Just the Elect Will be Saved LOL

[Tim B]

Fundamentalist posted this over at City-Data:

Let's not go there. We see nothing in scripture where God desires for people to be in hell. Scripture clearly says, that God does not delight in the death of the wicked. God loves everyone and wants none to perish. I believe Jesus did not die on the cross for the whole world but for His elect who He predestined to be in heaven but there is no verse that God desires for men to go to hell. This is just another mystery of God which in our perverted, fallen state we are in we could never know nor comprehend. We should not fill in the blanks; we should only go from scripture. Much safer.

LOL Can God possibly wish all people to be saved but only die for The Elect??
I'm glad he at least disagreed with the original post which claimed that God desired some people to perish.
If you would like to see the post it's at the very bottom of the first page:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/683035-jesus-willing-some-shall-perish.html

[SPOKENFOR]

LOL! Yeah, I have read many of Fundamentalist post on city data. Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..

[WhiteWings]

The way I see the original ET bible was completely blank. And now it's 2300 pages.... :winkgrin:

The good part is that at least he doesn't claim God wants people in hell to boost His own glory.
Good step forward IMO.

But he contradicts himself in a single paragraph.
God doesn't want anyone in hell. But he predestined some elect. Elect=group that stay out of hell. That automaticly means the others are elected to be cast in hell.

[SQ]

This always amazes me how God does not want anyone to perish, but yet most will perish according to the Calvinist.

[SPOKENFOR]

The way I see the original ET bible was completely blank. And now it's 2300 pages.... :winkgrin:

The good part is that at least he doesn't claim God wants people in hell to boost His own glory.
Good step forward IMO.

But he contradicts himself in a single paragraph.
God doesn't want anyone in hell. But he predestined some elect. Elect=group that stay out of hell. That automaticly means the others are elected to be cast in hell.

I remember when I use to believe that God elected some to salvation and others to hell forever. I remember even reading that passage that says God has mercy on who he wants to..The one about Esau and Jacob..I really believed he was saying that through that story..

[legoman]

This always amazes me how God does not want anyone to perish, but yet most will perish according to the Calvinist.

If the Calvinist is true to his beliefs, he will come to the "logically correct" conclusion that God only wants some to be saved, since "obviously" only some are saved.

However many "Calvinists" are only "half-hearted" Calvinists, and still cling to the contradiction that God loves all yet predestines some to hell.

At least the "fry-hards" (Thanks WW  :thumbsup:) are consistent, though unimaginably cruel in their thinking.

But we shouldn't be too hard on Fundamentalist and friends.  They haven't been given eyes to see yet.

Peace...

[sven]

LOL Can God possibly wish all people to be saved but only die for The Elect??
I'm glad he at least disagreed with the original post which claimed that God desired some people to perish.

good post, hadn't realized the absurdity of this view yet

[markp64]

This always amazes me how God does not want anyone to perish, but yet most will perish according to the Calvinist.

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Mat 7:14 Because [32] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

[markp64]

Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..

Do you guys not get it. Always quoting that Jesus died because God loved the world. Can you not see this clearly. Apparently, I am missing something.

Yes He died for everybody. But it is a free GIFT. Some do not want to partake of the free gift. If there are those that do not want the free gift, than they do not want it. Yes, He offered it to the whole world. However there are those, in the world, that just do not want it.

Do any of you get this. I am sure you will tell me that I don't get it. However, I did accept the free gift that was offered. I have friends (the world) who have not accepted the free gift (salvation).


Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.

I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period

God Bless

[WhiteWings]

The wide road/gate leads to destruction.
I think noone on this forum will deny the verses you quoted.

But what exactly is destruction?
What is destroyed?
Does it take 'a while' or forever?
How is the destruction done? A slap on the wrist or (eternal) torture in literal fire? Or something in between?

None of that is answered in the verses quoted by you. So the only thing it proves/mentions is that there will be different destinies for different people. It doesn't prove ET. It doesn't prove UR.

[WhiteWings]

I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period

God Bless

Not everyone wants your tickets. Not everybody want the tickets Jesus offers. The difference is that you stop offereing. Jesus doesn't. And eventually all will be in super-bowl. At least that;s what the verses say:

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save his people from their sins.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 17:4 I have given you glory on the earth, having done all the work which you gave me to do.

So Jesus said all will accept the free super-bowl ticket. Eventually....

[WhiteWings]

Me again. This time with the verses found in my signature.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
-> All man. Clear enough. But I'm aware many claim all means: the elect or few from every race/country/tribe
-> will have If I would say "I don't care what God want, I do what I want and He is powerless to stop me" I would be called a heretic. But the same people say  the 'will have' of God is will never come true.
-> and The verse also states people will know the truth. But yes some say than when you are in hell you know the truth but God won't listen to you anymore.

BTW Jesus claims otherwise:
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
-> Humm, weird verse. I read so often Jesus came for the believers. And in this verse I read He doesn't judge the unbeliever. That is every person not being a Christian.
I see an even smaller possibility of 'elect' in that verse.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

To use your superbowl analogy it is declared that everyone goes to superbowl.
If God declares something is He actually begging for a cookie like a little puppy?
Or?
Isaiah 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

No matter if there is 0% or 100% free will. Or anything in between: God stated in strong word that somehow His wish will be a fact. Either He drags you to superbowl (0% free will) or is patient (100% free will).
But in the end all are in superbowl.
Now just hope we get no war in heaven because referee made a wrong decision  :laughing7:

[sparrow]

Wide is the road that leads to destruction.
YES. MOST in this world are walking down that road.
It is not the HUMAN BEINGS that will be destroyed, My GOD!!!!
It is their DROSS. The impurities. Their FALSE Beliefs!

The narrow gate leads to... what??? LIFE!

This argument over "eternal torture" is so completely ridiculous and it is holding everyone up. Do you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of a small group of people standing outside a great hall of learning, and they are trying to stop people from entering in by starting some ridiculous argument about who is ALLOWED to go in and screaming about how there are a LOT of people who won't BE ALLOWED to go in. And there are all these passersby... "Who the hell wants to go in there, with all of those angry, screaming people anyway...?" Instead, the people outside of the doorway, should be laying out the welcome signs and shouting "HELLO FRIENDS! Look at what we have found! WE have found a wonderful great hall of learning! Come! COME INSIDE!!! ALL ARE WELCOME! ALL ARE WELCOME!!"

We have a LOT to learn. And this ET argument is just a giant boulder in the path.

BUT, regardless....God's plan will not be hindered.

Those who are not putting their faith and trust in Him NOW... are missing out on a great deal. They are walking on the road of destruction, instead of the road of LIFE!! My God, it isn't about suffering eternal torture. That is not the point of this life. To choose whether or not to be eternally tortured or not. SHeesh! That is INSANE! When the truth enters your heart, you cling to Him and want to cling to Him more and more as you walk about your life. Sin is seen for what it is... If you find happiness in sin, then you do not see sin in the right perspective. Sin is dead.
Sin LEADS to death and destruction. Jesus is LIFE! So many walking that road of destruction ruled by SIN. God wants us to cling to HIM. Cling to LIFE! Sin is here for a reason. It is a teacher. YES we are learning. We are living in this contrast of love and non-love so that we may learn WHO God is!

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."

YES. This is pointing to the time when ALL of CREATION has been restored and will be ABLE to live in harmony FOREVER. Because we will have LEARNED what we came to learn, after being subjected to this world of the knowledge of good and evil. All knees will bow. All will come to the foot of the cross and realize just HOW LOVED we are!!!!

The TREE of knowledge of good and evil was planted in the garden for A REASON y'all. The fall of mankind was planned from the beginning. This is ALL part of God's plan.

"Adam and Eve" did not TRULY understand. They were ignorant of how TRULY magnificent their Creator is. They were ignorant of WHO the Creator is. They were ignorant of the difference between LOVE and NON-LOVE. This is what THEY (WE) needed to learn. We HAD to come and put on mortal so we could STAND BACK and SEE our Creator for WHO He really is, otherwise we would have NEVER known. Otherwise, we would have been ignorant children. God would not have us be ignorant. Ignorance, is *NOT* bliss. KNOWLEDGE is bliss! A HUGE part of the GLORY of "heaven" is coming out of ignorance into the KNOWLEDGE of WHO are Father is, and that LOVE conquers all. It's the ONLY way that we can finally put on INCORRUPTION, so that MORTALITY can put on IMMORTALITY. God's plan is FLAWLESS. It has ALWAYS BEEN flawless.

We are talking about the CREATOR of the universe... and some folks think he is going to torture His creation for all eternity? Give Him a little more credit than that. His plan is PERFECT as HE IS PERFECT.

You'll see.

[Beloved Servant]

My! My! Sparrow.
You're frisky this morning!

[sparrow]

 :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Must be the new healthfood

(http://hazel8500.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/can-o-worms.gif)

[sparrow]

those are some cute little worms.
Who could ever eat them??
lol.

[Molly]

Those who are not putting their faith and trust in Him NOW... are missing out on a great deal.

Boy, is that ever the truth!  No one would turn their backs on Him if they knew who He is and what they are missing.





7Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

8For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

--Jer 17

:bgdance:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: GO Sparrow, Go Sparrow!  :cheerleader:  :winkgrin: :thumbsup: Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

Fundamentalist posted this over at City-Data:

Let's not go there. We see nothing in scripture where God desires for people to be in hell. Scripture clearly says, that God does not delight in the death of the wicked. God loves everyone and wants none to perish. I believe Jesus did not die on the cross for the whole world but for His elect who He predestined to be in heaven but there is no verse that God desires for men to go to hell. This is just another mystery of God which in our perverted, fallen state we are in we could never know nor comprehend. We should not fill in the blanks; we should only go from scripture. Much safer.

Typical dogma,  his doctrine is correct, we are just to stupid to understand it.

[WhiteWings]

Typical dogma,  his doctrine is correct, we are just to stupid to understand it.

:winkgrin:

Lemme see if my 2 braincells understand the logic...

for the whole world but for His elect who He predestined to be in heaven but there is no verse that God desires for men to go to hell.

God owns created, owns and has full control over heaven and hell. I can agree with that.
So
a] God predestined people to Heaven. Not because they are sinless but because of predestination.
b] That automaticly means he predestined the others to hell.
c] He's doesn't want to sent anyone to hell.
d] He's the highest authority and has the power to do what He wishes.
e] So what does He do? He makes a rule to kick 95% into hell while that's not what He wants (see point c)

Believe what you will but some points do not fit in the above list.

just another mystery of God

So simply put because you don't understand the mystery therefore you conclude the answer is torture.
I have to admit. Pretty sound logic. Very common for those walking the green mile....

[rosered]

 

  Hi Bro T ,
  I can see heaven as a  state of being , not so much a  literal place  nowadays
   that helps me  alot ,  a piece of mind or'' mind of Christ '', that confidence  in the Power of God /Father and will/desire
  Hell/grave  to me is more of a state of sleep   in this realm and or unrest/torment  of this type of Judgement
when we listen to spirits /breaths  that are not Life /Truth  we doubt  God and  lean more on our own  strength after being  brought down and low a few times , you learn real quick   that we cannot do Anything with out  the Lords help and Spirit / breath/ presence within us , we cannot survive on our own
and we learn to put the glory /doxa gr 1391 to God where it rests in and truly belongs in the Light /knowledge of Christ working within  God /Father

  this is the  description of doxa /glory
1) opinion, judgment, view

2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone

a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory
3) splendour, brightness
a) of the moon, sun, stars

b) magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace

c) majesty

1) a thing belonging to God

a) the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity

2) a thing belonging to Christ

a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah

b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty

3) of the angels

a) as apparent in their exterior brightness

4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state

a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth

b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven

:icon_flower: 
  just some thoughts on this  topic  :HeartThrob:

[peacemaker]

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."

This is pointing to the time when ALL of CREATION has been restored and will be ABLE to live in harmony FOREVER.

(http://dl7.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1884/1884487scxd7nyjvf.gif) Big Hug!

[sparrow]

hugs back at ya!

(i never get tired of that video..)  :HeartThrob:

[peacemaker]

"Many people will walk-in, and out of our lives; but true friendship will leave footprints in your heart."

peacemaker