Video: The two witnesses are: Israel and the church (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmtYF0y29xI&feature=fvw)
Transscription (http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1117537/pg1)
Text: The two witnesses are: Israel and the church (http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/dougkrieger/two_witnesses.htm)
I don't see how Israel and the church are two seperate witnesses, for all jew and gentile are one in Christ Jesus.
To me the 2 witnesses are just that, 2 people, one be John of patmos the other Elijah.
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 08:02:14 PM
I don't see how Israel and the church are two seperate witnesses, for all jew and gentile are one in Christ Jesus.
To me the 2 witnesses are just that, 2 people, one be John of patmos the other Elijah.
:goodpost:
Mmmm, two advesaries :laughing7:
Did you watch the short video in the first link?
Small uncomplet summary.
The witnesses never are called men.
KJVRev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
KJVRev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJVJer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
KJVRom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Israel = OT witness
Church = NT witness
Since 1948 (Israel) they both witness.
Well just a thought... :2c:
Israel = OT witness
Church = NT witness
Since 1948 (Israel) they both witness.
Well just a thought.
whitewings
Isreal is hardly a witness though, since 1948 Cristians have been a minority, sometimes discriminated against, throughout it's small history.
Jesus said to Israel "you will not see me again until you say hassanah be the lord"
I have another verse that compliments the 2 olive trees, I must show it to you.
Witnesses: G3144 martus mar'-toos
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a "martyr": - martyr, record, witness.
(KJV) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
(YLT) I have known thy works, and where thou dost dwell--where the throne of the Adversary is --and thou dost hold fast my name, and thou didst not deny my faith, even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful witness, who was put to death beside you, where the Adversary doth dwell.
I remain seeking the identity of the two witnesses of Rev. 11 but I do not accept Israel and the church; but I believe that Antipas the fatihful witness is Jesus, any thoughts? Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 16, 2010, 07:48:00 PMI remain seeking the identity of the two witnesses of Rev. 11 but I do not accept Israel and the church;
Fine with me.
But
why do you think Isreal and the church are not the witnesses?
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 09:12:34 PM
Isreal is hardly a witness though, since 1948 Cristians have been a minority, sometimes discriminated against, throughout it's small history.
The witness is near the end. Maybe that's not now. Plus the witness was also dead for a while. :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 16, 2010, 08:03:24 PM
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 09:12:34 PM
Isreal is hardly a witness though, since 1948 Cristians have been a minority, sometimes discriminated against, throughout it's small history.
The witness is near the end. Maybe that's not now. Plus the witness was also dead for a while. :dontknow:
If you look at the power that elijah had that no other prophet did, was to bring fire down from heaven, this is one of the powers that the witnesses posses.
If Israel is the witness are you saying, that that witness is a symbol of a multitude of peoples ie. Christian israelis, so that witness could be 1000 christian Israelis, is that what you are saying?
The video/idea from the OP is not mine.
The author of the video backs up his/her claim with some verses. Straight forward reasoning.
I know Elijah and Moses are often thought to be the 2 witnesses.
That must be based on verses that debunk the idea presented in the video.
Quoteso that witness could be 1000 christian Israelis, is that what you are saying?
That's correct according to the verses presented in the video.
So basicly I'm asking some proof why the idea presented in the video is totally insane...
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2010, 09:03:54 PM
Mmmm, two advesaries :laughing7:
Did you watch the short video in the first link?
Small uncomplet summary.
The witnesses never are called men.
KJVRev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
KJVRev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJVJer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
KJVRom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Israel = OT witness
Church = NT witness
Since 1948 (Israel) they both witness.
Well just a thought... :2c:
I found the verse I wanted to show you
KJVRev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
zechariah 4
11What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side therof?
And I answered again
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the lord of the whole earth.
Jesus Christ = Yesu the anioted one
but these be two
I hope you like it :happygrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 16, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
But why do you think Isreal and the church are not the witnesses?
Sorry I posted & disappeared! This has been a busy week.
I think "Israel" and "the church" are one and the same ... not two witnesses, but one.
When I originally supported ThinkTank's post, I should have edited better - I don't necessarily believe it is John & Elijah.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 16, 2010, 08:56:04 PM
The video/idea from the OP is not mine.
The author of the video backs up his/her claim with some verses. Straight forward reasoning.
I know Elijah and Moses are often thought to be the 2 witnesses.
That must be based on verses that debunk the idea presented in the video.
Quoteso that witness could be 1000 christian Israelis, is that what you are saying?
That's correct according to the verses presented in the video.
So basicly I'm asking some proof why the idea presented in the video is totally insane...
I don't think it's insane and might be something to it. I cannot load up the video though sorry, takes too long to load. Maybe there are two witnesses and also I would not be suprised if there would be also Israeli multitude of witnesses, but I think these are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation, rather than the 2 olive trees. :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 16, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 16, 2010, 07:48:00 PMI remain seeking the identity of the two witnesses of Rev. 11 but I do not accept Israel and the church;
Fine with me.
But why do you think Isreal and the church are not the witnesses?
Israel is a state and the chruch is the body of Christ. I do not see where the chruch is killed;
and Israel, the important Israel, spiritual Israel is, I believe the Overcomer. Israel
H3478
he will rule as God. from H8280 to
prevail and H410
strength; as adjective mighty;
especially the Almighty Could Law and Grace be the two witnesses?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 17, 2010, 05:35:52 AMI do not see where the chruch is killed
I can only guess. But where I live church after church gets closed (even turned in mosques sometimes)
Maybe all members leaving is death? :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 17, 2010, 08:23:26 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 17, 2010, 05:35:52 AMI do not see where the chruch is killed
I can only guess. But where I live church after church gets closed (even turned in mosques sometimes)
Maybe all members leaving is death? :dontknow:
You my friend are speaking of the buildings of men. I have read your posts you are beyond that mind set, you know the called out is the body of Christ. The Body is not closed or dead, nor is it dying.
I'm not really speaking about buildings.
The buildings are closed because the people leave them; or never entered them in the first place.
So all potential "church people" are spiritually dead.
Although I admit it's possible to worship outside that building I think looking how much people attend to church is a good measuring stick to see how strong religion is in a certain area :2c:
QuoteThe Body is not closed or dead, nor is it dying.
Then it gets smaller everyday.
The state of things here is that in, say 1950, only weird people do not go to church.
But today only weird people go to church. (speaking about public opinion)
I used to believe the same way, about the diminshing of the believers and that I am pretty much alone, but when I would talk to the Lord, He would always remind me of what one of my first teachers told me. He gave me these verses which have helped me much over the years.
1Ki 19:14 And he saith, `I have been very zealous for Jehovah, God of Hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, Thine altars they have thrown down, and Thy prophets they have slain by the sword, and I am left, I, by myself, and they seek my life--to take it.'
1Ki 19:18 and I have left in Israel seven thousand, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that hath not kissed him.'
Well, it then that I begin to shout! Glory Halleujah!
No His Body (the called out) are very much alive, we just cant see em all!
COME ONE BROTHERS AND SISTERS YOU GOTTA HAVE SOMETHING, SOME THOUGHTS. ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE LORD HAS NOT SPOKEN TO YOU ON THIS SUBJECT? YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT? WELL GLORY AND PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOR OF THE WHOLE WORLD :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings
KJVRev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
KJVRev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Hi WW,
When you look up the references to these verses you find that the two olive trees are called the "sons of oil" (Zech. 4:11-14). When you look up the references in verse 14, one is (Zech. 3:7) Notice it says "Thus saith the Lord of host; if thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among THESE THAT STAND BY, notice: (Rev. 11:4). Who are these that stand by? Read (Lev. 8:35). They are the sons of Aaron who are also refered to as the sons of oil.
Aaron's sons offered strange fire and God destroyed them by fire. The sons of Zadok are the ones who stayed faithful to God. Zadok was a son of Aaron.
It is all connected with the temple and the positions that were held.
CHB
Great find about the sons of oil, it also fits in with what I said about the two "anointed ones".
Zechariah 4:5-6
Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
The two things highlighted, the word of the LORD, or the scriptures, and God's Spirit, were identified by Jesus as things that would "testify" of him, in John's gospel. One who "testifies" is a "witness."
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
The two witnesses are said to shut heaven, so it would not rain, like Elijah did in Israel. I suggest the "rain" here represents the word of God, and other gifts of God to the church, that ceased after the apostolic era.
They "turn the waters to blood." In the plagues during the exodus from Egypt, waters were turned to blood so the Egyptians could not drink. The meaning is that the gospel and many of the promises of God to his saints are seen as unpalatable and so are avoided. Prophecy is one example.
The two witnesses "smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will." These are the plagues and other events already specified in the prophecies of scripture. No humans have that power. Neither does the Jewish state, or the church.
How are they killed? The "beast" from the pit represents the deceiver, Satan, who has mislead many Christians, who follow flawed interpretations. There are many ways in which the "two witnesses" have been "killed."
What is the great city? Not Jerusalem, as Jesus was crucified "without the gate." [Hebrews 13:12] The "spiritual" name of the city is Sodom or Egypt, both places from where God's people escaped. This suggests John refers to mystical Babylon, or the world. And Bibles are present, in courts, and libraries, and motels, and are studied in many schools, etc. So they are widely available. Its message has been ridiculed, and discredited, in books, newsgroups, and on TV for example.
The 1,260 days during which they prophesy spans the entire church age, from the first century to now. It is the same as the "time, times, and a half" when the saints are dominated by the "little horn" with "eyes like the eyes of a man," or a human viewpoint. [Daniel 7:25]
It is the period when the saints are scattered. [Daniel 12:7]
It is the time when the holy city is trodden under foot by Gentiles, Revelation 11:2. This holy city is the church. This implies the saints are the "temple" and the true Israel.
It is the time when the church flees to the wilderness where she is nourished. [Revelation 12:6, 14]
It is the last half of the 70th week, the period when Christ confirms his covenant with his church [Daniel 9:26-27]
Doug
Doug wrote: Zechariah 4:5-6
Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD
unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit
, saith the LORD of hosts.
The two things highlighted, the word of the LORD, or the scriptures, and God's Spirit, were identified by Jesus as things that would "testify" of him, in John's gospel. One who "testifies" is a "witness."
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify
of me.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify
of me:
The two witnesses are said to shut heaven, so it would not rain, like Elijah did in Israel. I suggest the "rain" here represents the word of God, and other gifts of God to the church, that ceased after the apostolic era.
They "turn the waters to blood." In the plagues during the exodus from Egypt, waters were turned to blood so the Egyptians could not drink. The meaning is that the gospel and many of the promises of God to his saints are seen as unpalatable and so are avoided. Prophecy is one example.
The two witnesses "smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will." These are the plagues and other events already specified in the prophecies of scripture. No humans have that power. Neither does the Jewish state, or the church.
I really like what you wrote. :thumbsup: :Sparkletooth:
And their dead bodies shall lie in that great city
It cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Jesus
Words used
Two anointed ones, Jesus is one person called The annointed one
Witness, A witness is one person as spoken by Micah in the above post somewhere
Dead bodies, to me means human flesh, what else?
Powers, similar to Old testament prophets
Prophecies, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great day of the lord
Revelation: Angel said, John of Patmos You must prophecy again before many nations
Those who are ready will receive this truth via the spirit, don't worry if you have not got it yet, plenty of time. The prophets might not be Elijah or John but they are prophesied that they would come in some shape or form.
God bless in Jesus name
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 09:58:22 PM
And their dead bodies shall lie in that great city
It cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Jesus
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were prophets; Noah, Enoch, Daniel, and many other prophets did not die in the earthly Jerusalem, but they are included in the heavenly one. Jesus died outside Jerusalem, probably on the mount of Olives, as the Roman soldier standing nearby when Jesus died saw the veil of the temple rent from top to bottom, which implies he must have been on an elevated location east of the temple, and well outside the city, no doubt upon the mount of Olives.
Mark 15:37-39
And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 09:58:22 PM
Words used
Two anointed ones, Jesus is one person called The annointed one
Witness, A witness is one person as spoken by Malachi in the above post somewhere
Dead bodies, to me means human flesh, what else?
John 6:51-52
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?The Jews made the mistake of taking the words of Jesus too literally here, and on other occasions.
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 09:58:22 PM
Powers, similar to Old testament prophets
Prophecies, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great day of the lord
Revelation: Angel said, John of Patmos You must prophecy again before many nations
Those who are ready will receive this truth via the spirit,
Jesus said Elijah had come already.
Matthew 17:12
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.I suggest the "prophet" Malachi spoke of is the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent to his disciples. The Spirit was in Jesus as well as John; "...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." [Revelation 19:10]
Doug
"The SPIRIT itself bears witness with our Spirit, that we are the children of God."
peacemaker
On the personal and individual level the two witnesses are the spirit and the word. The two witnesses speak of the awesome power and word of authority given to the Lord's elect on the pathway to sonship.
The two witness company is not the manifest sons of God, for the manchild of chapter twelve of the Revelation represents the manifest sons who are "caught up unto God, and to His throne" (Rev. 12:5). Upon the throne of the Father the manchild, the manifest sons of God, "rules all nations with a rod of iron" (Rev. 12:5).
Furthermore, the manchild, the manifest sons of God, receives his authority and dominion under the seventh trumpet, where the mystery of God is finished.
The two witnesses, however, receive their ministry of power and authority under the sixth trumpet and they "ascended up to heaven in a cloud." They are caught up to a heavenly place of power and authority, but not to the omnipotence and dominion of the throne! There is a glorious prophetic realm, prefigured by the two witnesses, that God's called and chosen elect enter prior to the manifestation of the sons.
And after the two witnesses or two candlesticks realm the next thing on God's prophetic agenda is THE BIRTH OF THE MANCHILD! That's where we really are in God's program of the ages.
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev37.htm
Quote from: peacemaker on July 19, 2010, 12:23:55 AM
"The SPIRIT itself bears witness with our Spirit, that we are the children of God."
peacemaker
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 12:32:17 AM
On the personal and individual level the two witnesses are the spirit and the word.
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev37.htm
That's where you probably should have ended the quote. :laughing7:
Doug
Perhaps it ends better here:
"THE BIRTH OF THE MANCHILD"
"Because you are sons, the SPIRIT has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba, Father."
As giving a joint testimony, testifying with our spirit that we are children of God.
Know you not, that Jesus Christ is in you?
peacemaker
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 01:07:56 AM
Perhaps it ends better here:
"THE BIRTH OF THE MANCHILD"
Mr. J. Preston Eby may have shot himself in the foot, as he claims "the two witnesses are the spirit and the word," with which I agree, but that implies the 1,260 days must be symbolic of the entire church age, which contradicts what he says about the birth of the manchild.
Revelation 11:3
I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 12:5
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.The same period of 1,260 days applies to both. The manchild is caught up to heaven
before the 1,260 day period begins.
Look at the order of the events in chapter 12: the dragon stands before the woman hoping to devour her child as soon as it was born, in verse 4, which may refer to the attempt by Herod to destroy Christ at his birth; he was caught up to God's throne, in verse 5; then the woman flees to the wilderness for 1,260 days, where she is fed. Following that, there is the great war in heaven.
The birth of the manchild cannot be about the saints being resurrected, which occurs at the
end of the church age.
In the traditional interpretations the manchild is Christ, which is how I understand it. Jesus is also the "firstborn from the dead," which refers not to his natural birth, but his resurrection, which is a spiritual birth.
Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.The woman in Revelation 12 pictures the church, who is clothed with the sun, which represents the gospel, which is the true spiritual light of all mankind. John said about Jesus, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." [John 1:9] John showed that every human is to be enlightened by the gospel. Those who have faith and believe in Christ are pictured by the woman in heaven.
Because the woman flees to the wilderness, the church (which is represented by the woman) can not be identified with a great denomination, that is visible to the world, with its head in Rome, or some other city on the earth. The image of a woman fleeing to the wilderness suggests that the church at times has been hidden from the world, and its light has become very dim.
Are the time periods in Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 the same?
In this prophecy, the woman flees to the wilderness for 1,260 days, and also for "a time, times, and a half." What do these time periods mean?
Since the woman in the prophecy is symbolic, and likewise the sun, the dragon, and the wilderness, the time period for which she remains in the wilderness is symbolic too. The 1,260 days and the "time, times and a half" are figurative. They represent the entire church age, when the gospel goes to the world.
To say this period means a literal 1,260 days, or three and a half years, is to single out one element in an obviously allegorical representation. This mistake is commonly made by dispensationalists. I suggest the two flights to the wilderness by the woman represent two different
perspectives.
The two accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness correspond in the following ways:
1. Both are part of the same vision
2. They involve same woman
3. They have the same duration, 1,260 days, or "a time, times and a half"
4. The woman is nourished both times
5. It is the same wilderness
6. Her place is prepared by God
These accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness differ in at least two ways:
1. The first account occurs before the great war in heaven; the second one occurs after the war, and the victory of the saints.
2. The first time she flees, the woman's perspective is from ground level, while the second time, it is from above, as she is equipped with two wings of an eagle, which allow her to soar high above the earth. This represents a divine point of view, in contrast to a human viewpoint.
Exodus 19:4 says that God bore the Israelites upon eagle's wings. Isaiah speaks of eagles' wings in connection with a renewal of strength:
Isaiah 40:31
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.So, the prophecy of Revelation 12 indicates that those who insist upon
literalism may need to take another look at the scriptures, with a different point of view. The human point of view is the earthly one, from ground level. It is the point of view that is associated with the little horn, in the prophecy of Daniel 7. There is a link between this chapter and the prophecy about the woman flying to the wilderness for "a time, times and a half." This expression is first mentioned in Daniel 7:25.
Daniel said, "behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." [Daniel 7:8] These "eyes like the eyes of man" represent a human viewpoint.
The spiritual viewpoint is one that is enlightened by God, and by an understanding of the gospel. This is not a literalistic approach. An eagle soars at a great height and views the earth from above, and so, in Revelation 12, the two wings of an eagle given to the woman represent a divine viewpoint.
Doug
I am posting Bro. Eby's writings as further study in scripture.
If you care to refute them, that, of course, is your prerogative.
However, I am very interested in what his response would be to you.
He is a very congenial man, do write him and let us know on the boards.
BTW,
Where does he say the 1260 is literal???
That's the last thing you would hear from him! lol.
Doug,
After I read you post again — and again — I got even more confused as to your message. Just lost.
:HeartThrob: The MANCHILD are the manifested Sons of God. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 05:53:40 AM
Doug,
After I read you post again — and again — I got even more confused as to your message. Just lost.
In the paragraph you quoted, Mr. J. Preston Eby suggests that the two witnesses may be identified with "the spirit and the word." Then he says they "receive their ministry of power and authority under the sixth trumpet."
IMO, this is an absurd position, and contradicts a number of scriptures!
Psalm 119:89
For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Psalm 105:8
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. When did the Spirit of God
not have power and authority? We first read of it in Genesis 1.
Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.So to imply their authority is limited to the 6th trumpet is an unworthy thing to say of either God's Spirit, or the scriptures.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 05:53:40 AM
:HeartThrob: The MANCHILD are the manifested Sons of God. :HeartThrob:
The idea that the manchild in Revelation 12:5 is the Christian church together with Christ seems to have been a doctrine made popular by J. N. Darby.
He wrote in his Synopsis of Revelation:
Satan, as the open infidel enemy of God and God's power in Christ, sought to devour the child as soon as born, who was to have the rule of the earth from God. But the child, Christ, and the assembly with Christ, is caught away to God and His throne---does not receive the power yet, but is placed in the very source of it from which it flows. It is not the rapture as regards joy; for it goes back to Christ Himself, but the placing Him and the assembly in and with Him, in the seat from which power flows for the establishment of the kingdom. There is no time for this: Christ and the assembly are all one. But the woman-the Jews, after this fly into the wilderness...Darby's interpretation is flawed, IMO, as the woman is the church of all ages, and corresponds to the heavenly Jerusalem in Heb. 12:22-23, and the temple of God in the previous chapter. In Eph. 2:19-22 the prophets and apostles are identified with the foundation of the church. The church is also called "the mother of us all" in Gal. 4:26. This all corresponds to John's description of the woman in heaven in Revelation 12 who represents the church, "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" and "the spirits of just men made perfect."
Darby's interpretation separates the Christian church from its foundation, which includes the saints and prophets of the OT, along with the apostles. And his doctrine has produced a lot of evil fruit, tens of thousands of sects and cults, and major denominations have split over dispensationalism.
Doug
13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
--Rev 12
Seems to me we might be literally seeing this being played out in the Gulf of Mexico. If Satan is not in charge of that unfolding disaster, I don't know who is.
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2010, 02:32:52 PM
13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
--Rev 12
Seems to me we might be literally seeing this being played out in the Gulf of Mexico. If Satan is not in charge of that unfolding disaster, I don't know who is.
The flood from the mouth of the serpent pictures a flood of flawed interpretations, and false doctrines, which threaten to carry away the woman, who is the church. Many people here would probably agree that it is spiritual rather than literal, and represents some kind of
information flood. I suggest it corresponds to the flood that is mentioned in Daniel 9:26; "the end thereof shall be with a flood." Both prophecies refer to the same thing. It includes a flood of flawed interpretations of prophecy.
The flood becoming swallowed up by the earth relates to the remedy. How does the
earth swallow up the flood? Well, I posted some ideas on it previously, but recently, I have written about the land promises to Israel, and how they might apply to the church, the land being seen as a
type or
figure of the invisible things promised to the saints. When these promises, and the significance of the "land" in them is understood, the flood from the serpent's mouth gets swallowed up. A recent post relating to this can be seen here (http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.christnet.christianlife/msg/afe3f46555922f56), or see this article (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/JLP/JLP.php?page=SF).
Doug
Doug,
You need to start using this thing ——> :2c:
It's just your opinion.
Quote from: DougThe flood from the mouth of the serpent pictures a flood of flawed interpretations, and false doctrines, which threaten to carry away the woman, who is the church.
Yes, I could see that. If I were to spiritualize this, I would say that it is LIES--that is the only thing that comes out of the mouth of the serpent--he is the father of lies.
We are lied to all day long, and now, if that were possible, we are lied to more than at any time in history--about everything. It's called propaganda, otherwise known as the science of lying. They've raised it from an art form to a science!
Glen Beck did a great piece on this last week.
Seems the Nazis learned a lot from from the U.S. about this parlor trick.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 04:31:03 PM
It's just your opinion.
Thanks for the reminder. That's what we all have, huh Dave - whatever little piece(s) that God, in His wisdom, has allowed us to see -at the time. We all see through a glass darkly.
Where's Ananias?
Quote from: Doug
I suggest it corresponds to the flood that is mentioned in Daniel 9:26; "the end thereof shall be with a flood." Both prophecies refer to the same thing. It includes a flood of flawed interpretations of prophecy.
Hi Doug,
I believe you are right about Daniel 9:26 corresponding to (Rev. 12:16). But what if this has already happened when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on July 19, 2010, 07:08:50 PM
Quote from: Doug
I suggest it corresponds to the flood that is mentioned in Daniel 9:26; "the end thereof shall be with a flood." Both prophecies refer to the same thing. It includes a flood of flawed interpretations of prophecy.
Hi Doug,
I believe you are right about Daniel 9:26 corresponding to (Rev. 12:16). But what if this has already happened when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD?
CHB
Hi CHB,
I am glad we agree on that point. However,
IMO, preterism is part of the flood!
Doug
:cloud9: AMEN, yes it is......IMO also....it has too many flaws.....
Just from my perspective, I'd personally specify absolute FULL preterism. No doubt some amazing, earth-shattering things happened in 70 A.D. I believe we passed from one age to another, an age like no other to that point - when Jesus' blood became active and applied to the church. However, IMO, FULL preterism reads even more into things than are actually in play. :2c:
(We do have too many ism's, don't we? :laughing7:) **Sorry micah, I reposted while you were typing, so this statement belongs just above yours. :thumbsup:
:cloud9: This is going to be long, there's a lot of thoughts here to get out to tie it all in together.
Here's how I see the dragon's flood. Dragon's flood = darkness being poured out on all that are in the inner court realm right now (also true spiritual priesthood).
This is why it says the darkness grows as we approach the day of the Lord, because the wheat and tares/darkness are RAISED UP together, ie. note that the dragon is on the same "playing field". To be raised up, they need water/the Spirit.
Would it shock you to know the Spirit of the Lord is giving them life as well? The RAIN falls on the just and the UNJUST equally. You can't see the moon and the stars, if it's not dark outside.
Now for the reason the earth swallows it. Earth = outer court ones, who are not of the priesthood being raised up. The outer court ones/wilderness will eat anything, the husk or the grain, they have no discerning of spirit, because they skipped the gifts of the Spirit brought about the baptism in the Spirit.
There are those of the priesthood that will also fall back (falling stars) to the outer court in this time, because they did not press in. This is why He said I would that you were either cold (outer court) or hot (Holy of Holies), but if you are lukewarm (inner court, BUT refusing to press in), I will spew you out of My mouth.
To be spewed out of His mouth, is to be sent back to the outer court realm/wilderness. What happens is, they have no covering (the outer court had no covering), are as a woman/soul with no covering, which is what allowed the Nephalim/angels to join themselves to them, producing giants.
This has been going on for 2000 years, but is about to come to an end, as the mind of Christ has been preparing a place to lay His "head". The authority RESTS upon the shoulders. As we truly enter into His rest, it means all the giants have been slain.
Angels means messages or messengers, and giants were in the promised land that had to be dealt with. We are in the process of dealing with the giants in the land right now. These giants of imaginations that exalt themselves above the knowledge (to be one with as a man with his wife) of God, must be dealt with.
What happens is, as those of the priesthood that are pressing in, are delivered of these giants/darkness/tares, they are cast into the sea. The sea is the same as the outer court realm. There was a brazen laver in the outer court where the blood (the life is in the blood) of the sacrifices was washed off the hands (speaks of works) of the priests.
The laver or sea is the same as waters/peoples in the outer court realm, ie. the waters below the firmament, and the letter of the Word. Spiritually speaking, it's the realm of the measure of faith He gives every man to receive Him.
The firmament is called heaven, remember, and is the realm of the spiritual priesthood, ie. we were seated with Him in heavenly places by the baptism in the Spirit.
The giants/darkness/tares is as the mountain (of flesh, ie. lust, greed, hate, ect.) that is cast into the sea, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed.
Brazen/brass/bronze speaks of judgment. The heavens over us can become as brass = judgment, no prayer getting through. The animal carnal beastly natures via their blood, were cleansed here by the priests, as they washed their hands from the sacrifice. Putting those natures to death in us, is making of ourselves a living sacrifice.
This is what is happening now, and why the darkness (out there) is growing darker. He is dividing the waters by sending the darkness to those who would not press in beyond the outer court realm. He pointed to this when He cast the legion (a legion is 2000) into the swine (will eat husk or grain). Note what day He did it on.
The message in that was, that the fullness of the darkness of mens hearts is being cast out and into the outer court (outer darkness) where their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when they see what they could have had. This is how the "earth"/outer court helps the woman/true church.
Ever wonder why Lot was spared even after he offered his daughters up to the men of Sodom? This is why. He was seeing thru a darkened glass (darkened soul) what the Spirit was doing, ie. the body doing what it saw it's head do. The daughters (they did not press in to "become" a son) are as the fleshly outer court realm, and they are being turned over to darkness.
This is not a totally "bad" ending through, because all of God's judgments are unto victory. They are "marked" to return. The queen of Sheba (comes from root word meaning to return again) came to Solomon (type of the Melchisedek priesthood getting ready to be raised up) to see all of His riches of His kingdom, and when she saw them and his WISDOM, there was no more breath (finally gave up the ghost, ie. died to self) in her.
The serpent in Genesis, has grown to become a dragon by Revelation. The thoughts of men's hearts/soul is only evil continually, and these thoughts have taken a form, the form of the dragon. The serpent needed a woman/soul to reproduce. The soul is like a womb. Collectively, the souls of men produced this dragon.
This is also why we of the priesthood/inner court are not to judge (in condemnation) what is going on "out there" in outer darkness/outer court as it gets darker, because it has come in part from the HEARTS of the priesthood that He is judging FIRST.
Out of the abundance of the HEART, the mouth speaks, and judgment BEGINS in the house of the Lord, whose house we are. Remember that, the body (outer court ones) can only do what they see (perceive thru the darkened glass of the soul) their head do.
The spiritual priesthood was made to be one with THE Head, and as such were made to be a "head"/covering over them, just as the inner court/firmament was/is a covering over the waters below it. Blessings...
Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2010, 08:27:46 PM
Just from my perspective, I'd personally specify absolute FULL preterism. No doubt some amazing, earth-shattering things happened in 70 A.D. I believe we passed from one age to another, an age like no other to that point - when Jesus' blood became active and applied to the church. However, IMO, FULL preterism reads even more into things than are actually in play. :2c:
:cloud9: Exactly :thumbsup:
Quote from: CardinalThe message was the fullness of the darkness of mens hearts is being cast out and into the outer court (outer darkness) where their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when they see what they could have had.
The serpent in Genesis, has grown to become a dragon by Revelation. This is how the "earth"/outer court helps the woman/true church.
This is also why we of the priesthood/inner court are not to judge (in condemnation) what is going on "out there" in outer darkness/outer court as it gets darker, because it has come in part from the HEARTS of the priesthood that He is judging FIRST.
This is where I get lost with what you are saying. Are you saying that the evil that is being cast out of us is invading others as some kind of conservation of evil? That we are somehow responsible for all the darkness, even if passively?
The "land promise" is prominent in the promises God gave to Abraham, and several scholars have said it has a spiritual application to Christians. I think that this idea provides a background and context to the commandment of Jesus, "flee to the mountains" in Matthew 24:16. For details see this article (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/JLP/JLP.php?page=GA).
Jesus directed these words to "them which be in Judaea." I suggest that this reference to Judea need not be understood literally. In his prophecy, those who are in Judea, may refer not to ethnic Jews, or Palestinians, but the saints, those who Paul described as "the circumcision," who are spiritually Israelites, and children of Abraham by faith in Christ. Paul said,
Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
The mountains that Jesus referred to are mountains of Israel, and they are symbolic of the revelations of God, including the prophecies, and promises, and the teachings of Jesus in the sermon of the mount.
The land promise made to Abraham and to Israel provides a background for the 7 trumpets in Revelation. Just as the capture of Jericho heralded the Israelites taking possession of their promised land, the prophecy of the seven trumpets of Revelation heralds the saints taking possession of their promised inheritance, which includes an understanding of all the prophecies in the scriptures. Jesus promised his disciples,
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The connection between the seven trumpets in Revelation and the seven trumpets that were blown before the capture of Jericho by the Israelites, prior to the destruction of the city, shows that there is also a promised land to be possessed by the church. The literal land that Israel possessed in the time of Joshua was a type and figure of spiritual things promised to those who are in Christ.
The prophecy of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is located in the midst of the account of the seven trumpets, between the 6th and 7th trumpet. The account of the two witnesses tells of their death, and their remarkable revival. After they are killed, their corpses are exposed in the street, and are subjected to ridicule by the world, for three days and a half. Then, they suddenly revive!
The two witnesses may be identified as the scriptures, and the Spirit, which fit the description given of their role in the prophecy, up to the point that they are considered lifeless, and become topics of scorn and ridicule by their enemies; they have been overcome, and "killed" by the beast from the bottomless pit, which clearly represents Satan. How has this happened? The prophecies of scripture are understood by Christians in terms of the theories of either preterism, or dispensationalism, which are opposite, and each cancels the other, which effectively "kills" the power of the church's witness to God's word! Paul said,
1 Corinthians 14:6-9
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
This is how the church's message seems to the world; an uncertain sound; Christians fighting one another; almost every prophecy is viewed in either one of two ways; it either describes Jews in 70 AD, or Jews in a future seven year tribulation, which the church escapes by being raptured to heaven! Who could have any real confidence in such beliefs?
John's prophecy of the two witnesses has come true; the word and the Spirit are lifeless corpses, but they are not buried. The prophecies of scripture are studied by scholars, and discussed, debated, many books are published about them, but they are rarely understood or believed. Paul spoke of the last days as characterized by people, "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: ... Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." [2 Timothy 3:5, 7]
What remains to be seen is how the two witnesses revive, and ascend to heaven in a cloud. Their revival suggests that theories of preterism and dispensationalism will be abandoned by the saints, in favor of a better system of interpretation of prophecy.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2010, 09:58:38 PM
Quote from: CardinalThe message was the fullness of the darkness of mens hearts is being cast out and into the outer court (outer darkness) where their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when they see what they could have had.
The serpent in Genesis, has grown to become a dragon by Revelation. This is how the "earth"/outer court helps the woman/true church.
This is also why we of the priesthood/inner court are not to judge (in condemnation) what is going on "out there" in outer darkness/outer court as it gets darker, because it has come in part from the HEARTS of the priesthood that He is judging FIRST.
This is where I get lost with what you are saying. Are you saying that the evil that is being cast out of us is invading others as some kind of conservation of evil? That we are somehow responsible for all the darkness, even if passively?
:cloud9: Remember me sharing about what He said to me one day when I was getting ready for work and it came on the news about a man that had abducted, tortured and murdered a little girl? I was so grieved over this, I said out loud to Him, not really expecting an answer, "LORD, why do You allow this to go on?!"
He replied, "Well, it's YOUR (spiritual priesthood/inner court) fault!"
I said, shocked, "How is it OUR fault???"
He said, "The body can only do what it sees it's head do. I made you (priesthood) to be one with the Head. So when they see you hate your brother IN YOUR HEART, they go out and kill theirs."
The body sees thru a glass darkly (darkened soul), what it's head does, in the spiritual realm. Hate and murder are as the same sin for this reason.
Also, He told them that when they lusted after a woman IN THEIR HEART, they had already committed adultery. We personally may not with our physical body commit adultery, but because it is in the heart of the priesthood "head", the body (outer court) commits it.
This is why God spared Cain and MARKED (Sheba-ed) him. The hate was in Abel's heart, so Cain, "seeing" thru a darkened glass, murdered him. Abel was the one made righteous (outward cleaning of cup had been done), he had the correct offering (firstfruits, an offering WITH blood) as does the priesthood.
The blood of Christ is the Holy Ghost, which speaks better things. He SHED (His blood is shed as a garment, a covering, a baptism)forth that which they saw AND HEARD, on the day of Pentecost, where the Holy Ghost spoke about the marvelous works of God among men. The blood in the natural tabernacle was used to sprinkle all of the utensils, furniture, and the PRIESTS, to SANCTIFY (means to separate for holy use) them.
Abel's blood cried out for vengance; vengance would have been equal punishment, ie. murder. The life is in the blood, the soul is the life that is in the blood. Eve was the mother of all living (outside of being IN Him).
Heaven's principles rules over the affairs of men, even if they do not realize it. They have only the outer cleaning of the cup, we are expected to press in to have Him do the inner cleaning of the cup, because to whom much is given, much is expected.
Hope this makes it clearer. It's hard to put into words, sometimes. Blessings...
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 07:02:14 PM
Where's Ananias?
...ask and you shall receive.
Thanks Card!
2Ti 4:3 for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers--itching in the hearing,
2Ti 4:4 and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.
Quote from: Doug on July 19, 2010, 07:17:20 PM
Quote from: CHB on July 19, 2010, 07:08:50 PM
Quote from: Doug
I suggest it corresponds to the flood that is mentioned in Daniel 9:26; "the end thereof shall be with a flood." Both prophecies refer to the same thing. It includes a flood of flawed interpretations of prophecy.
Hi Doug,
I believe you are right about Daniel 9:26 corresponding to (Rev. 12:16). But what if this has already happened when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD?
CHB
Hi CHB,
I am glad we agree on that point. However, IMO, preterism is part of the flood!
Doug
Hi Doug,
I am not a preterest, at least I don't consider myself to be one but I do believe more things in Revelation have been fulfilled than we realize sometimes.
Daniel was told that the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Revelation is a revealing book, a time of the end. John was an apostle of the Jew's. the Churches existed in John's day. Jesus was refered to as a LAMB {before crucifixion}. In the very first verse it says "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PAST. The word shortly surely cannot mean 2000 years later?
My personal opinion is that there are still things that must happen and not all things have been fulfilled. Now, what is still to be fulfilled is still a question?
CHB
:cloud9: But again, God's day is a thousand years, so only 2 days have "passed", which would be "shortly". The things have come to pass, are coming to pass, and will come to pass until He be all in all. My :2c: Blessings...
:cloud9: Also, I've said many times, that what He shows me is sort of "reverse engineering". Seeing how things were done, the nuts and bolts principles of it, how it's been fulfilled, being fulfilled, will be fulfilled, sort of all at the same time. Blessings...
Whoa
They crossed the Jordan at the time of the flood--because the river always floods at harvest time. So of course, you would expect a flood from Satan at the end time that the [harvested] church would have to cross through.
Crossing over the Jordan symbolizes crossing from death to life.
The priests carrying the ark [on their shoulders] are showing them the way.
I'm getting kind of dizzy--must be the heat... :laughing7:
14And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people;
15And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)
16That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.
17And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.
--Joshua 3
"Jordan"
H3381
ירד
yârad
yaw-rad'
A primitive root; to descend (literally to go downwards; or conventionally to a lower region, as the shore, a boundary, the enemy, etc.; or figuratively to fall); causatively to bring down (in all the above applications): - X abundantly, bring down, carry down, cast down, (cause to) come (-ing) down, fall (down), get down, go (-ing) down (-ward), hang down, X indeed, let down, light (down), put down (off), (cause to, let) run down, sink, subdue, take down.
Quote from: Cardinal on July 20, 2010, 01:17:20 AM
:cloud9: But again, God's day is a thousand years, so only 2 days have "passed", which would be "shortly". The things have come to pass, are coming to pass, and will come to pass until He be all in all. My :2c: Blessings...
Hi Cardinal,
Are you saying it is like a threefold prophecy? I do know that sometimes things have a repeat, a lot of time in threes. If this is what you are saying, you could be right.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on July 20, 2010, 01:01:40 AM
Hi Doug,
I am not a preterest, at least I don't consider myself to be one but I do believe more things in Revelation have been fulfilled than we realize sometimes.
Daniel was told that the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Revelation is a revealing book, a time of the end. John was an apostle of the Jew's. the Churches existed in John's day. Jesus was refered to as a LAMB {before crucifixion}. In the very first verse it says "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PAST. The word shortly surely cannot mean 2000 years later?
There is an application of the prophecy in every age, I think; it applies to the entire history of the church, and not, as dispensationalists say about chapters 4 to 18, to a seven year period of tribulation in the future.
The Puritans were certain that it referred to their own times.
William Fulke on Revelation 12 (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/GR/GRS-index.php?page=FulkeR12.html) (1573)
George Gifford's sermons on Revelation (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/GR/Gifford.php) (1599)
The Two Witnesses by John Napier (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/GR/GRS-index.php?page=Napier.html) (1611)
Quote from: CHB on July 20, 2010, 01:01:40 AM
My personal opinion is that there are still things that must happen and not all things have been fulfilled. Now, what is still to be fulfilled is still a question?
CHB
I think it is true that many things that have been fulfilled are yet to be understood and explained.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2010, 01:47:55 AM
Whoa
They crossed the Jordan at the time of the flood--because the river always floods at harvest time. So of course, you would expect a flood from Satan at the end time that the [harvested] church would have to cross through.
Crossing over the Jordan symbolizes crossing from death to life.
The priests carrying the ark [on their shoulders] are showing them the way.
I'm getting kind of dizzy--must be the heat... :laughing7:
14And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people;
15And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)
16That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.
17And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.
--Joshua 3
"Jordan"
H3381
ירד
yârad
yaw-rad'
A primitive root; to descend (literally to go downwards; or conventionally to a lower region, as the shore, a boundary, the enemy, etc.; or figuratively to fall); causatively to bring down (in all the above applications): - X abundantly, bring down, carry down, cast down, (cause to) come (-ing) down, fall (down), get down, go (-ing) down (-ward), hang down, X indeed, let down, light (down), put down (off), (cause to, let) run down, sink, subdue, take down.
:cloud9: Yes.....it's a type of outer court experience also, ie. dying to the flesh, leaving Egypt.
Quote from: CHB on July 20, 2010, 02:01:08 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on July 20, 2010, 01:17:20 AM
:cloud9: But again, God's day is a thousand years, so only 2 days have "passed", which would be "shortly". The things have come to pass, are coming to pass, and will come to pass until He be all in all. My :2c: Blessings...
Hi Cardinal,
Are you saying it is like a threefold prophecy? I do know that sometimes things have a repeat, a lot of time in threes. If this is what you are saying, you could be right.
CHB
:cloud9: Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. Spiritually, the Word "means" the same thing to a 1st century Christian as it does a 21st century Christian. It's a spiritual message to mature thru. Since the Spirit controls what is "seen", some things have been hidden revealed in progressive "installments" over time. Blessings.....
The newspaper story below, about a dog who was offered communion in an Anglican church, IMO seems like a good example of how the world rejoices over the death of the two witnesses.
Revelation 11:10
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Dog's Anglican communion leaves tongues wagging
Joe O'Connor, National Post (http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/Anglican+communion+leaves+tongues+wagging/3325944/story.html), With Files From The Daily Telegraph · Tuesday, Jul. 27, 2010
An Anglican priest has apologized for offering communion to a dog, but the act has repercussions for a Church already divided by liberalization measures.
"Communion is a symbol of the sacrifice of Jesus's body; he died for all of us," said Cheryl Chang, director of the Anglican Network in Canada (ANIC). "But I don't recall anything from the Scripture saying anything about Jesus dying for the salvation of our pets.''
Marguerite Rea, the interim priest at St. Peter's Anglican Church in Toronto, offered Trapper -- a four-year-old German shepherd-Rhodesian Ridgeback cross --communion during a church service in late June. It quickly became symbolic of an ever-widening theological rift between the conservative brand of Anglicanism observed by ANIC congregations, which, for example, reject same-sex marriage, and a more liberal-leaning Anglican Church of Canada that condones the rite.
St. Peter's has long stood out as a church with a reputation for being open. Once a year, a service is conducted to bless pets. Even so, Trapper had never set a paw inside the church before his appearance in the pews. And neither had his owner, Duncan Keith.
The pair frequently park themselves on St. Peter's front steps to engage in some quiet reflection. After allegedly being harassed by police during the G20 summit, Mr. Keith and his best friend wandered inside. Rev. Rea invited them to stay.
"The minister welcomed me and said come up and take communion," Mr. Keith said.
"And Trapper came up with me and the minister gave him communion as well," Mr. Keith said.
"There was an old lady in the front just beaming when she saw this. Ninety nine-point-nine per cent of the people in the church love Trapper, and the kids play with him."
One parishioner, though, filed a formal complaint with Bishop Patrick Yu in early July. The man has since left the congregation.
Meanwhile, the dog-loving interim priest, buffeted by the fallout from Trapper's tale ever since the story became public last week, delivered a mea culpa during her sermon on Sunday. Rev. Rea apologized to those who may have been hurt or embarrassed by her actions and rationalized the initial gesture as a way of welcoming a stranger -- and nothing more.
In an interview yesterday, the strain remained evident in Rev. Rea's voice. "Please," she said. "It's over. I said that the incident is over. Thank you very much. God bless."
Catholics, international media outlets and religious pundits south of the border have all taken note of the goings-on at St. Peter's, expressing an array of opinions ranging from the proverbial shrug of the shoulders to outright shock.
"The intention might be to make a visitor feel comfortable, but the real message being sent is that the members of the church don't take communion seriously--so newcomers shouldn't take it seriously either," commentator Joe Carter wrote on First Things, a magazine website dedicated to religious issues in the wider culture. "But if nothing is sacred, then you no longer have a church; you just have a religious club that is going to the dogs."
The majority of the congregation at St. Peter's, including their newest member, disagrees.
"It was just one person who got their nose out of joint," Mr. Keith said. "Holy smokes. This is small stuff. I thought it was innocent and it made me think of the blessing of the animals. This has blown me away. The church is even getting emails from Catholics."
Doug
Here is an explanation of the death of the two witnesses and their corpses left lying in the street, from James Burton Coffman's Commentary (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=011) on the prophecy in Revelation 11.
What is indicated is the attractiveness and acceptability of the witness of the "dead" churches.
"Here is pictured the church accommodating herself to the ways of the world, proclaiming no unpleasant doctrine, demanding no painful sacrifices, and with the world hailing with satisfaction the prospect of an easy yoke and the cheap purchase of both time and eternity." F60
Only this kind of a dead corpse would be allowed indefinitely a favored location on Broadway. Preachers and commentators indicating by every word they write or speak that they do not believe the Bible to be God's word at all have indeed "killed it" of any significance for those who are deceived by them; but do they "bury it" or even allow it to be buried? Certainly not. They continue to devote their lives to writing and talking about it.
"How great is the delusion of the church, when her silver is turned to dross, her wine to water, and when her voice no longer torments them that dwell upon the earth." F61
Many excellent examples of this phenomenon are visible in those scholarly enemies of the New Testament who deny, absolutely, that it is an inspired, divine revelation from God, but who nevertheless devote their whole lives to writing and lecturing about it.
The two quotations that are included here, F60 and F61, are from: Charles H. Roberson, Studies in Revelation (Tyler, Texas: P. D. Wilmeth, P.O. Box 3305, 1957), p. 74 & 75.
Doug
Going back to the original topic . . .my two cents is that the two witnesses are Christ and the Holy Spirit in him . .there's no guess work as to when they died and three days later resurrected .. .
Quote from: Nathan on August 04, 2010, 05:00:46 PM
Going back to the original topic . . .my two cents is that the two witnesses are Christ and the Holy Spirit in him . .there's no guess work as to when they died and three days later resurrected .. .
The first chapter of John refers to Christ as "the Word," and so, the "Word" and the Holy Spirit are two witnesses; they "testify" of Jesus.
The two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth allude to the two trees in the garden of Eden; man was given dominion over the earth and so is "the Lord of the earth."
The fundamental idea that underlies the prophecy is that the saints are the "circumcision," and the "temple" of God, while the "outer court" that was left unmeasured, is given to Gentiles. They "trample the holy city." Also, the 3.5 years, 1,260 days, 42 months, etc., represents the entire age of the church, or the remaining part of it; their revival is seen by their enemies, causes great fear, and it happens all over the world.
Below are comments by Charles D. Alexander in his Revelation Spiritually Understood (http://www.allbygrace.com/alexrev047-13.html) on the reviving of the two witnesses.
The spirit of life from God entering into the fallen witnesses so that they stand upon their feet once more to the terror of those who had been rejoicing in their death, has an obvious connection with the prophecy of Ezekiel 37 - the resurrection of the dry bones of the house of Israel after the Babylonian captivity: "Come from the four winds O breath, and breathe upon these slain that they may live ..." The word used for "breath" here is the same as for Spirit in Genesis 1:2, "The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters ...."
As Ezekiel prophesied "the breath came into them and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army". (chap. 37:10) Compare the words in verse 11 of our chapter in Revelation, "the spirit of life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet."
As the OT church was given into the hand of the Babylon foe till God's time of deliverance came, so in the history of the Christian Church, the power of this world is often permitted for a season to appear to triumph over the church of Christ, until in the pleasure of God the church is revived and stands upon its feet once more. The same expression, "the Spirit of life" is used by Paul in Romans 8:2 - "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
In short we have here the resuscitation of the gospel testimony in the world after it has been apparently extinguished.
The ascending to heaven in a cloud is symbolic of the elevation of the Lord's people and their testimony above the power of this world, and is an emblem of the final triumph of the kingdom of Christ at the end of time when the redeemed church is completed, and exalted with Christ to the eternal throne.
See Revelation 4:1.The voice "Come up hither", is the voice of Christ. The church and her witnesses will "ascend to heaven in a cloud" and their enemies will behold them - seated in glory around the throne, clothed in white raiment and palms in their hands, singing the new song of eternal redemption accomplished. "And there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." The tables are turned and the world's verdict upon Christ's people is reversed. The "ascending to heaven in a cloud" is similar to the ascension of the LORD.In order to experience this reviving, the church probably needs to recognize its spiritually "dead" condition. It is certainly "scattered" as Daniel described in Daniel 12:7: "when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." Tens of thousands of denominations have fulfilled this.
Doug
Has anyone been given to believe that the two witness's could be Water and Blood?
1Jn 5:6 This one is he who did come through water and blood--Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,
1Jn 5:7 because three are who are testifying1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.
Its just my :2c: again
:cloud9: Spirit/blood, Word/water........works for me...... :thumbsup:
Someone may have already mentioned this, but don't the 2 witnesses lay in the streets dead for a few days while people marvel over it/them?
:cloud9: My :2c:.....Streets = places of laying down (outer court), walking (inner court), or standing (Holy of Holies). He does all 3 in us, every man in his order as He is restoring us.
We are His streets, that He is paving with gold (nature of God) like the ark of the covenant was covered within and without with gold.
It takes both the Spirit and the Word to "resurrect" Him (as the completed Spirit and Word in union with the Father) to STAND in the "streets" (mature sons).
And "they" have been rejoicing over the witnesses "death" in the streets for 2000+ years, but not much longer.....Blessings...
Moses brought us out: what happened in "the prophet like unto Moses," Jesus the head, His uniting us with Him in resurrection and ascension by pouring forth the Holy Spirit on Pentecost which transfered us out of the kingdom of darkness. But, Joshua brought us in: what happens in the latter days to the Overcomers, the royal priesthood, in the fulfillment of Tabernacles.
Elijah is a kind of former house (Solomon's Temple) that is a replica of the body of Christ at His first coming and Elisha is the latter house (the restoration Temple on returning from Babylon) of greater glory, what God will do with us, the greater works bringing about His reign as we transition into the age of Tabernacles, the Millennial reign.
So, the individuals Moses and Elijah, that was then. Corporate Joshua and Elisha, this is now!
Quote from: Cardinal on August 06, 2010, 08:26:04 AM
:cloud9: My :2c:.....Streets = places of laying down (outer court), walking (inner court),
Quote from this thread (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6276.msg66042#msg66042)
Street
Quote4113 platei/a plateia {plat-i'-ah}
Meaning: 1) a broad way, a street
Origin: from 4116;; n f
Usage: AV - street 9; 9
A few alternative translations
(Mace) in the midst of the area, surrounded by the river, was the tree of life, which had twelve fruit-seasons, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
(Diaglott-NT) In midst of the broad place of her and of the river on this side and on that side a wood of life, bearing fruits twelve, according to month each one yielding the fruit of itself; and the leaves of the wood for healing of the nations.
(LITV) In the midst of its street and of the river, from here and from there, was a tree of life producing twelve fruits: according to one month each yielding its fruit. And the leaves of the tree were for healing of the nations.
Maybe street should be translated as square?
Mace seems to say that the tree is on a island in the middle of the river.
Rev 22:2 The cross of life standing on a island in the middle of the river.
The square is bit like a court Cardinal.
And in a way the holies of holies is a island.... :beach:
Below are some of Hengstenberg's comments on the prophecy of the two witnesses. I have broken it up into paragraphs for improved readability.
The Revelation of St John: expounded for those who search the Scriptures, Volume 1 (http://books.google.ca/books?pg=PA483&id=b5UXAAAAYAAJ)
By Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg
p. 479
The church appears under the symbol of the temple, which for so many centuries was the seat and external representation of the kingdom of God, and hence occurs, otherwise than in vision, in a series of passages in the New Testament as the designation of the church, John ii. 19 ; Mark xiv. 58; Eph. ii. 21, 22; 1 Tim. iii. 15; 2 Cor. vi. 16; 2 Thess. ii. 4; Heb. iii. 6.
The temple proper denotes those, who are deeply filled and penetrated by the spirit of the church, the outer court those, who are only superficially affected. The rising up forms the contrast to the sitting. But both the sitting and the rising belong only to the vision. In the reality, it is the transition from rest to activity, which is denoted by the rising.
The import of the measuring is determined by the opposite throwing out. It is measured as far as the preservation is to go. Where the measuring ceases, there the line of abandoning begins. The figurative representation here rests upon Ezekiel, by whom in ch. xl. the restored temple was measured. The symbolical action here has respect to the preserving of the object represented.
Beside the temple proper, which in the material building at Jerusalem consisted of the Most Holy Place, the residence of God, and the sanctuary, as the ideal abode of believers, the altar also is measured or preserved; and by this we can only understand the altar of burnt offering--comp. on ch. vi. 9. It is here transferred to the temple itself, for the therein can only refer to the temple: measure the temple of God, and the altar (in it), and them that worship in it. This shows that we are here entirely on an ideal territory. In the temple of Jerusalem the altar of burnt-offering stood in the real place of resort to the people, in the outer court; but here it is transferred to their ideal dwelling-place, to the temple itself. The meaning of the altar we learn from ch. vi. 9-11: under the constraining power of love believers present themselves there as a free-will sacrifice to him who has redeemed them with his blood.
Therefore, however hard the world may press, how great soever may be the desolations which it effects in the outworks, still the church remains in existence; the spirit of joyful sacrifice is preserved; true believers continually abide. The court in ver. 2, as contrasted with the temple proper, must not be limited to the outer court, but denotes whatever belonged to the sanctuary beside the temple proper: the without the temple forms a manifest contrast to the within. To designate by the court without those who have not in their souls been penetrated by the spirit of the church, was the more natural, since, according to the phraseology even of the Old Testament, true believers dwell in the house of God, and come into his sanctuary, while the multitude, who are but externally related to the church, only tread the courts--see Isa. i. 12. That the court should be thrown away, and given up to the heathen, stands related to the treading down of the city, as an effect to its cause.
The overflowing of the church by the world brings it to pass, that from many, who have not, shall be taken away even that which they have. Nothing but the strong mound of a firm faith can resist their powerful billows.--The two and forty months contain only an apparent determination of time; as, indeed, all numbers in the Apocalypse have only an ideal signification; they belong not so properly to the chronological, as to the symbolical forum. The common signature of the dominion of the world over the church in the Revelation, resting on the prophecies of Daniel (comp. at ch. xii. 6, xiii. 6), is the three and a half, in which we have only to think of the broken seven, the signature of the church. So that the meaning is here conveyed, that however the world may lift itself up, however it may proudly triumph, it can never attain to anything complete and lasting. These three and a half years return again in different forms; a time, two times, and an half-time, ch. xii. 14, forty and two months, here and in ch. xiii. 5, 1260 days in ch. xii. 6. In the number of the beast also in ch. xiii. 18, the same thing substantially holds as in these numbers. We have here before us a representation, which does not bring into view some particular period of time in the world's history, but the whole course of it, only that towards the end everything realizes itself in a more perfect manner.
Wherever the world is found overflowing the church, from that of which John himself saw the commencement, to the last in ch. xx. 7-9, of which we have now the beginning before our eyes, there the substance of the prophecy always verifies itself anew, there the obligation still remains to those who are affected by the evil, to take it as the ground of consolation and warning to their hearts.
John seems to identify the city with Jerusalem, which of course is a name that is applied to the church in Heb. 12:22-23, but in the same manner that he does with the temple, there is some ambiguity involved, as Jesus "suffered without the gate."
Hengstenberg refers to the "world overflowing the church," which exactly describes the state of things today, IMO.
Doug
When we consider the comments of Hengstenberg previously cited, about the "world overflowing the church," together with the comments by Charles D. Alexander, which I posted previously, who said the reviving of the two witnesses "has an obvious connection with the prophecy of Ezekiel 37," one of the lessons taught in Revelation 11 is seen to be parallel to, and conform to, events described in chapter 12, where as a result of a great spiritual war, the saints are said to overcome the dragon, who is cast out of heaven.
Revelation 12:10-11
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
In Ezekiel 27:10, the valley of bones that begin to connect one to another forms a great army. "So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army."
They are given God's spirit; and put in their own land.
Ezekiel 37:14
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
The land referred to here, I suggest, is not the land of Canaan, but what the land of Canaan represents; the invisible things promised to the saints. See Jesus and the land promise (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/JLP/JLP.php). Understanding prophecy is one of those things, as Daniel was informed, at the end time:
Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
This is a great promise for the "wise." But prophecy is not meant to be understood by the wicked, and it exposes the deceptions that have overcome the church, that IMO, include preterism, and dispensationalism!
I think Hengstenberg has the right approach to understanding the numbers given in Daniel and Revelation. The "time, times and a half" and its various alternate expressions are a "signature" of the age of the church, the completion of the prophetic "week" when Christ confirms his covenant with his church.
Doug
Quote from: Cardinal on July 20, 2010, 01:17:20 AM
:cloud9: But again, God's day is a thousand years, so only 2 days have "passed", which would be "shortly". The things have come to pass, are coming to pass, and will come to pass until He be all in all. My :2c: Blessings...
Card, that sounds fine at first . .but the issue I have with it was in Daniel, it was clear that the events Daniel saw were not to happen in his day and he was told as much. And he was also told to seal what he saw. The first thing you see in Revelation are the seven seals . . .Daniel was told to seal it, John saw the seals being opened by Christ in the spirit, Jesus opened them in the flesh when we referred to Daniel's prophecy in Matthew 24.
Which tells me that because only 600 years or so had passed from when Daniel recorded what he saw to when Jesus revisited it. 600 years . .that's less than a day, and yet the records were to be sealed. Yet when John saw the same things, he was told specifically "not" to seal them.
So if Daniel was told to seal them and it was only for 600 years, how could John be told to leave them open if it wasn't going to unfold for another 2000?
I got into trouble earlier this week when I inadvertantly got tangled up with seeing things literally and seeing things spiritually without realizing there is a defining line between the two perspectives. It feels like many try to do the same things in Revelation by reapplying the natural part of it a second time. There is no indication, by the way, that these things are reapplied from "age to age".
They were already fulfilled long before we came along. It culminated 40 years after the cross due to the fact that "that's" what the religious leaders called upon themselves when they were given the chance to let their sin be taken from them by the blood of Christ.
Matt. 27
24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!" 25All the people answered,
"Let his blood be on us and on our children!" 26Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.
That's why it was 40 years, they called the curse of sin to come upon themselves and odly enough, they cursed their kids as well. A generation is considered to be 40 years. And so at the end of that generation, what they iniated at the crucifixion, became fulfilled. The judgment that was upon them, that could have passed from them and released at the cross, instead was brought to an accountability to the entire nation as the whole nation of Israel's identity was deeply rooted in the very law that no longer had effect.
As the temple worship went, so went the nation.
Quote from: Nathan on August 06, 2010, 06:35:09 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on July 20, 2010, 01:17:20 AM
:cloud9: But again, God's day is a thousand years, so only 2 days have "passed", which would be "shortly". The things have come to pass, are coming to pass, and will come to pass until He be all in all. My :2c: Blessings...
Card, that sounds fine at first . .but the issue I have with it was in Daniel, it was clear that the events Daniel saw were not to happen in his day and he was told as much. And he was also told to seal what he saw. The first thing you see in Revelation are the seven seals . . .Daniel was told to seal it, John saw the seals being opened by Christ in the spirit, Jesus opened them in the flesh when we referred to Daniel's prophecy in Matthew 24.
Which tells me that because only 600 years or so had passed from when Daniel recorded what he saw to when Jesus revisited it. 600 years . .that's less than a day, and yet the records were to be sealed. Yet when John saw the same things, he was told specifically "not" to seal them.
So if Daniel was told to seal them and it was only for 600 years, how could John be told to leave them open if it wasn't going to unfold for another 2000?
Well, for me, it's because, John said he was IN THE TEMPLE, IN THE SPIRIT on the LORD'S DAY = the 7th day. Do you realize that in the Lord's day THEY are ALL in Christ, IN US, just as it said in places in OT that someone's "seed" was in their LOINS.
He wasn't talking about just a natural concept in that, either. Our loins are the reproductive part of us, the mind/womb, which now in ever increasing fullness, is the mind of Christ, which is Spirit, and our 7th day SEED. This is why when He comes, He comes with 10,000's of His saints, and why the priests CONSUME the shewbread, which is as the 12 tribes natures and experiences being birthed in us through Christ.
Ever "feel" and identify with a character in there so much, you "feel" like you know them? Through Christ, we do; we are permitted to eat of the Christ nature that was attained by them, which is what the unleavened shewbread represented. The "angel" talking to John, I believe was Daniel. He said he was of John's fellow servants, the prophets.
And because Christ has been progressively revealed from generation to generation, His "appearing" in measure has been going on continuously. Yes, what Daniel saw, some of it happened in his day, but the spiritual aspects of what it means to each generation has been happening continually, each man in his order and according to the measure alloted by the Lord, throughout time.So in this way, the literal in no way prevents the spiritual from continually being revealed.
I got into trouble earlier this week when I inadvertantly got tangled up with seeing things literally and seeing things spiritually without realizing there is a defining line between the two perspectives. It feels like many try to do the same things in Revelation by reapplying the natural part of it a second time. There is no indication, by the way, that these things are reapplied from "age to age".
They were already fulfilled long before we came along. It culminated 40 years after the cross due to the fact that "that's" what the religious leaders called upon themselves when they were given the chance to let their sin be taken from them by the blood of Christ.
Matt. 27
24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!" 25All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!" 26Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.
That's why it was 40 years, they called the curse of sin to come upon themselves and odly enough, they cursed their kids as well. A generation is considered to be 40 years. And so at the end of that generation, what they iniated at the crucifixion, became fulfilled. The judgment that was upon them, that could have passed from them and released at the cross, instead was brought to an accountability to the entire nation as the whole nation of Israel's identity was deeply rooted in the very law that no longer had effect.
Don't "worry" about getting in trouble for spiritualizing. That is making the Word PERSONAL to US, so the letter can be fulfilled in us, just as it was in Jesus. If He hadn't known that Word was personal and was led of the Spirit to fulfill it spiritually within FIRST, He could not have walked it out in the natural in faith KNOWING it was written to Him and about Him.
Without faith it is impossible to please Him (Father) and the Lord's faith was in believing that what was written, was to Him and about Him, and that His Father would respond accordingly. He was made a son by the things that He sufferd has nothing to do with the external cross. If He had not already been made a son by then, He would have never resurrected.
I can write more on this to explain it, but the law STILL runs side by side with grace, so the generational curses are still in effect, and not just for those of natural Israel. Israel was made to be one with the Head in their day, and the rest of mankind was the body, just as the spiritual priesthood has been made to be one with the Head since day 5, and the rest of mankind (including the Jews) are the body/outer court realm today.
As the temple worship went, so went the nation.
Cardinal states
Yes, what Daniel saw, some of it happened in his day, but the spiritual aspects of what it means to each generation has been happening continually, each man in his order and according to the measure alloted by the Lord, throughout time.So in this way, the literal in no way prevents the spiritual from continually being revealed
Perhaps we're just misunderstanding each other here because I totally beleive "spiritually" these things are unfolding. I believe Christ has been, is now and continually will be going to manifest in flesh, but for me, the flesh is not the same flesh he was in as an individual 2,000 years ago, but it's going to be in the generation of people living in this realm that he manifests through. It's going to be the flesh that the spirit has been poured out upon. a corporate body in the flesh manifesting the resurrectio of Christ in the spirit.
:cloud9: Well, evidently we are, because I agree with what you just said..... :thumbsup:
In Revelation 11, the beast makes war with the two witnesses.
Revelation 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
In Revelation 12, the angels of Michael war against the dragon.
Revelation 12:7-8
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
These scriptures, I think, must refer to the same spiritual warfare. Here, the war is about a "place" where the dragon and his angels have no right to be, so, like most wars, it is a war about "turf," or possession of a "land," which in this case, is heaven, the location of the temple of God in Revelation 11:19, and the heavenly woman of Revelation 12:1, who represents the church.
When the dragon is cast out to the earth, the saints are said to be victorious.
In this prophecy, heaven is symbolic, and represents the status of believers, who in Ephesians 2:6 "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," and the earth and sea are symbolic of worldly society. Stars that are drawn by the dragon's tail and cast to the earth are believers, who are deceived, and who fall, and so return to the world.
Just as the ancient Israelites were promised a land, those who are in Christ have a promised land too. Paul said the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness occurred for our examples.
1 Corinthians 10:11-12
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
In Revelation 12, the woman flees to the wilderness, in verse 6, and again in verse 14. In verse 6, it is for a period of 1,260 days, the same time period mentioned in Revelation 11:3, which is the time span assigned for the ministry of the two witnesses.
In verse 14, her sojourn in the wilderness is for "a time, times, and a half" which is the period mentioned in Daniel 7:25, when the saints are dominated by a "little horn" who has "eyes like the eyes of a man" and "a mouth speaking great things." I suggest the "eyes like the eyes of a man" represent a human viewpoint, which contrasts with a divine perspective.
The divine perspective is represented by the wings of an eagle, that are given to the woman. An eagle soars at a great height, and views the earth from above, so the eagle's wings represent the divine perspective, that is provided by a right interpretation of prophecy. Thus, in her second flight to the wilderness, the woman is equipped with a divine perspective, one which is not evident in her first flight to the wilderness in Revelation 12:6.
The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are killed, and are revived again, which suggests that the right approach to understanding prophecy has already existed in the past, but was suppressed, and abandoned. And this may be well illustrated by the explanation that Hengstenberg (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8371.msg101512#msg101512) provided for the time periods mentioned in Revelation 11 and 12, and by the work of other men who employed a spiritual approach to prophecy, applying many of the prophecies that refer to Israel and Jerusalem to the church, rather than ethnic Jews. That was the approach employed by the apostles, in the NT. But in contrast, the basic approach of dispensationalism is to deny that the church fills the role of Israel, and preterism is similar; their view seems to elevate the writings of Josephus, an unbeliever, almost to scriptural status!
Paul in Galatians 4 identifies the unbelieving Jews with Hagar and Ishmael rather than with Isaac. He says:
Galatians 4:28-31
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
So, is the modern Jewish state the subject of prophecy? Perhaps it is, as in Revelation 13, one of the heads of the beast had received a deadly wound, that was healed. Perhaps the Jewish state is one of those heads, the one that received the deadly wound in 70 AD, and it revives the Roman province of Judea.
Revelation 13:1-5
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
The "beast" described in Revelation 13:1-5 incorporates each one of the animals described in Daniel's vision of Daniel 7, and the total number of heads and horns are the same in both prophecies. The 42 months in Revelation 13:5 corresponds to the "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25, and to the time that Gentiles trample the holy city, in Revelation 11:2, which refers to the church being under the domination of worldly men, and "a human point of view."
The "blasphemies" of the beast, which includes the political, economic, military and intellectual heritage of the ancient Babylonian, Persian, Hellenistic, and Roman civilizations, likely include such names as "Holy Roman Empire," "The Third Reich," and "Israel." The world views the modern Jewish state as "Israel," but John said the dragon "deceiveth the whole world."
Doug
One of the most obvious features to be seen in chapters 11, 12, & 13 of Revelation is the prominence given to the time periods, and their associated numbers, 1,260 days, and 42 months, and the "time, times, and a half;" all pointing to the same period of one half of a prophetic week, and corresponding to the similar symbolic 1,290 days and 1,335 days of Daniel 12, and the "time, times, and a half" mentioned in Daniel 7:25, and in Daniel 12:7. I suggest it is the last half-week of the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27, when Christ continues to confirm his covenant with his church.
In Revelation chapter 12, these numbers are applied to the period for which the woman is in the wilderness, which alludes to the account of the sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness, led by Moses, before they entered the promised land under Joshua.
A prominent feature in chapter 12 is the presence of two separate descriptions of the woman's flight to the wilderness, the first one occurring before the description of the war in heaven, and the second occurring after. In both of these flights to the wilderness, the woman is fed. In her second flight to the wilderness she is equipped with eagle's wings. In both flights to the wilderness, the time specified is similar, and corresponds to the symbolic "time, times, and a half," and its equivalent of 1,260 days, and to the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses. The wilderness depicts the sojourn of Christians in this present life; see 1 Corinthians 10:1-12.
The character of the woman's two flights to the wilderness may be contrasted.
The 1st flight to the wilderness
In her first flight to the wilderness, there is a famine, of "hearing the word of the Lord." [Amos 8:11-13]
In her first flight to the wilderness, there is no rain of the word of God, but a famine. The 1,260 days correspond to the three and a half years of no rain in the days of Elijah.
The two witnesses have power to "shut heaven." [Revelation 11:6] The "rain" is symbolic of God's word.
In her first flight to the wilderness, the holy city is trampled by Gentiles. [Revelation 11:2]
People view the prophecies through the spectacles of men who they view as spiritual "giants," and see themselves as "grasshoppers" in comparison to them. They quote from commentaries, and follow the traditions of men that are embraced by particular denominations or sects, that effectively kill the two witnesses, the word, and the Spirit.
In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are overcome by the little horn, the Antichrist spirit. [Daniel 7:21, 25]
In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are scattered. [Daniel 12:7] This has been fulfilled, and is shown by the tens of thousands of denominations.
In her first flight to the wilderness, the church becomes desolate, like a valley of dry bones. [Ezekiel 37:1-2]
In her first flight to the wilderness, the church is plundered by the armies of Gog and Magog. [Ezekiel 38:10-13]
In Zechariah's prophecy, in Zechariah 14:1-3, many of the saints are taken into captivity, houses rifled, and women ravished. It is a spiritual seduction, such as Paul alludes to in 2 Corinthians 11:1-3.
In her first flight to the wilderness, the world rejoices over the desolation of the church, and the death of the two witnesses. [Revelation 11:10]
The 2nd flight to the wilderness
In her second flight to the wilderness, the saints have renewed strength. The woman has been given eagle's wings. [Revelation 12:14] The prophecies may be viewed in a new way-from above, as pictured by eagle's wings, whereas in the first flight to the wilderness, her point of view was earth-bound, having "eyes like the eyes of a man."
Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Isaiah said the saints will renew their strength, and "shall mount up with wings as eagles." [Isaiah 40:31] David said God "satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's." [Psalm 103:5]
In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, Satan, the accuser of the brethren, has been cast out. [Revelation 12:9]
In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the wilderness itself is changed. Isaiah said, the wilderness will be glad; the desert will "blossom as the rose;" [Isaiah 35:1] streams will flow in the desert; [Isaiah 35:6] the mountains and hills bring forth fruit; [Ezekiel 36:11] hills will rejoice. [Psalm 65:11-13] God will make bright clouds, and showers of rain. [Zechariah 10:1]
In her second flight to the wilderness, the woman has some help; the flood from the serpent's mouth gets swallowed up by the earth. [Revelation 12:16] The deceptions are exposed.
In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the two witnesses come to life, and stand on their feet. [Revelation 11:11]
Daniel said the beast is slain, and his body given to the burning flame. [Daniel 7:11]
Fire falls on those who "know not God."
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the war between the angels has been fought. The saints are victorious. [Revelation 12:11-12]
In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the ark of the covenant is seen in the temple. [Revelation 11:19] This may be understood as the fulfillment of the new covenant, that says God will write his laws on our hearts, and remembers our sins no more. [Hebrews 10:16-17]
Doug
:cloud9: Very interesting perspective..... :thumbsup:
Thanks for posting the "Small Uncomplete Summary" - the two witnesses is something in the book of revelation that I've never understood, and I liked reading the summary, especially the line "old testament witness" and "new testament witness" also, "candlesticks and olive trees"
also interesting i noticed in this thread is the 'two' women of rev 12... one is Israel, she gives birth to the man child (Son of man) and the dragon (in the person of Herod) makes to devour the man child (Son of man) but He is caught up to God and His Throne(Heb 3)... the dragon is enraged and hotly pursues the woman (70 A.D.) (the mantle of Truth is now worn by the Christians, i.e. the '2nd' woman) and there is a first migration (mainly to Europe). There's war in heaven (asserted/half the battle has been won) and the dragon no longer is allowed access to the heaven's and rages against the woman again but she is given the two wings of an eagle that she may fly/sail to a second place (second migration) and she is protected from the FaCe of the dragon for three (modern) times and a half. [add 350 years to 1620 and come to a time when a previously hidden phenomenon burst forth and changed society/ eventually the world, rev 17:9, seven continents/hills] - i.e. The serpent (guise of the dragon) released a flood (and proliferation) after the woman seeking to wash her away from the face of the earth.. But alas! the earth comes to the aid of the woman and swallows the flood (c.r. - Luke 23:31).
The "the dragon" turns his attention back to the 1st woman (who by now) has the testimony of Jesus and the commandments of God.. (c.r.- "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you will not see me again until you say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD"...
There are not two women in Revelation 12, only one. But there are two witnesses in chapter 11, as according to the law of Moses, a single witness is invalid for convicting a person of some transgression; there must be two.
One of the key questions about the prophecy of Revelation 12 concerns the significance of the wilderness. Paul showed that there is a connection between the experience of the church and the sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness after they came out of Egypt, and all the hard lessons they learned, which were for our examples. [1 Cor. 10:6, 11]
The 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5 has been associated with the 42 different camps of Israel on their way to the promised land, listed in Numbers 33. They "pitched in Succoth;" ... "pitched in Etham;" ... "pitched before Migdol;" ... "pitched in Marah;" ... "came unto Elim ... and they pitched there;" ... "encamped by the Red sea;" ... "encamped in the wilderness of Sin;" ... "encamped in Dophkah;" ... "encamped in Alush;" ... "encamped at Rephidim;" ... "pitched in the wilderness of Sinai;" ... "pitched at Kibrothhattaavah;" ... "encamped at Hazeroth;" ... "pitched in Rithmah;" ... "pitched at Rimmonparez;" ... "pitched in Libnah;" ... "pitched at Rissah;" ... "pitched in Kehelathah;" ... "pitched in mount Shapher;" ... "encamped in Haradah;" ... "pitched in Makheloth;" ... "encamped at Tahath;" ... "pitched at Tarah;" ... "pitched in Mithcah;" ... "pitched in Hashmonah;" ... "encamped at Moseroth;" ... "pitched in Benejaakan;" ... "encamped at Horhagidgad;" ... "pitched in Jotbathah;" ... "encamped at Ebronah;" ... "encamped at Eziongaber;" ... "pitched in the wilderness of Zin, which is Kadesh;" ... "pitched in mount Hor;" ... "pitched in Zalmonah;" ... "pitched in Punon;" ... "pitched in Oboth;" ... "pitched in Ijeabarim, in the border of Moab;" ... "pitched in Dibongad;" ... "encamped in Almondiblathaim;" ... "pitched in the mountains of Abarim, before Nebo;" ... "pitched in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho;" ... "pitched by Jordan, from Bethjesimoth even unto Abelcraptim in the plains of Moab."
These 42 different camp sites help to show what the wilderness represents in Revelation 12:6 and 14. Like the Israelites who moved from place to place, the church also has not attained her permanent spiritual "land," but is still being taught, and led, often in a roundabout way, to her final destination, the promised "rest," and the eternal inheritance of the saints.
Examples of this occur when individual Christians abandon formerly held interpretations, and systems of interpretation, for a different view, or leave the denomination they were brought up in, and become aligned with another. The wilderness for us is the unsettled state, of seeking our promised land, not having attained it already.
The two different flights of the woman to the wilderness may be explained as representing two different viewpoints, or methods of interpretation; one being the earth-bound view, which the woman is limited to, when she lacks the two wings of an eagle, that are given to her in her second flight to the wilderness. The wings of eagles represent an understanding of prophecy, as when an eagle soars high in the air, it views the earth from above, picturing the divine viewpoint, which contrasts with the human viewpoint, represented by the little horn, which dominates the saints in the vision of Daniel 7.
Doug
The name of the last place where the Israelites camped, before entering the promised land, and crossing over Jordan, was not "Abelcraptim," as it says in my previous post, which I tried to correct. However, its real name is apparently unacceptable for posting here.
The significance of that particular camp site was that it represented a sad event, that very possibly is significant for Christians today. It was where the Israelites "began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab." [Numbers 25:1]
Paul makes reference to it:
1 Corinthians 10:8
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
This event appears to be significant for the church, as in the prophecy of Joel, that valley, the name of which is apparently unacceptable on this board, is specifically mentioned in a prophecy of Joel, as benefiting from the waters that flow from the fountain in the house of the Lord. [Joel 3:18]
This is most remarkable, because a river flowing from the temple to that valley, located east of the Jordan Rift Valley, and north of the Dead Sea, would be contrary to nature, and to the existing topography.
The waters from the temple, which are described in greater detail in the prophecy of Ezekiel 47, heal most areas where they flow, and when they empty into the Dead Sea, its waters are healed, apparently changing it to fresh water. But I suggest, this is a metaphor, representing the effects of the Spirit, and the gospel, that flows from the church to the world, and their healing effect.
In the prophecy of Joel 3:18, about the valley which gets watered by the fountain in the house of the Lord, it seems to me that the significance for the church could be that it is really about a cure for spiritual whoredom. In Revelation 14, the saints are described as being "virgins" who are "not defiled with women."
Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
This also refers to spiritual fidelity. As Paul explains it, not being "defiled with women" means not teaching false doctrines.
2 Corinthians 11:2-3
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Doug
Joe 3:18 And it hath come to pass, in that day, Drop down do the mountains juice, And the hills do flow with milk, And all streams of Judah do go with water, And a fountain from the house of Jehovah goeth forth, And hath watered the valley of Shittim.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2010, 05:10:47 PM
Joe 3:18 And it hath come to pass, in that day, Drop down do the mountains juice, And the hills do flow with milk, And all streams of Judah do go with water, And a fountain from the house of Jehovah goeth forth, And hath watered the valley of Shittim.
I guess I could write the place named in Numbers 33:49 as "Abelsh
ittim."
In the NIV, Joel 3:18 is translated (or interpreted) as:
In that day the mountains will drip new wine, and the hills will flow with milk; all the ravines of Judah will run with water. A fountain will flow out of the Lord's house and will water the valley of acacias.The translators must have had a hard time with the idea of a river from the temple in Jerusalem crossing the Dead Sea to get to the eastern side of Jordan.
Doug
As an example of the human point of view, pictured by the "eyes like the eyes of a man" in the little horn of Daniel 7, that dominates the saints for "a time, times, and a half," that characterizes the woman's first flight to the wilderness in chapter 12, consider some of the opinions that have been offered on the significance of the temple mentioned in Revelation 11:1-2.
John was given a reed like a rod, and he was told to measure it. Some have claimed this proves that the book of Revelation must have been written when the temple at Jerusalem was still standing, or else, no one reading his prophecy would have been able to make any sense of the angel asking John to measure the temple. But that is obviously a flawed argument, as the measuring of the temple has a precedent in the prophecy of Ezekiel 41, which referred to a visionary temple. There was no literal temple standing in Jerusalem when Ezekiel wrote his prophecy, and he wrote a whole chapter describing the dimensions of its various parts, so why would John have needed a temple of stones and wood, made with human hands, to report on its measurements?
And, what would be the purpose of measuring Herod's temple, if it was soon to be destroyed? And why would John have been the one who was asked to measure it, when he was confined to Island of Patmos, far from Jerusalem, and an exile? If God had really wanted someone to record the dimensions of Herod's temple, surely he could have chosen a person who had access to it! And to clinch the matter, no actual dimensions are given in John's prophecy.
The temple John was about to measure was one made without hands, the church, which is the true temple, of which the ones in Jerusalem were a type, or shadow. In Revelation 11:19, the temple is said to be in heaven, and the ark of the covenant is seen in it. I suggest this represents the promise of the New Covenant, that says God will write his laws on our hearts, and remember our sins no more.
Another view of the temple in Revelation 11:1-2, that likewise represents a human point of view, is that the temple mentioned there is one that is yet to be built. Many dispensationalists look for a future temple to be built in Jerusalem, that will be occupied by an individual human Antichrist for three and a half years, while two human prophets clothed in sackcloth wander around Jerusalem, and fulfill the role of the two witnesses, killing their enemies with fire from heaven, and bringing terrible plagues upon the earth.
This of course is very silly. Such interpretations, IMO, contribute to the slaying of the two witnesses, the scriptures and the Spirit. The temple in Revelation 11 is a metaphor, representing the church, just as the woman in heaven in Revelation 12:1 also represents the church of all ages, and the Israel of God. Similarly the temple in Revelation 3:12 is a metaphor, and represents the church:
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Isaiah had said Mount Zion and Jerusalem would be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, and in the New Testament, Mount Zion and Jerusalem are raised up to heaven, which fulfills Isaiah's prophecy.
Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Doug
The wilderness in Revelation 12:6 and 12:14, where the woman flees, and where she is nourished, is a metaphor, not a literal desert.
Its meaning is related to the wilderness where the Israelites wandered for 40 years, after the Exodus, en route to the promised land. And thus, the promised land of the OT also has a meaning for Christians, as a type of the "rest" and the eternal inheritance of the saints.
The promised land for the saints is not the literal land of Canaan, but that land represented their eternal inheritance, in a type or "shadow." It represents things that are invisible. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for." Faith is invisible.
The land promise and the territory where the Israelites dwelt for several centuries was the region where many revelations from God were given to the prophets, and even when the prophets were in exile, as Ezekiel was, they often wrote about the land, and changes that would occur there, and about the land promise, and the restoration to the land. So the land promise is a prominent theme throughout the Old Testament. Daniel's prayer in chapter 9 was about Jerusalem.
OT scholar Walter Brueggermann wrote:
Israel is embodied in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the earliest presentations as sojourners on the way to a land whose name it does not know. It is en route in response to the call of a God who tells it very little about himself and asks of Israel a blind trust. ...
During the period when Israel had left the slavery of Egypt and was not yet in the land of promise (forty years' worth!) it remembered itself as wanderer. ...
Israel's third memory of landlessness is the exile. Although the northern tribes were exiled to Assyria in the eighth century, it is the sixth century Jews in Babylon that provide the central image of exile for the Bible.
[Walter Brueggemann, The Land: Place as Gifts, Promise, and Challenge in Biblical Faith. Fortress Press, 1977, 2002. p. 5-7]
Similar facts about Israel's past are also mentioned in the NT. And the creation story of Genesis, man being expelled from the Garden of Eden parallels the story of Israel's loss of their promised land.
Brueggemann wrote:
Land is a defining theme in Old Testament tradition. The Old Testament is preoccupied with the concrete particularity of land, thereby assuring that Israel's faith is in touch with the public, material, sociopolitical-economic aspects of living in the world. For that reason, one cannot consider the faith of the Old Testament or the God of the Old Testament without at the same time being concerned with socioeconomic analysis, for land is not just a "good idea," but actual real estate that evokes and hosts profound hope, imaginative social policy deep moral conflict, savage acts of violence, and acute communal disappointment.... The story of the early part of the Bible thus is the movement from land anticipation to land governance and finally to land loss, culminating in the deportation and displacement from the land, signalled as "exile." Remarkably in this tradition preoccupied with land, the exile is the defining signature event of ancient Israel. The exile, moreover, became the matrix in which the ancient promises of land were reiterated afresh. Thus the great prophetic traditions of Isaiah 40--55, Jeremiah 30-31, and Ezekiel 33-48 all assure exilic Israel that God will once again give land to Israel as it was first given to the heirs of the ancestors (see Isa. 49:19-20; 51:2-3; Jer. 31:12-14, 38-40; Ezek. 37:13-14; 47:13-14). With these utterances the gift of land is again in prospect. Again YHWH guarantees, and again Israel is to trust the promise and receive the gift.
[Reverberations of faith: a theological handbook of Old Testament themes, by Walter Brueggemann. (Westminster John Knox Press, 2002) p. 120-123]
For Christians, as several Christian scholars have pointed out, the promise of the land has become a spiritual promise. W.D. Davies said, in a statement often quoted, "In sum, for the holiness of place, Christianity has fundamentally, though not consistently, substituted the holiness of the Person: it has Christified holy space."
[The Gospel and the Land: Early Christianity and Jewish Territorial Doctrine, by W. D. Davies. (U. of California Press 1974) p. 368.]
One striking example pointed out by Davies was when Jesus said to Nathanael,
John 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Jesus put himself in place of Bethel, where Jacob dreamed of "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it." [Genesis 28:12] In the dream, God promised to give the land he was in to Jacob, and here, part of the real significance of the land was revealed; it would be a place where revelations of God would be given to man.
The wilderness of Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 is seen to be a metaphor representing the territory where Christians dwell, and where they are nourished, during their quest for their spiritual promised land, their permanent inheritance. This is discussed further in my article, The woman in the wilderness. (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/dload/ww.pdf)
Doug
The "land" promise has expanded in revelation. It encompasses the entire cosmos. "For not through law is the promise to Abraham, or to his Seed, for him to be enjoyer of the allotment of the world, but through faith's righteousness." (Rm 413, CLT)
Quote from: reFORMer on August 13, 2010, 06:24:42 PM
The "land" promise has expanded in revelation. It encompasses the entire cosmos. "For not through law is the promise to Abraham, or to his Seed, for him to be enjoyer of the allotment of the world, but through faith's righteousness." (Rm 413, CLT)
Like the law, which had in it a "shadow of good things to come," [Hebrews 10:1] the land promise also is a type, and a sample of greater things than dwelling in the rather small territory in the Middle East with the boundaries of the land possessed by ancient Israel.
IMO there has been a tendency for many Christian scholars to overlook the significance of the land promise for the church, and it is discussed in my article Has the land promise been set aside? (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/JLP/LPNT.html)
Similarly, many scholars seem to have missed the significance of the woman fleeing to the
wilderness in Revelation 12, where there are two accounts of it.
Brueggemann discerned two contrasting histories of Israel in the wilderness, in the account of Numbers 14. He contrasted the general attitude of the people with that of Joshua and Caleb, the only ones of those who came out of Egypt who obtained an inheritance in the promised land. He wrote:
Numbers 14; The Two Histories in the Wilderness
Having rejected safe slavery, Israel found its immediate destiny to be landlessness. But even in wilderness it discovered that one may be a participant in one of two histories, surely a continuation of the two histories we have discerned in Genesis. Numbers 14 presents in rapid succession a series of images about facing the competing claims of the two histories. One is driven by a sense of banishment, characterized by mistrust, expressed as quarrelsomeness, and devoted to return to Egypt. The other is the history of hope, trusting in Yahweh's promises, enduring in the face of want and need, sure that history was on its way to the new and good land. Israel discerned what rootless people must each time learn over again, that in such landlessness there may be unexpected sustaining resources. Or one may discern there only darkness and abandonment. In the events of wilderness Israel wrestled like Jacob for its being and for its faith.
The first expression in this chapter of the two histories is in vv. 1-10. The issues are clearly stated. The history of banishment is articulated in vv. 1-4, characterized by loud cries, weeping, and murmuring. Landlessness leads to bitter accusation, here expressed as two explanations of indignation, two rhetorical questions, and a concluding appeal:
exclamations:
(a) Would that we had died in the land of Egypt!
(b) Or would that we had died in this wilderness!
questions:
(a) Why does Yahweh bring us into this land to fall by the sword?
(b) Would it not be better for us to go back to Egypt?
appeal:
Let us choose a captain and go back to Egypt.
...
The counter-theme of this protest is represented by Moses and Aaron, but more dramatically by Joshua and Caleb. The old history led to complaint.
The new history leads to repentance: they "rent their clothes." The speakers for the new history do not mention Egypt or return because they are singularly oriented to the land yet promised. They speak not of hardships but only of the richness of what is promised: "The land, which we passed through to spy it out, is an exceedingly good land" (v. 7) The others had spoken only of wilderness and Egypt as though these were the only options. They framed the land-less around the limited options of death and slavery. But Joshua and Caleb speak of yet another option; the land still in the future, the land good, exceedingly. Superlatives fail. The land is still conditional: "if" (v. 8). But the promise for which they left Egypt is still compelling: "a land flowing with milk and honey" (Exod 3:8). What led them here in the first place is still the main reason.[The land: place as gift, promise, and challenge in biblical faith, by Walter Brueggemann. (Fortress Press, 2002) p. 33-34]
This may have a parallel with the two flights of the woman to the wilderness in Revelation 12, which present two contrasting histories; in one case, the woman possesses the two wings of an eagle, and in the other case, she does not, and so is dominated by and limited to "a human viewpoint."
Doug
You clearly love chapter 12 Doug :happygrin: . I have a different view to yours though, since you love this chapter so much maybe you should not read my view and instead let the lord figure it out for yourself. Because I remember figuring out chapter 12 it was great fun. So if I post my view here, which I probably will knowing me :laughing7: maybe you should ignore it.
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 02:49:28 AM
You clearly love chapter 12 Doug :happygrin: . I have a different view to yours though, since you love this chapter so much maybe you should not read my view and instead let the lord figure it out for yourself. Because I remember figuring out chapter 12 it was great fun. So if I post my view here, which I probably will knowing me :laughing7: maybe you should ignore it.
I hope you don't tell us there is a gap in the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel. That would be a real whopper, as time has no gaps! IMO, it is a clear example of "a mouth speaking great things." [Dan. 7:8]
Doug
Quote from: Doug on August 14, 2010, 03:22:34 AM
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 02:49:28 AM
You clearly love chapter 12 Doug :happygrin: . I have a different view to yours though, since you love this chapter so much maybe you should not read my view and instead let the lord figure it out for yourself. Because I remember figuring out chapter 12 it was great fun. So if I post my view here, which I probably will knowing me :laughing7: maybe you should ignore it.
I hope you don't tell us there is a gap in the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel. That would be a real whopper, as time has no gaps! IMO, it is a clear example of "a mouth speaking great things." [Dan. 7:8]
Doug
I like your style Doug you have a spirit of grace/peace about you.
concerning rev12 I haven't gone into detail like you have, but the lord showed me some basic but powerful stuff, which satisfied my hungry belly for that chapter.
The wilderness of Revelation 12:6 and 12:14, where the woman flees, and where she is nourished for 1,260 days, and for "a time, times, and a half", is a metaphorical one. It represents the sojourn of Christians living in this present world, who seek to enter the heavenly kingdom.
Below are several reasons why the life of a Christian is described as a wilderness experience. On both occasions when she flees to the wilderness, the woman is fed. Consider the spiritual nourishment that the woman receives.
The ancient Israelites ate manna, but Jesus claimed to be the true "bread from heaven." The manna that the Israelites ate in the wilderness was a type of Jesus, who gives his "flesh" as the spiritual nourishment to believers.
John 6:35, 49-51, 56
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
...
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
...
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
So, just as Christ is the true manna, the "bread which cometh down from heaven," those who are nourished with the spiritual food he gives are described as escaping to a figurative wilderness, where Christ is the leader, instead of Moses.
Another way in which Christians are in a "wilderness" experience is that they are "separate" from unbelievers, and from idolatrous forms of worship, and from the world. Paul said to the Corinthians,
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
When the woman "flees," and escapes to the wilderness, what does she flee from? It must be from a threat of some kind, and from sin. Paul said:
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
By fleeing to the wilderness, the woman "departs from iniquity." It is for her survival, so she may avoid the judgment that is to come upon the world. When the dragon is cast out, and the saints overcome his deception, he persecutes the woman. [Revelation 12:13]
In the wilderness, the woman seeks a heavenly country, and a heavenly kingdom. It is not of this present world.
Hebrews 13:14
For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
James said that friendship with the world implies enmity with God.
James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
The apostle John said, every one who hopes for the reward of life when Christ appears "purifies" himself.
1 John 3:3
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
In Revelation, the saints are warned to come out from the false religious system represented by Babylon.
Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
In the book of Proverbs, we read of the highway of the upright.
Proverbs 16:17
The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.
Several prophecies describe a "highway" in the wilderness. Isaiah said, "make straight in the desert a highway for our God." [Isaiah 40:3]
The path leading away from evil which Christians in the wilderness follow, is to become a highway. It is the way to the kingdom of God.
Doug
I'm NOT saying, "This is the true interpretation." That's the wrong way to think of Scripture anyway...it's so full of multifaceted glory and wisdom. But, when it comes into my mind, the following connects me to God's view of how the saints are slandered, including on the internet, but the earth opening its mouth counters it. Specifically, the internet, a thing of the earth that is throughout the earth, opens its mouth and helps the woman.
Revelation 1215-16; CLT...
15 And the serpent casts water as a river out of its mouth after the woman, that she should be carried away by its current.
16 And the earth helps the woman, and the earth opens its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon casts out of its mouth.
_________________________
I thought we had a thread on "Rev 12," maybe some title with the name "woman" in it. I remember writing on the topic earlier on in this incarnation of tentmaker. I just can't find it at the moment. Maybe it would be good for one of you to post some material and create one. This is a GREAT sign in heaven..."THE SUN-CLOTHED WOMAN." Who wrote a message with that title?
Quote from: reFORMer on August 15, 2010, 06:39:21 AM
I'm NOT saying, "This is the true interpretation." That's the wrong way to think of Scripture anyway...it's so full of multifaceted glory and wisdom. But, when it comes into my mind, the following connects me to God's view of how the saints are slandered, including on the internet, but the earth opening its mouth counters it. Specifically, the internet, a thing of the earth that is throughout the earth, opens its mouth and helps the woman.
Revelation 1215-16; CLT...
15 And the serpent casts water as a river out of its mouth after the woman, that she should be carried away by its current.
16 And the earth helps the woman, and the earth opens its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon casts out of its mouth.
The idea of the earth opening its mouth, parallels the wilderness experience of the Israelites, and connects those events with the experience of the church, represented by the woman in Revelation 12.
Some of the Levites, led by Korah, and others, led by Dathan and Abiram, gathered themselves together against Moses and Aaron, accusing Moses of wanting to make himself a prince over them, and they complained that they had not come to a land flowing with milk and honey, or received the inheritance they were promised, but faced death in the wilderness. [Numbers 16:13-14] Then God demonstrated by a great sign, that they had transgressed.
Numbers 16:28-33
28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.The story suggests to me that somehow, the earth opening its mouth and swallowing up the serpent's flood in Revelation 12:16 would likely involve a separation between those who follow Christ, and those who don't. It is kind of an
anti-rapture. :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: reFORMer on August 15, 2010, 06:39:21 AM
I thought we had a thread on "Rev 12," maybe some title with the name "woman" in it. I remember writing on the topic earlier on in this incarnation of tentmaker. I just can't find it at the moment. Maybe it would be good for one of you to post some material and create one. This is a GREAT sign in heaven..."THE SUN-CLOTHED WOMAN." Who wrote a message with that title?
Is this the one you were looking for? Re: Eagles and the spirit. (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=506.msg4263#msg4263)
Your comment in this post about eagles, "For their ability to remain at great heights and see great distances they represent the spiritual life and visionary prophetic" is quite similar to my view.
The eagles provide another connection between the wilderness in Revelation 12, and the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness after the Exodus from Egypt. The eagles' wings were a symbol of God's protection.
Exodus 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.It is seen again in Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 32:10-12
9 For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.
11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:
12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.The church has the role of
Israel and the events in the wilderness in the time of Moses happened for
our examples, Paul said. [1 Cor. 10:11]
Doug
Yes Doug, that http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=506.msg4263#msg4263 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=506.msg4263#msg4263) is the right link... Re: Eagles and the spirit. How did you find it? Here's the quote from it that covers briefly the Sun Clothed Woman...
In Rv 12 is one of the 2 "great" signs, seen in the heaven, a woman travailing and tormented to be bringing forth her child. I personally like this portion a great deal. I understand the description to be a parallel of many other threefold things in the word (like Jesus' 30, 60 and 100 fold [Mt13:8; Mk 4:8 and again in v.20]) which I will not here enumerate. Many of you are familiar with this. The moon corresponds to the outer court of the temple for instance. It is a people in the heaven but it's still dirt. It is solitary as Adam nature is an individual soul. Their way is still determined in relation to the earth. Their light is in the night. Their glory is still reflected: like the law reflects God, they reflect the sun-clothed woman who is a corporate entity. They are under the authority of the Woman, "at her feet." The woman's authority is worn on her brow. Though a wreath of victory, it is imparted, referential, made of stars that are signs. She knows on her ground appeared the twelve fathers of the tribes and apostles of the lamb. The authority of the male she births is intrinsic to him, his nature, his destiny. He, "...is about to be shepherding all the nations in an iron club."
_________________________________
About the OP, I most often tend to think of the two witnesses as any particular person who is in Christ and the Father Who is with them. This is based on Jesus' words...
"Yet in this law, also, of yours it is written that the testimony of two men is true. I am the One testifying concerning Myself, and the Father Who sends Me is testifying concerning Me." (John 817-18; Concordant Literal Translation)
Quote from: reFORMer on August 16, 2010, 04:04:28 AM
Yes Doug, that http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=506.msg4263#msg4263 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=506.msg4263#msg4263) is the right link... Re: Eagles and the spirit. How did you find it?
Since it was not found by a Search on the "Book of Revelation" discussion forum, I tried the same Search on the parent board.
Quote from: reFORMer on August 16, 2010, 04:04:28 AM
Here's the quote from it that covers briefly the Sun Clothed Woman...
In Rv 12 is one of the 2 "great" signs, seen in the heaven, a woman travailing and tormented to be bringing forth her child. I personally like this portion a great deal. I understand the description to be a parallel of many other threefold things in the word (like Jesus' 30, 60 and 100 fold [Mt13:8; Mk 4:8 and again in v.20]) which I will not here enumerate. Many of you are familiar with this. The moon corresponds to the outer court of the temple for instance.
Rev. 11:2 shows the holy city trampled by Gentiles, who occupy the outer court of the temple, which seems to contradict the idea that the moon under her feet corresponds to the outer court. The woman in ch. 12 corresponds to the temple proper; in ch. 11, the Gentiles are not "under her feet," but instead, she is trampled by them.
In Joseph's dream, interpreted in Genesis 37:10, Rachel is identified with the moon. And in Matthew 2:18, Rachel weeping for her children seems to represent the Jewish people.
Maybe that could help in understanding Revelation 12. Some commentators have suggested the moon represents the Mosaic system, which contains types and shadows of the gospel. [Hebrews 10:1]
Another prophecy that may be relevant is the one quoted in Acts 2:20. "Blood" can represent something unpalatable.
Quote from: reFORMer on August 16, 2010, 04:04:28 AM
About the OP, I most often tend to think of the two witnesses as any particular person who is in Christ and the Father Who is with them. This is based on Jesus' words...
"Yet in this law, also, of yours it is written that the testimony of two men is true. I am the One testifying concerning Myself, and the Father Who sends Me is testifying concerning Me." (John 817-18; Concordant Literal Translation)
Jesus is also called the Word. [John 1:1] The Spirit of the Father was in Jesus. And so Jesus, and the Spirit of the Father, are
two witnesses.
John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. It is the Spirit that guides us to the truth.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.Doug
Quote from: reFORMer on August 15, 2010, 06:39:21 AM
I'm NOT saying, "This is the true interpretation." That's the wrong way to think of Scripture anyway...it's so full of multifaceted glory and wisdom. But, when it comes into my mind, the following connects me to God's view of how the saints are slandered, including on the internet, but the earth opening its mouth counters it. Specifically, the internet, a thing of the earth that is throughout the earth, opens its mouth and helps the woman.
An interpretation of the earth swallowing up the flood from the serpent's mouth is the last item in my article: Melting the mountains (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/JLP/MM.html).
Doug
The woman's flight to the wilderness in Revelation 12, which is described in two verses, vs. 6 and vs. 14, was foretold by the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Isaiah describes it in terms of a second Exodus.
Isaiah 11:10-12
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
In vs. 10, Isaiah identifies the ensign as Christ. Zechariah 9:16 also refers to the saints as an ensign.
Those who have a part in this great exodus come to worship at Jerusalem.
Isaiah 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
Isaiah said Jerusalem and Zion would be raised up; [Isaiah 2:2] in the NT this prophecy is fulfilled, as is evident from Hebrews 12:22-23, where Jerusalem is referred to as the "heavenly" Jerusalem; "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem..."
According to Jeremiah, the second exodus will eclipse the first one.
Jeremiah 16:14-15
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Nowhere in the NT are Christians encouraged to go to the land of Canaan, so Jeremiah's reference to "the land that I gave unto their fathers" must refer to the eternal inheritance of the saints, under the figure of the promised land, which was called a "rest," [Psalm 95:11] but was only a type or shadow of the eternal "rest" promised to the saints. [Hebrews 4:8]
In the NT, Abraham is called the "father" of those who have faith in Christ. [Romans 4:16] Paul called him "the father of us all."
Jeremiah described the second exodus as something so great, the first one, when Jews came out of Egypt under Moses, will be seen as insignificant in comparison.
Jeremiah 23:7-8
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
What is the promised land of the saints? It is not Canaan, IMO (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/JLP/JLP.php), but what Canaan represents, the invisible things that the saints hope for.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on August 16, 2010, 02:04:47 PM
Rev. 11:2 shows the holy city trampled by Gentiles, who occupy the outer court of the temple, which seems to contradict the idea that the moon under her feet corresponds to the outer court. The woman in ch. 12 corresponds to the temple proper; in ch. 11, the Gentiles are not "under her feet," but instead, she is trampled by them.
There are three ranks in Song of Songs (6:8-9,) "There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number. My dove, my undefiled is
but one..." This describes those who are of the one body.
Those queens are who strive lawfully to win, to be Overcomers and bear legal inheritors in the image and exact likeness of God.
The concubines are who have intimacy with the king and even conceive by Him. Yet they are not in Covenant and do not go according to His word.
The virgins are in the house. They come and go and, are available to Him when there, but have as yet no transforming experience in relationship with Him. Because the world comes and goes with them in the outer court their ranks swell and diminish, as the phases of the moon. That, as well as God desiring to be merciful, counting perhaps even the rest of the world in His outer court, the apostle is told to not measure. In time of trouble they are liable to be trampled underfoot by the world who is counted among them, just as the moon is much pocked by being struck again and again by other bodies, wanderers in the heavenlies. Here is the carnal mind that is trampled under by the nations (or, gentiles,) the cultures into which we are born in Adam.
Two witnesses are represented by two trees, which John calls olive trees.
There were two trees in the garden of Eden, one of which was forbidden to Adam and Eve. Adam represents man, the "lord of the earth." After they ate its fruit, they realized they were naked, and so they were expelled from the garden, which is the spiritual home of man.
One of the trees in the garden was the tree of life, which represents the Spirit of God. Since the first couple were banished from the garden, and so were denied access to the tree of life, death was introduced.
The other tree represents the word of God, which to us, means the scriptures, but to Adam meant the instruction he received from God regarding the forbidden tree. From the scriptures, we obtain the knowledge about good, and about evil. "For by the law is the knowledge of sin." [Romans 3:20]
The garden of Eden was a place where man had access to the tree of life, but the first couple were exiled from it. Cherubims, and a flaming sword were put east of the garden of Eden to guard the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
"Fire" and a "sword" are metaphors also used for the scriptures. The word of God is represented by a sword, that goes forth out of the mouth of Christ.
Revelation 1:16
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
In the Old Testament, the promised land replaces the Garden of Eden, but on a national scale. A garden was suitable for two people to dwell in, but a much larger area would be needed for a nation. This is the promised land. It was where the two trees would continue to exist.
Revelation 11:4
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the Lord of the earth.
The two trees also have the role of lamps, or candlesticks, in the world, as they provide light, in the spiritual darkness.
The loss of man's first home in Eden, and the desire for a restored fellowship with God, are background ideas, that underlie Israel's land promises, and their taking possession of the land, and occupying it, and their removal from it, at the time of the exile. Who can fail to see the parallel between the Genesis story of man's exile from the paradise of Eden, and Israel's exile from the promised land?
The land promise, and its spiritual intent, as a symbol of a place where man has access to the tree of life, and the invisible things promised to the saints, is a theme evident throughout the Old Testament. Dispensationalists, who limit the promise to a literal territory, that is to be possessed by ethnic Jews, have missed the point.
Nathan Pitchford (http://pitchfordsramblings.com/2005/06/19/land-seed-and-blessing-in-the-abrahamic-covenant/) says, "The Abrahamic promise, then, could never be eternal unless something other than the physical land of Palestine is fundamentally intended by the promise. And if something other than the physical land is intended by the promise, then it would be vastly beneficial for us to ascertain the nature of this original intention, together with the ramifications that it has for our understanding of God's unfolding plan of redemption."
The Old Testament saints and prophets sought the truth that is represented by the tree of life.
The prophecy of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 throws some light on the present condition of the church, and the Spirit, and the role of the scriptures in the world. The two witnesses are described as corpses lying in the street. Their reviving again suggests what we can expect to happen in the future.
The prophecy of the two witnesses itself illustrates the fulfillment of the prophecy. The proliferation of theories, and interpretations of this prophecy, along with other prophecies, is one of the means by which the two witnesses are killed by the beast, and the general vagueness and uncertainty about the meaning of the prophecy, fits the description of the two witnesses as lifeless corpses, lying in the street.
The world rejoices over their demise. They can point with glee to scores of misguided "prophets" over the past few centuries, who claimed to be one of them! One pastor said that during his career he had met 26 people who each claimed to be one of the two witnesses. Thus the prophecy depicts the state of the witness of the gospel in the world today, as well as the spiritual condition of the church.
The beast from the pit seeks to destroy the two trees, and extinguish their light. The beast seduces Christians, by its faithless attitude to the scriptures.
Daniel 8:23-24
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dispensationalists apply the promises of God to ethnic Jews, rather than to the saints.
Scholars exalt their own opinions above the two witnesses, and see themselves as critics of the teachings of the apostles. According to them, Peter and John were rivals of Paul. They segregate the Jewish saints from Gentile believers, whereas Paul said they were all one in Christ. They separate the church from its foundations, which Paul said, are the prophets and the apostles. [Ephesians 2:20-21]
By promoting many flawed interpretations, men bring an evil reputation on the message of the prophets, and the true gospel.
2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
There is a connection between the two trees, and the promised land. The revelations of God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were about a promised land. The history in the Old Testament is about Israel possessing their promised land, occupying it, and then losing it. Then, the prophets spoke of a restoration to the land.
The ministry of Jesus was conducted entirely within the promised land. The Spirit was given to the disciples when they were at Jerusalem, and after that, the influence of the Spirit extended world wide.
The two trees in Revelation 11:4 imply a land, or a place for them to grow. The land, and Jerusalem, were raised to heaven in the New Testament. This fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 2:2, that Jerusalem and Mount Zion would be raised up above the hills. Abraham is said to have desired a "heavenly" country.
Hebrews 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
The two witnesses, which are called two olive trees, are also raised up to heaven, in a cloud.
Revelation 11:12
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
The two trees in the garden represent the word of God, and the Spirit. They are described as two witnesses in Revelation 11, and are related to the two candlesticks, as Zechariah 4:11 describes two olive trees, that supply oil through two golden pipes, which is no doubt the fuel of the candlestick.
The seven candlesticks in Revelation 1:12, 20 are identified with seven churches.
Doug
wow, Doug. That's perfectly written. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2010, 05:44:33 PM
wow, Doug. That's perfectly written. :thumbsup:
Thank you, Molly.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2010, 05:44:33 PM
wow, Doug. That's perfectly written. :thumbsup:
Molly put the kettle on
Molly put the kettle on
Molly put the kettle on
And we'll all have some, tree!
Quote from: thinktank on July 14, 2010, 08:02:14 PM
I don't see how Israel and the church are two seperate witnesses, for all jew and gentile are one in Christ Jesus.
To me the 2 witnesses are just that, 2 people, one be John of patmos the other Elijah.
:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
"Bring me the head of Elijah" said Molly
"I want John" said Doug
"I hope it's the anointing your after " said thinktank
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Amen Molly. Since Jesus shed His blood for us and rose again (and then temple worship was destroyed) we are in the age of grace. Only He was/is worthy.
Isaiah said, "make straight in the desert a highway for our God." [Isaiah 40:3]
Isaiah's message was taken up by John the Baptist.
The highway construction Isaiah and John the Baptist referred to was clearly not about building a literal road in the desert, but it was a metaphor. It is one that applies to the teachings of Jesus, for example in the sermon on the mount, and to the teaching of the apostles.
Isaiah gave the name of the highway, in Isaiah 35:8; it is called "The way of holiness."
The woman in Revelation 12, who represents the church, is described as fleeing to the wilderness, in verse 6 and verse 14, and it is in the wilderness, which is a spiritual or figurative one, that this figurative highway exists.
Proverbs 16:17 says: "The highway of the upright is to depart from evil."
Paul spoke plainly; he said, an essential part of the "seal" of a Christian, is to "depart from iniquity."
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Paul wrote,
Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
The apostle Peter gave similar advice, in a step by step fashion, for every believer.
2 Peter 1:3-8
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
A highway implies a well defined, and well traveled route, that many people follow. The highway in the wilderness leads to the kingdom of God, by the most direct route possible.
Isaiah said, the rough places will be made straight, the mountains will be made low, and the valleys will be exalted, or filled up. [Isaiah 40:4] Of course, none of this was meant to be taken literally. The mountains being made low suggests mysteries of scripture will be explained; valleys being filled suggests that things unknown, and missing information will be revealed. Rough places being made straight suggests hard sayings will be explained and understood.
A highway implies a route that is well marked and documented. Its destination is clearly defined; the highway in the wilderness leads people into the kingdom of God. The objective is kept in view; dangers and hazards and potential wrong turns are identified, and marked.
Landmarks along highways are identified. In a wilderness, the mountains are prominent landmarks. Experienced travelers recognize them, and so can easily determine where they are. On the highway in the wilderness, the prophecies of scripture have this role. Mysterious prophecies, and covenants, and revelations of God, are represented by mountains in scripture. For example, Sinai represents the Mosaic legislation. Less prominent revelations are represented by hills. These are all included in the things promised to the saints, and so are represented by the promised land.
Where a highway exists, the overall plan is laid out; on the highway in the wilderness, the overview is revealed by prophecy. The gospel, after all, is a prophecy.
This spiritual highway in the wilderness is for the righteous, not the wicked. They won't follow it.
Isaiah 35:8 [NIV]
And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it.
Other translations suggest a different meaning to the last part of the verse; Young has "even fools err not."
On a highway, the route has to be so clearly marked, even simple folk can find their way.
Isaiah said that the mountains of God will be a "way," and his highways will be exalted. I suggest, the mountains Isaiah referred to are the prophecies of scripture. They become a "way," and a route for the saints to follow, when they are properly interpreted.
Isaiah 49:11
And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
Isaiah said, "prepare ye the way of the people." He also mentions raising a "standard" or a banner.
Isaiah 62:10-11
10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.
11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
What could be more clear? The way of the saints leads to their eternal inheritance, and their promised "rest" in the kingdom of God; that is the "highway in the wilderness."
Doug
Loved that, Doug. :thumbsup:
1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.
--Isa 35
Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2010, 06:38:40 AM
Loved that, Doug. :thumbsup:
1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.
--Isa 35
That's cool, thanks Molly.
Isaiah 35:5-6
Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.This file has been updated: The Woman in the Wilderness. (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/dload/ww.pdf)
Doug
In the table below, various ways in which the saints are referred to in Revelation are listed, along with references.
saints | Rev. 5:8; 8:3, 4; 11:18; 13:7, 10; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6; 18:20, 24; 19:8; 20:9; 22:11. |
temple of God | Rev. 3:12; 11:1, 19 |
woman in heaven | Rev. 12:1, 4 |
woman in the wilderness | Rev. 12:6, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 |
Lamb's wife | Rev. 19:7; 21:9 |
bride | Rev. 21:2, 9; 22:17 |
144,000 sealed in their foreheads | Rev. 7:4-8; 14:1 |
virgins, firstfruits to God | Rev. 14:4 |
holy city, new Jerusalem, holy Jerusalem, camp of the saints, beloved city, city of God | Rev. 3:12; 11:2; 21:2; 20:9; 21:10, 16, 18, 23; 22:14, 19 |
those who dwell in heaven | Rev. 12:12 |
those who overcome | Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21; 12:12; 21:7 |
brethren | Rev. 6:11; 12:10; 19:10; 22:9 |
names are in the book of life | Rev. 3:5; 21:27 |
stars | Rev. 6:13; 8:12; 12:1, 4 |
servants of God | Rev. 1:1; 2:20; 7:3; 11:18; 19:2, 5; 22:3, 6 |
The above table listing references to the saints can be contrasted with the one below, which contains references to unbelievers, and enemies of the church.
those who dwell on the earth | Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 14; 17:2, 8 |
great city | Rev. 11:8, 13; 14:8; 16:19; 17:18; 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21 |
peoples, nations, tongues | Rev. 2:26; 7:9; 11:9, 18; 12:5; 13:7; 14:8; 15:4; 17:15; 18:3, 23; 19:15; 20:8; 21:24; 21:26; 22:2 |
Those whose names are not in the book of life | Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15 |
Gentiles of "outer court" | Rev. 11:2 |
whore | Rev. 17:1, 15, 16; 19:2 |
woman who rides the beast | Rev. 2:20; 17:3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 18 |
those who say they are Jews, and are not | Rev. 2:9; 3:9 |
them which destroy the earth | Rev. 11:18 |
fallen stars | Rev. 6:13; 8:10; 9:1; 12:4 |
Doug
The table below displays the contrast between the saints on the one hand, and the world on the other, as revealed in Revelation.
Saints | The world |
saints, servants of God, brethren, those who overcome | peoples, nations, tongues |
144,000 who are sealed in their foreheads | a great multitude that no man can number |
the 12 tribes of Israel | Gentiles; those who say they are Jews, and are not |
firstfruits to God | nations of those who are saved |
temple of God | outer court |
Lamb's wife, virgins | whore |
woman in heaven | them which destroy the earth |
woman in the wilderness | woman who rides the beast |
those who dwell in heaven | those who dwell on the earth |
holy city, new Jerusalem, holy Jerusalem, camp of the saints, beloved city, city of God | great city, Babylon |
names are in the book of life | those whose names are not in the book of life |
they are rewarded at the 7th trumpet | they are angry at the 7th trumpet |
stars | fallen stars |
Doug
In the wilderness, the Israelites were fed daily with manna, and the church, the woman who flees to the wilderness in Revelation 12:6 and 14, is likewise fed with spiritual manna, the word of God, contained in scripture.
In his messages to the churches, Jesus promised the church at Pergamos that he will give to those who overcome the "hidden manna" to eat. This must refer to a non-literal interpretation of the scriptures, otherwise, there would be nothing "hidden" about it, as the simplistic literal approach can be found by anyone.
Some people, such as the dispensationalists, think there is merit in taking the scriptures as literally as possible. But Jesus showed that the "hidden manna" that he will give is preferred, and is available only to those who "overcome."
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Many interpretations have been offered for the white stone in this scripture. Tony Garland (http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Book_of_Revelation/commentary/htm/030217.htm) wrote:
A number of alternative interpretations have been offered for the meaning of the white stone.
1. Token of Innocence - A white pebble was placed in a ballot box by a Greek judge pronouncing a sentence of acquittal (a black pebble indicating condemnation). ...
2. Token of Privilege - A tessera ... was given at Olympic games to the victor with subsequent attendant social privileges. ...
3. Token of Initiation - A token of initiation into the cult of Asklepios. ...
4. Good Omen - Reflecting the practice of a person who placed a white or black pebble for each happy or unhappy day into an urn. At his death, the colors were totaled to rate the happiness of his life. ...
5. High Priest's Headdress - "One explanation links the white stone with the platelet of gold that graced the high priest's headdress (Ex. 28:36-37)." ...
6. High Priest's Breastplate - "Another explanation from Jewish customs is that the imagery of the white stone originated with the twelve stones in the high priest's breastplate. The names of each of the twelve tribes in Israel were inscribed on the stones. One difficulty with this view is that the stones in the breastplate were not white (Ex. 28:17-21)." ...
7. Urim and Thummim - Trench supposes the white stone may be a diamond, the same stone which is the Urim and Thummim. ...
8. Stone Tablets of the Law - "A fourth explanation in Jewish custom for the white stone connects it with the stones on which God inscribed His moral will (i.e., the Ten Commandments)."
The stones set up at Mount Ebal, after the Israelites entered the promised land, where the law was written out, were first whitewashed with lime, so they were "white stones." [Deuteronomy 27:2-8] Garland wrote:
The written law upon the tablets of stone was a picture of how one day God would write the law upon tablets of flesh: ... (2Cor. 2:2) The white stone may be a memorial to the law in that it records a new name which expresses the character of God to which the believer is being conformed (Rom. 8:29; 1Cor. 15:49; 2Cor. 3:18; Php. 3:21; Col. 3:10).
In his Revelation commentary, J. Preston Eby (http://www.sigler.org/eby/REV45.htm) connected the white stone of Revelation 2:17 with bdellium of Genesis 2:11-12, and so, with the garden of Eden. He wrote:
In our text in the book of Revelation the white stone is mentioned in connection with the hidden manna. Both are given together to the overcomer! In itself, manna was a reminder of Eden: for even while God's people were in the wilderness on their way to the promised land of abundance and fullness, the Lord rained down manna from heaven and their food was plentiful, delicious, and easy to obtain -- as, of course, it had been in the Garden. But, there is a deeper truth yet! Just in case any might fail to get the connection, the Holy Spirit recorded that the manna was the color of bdellium (Num. 11:7) -- the only occurrence of that word apart from its original mention in the book of Genesis! And this plainly tells us the color of bdellium, since we are told elsewhere (Ex. 16:31) that manna was white! Both manna and bdellium were white!
Wesley's Notes (http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/wesleys-explanatory-notes/numbers/numbers-11.html) on Numbers 11:7 state:
11:7 As coriander - seed - Not for colour, for that is black, but for shape and figure. Bdellium - Is either the gum of a tree, of a white and bright colour, or rather a gem or precious stone, as the Hebrew doctors take it; and particularly a pearl wherewith the Manna manifestly agrees both in its colour, which is white, Exo 16:14, and in its figure which is round.
Several older commentaries connect bdellium with a pearl.
The Geneva Study Bible (http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/geneva-study-bible/numbers/numbers-11.html) says:
Numbers 11:7
And the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of {e} bdellium.
(e) Which is a white pearl, or precious stone.
From Net Bible (http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Bdellium):
Bdellium [EBD]
occurs only in Gen. 2:12, where it designates a product of the land of Havilah; and in Num. 11:7, where the manna is likened to it in colour. It was probably an aromatic gum like balsam which exuded from a particular tree (Borassus flabelliformis) still found in Arabia, Media, and India. It bears a resemblance in colour to myrrh. Others think the word denotes "pearls," or some precious stone.
GNU Webster's Dictionary (http://www.wordnik.com/words/bdellium), 1913 (2 definitions)
Bdellium
-noun
1. An unidentified substance mentioned in the Bible (Gen. ii. 12, and Num. xi. 7), variously taken to be a gum, a precious stone, or pearls, or perhaps a kind of amber found in Arabia.
2. A gum resin of reddish brown color, brought from India, Persia, and Africa.
The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=nu&chapter=011&verse=007) says:
and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium;
not an aromatic gum, which Pliny speaks of, which is clear as wax, for that is black or blackish, and not white as the manna; besides, this should be read, not "bdellium", but "bdeloah", and is a precious stone, and, according to Bochart, the pearl; so Ben Melech observes, that it is a precious stone; some say the diamond, and others a round white stone, which they bore and join stones together, and make a chain of, he doubtless means a pearl necklace; though Jarchi says it is the crystal, and so the Jewish writers commonly; (See Gill on 2:12); hence it appears the manna was very pleasant to look at, being of a round form, and of a pearl or crystal colour.
Navigating the Bible (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?action=displayanchor&pentid=P4029) even translates the word for which the KJV has bdellium, as: "with a pearl-like luster."
Numbers 11:7 The manna was like coriander seed with a pearl-like luster.
The "white stone," that Jesus promises his saints, I think probably refers to the pearl which Jesus spoke of in his parable of the merchant who sold all he had, to acquire one pearl of great price, which represents gaining entry into the kingdom of God.
Matthew 13:45-47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
In Revelation 21:21, the gates in the walls of the heavenly Jerusalem each consist of one pearl. "And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl."
Doug
This file has been updated: The woman in the wilderness (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/ww.pdf)
Is there a connection between the story of Samson and the prophecy of the two witnesses? Below is a table that compares various elements in Revelation 11 and the story of Samson.
Gentiles trample the holy city for 42 months. | Israel was delivered into the hand of the Philistines forty years. [Judges 13:1] |
The two witnesses prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. | Samson judged Israel for 20 years, and began to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. [Judges 13:5] |
The two witnesses stand before the Lord of the whole earth. | Samson stood up against the Philistines. |
Two prophets | Samson proposed riddles. |
The two witnesses tormented them that dwelt on the earth. | Samson troubled the Philistines; he set fire to their corn, and vineyards, and olives, and he slew 1,000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass. |
Their enemies must be killed by fire. | A company of 3,000 Jews promised not to harm Samson. They bound him and delivered him to the Philistines, and he killed many of them. |
The two witnesses shut heaven, so it does not rain. | Samson thirsted for water, and found it in the jawbone of an ass. |
At war with the beast from the pit. | Samson was at war with the Philistines. |
The two witnesses are overcome by the beast and their two lamps are put out. | Samson was seduced, and then overcome by the Philistines, who put out both his eyes. [Judges 16:21] |
The people and kindreds and tongues and nations do not allow their dead bodies to be put in graves. The corpses lie in the street three days and a half. | Samson was imprisoned, and displayed for sport. |
The city is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt. | Samson was kept in Gaza. |
The nations rejoice, and make merry, at the death of the two witnesses. | The Philistines rejoiced, and made merry over his capture. |
The two witnesses revive, and stand on their feet. | Samson's hair began to grow back; the Spirit gave him strength to topple the temple. |
One tenth of the city falls. | The temple of Dagon collapsed upon the Philistines. |
7,000 are killed in an earthquake. | 3,000 Philistines were killed in the collapse of the temple of Dagon. |
The death and revival of the two witnesses has a greater impact than their previous ministry. | Samson slew more Philistines by his death, than he had during his entire life. |
They ascend to heaven in a cloud. | His body was retrieved by his family and buried. |
Doug
The table below shows how elements of the prophecy of the two witnesses allude to many of the prophets in both the Old and New Testaments. This indicates that Revelation 11 is not about two individuals who terrorize people living at the end time, but instead it describes the role of the scriptures, and the spirit of prophecy, throughout history.
| Two witnesses | Parallels in the prophets |
| The holy city trampled by Gentiles | Samson |
| No rain for three years and six months | Elijah [Luke 4:25; James 5:17] |
| Fire from their mouth | Elijah [2 Kings 1:10, 12] |
| Waters turned to blood | Moses [Exodus 7:17; Psalm 105:29] Elisha [2 Kings 3:23] |
| Sackcloth | David [Psalm 69:11] Daniel [Daniel 9:3] Isaiah [Isaiah 20:2] |
| 1,260 days | Daniel's time, times, and a half |
| Two prophets | Moses and Elijah [Matthew 17:3] |
| Two olive trees standing before the Lord of the earth | The witness of all the prophets and saints |
| Overcome by the beast from the pit | Samson overcome by the Philistines |
| Dead bodies left unburied | [Psalm 79:2] |
| Bodies lie in the street | [Isaiah 51:23] |
| Three days and a half | Daniel's time, times, and a half |
| Sodom, Egypt | Samson in Gaza |
| Their enemies rejoice | Samson |
| All plagues | All the prophets; e.g, Moses, Isaiah, Joel, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Obadiah, Jesus, John, etc. |
| Revival | Samson, Jonah, Jesus |
| Ascent to heaven in a cloud | Jesus |
Doug
The prophecy of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is introduced by a reference to the measuring of the temple of God. This first verse of the prophecy is often misunderstood, as it is not referring to a literal temple. In verse 19 the temple is said to be in heaven, as is the woman in the following chapter. The temple John was told to measure certainly was not Herod's temple, that was destroyed in 70 AD, as some preterists have claimed. Rather, it refers to the measuring of the spiritual temple that is described, and measured in the prophecies of Ezekiel.
Revelation 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Compare the above verse with the following from the prophecy of Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 40:2-4
2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.
4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.
The use of a reed in both prophecies, and the activity of measuring, suggest that John's prophecy alludes to the prophecy of Ezekiel, which is also about measuring the temple, given during the exile, in a period when the temple of Solomon that was made with hands had ceased to exist. How can a literal temple be measured, if it does not exist?
In Ezekiel's prophecy, the measuring of the temple is the topic beginning in chapter 40, and extends over the following chapters to the end of the book. This temple must be a spiritual or figurative one, not a temporal one made of wood and stones.
Mountains in prophetic terminology are symbolic of revelations of God, as illustrated in Paul's use of Mount Sinai as a symbol of the Mosaic legislation in Galatians 4:24-25. So Ezekiel's reference to being taken in vision to a high mountain, from where he described the measuring of the temple, suggests that the things he was about to reveal must be taken as symbolic, and require interpretation. It is not a literal temple of wood and stone that he was about to describe.
In the New Testament, Stephen, in his last speech, pointed out:
Acts 7:48
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
This point is emphasized by repetition later on in Acts, when Paul said to the people of Athens:
Acts 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
In the prophecy of Ezekiel, about the measuring of the temple, he includes a description of the glory of God filling the temple.
Ezekiel 43:1-4
1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
Ezekiel's temple must be one that is not made with hands. The spiritual temple, in the NT, is the church, founded on the prophets and apostles. [Ephesians 2:19-22] The implication is that the glory of God is to fill the spiritual temple, the church. This must be the background for John's prophecy of the two witnesses.
Another interesting feature of Ezekiel's temple is the river (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/%7Etcc/PL/ER.php?page=fairbairn1.html) that flows from it, which heals the areas where it flows. It is described in Ezekiel 47:1-12.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
In his prophecy of the 70 weeks, Daniel says the sacrifices and oblations would cease in the "midst of" the last week; "... and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." [Daniel 9:27] The sacrifice and the oblation ceased, when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, in 70 AD, so that event must have been "the midst of the week," the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks.
The 70 weeks prophecy was to point to the time of the appearance of the Messiah, and also bring in all the things listed in Daniel 9:24. The Messiah would appear at the end of the first two periods of 7, and 62 weeks. The other things mentioned would be fulfilled at the end of the 70th week.
The last week of the prophecy, the 70th week, is recognized by many to be a divided week. The first half-week can be identified with the ministry of Jesus and John the Baptist, and the interpretation of the final half-week, the "time, times and a half," has been a topic of much dispute.
This is the period to which the prophecy of the two witnesses applies. It is the same period for which the church, the woman in heaven of Revelation 12:1, flees to the wilderness. [Revelation 12:6, 14] And it is also the period during which the beast of chapter 13 makes war with the saints. [Revelation 13:5]
These time periods must all be reconciled, in order to properly identify the two witnesses. Otherwise, these prophecies will very likely be misinterpreted.
Dispensationalism insists that the "time, times and a half," and the 42 months, and 1,260 days, mentioned in Revelation 11, 12, and 13, all refer to a literal three and a half years, that occurs at the end of the age. And preterism also says this period refers to some period of three and a half years, that occurred during the first century.
A problem with these claims is that 1,260 days is not exactly three and a half years, but an ideal number, 3.5 x 12 x 30. It fits the pattern of "a time, times, and a half." The other numbers given by Daniel, 1,290 days and 1,335 days, also fit the pattern when years of two kinds are used, of 12 and 13 months. These are ideal numbers, not literal, as months are not exactly 30 days.
1,290 days = 13*30 + 2*12*30 + 12*30/2
1,335 days = 12*30 + 2*13*30 + 13*30/2
These are simply alternate ways of representing "a time, times, and a half," and I think, clearly demonstrate that it is meant to be symbolic, as no literal three and a half years can have two or three different numbers of days.
Charles D. Alexander, in Revelation Spiritually Understood (http://www.allbygrace.com/alexrevelationmainpage.html), says the two witnesses are the church, which is different to my interpretation. He wrote:
THE TWO WITNESSES ARE THE CHURCH
To summarise therefore, the Two Witnesses are 'the two olive trees standing before the Lord of the whole earth' and we have now seen that they cannot be two individuals (such as a resurrected Moses and a translated Elijah), but can only represent the entire church of God in her agelong testimony in this world, sustained from within by the Spirit of God ever flowing from Christ.
...
THE SPIRIT and the BRIDE SAY, COME" (Revelation 22:17)
Need we any further proof as to the identity of the Two Witnesses?
Alexander says the following about the time periods of 42 months and 1,260 days mentioned in Revelation 11:
FORTY AND TWO MONTHS
All the numbers in Revelation are symbolic. They cannot be fitted into the framework of world history, though there are many startling coincidences which embolden the unwary and create an enthusiasm for chronological interpretation. The spiritual interpretation of this great book must be maintained at all costs, for the past history of chronological investigation is strewn with the carcasses of confident predictions which now have no relevance to contemporary events. Historicism has run out of time and has almost disappeared in the vagaries of post-millennialism presently revived by the contemporary situation in Palestine while ignoring the contemporary state of the church and the revival of heathenism. Some day soon, perhaps, many of our friends may awake to the realities of the Latter Day apostasy, and the realisation that the Millennium is past!
If not a measurable period of time in the realm of historical chronology, what then does the figure of 42 months signify? We have already said in a previous chapter that the numbers in Daniel and Revelation of 1260 days, 42 months, 3 ½ years and 'time, times, and half a time' all correspond with each other and are to be interpreted in terms of the most indefinite of them - 'time, times, and half a time'. Thus we are dealing with an indefinite period of time, known only to God and not intended to be measured by man. If it could be measured in advance what consolation would it be for those who were able to calculate that no deliverance was to be expected in their day or perhaps for centuries to come? Or what office would be left to faith, if it could be ascertained that in the period of one's own lifetime all would be consummated and the Lord would return? What becomes of the Saviour's warning that of the day and hour of His return no man knows, nor yet is it a part of the Son's commission from the Father to make it known?
THE BROKEN SEVEN
In place of these speculations we find it much more comforting to see all these strange figures in the Apocalypse as being signs of THE BROKEN SEVEN (the 3 ½ years). Seven being the number of divine completeness, and being so used throughout the Apocalypse, the broken seven must relate to judgment and is a warning to the world and an assurance to the people of God of the steadfastness of the divine purposes in commanding a limited period only for the power of this world. The enemy will not endure one day beyond the divine decree.
The 42 months we regard therefore as the whole period of time from Patmos to the Second Advent of our Lord. It began with John's imprisonment, and the Book of Revelation is concerned with that event and the interpretation of it in terms of the prolonged sufferings and probation of the church typified in the afflictions of "John our brother".
During that immense period of time, the church is comforted in the knowledge that the onset and the termination of the 1260 days (and its other numerical equivalents) are fixed by the Lord's sovereign determination. The arbiter of time is the Mighty Angel of chapter 10: the true Michael, the Angel of the Covenant, Christ, the Son of God, the Conqueror of sin, death and hell, the Woman's Seed, the Bruiser of the Serpent's head. It is not for us to know the times and the seasons which forever remain in the Father's own power (Acts 1:7); our part is to preach the Word of God and hold forth the testimony of Christ in a hostile world in which all power appears to be given to the enemies of the kingdom of God.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Another discussion about the significance of the time periods of Revelation is provided in Patrick Fairbairn's Prophecy viewed in respect to its distinctive nature, its special function, and proper interpretation (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/PF/IP.php?page2=Fairbairn2-3.html) [Published by T. and T. Clark, 1865] PART 2, CHAPTER III.
Below are Fairbairn's comments about the "time, times and a half" and the related numbers, 42 months and 1,260 days of Revelation 11, 12, and 13.
It remains only to notice the indications of time contained in the portion of the Apocalypse we have been surveying. These appear to be simply three, though one of them is expressed in a threefold manner. It is the period of the church's tried and oppressed condition--denoted first in chap. xi. 2, as a period of forty-two months, during which "the holy city is trodden down of the Gentiles," during which also the beast was to continue in its power to blaspheme and injure (chap. xiii. 5); then as consisting of 1260 days (forty-two months multiplied by 30 days), during which the witnesses, representatives of a faithful, but oppressed and persecuted church, were to prophecy, chap. xi. 3, and the church was to abide in the wilderness, chap. xii. 6, having a place and food prepared for her by God; and finally, as a time, times and a half (corresponding to one year of twelve months, two of the same, and a half-year of six, or to forty-two months, or again to 1260 days), during which the church was to remain and be fed in the wilderness, chap. xii. 14. In Dan. vii. 25, where the expression first occurs, it is the time during which the saints of God were to be given into the hand of the power that was to speak great words against the Most High. These are manifestly but different modes of expressing one and the same period, as the state of things also to which they are applied is substantially identical, though variously represented. For the sojourn in the wilderness on the part of the faithful and proper spouse, the treading down of the holy city by those who belonged only to the court of the Gentiles, and the testifying for the truth of God by a faithful remnant clothed in sackcloth, and wrestling against error and corruption; these are obviously but different symbolical representations of the same abnormal and dislocated state of things. The other two periods mentioned are both very brief, as compared with the one just noticed. The shortest is that during which the bodies of the faithful witnesses are represented as lying dead, though unburied, three and a half days, chap. xi. 12; and the other is the five months during which the scorpion-locusts were to have power to torment the followers of the beast, chap. ix. 5.
Now, it is scarcely possible to avoid being struck even on the most cursory inspection of these periods, with a peculiarity that is common to them all--the broken and incomplete aspect they present. A certain whole was evidently in respect to each of them in the mind of the Divine author of the vision, as that toward which the parties spoken of were aiming, but were arrested midway in their career. This is particularly observable in the largest and by much the most important number, which in every form--whether as time, times and a half, or as the months and days that make up three and a half years--is most expressive of an unfinished course, a period somehow cut off in the middle. In like manner, the three and a half days of rejoicing over the unburied corpses of the slain witnesses, betokens the same violent and abrupt termination of the course indicated; in their ungodly triumph, the adversaries could not complete more than half of one of the briefest revolutions of time--one of the smallest cycles of the whole period allotted to the ascendency of evil. The incompleteness may appear less palpable in the five months specified for the plague of scorpion-locusts; but it will scarcely do so to those who have attended to the use made in Scripture of ten with reference to certain kinds of totality. The five is simply the broken ten.
So marked a peculiarity in the use of all these numbers is itself a strong presumption in favour of their symbolical import It seems to stamp their value as indications of relative, rather than of absolute periods of duration--relative both as regards each other, and also as regards an ideal whole. And it will appear to do so the more convincingly the more the periods are viewed in reference to the parties mentioned, which are the entire spiritual church throughout the world, on the one side, and the whole antichristian power on the other; for in regard to such vast bodies, and their wide-reaching interests, what could such periods avail in their natural sense! They could obviously afford but a mere fraction of the time necessary for the accomplishment of the results connected with them; nor could such results in actual history be shut up into any periods consisting of such exact and definite measures. Another, and very powerful consideration in favour of the same view is the place of these historical numbers--surrounded on every hand, not with the literal, but with the symbolical. The woman that is persecuted, and the dragon who persecutes; the wilderness into which she flees, and the floods sent after her; the beast that rages against the truth, and the two witnesses who testify for it to the death; the holy city that is trodden down, and the Egypt or Babylon by whom the treading is effected; all are symbolically used, and shall the periods of working be otherwise than symbolical? In that case there would be the violation of one of the plainest laws of symbolical writing, and confusion and arbitrariness, as a matter of necessity, would be brought into the interpretation. It is true, the number seven, as applied to the heads of the beast, and the number ten spoken of its ultimate forms of separate organization, have already been found by us to possess a kind of historical verification. But this, when more closely considered, manifests an evident striving after the symbolical. For, it is to make out the number seven, that St John diverges so strikingly here from the representation of Daniel, taking in the two earlier worldly kingdoms, which Daniel had omitted, and making of the divided state of Daniel's fourth empire a separate kingdom--the seventh. Nay, even this seventh he calls in a sense also the eighth--chap. xvii. 11--although seven still is taken as the proper number, because it alone has the proper symbolical import. The beast comes into view mainly as the rival of God, and seven being the common symbol of completeness for the Divine manifestations in the world (Isa. xxx. 26; Zech. iii. 9, iv. 2; Prov. ix. 1; Rev. i. 4, iii. 1, etc.)--originating, no doubt, in the sevenfold acts of God at creation--the worldly rival of God's power and glory in the world is, in token of its God-defying character, presented under the same number of manifestations. For a like reason the divided state of the last manifestation is distributed into the number ten. This also is often used as a symbol of completeness, on which account the ancients called it the perfect number, which comprehends all others in itself. But it commonly denotes completeness in respect to human interests and relations--as in the tithes or tenths (ten being regarded as comprising the entire property, from which one was selected to do homage to him who gave the whole), and the ten commandments, the sum of man's dutiful obedience. When, therefore, the divided state into which the modern Roman world fell, is represented under ten horns or kingdoms, it may well be doubted whether this should be pressed farther than as indicating, by a round number, the totality of the new states--the diversity in the unity--whether or not it might admit of being exactly and definitely applied to so many historical kingdoms. There is always some difficulty in making out an exact correspondence; and we should the less hold such a correspondence to be necessary, since even in the case of the tribes of Israel, when taken to represent the company of an elect people (chap. vii.), one tribe is totally omitted to preserve the symbolism of the historical twelve. This shows very strikingly the stress laid on the symbolical element, and strengthens the conclusion, that both in the seven and ten, as applied to the beast, and in the broken periods now under consideration, that element is primarily respected. Lastly, there is to be added on the same side the obviously loose setting of the periods; neither their starting-point, nor their termination is sharply defined. Viewed historically, indeed, one does not see how it could have been otherwise. The flight of the church into the wilderness, or the treading down of the holy city by the Gentiles, came on gradually; and appeared in different places at different times. It cannot be linked to definite historical epochs, as if at one or other of these it commenced for the first time, and for the whole church; and from the very nature of things, the termination must have a like diversity and gradation in its accomplishment. This draws a plain line of demarcation between the periods before us, and Daniel's seventy weeks, which are definitely bounded both in respect to their commencement and their close. The narrower field, and more outward character of the things they referred to, easily admitted of such a limitation; but here the world is the field, and the cause of vital Christianity throughout its borders the great interest at stake.
Giving all these considerations their due weight, we cannot avoid arriving at the conclusion, that the periods mentioned, in accordance with the general character of the book, are to be chiefly, if not exclusively, understood in a symbolical manner, as serving to indicate the times of relative length or brevity which the operations described were destined to occupy. If anything further is implied, it should only, we conceive, be looked for in some general correspondence, as to form, between the symbol and the reality, such as might be sufficient to guide thoughtful and inquiring minds to a more firm assurance of the realisation of the vision. But all precise and definite calculations respecting the periods, as they necessarily proceed upon a disregard of the symbolical character of the book, and upon a too external and political contemplation of the events to which it points, so they must inevitably be defeated of their aim in the future, as they have continually been in the past. The prophecy was not written to give men to know after such a fashion, the times and the seasons, which the Father has put in His own power.
Doug
In reference to the comments by other authors about the interpretation of the "time, times and a half," and 1,260 days, and 42 months, of Revelation 11, 12, and 13, previously quoted:
Charles D. Alexander sees "all these strange figures in the Apocalypse as being signs of THE BROKEN SEVEN (the 3 ½ years)."
Similarly, Patrick Fairbairn refers to "the broken and incomplete aspect they present."
Fairbairn makes the point that (1) the numbers are symbolic; and (2) they represent a "broken" or incomplete period.
Both these points are valid, in my opinion; the "time, times and a half" is simply half of "seven times."
In the quote by Fairbairn, he apparently viewed the period of time that these numbers represent as being an incomplete period, "cut off in the midst." But I suggest, they are the final half of a period of "seven times," and represent the completion of it. This is supported in Daniel 12:7, where the fulfillment of the same period is mentioned as referring to the time when "all these things shall be finished."
Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Included here are the events described in Daniel 12:1-3.
Daniel 9:24-27 includes the promise that Christ, the Messiah, will "confirm the covenant with many for one week." Jesus is the Messiah whose coming was promised, who appeared when the first two sections of the 70 weeks were fulfilled, at the end of the 69th week. A "week" remained, which is the 70th week, and the ministry of Jesus was the first half of it. The remaining period is the the last half week, as the ministry of Jesus is thought to have been three and a half years, perhaps including the ministry of John. The time since then is the symbolic time, times and a half.
A "week" in the 70 weeks prophecy is "seven times." The last, or 70th week is a divided week. Jesus confirmed the covenant during his ministry, and continues to do so, through his Spirit given to the church, and by fulfilling his word.
All of this fits the interpretation of the "time, times and a half" as the last half-week of the 70th week, and as a symbol of the entire church age.
Since the 70th week is also "seven times," it corresponds to the last of the four periods of seven times in Leviticus 26, when God becomes reconciled to his people, and when he "remembers the land."
Here, I suggest, the "land" refers to the invisible things promised to the saints, their eternal inheritance.
There can be no breaks or gaps in the 70 weeks, since Daniel refers to Leviticus 26 as "the curse" that was poured out on Israel, Daniel 9:11. Any gap in the 70 weeks would mean a lapse in the curse, and so would imply God is temporarily reconciled to Israel, which of course has not happened. The reconciliation is to be forever.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
The prophecy of the two witnesses is a minefield for preterism. However, some have presumed to say, Revelation 11 actually supports their views!
The temple mentioned in Revelation 11:1-2, they claim, is the literal temple, that had not yet been destroyed.
But this implies that John's prophecy in Revelation 2:1-2 was a failed prediction of the temple's preservation, which contradicted what both Jesus and Daniel had previously said about it.
Whereas John said the Gentiles would occupy the temple court, and the city would be trampled for three and a half years, Jesus had already indicated its complete destruction. "Not one stone will remain upon another," he said. [Matthew 24:1-2]
Hmm... Is it reasonable, that the apostle John would have so blatantly contradicted the prophecy of Jesus? Why would he do that?
Dr. Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., a leading preterist, has written about the prophecy of the two witnesses. In one of his books, he seemed concerned, not to understand what the prophecy teaches, but rather to support his theory of an early date for Revelation, and the preterist system of interpretation.
The following quotation is from: Beast of Revelation (http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/a_pdfs/kgbr.pdf) by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Institute for Christian Economics Tyler, Texas. 1994. p. 121-122
Also we should notice that after the 42-month treading down of Jerusalem, the altar is seen no longer in earthly Jerusalem, but in heaven (Rev. 11:18). This is significant because it is there Christ's kingdom originates (John 18:36; Heb. 1:3). It is there that Christians have their ultimate citizenship (Eph. 2:6; Col. 3:1-2; Heb. 12:22).
Although it is recognized on all sides that there is an obvious involvement of the symbolic in the passage, there surely must be some historical reality that forms the basis of the symbol. After all, the symbolic names "Egypt" and "Sodom" refer to the historical city Jerusalem (Rev. 11:8). If John wrote about literal Jerusalem ("where also their Lord was crucified") twenty-five years after the destruction of the literal temple (as per the evangelically formulated late-date argument), it would seem most improbable that he would speak of the temple as if it were still standing. The symbol would be confusing in its blatant anachronism. The temple is required to be standing for the symbolical action of the vision to have any meaning.
It seems obvious that Dr. Gentry has stepped on a number of landmines here.
First, he notes that the temple and the altar in the final verse of the chapter is located in heaven. This destroys his idea that the temple mentioned in the first two verses is a literal one; the temple in heaven is the church, just as the woman in heaven, in Revelation 12:1, also represents the church.
Gentry is simply wrong, IMO, when he applies the labels "Sodom" and "Egypt" to Jerusalem; the place where Jesus was crucified was outside the city, as the law required. [Leviticus 24:13-23; Numbers 15:35-36]
Hebrews 13:12
Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Jesus was probably crucified on the Mount of Olives, as the crucifixion site was a place where the centurion standing nearby could have a fine view of the curtain of the temple, as he observed when it was rent in two when Jesus died. This requires a location east of the temple, and upon an elevated site, such as the Mount of Olives.
Mark 15:37-39
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Another landmine for Gentry is his own tenuous argument that in order for John to mention measuring the temple, a literal temple had to exist. This obviously has no merit, as when Ezekiel wrote his prophecy covering several chapters at the end of Ezekiel, about an angel measuring the temple, a literal temple did not exist. Ezekiel was among the exiles in Babylon. The literal temple had been destroyed, just as when John wrote his prophecy. The implication is that he was referring to the spiritual temple, the church. [Ephesians 2:20-22]
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Preterists often ridicule Dispensationalism, and its supporters, for the long gap that is invoked, in their interpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. They insert the gap of many centuries between the 69th and 70th weeks.
There is no gap in the 70 weeks, but it is quite wrong to say the 70 weeks have been fulfilled already, as preterists claim, IMO.
Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is about the duration of Jerusalem's desolation, and the restoration of true worship, and Israel's reconciliation to God, and other things mentioned in Daniel 9:24, that we don't see fulfilled yet.
Isaiah said that Jerusalem and Zion will be raised up above the hills [Isa. 2:2] and in the NT, Jerusalem is put up in heaven, and identified with the church. "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem..." [Heb. 12:22] So Jerusalem and Zion are raised up far higher than the hills. But, the desolation has not ended.
In Revelation 11, 12, and 13, the saints are involved in warfare. This is a great struggle for possession of the church's spiritual inheritance. In Revelation 11:7, the beast from the pit makes war with God's two witnesses, and overcomes them. In Revelation 12:7, the war is in heaven; it is spiritual warfare, as angels are involved in it. The great red dragon, Satan, is cast out, and when this happens, he has only a short time left, to cause grief in the world. In Revelation 13:7, the beast with seven heads and ten horns makes war with the saints, and overcomes them. He continues for 42 months, the same period mentioned in Revelation 11:2, where the holy city is trampled by Gentiles. The holy city here is the church. This 42 months, 1,260 days, and "time, times and a half" of Revelation 12:14 are all related to the 70 weeks; they represent the last half-week.
The first two sections in the 70 weeks, 7 weeks and 62 weeks, point to the coming of the Messiah, and in the last week, he "confirms the covenant with many." The ministry of Jesus was part of that last week. He confirmed the covenant. Paul said,
Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
His crucifixion began the last half-week, which can't be a literal three years and a half, or else the apostles would have noticed that Daniel's prophecy had been fulfilled, but nowhere do they tell us that. Jesus continues to fulfill his covenant with the saints today, so the last half-week is not finished yet.
There are no gaps in the 70 weeks, as that would imply there a temporary reconciliation, and a lapse of the curse, that Daniel refers to in 9:11. The curse alludes to the four periods of seven times in Leviticus 26. The first of these periods was the exile; the last three correspond to the three sections of the 70 weeks. In the final one, God is reconciled to his people and remembers his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that Paul calls the gospel. He also "remembers the land," which is symbolic of spiritual things promised to the saints. Understanding Daniel's prophecy is included in those things; and Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is key to understanding the time periods mentioned in Revelation 11, 12, and 13, which all refer to the same thing, the time, times and a half, which is symbolic of the last half-week in the 70 weeks, when Jesus continues to confirm his covenant with his saints.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
:cloud9: Lots of good points you make here, Doug....thanks :thumbsup:
...went to the site where Fairbairn's Prophecy is located. Interpretation is one thing, but to say Scripture was altered and needs to be restored is another. Nevertheless, there are some wonderful books and info at this site to pick over. Interesting, the idea that "the cleansing of the heavens" of Daniel 8 refers to the commencement of the scientific revolution in the 1750s. Too bad, due to time and space, it's not so easy to share seeking in the Word together.
Quote from: reFORMer on September 05, 2010, 12:43:25 AM
...went to the site where Fairbairn's Prophecy is located. Interpretation is one thing, but to say Scripture was altered and needs to be restored is another. Nevertheless, there are some wonderful books and info at this site to pick over. Interesting, the idea that "the cleansing of the heavens" of Daniel 8 refers to the commencement of the scientific revolution in the 1750s. Too bad, due to time and space, it's not so easy to share seeking in the Word together.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 04, 2010, 05:39:57 PM
:cloud9: Lots of good points you make here, Doug....thanks :thumbsup:
Thanks, Cardinal.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
In the prophecy about the two witnesses, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit is Satan.
Revelation 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
How is it, that the beast is described as ascending from the bottomless pit? That implies he must have already been put in there. But it is not where he prefers to be. Isaiah described Lucifer, who many think refers to Satan, as aspiring to ascend into heaven.
Isaiah 14:12-13
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
The "sides of the north" refers to the temple of God, and Zion, in the Psalms.
Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
"The city of the great King" refers to the heavenly Jerusalem, the church. Jesus quoted this phrase in Matthew 5:35. Satan seeks to exult himself above the stars, who are the saints in Daniel 12:3, & in Revelation 12:4.
In Revelation 12, both the dragon, and woman, are in heaven. The dragon is identified as Satan in vs. 9. But Paul described the adversary as restrained, in 2 Thessalonians 2:6; "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time." Another version has:
2 Thessalonians 2:6 Weymouth New Testament
And now you know what restrains him, in order that his true character may be revealed at his appointed time.
This refers to Satan as restrained. Jesus said that he saw the devil "fall from heaven." The kingdom of Satan was subject to the disciples.
Luke 10:17-18
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Satan is the "strong man" who was bound, in the parable of Jesus. [Mark 3:27]
Jesus said to his disciples, what you bind on earth, is bound in heaven. And what you loose on earth, is loosed in heaven. [Matthew 18:18]
Does this apply to the apostles only? Or did also apply to their successors? And does it imply that Satan was let loose from his prison by the church?
In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is bound with a great chain, and cast into a bottomless pit, for a thousand years. This refers not to events far off in the future, as the dispensationalists say, but the binding of Satan in the lifetime of John. Many of the events described in Revelation were "things which must shortly come to pass," [Revelation 1:1]; in Revelation 22:7, & 12, Jesus says, "Behold, I come quickly." And he is yet to come, in chapter 16.
Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Satan is described as ascending from the bottomless pit in Revelation 11:7, so he must have already been put in there. He was bound by Jesus. In other scriptures, the angels who sinned were chained by chains of darkness. [2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6] Peter said Jesus "preached unto the spirits in prison." [1 Peter 3:19]
After the apostolic age, Satan ascends from his bottomless pit, and makes war against the two witnesses. [Revelation 11:7] It is called a prison in Revelation 20:7. His ascent from the bottomless pit is connected with the whore who rides upon the scarlet colored beast, having the names of blasphemy, and 7 heads and 10 horns, in Revelation 17:8. His ascent from the bottomless pit has to do with the growth of false religion, represented by the whore, and his influence upon the saints.
The ascent of Satan from the bottomless pit is parallel to Daniel's prophecy of the rise of the little horn of the fourth beast in Daniel 7, which makes war with, and dominates the saints during the "time, times and a half."
This is described by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, where the "man of sin" establishes himself in the temple of God, which is the church. He is the "strong man" in the parable of Jesus.
There is a connection between these scriptures and the parable of the tares, which were sown among the wheat, and allowed to remain till the time of the harvest at the end of the world, when they are bound up in bundles, and burned.
In Revelation 12, Satan is in heaven, showing he has ascended up out of the bottomless pit, into heaven, but his presence there is disputed, and it is what the war is all about.
In Revelation 20:8-9, he deceives the nations of the earth, so they invade the camp of the saints.
The two witnesses in Revelation 11:7 are overcome and slain. In Revelation 12:4, a third of the stars are cast to the earth. They are the ones who follow the tail of the dragon; a "tail" represents false prophets, Isaiah 9:15.
Eventually, Satan is cast out of heaven as a result of a great spiritual war. He is called "the accuser of our brethren." [Revelation 12:9] Then, he begins to persecute the woman, who is given two wings of a great eagle, which I suggest, represent a good understanding of prophecy.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
John's prophecy describes the two witnesses at war with the beast, and they are killed, and their bodies lie in the street, and then the people of the world make merry over their demise.
No doubt, the proliferation of interpretations and the general misunderstanding of the prophecies of scripture contributes to disbelief.
Spanish Jesuit Luis Alcazar (1554-1613) was the author of 'Veteris Testamenti partes quas respicit Apocalypsis' (Old Testament references regarding the Apocalypse) (1631) which argued for a preterist interpretation of some of the prophecies of Revelation. It was soon read by Dutch Arminian and humanist Hugo Grotius (1583-1645), who tried to establish common ground between Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church by publishing a similar work, entitled 'Commentary on Certain Texts Which Deal with Antichrist' (1640), in which he attempted to argue that the texts relating to Antichrist had their fulfillment in the 1st century AD.
In 'Commentaries On The New Testament' (1641-1650), he expanded his Preterist views to include the Olivet prophecy and Revelation. F. F. Bruce wrote of him:
Grotius broke with the Reformed tradition of identifying the Papacy with Antichrist. Grotius's Annotationes in Novum Testamentum (1641ff.) carried on the philological and historical method of Flacius Illyricus and Camerarius, and did so more rigorously and in greater detail. So objective was his treatment of the text, in fact, that he was charged with rationalism. He saw that the individual books of the New Testament could best be understood in their respective historical contexts, even if he was not always successful in his attempts to identify those contexts. Thus he saw in 2 Thess. 2:1-12 a reference to Emperor Gaius's attempt to have his statue set up in the Jerusalem temple, and accordingly dated the epistle c. A.D. 40, making it the earliest of the Pauline writings. He inferred from 2 Pet. 3:3f. that that epistle was written after A.D. 70 and therefore not by Peter the apostle; he treated the name "Peter" in the initial salutation as a later addition to the text and conjectured that the author was Simeon, bishop of Jerusalem, who was traditionally martyred under Trajan.
[F. F. Bruce, "The History of New Testament Study (http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/nt-interpretation/02_history_bruce.pdf)," I. Howard Marshall, ed., New Testament Interpretation: Essays on Principles and Methods, 1977. Carlisle: The Paternoster Press, revised 1979. pp.21-59.]
Hugo Grotius identified "that Wicked" of 2 Thessalonians 2:8 with Simon Magus.
His disciple in England was Henry Hammond (1605-1660), who identified the Antichrist of 2 Thess. 2:3, 9 and 1 John 2:18 with Simon Magus; "The beast" of Rev. 13 was identified by Hammond with "heathen worship" of Rome.
Henry More (1614-1687) of Cambridge University objected to the ideas of Grotius on the grounds that if Grotius were right, and if in consequence the Book of Revelation did not cover the whole development of human history, then it would be "utterly Useless."
[Johannes Van Den Berg, Grotius and Apocalyptic thought in England (http://books.google.com/books?id=nULvj0SoH6sC), in: Hugo Grotius, theologian: essays in honour of G.H.M. Posthumus Meyjes, Ed. by Guillaume Henri Marie Posthumus Meyjes, Henk J. M. Nellen, Edwin Rabbie. Brill, 1994. p. 178.]
IMO, to say that the book of Revelation had become "utterly useless" for enlightening the church, is quite similar to John's metaphor of the two witnesses being killed, and their corpses lying in the street. Thus, the rise of preterism, since the time of Henry More, can be identified as one of the ways the beast has killed the witness of Bible prophecy to the church; and similar things can be said of dispensationalism. An alternative to these two categories of interpretation, which are popular today, is briefly sketched in a 3 page pdf article at the link below.
Doug
The middle way (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/dload/PBDC.pdf).
:cloud9: Exactly....if Revelation was about 70AD it should be in a "history" section, and of no special interest to the church at large 2000+ years later....Blessings....
:thumbsup:
I don't think you will ever come across a believer who will say that they have cornered the market on all the ways and Word of God. And yet, the same number will become aggressive when there's a difference of vision or direction on any given subject. Implying that even though their minds don't see them as the authority of spiritual things, their actions tell a different story.
I would ask that you could leave at least a small portion of your heart open to the idea that perhaps the things we "think" are certain can still be incomplete. So that those of us who do think that books like Revelation and portions of Daniel have already transpired in this natural realm but not fully manifested on other levels. I do still see explanations of who the two witnesses were and when they were left out in the open for all the world to scoff at them . . .I still believe they are the two witnesses who manifest God above all others in the fashion of Christ and the Holy Ghost.
I beleive when Christ entered the ministry at 30, he died in the streets and for the following three and a half years of his ministry, he was trampled, shamed, beaten, until the Day his Father called him to "come up here" and he left the tomb. I still think these things fit in times before us and we are in another age where waiting for those natural events to still unfold before our eyes isn't as necessary as most still think.
John introduces his prophecy of the two witnesses with:
Revelation 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod...
A reed is evidently both a tool for measurement, and a unit of length.
Revelation 21:15
And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
See also several references to a reed, as a unit of length in Ezekiel 40, and 42.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible declares that the reed used by Greeks and Romans was 10 feet in length.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible says:
A reed - ... kalamos. This word properly denotes a plant with a jointed hollow stalk, growing in wet grounds. Then it refers to the stalk as cut for use - as a measuring-stick, as in this place; or a mock scepter, Matthew 27:29-30; or a pen for writing, 3 John 1:13. Here it means merely a stick that could be used for measuring.
Like unto a rod - This word - ... rabdos - means properly a "rod, wand, staff," used either for scourging, 1 Corinthians 4:21; or for leaning upon in walking, Matthew 10:10; or for a scepter, Hebrews 1:8. Here the meaning is, that the reed that was put into his hands was like such a rod or staff in respect to size, and was therefore convenient for handling. The word "rod" also is used to denote a measuring-pole, Psalm 74:2; Jeremiah 10:16; Jeremiah 51:19.
In 1 Corinthians 4:21, Paul refers to a rod in the sense of discipline.
Paul wrote to Timothy that the scriptures are profitable for reproof and for correction.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The rod, and the staff of God were said to be a comfort to David. He knew what it was like to be disciplined.
Psalm 23:4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
In the Old Testament, the book of Proverbs refers to "the rod of correction."
Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Thus the scriptures, and the Spirit of God, and John's prophecy about the two witnesses, are a "rod" by which the saints may be disciplined and corrected. And Jesus referred to the Spirit as the Comforter. To receive instruction from Christ is a comfort to the saints, as it was to David.
The rod is also compared with the whip, used to control the horse, and the bridle that is used to harness an ass.
Proverbs 26:3
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
But we are advised not to be like the horse, or the mule.
Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Dionysius of Alexandria, writing in the third century, disputed with some who said the author of the Apocalypse was someone other than John the disciple of Jesus. He pointed out some expressions and ideas in Revelation that also occur in John's Gospel and in his epistles, but nowhere else. The examples he cited are included in the table below, together with some others, with references added.
Jesus is The Lamb
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John 1:29, 36; 21:15
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Revelation 5:6, 8, 12, 13; 6:1, 16; 7:9, 10, 14, 17; 12:11; 13:8, 11; 14:1, 4, 10; 15:3; 17:4; 19:7, 9; 21:14, 22, 23, 27; 22:1, 3
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Jesus is called The Word
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John 1:1, 14; 1 John 1:1
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Revelation 19:13
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The scriptures bear witness to Jesus
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John 5:39
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Revelation 11:3
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The Spirit bears witness to Jesus
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John 10:25; 15:26; 1 John 5:6
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Revelation 11:3
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Jesus bears witness to the truth
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John 3:11, 32, 33; 18:37
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Revelation 1:2, 5; 19:10; 20:4
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They that keep his commandments
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1 John 2:3; 2:4; 3:22, 24; 5:2, 3; 2 John 1:6
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Revelation 12:17; 14:12; 22:14
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He that loveth his life shall lose it
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John 12:25
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Revelation 12:11
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The world deceived
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2 John 1:7
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Revelation 12:9
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He that overcometh
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1 John 5:4, 5
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Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21; 21:7
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Those who do not abide in Christ are cast into a fire
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John 15:6
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Revelation 11:5; 20:15; 21:8
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Judgment of the world
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John 5:22, 27; 9:39; 12:31; 16:8, 11; 1 John 4:17
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Revelation 14:7; 16:7; 18:10
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They that pierced him shall see him
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John 19:34, 37
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Revelation 1:7
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Eating flesh, drinking blood
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John 6:53-56
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Revelation 16:6; 17:16; 19:18
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Jesus gives the hidden manna
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John 6:51, 58
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Revelation 2:17
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As I received of my Father
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John 10:18; 2 John 1:4
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Revelation 2:27
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Jesus is the temple
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John 2:21
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Revelation 21:22
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The love of God
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John 3:16; 1 John 4:9; 5:3
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Revelation 1:5
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The water of life
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John 4:14, 15
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Revelation 21:6; 22:1, 17
|
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
:cloud9: Thanks for your imput Doug.....you bring some interesting things to the table...... :thumbsup:
There is a great variety in the ways in which the beast makes war with the two witnesses of God, the subject of the prophecy of Revelation 11:1-13.
We have already noticed the doctrine of preterism, which was promoted by Jesuit priest Luis Alcazar (1554-1613), and Hugo Grotius (1583-1645), both of whom wished to remove the sting from the interpretations of the Protestant Reformers, who identified the papacy with the Antichrist. They claimed that the prophecies of Revelation were mostly fulfilled in the first century, and depicted the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.
In the Historicist view, the 1,260 days mentioned in Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 were equated with 1,260 years, which were thought to correspond in some way with the time during which the papacy was dominant in Europe. Numerous theories were advanced about what date and event to use for the start date, and even about whether the years were solar, or should they instead be taken as "prophetic" 360 day years? Another idea was that the 1,260 years might be the period during which the Jews were to remain scattered, and at the end of it, they would be settled in their own land, and convert to the Christian faith.
An example of the Historicist approach is the work of Johann Albrecht Bengel (1687-1752). A German Lutheran theologian and scholar, Bengel developed
Heilsgeschichte, a theology of salvation history. The table below is from:
Bengelius's introduction to his exposition of the Apocalypse: with his preface to that work and the greatest part of the conclusion of it, and also his marginal notes on the text, which are a summary of the whole exposition
Johann Albrecht Bengel
Translated by John Robertson, 1757
Link (http://books.google.com/books?id=Ru82AAAAMAAJ)
AD 1058, Sept. 2nd Wed.
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The two wings of the great Eagle given to the Woman.
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AD 1077, Sept. 1st Frid.
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The rising of the beast out of the sea, in the person of Gregory VII.
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AD 1143, Sept. 25, Sat.
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The beginning of the 42 months of the power of the beast, in Celestine II.
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AD 1810, May 21, Sat.
(June 1, N. S.)
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The end of the 42 months, and of the number of the beast. Soon after, when the vials are poured out, the beast is not, but Babylon reigns as Queen.
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AD 1832, Oct. 14, Mon.
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The rising of the beast out of the Abyss. After one hour, viz,
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AD 1832, Oct.22, Tuesd.
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The 10 kings give their royal power to the beast.
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AD 1836, June 18, Sund.
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The destruction of the beast. The end of the 3 1/2 times, &c.
|
In Bengel's scheme, a prophetic day was 1/2 year and about 8 days, or 190 + 20/21 days; a prophetic year was 190 + 20/21 natural years or 69570 days.
Commenting upon the failure of Bengel's predictions, Charles H. Spurgeon said:
This great author was rather too precise in his dates. The end of the forty-two months was settled for the 21st of May, 1810, and the destruction of the beast for June 18th, 1836. When so princely an expositor maunders in this fashion it should act as a caution to less able men.[Commenting a Commentaries p. 260. By Charles H. Spurgeon]
http://books.google.com/books?id=NOKOcvZBP9QC
Bengel's work influenced John Wesley of his own century.
Failed attempts at interpretation of prophecy, including Bengel's date-setting fiasco, tend to discredit the entire subject of Bible prophecy, and so are among the ways the Beast has waged war against the two witnesses, and killed them.
Another failed approach to interpretation of the prophecy is one which fails to interpret what is symbolic, or wrongly interprets. The prophecy of the two witnesses must be interpreted, as they are identified with:
- Two trees
- Two candlesticks
- Two human prophets
Why should any of the above be literal, while the other two are symbolic? If the trees are symbolic, surely so are the candlesticks and the prophets; and likewise, if
any of the above is symbolic, so are the other two.
The paragraph below is an example of the flawed interpretation of the prophecy of the two witnesses, by an ultradispensationalist, who identifies them as two humans with supernatual powers.
How thankful we should be that the evangel committed to us is in utmost contrast to the testimony of the two witnesses! They call down physical judgments. We invoke spiritual blessings. They spread havoc and death. We dispense grace and life. They faithfully represent an indignant God, in the fury of His wrath. We are ambassadors of peace, heralding the amazing marvel of a suppliant God, Who refuses to be offended, Who is conciliated to all mankind, and Who prays all to be conciliated to Him. The still small voice of a praying God is a far greater marvel than the thunders of His wrath.A. E. Knoch (http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GeneralExpositions/TheTwoWitnesses.html)
Copyright © Concordant Publishing Concern
Knoch's approach, IMO, is a fine example of how the "waters" are turned to "blood" by the two witnesses; what is really a wonderful prophecy of the role of the Spirit of Christ and the scriptures, is seen by him as depicting "an indignant God," and so his approach
blinds him to the "water" of life, and the "
hidden manna" contained in that prophecy.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Below are two paragraphs from a book by Joseph Galloway, published in 1809, in which he suggests that the two witnesses of Revelation 11 represent the Old and New Testaments. The book is:
Brief commentaries upon such parts of the Revelation and other prophecies as immediately refer to the present times: With the prophetic, or, anticipated history of the church of Rome. To which is added A pill for the infidel and athiest
by Joseph Galloway
London, 1809
Link (http://books.google.com/books?id=zBQ3AAAAMAAJ)
p. 56
Where then shall we find in the world the "two witnesses" here introduced by the angel? For they must be of great antiquity; they must be only two in number, and these two must have but one "mouth," and be the witnesses of God, or of his revealed word and will to mankind. They are, I will venture to pronounce, and can be nothing else, but the Two Testaments, the Old and New. These, two holy prophets and oracles of God, alone, among all the variety of things upon the earth, can satisfy and fulfil the figurative description of the text. The angel speaks of them as in being at the time, and well known to the prophet; and why they have not been so to the commentators on the prophecies, is difficult to conceive, as they must have had them constantly in view. Indeed the very name of these books, or witnesses, affords an unerring clue to the discovery. A testament, from the plain definition and common acceptation of the word, is a writing, or record, which testifies and bears witness to the mind and will of man. So that which reveals, and bears witness to the word and will of God, is certainly his witness: and it is worthy of observation, that they are called, by the voice of truth, coming from God, "my two witnesses." It may next be asked, what two witnesses has God been graciously pleased, in the course of his providence, to send into this fallen world, to reveal and attest to mankind his divine word, but the Old and New Testament? Is it not by these two sacred and infallible records, one of which is, by many ages, the most ancient in the world? a record, a part of which has, in a most miraculous manner, during the course of 3400 years, been preserved amidst the waste of all-devouring time, the ravages of wars, the wrecks of books, and even during the dark ages of Pagan sensuality, of Mohamedan ignorance, and Papal superstition. I ask, is it not by these two holy records alone, that God has been pleased to reveal and attest his righteous and immaculate will to mankind? Have not these "two witnesses" alone given the clearest testimony of his omnipotence, his infinite wisdom, his justice and mercy? And have not all those divine and exalted attributes of his glory and perfection, been demonstrated by innumerable events foretold and recorded by those two sacred "witnesses," even during the Mohamedan and Papal apostacy and darkness?
But had the names of these "two witnesses" been more mysterious, there are other marks given by the angel, which clearly support this exposition of the text: they are represented, by the angel, as having "one mouth;" to denote that they both, where rightly understood, testify the same sacred truths. And we know that the two Testaments, in this sense, have but one mouth; that is, form one regular, consistent, uniform history of the will and providence of God: and when not perverted, agree in attesting to mankind the same great and important truths, in which their happiness here, as well as hereafter, is concerned. These "two witnesses" were, moreover, to continue to "prophesy in sackcloth" 1260 years, during the persecutions and depressions of the Gospel of Christ, by the Gentiles of "the court which is without the temple;" and there have been no two men who have lived so long; nor any true prophets since John wrote his Revelation, except those two sacred and living oracles, which have and do yet foretel all the important truths needful for mankind to know, that have happened in the world, and shall happen to the end of it; and therefore have rendered all other prophets, and every other kind of holy witness, unnecessary.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
It doesn't fit.
Revelation 11
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. (I think Noah's ark is actually showing a connection to this . . .but I'll hit on that one later.) They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.
Due to my current time restraint, I'll make this short . . .for me . . .
The gentile's trampling for 42 months . . .there a geneology in the New Testament . . .it lists 42 generations leading up to the coming of Jesus. Verse 3 fits Jesus nature to a "t". Verse 4 also fits the son and the spirit continually present at the throne of the Father. Verse 5 . . .does not revelation speak clearly to the fact that a fiery sword protrudes out of the mouth of Jesus as he overcomes all the armies that have risen up against his people?
And when we get to the point to where the voice calls out "come up here" and they "resurrect" and "ascend" to the Father . . .how can we not see that this is referring to Christ? It fits "every" piece of this.
Below is a table showing some of the many interpretations that have been proposed for the 1,260 days, the time of the ministry of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3, and when the woman flees to the wilderness in Revelation 12:6.
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Proposed dates for the 1,260 days
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Interpretation
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Joachim of Fiore (1130-1202)
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1 BC - 1260 AD
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The period between the advent of Christ and 1260 AD
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Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino in 1250 AD
|
1 BC - 1260 AD
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Gerardo published a work called the Introduction to the Eternal Gospel, which was an interpretation and summary of Joachim's three major works. Gerardo's Introduction claimed that the third status would arrive in A.D. 1260, signaling the total abrogation of the church of the second status, including the substitution of Joachim's writing for the Old and New Testaments. Gerardo's work created such a scandal that a papal commission was held at Anagni under Alexander IV in A.D. 1255, which condemned the Introduction, but not Joachim himself. Gerardo was imprisoned for life.
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St. Clement of Alexandria (c.150- 215)
|
|
The period of the destruction of Jerusalem
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Walter Brute in 1391
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135 AD - 1395 AD
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Brute said the 1,260 and 1,290 days of prophecy were so many years, to be reckoned from the Hadrian desolation of Jerusalem to his own day
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David Chytreus in 1571
|
412 AD - 1672 AD
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Chytreus suggested the 1,260 years began with the overthrow of the Western Roman Empire by Alaric in 412
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David Pareus (1548-1622)
|
606 AD - 1866 AD
|
Pareus claimed the 1,260 years began with the decree of Phocas in 606.
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Joseph Mede (1586-1638)
|
476 AD - 1736 AD
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Mede equated seven time prophecies which contained time spans of 3 1/2 years, 1260 days, or 42 months (Dan.7:25; 12:7; Rev.11:2,3; 12:6,14; 13:5). These, he explained must apply to the antichristian power of papacy.
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Drue Cressener (1642-1718)
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606 AD - 1848 AD
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An English clergyman and interpreter of the Apocalypse, Cressener in 1690 said the years of the period should be taken as 360 days each, and shortened the period of 1,260 days to 1,242. Thus he proposed 1848 as the critical year in the downfall of the papacy.
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Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
|
|
Newton proposed 360 days for each prophetic year and 30 days to a prophetic month. Thus, unlike Mede, he disassociated prophetic time from solar or lunar calendars; "he specified the time vaguely, at about the time of the invasion of the Barbarous nations and their erecting several Kingdoms in the Roman Empire," and "it being certain that 1200 of the 1260 years are run out already."
|
Johan Albrecht Bengel (1687-1752)
|
1143 AD - 1810 AD
|
In Bengel's scheme, a prophetic day was 1/2 year and about 8 days, or 190 + 20/21 days; a prophetic year was 190 + 20/21 natural years or 69570 days.
|
John Gill (1697-1771)
|
606 AD - 1866 AD
|
Gill maintained that the date when the Bishop of Rome was made Universal Bishop, or Pope, should be considered that of the decree of the Emperor Phocas in 606; "if to this we add 1,260 the expiration of his reign will fall in the year 1866, so that he may have upwards of a hundred and twenty years yet to continue; but of this we cannot be certain; however, the conjecture is not improbable."
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Bishop Thomas Newton (1704-1782)
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533 AD - 1793 AD;
606 AD - 1866 AD;
727 AD - 1987 AD
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For the 1260 day/year period Newton suggested at least three starting points. The earliest is with Justinian's degree (533 AD), the second Phocas' degree in 606 (this had the additional benefit of being also the beginning of Mohammed's rise to power), and the third the early 8th century when the pope was established as a "temporal prince."
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Joseph Galloway, 1809
|
606 AD - 1866 AD
|
Galloway wrote:
If, then, we date the rise of the two apostacies in the year 606, which has just been proved to be the true time, the witnesses have now prophesied in 'sackcloth' 1195 years of the 1260 so that there are only 65 years to come, before they will have 'finished their testimony,' according to our present mode of calculation. But if the prophet calculated by synchronical years, or only 360 days to a year, according to the Jewish mode of computation, when he wrote, as some commentators suppose, and which indeed, is most probable, there remain only 48 years before the witnesses shall have finished their testimony in sackcloth.
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George Stanley Faber (1773-1854)
|
606 AD - 1866 AD
|
Faber wrote:
Some have supposed, that the 1260 years are already expired, and that their expiration took place about the commencement of the French revolution. As yet I have seen no sufficient reasons to induce me to assent to this opinion. According to the most natural interpretation of Dan. xii. 6, 7, the interpretation adopted by Mr. Mede and other eminent expositors, the interpretation which best harmonizes with parallel prophecies, the Jews will begin to be restored so soon as the three times and a half shall have expired. But the Jews have not begun to be restored. Therefore we scarcely seem warranted in supposing that the three times and a half have expired. However this may be, I have little doubt that the wonderful shaking of nations during these last eighteen years is preparatory to the return and conversion of God's chosen people, and to the final overthrow of his congregated enemies.
|
William Miller (1782-1849)
|
538 AD - 1798 AD
|
Miller claimed that the one thousand two hundred and sixty years of the papacy were to be reckoned from A. D. 538, by virtue of the decree of Justinian. This decree, though issued A. D. 533, did not go into full effect until 538, when the enemies of the Catholics in Rome were subjugated by Belisarius, a general of Justinian.
Miller adopted the Protestant view, that they represent years. There is probably no point respecting which Protestant commentators have been more agreed than this. Faber, Prideaux, Mede, Clarke, Scott, the two Newtons, Wesley, and almost every expositor of note, have considered this a settled question. Indeed, so universal has been this interpretation of these periods that Professor Stuart says: 'IT IS A SINGULAR FACT THAT THE GREAT MASS OF INTERPRETERS in the English and American world have, for many years, been wont to understand the days designated in Daniel and the Apocalypse as the representatives or symbols of years. I found it difficult to trace the origin of this GENERAL, I might say ALMOST UNIVERSAL, CUSTOM.'
|
Edward Irving (1792-1834)
|
533 AD - 1793 AD
|
"Irving was the first expositor who ventured to connect particular predictions with the events of the French Revolution. According to him, the Papacy commenced in A.D. 533, which, with the 1260 prophetic days or years of its continuance, brings Popery down to the year 1793, the year when the French Revolution commenced, at which date Mr. Irving considers the reign of Popery to have been superseded by that of Infidelity, and the judgments upon Babylon to have commenced."
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James Stuart Russell (1816-1895)
|
67 AD - 70 AD
|
Russell has been called the father of full preterism; he saw the second coming as a past event that took place in conjunction with the Roman destruction of the Jewish temple in AD 70.
The following is from Russell's "The Parousia:"
The passage which we are now considering throws light also upon our Lord's prediction in Luke xxi. 24: 'And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.' Our Lord, it is to be observed, is here speaking of the siege and capture of Jerusalem, the very theme of the apocalyptic vision. ... But if so, what are we to understand by 'the times of the Gentiles' in our Saviour's prediction? It has been generally supposed that this expression refers to some mystic period of unknown duration, extending, it may be, over centuries and aeons, and still rolling on its uncompleted course. But if this non-natural interpretation of words is to be applied to Scripture, it is difficult to see what use there is in specifying any periods of time at all. Surely, it is much more respectful to the Word of God to understand its language as having some definite meaning. What, then, if 'forty and two months' should really mean forty-two months, and nothing more? The times of the Gentiles can only mean the time during which Jerusalem is in their occupation. That time is distinctly specified in the Apocalypse as forty-two months. Now this is a period repeatedly spoken of in this book under different designations. It is the 'thousand two hundred and sixty days' of the next verse, and the 'time, times and half a time' of chap. xii. 14, that is to say, three years and a half. Now it is evident that such a space of time in the history of nations would be an insignificant point; but for a tumultuous and lawless rabble to domineer over a great city for such a period would be something portentous and terrible. The occupation of such a city by an armed mob is not likely to continue over ages and centuries: it is an abnormal state of things which must speedily terminate. Now this is exactly what happened in the last days of Jerusalem. During the three years and an half which represent with sufficient accuracy the duration of the Jewish war, Jerusalem was actually in the hands and under the feet of a horde of ruffians, whom their own countryman describes as 'slaves, and the very dregs of society, the spurious and polluted spawn of the nation.' The last fatal struggle may be said to have begun when Vespasian was sent by Nero, at the head of sixty thousand men, to put down the rebellion. This was early in the year A.D. 67, and in August A.D.70 the city and the temple were a heap of smoking ashes.
|
Joseph Franklin ("Judge") Rutherford (1856-1942)
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1914 AD - 1918 AD
|
Rutherford said the "three and a half times" is the 1,260 day period that began in 1914, and ended in mid-1918, when the Watch Tower Society's preaching work was suspended. This was immediately followed by the 1,290 days, which ran to 1922. The 1,335 day period (1922-1926) then ensued--the period of the celebrated conventions.
|
James Burton Coffman (1905-2006)
|
|
Coffman identified the "time, times and a half" with "the whole Christian dispensation" in his commentary on Daniel.
|
Ronald Weinland
|
2008 AD - 2012 AD
|
Weinland said the 1,260 days began in 2008, when he declared himself to be one of the two witnesses, and his wife Laura the other one.
|
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Quote from: Nathan on September 16, 2010, 07:00:51 PM
It doesn't fit.
Revelation 11
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. (I think Noah's ark is actually showing a connection to this . . .but I'll hit on that one later.) They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.
Due to my current time restraint, I'll make this short . . .for me . . .
The gentile's trampling for 42 months . . .there a geneology in the New Testament . . .it lists 42 generations leading up to the coming of Jesus. Verse 3 fits Jesus nature to a "t". Verse 4 also fits the son and the spirit continually present at the throne of the Father. Verse 5 . . .does not revelation speak clearly to the fact that a fiery sword protrudes out of the mouth of Jesus as he overcomes all the armies that have risen up against his people?
And when we get to the point to where the voice calls out "come up here" and they "resurrect" and "ascend" to the Father . . .how can we not see that this is referring to Christ? It fits "every" piece of this.
Note that the 1,260 days is the time when the woman flees to the wilderness, which period therefore corresponds to the ministry of the two witnesses. Most Christians have understood this woman to represent the church.
The 42 months is equivalent, and it represents the period in which the beast is in power, who makes war with the saints and overcomes them.
The woman flees to the wilderness after the man-child is taken up to heaven, and to God's throne, Revelation 12:6. So the 1,260 days is hardly the earthly ministry of Jesus. But, there is a connection with the ministry of Jesus, IMO; together, the three and a half years of the ministry of Jesus (perhaps including that of John the Baptist) plus the 1,260 days make a prophetic "week" or "seven times." Thus, together they fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, that Jesus will confirm the covenant with many for one week. The last half-week is symbolic of the entire age of the church, and is represented symbolically as a
time, times and a half, 1,260 days, 42 months, etc. The covenant that Christ confirms refers to the New Covenant, and the gospel, which he confirms by sending his Spirit.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Except in Daniel, there's no 2000 year gap that takes place in the middle of the week. It's continual. And it comes to it's fulness three and a half years later in the book of Acts. Remember, the 70 weeks were specifically geared toward the Jewish people. But they rejected him There was a defining moment when this was completed.
The first martyr. There's a reason why that's written the way that it was. When Stephen was about to be stoned . . .there was a great nashing of teeth . .that's a term aimed at religious rage due to rejecting the light of truth. But at that defining moment, Stephen saw Jesus "standing" next to the Father . .not sitting, but standing. there is a passage that speaks about Jesus being seated at the right hand of the Father before this incident, but yet Stephen sees him "standing". And then later on, Paul states that he is once again seated . . .I believe there's a reason Stephen saw him standing with others saw him seated.
I believe Jesus stood because the fulfillment of time set aside for the Jews had run it's course and Jesus was identifying that. From that moment on, Scripture turns it's attention toward Paul's ministry to the Gentiles.
There's no break .. . the church put that there. At least that's how I see it today.
Quote from: Nathan on September 17, 2010, 02:23:07 AM
Except in Daniel, there's no 2000 year gap that takes place in the middle of the week. It's continual.
Right. There are no gaps, the 70 weeks are continuous, as
time has no gaps!
QuoteAnd it comes to it's fulness three and a half years later in the book of Acts.
But, there's no mention of it. Daniel's prophecy is not mentioned at all.
QuoteRemember, the 70 weeks were specifically geared toward the Jewish people. But they rejected him There was a defining moment when this was completed.
The apostle Peter tells us otherwise.
1 Peter 1:9-12
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. What prophet wrote about the
"manner of time" of the fulfillment of God's purpose?
Here is a clue; where do you find the phrase "time, times and a half"? Might
that expression have something to do with
time?
Daniel's people are called the "saints." They are the ones whose names are "written in the book." [Daniel 12:1]
This must be the book where the names of the saints who are to be raised up in the resurrection are written. Clearly, the same book that Paul refers to in Philippians 4:3, and which is mentioned several times in Revelation. Jesus maintains it. [Revelation 3:5]
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Or was Paul referring to a different book, do you think?
QuoteThe first martyr. There's a reason why that's written the way that it was. When Stephen was about to be stoned . . .there was a great nashing of teeth . .that's a term aimed at religious rage due to rejecting the light of truth. But at that defining moment, Stephen saw Jesus "standing" next to the Father . .not sitting, but standing. there is a passage that speaks about Jesus being seated at the right hand of the Father before this incident, but yet Stephen sees him "standing". And then later on, Paul states that he is once again seated . . .I believe there's a reason Stephen saw him standing with others saw him seated.
It is probably recorded to show that Jesus will stand up, whenever one of his saints who is about to die as a martyr. It's not likely He would remain
seated in moments like that!
The reason we know there is no gap in the 70 weeks, is because nothing in the New Testament indicates that there is such a gap. It would need to be revealed, as according to Amos, God would not have done it, without revealing it to his prophets.
Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. And the same thing applies to the idea that the 70 weeks ended in the first century, as alleged by the preterists. For such a thing to occur, without the apostles noticing, is IMO unbelievable.
QuoteI believe Jesus stood because the fulfillment of time set aside for the Jews had run it's course and Jesus was identifying that. From that moment on, Scripture turns it's attention toward Paul's ministry to the Gentiles.
There's no break .. . the church put that there. At least that's how I see it today.
Paul's ministry was among Jews at first. His missionary work among the Gentiles began several years later. Acts 11:28 tells about a period of famine, which must have occurred later than 41 AD.
Tiberius Claudius was Roman Emperor from 41 to 54 AD.
Paul was sent out two chapters later, Acts 13:2-3. They continued to go to the Jews first.
You are right about there being no gap; I agree 100%. :Sparkletooth:
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Well, that's about the "only" thing we're in agreement with then, most of what you've posted in all of this is another man's opinion that you have either adopted or accepted as "truth" which is your right, but I continue to reserve my right to see it otherwise.
Quote from: Nathan on September 17, 2010, 03:49:07 PM
Well, that's about the "only" thing we're in agreement with then, most of what you've posted in all of this is another man's opinion that you have either adopted or accepted as "truth" which is your right, but I continue to reserve my right to see it otherwise.
I must agree with you
Writing about the Gentiles who trample the holy city for 42 months, in Revelation 11:2, preterist James Stuart Russell said,
What, then, if 'forty and two months' should really mean forty-two months, and nothing more? The times of the Gentiles can only mean the time during which Jerusalem is in their occupation. That time is distinctly specified in the Apocalypse as forty-two months. Now this is a period repeatedly spoken of in this book under different designations. It is the 'thousand two hundred and sixty days' of the next verse, and the 'time, times and half a time' of chap. xii. 14, that is to say, three years and a half. Now it is evident that such a space of time in the history of nations would be an insignificant point; but for a tumultuous and lawless rabble to domineer over a great city for such a period would be something portentous and terrible. The occupation of such a city by an armed mob is not likely to continue over ages and centuries: it is an abnormal state of things which must speedily terminate.
[The Parousia (http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Parousia_Russell.rtf)]
Preterists such as Russell are evidently blind to the fact that the holy city, especially in Revelation, represents the church. They follow the doctrines of the German critics of the nineteenth century, most of whom were preterists; Johann Gottfried Eichorn, for example, denied that the Bible contains any predictive prophecy.
When John said 42 months, in Revelation 11:2, and 1,260 days in the next verse, it is obvious that the number of days in 42 real or lunar months is not 1,260, but about 1,240, so Russell's belief that the 42 months are literal, and equal to 1,260 days is flawed. And if he says the months are calendar months rather than lunar months, then 42 such months is about 1,278 days, not 1,260 days, so again, he is promoting error.
Russell failed to understand the significance of the 1,260 days, which is not meant literally, as John plainly showed by his use of 42 months together with the number of 1,260 days, which prove they are not "real" or literal months. The 1,260 days and 40 months and "time, times and a half" all represent the same symbolic period, the entire age of the church, and the last half week of the 70 weeks, and together with the period of Jesus' ministry these are a "week" in which Jesus confirms his covenant with his saints, and the gospel is preached in the world.
Like John, Daniel also provided two numbers, 1,290 days and 1,335 days, to represent the "time, times and a half," in Daniel 12:11 & 12, and there is no literal three and a half years that fits those numbers; therefore, they are symbolic. A literal three and a half years cannot have two or three different numbers of days, but a symbolic three and a half years can!
And so, Russell's idea was merely another in a long list of failed interpretations of prophecy that confirm the words of Daniel when he wrote, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." [Daniel 12:10]
IMO, the followers of Russell and their doctrines are among the "tumultuous and lawless rabble" of Gentiles who trample the holy city, which is the church, made desolate by false teachings such as "fool preterism." [They dislike the term "hyperpreterism," so I suggest as an alternative, "fool preterism;" they have made fools of many Christians who were looking for an alternative to dispensationalism.]
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
I don't know about all of that but I do believe this is very much connected to with what Jabcat has been relaying lately in that there "is" a literal understanding and spiritual levels of understanding as well. For me, the literal understanding is for those to whom it was literally written to . . .2000 years ago. For the rest of us, I repeat 1 Corinthians 2 all over again . . .it's all spiritual that is "revealed" through the Father's voice in our heart rather than construed through the reasoning of our minds.
Aug. 5, 2010 re-reply.
Has anyone been given to believe that the two witness's could be Water and Blood?
1Jn 5:6 This one is he who did come through water and blood--Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,
1Jn 5:7 because three are who are testifying1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.
Its just my :2c: again
Quote from: Nathan on September 17, 2010, 06:01:00 PM
I don't know about all of that but I do believe this is very much connected to with what Jabcat has been relaying lately in that there "is" a literal understanding and spiritual levels of understanding as well. For me, the literal understanding is for those to whom it was literally written to . . .2000 years ago. For the rest of us, I repeat 1 Corinthians 2 all over again . . .it's all spiritual that is "revealed" through the Father's voice in our heart rather than construed through the reasoning of our minds.
If a high school teacher were to ask a student to figure out how many days there are in three years and a half, and if the answer that was provided was 1,260, how could that answer possibly be correct?
Calculating by years, the answer is 1,278.
Using observations of the moon, and lunar months, the answer is 1,240 or 1,270.
Using a calendar, the answer is 1,278 or 1,279.
None is close to the 1,260 days that John gave, which of course, is one of the reasons he chose that number.
Literally, to say 42 months = 1,260 days is a
lie, both today, and in the first century when John wrote his prophecy. As Paul said, "the letter killeth; the Spirit giveth life." So, there is no way any
"literal" fulfillment of the prophecy of the two witnesses could occur in the first century.
The theory that the prophecy applied to the first century was promoted by rationalist German critics, whose theories have contributed to the war of the beast from the pit against the two witnesses, [Revelation 11:7] which has resulted in them being figuratively
killed, and their dead bodies being exposed in the street; the two witnesses being symbols of the Spirit and the scriptures.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
I'll put out this one last comment on this then I'm done with the thread, it's getting to argumentative.
Perhaps the prophecy of 1260 isn't based on our current calendar. 1260 divided by 30 (days) is 42. 42 (months) divided by 12 (months) equals 3 1/2 LITERAL years. Their calander only had 30 days in every month.
Either way, I'll not take up any more of your time on this matter.
Quote from: Nathan on September 17, 2010, 07:16:35 PM
I'll put out this one last comment on this then I'm done with the thread, it's getting to argumentative.
Perhaps the prophecy of 1260 isn't based on our current calendar. 1260 divided by 30 (days) is 42. 42 (months) divided by 12 (months) equals 3 1/2 LITERAL years. Their calander only had 30 days in every month.
Either way, I'll not take up any more of your time on this matter.
Of course, in the Jewish reckoning, months were lunar months, and while a single month is about 30 days, a multiple of months, such as 42 months, is not 42 x 30 days, but a smaller number, about 1,240 days, as a month is not exactly 30 days. The Jewish new year was determined by observation of the moon's phases at least until the Metonic cycle (used for determining the years with 13 months) was adopted in the 4th century AD. And so in the Hebrew calendar the years were either about 354 days or about 384 days; it is simply
incorrect to say that "the Jewish calander had 30 days in every month" although dispensationalists such as Sir Robert Anderson have propagated this misleading belief.
See: CALENDAR, in the Jewish Encyclopedia. (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=43&letter=C)
The preterist idea that the 1,260 days and 42 months of Revelation 11 were literal, and were fulfilled in the first century AD, which they seem to have borrowed from the German rationalists of the 19th century, misses the spiritual meaning in those numbers that John used in the prophecies of Revelation 11, 12, & 13, and so they are blinded to these prophecies.
Some of the Reformers were much more enlightened. While many of them said the 1260 days represent years, and some rashly predicted the end of the papacy when the 1,260 years had expired, George Gifford said the numbers were not meant literally, but instead, "a number certain is put for an uncertain."
Below is part of Gifford's discussion of the 1,260 days from one of his sermons (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/GR/Gifford.php?page=Gifford21.html) on the two witnesses.
Then next here is shewed how long the great AntiChrist and his rout of profane Gentiles, possessing the outer court of the Temple, shall tread down the holy city. The time is set to be two and forty months: and that is three years and a half: for twelve months to a year, three times twelve is thirty and six, and then six months for the half year, do make up two and forty. From this place the Papists do draw one argument, by which they would prove that the Pope is not Antichrist. After this manner they reason: The Pope hath governed the Church many years: the great Antichrist shall reign but two and forty months, which is three years and a half: (for they do rightly confess that the Gentiles which possess the outer court of the temple, are the rout of AntiChrist) therefore say they, it is impossible that the Pope should be AntiChrist. For answer unto this: let it be demanded, doth not Saint John in this prophecy speak mystically, even as the Prophets did in old time? they cannot deny this. And then demand further, is not every day put for a year in the seventy weeks which Daniel the Prophet speaketh of? so every week is seven years. And why may not every month here then be put for thirty years? which then do amount unto 1,260 years. Which indeed is a long time in comparison of three years & an half: but compared with the eternity of Christ's kingdom, it is as nothing. And that is one cause why the Lord numbereth it by days & months which quickly run out. But then here will arise another scruple: If the kingdom of AntiChrist shall continue twelve hundred and sixty years, we must either say that the Bishop of Rome was Antichrist more than a thousand years past, yea above thirteen hundred, if we take his reign to be no longer than until he was disclosed by the Gospel: or else we must say he hath yet long to continue. Let not this trouble us, seeing it is most clear and out of all controversy, that in this book, a number certain is put for an uncertain.Sermons vpon the whole booke of the Reuelation
by George Gifford.
Richard Field and Felix Kinston, 1599.
Set forth by George Giffard, Preacher of the Word at Mauldin in Essex.
The idea that the 1260 days simply denote an unknown period was useful, but it does not convey the real meaning of these numbers IMO; that meaning is in their relation to the prophecy of the 70 weeks, and in particular, the final, 70th week, which is the week in which Christ confirms the covenant with many. The 1260 days pictures a
symbolic half-week, and
"a time, times, and a half" which is three and a half "times," and so one-half of "seven times." The first half-week was the ministry of Jesus, and the last half of the period is the entire age of the church, represented by the 1,260 days, which is the present age in which Christ continues to confirm his covenant with his saints.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
:cloud9: I may or may not agree with them, but I enjoy reading other's commentaries. This view of the 7 years is interesting to me, and I could see it being that. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2010, 07:56:07 PM
:cloud9: I may or may not agree with them, but I enjoy reading other's commentaries. This view of the 7 years is interesting to me, and I could see it being that. Blessings....
An interesting view of the prophecy of the two witnesses was published by James Brocard in a commentary on Revelation, written in the sixteenth century during a period of religious warfare in France. He applies the prophecy to the situation that then existed. He identified the two witnesses, if I understood him correctly, with the Spirit of Prophecy, and those People who have continued in the word of the Gospel. He wrote in Latin, but a translation in English was made soon after his work appeared, and published in 1582.
The Reuelation of S. Ihon reueled or a paraphrase opening by conference of time and place such things as are both necessary, and profitable for the tyme present: writen in Latine by Iames Brocard, and Englished by Iames Sanford Gent., Imprinted at London: In Fleetestreate neare vnto S. Dunstones Church by Thomas Marshe, 1582.I have prepared a pdf file which contains his interpretation of the prophecy of the two witnesses, available here (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/dload/Brocard2w.pdf).
Another interpretation by John Napier in
A plaine discovery of the whole Revelation of S. John, published in 1611, identified the two witnesses as the Old and the New Testaments.
A summary of his view is available here. (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/GR/GRS-index.php?page=Napier.html)
My own view on it is a combination of the two; they are the scriptures, as Napier said, and the Spirit of Christ, as Brocard said; so IMO, they each had a bit of the truth!
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
:cloud9: Yes, they usually do "each" have a piece of the truth. I think that's why the Israelites were told to round off the corners of the field in the harvest, leaving the corners for the poor (poor in spirit) to glean. As we have allowed Him to make us poor to the world, but rich in Spirit, we are being allowed to glean what the harvester's left behind. :winkgrin: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2010, 08:56:39 PM
:cloud9: Yes, they usually do "each" have a piece of the truth. I think that's why the Israelites were told to round off the corners of the field in the harvest, leaving the corners for the poor (poor in spirit) to glean. As we have allowed Him to make us poor to the world, but rich in Spirit, we are being allowed to glean what the harvester's left behind. :winkgrin: Blessings....
Jes, Jesus said the poor in spirit are the ones who inherit the kingdom of heaven; those who hunger and thirst will be filled.
Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.There is much to be learned in the writings of saints in past ages; they had the spirit of Christ in them; the two witnesses have always been with the church, as James Brocard said in the quote below from his discussion of the two witnesses, which are called two olive trees and two candlesticks.
As it has been said that Spirits stand before the throne; as it has been said that Christ standeth on the right hand of the Father; as it has been said in Zechariah chap. 4, that the two olive branches stand before the ruler of the whole earth; so here I understand the Holy Ghost and the son of God. And because Christ cometh into his members, and the Holy Ghost is poured into them, and worketh in them, the ministers of the Gospel, and of the word of Prophecy are called olive trees and candlesticks and they are called two olive trees and two candlesticks, because Prophecy is injoined in them with the Gospel, and the Gospel with Prophecy, as it was in the Apostles, and because that which is Christ in them, is the Holy Ghost, and that which is the Holy Ghost, is Christ. The these two offices were in the Apostles, and to these two Peter in the beginning of the third chapter of his second epistle willeth the faithful to look; they have been hitherto in the Church, and shall be hereafter, most of all; and now in the greater light we all are willed to receive them. Which also is signified to us in fulfilling the Prophecy of these two witnesses, which are here set forth. Forasmuch as we in this time shall all be Witnesses of the truth of the Gospel, and of the truth of God's word of Prophecy.Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
In the table below, the prophecies in Daniel 12:7, and Revelation 10:5-7, of angels who raise their hand or hands to heaven and sware an oath, are compared. Several interesting points of correspondence can be seen. The prophecy of the two witnesses is inserted between John's account of the angel, and the 7th trumpet to which he refers, and so elements of the prophecy of the two witnesses are included in the comparison.
|
Daniel 12
|
Revelation 10
|
Angel's clothing
|
clothed in linen
|
clothed with a cloud
|
Angel standing
|
yes
|
yes
|
Angel's location
|
upon the waters of the river
|
upon the sea and upon the earth
|
Angel's hand raised to heaven
|
yes
|
yes
|
Angel swares by "him that liveth for ever"
|
yes
|
yes
|
Duration of the previous period
|
a time, times, and an half
|
42 months, 1,260 days
|
Nature of desolation
|
Antichrist plants the tabernacles of his palace in the glorious holy mountain; the power of the holy people is scattered
|
The two witnesses are overcome by the beast which ascends from the bottomless pit, and killed; their corpses then lie exposed in the street
|
Saints shine
|
Saints who turn many to righteousness shine as the stars for ever
|
The two witnesses revive and ascend to heaven
|
Resurrection
|
Many raised up to everlasting life; those whose names are written in the book are delivered
|
When the seventh angel begins to sound, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ, who reigns for ever and ever. The saints are rewarded; the time of judgment
|
Completion
|
All these things are finished
|
The mystery of God is finished, as declared to the prophets
|
The table suggests that perhaps there is a connection between the saints shining as the stars, and the two witnesses' ascent to heaven.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Some things are temporal, while other things will never pass away.
"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."
peacemaker
"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."
Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.
Well, I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.
A point of comparison between Daniel 12 and Revelation 10, which I omit from the table in my previous post, is that there seem to be two individuals involved, in both prophecies. In Daniel, one of them asked the question, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" The answer was given by the other person.
In Revelation 10, John hears a voice from heaven, which tells him not to write what he had heard in the seven thunders, and also, to take the little book which was open in the hand of the angel who was standing on the earth and the sea.
So, the presence of two messengers, is yet another way in which the two prophecies correspond, besides those listed in the table.
When John writes, in Revelation 11:3, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses..."
Who is the one speaking?
This refers back to the "angel" introduced in Revelation 10:1, from whom John received the little book, which he had eaten. Several things suggest the angel described here is Christ.
He is clothed with a cloud; Jesus was concealed by a cloud, when he ascended to heaven.
Acts 1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
The cloud possibly alludes to the pillar of cloud, that led the Israelites in the wilderness. [Exodus 13:21-22]
He had a rainbow upon his head, which resembles the description John gave of Jesus in heaven.
Revelation 4:3
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
His face was as it were the sun; again, like the description John gave of Jesus.
Revelation 1:16
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Also see Matthew 17:2.
His feet were as pillars of fire, perhaps alluding to the pillar of fire, which was with the Israelites in the wilderness at night.
His voice was like a lion; John previously identifies with Christ with a lion.
Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
He stood upon the earth and sea, indicating his authority.
Psalm 24:1
The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Several commentators note that the angel standing upon the earth and the sea seems to refer to Christ. I suggest he is Christ, and the two witnesses are his witnesses. Jesus identified the Spirit, and the scriptures, as two things that would "testify" of him. [John 5:39; 15:26]
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2010, 06:29:56 AM
"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."
Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.
Well, I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.
:cloud9: I don't want to offend anyone, but this mindset that was taught by the churches, is in fact, a thief because it puts the focus on dying and not on living. Death is not a friend, it is an enemy and a thief, and it robs God of a vessel to dwell in. Death is not defeated by dying, it's defeated by NOT DYING.
While there is no condemnation if we end up going the way of the grave (because God is the ultimate decider of our fate), but our hope is Christ in us, and that is a LIVING HOPE, the hope for glory, ie. a body that can walk thru walls and not die. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 19, 2010, 06:20:23 PM
:cloud9: I don't want to offend anyone, but this mindset that was taught by the churches, is in fact, a thief because it puts the focus on dying and not on living. Death is not a friend, it is an enemy and a thief, and it robs God of a vessel to dwell in. Death is not defeated by dying, it's defeated by NOT DYING.
While there is no condemnation if we end up going the way of the grave (because God is the ultimate decider of our fate), but our hope is Christ in us, and that is a LIVING HOPE, the hope for glory, ie. a body that can walk thru walls and not die. My :2c: Blessings.....
Every journey begins with a first step and every step is its own journey.
Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning of a new one, if you will.
No offense taken, for life is eternal; having no beginning or end.
I do not adhere to the traditions of men, who see death as being more universal than life.
Whereas, everyone dies, but not everyone lives?
The significance of life is not in the destination, rather, it is in the journey itself.
"Catching the breath of life with joy." :cloud9:
Do you hear a second witness, Amen.
peacemaker
Quote from: Cardinal on September 19, 2010, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2010, 06:29:56 AM
"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."
Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.
Well, I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.
:cloud9: I don't want to offend anyone, but this mindset that was taught by the churches, is in fact, a thief because it puts the focus on dying and not on living. Death is not a friend, it is an enemy and a thief, and it robs God of a vessel to dwell in. Death is not defeated by dying, it's defeated by NOT DYING.
While there is no condemnation if we end up going the way of the grave (because God is the ultimate decider of our fate), but our hope is Christ in us, and that is a LIVING HOPE, the hope for glory, ie. a body that can walk thru walls and not die. My :2c: Blessings.....
Great post, but I see the point of people who want to be positive in the face of death and try to regard death in a positive light, even though death is an enemy. :2c:
Quote from: thinktank on September 19, 2010, 10:40:58 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 19, 2010, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2010, 06:29:56 AM
"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."
Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.
Well, I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.
:cloud9: I don't want to offend anyone, but this mindset that was taught by the churches, is in fact, a thief because it puts the focus on dying and not on living. Death is not a friend, it is an enemy and a thief, and it robs God of a vessel to dwell in. Death is not defeated by dying, it's defeated by NOT DYING.
While there is no condemnation if we end up going the way of the grave (because God is the ultimate decider of our fate), but our hope is Christ in us, and that is a LIVING HOPE, the hope for glory, ie. a body that can walk thru walls and not die. My :2c: Blessings.....
Great post, but I see the point of people who want to be positive in the face of death and try to regard death in a positive light, even though death is an enemy. :2c:
God may have "unusual" plans for some, I haven't studied that a lot. I believe at Jesus' glorious appearing, any believer alive and remaining will certainly attain that - in the twinkling of an eye.
However, IMO, even for most believers who have gone and will go by way of the grave, Jesus still has conquered death and has given life immortal to us - on the other side. Death and the grave are no longer the victor. Jesus is.
Paul said if he lived, it was for the benefit of Christ - he was sharing the Savior and bringing in believers; if he died, it would be a blessing to him personally, a "gain" - because he would be in the Presence of His Savior. So death would be a door to him "getting on with it" - no more trials, no more tears. That's my understanding. Blessings, James.
Quote from: thinktank on September 19, 2010, 10:40:58 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 19, 2010, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2010, 06:29:56 AM
"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."
Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.
Well, I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.
:cloud9: I don't want to offend anyone, but this mindset that was taught by the churches, is in fact, a thief because it puts the focus on dying and not on living. Death is not a friend, it is an enemy and a thief, and it robs God of a vessel to dwell in. Death is not defeated by dying, it's defeated by NOT DYING.
While there is no condemnation if we end up going the way of the grave (because God is the ultimate decider of our fate), but our hope is Christ in us, and that is a LIVING HOPE, the hope for glory, ie. a body that can walk thru walls and not die. My :2c: Blessings.....
Great post, but I see the point of people who want to be positive in the face of death and try to regard death in a positive light, even though death is an enemy. :2c:
:cloud9: Which is why I said there is no condemnation in it, BUT we are to resist the enemy and he will flee. The problem has been that since Adam died, nearly all men have accepted death, and either we believe it is an enemy or......
There is an angel of death, I have come up against it more than once in it's attack on me and on others, and I'm not going to lay down and die for it, if by the GRACE of God I can resist it. That's my point. Had I thought that way, I'd be dead many times over by now, merely from listening to doctors. :grave:
I just want to present that there is another hope for men to seek the Lord for. Blessings....
I had this posted, removed it while looking for a video (you'll get more out of it if you move the screen down so you aren't distracted by the animation at bottom of link screen :sigh:).
Card, God has sustained you through a lot. IMO, your living "is Christ", as Paul said. You will be rewarded one way or another. :thumbsup:
Anyway, here's the post -
I guess we need to work on getting back to the OP. :mblush: Or if we can't, I can split this off.
A pertinent thought though; my wife is right now at the hospital with her mother, who is dying of cancer. They have just apparently found that it has spread to her brain. She is a strong believer, who has fought this thing in her body of flesh for the past 11 years. If God raises her up in this life, it will be to her benefit and His glory. When He's used her for all the benefit He knows is best, then I believe the sooner she can draw her final breath in her decaying clay, and wake in the Presence of the Lord she loves so much, will be a blessing to her and to those who are watching her suffer. She's lived a good life, helped many people, and run a good race. To be in His Presence will mean she has finished the course - and will indeed be her gain. :2c:
Good people underneath the sea of grief
Some get up and walk away
Some will find ultimate relief
It's sad but true
And while we pray for one more heartbeat
The real comfort is with you
You know pain has little mercy
And suffering's no respecter of age, of race or position
I know every prayer gets answered
But the hardest one to pray is slow to come
Oh Lord, not mine, but Thy will be done
Home Free, eventually
At the ultimate healing we will be Home Free
Home Free, oh I've got a feeling
At the ultimate healing
We will be Home Free - c Wayne Watson
Listen here;
http://www.rhapsody.com/player?type=undefined&id=tra.17527685&remote=undefined&page=undefined&pageregion=undefined&guid=undefined&from=undefined&__pcode=
Quote from: jabcat on September 20, 2010, 12:26:01 AM
I guess we need to work on getting back to the OP. :mblush:
Sure enjoyed that song and music, it went extremely well with the screen savers on my computer, thanks! :thumbsup:
Of course, you are correct. :mblush:
My apologies to you, Whitewings, Doug, and everyone else. :mblush:
Quote from: jabcat on September 20, 2010, 12:26:01 AM
I guess we need to work on getting back to the OP. :mblush:
Good point.
In Daniel's prophecy, in chapter 11, it is the king of the north who invades the holy land, and sets up the tabernacles of his palace in "the glorious holy mountain," which represents the church; in the prophecy of the two witnesses in Revelation 11, the two witnesses are overcome and killed by the beast from the bottomless pit.
So, this naturally leads to the question, is the beast from the pit, who is the serpent, and who is bound for 1,000 years in Revelation 20:3, the
abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of?
The fact that he is bound, and cast into the bottomless pit, and in Revelation 11 he begins to ascend from the pit, identifies the beast with Satan.
If the answer is affirmative, then the things that
kill the two witnesses, which are many, are the "abomination of desolation." Satan is pictured as a dragon with seven heads in Revelation 12.
The table comparing Revelation 10:5-7 with Daniel 12:7 is updated below.
|
Daniel 12
|
Revelation 10
|
two speakers
|
yes
|
yes
|
Angel's clothing
|
clothed in linen
|
clothed with a cloud
|
Angel standing
|
yes
|
yes
|
Angel's location
|
upon the waters of the river
|
upon the sea and upon the earth
|
Angel's hand raised to heaven
|
yes
|
yes
|
Angel swares by "him that liveth for ever"
|
yes
|
yes
|
Duration of the previous period
|
a time, times, and an half
|
42 months, 1,260 days
|
Nature of desolation
|
Antichrist plants the tabernacles of his palace in the glorious holy mountain; the power of the holy people is scattered
|
The two witnesses are overcome by the beast which ascends from the bottomless pit, and killed; their corpses then lie exposed in the street
|
identity of desolator
|
the king of the north
|
the beast from the bottomless pit, Satan
|
Saints shine
|
Saints who turn many to righteousness shine as the stars for ever
|
The two witnesses revive and ascend to heaven
|
Resurrection
|
Many raised up to everlasting life; those whose names are written in the book are delivered
|
When the seventh angel begins to sound, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ, who reigns for ever and ever. The saints are rewarded; the time of judgment
|
Completion
|
All these things are finished
|
The mystery of God is finished, as declared to the prophets
|
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg discussed the numbers given in Revelation 11:2 & 3, the 42 months and the 1,260 days, in the quotation below from his Commentary.
The Revelation of St John: expounded for those who search the Scriptures, Volume 1. By Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg; T. & T. Clark, 1851
http://books.google.com/books?id=PN5JAAAAMAAJ
p. 396
The two and forty months contain only an apparent determination of time; as, indeed, all numbers in the Apocalypse have only an ideal signification; they belong not so properly to the chronological, as to the symbolical forum. The common signature of the dominion of the world over the church in the Revelation, resting on the prophecies of Daniel, (comp. at ch. xii. 6, xiii. 5), is the three and a half, in which we have only to think of the broken seven, the signature of the church. So that the meaning is here conveyed, that however the world may lift itself up, however it may proudly triumph, it can never attain to anything complete and lasting. These three and a half years return again in different forms: a time, two times, and an half time, ch. xii. 14, forty and two months, here and in ch. xiii. 5, 1260 days in ch. xii. 6. In the number of the beast also in ch. xiii. 18, the same thing substantially holds as in these numbers. We have here before us a representation, which does not bring into view some particular period of time in the world's history, but the whole course of it, only that towards the end every thing realizes itself in a more perfect manner. Wherever the world is found overflowing the church, from that of which John himself saw the commencement, to the last in ch. xx. 7--9, of which we have now the beginning before our eyes, there the substance of the prophecy always verifies itself anew, there the obligation still remains to those who are affected by the evil, to take it as the ground of consolation and warning to their hearts. ... The thought in this prophecy was in other respects quite correctly apprehended by the older expositors. Thus on the expression, "the holy city shall be trodden down," Bossuet remarks, "Christians shall be under the sway of the unbelievers; but though the weak shall fall, the church shall continue in strength. This is the first point which St John apprehends in the persecutions: the church continually abiding."
Hmm...
Why would he not have connected the three and a half years, or the "broken seven," with the ministry of Jesus, and thus identified the two periods added together with the 70th week of Daniel? Daniel said "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..." [Daniel 9:27] Christ confirmed the covenant, in his earthly ministry, and continues to do so today. The destruction of the temple in 70 AD caused the end of sacrifices; that happened "in the midst of the week," which of course is fatal to both preterism and dispensationalism. It seems that it is called a "week," perhaps because it was foreshadowed by the 7 years that Jacob labored, for his bride Rachel.
Evidently, Hengstenberg and other commentators failed to notice how this helps to explain the significance of the "time, times and a half" and the equivalent periods. He was right though, IMO, that it represents the whole course of the church's history, and is not limited to 1,260 literal years as others had claimed.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
In previous posts I have presented a table comparing the prophecies of Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 10:5-7, which both feature angels who raise their right hand to heaven and swear by him who lives for ever. These are not the only references to such a scene in scripture, as there is a similar one depicted in the verses below:
Deuteronomy 32:39-43
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
Here the Lord identifies himself as the One who lives for ever, and lifts up his hand to heaven.
This suggests a connection between the prophecies of Revelation 10-11, and Deuteronomy 32. The context supports this. Chapter 31 tells about Moses completing writing the book of the law, which he refers to as a "witness."
Deuteronomy 31:24-30
24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?
28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.
The law is called a "witness" and Deuteronomy 32:41 refers to God's sword, which Paul identifies with the scriptures in Ephesians 6:17, and as also seen in Hebrews 4:12.
The foes of Christ and the saints are not flesh and blood; the sword of God is spiritual, and John showed that it proceeds from the mouth of Christ; Revelation 1:16; 2:16; 19:15, 21.
The sword or word of God may be identified with one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11; it wars against the flawed imaginations of man, wrong interpretations, delusions. Christ makes war with his enemies; Revelation 12:7. Both this verse, and Daniel 12:1, refer to Michael, which is another link between these prophecies.
Deuteronomy 32:39-43 and 31:24-30 seem to be connected with the swearing angel in Revelation chapter 10, and the prophecy about the two witnesses in Revelation 11, supporting the idea that one of the two witnesses represents the scriptures.
And the mention of the ark of the covenant in Revelation 11:19, that is seen in the temple in heaven, also supports this. The ark is mentioned in Deuteronomy 32:26, where Moses commands the Levites to put the book of the law in it.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
cloud9 Which is why I said there is no condemnation in it, BUT we are to resist the enemy and he will flee. The problem has been that since Adam died, nearly all men have accepted death, and either we believe it is an enemy or......
There is an angel of death, I have come up against it more than once in it's attack on me and on others, and I'm not going to lay down and die for it, if by the GRACE of God I can resist it. That's my point. Had I thought that way, I'd be dead many times over by now, merely from listening to doctors. grave
I just want to present that there is another hope for men to seek the Lord for. Blessings...
cardinal
Amen
Quote from: thinktank on September 21, 2010, 09:52:25 PM
cloud9 Which is why I said there is no condemnation in it, BUT we are to resist the enemy and he will flee. The problem has been that since Adam died, nearly all men have accepted death, and either we believe it is an enemy or......
There is an angel of death, I have come up against it more than once in it's attack on me and on others, and I'm not going to lay down and die for it, if by the GRACE of God I can resist it. That's my point. Had I thought that way, I'd be dead many times over by now, merely from listening to doctors. grave
I just want to present that there is another hope for men to seek the Lord for. Blessings...
cardinal
Amen
Is this in the wrong post?
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 19, 2010, 06:29:56 AM
"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."
Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.
Well, I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.
Is this in the wrong post?
micah
yes, the root has been exposed :mblush:
I still lean to an understanding derived from what Jesus said of "two witnesses." It was Jesus, what He said as witness to the truth and the miracles His Father did confirming His word. Each of us is a witness and "God with us," Immanuel, is the other witness. In other words, each and everyone of us, on that basis, can say, "Just Jesus and me: we're the two witnesses."
Quote from: reFORMer on September 22, 2010, 05:35:16 AM
I still lean to an understanding derived from what Jesus said of "two witnesses." It was Jesus, what He said as witness to the truth and the miracles His Father did confirming His word. Each of us is a witness and "God with us," Immanuel, is the other witness. In other words, each and everyone of us, on that basis, can say, "Just Jesus and me: we're the two witnesses."
I think Jesus referred to the Spirit that was in him as a witness; it was the Spirit that accomplished the works.
Jesus said,
John 5:31-32
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.The Spirit he sends to the church, is one of the two witnesses; the other one, IMO, is the scriptures.
John 5:33-37
Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. Jesus did many miracles, which works were a witness to the disciples, and people of that age, but we have the witness of the past 19 centuries of history, and of all the saints who have lived in the past, and today, we can see how prophecies are being fulfilled, if we understand them correctly; the prophecy of the two witnesses is one example; the Spirit, and the scriptures, are treated in the media, like the two corpses lying in the street; figuratively of course; it is quite common for comedians, song writers, journalists, film makers, etc., to ridicule the Bible, and people of faith; newsmen usually depict Christianity in the worst possible light; immorality by Catholic priests, or well known evangelists, gets headlines, etc.
Bibles are still best sellers, and are kept around, though they are not read, by most, and when they are read, they are often misinterpreted; the superficial, literal view is preferred, so people are misled. But that is what the scriptures foretold.
How does your idea fit the details of the prophecy? How do "Jesus and me" (or you) fulfill the prophecy about preventing rain, turning waters to blood, smiting the world with plagues? And how about two corpses lying in the street for three days and a half and then reviving?
I don't think Jesus is one of the witnesses himself, as He is the one who the witnesses belong to; and who they bear witness of; they are
his two witnesses. In reply #157 I addressed the question, Who spoke the words, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, ..." in Revelation 11:3, and presented several reasons why it is Christ, as many commentators have said.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Quote from: Doug on September 22, 2010, 06:40:51 AM
How does your idea fit the details of the prophecy? How do "Jesus and me" (or you) fulfill the prophecy about preventing rain, turning waters to blood, smiting the world with plagues? And how about two corpses lying in the street for three days and a half and then reviving?
Are you telling me that you never got the flies I sent and the boils I poured out?
Quote from: reFORMer on September 22, 2010, 07:04:57 AM
Are you telling me that you never got the flies I sent and the boils I poured out?
:eek:
Quote from: reFORMer on September 22, 2010, 05:35:16 AM
I still lean to an understanding derived from what Jesus said of "two witnesses." It was Jesus, what He said as witness to the truth and the miracles His Father did confirming His word. Each of us is a witness and "God with us," Immanuel, is the other witness. In other words, each and everyone of us, on that basis, can say, "Just Jesus and me: we're the two witnesses."
That sounds pretty good to me.
"Yet in this law, also, of yours it is written that the testimony of two men is true. I am the One testifying concerning Myself, and the Father Who sends Me is testifying concerning Me." (John 817-18; Concordant Literal Translation)
Specially with The Book of Revelation, I don't see why we should be limited to the text on one hand and a sort of meta-text column beside it which is considered "The True Interpretation." Sounds like followers of David Koresh. How about Israel and the Eclessia for the corporate witnesses and each of our selves with our Father for individual witnesses and Spirit and Word for symbolic witnesses, etc.? I think we need to keep freeing ourselves from dogmatizing what we think God really meant to say and exalt the value of the text itself instead. (Can you hear, in memory at the castle, the great Doctor's words, "It's alive! It's alive!"?)
(I know I keep repeating some things because I do it on pupose.)
:cloud9: Could this be why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father, because each WITNESS each other? :winkgrin:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 22, 2010, 03:08:53 PM
:cloud9: Could this be why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father, because each WITNESS each other? :winkgrin:
How did the Father witness to Jesus?
By a voice from heaven: Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22; John 12:28.
By miracles, such as healing, raising the dead, etc.
John 10:25
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. By raising Jesus from the tombActs 3:14-15
But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.By sending the Spirit of truthJohn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
:cloud9: Exactly. And it's the same way He's going to "witness" us, and does witness us. Signs and wonders follow them that believe. In the OT it was mentioned somewhere that God was their rereward, which is an old English term for "rearguard". Angels go before us, the Christ is with us, and God Himself is behind us. He has us hedged in as His vineyard. Awesome thought, eh? Blessings...
Quote from: reFORMer on September 22, 2010, 08:23:50 AM
"Yet in this law, also, of yours it is written that the testimony of two men is true. I am the One testifying concerning Myself, and the Father Who sends Me is testifying concerning Me." (John 817-18; Concordant Literal Translation)
Of course Jesus testified of himself, as his death is remembered when the saints observe the Lord's supper; Jesus said; "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." [Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25]
But the two witnesses are something else. They bear
witness against the world, and of the church too. The scriptures, and the Spirit, are two things Jesus himself said would testify of him. [John 5:39; 15:26]
Quote from: reFORMer on September 22, 2010, 08:23:50 AM
Specially with The Book of Revelation, I don't see why we should be limited to the text on one hand and a sort of meta-text column beside it which is considered "The True Interpretation." Sounds like followers of David Koresh. How about Israel and the Eclessia for the corporate witnesses and each of our selves with our Father for individual witnesses and Spirit and Word for symbolic witnesses, etc.? I think we need to keep freeing ourselves from dogmatizing what we think God really meant to say and exalt the value of the text itself instead. (Can you hear, in memory at the castle, the great Doctor's words, "It's alive! It's alive!"?)
(I know I keep repeating some things because I do it on pupose.)
The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are not the church and the Jewish state. But, IMO the said two witnesses do give witness
about those things; the restoring of the Jewish state, for example, is the healing of the "deadly wound" of one of the heads of the beast in Revelation 13:3. The ancient province of Judea was part of the Roman empire which, in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, received a "deadly wound." So the formation of the Jewish state in 1948, and events since then, confirm the "
witness" of the scriptures, which said the deadly wound would be healed. The name "Israel" applied to it, is one of the names of blasphemy in the heads of the beast, IMO.
Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. To understand the prophecies is the "hidden manna" that Jesus promised those who overcome. [Revelation 2:17]
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
In an earlier post I presented a quote from E. W. Hengstenberg's commentary on Revelation, refuting the rationalist and preterist views of the temple of Revelation 11:1-2, that John was told to measure, which said the prophecy refers to the Jerusalem temple, before it was destroyed in the first century.
Another theory, which was taking hold when Hengstenberg wrote, was that embraced by the followers of John N. Darby, and many in the Plymouth Brethren sect, which said the temple was a literal one, that would be built in Jerusalem in the future. Hengstenberg refutes that opinion in the quote below.
The Revelation of St John: expounded for those who search the Scriptures, Volume 1
Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg
T. & T. Clark, 1851
Link (http://books.google.com/books?&id=PN5JAAAAMAAJ)
p. 408
We shall now take a glance at the views which have been adopted of the preceding section, different from ours.
According to some the temple and the holy city must not be the symbol of the church; but the vision must refer to the external temple, and the literal Jerusalem; and, indeed, to the fates of the restored temple and the Jerusalem of the last times. But no trace whatever is to be found here of Jerusalem and the temple being in ruins at the time of the vision nor any trace of a rebuilding to take place in the future, either here or in any other part of the book. But prophecy can never so entirely separate itself from the ground of the present, to influence which is always its more immediate object, and to which, therefore, it must constantly raise a bridge. On this also rests all certainty of exposition as to the future. And that the means should be provided for such certainty is a necessary consequence of the divine nature of prophecy. A truly divine prophecy cannot possibly swim in the air; nor can the church be left to mere guesswork in the exposition of Scripture, which has been given to her amidst the darkness. Then, this literal method of exposition belongs to an entire chain of representations in regard to the kingdom of God, which has recently indeed, and especially in England, obtained extensive support, where in particular the society for the conversion of the Jews is pervaded by it. We cannot, however, regard it as agreeable to Scripture. It is a kind of revival of the Jewish-Christian tendency in the ancient church-- the idea that the converted Jews in it are to form a sort of spiritual nobility in the church, and that for them as a separate, distinguished, and most illustrious part of it, there are destined quite peculiar honours and wonderful performances. We may almost say that this view is the worm in the noble fruit of the Jewish mission, the success of which is now rather poor. It nourishes in the converted the natural pride, the extirpation of which should be one of the first objects of a true spiritual activity. It misleads the converted to form a sort of peculiar brotherhood among themselves, and prevents them from properly incorporating themselves with the general society of the Christian church, in which alone the means of recovery can be found for so many wounds as they have necessarily brought along with them from the corrupt social life of their nation. Let us here also look back to the soundness of the older church, not out of reverence to it, but because it has Scripture rightly understood on its side, and cease to change Jewish Christians into Christian Jews. The result of a free and enlightened investigation of Scripture in reference to this point is expressed by the excellent Vitringa in these words: "This distinction is entirely taken away under the new economy. For, as the heathen, who were converted to Christ, were grafted in to the Jewish olive-tree, and have taken on them, as it were, the person and form of the Jews; so shall the Jews, who in the latter days shall be converted to Christ, be grafted into that church of the heathen, or rather become incorporated with the mystical and spiritual Jews, and without any difference possess along with them the same condition in the kingdom of Christ. All are one in Christ." He remarks also specially in respect to the Revelation, "I would particularly draw attention to this, that throughout the whole of this book no separate mention is made of the Jewish as distinguished from the Gentile Christians, and this on the clear and obvious ground, that under the new economy all distinction of races in matters of religion is taken away. Never in any part of the Apocalypse do prophecies occur in respect to the Jews, in so far as these are opposed in matters of religion to "the heathen." Since one cannot forbear to assent to what Vitringa says in regard to the Revelation, the view sustains on this ground alone a heavy blow. For, we are thus driven generally out of the territory of the New Testament, there being scarcely any passages elsewhere which one could even attempt to bring in support of the view in question. The declarations in the epistle to the Romans are rather unfavourable to this view. They speak much of the blessing, which the conversion of the Jews shall bring to the church of the future, but nothing whatever of a new church from the Jews, of the restoration of Jerusalem, the rebuilding of the temple, nor generally of a return of the old beggarly elements, which have been completely swept away by Christ and his blood, placing all nations on a footing. The question is thus thrown entirely back upon the Old Testament, and so, the position maintained on the other side becomes a very difficult, or rather a quite hopeless one. We must leave it to the Jews, to draw from the Old Testament alone articles of faith and expectations of the future. We Christians apply in the first instance to the New Testament, and if we find anything in the Old Testament, which seems to oppose it, or to go beyond it, this only serves to indicate our want of a proper understanding. What appears there to favour the modern Judaistic view, rests merely on this want as to its foundation. If any one is ready to conclude, that wherever Israel is spoken of, the Jews are meant, he can certainly prove much; but little good will be done by such a light and superficial mode of expounding the Old Testament Scriptures. What the Spirit has spoken must be spiritually understood, as the sayings everywhere apply: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear; he that reads, let him understand; here is the mind that hath wisdom. Even the promises given to the patriarchs do not respect the children of Israel as opposed to believers from among the heathen; but comprehend along with them such as might be ingrafted into the olive tree, Rom. xi. 17, 24. (See the investigations on the promises made to the patriarchs in the Christol. III. p. 50, ss.) An olive tree, a people of God stands from first to last--an Israel out of which the false seed is excluded, and into which believers from among the heathen were adopted.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Doug,
The link you just published is so wonderful I'm becoming delirious.
The 20 volumes of Critical and exegetical commentary on the New Testament by Meyer, Heinrich August Wilhelm, 1800-1873. Edinburgh. T & T Clark, 1881-1891.
It has been said by those in Academia who should know that it is possibly the best Commentary series on the Greek language. Previously I have seen a used hardcopy for $400.00, though whether available now and for how much I don't know. It wouldn't be as useful as a digitized edition anyway. At $1.95 per volume...
I expect there will be much to rejoice about for KirtasBooks.com
(Am I dreaming?)
Quote from: reFORMer on September 23, 2010, 06:57:16 AM
Doug,
The link you just published is so wonderful I'm becoming delirious.
The 20 volumes of Critical and exegetical commentary on the New Testament by Meyer, Heinrich August Wilhelm, 1800-1873. Edinburgh. T & T Clark, 1881-1891.
It has been said by those in Academia who should know that it is possibly the best Commentary series on the Greek language. Previously I have seen a used hardcopy for $400.00, though whether available now and for how much I don't know. It wouldn't be as useful as a digitized edition anyway. At $1.95 per volume...
I expect there will be much to rejoice about for KirtasBooks.com
(Am I dreaming?)
AFIK the link I posted is not part of the series you refer to.
http://books.google.com/books?&id=PN5JAAAAMAAJ (http://books.google.com/books?&id=PN5JAAAAMAAJ)
Volume 11 of the series you cite is:
Handbook to the Revelation of John
Dr. Friedrich. Düsterdieck,
Tr. by Henry E. Jacobs, D.D.
Critical and exegetical commentary on the New Testament, Volume 11
Heinrich August Wilhelm Meyer
Funk & Wagnalls, 1887
http://books.google.com/books?id=Y0NDAAAAYAAJ (http://books.google.com/books?id=Y0NDAAAAYAAJ)
The author claims that the apostle John did not write the book, and promotes the error of preterism in the work. He says of Revelation 11, "the whole chapter is to be referred to the impending destruction of the city." [p. 312] The translator states in the Preface:
This volume is offered as a help to such study. Its author, Dr. Fr. Düsterdieck, is well known as a writer on Apologetics, and still continues to publish exegetical papers in Luthardt's Zeitschrift für kirchliche Wissenschaften and elsewhere. He has furnished us with perhaps the most important commentary on this book which we thus far possess. His spirit is reverent and devout, his judgment generally calm and discriminating, his investigations wide and exhaustive. Although we concede so much, we are by no means ready to indorse his opinions on all the subjects presented, and in several of his long discussions we regard his judgment, which is ordinarily trustworthy, as seriously at fault. In revulsion from the assumptions of the Tübingen school, which conceded the apostolic origin of the Book of Revelation, and then from that basis endeavored to prove, because of dissimilarity of style, etc., the non Johannean origin of the Gospel ascribed to St. John, our author has taken the directly opposite position, and denied the apostolic origin of Revelation,-- with what success, the reader must judge. Compelled in translation to examine the argument very closely, it has seemed to us at every step unsatisfactory, forced, and unworthy of the high character of this work. It must not be inferred, however, that, in denying that the Apostle John wrote the book, he also denies its inspiration: this he maintains, although with limitations which many of our readers will doubtless regret, as may be seen on pp. 84 sqq. The author belongs to the praeterist class of interpreters, and argues that the time of composition was prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.I have already posted on the question of whether John was the author of the Apocalypse in this thread. Also see:
Did John write the Apocalypse? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/dload/JWA.pdf)Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Quote from: Doug on September 22, 2010, 11:59:30 PM
In an earlier post I presented a quote from E. W. Hengstenberg's commentary on Revelation, refuting the rationalist and preterist views of the temple of Revelation 11:1-2, that John was told to measure, which said the prophecy refers to the Jerusalem temple, before it was destroyed in the first century.
I thought I had posted some of Hengstenberg's comments on the rationalistic and preterist view of Revelation 11, but maybe not.
They can be found at the link below, which is an 11 page pdf file:
Link (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/dload/Heng-R11.pdf)
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
John Bale (1495-1563), the Reformer, understood the holy city of Revelation 11:2, which is trampled by the Gentiles, to be the Christian Church, and the 42 months as symbolic. On this verse he said, in his book The Image of Both Churches, which was the first commentary on Revelation to be written in English, published in 1547,
And the holy city (of whom glorious things are spoken) they shall tread under foot for the space of 42 months. Not the earthly Jerusalem is this city, builded of men, and made holy by the outward observations and ceremonies of the Jews as many expositors have fantasied. For of that (as Christ prophecies) is not one stone standing upon another. But this city is the sure building of God, grounded upon the strong foundation of the Apostles and prophets, even upon the hard rock stone Jesus Christ. This is the pleasant possession, the wholesome household, the sure hold, and the delectable vineyard of the Lord of Hosts. This is the living generation of them which feareth, loveth, and seeketh their Lord God in faith, spirit, and truth, and not in outward shadows. These are the children of promise, the true offspring of Abraham, the chosen of Israel, and the kingdom of the holy ghost. Pure, clean, and holy hath Christ made this city, by none other thing but the only shedding of his precious blood.
This city tread they underfoot, that keepeth down the truth of the gospel, that persecutes, and fleeth God's people for it, that defeateth his word for their own traditions, that bringeth in the Jewish ceremonies, the gentiles' superstitions, pagan customs and heathen usages, poking men with impossible burdens of false worshippings for their own filthy lucre and anauntage. Not withstanding thus must they do still by the sufferance of God, till the 42 months to be finished, which is not else but the time, times, and the half time, or the thousand, two hundred and sixty days, in that God shall shorten the time for his chosens' sake. Thus after saint Paul also, before the Lord's coming, there must be a departing.
This refers to the apostasy, and the critical scholars, dispensationalists, and preterists all departed in later years from the spiritual interpretations of the prophecies of Revelation that were suggested by Bale and the other Reformers. In his comments on Revelation 12:6, Bale identified (correctly, IMO) the 1,260 days with "the time of the Gospel preaching from Christ's ascension to the end of the world." He wrote:
The numbered days here are none other but the afore written time of the two witnesses, the time of Elias' preaching, the time of John's preaching, the time of Christ's preaching, or the time of the Gospel preaching from Christ's ascension to the end of the world. That is the very time of the feeding of his church. And not open is this feeding here, but secret in the wilderness among a sort unknown to the world, having the poverty of the spirit without having anointing, or hypocrites' apparel. And not only hath the Lord thus nourished his people in this spiritual respect, but also in body. When they have been grievously handled, spoiled of their goods imprisoned, and exiled, graciously has he relieved them, and provided for them both solace and comfort at the hands of them whom they never saw before. So that the just has not felt himself forsaken, nor his children seeking bread.
In modern times, G. K. Beale, professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary, has returned to a view similar to that of Bale. He said,
John views the 'time, times and half a time' of Dan. 12:7 as the inter-advent age beginning from the time of Christ's resurrection and leading up to the final judgment. The identification of the threefold time formula from Daniel is deductable especially from 12:4-6, where the period begins from the time of Christ's ascension and refers to the church's time of suffering (so also 12.14). The same meaning is apparent for the equivalent phrase 'forty-two months' in 13.5, which describes the time of the beast's blasphemous and persecuting activities.
[G. K. Beale, John's Use of the Old Testament in Revelation. Sheffield Academic Press. 1999 p. 263.]
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Below is a portion of James Burton Coffman's Commentary on Revelation 11:1, which cites several references to other commentators who identify the temple referred to here as the saints or the church, rightly IMO.
Link (http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=011)
Measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship ...
"Temple of God" in this passage is impossible to accept as a reference to the literal Jewish temple in Jerusalem, called by the Son of God himself a "den of thieves and robbers." That an angel of God should have been concerned with having John measure that desolation (Matthew 23:38) is inconceivable. "It scarcely seems possible to doubt that temple here is used figuratively for the faithful portion of the Church of Christ." F8 In fact, the word here rendered temple is actually sanctuary (ASV margin), "The Greek word [nous] means the "holy house, where God dwells ... The use of [Greek: nous] here for the thing to be measured makes a literal interpretation of temple impossible." F9 "For John, the temple is the Christian Church, the people of God." F10 "This sanctuary symbolizes the true church." F11
If any distinction is to be made between the temple and the altar, which is doubtful, it would appear to be that the altar refers to the worship itself, the doctrine and practice of the faithful portion of the church; and the temple refers to the whole body of the church.
The measuring of the "worshippers" would naturally mean the evaluation of their lifestyle, character, and behaviour by the principles taught in the word of God. Thus the corporate body of the church, its doctrine, worship, and teaching, as well as the individual character and conduct of its members would all be included in the measuring. Significantly, there have been pronounced departures from the word of God in all of these categories by the historical church.
What is the purpose of the measuring? In the Old Testament, things were "measured" either for destruction or for preservation; but the identity of what is measured here suggests that "the measuring is a symbolical way of declaring its preservation, not from physical sufferings, but from spiritual danger." F12 Hendriksen likewise concurred in the judgment that the measuring here means "the setting apart from that which is profane." F13
This measuring by the word of God has the same purpose and effect as the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev. 7. The sealing there is done by the Holy Spirit; and the measuring here is by the word, i.e., those who are indwelt by the word (Colossians 3:16). The indwelling, whether by the Spirit, or by the word, being exactly the same either way. There is no difference. See my Commentary on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians, pp. 97-99. It is good to note that many scholars have seen this correspondence with the sealing. "This corresponds to the sealing in Rev. 7:1-8." F14 An important deduction from this is that:
The vision therefore declares that whatever corruptions invade the church, the kernel of the church will never be destroyed; but out of it there will arise those who will be true to the Master's commission. F15
This promise of protection for God's church, indicated in this vision by the "measuring," was made by the Lord himself in Matt. 28:18-20.
8. A. Plummer, The Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 22, Revelation (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1950), p. 288.
9: Charles H. Roberson, Studies in Revelation (Tyler, Texas: P. D. Wilmeth, P.O. Box 3305, 1957), p. 69.
10: William Barclay, The Revelation of John (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1976), p. 68.
11: William Hendriksen, More than Conquerors (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1956), p. 153.
12: Robert H. Mounce, Commentary on the New Testament Revelation (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1977), p. 219.
13: William Hendriksen, op. cit., p. 152.
14: Robert H. Mounce, op. cit., p. 219.
15: W. Boyd Carpenter, Ellicott's Bible Commentary, Vol. VIII (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1959), p. 584.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Why does John feature two witnesses, in his prophecy about measuring the temple?
A feature in the temple's design, that could correspond to two trees, and two candlesticks, in John's prophecy, were the two bronze pillars, that stood on either side of the porch of Solomon's temple. They were called Boaz and Jachin. These two pillars were 8.2 m high, and 1.8 m wide, with capitals 2.4 m high; the bowl-shaped capitals were wrapped with wreaths, decorated with two rows of 200 bronze pomegranates around each pillar, and each bowl was capped with lilies of bronze.
The ornamentation at the top of the pillars is thought by some scholars to have given them the appearance of enormous lamp stands. In the time of Hezekiah, they were overlaid with gold. [2 Kings 18:16]
Below are the scriptures describing the these two pillars.
1 Kings 7:13-22
13 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre.
14 He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.
15 For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece: and a line of twelve cubits did compass either of them about.
16 And he made two chapiters of molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars: the height of the one chapiter was five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter was five cubits:
17 And nets of checker work, and wreaths of chain work, for the chapiters which were upon the top of the pillars; seven for the one chapiter, and seven for the other chapiter.
18 And he made the pillars, and two rows round about upon the one network, to cover the chapiters that were upon the top, with pomegranates: and so did he for the other chapiter.
19 And the chapiters that were upon the top of the pillars were of lily work in the porch, four cubits.
20 And the chapiters upon the two pillars had pomegranates also above, over against the belly which was by the network: and the pomegranates were two hundred in rows round about upon the other chapiter.
21 And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof Jachin: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof Boaz.
22 And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars finished.
1 Kings 7:41-42
The two pillars, and the two bowls of the chapiters that were on the top of the two pillars; and the two networks, to cover the two bowls of the chapiters which were upon the top of the pillars;
And four hundred pomegranates for the two networks, even two rows of pomegranates for one network, to cover the two bowls of the chapiters that were upon the pillars;
2 Chronicles 4:13
And four hundred pomegranates on the two wreaths; two rows of pomegranates on each wreath, to cover the two pommels of the chapiters which were upon the pillars.
The role of pillars, and their role as witnesses, is indicated by two incidents in the life of Jacob, each involving setting up pillars. When Jacob fled from his brother Esau, he came to a place where he spent the night, and dreamed of a ladder reaching from the earth to heaven, and angels ascended and descended on it. God was at the top, and he promised Jacob that he would give him the land, and also that in his seed, all the families of the earth would be blessed. [Genesis 28:11-14]
Jacob called the place Bethel, meaning house of God, and set up the stone which he had used as a pillow stone as a pillar. [Genesis 28:16-22] Later, Jacob dug a well near this place.
The role of a pillar as a witness is explicit in another incident, when Jacob and his uncle Laban set up a heap of stones, and a pillar, as witnesses to a covenant between them both, which said that neither Jacob, nor Laban, would pass by that place to do any harm to the other.
Genesis 31:51-52
And Laban said to Jacob, Behold this heap, and behold this pillar, which I have cast betwixt me and thee:
This heap be witness, and this pillar be witness, that I will not pass over this heap to thee, and that thou shalt not pass over this heap and this pillar unto me, for harm.
During his ministry Jesus visited Jacob's well, where he met a woman of Samaria. In their conversation, Jesus told the woman that those who worship God would no longer go to Mount Gerizim, or to Jerusalem, but must worship God in spirit and in truth.
John 4:19-24
The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
In John's prophecy, which is about measuring the temple, the presence of the two pillars, Boaz and Jachin, at the porch of Solomon's temple, may be what the two witnesses in his prophecy allude to. They seem to represent the scriptures, and the spirit of God. The two things Jesus mentioned, spirit and truth, are like two pillars, or witnesses, set up at the entrance to the spiritual temple of God. For Jesus, the word of God in the scriptures is truth. [John 17:17] Entrance to the spiritual temple, and true worship, involves both of these.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Since when is The Revelation of Jesus Christ....John's prophecy?
:cloud9: Food for thought.....to he that overcometh, him will I make a PILLAR in my Father's temple. The network is similar, from what I've read, to the fretwork around the top of the mercy seat, which is like a crown.
Pomengranates speak of fruitfulness, and they have exactly 613 seeds, the number of the laws of Torah. Lillies speak of linen and righteousness, the garment of the saints. Note the comment about how the lillies toil not (righteousness that comes from faith not works). Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 01, 2010, 03:57:44 AM
:cloud9: Food for thought.....to he that overcometh, him will I make a PILLAR in my Father's temple.
Yes, the temple here can hardly be the one made with hands.
Paul referred to the church as a pillar.
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Many commentators relate this to pillars such as the ones in the pagan temples, like the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus. These pillars supported the upper walls, and beams holding up the roof. But Paul is speaking of a pillar as a
witness, I think, rather than one used for structural support. I think he was quite likely thinking of the pillar that Jacob set up, which he called "God's house."
Genesis 28:22
And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.Quote from: Cardinal on October 01, 2010, 03:57:44 AM
The network is similar, from what I've read, to the fretwork around the top of the mercy seat, which is like a crown.
Pomengranates speak of fruitfulness, and they have exactly 613 seeds, the number of the laws of Torah. Lillies speak of linen and righteousness, the garment of the saints. Note the comment about how the lillies toil not (righteousness that comes from faith not works). Blessings....
The belief that there are 613 seeds in a pomegranate is a Jewish tradition, but according to the site below, the number of seeds is actually quite variable.
http://www.aquaphoenix.com/misc/pomegranate/ (http://www.aquaphoenix.com/misc/pomegranate/)
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
very good bump
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 02, 2010, 01:37:00 AM
very good bump
OTOH, the average number of seeds in 206 pomegranates from 6 different countries was reported to be 613.
Hmm...
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Below is a list of interpreters who have attempted to explain and interpret the 42 months [Rev. 11:2], when the holy city is trampled by Gentiles, and the 1,260 days of the ministry of the two witnesses [Rev. 11:3]. These periods correspond to the 1,260 days of Rev. 12:6, and the time, times and a half, of Rev. 12:14, and the 42 months of the beast's reign. [Rev. 13:5] The dates proposed by each interpreter for the fulfillment of the period are also included.
Victorinus (died c. 303); a future three and a half years
Tyconius (died c. 390); 30-380 AD
Alcuin (c. 735-804); the whole age of the church
Benyamin ben Moses Nahawendi in c. 860 AD: the 1,335 days of Dan. 7:12 end 1012 AD
Joachim of Fiore (1130-1202); 1BC-1260 AD
Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino in 1250: 1BC-1260 AD
Pierre D'Olivi (1248-1298); 1,260 years ending in the 14th century
Walter Brute in 1391: 135-1395 AD
John Bale (1495-1563); the whole age of the church
John Foxe (1517-1587); 1,260 years from 2nd century King Lucius, when the gospel came to Britain
David Chytraeus (1530-1600); 412-1672 AD
William Fulke (1538-1589); the whole age of the church
George Gifford (c.1548-1600); the whole age of the church
David Pareus (1548-1622); 606-1866 AD
John Napier (1550-1617); 300-1560; 316-1576 AD
Thomas Brightman (1562-1607); 304-1546 AD
James Brocard (b. 1563); 313-1573 AD
Pierre Du Moulin (1568-1658); 429-1689 AD
Hugo Grotius (1583-1645); 67-70 AD
Joseph Mede (1586-1638); 476-1736 AD
Johann Heinrich Alsted (1588-1638); 362-1622 AD
Lodowicke Muggleton (1609-1698); 1652-1658 AD
Drue Cressener (1642-1718); 606-1848 AD
Isaac Newton (1642-1727); 800-2060 AD
William Whiston (1667-1752); 455-1715; 476-1736; 606-1866 AD
Johan Albrecht Bengel (1687-1752); 1143-1810 AD
John Gill (1697-1771); 606-1866 AD
Moses Lowman (1679-1752); 756-2016 AD
Bishop Thomas Newton (1704-1782); 533-1793; 606-1866; 727-1987 AD
Joseph Galloway (1731-1803); 606-1866 AD
David Simpson (1745-1799); 538-1798; 606-1866; 666-1926; 756-2016 AD
George Stanley Faber (1773-1854); 606-1866 AD
William Miller (1782-1849); 538-1798 AD
Edward Irving (1792-1834); 533-1793 AD
Samuel R. Maitland (1792-1866); a future three and a half years
Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg (1802-1869); the whole age of the church
James Stuart Russell (1816-1895); 67-70 AD
Robert Young (1822-1888); 67-70 AD
Joseph Augustus Seiss (1823-1904); a future three and a half years
Michael Paget Baxter (1834-1910); 537-1797; 1867-1871 AD
Henry Grattan Guinness (1835-1910); 533-1793; 606-1866 AD
Joseph Franklin "Judge" Rutherford (1856-1942); 1914-1918 AD
James Burton Coffman (1905-2006); the whole age of the church
Ernest L. Martin (1932-2002); 2020-2027 AD
Ronald Weinland (1949- ); 2008-2012 AD
Gregory K. Beale (1949- ); the whole age of the church
Further details on the above list are given in this file (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/dload/1260Days.pdf).
In the early ages of the church, the 42 months when the saints were oppressed by the beast [Rev. 13:5], the 1260 days [Rev. 11:3; 12:6], and the time, times and a half [Rev. 12:14], when the woman was fed by God in the wilderness, could easily be applied to the condition of the church, which was persecuted by the Roman Emperors, who were represented by the beast. Paul said the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness was for "our examples," 1 Cor. 10:6, 11.
Interest in the idea that the 1,260 days might represent years peaked in the 13th century, with the ideas of Joachim of Fiore. In later centuries, Protestant historicist interpreters applied the prophecy of the 42 months, when the beast overcomes the saints, to the Roman Catholic Church; they allowed an ever growing gap between the apostolic age, and the beginning of the period of apostasy, and the 1,260 days. During that time, it is implied the saints were not fed by God, and were not nourished spiritually in a place "prepared by God." [Rev. 12:6, 14] The idea of a gap was not introduced into the Church by the futurists, but by the Reformers, who saw the papacy as the Antichrist.
Some historicists applied the 1,260 years to worldly kingdoms, political developments, and national interests. John Foxe identified Britain with the woman of Revelation 12. German princes, for example, probably believed that Luther's teachings would help them obtain independence from the domination of the Holy Roman Empire. Thomas Brightman related the 1,260 days to the events of the Counter Reformation, and the Council of Trent convened by pope Paul III in the year 1545. Johann Heinrich Alsted connected the 1,260 years with the sack of Heidelberg in 1622.
Joseph Mede said the 1,260 days and 42 months and time times and a half all refer to the same time period. Thomas Brightman said the plagues associated with the trumpets were brought by the two witnesses, who "smite the earth with all plagues," and so the period of their ministry must apply to the previous history of the Church.
Historicist interpreters saw the 1,260 days as applying to their own time, or said that the time would be fulfilled soon after. They expected its imminent fulfillment. In the late 18th century the turmoil of the French Revolution and events of the Reformation seemed to fulfill prophecy; the events of the period were so appalling, they cast a shadow over the 19th century, and many claimed the 1,260 days must have ended then.
Historicists like Bishop Newton, Simpson, Baxter, Guinness, and others were vague about which events began and ended the 1,260 years. Their methods seemed ad hoc. Seiss and others criticized the Historicist interpreters for being inconsistent, and those criticisms were valid. Futurism and preterism were reactions to the proliferation of dates by historicists, and were seen as alternatives to the confusion of historicism. But Seiss ignored the writings of men who said the time refers to the whole age of the church, such as Alcuin, John Bale, William Fulke, George Gifford, Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg, and others; perhaps he was ignorant of them.
The interpreters who said the time times and a half and the 1,260 days refer to the whole age of the church, Alcuin, John Bale, William Fulke, George Gifford, Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg, James Burton Coffman, Gregory K. Beale, and others, are entirely consistent. To them, the criticisms by Seiss, about lack of agreement, do not apply.
The idea of a gap, as introduced by historicists, and as adopted in futurism, and also preterism which sees the entire age of the church as a "gap," to which prophecy does not apply, imply that during the period for which such a gap applies, which is some portion or all of the history of the church, the saints have not been fed by God, and they have not been nourished spiritually in a place "prepared by God." But Jesus said, "lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." [Mat. 28:20] Preterists say that the end happened in 70 AD. Their opinions are founded on the silly idea that the generation of Jesus Christ has passed away.
The prophecy of Daniel 7 said the little horn of the fourth beast would "speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws." [Dan. 7:25] The "times" mentioned here, I think, must include the "times" in Daniel's prophecy; the 70 weeks and the "time, times and a half" in which the saints are "given into his hand." The little horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man," and so represents the human viewpoint, as opposed to the divine viewpoint.
In the variety of man's opinions about the time, times and a half and the 1,260 days represented by the names in the list above, there may be a fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel which said "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." [Dan. 12:9-10] The words were "sealed" till the end time. So perhaps that is a reason why all those men who studied the prophecies in the previous centuries failed to fully understand them, even though the list includes some of the world's greatest minds, such as Sir Isaac Newton; it was not yet the "time of the end." But since Daniel also said, "the wise shall understand," the saints should expect to fully understand these time prophecies at the appropriate time.
The 42 months, the time, times and a half, and the 1,260 days all represent half of a prophetic week, which I suggest is the 70th week of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy; it is the week in which Christ confirms his covenant with his saints. Jesus began his ministry when that 70th week began; the prophetic half-week is the completion of it. And the entire "week" is "seven times," and the fulfillment of the last of four periods of "seven times" in Lev. 26, when God is to be reconciled to his people. It is the time that was foreshadowed in the life of Jacob, who labored for seven years under Laban, for his bride Rachel, but that seven years turned out to be a bit longer than was expected.
In the list of names above, and the variety of interpretations of the 42 months, the time, times and a half, and the 1,260 days, there is an illustration of the sackcloth clothing of the two witnesses; the Scriptures and the Spirit. Many of those men identified the Scriptures as one of the witnesses, or both; others said the assembly of the saints, or the Spirit of Christ, were also one of the two witnesses, even while postulating a limited time of 1,260 years for their ministry. And this idea that their time was limited to 1,260 years was the basis for one of the criticisms by Seiss. He said: "It is not true that the Old and New Testaments are preached to the world only 1260 days, or years, and then end their testimony;--that they are arrayed in sackcloth all the days they are preached;--that fire issues out of their mouths and kills those who will to injure them;--that there is no rain upon the earth during the days of their prophesying;--that they have power over waters to convert them into blood, or at will to smite the earth with plagues;--that they are capable of being killed by man;--or that indignity can be offered them, being dead, by refusing to allow them to be put into a sepulchre. Yet all these things are affirmed of these Witnesses."
But, these opinions of Seiss, IMO, are part of the fulfillment of the prophecy of the two witnesses; his literalism "kills" the "Spirit" and exults the "letter." Literalism is a weapon of the beast that ascends from the pit; it is also the weapon of atheists and skeptics, and of the rationalist higher critics. The witnesses are said to be clothed in sackcloth, an inferior, and unattractive material, unsuitable for the saints, who are to be clothed in fine linen. "For the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." [Rev. 19:8]
The historicists who believed that they were living in the time of the ministry of the two witnesses, the Scriptures and the Spirit, now seem to have been far more enlightened than the futurists, or the preterists, who deny that they are in the wilderness, or in that place prepared by God, where they are being nourished. But if they are not in the wilderness, where are they? In the outer court of the temple? Or are they still in Egypt?
Literalism is one of the foes of the two witnesses, which wars against them, and kills them. The "flood from the mouth of the serpent," a flood of flawed interpretations, threatens to carry away the woman, but "the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth." [Rev. 12:15]
When we have the perspective that comes from above, that is provided by an understanding of prophecy, represented by the two wings of an eagle that are given to the woman, we can see the hand of God that works out his plan in the world for the benefit of his Church; the sackcloth in which the witnesses are clothed represents the obscurity of human interpretations; the two witnesses, even when misinterpreted, have "tormented" men through the centuries; who can deny that the influence of the Bible and of the Church have been dominant in the history of Europe for centuries?
The variety of opinions about the 1,260 days, is also a fulfillment of Dan. 12 :7, "when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." The "scattering" of the saints' power is fulfilled by the diversity of interpretations, and the tens of thousands of denominations, and cults, and sects. It is the Antichrist that causes it! And it happens during the "time, times and a half," which is best understood as representing the entire age of the church.
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Below is a chart that presents the time periods related to the 1,260 days in Revelation 11:2 and 3, Revelation 12:6 and 14, and Revelation 13:5. The 1,290 days and the 1,335 days are from Daniel 12:11-12. The horizontal bars represent the relative sizes of the periods; I suggest they end at the same time; the top period encompasses the lower ones. They all end at the same time, at the "consummation" at the end of the age.
All these numbers fit the pattern of "a time, times, and a half." The 1,335 days is one year of 12 months, plus two and a half years of 13 months; the 1,290 days is one year of 13 months, plus two and a half years of 12 months, where the months are taken to be 30 days. The 1,260 days is similar where all years are 12 months, etc. Therefore, they are representations of the "time, times, and a half," but they are progressively shorter, and so the
smaller the period, the
later the start point of it, as shown in the chart.
1,335 days |
1,290 days |
1,260 days |
42 months |
3.5 days |
The 1,335 days encompasses all the other periods; Daniel says of it, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [Dan. 12:12] The one who
waits must be Christ, who waits for the time when the saints are raised up to immortality. I think, this period of 1,335 days represents the time of the Church, from the very beginning when Christ was resurrected.
The next longest period is the 1,290 days, the start point of which, IMO, can be fixed, from what Daniel says: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." This seems to point to the time of the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem by the Romans, in 70 AD, as that was when sacrifices ceased. After that, a temple of Jupiter (or Zeus) was built, by Hadrian. So we can say that this period began at the destruction of Jerusalem.
Then we have the 1,260 days that occur in Revelation 11 & 12, shorter than both the numbers provided by Daniel. This is associated with the time that the two witnesses prophesy. If we take one of the witnesses to be the Scriptures, they were completed only when John finished writing Revelation, and brought together all the other writings in the NT; so the ministry of the two witnesses, the Spirit and the Scriptures, can be said to have begun after the other two periods of Daniel 12:11-12; therefore it is shorter; their ministry has continued over the centuries since. The Scriptures and the message of the Gospel have gone to all parts of the world; the Scriptures and the witness of the saints have "troubled" the nations of Europe and also many other nations. But the beast, who is Satan, has crept out of his pit, where he was placed by Christ, and deceived Christians, and divided them into tens of thousands of sects, cults, and denominations. They are also divided in their opinions about prophecy; some are preterists, some dispensationalists or futurists, others historicists, etc. So their power is limited; the message is seen as "dead" and the gospel and the scriptures ridiculed, the Church has been made "desolate," as Daniel foretold. Much of the confusion is because of the various interpretations of the "time, times, and a half," or the 1,260 days.
The shortest of all these periods is the three days and a half when the two witnesses lie in the street, and when the world rejoices over their demise, and people of the nations send gifts one to another.
It is followed by the revival of the two witnesses for a brief time and their ascent to heaven.
Now, below is another table that incorporates the previous one, and shows how these periods all relate to the earthly ministry of Jesus, which I have said preceded the start of the "time, times and a half," and the 1,335 days. I have shown that period in yellow at the left in the chart. The ministry of Jesus is often taken to be three and a half years, which can be supported from the Gospel of John. And so, together with the "time, times and a half" the two make "seven times." It is the 70th week, of Daniel 9:24-27, when Christ "confirms his covenant with many."
| time, times, and a half |
3.5 years | 1,335 days |
| 1,290 days |
| 1,260 days |
| 42 months |
| 3.5 days |
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
:cloud9: Granted it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet, :laughing7: but could you summarize this for me? I don't see the point you're trying to make with all this. Thanks.....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 10, 2010, 02:14:18 PM
:cloud9: Granted it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet, :laughing7: but could you summarize this for me? I don't see the point you're trying to make with all this. Thanks.....
All the numbers in the chart, represent
part or
all of the "time, times and a half," first mentioned in Daniel 7:25, and then in Daniel 12:7, and also in the New Testament, in Revelation 12:14.
Daniel 7:25 says it is the time that the saints are dominated by the little horn of the fourth beast. This little horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things." Eyes like the eyes of a man suggests a human viewpoint, as opposed to the Divine viewpoint, which we are given in prophecy, when rightly interpreted.
In Daniel 12:7, a swearing angel says that the "time, times and a half" is the time to the end of all the things that are encompassed by Daniel's prophecies.
I have arranged the numbers representing the "time, times and a half" in order, from the largest to smallest. The order seems to be:
time, times, and a half
1,335 days
1,290 days
1,260 days
42 months
3.5 days
I have put 42 months
after the 1,260 days, because if these are lunar months, the number of days is about 1,240.
So we have a progressively smaller and smaller representation of the period; and that is how time works; it tends to run out, and become less and less. Think of aging, tax deadlines, getting to the concert, whatever.
The point of all these numbers, then, is to show us that
time is running out; we are near the end of the 1,260 days, and the "time, times, and a half," in the very last "three days and a half" when the witnesses are like dead bodies in the street.
The time that is running out, is the time in which the little horn dominates the saints; when the dragon is cast out, and the saints overcome him, he "hath but a
short time" left to deceive people.
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
Here is how venerable Bede (672-735) understood the significance of the 1,260 days:
| In this number of days, which makes three years and a half, he comprehends all the times of Christianity, because Christ, whose body the Church is, preached the same length of time in the flesh. | |
He understood that "all the times of Christianity," plus the ministry of Christ, is "seven times."
Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)
:cloud9: Ok, thanks, I can see that. It does seem to make sense as a literal witness that it would be that way. I didn't want to miss the point, I could tell you had put a lot of study into it. Sometimes things fly right over my head, though. :laughing7: Blessings....
Here is how Methodius, (c. 815-885) understood the 1,260 days:
| Moreover, the 1260 days, during which we are here in our pilgrimage, is the correct, exact, and most excellent knowledge concerning the Father and the Son and the Spirit, in which our Mother rejoices as she increases. | |
About Methodius, and his brother Cyril, from Wikipedia:
Saints Cyril and Methodius were two Byzantine Greek brothers born in Thessaloniki in the 9th century. They became missionaries of Christianity among the Slavic peoples of Great Moravia and Pannonia. Through their work they influenced the cultural development of all Slavs, for which they received the title "Apostles to the Slavs". They are credited with devising the Glagolitic alphabet, the first alphabet used to transcribe the Old Church Slavonic language. After their deaths, their pupils continued their missionary work among other Slavs.Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses? (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/dload/WTW.pdf)