Fundamentalist posted this over at City-Data:
QuoteLet's not go there. We see nothing in scripture where God desires for people to be in hell. Scripture clearly says, that God does not delight in the death of the wicked. God loves everyone and wants none to perish. I believe Jesus did not die on the cross for the whole world but for His elect who He predestined to be in heaven but there is no verse that God desires for men to go to hell. This is just another mystery of God which in our perverted, fallen state we are in we could never know nor comprehend. We should not fill in the blanks; we should only go from scripture. Much safer.
LOL Can God possibly wish all people to be saved but
only die for The Elect??
I'm glad he at least disagreed with the original post which claimed that God desired some people to perish.
If you would like to see the post it's at the very bottom of the first page:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/683035-jesus-willing-some-shall-perish.html
LOL! Yeah, I have read many of Fundamentalist post on city data. Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..
The way I see the original ET bible was completely blank. And now it's 2300 pages.... :winkgrin:
The good part is that at least he doesn't claim God wants people in hell to boost His own glory.
Good step forward IMO.
But he contradicts himself in a single paragraph.
God doesn't want anyone in hell. But he predestined some elect. Elect=group that stay out of hell. That automaticly means the others are elected to be cast in hell.
This always amazes me how God does not want anyone to perish, but yet most will perish according to the Calvinist.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 23, 2009, 09:37:55 PM
The way I see the original ET bible was completely blank. And now it's 2300 pages.... :winkgrin:
The good part is that at least he doesn't claim God wants people in hell to boost His own glory.
Good step forward IMO.
But he contradicts himself in a single paragraph.
God doesn't want anyone in hell. But he predestined some elect. Elect=group that stay out of hell. That automaticly means the others are elected to be cast in hell.
I remember when I use to believe that God elected some to salvation and others to hell forever. I remember even reading that passage that says God has mercy on who he wants to..The one about Esau and Jacob..I really believed he was saying that through that story..
Quote from: SQ on June 23, 2009, 09:42:54 PM
This always amazes me how God does not want anyone to perish, but yet most will perish according to the Calvinist.
If the Calvinist is true to his beliefs, he will come to the "logically correct" conclusion that God only wants some to be saved, since "obviously" only some are saved.
However many "Calvinists" are only "half-hearted" Calvinists, and still cling to the contradiction that God loves all yet predestines some to hell.
At least the "fry-hards" (Thanks WW :thumbsup:) are consistent, though unimaginably cruel in their thinking.
But we shouldn't be too hard on Fundamentalist and friends. They haven't been given eyes to see yet.
Peace...
QuoteLOL Can God possibly wish all people to be saved but only die for The Elect??
I'm glad he at least disagreed with the original post which claimed that God desired some people to perish.
good post, hadn't realized the absurdity of this view yet
Quote from: SQ on June 23, 2009, 09:42:54 PM
This always amazes me how God does not want anyone to perish, but yet most will perish according to the Calvinist.
Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are
many who go in by it.
Mat 7:14 Because [32] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are
few who find it.
Quote
Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..
Do you guys not get it. Always quoting that Jesus died because God loved the world. Can you not see this clearly. Apparently, I am missing something.
Yes He died for everybody. But it is a free GIFT. Some do not want to partake of the free gift. If there are those that do not want the free gift, than they do not want it. Yes, He offered it to the whole world. However there are those, in the world, that just do not want it.
Do any of you get this. I am sure you will tell me that I don't get it. However, I did accept the free gift that was offered. I have friends (the world) who have not accepted the free gift (salvation).
Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.
I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period
God Bless
The wide road/gate leads to destruction.
I think noone on this forum will deny the verses you quoted.
But what exactly is destruction?
What is destroyed?
Does it take 'a while' or forever?
How is the destruction done? A slap on the wrist or (eternal) torture in literal fire? Or something in between?
None of that is answered in the verses quoted by you. So the only thing it proves/mentions is that there will be different destinies for different people. It doesn't prove ET. It doesn't prove UR.
Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:53:17 AM
I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period
God Bless
Not everyone wants your tickets. Not everybody want the tickets Jesus offers. The difference is that you stop offereing. Jesus doesn't. And eventually all will be in super-bowl. At least that;s what the verses say:
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save his people from their sins.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 17:4 I have given you glory on the earth, having done all the work which you gave me to do.
So Jesus said all will accept the free super-bowl ticket. Eventually....
Me again. This time with the verses found in my signature.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
-> All man. Clear enough. But I'm aware many claim all means: the elect or few from every race/country/tribe
-> will have If I would say "I don't care what God want, I do what I want and He is powerless to stop me" I would be called a heretic. But the same people say the 'will have' of God is will never come true.
-> and The verse also states people will know the truth. But yes some say than when you are in hell you know the truth but God won't listen to you anymore.
BTW Jesus claims otherwise:
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
-> Humm, weird verse. I read so often Jesus came for the believers. And in this verse I read He doesn't judge the unbeliever. That is every person not being a Christian.
I see an even smaller possibility of 'elect' in that verse.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....
To use your superbowl analogy it is declared that everyone goes to superbowl.
If God declares something is He actually begging for a cookie like a little puppy?
Or?
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
No matter if there is 0% or 100% free will. Or anything in between: God stated in strong word that somehow His wish will be a fact. Either He drags you to superbowl (0% free will) or is patient (100% free will).
But in the end all are in superbowl.
Now just hope we get no war in heaven because referee made a wrong decision :laughing7:
Wide is the road that leads to destruction.
YES. MOST in this world are walking down that road.
It is not the HUMAN BEINGS that will be destroyed, My GOD!!!!
It is their DROSS. The impurities. Their FALSE Beliefs!
The narrow gate leads to... what??? LIFE!
This argument over "eternal torture" is so completely ridiculous and it is holding everyone up. Do you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of a small group of people standing outside a great hall of learning, and they are trying to stop people from entering in by starting some ridiculous argument about who is ALLOWED to go in and screaming about how there are a LOT of people who won't BE ALLOWED to go in. And there are all these passersby... "Who the hell wants to go in there, with all of those angry, screaming people anyway...?" Instead, the people outside of the doorway, should be laying out the welcome signs and shouting "HELLO FRIENDS! Look at what we have found! WE have found a wonderful great hall of learning! Come! COME INSIDE!!! ALL ARE WELCOME! ALL ARE WELCOME!!"
We have a LOT to learn. And this ET argument is just a giant boulder in the path.
BUT, regardless....God's plan will not be hindered.
Those who are not putting their faith and trust in Him NOW... are missing out on a great deal. They are walking on the road of destruction, instead of the road of LIFE!! My God, it isn't about suffering eternal torture. That is not the point of this life. To choose whether or not to be eternally tortured or not. SHeesh! That is INSANE! When the truth enters your heart, you cling to Him and want to cling to Him more and more as you walk about your life. Sin is seen for what it is... If you find happiness in sin, then you do not see sin in the right perspective. Sin is dead.
Sin LEADS to death and destruction. Jesus is LIFE! So many walking that road of destruction ruled by SIN. God wants us to cling to HIM. Cling to LIFE! Sin is here for a reason. It is a teacher. YES we are learning. We are living in this contrast of love and non-love so that we may learn WHO God is!
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."
YES. This is pointing to the time when ALL of CREATION has been restored and will be ABLE to live in harmony FOREVER. Because we will have LEARNED what we came to learn, after being subjected to this world of the knowledge of good and evil. All knees will bow. All will come to the foot of the cross and realize just HOW LOVED we are!!!!
The TREE of knowledge of good and evil was planted in the garden for A REASON y'all. The fall of mankind was planned from the beginning. This is ALL part of God's plan.
"Adam and Eve" did not TRULY understand. They were ignorant of how TRULY magnificent their Creator is. They were ignorant of WHO the Creator is. They were ignorant of the difference between LOVE and NON-LOVE. This is what THEY (WE) needed to learn. We HAD to come and put on mortal so we could STAND BACK and SEE our Creator for WHO He really is, otherwise we would have NEVER known. Otherwise, we would have been ignorant children. God would not have us be ignorant. Ignorance, is *NOT* bliss. KNOWLEDGE is bliss! A HUGE part of the GLORY of "heaven" is coming out of ignorance into the KNOWLEDGE of WHO are Father is, and that LOVE conquers all. It's the ONLY way that we can finally put on INCORRUPTION, so that MORTALITY can put on IMMORTALITY. God's plan is FLAWLESS. It has ALWAYS BEEN flawless.
We are talking about the CREATOR of the universe... and some folks think he is going to torture His creation for all eternity? Give Him a little more credit than that. His plan is PERFECT as HE IS PERFECT.
You'll see.
My! My! Sparrow.
You're frisky this morning!
:laughing7:
Must be the new healthfood
(http://hazel8500.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/can-o-worms.gif)
those are some cute little worms.
Who could ever eat them??
lol.
Quote from: SparrowThose who are not putting their faith and trust in Him NOW... are missing out on a great deal.
Boy, is that ever the truth! No one would turn their backs on Him if they knew who He is and what they are missing.
7Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
8For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. --Jer 17
:bgdance:
:cloud9: GO Sparrow, Go Sparrow! :cheerleader: :winkgrin: :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: Tim B on June 23, 2009, 09:21:43 PM
Fundamentalist posted this over at City-Data:
QuoteLet's not go there. We see nothing in scripture where God desires for people to be in hell. Scripture clearly says, that God does not delight in the death of the wicked. God loves everyone and wants none to perish. I believe Jesus did not die on the cross for the whole world but for His elect who He predestined to be in heaven but there is no verse that God desires for men to go to hell. This is just another mystery of God which in our perverted, fallen state we are in we could never know nor comprehend. We should not fill in the blanks; we should only go from scripture. Much safer.
Typical dogma, his doctrine is correct, we are just to stupid to understand it.
QuoteTypical dogma, his doctrine is correct, we are just to stupid to understand it.
:winkgrin:
Lemme see if my 2 braincells understand the logic...
Quotefor the whole world but for His elect who He predestined to be in heaven but there is no verse that God desires for men to go to hell.
God owns created, owns and has full control over heaven and hell. I can agree with that.
So
a] God predestined people to Heaven. Not because they are sinless but because of predestination.
b] That automaticly means he predestined the others to hell.
c] He's doesn't want to sent anyone to hell.
d] He's the highest authority and has the power to do what He wishes.
e] So what does He do? He makes a rule to kick 95% into hell while that's not what He wants (see point c)
Believe what you will but some points do not fit in the above list.
Quotejust another mystery of God
So simply put because you don't understand the mystery therefore you conclude the answer is torture.
I have to admit. Pretty sound logic. Very common for those walking the green mile....
Hi Bro T ,
I can see heaven as a state of being , not so much a literal place nowadays
that helps me alot , a piece of mind or'' mind of Christ '', that confidence in the Power of God /Father and will/desire
Hell/grave to me is more of a state of sleep in this realm and or unrest/torment of this type of Judgement
when we listen to spirits /breaths that are not Life /Truth we doubt God and lean more on our own strength after being brought down and low a few times , you learn real quick that we cannot do Anything with out the Lords help and Spirit / breath/ presence within us , we cannot survive on our own
and we learn to put the glory /doxa gr 1391 to God where it rests in and truly belongs in the Light /knowledge of Christ working within God /Father
this is the description of doxa /glory
1) opinion, judgment, view
2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory
3) splendour, brightness
a) of the moon, sun, stars
b) magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
c) majesty
1) a thing belonging to God
a) the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity
2) a thing belonging to Christ
a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah
b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty
3) of the angels
a) as apparent in their exterior brightness
4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state
a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth
b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven
:icon_flower:
just some thoughts on this topic :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sparrow on July 09, 2009, 06:10:48 PM
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."
This is pointing to the time when ALL of CREATION has been restored and will be ABLE to live in harmony FOREVER.
(http://dl7.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1884/1884487scxd7nyjvf.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com) Big Hug!
hugs back at ya! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVNTdWbVBgc&feature=PlayList&p=BCFBCBC5ADC6DD11&index=0)
(i never get tired of that video..) :HeartThrob:
"Many people will walk-in, and out of our lives; but true friendship will leave footprints in your heart."
peacemaker
Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:53:17 AM
Quote
Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..
Do you guys not get it. Always quoting that Jesus died because God loved the world. Can you not see this clearly. Apparently, I am missing something.
Yes He died for everybody. But it is a free GIFT. Some do not want to partake of the free gift. If there are those that do not want the free gift, than they do not want it. Yes, He offered it to the whole world. However there are those, in the world, that just do not want it.
Do any of you get this. I am sure you will tell me that I don't get it. However, I did accept the free gift that was offered. I have friends (the world) who have not accepted the free gift (salvation).
Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.
I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period
God Bless
why are you here?
Perhaps he is here because he is attracted to the gift but has not accepted it yet.
Love calls; bringing us closer and closer to itself.
Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:53:17 AM
Quote
Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..
Do you guys not get it. Always quoting that Jesus died because God loved the world. Can you not see this clearly. Apparently, I am missing something.
Yes He died for everybody. But it is a free GIFT. Some do not want to partake of the free gift. If there are those that do not want the free gift, than they do not want it. Yes, He offered it to the whole world. However there are those, in the world, that just do not want it.
Do any of you get this. I am sure you will tell me that I don't get it. However, I did accept the free gift that was offered. I have friends (the world) who have not accepted the free gift (salvation).
Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.
I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period
God Bless
It's not really love if he doesn't save everybody. If God really loves human beings, then he would only create human beings that would eventually come to know him. To create a human being that will never come to know God is just a waste of time, and cruelty. I'd be hard pressed to say that there is any human being that would actually, and continually defy God though. If he did, and God wanted to save him, would God not be pretty weak? I mean, look at the world, and see all the destruction humans cause. Honestly, God seems pretty weak if he really wanted to save ALL man (from the average Christian perspective).
This has been an interesting thread....
Tim B said: ''If God really loves human beings, then he would only create human beings that would eventually come to know him. To create a human being that will never come to know God is just a waste of time, and cruelty.''
I think we have to be careful in 'assuming' things about God and His creation. If we follow Tim's reasoning here, then we could also say, God would create the universe so that evil wouldn't be a reality, as He loves us too much to allow us to suffer, etc etc.
I dont' know if those who are 'destroyed' and don't inherit the Kingdom, will ever be 'saved' eventually - I hope they will be. At the end of the day, won't the Judge of all the earth, do what is right? If it turns out that not all people receive immortality, then who are we to 'judge' that God is 'unjust'?
Isnt it interesting how folks keep on saying lets just use scripture and then make statements that are found nowhere in scripture (like Jesus dying only for his heaven bound elect) and then give their own statement the weight of scripture while denying scripture ( like Jesus being the propitiation or our sins and not only ours but for the whole world also) and insisting that they know better than the scripture what the scripture means(since scripture must be interpreted with scripture) and they apply their if ands and butts(reasonings) to the scripture as if they superceded the clear black and white statements of the scripture? Have I overused the word "scripture" here? Is this a run on sentence?
I just noticed your title to this thread and I laughed out loud. I like how you put LOL at the end. It really belongs there! :laughing7:
Quote from: fullarmor2 on September 08, 2009, 04:53:57 AM
I just noticed your title to this thread and I laughed out loud. I like how you put LOL at the end. It really belongs there! :laughing7:
:laughing7: lol I'm glad you thought it was funny. The idea (of only the elect getting saved) cracked me up when I saw somebody say that a while back on another forum.
Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:53:17 AM
Quote
Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..
Do you guys not get it. Always quoting that Jesus died because God loved the world. Can you not see this clearly. Apparently, I am missing something.
Yes He died for everybody. But it is a free GIFT. Some do not want to partake of the free gift. If there are those that do not want the free gift, than they do not want it. Yes, He offered it to the whole world. However there are those, in the world, that just do not want it.
Do any of you get this. I am sure you will tell me that I don't get it. However, I did accept the free gift that was offered. I have friends (the world) who have not accepted the free gift (salvation).
Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.
I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period
God Bless
That's like saying that God stays in the boat (that we fell out of) and only throws a life preserver into these stormy seas (of life) with the hope that we will not only see it, but have the desire and the strength/ability to get to it - all on our own - so that he can ultimately pull us to safety (so long as WE can do the hard part - which would be much more than just "accepting" his offer of salvation by throwing the life preserver into the water) and be our "saviour".
Clearly God jumped into the water... :gwink:
and is dragging our sorry butts back to the boat - kicking and screaming, if necessary. :gwink:
Quote from: sparrow on July 09, 2009, 06:10:48 PM
Wide is the road that leads to destruction.
YES. MOST in this world are walking down that road.
It is not the HUMAN BEINGS that will be destroyed, My GOD!!!!
It is their DROSS. The impurities. Their FALSE Beliefs!
The narrow gate leads to... what??? LIFE!
This argument over "eternal torture" is so completely ridiculous and it is holding everyone up. Do you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of a small group of people standing outside a great hall of learning, and they are trying to stop people from entering in by starting some ridiculous argument about who is ALLOWED to go in and screaming about how there are a LOT of people who won't BE ALLOWED to go in. And there are all these passersby... "Who the hell wants to go in there, with all of those angry, screaming people anyway...?" Instead, the people outside of the doorway, should be laying out the welcome signs and shouting "HELLO FRIENDS! Look at what we have found! WE have found a wonderful great hall of learning! Come! COME INSIDE!!! ALL ARE WELCOME! ALL ARE WELCOME!!"
We have a LOT to learn. And this ET argument is just a giant boulder in the path.
BUT, regardless....God's plan will not be hindered.
Those who are not putting their faith and trust in Him NOW... are missing out on a great deal. They are walking on the road of destruction, instead of the road of LIFE!! My God, it isn't about suffering eternal torture. That is not the point of this life. To choose whether or not to be eternally tortured or not. SHeesh! That is INSANE! When the truth enters your heart, you cling to Him and want to cling to Him more and more as you walk about your life. Sin is seen for what it is... If you find happiness in sin, then you do not see sin in the right perspective. Sin is dead.
Sin LEADS to death and destruction. Jesus is LIFE! So many walking that road of destruction ruled by SIN. God wants us to cling to HIM. Cling to LIFE! Sin is here for a reason. It is a teacher. YES we are learning. We are living in this contrast of love and non-love so that we may learn WHO God is!
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."
YES. This is pointing to the time when ALL of CREATION has been restored and will be ABLE to live in harmony FOREVER. Because we will have LEARNED what we came to learn, after being subjected to this world of the knowledge of good and evil. All knees will bow. All will come to the foot of the cross and realize just HOW LOVED we are!!!!
The TREE of knowledge of good and evil was planted in the garden for A REASON y'all. The fall of mankind was planned from the beginning. This is ALL part of God's plan.
"Adam and Eve" did not TRULY understand. They were ignorant of how TRULY magnificent their Creator is. They were ignorant of WHO the Creator is. They were ignorant of the difference between LOVE and NON-LOVE. This is what THEY (WE) needed to learn. We HAD to come and put on mortal so we could STAND BACK and SEE our Creator for WHO He really is, otherwise we would have NEVER known. Otherwise, we would have been ignorant children. God would not have us be ignorant. Ignorance, is *NOT* bliss. KNOWLEDGE is bliss! A HUGE part of the GLORY of "heaven" is coming out of ignorance into the KNOWLEDGE of WHO are Father is, and that LOVE conquers all. It's the ONLY way that we can finally put on INCORRUPTION, so that MORTALITY can put on IMMORTALITY. God's plan is FLAWLESS. It has ALWAYS BEEN flawless.
We are talking about the CREATOR of the universe... and some folks think he is going to torture His creation for all eternity? Give Him a little more credit than that. His plan is PERFECT as HE IS PERFECT.
You'll see.
:thumbsup: (very nicely said!!)
Wondered once, :grin: if perhaps we are not ALL "God's elect", as Israel is God's "elect" and we are all (by birth or adoption) now part of the commonwealth of Israel. :dontknow:
"The way, truth, and life that God prepared for the health of everyone is a fruit product of infinite wisdom; powerfully efficacious, from beginning to end."
peacemaker
Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:53:17 AM
Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.
I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period
Here's an even better analogy
There once was a king who had 20 children
He deliberately decided to have 20 children with one sole purpose in mind, after all he was king and had to answer to nobody
He was going to choose one of them to bestow love and kindness on, the child he chose he would bestow his unconditional love on and she would be his little princess and would want for nothing, she could have everything her heart desired..to her he was an extremely loving and doting father and she adored him...she cared nothing for her siblings, all she saw was her loving daddy who doted on her alone
The other 19 children however were not so fortunate, they were there for the express purpose for being abused by their father, every day they had to endure menial hard labour as well as severe floggings whenever they stepped out of line (sometimes they were beaten unconscious), their diet consisted mainly of dry bread and water, and they had to take turns in serving the king and his little princess with the loveliest and scrumptious meals, if anything wasn't to the kings liking there would be hell to pay, especially if his little princess threw a tantrum, which was often as she was fussy and spoilt and liked to see her siblings in trouble...she especially enjoyed seeing her siblings getting beaten
Unlike the little princess that wanted for nothing and had a comfortable bed to sleep in, the 19 rejects had to sleep in dark dungeons with no mattresses and only hard benches with the bare minimum of bedding
Many people would call this King unfair and unrighteous and unloving and rightly so
They at least had some moments of hope in their lives, albeit brief......
During the beatings where they were knocked unconscious, at least they had a time out and knew no more momentarily
They at least were afforded a few hours of rest at night, they were not tortured 24/7/365, although their lives were hard
Best of all they all lived in hope that one day they could escape the nightmare
Believe it or not, this king was far more loving than your god, as at least with his victims there was a form/hope of escape
BTW great response Chris (I saw you reply to me in another thread and am reading the page you linked)
Quote from: Shadow on October 02, 2009, 11:45:24 AM
Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:53:17 AM
Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.
I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period
Here's an even better analogy
There once was a king who had 20 children
He deliberately decided to have 20 children with one sole purpose in mind, after all he was king and had to answer to nobody
He was going to choose one of them to bestow love and kindness on, the child he chose he would bestow his unconditional love on and she would be his little princess and would want for nothing, she could have everything her heart desired..to her he was an extremely loving and doting father and she adored him...she cared nothing for her siblings, all she saw was her loving daddy who doted on her alone
The other 19 children however were not so fortunate, they were there for the express purpose for being abused by their father, every day they had to endure menial hard labour as well as severe floggings whenever they stepped out of line (sometimes they were beaten unconscious), their diet consisted mainly of dry bread and water, and they had to take turns in serving the king and his little princess with the loveliest and scrumptious meals, if anything wasn't to the kings liking there would be hell to pay, especially if his little princess threw a tantrum, which was often as she was fussy and spoilt and liked to see her siblings in trouble...she especially enjoyed seeing her siblings getting beaten
Unlike the little princess that wanted for nothing and had a comfortable bed to sleep in, the 19 rejects had to sleep in dark dungeons with no mattresses and only hard benches with the bare minimum of bedding
Many people would call this King unfair and unrighteous and unloving and rightly so
They at least had some moments of hope in their lives, albeit brief......
During the beatings where they were knocked unconscious, at least they had a time out and knew no more momentarily
They at least were afforded a few hours of rest at night, they were not tortured 24/7/365, although their lives were hard
Best of all they all lived in hope that one day they could escape the nightmare
Believe it or not, this king was far more loving than your god, as at least with his victims there was a form/hope of escape
BTW great response Chris (I saw you reply to me in another thread and am reading the page you linked)
Man, even that would be an absolutely monstrous image of a god, let alone a god that eternally torments his children. That is an absolute MONSTER. >:(
Quote from: Tim B on October 03, 2009, 10:20:28 AM
Man, even that would be an absolutely monstrous image of a god, let alone a god that eternally torments his children. That is an absolute MONSTER. >:(
Tim,
Please come to understanding while you still can! Please!
The prince of darkness is hiding the full glory of God from you!
But one day Tim, I assure you, the King of Light will rip away your veils and together you will laugh when the anoited Cherubs will roast toddler Jimmy because he stole a cookie.
And the prince of darkness? Well he is gnashing teeth because he can no longer veil the full glory of the King of Light.
Choose well Tim! Your prince will be defeated!
:sigh: :mshock:
Signed,
Pastor Grim, 5000 Farenheit Ministry
I partially agree with Cat, who basically says that God can do whatever He likes with all of us. We tend to forget that part. That will always be true.
Still, I look at the 5th chapter of Romans and before I finish it I get all excited inside. That's because Paul compares the Second Adam (Christ) to the first Adam. And he says that the first Adam spread death and condemnation throughout the world through one sin. But the Second Adam spread grace and life throughout the world through His obedience!!
The church keeps talking about the state of the world up until Christ. But it refuses to consider the notion that Paul wants us to understand in Romans 5, and that is:
the Second Adam has transferred life to all men. Just as we didn't ask to be born sinners (before Christ came), now we also don't ask to be born into the life He has given the world! They just don't see it! It's too hard to believe that God would just wipe the slate clean without our asking! According to man's reasoning, that wouldn't be "fair."
Our would it???
Love to all,
Brian
QuoteI partially agree with Cat, who basically says that God can do whatever He likes with all of us. We tend to forget that part. That will always be true.
Actually, it's not true. If it were true, that would make him an unpredictable and capricious God, a terror, like all those other gods out there. All you have to do is look at his orderly universe to see it's not true. The sun is coming up this morning again, just like every morning of my life. We can take him at his word and trust his promises to us.
...and he... was called Faithful and True...--Rev 19
A question I always want to ask Calvinists is, "If God has already determined your eternal fate before you were born, then why preach to those who are sinful?"
Yes, I agree with you Molly. It's also true that God truly is good and we can trust in Him on that. My point was simply: He's above, we're below. Even Jesus the Son will be no "higher" than any of us, just one of us. When God is all in all.
What I see as so problematic is how people (including the "church") are able to see the totality of the consequences of Adam's fall, but they can't see that the restoration has been even more total!!!
Brian
PAUL TO THE PHILIPPIANS:
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also,
God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10
that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.
the name of Jesus
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 07, 2009, 10:58:04 PM
PAUL TO THE PHILIPPIANS:
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.
the name of Jesus
Yay! :boogie:
Quote from: Akira Takahashi on October 07, 2009, 08:24:46 PM
A question I always want to ask Calvinists is, "If God has already determined your eternal fate before you were born, then why preach to those who are sinful?"
I have noticed that, without exception, those who find glory and goodness in God despite the prospect of God sending most to eternal torment are conveniently not in the group of those given such a fate. I wonder why we never see anyone praising and loving God while being absolutely convinced that he or she will be tormented forever...
:cloud9: Maybe because the Spirit is not divided? Blessings.....
Was a rhetorical question. :P
Quote from: Gab on October 08, 2009, 03:40:17 AM
Was a rhetorical question. :P
:cloud9: Was a humorous reply. (That apparently failed :laughing7:)
Quote from: Cardinal on October 08, 2009, 03:58:34 AM
Quote from: Gab on October 08, 2009, 03:40:17 AM
Was a rhetorical question. :P
:cloud9: Was a humorous reply. (That apparently failed :laughing7:)
Cardinal, you're funny. :grin:
Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:53:17 AM
Quote
Jesus clearly died because God loved the world..
Do you guys not get it. Always quoting that Jesus died because God loved the world. Can you not see this clearly. Apparently, I am missing something.
Yes He died for everybody. But it is a free GIFT. Some do not want to partake of the free gift. If there are those that do not want the free gift, than they do not want it. Yes, He offered it to the whole world. However there are those, in the world, that just do not want it.
Do any of you get this. I am sure you will tell me that I don't get it. However, I did accept the free gift that was offered. I have friends (the world) who have not accepted the free gift (salvation).
Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.
I think any 5 year would probably get this. Free will folks. We have free will to choose whether or not we want to go to the superbowl. Period
God Bless
Here is the a counter-analogy:
50 people open their eyes and find themselves in a clearing by a forest. Snow, trees, earth, and sky spread out as far as they can see, and the sun is high in the sky. However, in the clearing is a log cabin. Inside the cabin is a roaring fire surrounded by 50 chairs.
God says to these 50 people, "Everything here is my creation: from the sun to the snow to the cabin to the fire. I have made you because I wish for you to be with me. However, you must come inside the cabin before dark. I shall bring a storm down upon this clearing when the sun sets, and any who are left outside shall be trapped in it."
Time passes, and slowly the sun begins to set. As the sun hits the horizon, 20 of the people have entered the house. But 30 have not. Who knows why these 30 did not enter? Perhaps they did not believe that a storm was coming. Perhaps they did not hear God's warning. Perhaps they thought the sun would never set. Perhaps they decided they were having more fun in the snow than they would have in the building. But in the end, it doesn't matter why. The sun creeps below the horizon, and God shuts the door.
Without warning, icy winds and flying snow cut through the clearing. The remaining 30 people begin to shiver and shake. Cold begins to creep into their bodies, hurting them. Frightened, some of the people rush over to the door and knock. The door does not open. As the winds speed up and the temperature drops, more people rush over to the door. Soon, countless voices are at the door, and they are all crying, pleading, begging. It hurts, and they are afraid. They are sorry, now, that they did not go inside. Worst of all, the storm will go on forever, and these people will be trapped outside for eternity. Their pain, their suffering, their desperate pleas will never end.
But God does nothing. He will not open the door. Does he hear their cries? Is he hurt by their suffering? Does he care? You tell me.
Could you bear to hear these people's cries and do nothing? Would you be able to find unparalleled joy even while these people begged for your help? Would you be able to find perfect contentment, knowing that all those people were in pain?
I could not. It would tear me asunder. There are not words for how horrible the above situation seems to me. I would go mad if I was forced to endure it. I find it incomprehensible that anyone would say that an all good, all loving God would be less moved by these people's plight than I am.
TheDarkShard,
Nice post! (I'd add that God probably not only cares about them even more than we do, but that He's willing to go out and suffer, even till death if necessary, in order to make sure that all the others get inside!)
Unfortunately, not many "believers" have that kind of attitude today! To them, God just doesn't care once the door is shut (ie. the story about the 10 foolish virgins...). And so as a result, they (the "believers") don't care either!
:2c:
Brian
Here is the analogy:
I have 50 superbowl tickets (salvation). There are 50 people at this party I am going to attend (the world). I (Jesus) walk in and say "Hey guys, I have 50 tickets (salvation) to the superbowl, one ticket for everyone in the room (the world). 20 (few) of the 50 (the world) come to me (Jesus) and take my free gift of the tickets (salvation). Wouldn't you know it though. There were 30 (many) of the 50 that did not want my free gift. For whatever reason they just did not want a ticket to the superbowl.
Here is my analogy from the same story........
30 of the 50 did not want the free tickets. Why? Whatever reason. This is where most people lose the whole of God's wisdom, ability, and desire. Whatever reason. Whatever reason.
The point is there is a reason some don't accept. What is the reason? Say the reason is they don't like football. Why don't they like football? Is it a something from the heart or mind? These are the dominions where God works best.
Say God fixes the reasons they don't like football? Then they would accept the tickets all without being forced, all by their own wills.
In other words these people who reject the gift do not have free wills. They have wills being dominated by something that is causing them to not accept the good gift. Get rid of that 'something' and they will accept the gift.
cp
Do you want to know what drives me crazy about the whole...ET point of view which states "it is a GiFT, but you still have to ACCEPT it!" line?
Ok. So I give you a gift. I put it at your feet. There it is, all wrapped up in a nice bow.
I stand back and smile. :Sparkletooth:
Waiting for you to pick it up.
Waiting...
waiting....
waiting...
*ahem*
waiting...
waiting...
waiting...
*uh...ah...aHEM*
waiting..
waiting...
you still have not picked up my gift.
So I pick it up and beat you to death with it.
:icon_flower:
Apparently I am much kinder than God.
Because at least you are dead and not suffering for all eternity. :Sparkletooth:
It's such madness.
The same people who don't understand that all are being reconciled are the same people who think that THEY had something to do with their salvation. That in itself is taking AWAY from the cross, imo.
Hi all,
I came across this yesterday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv9IvCpiHxA&feature=related
-I'd love to hear your comments!
Love to all,
Brian
Hi Darkshard , Brian and Sparrow and CP ,
i was reading these and saw your vid
I just wanted to say the pattern in the Bible was always a servant
than the son
a servant feels indebted to a master
and A son is born in what His Father owns ..
I know that Jesus said the greatest in the kingdom is the servant of all
and He come to serve to the honor of His Fahter and to His glory
here are those verses I have got my reply from ..
Mal 1:6 A son honours [his] father, and a servant his master: if then I [be] a father, where [is] mine honour?
and if I [be] a master, where [is] my fear? says the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
Jhn 8:35 And the servant abides not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abides ever.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
I can see whay folks are in differnt places in His Word
making it all work together for the good of those who Love the Lord and are called according to HIS purpose
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: sparrow on November 06, 2009, 05:23:34 AM
Do you want to know what drives me crazy about the whole...ET point of view which states "it is a GiFT, but you still have to ACCEPT it!" line?
Ok. So I give you a gift. I put it at your feet. There it is, all wrapped up in a nice bow.
I stand back and smile. :Sparkletooth:
Waiting for you to pick it up.
Waiting...
waiting....
waiting...
*ahem*
waiting...
waiting...
waiting...
*uh...ah...aHEM*
waiting..
waiting...
you still have not picked up my gift.
So I pick it up and beat you to death with it.
:icon_flower:
Apparently I am much kinder than God.
Because at least you are dead and not suffering for all eternity. :Sparkletooth:
It's such madness.
The same people who don't understand that all are being reconciled are the same people who think that THEY had something to do with their salvation. That in itself is taking AWAY from the cross, imo.
Yeah. I think one of the main things that keeps people locked in the ET thinking is a failure to examine all the things that cause people NOT to be Christians in this life. They unjustly generalize everyone and say "well they just dont want God, theyd rather burn forever than accept perfect love. their choice!". Really, is that all? it couldnt possibly be because they were abused by a priest when they were younger, causing them to distrust religion in general? Or it couldnt be because they havent yet found convincing enough reasons to believe God exists? or it couldnt be because they have a hard time concluding which of thousands of religions is the correct one? it couldnt be anything like that?
Of course it cannot be...thell say. Because to admit that it could be(without bringing up romans 1 at least) would mean theyd actually have to attribute some common sense to the flawed church logic.
its really ridiculous
Quote from: sparrow on November 06, 2009, 05:23:34 AM
Do you want to know what drives me crazy about the whole...ET point of view which states "it is a GiFT, but you still have to ACCEPT it!" line?
Ok. So I give you a gift. I put it at your feet. There it is, all wrapped up in a nice bow.
I stand back and smile. :Sparkletooth:
Waiting for you to pick it up.
Waiting...
waiting....
waiting...
*ahem*
waiting...
waiting...
waiting...
*uh...ah...aHEM*
waiting..
waiting...
you still have not picked up my gift.
So I pick it up and beat you to death with it.
:icon_flower:
Apparently I am much kinder than God.
Because at least you are dead and not suffering for all eternity. :Sparkletooth:
It's such madness.
The same people who don't understand that all are being reconciled are the same people who think that THEY had something to do with their salvation. That in itself is taking AWAY from the cross, imo.
Yes.
There is a major problem with the whole position of "love me or I will kill you" philosophy.
"I love you but I have a gun to your head in case you don't love me back."
Such is IMO a reflection of our own sentiments imposed on scriptural interpretation. That meaning that it enables us to think highly of ourselves for loving God. Pride got mixed in with love.
JMO Barry
Awesome post sparrow! I wanted to jump up and shout HALLELUJAH!!! at the end of it but I figured I better not or my mother in law might think i'm a bit nutters. :D