Annihilationism verses UR.

[LS]

About ED. I agree with you ED is much more likely that ET. But where exactly does it really teach ED? I'm sure you will be able to show some verses. But I'm equally sure others will refute them.

I'm sure of that as well, and for that reason don't generally think it's helpful to argue verse-for-verse.  I do have a large list of verses that talk about people who perish, are destroyed, or are no more, and it really is a large number; far more than verses that speak of universalism or et (in my opinion).  

I just have one simple question for you. What does the parable of the lost sheep means to you? Can in be aligned with ED?

I think so ... and can be summed up with John 10:26:
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

So Jesus is only the Shepherd of a small flock? The elect. All does mean all the elect not all of humanity?

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Psalm 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works
Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

For me it's clear that the flock of Jesus is 100% of humanity. But I'm aware that for many people all=elect.

We were posting at the same time, so I would like to answer this ... I don't believe it is a small flock, or an "elect."  

I made a longer post right before yours, and it explains how I see our place - we either belong to our Father in heaven, or to the father, the devil.  We belong because of choices we've made. Like Saul, we can "change course" or like Balaam, we can continue on.  For those, their end is destruction (Php 3:19, 2 Peter 2:12, and 2Th 1:9)

I hope that answers your question; I'm not intending it to argue with you, but only to clarify when you asked a question.

Peace to you, and thank you!

[WhiteWings]

We were posting at the same time, so I would like to answer this ... I don't believe it is a small flock, or an "elect." 

Clear.

I made a longer post right before yours, and it explains how I see our place - we either belong to our Father in heaven, or to the father, the devil.

A glass darkly now :winkgrin:
There is a flock of the good Shepherd and a flock of the bad shepherd. Is that how you see it?

We belong because of choices we've made. Like Saul, we can "change course" or like Balaam, we can continue on.

That one lost sheep made a choice by walking away. But still the shepherd did bling it back into the flock.
Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
Doesn't that verse mean the Good Shepherd is going to find all sheep? Also those that are in satan's flock?

I hope that answers your question; I'm not intending it to argue with you, but only to clarify when you asked a question.

I never saw it as an argument. Just a friendly chat. :thumbsup:
But it didn't answer my question. I just got more confused :laughing7:

[LS]

But it didn't answer my question. I just got more confused :laughing7:

Sorry about that - I know I'm not the most eloquent and don't always express things in a way others understand   :mblush:  :happy3:

I really didn't intend to get into a big discussion with those of you with strong beliefs in universalism. I appreciate this site for what it is - a place for you all to safely exchange ideas and share your thoughts and beliefs and insights.  I have read here for a long time and think you are a very generous and kind group of believers.

I simply saw this thread with a few people who seemed to be questioning eternal destruction, which is something I strongly believe to be true. I think the more information we have, the more clear our understanding becomes, wherever the LORD leads us  :thumbsup:

Ok, I reallllllllllllly have to get some work done.  Again, thank you and may God bless you deeply   :cloud9:

[shawn]

The reconciliation of the cross is one way--God has reconciled man to himself.  But, man must still reconcile himself to God.  It's a two way street.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Bingo ... excellent post Molly.  And this is how I would reply to jabcat's question to me; it's not a complete reply, but it's something I'm still trying to study and to seek Truth on.

Can "WE" really do this, or again, is it speaking of a "mystery" - in that we can only do that when we're drawn by His spirit, empowered by Him to do so, and "ensured to endure" by the Beginner and Completer of our faith Who saves us by grace through the faith that HE gives us?

Did Paul reconcile himself to God, or did he only do it as God carried out His predestination of him to make him His son?  I believe the latter.  I don't believe we CAN reconcile ourselves to God whithout all the above occurring.  Otherwise, we're saving ourselves, and I don't believe we have within us the power to do that - hence the cross, grace, and mercy.  Again, the "I, yet not I".   :2c:

This is just one man's opinion on the matter but I believe regeneration only comes from God.  The knowledge that we need God can only come from God.  What we choose to do with that knowledge is how we reconcile ourselves to God.  While God can only make us aware of our need...we must make choices...ignore/reject the blood of Christ or accept and be transformed into the likeness of Christ.  When Saul was blinded that was a form of regeneration.  Without that event he would have been unaware of his need.  Did Saul/Paul have a choice to either serve or reject?  I believe so. 

[Shadow]

He does love all of us, he sent his son to die for the world. The problem is that we don't love him or his ways and man loves darkness more than light. But God's will is for all to be saved and none perish.

But who's fault is that, are you implying it's OUR fault, we did not choose to be born I repeat, WE DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE BORN AS SINNERS, IT WAS THRUST UPON US WITHOUT OUR WILL OR CONSENT, SO WE ARE SCREWED BEFORE WE EVEN GET STARTED, this isn't love it's indifference at best and abuse and narcissism at worst

Romans 8v20-21

He does NOT love all, if all are not saved, to state that is a bold faced LIE

This age we live in is a world of darkness with satan as its god. We in this life choose between the tree of life, or the tree of evil. Many people in this world are held captive by Satan and God says that we go to preach the gospel and set people free. Even though there are some scriptures that talk about God setting this up and that etc. The scriptures are clear that God is looking for men to establish his kingdom upon the earth. Our prayer is 'As it is in heaven be upon the Earth.'

He comes and knocks at the door

"if any man will"

As saints we are comisioned to establish Gods rule with our weapons which be not carnal but those weapons we use are spiritual weapons, we establish the Earth by seeding the heavens with our prayers, we set the captives free, we feed the poor, we cast out demons. All this is not done in our own strength but, for 'apart from me you can't do nothing' in Christs strength.

Satan is not here by mistake he has a goal and that is to thief, kill, destroy, his cunning is so and so that he tries to outwit God, but God in his mercy takes that evil and turns it into good, because unlike the devil and men God is good and he came that we might have life and have it more in abundance.

More sugarcoated claptrap and nonsensical drivel, to try deflect the blame onto us for something that's beyond our control and not our fault in the first place, besides the outcome has been rigged before it even got started and to deny it would be dishonest, or denying the truth

We are here, we can either curse God or be thankful that we have been given this glorious opportunity to know Jesus Christ as lord and saviour. In a zillion years all the holy angels will never be able to experience what life is like with sin. God said that which is forgiven most will love the most, our experience here will make us love God more than anthing else, for we tasted darkness and only by tasting it do we realize how much that we love God and his righteousness. The people rejoice when the righteous are in power, but have a heavy heart when the wicked are in power.

We did not ASK to come into existence, with a sin nature imputed to us by default, who's fault is it that there is wickedness in the first place, your God stands back and does nothing and expects us to be grateful whilst he stands back and does nothing, he either wanted it that way or allowed it, there is no other conclusion that can be reached

[thinktank]

shadow I have been where you are before, so I know how you feel. Trying to learn about God while angry is not going to help you much, because every answer seems inefficient. I encourage you to ask God to hear you and to fill your heart :HeartThrob: with the spirit of Jesus and to wash away the pain. Meditate on the blood of Jesus and see that blood wash away your worries and pains. After you feel clean, listen to some worship music so you can drink in his spirit.

The blood of Jesus washes away the pain, it is not just a legal thing, but also spiritual, for Jesus said to come into him and drink, drink my blood and eat my body.

You must contend for the faith, don't give up, the psalms are a great read to encourage your walk with christ.

[WhiteWings]

But who's fault is that, are you implying it's OUR fault, we did not choose to be born I repeat, WE DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE BORN AS SINNERS, IT WAS THRUST UPON US WITHOUT OUR WILL OR CONSENT, SO WE ARE SCREWED BEFORE WE EVEN GET STARTED, this isn't love it's indifference at best and abuse and narcissism at worst.

Do you remember the both of us having a chat while we were in the waiting to get born?
I told you that card was not about your nicotine habit  :laughing7:
(http://www.ourlittleplace.com/images/eternity2.gif)

More sugarcoated claptrap and nonsensical drivel, to try deflect the blame onto us for something that's beyond our control and not our fault in the first place, besides the outcome has been rigged before it even got started and to deny it would be dishonest, or denying the truth

^KJVJoh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Daddy is in control.

he either wanted it that way or allowed it, there is no other conclusion that can be reached

I go for wanted.

Cool down Shadow. You are writen in the Book of Life with a big fat marker :thumbsup:

[willieH]

Dear Molly, you can't even take your next breath unless God enables you to take it.  But if you or anyone else is able to reconcile themselves to God on your own, that's great - (but I don't believe it  :happy3:).

I can't.

Then why is Paul begging people to reconcile themselves to God?

It's the encouragement to believe, "the invitation".  "How shall they hear without a preacher?".  

When we call on the name of Jesus to be saved, then we're reconciled.  But I don't believe we can even do that unless a) the Spirit draws us and b) God gives us the faith we need to believe.

:goodpost:  Perfect insight brother James...  :thumbsup:

The accomplishment of "reconciliation" is already DONE... but individual manifestation of it, IS TESTIFIED [via "knee bowing" and "tongue confession"] IN DUE TIME -- 1 Tim 2:6

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Molly]

your God stands back and does nothing and expects us to be grateful whilst he stands back and does nothing, he either wanted it that way or allowed it, there is no other conclusion that can be reached...

My God doesn't stand back and do nothing.

I prayed for a supertanker and I got one--on my birthday to boot!  ww is my witness!


For you Shadow--

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Molly, another one of you "slipped by me" with a birthday??? You guys need to edit your profile to include at least the day of your birthday, ok?  :HeartThrob:

[thinktank]

your God stands back and does nothing and expects us to be grateful whilst he stands back and does nothing, he either wanted it that way or allowed it, there is no other conclusion that can be reached...

My God doesn't stand back and do nothing.

I prayed for a supertanker and I got one--on my birthday to boot!  ww is my witness!
-----------------------------------------------------



For you Shadow--

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

I bet you had a whale of a time on your birthday!

[Beloved Servant]

<——  slipped by you too, Card! :upset:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister Shadow...  :friendstu:

T-tank gives nice encouragement to you below, ...but in the end, our STEPS are PURPOSELY ordered by Him -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- and the sorrows and joys along the pathway are necessary elements that must be endured, for at the end of the journey they contribute to the MAGNIFYING experience of the COMPLETENESS of JOY... 

We must shed tears, and endure sufferings for in them, as with JESUS, is PERFECTION being processed -- Heb 2:10

shadow I have been where you are before, so I know how you feel. Trying to learn about God while angry is not going to help you much, because every answer seems inefficient. I encourage you to ask God to hear you and to fill your heart :HeartThrob: with the spirit of Jesus and to wash away the pain. Meditate on the blood of Jesus and see that blood wash away your worries and pains. After you feel clean, listen to some worship music so you can drink in his spirit.

The blood of Jesus washes away the pain, it is not just a legal thing, but also spiritual, for Jesus said to come into him and drink, drink my blood and eat my body.

You must contend for the faith, don't give up, the psalms are a great read to encourage your walk with christ.

Here it is in a nutshell, Shadow:

Jer 29:13-14 --- And ye shall seek Me and find me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart... and ...I... WILL be found of YOU saith YHVH, and I will turn away YOUR CAPTIVITY and ...I... will gather YOU from ALL the NATIONS, and from ALL places whither ...I... HAVE DRIVEN YOU, saith YHVH... and ...I... will BRING YOU AGAIN, into the place whence ...I... CAUSED YOU to be CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE....

GOD decides both our CAPTIVITY as well as our DELIVERANCE... which comes at His descretion, for HE begins the process of your searching -- John 6:44 as WW has previously noted...

You are in GOOD HANDS... and know even in your despairs, that PEACE is your destiny...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Cardinal]

<——  slipped by you too, Card! :upset:

:sigh: Geez, my apologies....don't know where I was then  :mblush:

[WhiteWings]

I prayed for a supertanker and I got one--on my birthday to boot!  ww is my witness!

Yes! Scouts honor  :laughing7:

BTW Molly does your husband knows you remarried?  :laughing7:

[willieH]

^KJVJoh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Daddy is in control.

Amen WW...  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :happy3:

[shawn]

He does love all of us, he sent his son to die for the world. The problem is that we don't love him or his ways and man loves darkness more than light. But God's will is for all to be saved and none perish.

But who's fault is that, are you implying it's OUR fault, we did not choose to be born I repeat, WE DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE BORN AS SINNERS, IT WAS THRUST UPON US WITHOUT OUR WILL OR CONSENT, SO WE ARE SCREWED BEFORE WE EVEN GET STARTED, this isn't love it's indifference at best and abuse and narcissism at worst

Romans 8v20-21

He does NOT love all, if all are not saved, to state that is a bold faced LIE

This age we live in is a world of darkness with satan as its god. We in this life choose between the tree of life, or the tree of evil. Many people in this world are held captive by Satan and God says that we go to preach the gospel and set people free. Even though there are some scriptures that talk about God setting this up and that etc. The scriptures are clear that God is looking for men to establish his kingdom upon the earth. Our prayer is 'As it is in heaven be upon the Earth.'

He comes and knocks at the door

"if any man will"

As saints we are comisioned to establish Gods rule with our weapons which be not carnal but those weapons we use are spiritual weapons, we establish the Earth by seeding the heavens with our prayers, we set the captives free, we feed the poor, we cast out demons. All this is not done in our own strength but, for 'apart from me you can't do nothing' in Christs strength.

Satan is not here by mistake he has a goal and that is to thief, kill, destroy, his cunning is so and so that he tries to outwit God, but God in his mercy takes that evil and turns it into good, because unlike the devil and men God is good and he came that we might have life and have it more in abundance.

More sugarcoated claptrap and nonsensical drivel, to try deflect the blame onto us for something that's beyond our control and not our fault in the first place, besides the outcome has been rigged before it even got started and to deny it would be dishonest, or denying the truth

We are here, we can either curse God or be thankful that we have been given this glorious opportunity to know Jesus Christ as lord and saviour. In a zillion years all the holy angels will never be able to experience what life is like with sin. God said that which is forgiven most will love the most, our experience here will make us love God more than anthing else, for we tasted darkness and only by tasting it do we realize how much that we love God and his righteousness. The people rejoice when the righteous are in power, but have a heavy heart when the wicked are in power.

We did not ASK to come into existence, with a sin nature imputed to us by default, who's fault is it that there is wickedness in the first place, your God stands back and does nothing and expects us to be grateful whilst he stands back and does nothing, he either wanted it that way or allowed it, there is no other conclusion that can be reached

I hear ya Shadow.  I've been there...done that.  There is alot of pain in life.  It can make you a bit jaded.  I think you suffer from some depression as well.  I have thought those thoughts.  I had alot to sort through.  I didn't ask to be born.  But, ya know what?  I'm here.  That's the reality of it.  Now I have a choice.  I can try to make the best of it...or sulk.  It's when I was tired of pouting that I decided I am going to make the best of this.  I am going to try to figure out why I was born in the first place.  I am going to try to enjoy my life.  I won't feed the depressive thoughts.  They won't own me.  My Christian roots helped guide me back to some balance and find some peace in this messed up world.

You are here...no getting around that.  If you really didn't want to be here...I figure you would have checked out long ago.  Why do you come here and discuss these matters?  I figure you are looking for a little peace like the rest of us.  Why are you angry?  I figure you are like most people...scared, hurt and pointing fingers.  Listen, I know all about it.  But, today I choose life.  Today I choose Christ...I choose something higher than myself.

So, what are you left with?  Looking for a few answers?  I'll give you just one man's take.  If UR guys are right...I can't imagine God holding you hostage in heaven for eternity.  If you get there...and want out...I bet he would give you your wish.  I just highly doubt you would want to go anywhere.  If the ED guys are right...then you will be put out of your misery.  It won't matter one bit in a 100 years how much you suffered in that case.  You won't remember it.  And while I can't rule out ET...I just don't see it.

That might seem a bit harsh...but it's the only way I could understand life/afterlife when I struggled with these questions.  I hope it helped you like it helped me.

[Molly]

When Jesus was walking around doing his miracles, he would always ask the people coming up to him---what do you want?  Now there are places where it is made clear that Jesus could read minds, but why would the Son of God, or anybody for that matter, who is doing miracles, ask a blind man--what do you want?  What miracle would you like today, Mr. Blind Man?  Of course he wants his sight, but Jesus would make them ask, almost without exception.

I asked for something for maybe 8 years or so once, before I received it.  Now, I have something else in mind and it's going on 11 years or so, but I have faith it will happen when the timing is perfect.

So there seems to be some kind of principle at work here.  And, sometimes it takes a leap of faith and a lot of patience, but we are encouraged to do our part,-- to ask, seek, knock--


7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

--Mat 7

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, there is. Faith requires action. Even just asking is action. Get out of the boat, extend out your hand, take up your bed and walk, ect.

Hearing to us is different from what hearing to God is. To Him when He says "Hear" it means, hear AND obey/do something. He has given every man a measure of faith to receive Him (or from Him) and faith has to be activated, by doing.

That's why it says faith without works, is dead, as opposed to His resurrection life being manifested in some tangible way.

Hang in there Shadow...... :girlheart: Blessings...

[jabcat]

I have agreement with both you ladies.  I guess my main point is, where does that ability to act come from?

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith *of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."  Galatians 2:20

(*.. saved by grace through faith, and THAT (faith) not of yourselves..)

In reality, we probably all 3 attempt to do the same thing - trust the Lord.   :thumbsup:

And we probably also agree, the credit belongs to Him.   Amen.

[jabcat]

in Him we live and move and exist (Acts 17:28)

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.  John 15:5

Let me point something out here.  I'm a hypocrite.  Because I struggle and stress and "try to be a good Christian" to the point of often trusting in my own flesh, abilities, and efforts to try and please Him.  If anyone's read the things I've shared over the years, they may know that I do believe in obedience, submission to Him, taking up our cross, etc.  However, I was raised in a "performance" or lose it and go to hell mindset, and I've practiced that much of my life.  And even though vestiges of that are still present, I've learned and am learning, as the old hymn says, "the arm of flesh will fail you, you dare not trust your own".  So I'm still searching for a more proper level of walking in the Spirit and letting the works in me be the WORKS OF CHRIST IN ME rather than struggling in my own effort.

It probably has something to do with this being such an important and interesting topic for me.  It's something I'm still trying (there's that word again :mblush:) to find the balance in and learn - learning to trust Him above all else - and to give Him glory and credit.  

God bless, James.   :bigGrin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Jesus said He only did what He saw His Father do. Now while I think it's perfectly plausible and even likely He literally saw into the realm where Father is 24/7, I also think He was referring to what He "saw" in the scriptures.

IMO, the rest comes from doing what His Spirit is telling you to do at that moment in time, for that day. And so, getting our daily bread and eating it in the light of the candlestick.

I think this is why He said to take no thought for tomorrow, because if you do you're getting ahead of His instructions that He may not give you UNTIL tomorrow. Not doing that, the root of which, is probably some form of fear (isn't it always?). Blessings...

[Molly]

IMO, the rest comes from doing what His Spirit is telling you to do at that moment in time, for that day. And so, getting our daily bread and eating it in the light of the candlestick.

That is so true.  The sailor sets his sails each day according to the wind.  And, sometimes, to get from here to there, it is necessary to go sideways [tack].



John 3:7-9
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."


1 Corinthians 12:11
11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.



Ezekiel 37:9
9Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother James... :hithere:

I have agreement with both you ladies.  I guess my main point is, where does that ability to act come from?

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith *of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."  Galatians 2:20

(*.. saved by grace through faith, and THAT (faith) not of yourselves..)

In reality, we probably all 3 attempt to do the same thing - trust the Lord.   :thumbsup:

And we probably also agree, the credit belongs to Him.   Amen.

You just used one of my very favorite, "GLORY giving" :giveheart: Scriptures...  :flowerred:

You are just right on, and on a particularly wise and great "roll" lately, bro James!

CHRIST is the AUTHOR and FINISHER... of FAITH (the abilty and experience of "believing") -- Heb 12:2 -- one that is "finishing" is the one actually "manifesting" it... as is noted in Jude 24-25...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother D... :hithere:

<——  slipped by you too, Card! :upset:

When was your BD, David?   :dunno:

:Oops:  I am sorry I missed it as well!  :upset:

I really hope you had a great day!  :friendstu:

your friend...

...willieH  :Peace2: