The two witnesses are: Israel and the church

[peacemaker]

"The SPIRIT itself bears witness with our Spirit, that we are the children of God."

peacemaker

[Beloved Servant]

  On the personal and individual level the two witnesses are  the spirit and the word.  The two witnesses speak of the awesome power and word of authority given to the Lord's elect on the pathway to sonship. 
  The two witness company is not the manifest sons of God, for the manchild of chapter twelve of the Revelation represents the manifest sons who are "caught up unto God, and to His throne" (Rev. 12:5).  Upon the throne of the Father the manchild, the manifest sons of God, "rules all nations with a rod of iron" (Rev. 12:5). 
  Furthermore, the manchild, the manifest sons of God, receives his authority and dominion under the seventh trumpet, where the mystery of God is finished. 
  The two witnesses, however, receive their ministry of power and authority under the sixth trumpet and they "ascended up to heaven in a cloud."  They are caught up to a heavenly place of power and authority, but not to the omnipotence and dominion of the throne!  There is a glorious prophetic realm, prefigured by the two witnesses, that God's called and chosen elect enter prior to the manifestation of the sons. 
  And after the two witnesses or two candlesticks realm the next thing on God's  prophetic agenda is THE BIRTH OF THE MANCHILD!  That's where we really are in God's program of the ages. 

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev37.htm                 

[micah7:9]

"The SPIRIT itself bears witness with our Spirit, that we are the children of God."

peacemaker

:thumbsup:

[Doug]

  On the personal and individual level the two witnesses are  the spirit and the word. 

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev37.htm                 

That's where you probably should have ended the quote.  :laughing7:

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

Perhaps it ends better here:




                                                               "THE BIRTH OF THE MANCHILD"

[peacemaker]

"Because you are sons, the SPIRIT has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba, Father."

As giving a joint testimony, testifying with our spirit that we are children of God.
Know you not, that Jesus Christ is in you?

peacemaker

[Doug]

Perhaps it ends better here:




                                                              "THE BIRTH OF THE MANCHILD"

Mr. J. Preston Eby may have shot himself in the foot, as he claims "the two witnesses are  the spirit and the word," with which I agree, but that implies the 1,260 days must be symbolic of the entire church age, which contradicts what he says about the birth of the manchild.

Revelation 11:3
I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 12:5
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The same period of 1,260 days applies to both. The manchild is caught up to heaven before the 1,260 day period begins.

Look at the order of the events in chapter 12: the dragon stands before the woman hoping to devour her child as soon as it was born, in verse 4, which may refer to the attempt by Herod to destroy Christ at his birth; he was caught up to God's throne, in verse 5; then the woman flees to the wilderness for 1,260 days, where she is fed. Following that, there is the great war in heaven.

The birth of the manchild cannot be about the saints being resurrected, which occurs at the end of the church age.

In the traditional interpretations the manchild is Christ, which is how I understand it. Jesus is also the "firstborn from the dead," which refers not to his natural birth, but his resurrection, which is a spiritual birth.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

The woman in Revelation 12 pictures the church, who is clothed with the sun, which represents the gospel, which is the true spiritual light of all mankind. John said about Jesus, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." [John 1:9] John showed that every human is to be enlightened by the gospel. Those who have faith and believe in Christ are pictured by the woman in heaven.

Because the woman flees to the wilderness, the church (which is represented by the woman) can not be identified with a great denomination, that is visible to the world, with its head in Rome, or some other city on the earth. The image of a woman fleeing to the wilderness suggests that the church at times has been hidden from the world, and its light has become very dim.

Are the time periods in Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 the same?

In this prophecy, the woman flees to the wilderness for 1,260 days, and also for "a time, times, and a half." What do these time periods mean?

Since the woman in the prophecy is symbolic, and likewise the sun, the dragon, and the wilderness, the time period for which she remains in the wilderness is symbolic too. The 1,260 days and the "time, times and a half" are figurative. They represent the entire church age, when the gospel goes to the world.

To say this period means a literal 1,260 days, or three and a half years, is to single out one element in an obviously allegorical representation. This mistake is commonly made by dispensationalists. I suggest the two flights to the wilderness by the woman represent two different perspectives.

The two accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness correspond in the following ways:

  1. Both are part of the same vision
  2. They involve same woman
  3. They have the same duration, 1,260 days, or "a time, times and a half"
  4. The woman is nourished both times
  5. It is the same wilderness
  6. Her place is prepared by God

These accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness differ in at least two ways:

  1. The first account occurs before the great war in heaven; the second one occurs after the war, and the victory of the saints.

  2. The first time she flees, the woman's perspective is from ground level, while the second time, it is from above, as she is equipped with two wings of an eagle, which allow her to soar high above the earth. This represents a divine point of view, in contrast to a human viewpoint.

Exodus 19:4 says that God bore the Israelites upon eagle's wings. Isaiah speaks of eagles' wings in connection with a renewal of strength:

Isaiah 40:31
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

So, the prophecy of Revelation 12 indicates that those who insist upon literalism may need to take another look at the scriptures, with a different point of view. The human point of view is the earthly one, from ground level. It is the point of view that is associated with the little horn, in the prophecy of Daniel 7. There is a link between this chapter and the prophecy about the woman flying to the wilderness for "a time, times and a half." This expression is first mentioned in Daniel 7:25.

Daniel said, "behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." [Daniel 7:8] These "eyes like the eyes of man" represent a human viewpoint.

The spiritual viewpoint is one that is enlightened by God, and by an understanding of the gospel. This is not a literalistic approach. An eagle soars at a great height and views the earth from above, and so, in Revelation 12, the two wings of an eagle given to the woman represent a divine viewpoint.

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

I am posting Bro. Eby's writings as further study in scripture.
If you care to refute them, that, of course, is your prerogative.
However, I am very interested in what his response would be to you.
He is a very congenial man, do write him and let us know on the boards.

[Beloved Servant]

BTW,
Where does he say the 1260 is literal???
That's the last thing you would hear from him!   lol.

[Beloved Servant]

Doug,
After I read you post again — and again — I got even more confused as to your message. Just lost.

                   





                                                    :HeartThrob: The MANCHILD are the manifested Sons of God. :HeartThrob:

[Doug]

Doug,
After I read you post again — and again — I got even more confused as to your message. Just lost.

In the paragraph you quoted, Mr. J. Preston Eby suggests that the two witnesses may be identified with "the spirit and the word." Then he says they "receive their ministry of power and authority under the sixth trumpet."

IMO, this is an absurd position, and contradicts a number of scriptures!

Psalm 119:89
For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Psalm 105:8
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
   
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
   
When did the Spirit of God not have power and authority? We first read of it in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

So to imply their authority is limited to the 6th trumpet is an unworthy thing to say of either God's Spirit, or the scriptures.

                                                    :HeartThrob: The MANCHILD are the manifested Sons of God. :HeartThrob:

The idea that the manchild in Revelation 12:5 is the Christian church together with Christ seems to have been a doctrine made popular by J. N. Darby.

He wrote in his Synopsis of Revelation:

Satan, as the open infidel enemy of God and God's power in Christ, sought to devour the child as soon as born, who was to have the rule of the earth from God. But the child, Christ, and the assembly with Christ, is caught away to God and His throne---does not receive the power yet, but is placed in the very source of it from which it flows. It is not the rapture as regards joy; for it goes back to Christ Himself, but the placing Him and the assembly in and with Him, in the seat from which power flows for the establishment of the kingdom. There is no time for this: Christ and the assembly are all one. But the woman-the Jews, after this fly into the wilderness...

Darby's interpretation is flawed, IMO, as the woman is the church of all ages, and corresponds to the heavenly Jerusalem in Heb. 12:22-23, and the temple of God in the previous chapter. In Eph. 2:19-22 the prophets and apostles are identified with the foundation of the church. The church is also called "the mother of us all" in Gal. 4:26. This all corresponds to John's description of the woman in heaven in Revelation 12 who represents the church, "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" and "the spirits of just men made perfect."

Darby's interpretation separates the Christian church from its foundation, which includes the saints and prophets of the OT, along with the apostles. And his doctrine has produced a lot of evil fruit, tens of thousands of sects and cults, and major denominations have split over dispensationalism.

Doug

[Molly]

13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

--Rev 12


Seems to me we might be literally seeing this being played out in the Gulf of Mexico.  If Satan is not in charge of that unfolding disaster, I don't know who is.

[Doug]

13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

--Rev 12


Seems to me we might be literally seeing this being played out in the Gulf of Mexico.  If Satan is not in charge of that unfolding disaster, I don't know who is.

The flood from the mouth of the serpent pictures a flood of flawed interpretations, and false doctrines, which threaten to carry away the woman, who is the church. Many people here would probably agree that it is spiritual rather than literal, and represents some kind of information flood. I suggest it corresponds to the flood that is mentioned in Daniel 9:26; "the end thereof shall be with a flood." Both prophecies refer to the same thing. It includes a flood of flawed interpretations of prophecy.

The flood becoming swallowed up by the earth relates to the remedy. How does the earth swallow up the flood? Well, I posted some ideas on it previously, but recently, I have written about the land promises to Israel, and how they might apply to the church, the land being seen as a type or figure of the invisible things promised to the saints. When these promises, and the significance of the "land" in them is understood, the flood from the serpent's mouth gets swallowed up. A recent post relating to this can be seen here, or see this article.

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

Doug,

You need to start using this thing  ——>  :2c:

It's just your opinion.

[Molly]

The flood from the mouth of the serpent pictures a flood of flawed interpretations, and false doctrines, which threaten to carry away the woman, who is the church.

Yes, I could see that.   If I were to spiritualize this, I would say that it is LIES--that is the only thing that comes out of the mouth of the serpent--he is the father of lies. 

We are lied to all day long, and now, if that were possible, we are lied to more than at any time in history--about everything.  It's called propaganda, otherwise known as the science of lying.  They've raised it from an art form to a science!

[Beloved Servant]

Glen Beck did a great piece on this last week.
Seems the Nazis learned a lot from from the U.S. about this parlor trick.

[jabcat]

It's just your opinion.

Thanks for the reminder.  That's what we all have, huh Dave - whatever little piece(s) that God, in His wisdom, has allowed us to see -at the time.  We all see through a glass darkly.

[Beloved Servant]

Where's Ananias?

[CHB]

 

I suggest it corresponds to the flood that is mentioned in Daniel 9:26; "the end thereof shall be with a flood." Both prophecies refer to the same thing. It includes a flood of flawed interpretations of prophecy.

Hi Doug,

I believe you are right about Daniel 9:26 corresponding to (Rev. 12:16).  But what if this has already happened when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD?

CHB

[Doug]

I suggest it corresponds to the flood that is mentioned in Daniel 9:26; "the end thereof shall be with a flood." Both prophecies refer to the same thing. It includes a flood of flawed interpretations of prophecy.

Hi Doug,

I believe you are right about Daniel 9:26 corresponding to (Rev. 12:16).  But what if this has already happened when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD?

CHB

Hi CHB,

I am glad we agree on that point. However, IMO, preterism is part of the flood!

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: AMEN, yes it is......IMO also....it has too many flaws.....

[jabcat]

Just from my perspective, I'd personally specify absolute FULL preterism.   No doubt some amazing, earth-shattering things happened in 70 A.D.  I believe we passed from one age to another, an age like no other to that point - when Jesus' blood became active and applied to the church.  However, IMO, FULL preterism reads even more into things than are actually in play.   :2c:  

(We do have too many ism's, don't we?   :laughing7:)   **Sorry micah, I reposted while you were typing, so this statement belongs just above yours.   :thumbsup: 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: This is going to be long, there's a lot of thoughts here to get out to tie it all in together.

Here's how I see the dragon's flood. Dragon's flood = darkness being poured out on all that are in the inner court realm right now (also true spiritual priesthood).

This is why it says the darkness grows as we approach the day of the Lord, because the wheat and tares/darkness are RAISED UP together, ie. note that the dragon is on the same "playing field". To be raised up, they need water/the Spirit.

Would it shock you to know the Spirit of the Lord is giving them life as well? The RAIN falls on the just and the UNJUST equally. You can't see the moon and the stars, if it's not dark outside.

Now for the reason the earth swallows it. Earth = outer court ones, who are not of the priesthood being raised up. The outer court ones/wilderness will eat anything, the husk or the grain, they have no discerning of spirit, because they skipped the gifts of the Spirit brought about the baptism in the Spirit.

There are those of the priesthood that will also fall back (falling stars) to the outer court in this time, because they did not press in. This is why He said I would that you were either cold (outer court) or hot (Holy of Holies), but if you are lukewarm (inner court, BUT refusing to press in), I will spew you out of My mouth.

To be spewed out of His mouth, is to be sent back to the outer court realm/wilderness. What happens is, they have no covering (the outer court had no covering), are as a woman/soul with no covering, which is what allowed the Nephalim/angels to join themselves to them, producing giants.

This has been going on for 2000 years, but is about to come to an end, as the mind of Christ has been preparing a place to lay His "head". The authority RESTS upon the shoulders. As we truly enter into His rest, it means all the giants have been slain.

Angels means messages or messengers, and giants were in the promised land that had to be dealt with. We are in the process of dealing with the giants in the land right now. These giants of imaginations that exalt themselves above the knowledge (to be one with as a man with his wife) of God, must be dealt with.

What happens is, as those of the priesthood that are pressing in, are delivered of these giants/darkness/tares, they are cast into the sea. The sea is the same as the outer court realm. There was a brazen laver in the outer court where the blood (the life is in the blood) of the sacrifices was washed off the hands (speaks of works) of the priests.

The laver or sea is the same as waters/peoples in the outer court realm, ie. the waters below the firmament, and the letter of the Word. Spiritually speaking, it's the realm of the measure of faith He gives every man to receive Him.

The firmament is called heaven, remember, and is the realm of the spiritual priesthood, ie. we were seated with Him in heavenly places by the baptism in the Spirit.

The giants/darkness/tares is as the mountain (of flesh, ie. lust, greed, hate, ect.) that is cast into the sea, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed.

Brazen/brass/bronze speaks of judgment. The heavens over us can become as brass = judgment, no prayer getting through. The animal carnal beastly natures via their blood, were cleansed here by the priests, as they washed their hands from the sacrifice. Putting those natures to death in us, is making of ourselves a living sacrifice.

This is what is happening now, and why the darkness (out there) is growing darker. He is dividing the waters by sending the darkness to those who would not press in beyond the outer court realm. He pointed to this when He cast the legion (a legion is 2000) into the swine (will eat husk or grain). Note what day He did it on.

The message in that was, that the fullness of the darkness of mens hearts is being cast out and into the outer court (outer darkness) where their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when they see what they could have had. This is how the "earth"/outer court helps the woman/true church.

Ever wonder why Lot was spared even after he offered his daughters up to the men of Sodom? This is why. He was seeing thru a darkened glass (darkened soul) what the Spirit was doing, ie. the body doing what it saw it's head do. The daughters (they did not press in to "become" a son) are as the fleshly outer court realm, and they are being turned over to darkness.

This is not a totally "bad" ending through, because all of God's judgments are unto victory. They are "marked" to return. The queen of Sheba (comes from root word meaning to return again) came to Solomon (type of the Melchisedek priesthood getting ready to be raised up) to see all of His riches of His kingdom, and when she saw them and his WISDOM, there was no more breath (finally gave up the ghost, ie. died to self) in her.

The serpent in Genesis, has grown to become a dragon by Revelation. The thoughts of men's hearts/soul is only evil continually, and these thoughts have taken a form, the form of the dragon. The serpent needed a woman/soul to reproduce. The soul is like a womb. Collectively, the souls of men produced this dragon.

This is also why we of the priesthood/inner court are not to judge (in condemnation) what is going on "out there" in outer darkness/outer court as it gets darker, because it has come in part from the HEARTS of the priesthood that He is judging FIRST.

Out of the abundance of the HEART, the mouth speaks, and judgment BEGINS in the house of the Lord, whose house we are. Remember that, the body (outer court ones) can only do what they see (perceive thru the darkened glass of the soul) their head do.

The spiritual priesthood was made to be one with THE Head, and as such were made to be a "head"/covering over them, just as the inner court/firmament was/is a covering over the waters below it. Blessings...

[Cardinal]

Just from my perspective, I'd personally specify absolute FULL preterism.   No doubt some amazing, earth-shattering things happened in 70 A.D.  I believe we passed from one age to another, an age like no other to that point - when Jesus' blood became active and applied to the church.  However, IMO, FULL preterism reads even more into things than are actually in play.   :2c:

:cloud9: Exactly  :thumbsup:

[Molly]

The message was the fullness of the darkness of mens hearts is being cast out and into the outer court (outer darkness) where their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when they see what they could have had.

The serpent in Genesis, has grown to become a dragon by Revelation. This is how the "earth"/outer court helps the woman/true church.

This is also why we of the priesthood/inner court are not to judge (in condemnation) what is going on "out there" in outer darkness/outer court as it gets darker, because it has come in part from the HEARTS of the priesthood that He is judging FIRST.

This is where I get lost with what you are saying.   Are you saying that the evil that is being cast out of us is invading others as some kind of conservation of evil?  That we are somehow responsible for all the darkness, even if passively?