?  :Peace2:

:thinking:  To my recollection, I was not even addressing you in this thread, was I?  :dunno:

Quote from: jabcat on December 23, 2009, 08:56:09 PM
lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

:mnah: ...I kinda really disagree with your comment here, James... so much as calling this "cop-out" ...productive... (not amongst MORE PRODUCTIVE MATTERS)

What would be "productive" -- would be lomarah, taking some time, and answering my questions, as I DID, with hers...  :sigh:

Pretty UNPRODUCTIVE to call abandoning the discussion, and subliminally calling such as, "we disagree, seeya"... as, ...productive... :pitiful:

The Gift of Salvation !   NO POOF

      Discover for yourself what Scriptures actually teach about the work of Christ.  There is one thing most hold in common: the confidence that man can use his own " Positive Volition" or "Free Will" to accept Christ and get himself "saved" .
   More than a century ago a great man of God, A. P. Adams, penned the following: "I wish to add a word further in regard to the Salvation of ALL men, suggested by the following extract which I clipped from one of my exchanges.  The extract is as follows: The Rev. B.W. Ward, the popular Boston evangelist, and efficient superintendent of the Bleeker St. Mission.  Thus beautifully illustrates the Gift of Salvation: A friend of mine invited me into a jewelry store and asked the clerk for samples of their pocket knives. Placing the price of he best one  alongside of it, on the counter, he said, Ward, I want to make you a little present. There's a knife and there is the price of it, make your choice. Take which one you will as a momento from me.  ( Just like mike saying with a dollar bill in hand, just reach out and take it.) Now, said the evangelist, whose knife was that while it lay there on the counter? It wasn't mine. It would become mind by my deciding to accept it; but without such an act on my part it was not for me. So of salvation. Jesus has paid the price, but the sinner must decide whether or not he will reach forth and take it before it becomes his.  ( Now is this what Your Religion Teaches ?)

   In this extract it will be seen that the salvation of the individual is made to depend upon his own decision. THE SINNER MUST DECIDE, and as he decides so will his future destiny be to all eternity.  Thus ONE'S salvation is practically made to depend on one's self.  God and Christ have done or are doing their part and now they simply wait for the sinner's decision.  By the way, how long did God wait for the ' decision ' of Saul of Tarsus when [ it pleased God to call him ?]

Most people, however, would accept the above extract as a correct presentation of the case, and would assent thereto without any hesitation. But there is a fatal defect in the illustration. The case of the one choosing the knife or {Michael's and Dave's story of the dollar bill } is NOT PARALLEL TO THAT OF THE SINNER CHOOSING SALVATION, because the former has his EYES WIDE OPEN  and knows full well the value of what is presented to him for his choice, while the LATTER IS BLINDED, and knoweth not what he does, 'but if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost; in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ ...should shine unto them (II Cor. 4: 3-4 ).
" The bible plainly teaches that fallen man is blinded to the truth; the soulical man receives not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned, and the soulical man has not the spirit.
This the sinner does not realize and appreciate the value of the salvation that is offered to him.  In the first place, he does not know that he is lost, and hence feels no need of salvation.  Secondly, this sinner does not know that the salvation offered him in Christ is worth anything.  All he has to go by in determining its worth is the lives of those who profess to possess it, and they for the most part, are very deficient illustrations of its merit.

           Furthermore the sinner is surrounded by circumstances entirely adverse to his acceptance of Christ. And finally, worse than all, 'the mind of the flesh' a corrupt nature, an 'evil heart of unbelief,' a body of death,' that leans toward the BAD and opposes the good continually: and mark you, all these things are circumstances over which the individual has NO control and for which he is NOT to blame.  "Again, mark you, that if he overcomes these unfavorable circumstances and in spite of them does accept Christ, it must be by some power OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF, for in himself he would never have any power for his own deliverance.  This is the teaching of the 7th chapter of Romans.  God must deliver him if he is delivered at ALL he must bring him to the knowledge of his lost condition, so that he will feel his need of a Saviour, and he must give him repentance and faith. God must open his eyes so that he shall not only see the need, but also the priceless value of salvation, that like the apostle Paul, he will be willing to count all things but dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus his Lord. 
   " And he must be endowed with power to overcome the evil around and within him.  ALL this help must come from God, and must be imparted to the sinner before he can make the slightest movement toward salvation.  Are there any such elements as these in the case of the man choosing the knife?  Is it not plain that that illustration and the case of the sinner are NOT PARALLEL at all?  And yet just such illustrations are constantly presented as setting forth exactly the case of the sinner in "his" choice or rejection of salvation in Christ!  The fact is there are many factors to be taken into account in the regeneration and new creation of a human being.  It is not such a small matter as picking up a little present that a friend passes over to you. Hence these illustrations are very faulty and misleading " -----------end quote.
   When addressing the unsaved, an evangelist often drew an analogy between Gods sending the gospel to the sinner, and a sick man in bed, with some healing medicine on a table by his side; all he needs to do is reach forth his hand and take it,  ( like Michael's or Dave's dollar bill story )
But in order for this illustration to be in any wise true to the picture which scriptures gives us of the fallen and deprived sinner, the sick man in bed must be described as one who is Blind(Eph. 4:18),so that he can not see the medicine, his hand paralyzed(Rom.5:6) so that he is unable to reach forth for it, and his heart not only devoid of all confidence in the medicine but filled with hatred against the physician himself (Jn. 15:18 ).  Oh, what superficial views of man's desperate plight are not entertained!

Christ come here NOT to help those who were willing to help themselves, or even those willing to be helped, but to do for people what they were incapable of doing for them selves: "to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house". (Isa. 42:7)
   Some one will ask, "will God save men eventually against their will?"  The answer is NO !  He will have no need to do that, for ALL men will be 100% willing when God reveals Himself to them.  Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened.  We have only to consider the case of Saul of Tarsus to understand the miraculous power of the Lord to change the leopard's spots and melt the heart of stone. {new-cov.Jer 31:31 or Ez.36:26-27 ).  There are those who suppose that God could not convert a soul unless that depraved and lost soul gives to almighty God that permission. ( NOT ). I only wish they would ask the Apostle Paul, that Great despiser of Christ and hater of His church, that persecutor of Christians, who while on his way to Damascus was suddenly cast to the ground and converted (turned ).  No man was ever more hateful toward Christ than was Saul of Tarsus, yet, when his turn came (to see the light), he changed in an instant, crying out in fear and trembling and with bitter repentance, "Who art thou, Lord? " and "What will thou have me do ?" Did God ask Saul of Tarsus whether or not he wanted to be saved ?, or did He say to Ananias, "He is a chosen vessel unto me to bear My name before the gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel"  (Acts 9:15 )

It is only God who can change the human heart, and when God wills to change every single human heart in earth and in hell, each will be changed in an INSTANT (Twinkle ).
Jer,31:31-34 Plus Ez.36:26-27
   
   

Behold, the days come, saith the lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their "hearts"; and will be their God, and they shall be my people, 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, Saying, know the Lord: for they shall ALL know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their inquity, and I will remember their sin ( singular ) no more.
EZ. 36: 26-27 says, A new heart also will I give you, and 'ALL'. a new spirit will I put WITHIN YOU: and  I will take away the stony heart out of you 'flesh' and I will give you a heart of flesh.  And I will put my spirit WITHIN you, and CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, and ye shall keep my judgments, and DO THEM...29 And I will save you from ALL  your uncleannesses, ( Sin ). Can you understand ALL This....?
   Taken from the book "Saviour of the world series" By J. Preston Eby  Just What Do You Mean " Man is a Free Moral Agent!   Typed by Lee Damboise II

Quote from: willieH on December 26, 2009, 11:01:23 PM

Quote from: jabcat on December 23, 2009, 08:56:09 PM
lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

:mnah: ...I kinda really disagree with your comment here, James... so much as calling this "cop-out" ...productive... (not amongst MORE PRODUCTIVE MATTERS)

What would be "productive" -- would be lomarah, taking some time, and answering my questions, as I DID, with hers...  :sigh:

Pretty UNPRODUCTIVE to call abandoning the discussion, and subliminally calling such as, "we disagree, seeya"... as, ...productive... :pitiful:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I can enjoy discussing, but I don't enjoy endless, unproductive arguing with people - especially if any specific individual only appears open to what they already believe.  I'll discuss things if I so choose and feel led, otherwise, I don't waste my time or energy, and as I said to lomorah, I personally don't recommend it to others either.  

Quote from: jabcat on December 26, 2009, 11:51:22 PM
I can enjoy discussing, but I don't enjoy endless, unproductive arguing with people - especially if any specific individual only appears open to what they already believe.  I'll discuss things if I so choose and feel led, otherwise, I don't waste my time or energy, and as I said to lomorah, I personally don't recommend it to others either.  

That's fine... you are welcome to your personal observations, bro... As I see it, ANY discussion into which I enter, I shall potentially LEARN something that I did not know prior to IT, and OFTENTIMES do... :nod:

You are welcome to think it is a WASTE of TIME and energy, as DOES lomarah... I believe discussion (which is an interaction of sometimes, conflicting ideas), is a GREAT foundational LEARNING tool.

The example of this is found throughout the ministry of CHRIST... Many times the "teachers" proposed things TO HIM... and His answers were found IN CONFLICT to their "beliefs"...  :dontknow:

Irregardless of your opinion (as suggested subliminally ---> "especially any individual only appears OPEN to what they already believe")  ...I am every bit as "open" as you or lomarah might  consider yourselves...  :happygrin:

I am just a bit more confident and grounded within the proximity of my journey (not that you are not grounded), then either of you...  There are many things that you both note to be UNSURE of... :dunno:

I often make the recommendation, that ANYONE reading my words, RESEARCH them -- COMPARE them to REASON -- COMPARE them to the SCRIPTURES... as well as noting that it is NOT my "agenda" to change anyone, nor do I EVER insist they BELIEVE as do I... :mnah:

Many are intimidated by the detail and confidence that I am able to project... and when their "opinions" are challenged by me, instead of responding to those challenges, they make excuses or just resort to "running out the back door"... without answering the questions that challenge their position... Pretty typical...

I have no problem with that.  My words are for those whom GOD intends to hear them, according to their place within His PURPOSE...  You are welcome to reject them ALL, makes no difference to me...

In any event, one way or the other, ...I consider you my brother in the mean time... and mean no harm to you whatsoever... even though within a decision that causes you to (inconfidently) retreat from my questions, ...you might percieve such...  :friendstu: :declare:

:Peace: be unto you...

Quote from: lomarah on December 24, 2009, 08:13:05 PM

Quote from: jabcat on December 23, 2009, 08:56:09 PM
lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

Thanks jabcat.  :cloud9:

You're welcome.  Not to derail the LOF thread, it probably needs to get back on track, but I've been identifying with some of your posts regarding Christmas.  You and your family have a great day, whatever you call it (or don't  :laughing7:).   James. 

Quote from: jabcat on December 27, 2009, 01:25:39 AM

Quote from: lomarah on December 24, 2009, 08:13:05 PM

Quote from: jabcat on December 23, 2009, 08:56:09 PM
lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

Thanks jabcat.  :cloud9:

You're welcome.  Not to derail the LOF thread, it probably needs to get back on track, but I've been identifying with some of your posts regarding Christmas.  You and your family have a great day, whatever you call it (or don't  :laughing7:).   James. 

:cloud9: Thanks James, we had a lovely day and I hope yours was just as great.   :dsunny:

I survived going to the inlaws another year, thanks!  That's actually been a bit of a Lake of Fire experience for me through the years...you know, bad attitudes, needing to be more loving and all that.   :mblush:  God is good.

Quote from: jabcat on December 27, 2009, 04:26:33 AM
I survived going to the inlaws another year, thanks!  That's actually been a bit of a Lake of Fire experience for me through the years...you know, bad attitudes, needing to be more loving and all that.   :mblush:  God is good.

Haha James! Right now we're living with my in-laws. Thankfully I was blessed with a great mother in law, she is one of the sweetest women I know! (A lot of people envy me for that lol) Of course, that doesn't mean that we haven't had some fire too (on both sides... i'm sure living with us isn't a piece of cake 24/7 lol). What I LOVE about my fairly new UR beliefs is that when I am extremely annoyed with someone I just remind myself that they are my true brother/sister and that when they are acting miserable toward others it's because they feel miserable inside and then instead of feeling annoyed or angry I begin to feel empathy and love for them.  :cloud9: (Of course it's a work in progress...  :winkgrin:)
Glad to hear you survived another year, all the best to you!

His anger (indignation or displeasure) is but for a moment (the wages of sin), His favor (goodwill) is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning ... (Psalm 30:5)

For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison ... (2 Corinthians 4:17)

But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation ... (1 Peter 4:13)

He was buried, and He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures ... (1 Corinthians 15:4)

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection ... (Romans 6:5)

I consider that the sufferings of this present time, are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us ... (Romans 8:18)

Always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body ... (2 Corinthians 4:10)

That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death ... (Philippians 3:10)

He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, that we may live before Him . (Hosea 6:2) In His Presence!

"Let us not satisfy ourselves with a knowledge that is spiritually ignorant and lacking power; for the Death of Death is in the Death of Christ."

This is the time for PURGING, CLEANSING AND PURIFYING. It is the realm of qualifying for, and the preparation of; SONSHIP, after the order of Melchizedek. Thus, Come Lord Jesus! NOW is the time for the REFINER'S FIRE and FULLERS' SOAP.

However, if you desire to wait for judgment (Death; not knowing the day, or hour) and the Resurrection from the Grave, rest assured that He is still the Fullers' soap and the Refiner of the Soul, who will wash you clean – for that which is filthy and impure cannot enter.

I believe without any imputation of uncharitableness that every person will be awakened under the countenance of the Spirit, and will fall upon their knees in due season; each in their own era.

peacemaker

willieH: Hi PM...  :cloud9:

Quote from: peacemaker on December 27, 2009, 09:04:25 PM
His anger (indignation or displeasure) is but for a moment (the wages of sin), His favor (goodwill) is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning ... (Psalm 30:5)

For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison ... (2 Corinthians 4:17)

But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation ... (1 Peter 4:13)

He was buried, and He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures ... (1 Corinthians 15:4)

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection ... (Romans 6:5)

I consider that the sufferings of this present time, are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us ... (Romans 8:18)

Always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body ... (2 Corinthians 4:10)

That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death ... (Philippians 3:10)

He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, that we may live before Him . (Hosea 6:2) In His Presence!

"Let us not satisfy ourselves with a knowledge that is spiritually ignorant and lacking power; for the Death of Death is in the Death of Christ."

This is the time for PURGING, CLEANSING AND PURIFYING. It is the realm of qualifying for, and the preparation of; SONSHIP, after the order of Melchizedek. Thus, Come Lord Jesus! NOW is the time for the REFINER'S FIRE and FULLERS' SOAP.

However, if you desire to wait for judgment (Death; not knowing the day, or hour) and the Resurrection from the Grave, rest assured that He is still the Fullers' soap and the Refiner of the Soul, who will wash you clean – for that which is filthy and impure cannot enter.

I believe without any imputation of uncharitableness that every person will be awakened under the countenance of the Spirit, and will fall upon their knees in due season; each in their own era.

peacemaker

Very good points!   I commend you for your use of SCRIPTURE...  :happyclap:  

So many ...seek to found their ideas or observations by their own words and therein avoiding the use of it... but how can TRUTH be established WITHOUT IT?  For the WORD ...IS... TRUTH! -- John 14:6

This is the realm of sorrow... where men are seen in transgression of the COMMAND of God... not the realm from which WE EMERGED, and to which WE SHALL RETURN -- Luke 15:1-32 --- Most fail to see the TRUTH that -- [AT FIRST] -- the "LOST" SHEEP was NOT LOST (for it was originally numbered amongst the "100"), then became LOST, then became  FOUND BY the SHEPHERD (no longer lost -- and was NOT FOUND of the SHEEP's "doing") -- same with the "LOST COIN", same with the "LOST SON"... and NONE of these were "tormented" upon being FOUND (restored to the OWNER OF THEM)... rather the COMPLETE OPPOSITE occurs --- a CELEBRATION!  :boogie:

It is within the state of BEING "LOST", that "torment" exists...  :dontknow:

We are "owned" by GOD... and He seeks to regain, that which is BECOME LOST -- Luke 19:10

1 Cor 6:19-20 -- ye are NOT your own -- for ye are BOUGHT with a PRICE...

1 Cor 7:23 -- ye are BOUGHT with a PRICE...