Tentmaker Forum

It seems that sandwiched between ET and UR, is Annihilationism (which really needs an abbreviation) (Come to think of it, abbreviation could use an abbreviation)

Anyways, I know where to go on the internet when it comes to exploring ET. And I know where to go when it comes to exploring UR. But I wonder if there's an Annihilationism website the equivalent of Tentmaker. Or even if those who believe in Annihilationism have a passionate enough feeling about their views to even form a website slash discussion group.

I find myself becoming a fence sitter when it comes to opposing views like Calvinism and Arminianism
for instance as one of many examples. It just seems that when the Bible seems so ambiguous, that both sides can back their dogmas up with a plethora of Scripture and argue in circles until the fatted calf comes home. And perhaps this is because actual truth is somewhere in-between.

I'm wondering about this when it comes to, ET - A - UR. The problem with ET is obvious to everyone here I'm sure. The problem with UR could be that there are those who will always be opposed to God. There are some people who just don't believe out of ignorance, and given the right opportunity will become believers/worshipers. Then there are those who just plain hate God. They hate Christ. They're not Atheists or Agnostics, they're Antichrists.

It could be argued that for such souls, heaven would be like hell to them. And I seriously think, in my tiny human brain, that given the choice, such people would rather just be zapped out of the afterlife. Most such people I'm sure believe that there's no afterlife anyways.

So, does anyone have any thoughts about Annihilationism versus UR? Anyone here a former Annihilationist? Does Annihilationism seem unbiblical? If so, in what way?
It seems like ET and UR get argued back and forth and constantly pitted against each other. But this third option seems to get left more out of the picture.

Hey cool! When I Googled "Calvinism Arminianism" to make sure I spelled
"Arminianism" correctly, I saw this add:

Calvinism and Arminianism
Are these Beliefs Biblical?
Absolutely Not. Learn Why?
www.GodsPlanForAll.com

Hi McPherson,

I use to belong to the World Wide Church of God and they believed in annihilation. Actually there is more support in the Bible for annihilation than ET. I grew up in a Baptist environment, I always had my doubts about ET but I was in my teens and thought this belief was all there was.

(Mal. 4:1-3) is one verse those who believe in annihilation use.  Also where it mentions everlasting punishment, they say punishment means an end. They use the fact that it doesn't say punishing to establish annihilation. They believe the second death is a proof for annihilation also. There are other things that I can't even remember now that they use to prove annihilation. I will have to admit I was a believer in annihilation at one time but that has been a few years ago.

CHB

Again,
Just a thought,
I am a strong UR, and supporter of this web site and it's open support.

That being said, on with it.

Regarding the subject;
and related topics,
I believe God is the creator of everything; , and simplistically, I have come from Him, same as an off spring. Same as
everything in existence. Annihilation kinda sounds like a similar to suicide of a sort...
Just a non scholar's point of view.

Science agrees in it's own deductive way, they just can't handle the creation part.
_________________________
The law of conservation of mass was first clearly formulated by Lavoisier, a french chemist who was beheaded during the french revolution.

E = mc2 , derived by Einstien, expresses how mass and energy may be converted. They may be interconverted but not created or destroyed

this pages have strong arguments, there also seems to be a book avaiable, "the fire that consumes"

http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/
http://www.sheol-know.org/
http://www.hell-know.net/

Hi MacPherson,
You asked:
Annihilationism (which really needs an abbreviation) .... well there is one...ED = Eternal Death.
ED'ers are twin brothers to ET'ers.
They all make our Heavenly Father a loser.
They all make our savior Jesus Christ a liar, saying that he cannot / or will not draw all unto himself.


MacPherson said:

Quote
The problem with UR could be that there are those who will always be opposed to God. There are some people who just don't believe out of ignorance, and given the right opportunity will become believers/worshipers. Then there are those who just plain hate God. They hate Christ. They're not Atheists or Agnostics, they're Antichrists.

It could be argued that for such souls, heaven would be like hell to them. And I seriously think, in my tiny human brain, that given the choice, such people would rather just be zapped out of the afterlife. Most such people I'm sure believe that there's no afterlife anyways.

Actually MacPherson, ...no one will oppose God forever.  Those who hate God during this lifetime, have been taught to do so.
Our loving heavenly Father will reteach them to forgive and love.  He has all the time in the world to accomplish His will.

http://jesusthelightoftheworld.yuku.com/topic/1990/t/EVERYBODY-WILL-BECOME-SAVED-CONFESS-THAT-JESUS-IS-LORD.html

Quote from: Brian on December 24, 2008, 07:24:48 AM
It seems that sandwiched between ET and UR, is Annihilationism (which really needs an abbreviation) (Come to think of it, abbreviation could use an abbreviation)

Anyways, I know where to go on the internet when it comes to exploring ET. And I know where to go when it comes to exploring UR. But I wonder if there's an Annihilationism website the equivalent of Tentmaker. Or even if those who believe in Annihilationism have a passionate enough feeling about their views to even form a website slash discussion group.

ED=Eternal Death.

Personally I find ED far more realistic that both ET and UR.
I don't fear it either because what is there to fear about a state of knowing nothing. Sound a bit like being alive  :laughing7:
That said the Bible seems to support UR best. And ET least.

ED... :laughing7:  is also the abbreviation for Erectile Dysfunction.

Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Quote from: Doc on January 21, 2009, 08:53:25 PM
ED... :laughing7:  is also the abbreviation for Erectile Dysfunction.

Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Hi Doc
I thought it already was..just some folk dont realise it Yet,( ie not meaning you)

Quote from: Doc on January 21, 2009, 08:53:25 PM
Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

That's just how you read it.
What about this reasoning from the EDs?
God does His judgements. Heaven or death. After those judgements death has no more power because nobody will die from that point on.

Quote from: Doc on January 21, 2009, 08:53:25 PM
ED... :laughing7:  is also the abbreviation for Erectile Dysfunction.

Yep.
I think that's the first death. So it fits well  :laughing7:

Personally, I think that Annihilation is just a cross between Universalism and Traditionalism.  It seems like all that has happened was that the people who support annihlation have taken all the traditional understandings of judgment, the Lake of Fire, Gehenna, and other such scriptures as something negative and final, along with their belief that Aion means Eternal.  But they also still read all the other scriptures talking about love, mercy, and the restitution of all things, and a universe with no pain and suffering where every knee bends down before the lord and confesses Jesus as savior, and God is all in all.  However they seem to see the teachings of the narrow path, absolute free will, eternal punishment, the great day of Judgment, and the Lake of fire more how tradition sees it with the new spin.  The people who are punished die never to come back again.  So its only a way of trying to merge traditionalism(very little biblical support), with the Gospel Truth(Full bible support). 

I think annhilation is not to be feared. But there are two views on annhilation.

1. Only those in this lifetime who know Jesus will get to live

2. There will be chances in this life and the age to come to know Jesus

I think the second choice can be biblical, it supports free will, and makes sense of the lake of fire, which is called the second death. The first death must be a spiritual death and the second death must be complete death.

There's nothing fearfull about this I think and in some ways shows greater love than UN, for God doesn't force worship of him. But I recognize that UN can be also compatible with God's will, overuling mans, such as when God's glory humbled the king of babylon. So in my opinion I think both views are compatible with Gods love, but the first choice I mentioned, is too limited for God and doesn't hold up to when God died for all mankind.

by: thinktank,

QuoteThe first death must be a spiritual death and the second death must be complete death.

i haven't read through all these posts, maybe someone has brought up this thought i don't know, but my thought is that if ANY that had life and is now no more then death is still exsisting, but Jesus has abolished death, how is that happening?

if Annihilation was true that would be more merciful than ET  imho

Quote from: lookingup on June 23, 2010, 08:28:40 PMif Annihilation was true that would be more merciful than ET  imho

Yeah. ED is justice and UR is mercy. But ET..... :sigh:

Saul of Tarsus was annihilated.

I agree with that Paul.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 23, 2010, 08:45:15 PM

Quote from: lookingup on June 23, 2010, 08:28:40 PMif Annihilation was true that would be more merciful than ET  imho

Yeah. ED is justice and UR is mercy. But ET..... :sigh:

With my limited human understanding I would have to totally agree with this statement.  Belief in Jesus' death on the cross for our sins allows God to not to have to hand out justice.  He can deal with his creation with mercy.  With that said, I see no Biblical evidence that we will get a chance to accept Jesus AFTER death.  Could God work it out like that?  I believe so.  Do I have Biblical evidence for that?  I think the Biblical support for that is very weak.  It's why if I was forced to choose I would have to side with the ED arguments.  There is alot more Biblical support for this belief.  No belief in Jesus in this life=God deals with non believers with justice...ED  Belief=mercy....EL.

Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2010, 04:42:47 PMWith that said, I see no Biblical evidence that we will get a chance to accept Jesus AFTER death.

Every knee will and confess....
Every person that kneels accepts Jesus. The person who accepts Jesus is saved.
No time limit.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 25, 2010, 04:51:58 PM

Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2010, 04:42:47 PMWith that said, I see no Biblical evidence that we will get a chance to accept Jesus AFTER death.

Every knee will and confess....
Every person that kneels accepts Jesus. The person who accepts Jesus is saved.
No time limit.

If we are intellectually honest...we must realize that could mean many things.  And that UR interpretation of that verse doesn't fit with the large bulk of scripture.

Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2010, 05:36:44 PMIf we are intellectually honest...we must realize that could mean many things.  And that UR interpretation of that verse doesn't fit with the large bulk of scripture.

You see it as being forced to kneel?

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 25, 2010, 05:40:27 PM

Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2010, 05:36:44 PMIf we are intellectually honest...we must realize that could mean many things.  And that UR interpretation of that verse doesn't fit with the large bulk of scripture.

You see it as being forced to kneel?

I have no idea what it absolutely means...it could mean various things including metaphorical language of submission.  For me, to pigeon hole scriptures leads to misunderstanding.  While it could mean exactly what you think it means...there is alot of scripture that would contradict that belief. 

For me, UR hinged on what Jesus meant by Gehenna.  That is the key to UR argument.  Debating over forever vs a long period of time has lesser value.  I believe what Jesus says on this issue.  So, what did he mean by Gehenna?  Obviously, it wasn't meant to be interpreted in the literal sense.  It was a metaphor.  Why do you take something or someone to a trash dump/crematory?  To destroy.  You don't take something/someone to a place like this for purification.  1 Enoch 27:1-3 I believe gives us our best look at what Jesus meant by Gehenna.  This idea that it could be a place of purification doesn't fit...not in the metaphical sense or the OT sense of the word.  So, all this debate about anonion which can mean forever or a long period of time is not of great value in determining the nature/reality of hell. 

Gehenna was a place of shame. Only dead criminal were cast into it.

Can you quote the Enoch verses?

Actually Shawn, there is another way to look at Gehenna (or maybe more accurately, the Lake of Fire, some say symbolized by Gehenna) in the sense of cleansing vs. destroying.  As J. Preston Eby points out, in a scientific sense, something never becomes nothing.  It is just chemically changed into another form.  So not only is there a cleansing process for the surrounding "environment", but also for the substance in the fire.

Quoting from "The Lake of Fire" -  
Because of the gross misunderstanding of almost all people concerning the lake of fire, I would like to draw your attention to three words found in the passage quoted above. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE: which is the second death." The word BURN means combustion, or to consume. To consume does not mean to annihilate, for there is no such thing as annihilation in the absolute sense. When fire consumes a log in your fireplace it does not destroy any of the elements within the log, it merely changes their form. Combustion is the process by which chemicals combine to form new chemicals. For example: a tree might be cut down, sawed into fire wood, and burned. When the wood is burning the heat causes the chemicals of which the wood is composed to vaporize, mixing with the oxygen in the air to form new chemicals, including water and the gas carbon dioxide. So what was formerly a tree is no longer identified as the form of a tree, but the substance thereof is now simply CHANGED into a DIFFERENT FORM and exists in its new form within the atmosphere as water, carbon dioxide, etc. Thus, to bum, means to CHANGE. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up; it seeks the highest level. And all that it consumes "goes up in smoke," to exist in a new form in a higher dimension. Even if you take a pan of water and place it over a fire, before long the water will take on the property of the fire and will begin to go up in steam. To burn means to CHANGE, and the change is always UPWARD in its motion.

FIRE is the heat and light that you feel and see when something burns. It takes heat to start a fire, but once the fire is started it produces heat that keeps the process going. Thus, fire is really HEAT and LIGHT.

In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 25, 2010, 07:16:58 PM
Gehenna was a place of shame. Only dead criminal were cast into it.

Can you quote the Enoch verses?

I'm at work and don't have my resources with me.  Let me see if I can find an online resource.

Jab...I am aware of the laws of conservation of mass.  However, I'm not sure Jesus would use a metaphor about this law to the common man 2000 years ago.  It's certainly possible but for me is a stretch.

On a basic level, even God's cleansing is nothing to be sneezed at, so it could still be seen as a dire warning - something to "avoid" by being obedient "now".  So IMO, Jesus talking about destruction, punishment etc., could still have deeper meaning/aspects and process of cleansing as mentioned above.  I may simply tell my child, "don't go in the street, you may get hit".  But I may not go into all the details of what that may entail - injury, hospital stay, the different types of treatment that may be involved - surgery, casts, traction, the credentialing of certain doctors' specialties, options of medications to be used - how those meds are researched, tested, patented, how they work, etc.  So anyway, a simple warning and all the other possible intricate details, IMO, are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Again quoting Mr. Eby from the same article, following his description of the cleansing process - "If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around. Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."

I couldn't find the verse in Enoch but I believe it's important to understand what the Jewish believed Gehenna to mean.  I did find some commentary on the subject.

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).


Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G#ixzz0rtEAVG6I




This goes on to say...

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G#ixzz0rtCqypXm

Do the sinners disappear from the pious to go to eternal punishment or to annihilation?  Do some sinners die there and others suffer for eternity according to Jewish understanding?

Quote from: jabcat on June 25, 2010, 08:10:19 PM
On a basic level, even God's cleansing is nothing to be sneezed at, so it could still be seen as a dire warning - something to "avoid" by being obedient "now".  So IMO, Jesus talking about destruction, punishment etc., could still have deeper meaning/aspects and process of cleansing as mentioned above.  I may simply tell my child, "don't go in the street, you may get hit".  But I may not go into all the details of what that may entail - injury, hospital stay, the different types of treatment that may be involved - surgery, casts, traction, the credentialing of certain doctors' specialties, options of medications to be used - how those meds are researched, tested, patented, how they work, etc.  So anyway, a simple warning and all the other possible intricate details, IMO, are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Again quoting Mr. Eby from the same article, following his description of the cleansing process - "If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around. Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."

Jab...I really hope you are right on this.  I just don't know. 

I hope I'm right too.   :laughing7: 

I cling to this;  You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.  James 5:11   :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on June 25, 2010, 08:22:19 PM
I hope I'm right too.   :laughing7: 

I cling to this;  You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.  James 5:11   :thumbsup:

On this we can wholeheartedly agree.  It's in this that I trust and why I am not willing to completely close the door on UR.  Our God is mighty and merciful...I believe he loves his creation agape.  I trust God.

Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2010, 08:14:29 PMDo the sinners disappear from the pious to go to eternal punishment or to annihilation?  Do some sinners die there and others suffer for eternity according to Jewish understanding?

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/516993/jewish/Im-scared-of-going-to-hell.htm

QuoteNow to address your question about hell:

You're probably expecting me to depict a haunting scene of ghosts and goblins. But the Jewish concept of "heaven" and "hell" cannot be more different than the description found in medieval Christian texts or cartoons.

Yes, Judaism believes in punishment and reward in the afterlife. But in Judaism:

Hell is temporary -- not permanent.

Hell is a therapy -- not an imprisonment.

Hell is a consequence -- not a punishment.

Hell is a washing machine -- not a furnace.

Sounds interesting? Click here to read all about this topic.

Let me know if this helps. I await your reply.

Yours truly,

Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm

QuoteSo even the most wicked of souls, say our sages, experiences, at most, twelve months of gehinom, followed by an eternity of heaven.

---

December 2009
http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
In the Kabbalah, Gehenna is called a "waiting room" for all souls and not just the souls of the sinners.
According to rabbinic literature, people don't stay in Gehenna forever. Gehena is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death.
Rabbi Akiva claims that the longest that one can be there is 12 months.

---

Judaism
Daniel 12:2 proclaims "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on his or her life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah describes it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 11 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah. In addition, Subbotniks and Messianic Judaism believe in Gehenna, but Samaritans probably believe in a separation of the wicked in a shadowy existence, Sheol, and the righteous in heaven.

---

August 2004
We have also demonstrated from the Tanach
and the Sages that the forgiveness of sin can be
attained with or without the Temple standing, and
without a blood sacrifice.ÊÊ
There is much to be said about the creation and
greatness of repentance. I will only quote a
couple of sources from the Sages of Israel:
"Yet was the fire of the Gehenna created on the
eve of the Sabbath? Surely it was taught: Seven
things were created before the world was
created, and these are they: The Torah,
repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the
Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the
Messiah".[18]
Ê
"It was taught: R Meir used to say, Great is
repentance, for on account of an individual who
repents, (does not need to die)[19] the sins of all
the world are forgiven, as it is said: I will heal
their backsliding. I will love them freely, for mine
anger is turned away from him. 'From them' it is
not said, but 'from him."[20] [21]Ê

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
December 2009
http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
In the Kabbalah, Gehenna is called a "waiting room" for all souls and not just the souls of the sinners.
According to rabbinic literature, people don't stay in Gehenna forever. Gehena is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death.
Rabbi Akiva claims that the longest that one can be there is 12 months.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
August 2008
Question: Dear Rabbi Maroof,
First of all, I would like to thank you for providing
this space to address Jewish matters. My
question is related to the afterlife, a subject in which
Judaism contains a variety of opinions. From my
understanding (please let me know if I am misunderstanding
any concept), according to some
biblical references, more specifically, Job and
Ecclesiastes, there's a place called "Sheol", an
underground abyss where all souls -whether good
or evil, go. There's also the concept of Gan Eden
(heaven) and Gehinnom (hell), but ultimately all
souls go to heaven after they purge their sins and
wrongdoings, except the extremely wicked and
evil, whose soul will be either ceased from
existence or be eternally under suffering -this is
another topic that has different interpretations. So,
are Sheol and Gehinnon equivalent? Also, after the
resurrection of the souls in the World to Come (in a
physical form), will there be death again?

---
Response: Dear Carolina, These are weighty
and complex questions. Let me begin by emphasizing
that the concept of a soul entering a "place",
whether under or above ground, is not a part of
Jewish theology. The soul is not a physical object
that can travel in space or be situated in a specific
location. Whenever a reference is made to a soul
'going' somewhere, it is intended in a metaphoric,
not a literal, sense.
The Biblical term "Sheol" simply refers to the
grave, the final resting place of the physical body.
Maimonides teaches that the Afterlife is a
metaphysical state of blissful existence that ensues
after the separation of the soul from the body. This
state can only be achieved by an individual who
has perfected his or her soul through the acquisition
of knowledge and positive character traits and the
performance of good deeds. Because the soul has
developed a spiritual, transcendent aspect, it is able
to survive physical death and partake of the greatest
reward imaginable - namely, an unadulterated and
fully satisfying perception of Hashem's wisdom.
It is important to remember that, since we exist in
a physical body during this lifetime and all of our
knowledge is based upon our experiences of the
material world, we cannot possibly imagine what it
would be like to exist metaphysically. This is the
reason why our Sages are compelled to employ
metaphor and analogy when speaking about these
profound matters. Unfortunately, because we are
generally much more comfortable with concrete
imagery than abstract ideas, many people latch
onto the metaphoric depictions of the rabbis as if
they are literal facts. Thus, they develop sensual
concepts of the World to Come that are of necessity
inaccurate. We must accept the reality that the true
nature of the Afterlife is not something that we
have the ability to comprehend during our sojourn
on this Earth.
Wicked people whose entire existence in this
world revolves around material gain and bodily
pleasure have not actualized the metaphysical
dimension of their souls. As a result, their souls
perish with their bodies at the conclusion of their
physical lives. They suffer the ultimate punishment
- the loss of the opportunity to experience the
pleasure of true knowledge and understanding.
In the Messianic era, the righteous will be revived
from the dead and will participate in the establishment
of a utopian society that will be fully aligned
with God's wisdom. Their resurrection will also
afford these great men and women the benefit of
living in an enlightened world community -
something they did not have the opportunity to do
before their deaths. In the end, though, the laws of
nature will continue to reign, and the righteous -
like all other mortals - will eventually pass away
once again, allowing their souls to return to a
blessed state of metaphysical existence for eternity.
I would like to add two important points. The first
point is that our service of Hashem in this world is
inherently rewarding and fulfilling. Any additional
reward is really superfluous to the wise person who
enjoys truth and justice for their own sake.
Similarly, living a materialistic, unenlightened life
is its own punishment. Such a lifestyle frustrates
human beings, denying them the actualization of
their intellectual and spiritual potential while
offering them an endless array of unsatisfying
substitutes that fail to address their uniquely human
needs.
Those who believe that the ultimate reward for
study and righteousness is endless physical
pleasure necessarily maintain that the pleasures of
the body are the ultimate good for human beings,
and that living wisely is a means to the end of
material self-indulgence. Similarly, the belief in
eternal physical torment for the wicked stems from
the assumption that bodily suffering is worse than
the pain of living without wisdom. Both of these
suppositions are contrary to the core teachings of
Judaism. The devoted Jew does not need the
promise of extrinsic reward nor the threat of extrinsic
punishment to entice him or her to live by the
dictates of the Torah. Pleasures and pains of the
body are simply incomparable to the contentment
the soul derives from its pursuit of knowledge and
virtue. By way of analogy, imagine that a wealthy
individual offered you one million dollars cash,
with no strings attached. Would you ask "well,
what's in it for me? What's my reward for accepting
the money?" Any additional reward would pale
by comparison to the receipt of the funds
themselves. In the same way, wisdom is its own
reward, and anyone who asks "what's in it for me"
has not yet experienced its beauty - a beauty so rich
and overflowing that it causes all temporal enjoyments
to seem base and worthless by comparison.
The second point I'd like to emphasize is that the
common notion of "Divine Punishment" is derived
from the theologies of other popular religions, and
not from the teachings of the Torah. In these
religions, God is portrayed as an angry humanlike
being who cannot tolerate the disregard with which
human beings treat Him and His laws. His thirst for
vengeance is so all-consuming that the only way
He can quell his rage is by condemning sinners to
everlasting torment in Hell. This idea is, of course,
based upon the assumption that God takes pleasure
in our morality and religiosity and that He becomes
frustrated and aggressive when we fail to placate
Him with our worship. Advocates of this notion
seem to maintain that God finds comfort in
torturing violators of His commandments for all
eternity.
By contrast, the Jewish view is that righteousness
and wickedness - as well as reward and
punishment - are exclusively for human benefit.
God does not become 'angry' when we sin, nor
does our goodness provide Him any satisfaction.
When we make the right choices, then God may
assist us in furthering our development so that we
more fully actualize the potential for genuine
happiness that He implanted within us - not
because He needs us to continue, but because it is
His will to provide the best for His creatures.
At the same time, when we choose to act immorally,
we do a disservice to ourselves alone. God, in
His infinite mercy, may punish us to correct us and
steer us back onto the proper path, but not because
He takes some sinister, vengeful pleasure in our
suffering. We can see this from the fact that God
only intervenes to punish individuals whom He
knows are sufficiently close to Him to respond
appropriately to censure, as King Solomon wrote,
"The ones God loves, He rebukes." If a person is
so far from God that there is no hope that he will
repent as a result of Divinely imposed punishments,
then God will not implement them.
Hashem does not mete out consequences to make
us suffer for our sins; His purpose in chastising
human beings is to educate and uplift those of us
who are at least potentially receptive to His
message.
From this standpoint, it is clear why subjecting
human souls to everlasting torment in the Hereafter
would be meaningless. Once our lives are over,
all hope of repentance is lost - so what use would
punishment serve after death? Only a religion that
views God in human terms - as a sadistic fatherfigure
who is insatiably angry with his children
and needs to 'vent' - could possibly embrace such
a concept.
I should mention that there are some Rabbis,
such as Nachmanides, who subscribe to the
concept of 'Gehinnom'. 'Gehinnom' is understood
here as a process of purification of the soul -
metaphorically denoted by a 'place' to which it
goes - that occurs before that soul enters its final
state of spiritual existence. We all have ties to the
material world that serve as obstacles to our
spiritual growth, interfering and even tampering
with the proper development of our souls. The idea
of Gehinnom is that a profound experience of
self-awareness and intellectual clarity after death -
revealing, as it would, that any attachment to the
realm of the physical is utterly meaningless - may
enable a person to become freed from some of
these limitations and thus to enjoy a more
complete and gratifying metaphysical existence in
the Next World.
For a more detailed and in-depth discussion of
these ideas, I would encourage you to read
Maimonides' "Introduction to Helek", which can
be purchased in English translation from Moznaim
Publishers (It appears as an appendix in the
volume of the Rambam series entitled "Pirkei
Avot").
You may write Rabbi Maroof at his blog:
http://askrabbimaroof.blogspot.com

---

Interesting, good thinking going to a rabbi whitewings I never thought of that, interesting to see the rabbi viewpoint.

Hi ThinkTank,

http://www.mesora.org/ => Main site
http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes/  => Magazine
http://www.mesora.org/qa/ => Q&A

I think it's a good site.

"Hell" lasts:
3 months (or less) for most.
11 months for the very wicked.
12 month for the extremely wicked. (Few/some Rabbis believe this group will be destroyed after the 12 months)
The majority of Rabbi's seem to agree with the above. I Googled a lot for it. But I never found what verses they base that belief on. (my guess it that it has something to do with harvests)

Guys I think we need to be careful not to correlate current Jewish teachings on Gehenna with those of the first century.  I would love to read about first century Jewish beliefs on Gehenna.  I know the Pharisees of that time believed in reincarnation for instance.  I would like to think that Jesus would use a metaphor that would be understood by those of that time.

I havent read much but from what Ive heard there are lots of different Jewish techings, the same way that we Christians differentiate.

Quote from: Brian on December 24, 2008, 07:24:48 AM
The problem with UR could be that there are those who will always be opposed to God. There are some people who just don't believe out of ignorance, and given the right opportunity will become believers/worshipers. Then there are those who just plain hate God. They hate Christ. They're not Atheists or Agnostics, they're Antichrists.

It could be argued that for such souls, heaven would be like hell to them. And I seriously think, in my tiny human brain, that given the choice, such people would rather just be zapped out of the afterlife. Most such people I'm sure believe that there's no afterlife anyways.

So, does anyone have any thoughts about Annihilationism versus UR? Anyone here a former Annihilationist? Does Annihilationism seem unbiblical? If so, in what way?
It seems like ET and UR get argued back and forth and constantly pitted against each other. But this third option seems to get left more out of the picture.

Hi Brian - I am a believer in annihilation, or eternal destruction.  I very much agree with you observation ... I too believe there are some who so embrace evil and so hate the Light, that they would rather be destroyed and it would not be loving at all to force them into His presence. 

"Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

I didn't come here to argue with people, but I would be happy to discuss this and clarify what I believe if anyone has questions. 

Quote from: Doc on January 21, 2009, 08:53:25 PM
Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Scripture IS clear that death will be destroyed. When and how? When it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What/who else goes into the Lake of Fire? Those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

IMHO, if death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, so are those who are also thrown in. No where does it say that all people "go through" the Lake of Fire, so I do not believe the argument some make that "this life" is the lake of fire.

Rev 10
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2010, 10:10:16 PM
Guys I think we need to be careful not to correlate current Jewish teachings on Gehenna with those of the first century.  I would love to read about first century Jewish beliefs on Gehenna.  I know the Pharisees of that time believed in reincarnation for instance.  I would like to think that Jesus would use a metaphor that would be understood by those of that time.

Hi Shawn - in the Catholic Bible are the books of Macabees.  Catholics consider them to be inspired scripture; other Christians consider them to be historical books, but not inspired.  They are found in many older KJV Bibles.

Either way, whether inspired or historical, here is a passage that I think is significant to this discussion.  In this passage, a young man is being tortured to death unless he denounces God.  This is his reply:

14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."

Yeah the devil is also thrown into the lake of fire, but God did not die for the devil, only for men.

Yes, LS, this can be a good discussion, as long as everyone's loving and presents as "as I understand/IMO".  

Re: your point TT - did Jesus die for the "other" angels/messengers?  Or are they (including satan) in a "different category"/lineage than the Adamic nature for which Jesus' sacrifice was required?   :dunno2:

Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2010, 01:57:38 AM
Yes, LS, this can be a good discussion, as long as everyone's loving and presents as "as I understand/IMO".  

Re: your point TT - did Jesus die for the "other" angels/messengers?  Or are they (including satan) in a "different category"/lineage than the Adamic nature for which Jesus' sacrifice was required?   :dunno2:

I hear you   :thumbsup:

Hi thinktank ... I'm not sure if you are saying no "men" go into the lake of fire, only the devil? But I don't think that is the case, considering the previous passages in context:

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It appears to me to be speaking specifically about the judgement of man.

Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2010, 01:57:38 AM
Yes, LS, this can be a good discussion, as long as everyone's loving and presents as "as I understand/IMO".  

Re: your point TT - did Jesus die for the "other" angels/messengers?  Or are they (including satan) in a "different category"/lineage than the Adamic nature for which Jesus' sacrifice was required?   :dunno2:

The bible seems to indicate that as in Adam all die but all in Christ shall be made alive. Also the first man is of the earth, but the second man is the lord from heaven. Both Adam and Jesus are men but there is no equivalent sacrifice for the fallen angels :2c:

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 02:02:50 AM

Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2010, 01:57:38 AM
Yes, LS, this can be a good discussion, as long as everyone's loving and presents as "as I understand/IMO".  

Re: your point TT - did Jesus die for the "other" angels/messengers?  Or are they (including satan) in a "different category"/lineage than the Adamic nature for which Jesus' sacrifice was required?   :dunno2:

I hear you   :thumbsup:

Hi thinktank ... I'm not sure if you are saying no "men" go into the lake of fire, only the devil? But I don't think that is the case, considering the previous passages in context:

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It appears to me to be speaking specifically about the judgement of man.

Hello Ls nice to meet you, the thing that confuses me about that part is that those who have done good will be given life. The question is how does one do good? Is it belief in Jesus or does it mean things such as people who help out their neighbour. The problem is, if people are saved by their good works, not belief in Jesus, then it contradicts what other passages say in the bible.

I did belive at one point that the lake of fire were for the demons and angels who were/are in the abyss, (the same book talks about angels chained up in the abyss) for Jesus says, 'no ye not that ye shall judge angels' but as you said the passage does indicate that it is man who are being judged.

Quote from: thinktank on July 03, 2010, 02:16:20 AM
Hello Ls nice to meet you, the thing that confuses me about that part is that those who have done good will be given life. The question is how does one do good? Is it belief in Jesus or does it mean things such as people who help out their neighbour. The problem is, if people are saved by their good works, not belief in Jesus, then it contradicts what other passages say in the bible.

I did belive at one point that the lake of fire were for the demons and angels who were/are in the abyss, (the same book talks about angels chained up in the abyss) for Jesus says, 'no ye not that ye shall judge angels' but as you said the passage does indicate that it is man who are being judged.

It's very nice to meet you too :)

I don't think that works save us, but I do believe our works factor in to how we are judged.

My own personal belief is that all believers are saved, John 3:16

I also believe that Romans 2:11-16 explain that those who haven't heard of God but still follow the law written on their hearts, will be judged accordingly.  I think this judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46.  I think this is judgment of "the world," people who didn't know Jesus.

But still, I think there are those who embrace evil and turn themselves over to it, and those are not saved.

That's a basic outline of my beliefs, if that helps. 

Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2010, 05:36:44 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 25, 2010, 04:51:58 PM

Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2010, 04:42:47 PMWith that said, I see no Biblical evidence that we will get a chance to accept Jesus AFTER death.

Every knee will and confess....
Every person that kneels accepts Jesus. The person who accepts Jesus is saved.
No time limit.

If we are intellectually honest...we must realize that could mean many things.  And that UR interpretation of that verse doesn't fit with the large bulk of scripture.

(1) --- Where is it noted ANYWHERE in the Scripture that "CHANCE" is  AT ALL, involved in Salvation?  Name me ONE VERSE...  :dontknow:

(2) --- No offense bro, but your last remark here is just so many words, that really don't say anything substancial...  and,

What does "intellectual honesty" have to do with anything?  The SCRIPTURES say (in 3 places -- NT/OT --> Phil 2:10-11 -- Rom 14:11 -- Isaiah 45:23) that EVERY KNEE shall bow and EVERY TONGUE confesses CHRIST... what is in any way, "dishonest" about that when considered in the observation of UR?  NOTHING is impossible with God... especially SALVATION...

(3) --- What... "large bulk" of Scripture? ...how about naming at least A FEW portions of this "bulk"?

Let's discuss what the WORD says, about this...   :dbook:  :dontknow:

One thing I really like Willi, that I believe is OFTEN (if not always overlooked,  is that "no one can confess Jesus as Lord except IN the Holy Spirit".  Not BY, as the AV and others state.  It's IN the Holy Spirit.  To me that's a strong point that's often not seen.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2010, 06:06:46 AM
One thing I really like Willi, that I believe is OFTEN (if not always overlooked,  is that "no one can confess Jesus as Lord except IN the Holy Spirit".  Not BY, as the AV and others state.  It's IN the Holy Spirit.  To me that's a strong point that's often not seen.  :thumbsup:

That and virtually every instance of someone trying to refute philippians will leave out the confess Jesus as Lord to the Glory of the Father.


In almost every case they just use the reference to bowing.

When they do try to use Bowing and confessing they add words that are not in the passage and they still Dance around in their so called rebuttles how that is "To the Glory of God the Father"  they pretty much stay silent on that one.

they try to do this by saying  "Sure, they do this in a last ditch effort to save themselves when they realize how much they screwed up"

In every case they contradict scripture every time.

In the bible it says to call upon the name of the Lord and WHAT?   WHAT?


Ro 10:13 For everyone, whoever should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved.



I've tried in the past when I was defending the teachings I was raised with, when the idea of God saving all mankind was introduced to me, when my doctrines and arguments were being shattered one by one.

I tried all the arguments, all the cliches, all the words and they all contradict scripture.

It just cannot be done.

willieH: Hi LS... :hithere:

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 01:28:49 AM

Quote from: Doc on January 21, 2009, 08:53:25 PM
Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Scripture IS clear that death will be destroyed. When and how? When it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What/who else goes into the Lake of Fire? Those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

ALL names are not "found" written in the book of LIFE... for ALL (which are "cast" into THIS REALM) -- DIE in ADAM... but are found written in the book of Life... restored, by the resurrected LIFE of CHRIST which tasted and destroyed [spiritual] DEATH for ALL -- Heb 2:9

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 01:28:49 AMIMHO, if death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, so are those who are also thrown in. No where does it say that all people "go through" the Lake of Fire, so I do not believe the argument some make that "this life" is the lake of fire.

DEATH was destroyed by CHRIST... in resurrection... as Paul notes -- O DEATH where is thy sting, O grave where is thy VICTORY? ...the VICTORY of LIFE over DEATH, and destruction of it, was done by CHRIST, and took place here and NOW.

I think the biggest problem with understanding the "Lake of FIRE"... is WHAT it is and WHEN it is...  :Chinscratch:

Most everyone percieves it to be AFTER this REALM... when JESUS plainly stated that ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD -- John 12:31

NOW is the JUDGMENT, ...NOW it the ACCEPTED TIME, ...NOW is the day of SALVATION... now, now, now...  :dontknow:  How many times must the GOD of NOW  ["I AM"] ,tell us of Himself before we listen?  :dontknow:

It appears that you observe (as do most) that the "FIRE" as mentioned in the "Revelation of the JESUS CHRIST [the WORD], as one which is "LITERAL"... which "FIRE" ONLY appears named within this book of SYMBOLISM... and is totally dedicated to the REVEALING of the SPIRITUAL REALITY... known as JESUS CHRIST...

Paul noted that we are not to observe [know] CHRIST (nor any other man) after the flesh (as a man) -- 2 Cor 5:16  

GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29
We are presently --- IN HIM -- Acts 17:28

That which is IN HIM, is within a CONSUMING FIRE...

HOLY and SPIRITUAL FIRE, consumes UNHOLINESS... which is that which predominates the existence of Humanity... until it has CONSUMED the tainted LIFE of each individual experience...

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 01:28:49 AMRev 10
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

ALL MEN die in Adam, and RETURN to an NON-LIVING state -- Gen 3:19 -- this occurs for EACH human being, during each individual experience WITHIN THIS REALM... DEATH and HADES [grave] are present for EACH human, and definitely within THIS REALM.

Irregardless of your or my perceptions of what is BEYOND this realm, ...which perceptions are not KNOWN ABSOLUTELY...

What IS -- ABSOLUTELY KNOWN by each of us, is that EACH human WILL die and enter the state of the GRAVE which engulfs each man in DEATH.

THIS life IS the LOF... and it was WITHIN ...THIS LIFE, that "DEATH" and its comrade, the  "GRAVE" ARE destroyed IN and by the RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST... which MAKES ALL ALIVE:

1 Cor 15:22 --  AS in Adam ALL DIE [grave] even so IN ...CHRIST [didya get that IN CHRIST] shall ALL [same "all"] be ...MADE... ALIVE...

It is life -- John 14:6 -- JESUS CHRIST --  which DESTROYS the "partners" of "death" and the "grave" ... and THAT was accomplished at the Cross, by CHRIST -- WITHIN THIS LIFE, and within THIS REALM -- Rev 3:18 --- in which ALL [in due time] are ...MADE... alive... by the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY of this REALM -- John 6:44 -- John 12:48

At that time, ALL those who did not confess, and bow while living in THIS REALM... shall DO SO in resurrection... to the GLORY of YHVH and His Son, JESUS CHRIST...

The WORD makes ALL things that are "MADE" -- John 1:3 -- and there is NOTHING that is "MADE" without the WORD... including ALL that DIE in Adam which shall be ...MADE... alive!!!  :boogie:

:Peace:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 03, 2010, 06:44:22 AM

Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2010, 06:06:46 AM
One thing I really like Willi, that I believe is OFTEN (if not always overlooked,  is that "no one can confess Jesus as Lord except IN the Holy Spirit".  Not BY, as the AV and others state.  It's IN the Holy Spirit.  To me that's a strong point that's often not seen.  :thumbsup:

That and virtually every instance of someone trying to refute philippians will leave out the confess Jesus as Lord to the Glory of the Father.


In almost every case they just use the reference to bowing.

When they do try to use Bowing and confessing they add words that are not in the passage and they still Dance around in their so called rebuttles how that is "To the Glory of God the Father"  they pretty much stay silent on that one.

they try to do this by saying  "Sure, they do this in a last ditch effort to save themselves when they realize how much they screwed up"

In every case they contradict scripture every time.

In the bible it says to call upon the name of the Lord and WHAT?   WHAT?


Ro 10:13 For everyone, whoever should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved.



I've tried in the past when I was defending the teachings I was raised with, when the idea of God saving all mankind was introduced to me, when my doctrines and arguments were being shattered one by one.

I tried all the arguments, all the cliches, all the words and they all contradict scripture.

It just cannot be done.

:goodpost:

Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2010, 06:06:46 AM
One thing I really like Willi, that I believe is OFTEN (if not always overlooked,  is that "no one can confess Jesus as Lord except IN the Holy Spirit".  Not BY, as the AV and others state.  It's IN the Holy Spirit.  To me that's a strong point that's often not seen.  :thumbsup:

I agree brother... Many overlook that Scripture says that ONLY by the HOLY SPIRIT, is one able to CONFESS JESUS CHRIST as LORD -- 1 Cor 12:2

So such a confession is an ACT of GOD upon a man's lips, brought forth by the Heart which He has also CHANGED...  the SAVING confession made, is not generated by US... we need the HOLY SPIRIT to act upon us... Our lips are frozen without Him...  :laughing7:

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 02:36:20 AM

Quote from: thinktank on July 03, 2010, 02:16:20 AM
Hello Ls nice to meet you, the thing that confuses me about that part is that those who have done good will be given life. The question is how does one do good? Is it belief in Jesus or does it mean things such as people who help out their neighbour. The problem is, if people are saved by their good works, not belief in Jesus, then it contradicts what other passages say in the bible.

I did belive at one point that the lake of fire were for the demons and angels who were/are in the abyss, (the same book talks about angels chained up in the abyss) for Jesus says, 'no ye not that ye shall judge angels' but as you said the passage does indicate that it is man who are being judged.

It's very nice to meet you too :)

I don't think that works save us, but I do believe our works factor in to how we are judged.

My own personal belief is that all believers are saved, John 3:16

I also believe that Romans 2:11-16 explain that those who haven't heard of God but still follow the law written on their hearts, will be judged accordingly.  I think this judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46.  I think this is judgment of "the world," people who didn't know Jesus.

But still, I think there are those who embrace evil and turn themselves over to it, and those are not saved.

That's a basic outline of my beliefs, if that helps. 

This is personally how I see scripture on this subject.

willieH: Hi LS... :hithere:

:Peace:

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 01:25:06 AM
Hi Brian - I am a believer in annihilation [which is MURDER], or eternal destruction.  I very much agree with you observation ... I too believe there are some who so embrace evil and so hate the Light, that they would rather be destroyed and it would not be loving at all to force them into His presence.

FIRST --- Name one person (that is a Christian) that you personally know that was FORCED -- to BOW at the knee and CONFESS with the tongue? 

I have been a believer for 34 years and have been involved in MANY, MANY ministries, meetings, conferences, and seminars and NEVER ONCE, have I ever witnessed GOD "forcing" men and women to their knees... and prying their lips open with the name of JESUS CHRIST...  Have you?  :laughing7:  So if NO Christians have ever been "forced" to do these things, what makes you think it shall be otherwise for the rest of humanity, as they do this? -- Phil 2:10-11 -- Isaiah 45:23 -- Rom 14:11

SECOND --- You say that the "EVIL" ones would rather DIE than grab an opportunity to LIVE? How unrealistic! --- I BEG TO DIFFER:

Take 10 Christians and 10 Of other religions and 10 [non-believing] Athiests or criminals  (pretty much the current general composition of the world... and dump them ALL in the middle of the Ocean... and see how many of these shall fight to remain alive...  I'm betting ALL, 30 of them, What number do you project? . 

Not only that, but the 20 which do not believe in CHRIST, will FIGHT JUST as HARD as the "Christians", ...NOT just give in, and "DROWN" than continue to fight for LIFE, in the hope to go on living...  :mshock: 

And when the "CHRISTIAN boat" comes by... they shall say... "NO THANKS we would RATHER DIE than get on board..."  :mshock:  Are you serious? :dunno:  Have you rationally thought this through?  :Chinscratch:

ALL have embraced EVIL to different degrees dependent upon country lived in, parents, environment, wealth, poverty, etc...  And NOT ONE has ever just dropped their EVIL without the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, ...done by JESUS CHRIST -- Heb 12:2 -- while amidst that "evil"...  :dontknow:

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 01:25:06 AM"Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Whoever lives by the TRUTH was FOREORDAINED by GOD to do so:  Eph 2:10 -- not because they woke up one day, and out the "clear blue sky" they decided to --- stop chasing women, smoking, drinking, cussing, writing bad checks, ...whatever...  :dontknow: -- Get real!

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 01:25:06 AMI didn't come here to argue with people, but I would be happy to discuss this and clarify what I believe if anyone has questions. 

I hope that's really the case, [new brother/sister?] LS... for the Scripture PLAINLY states that coming to GOD is NOT generated "of MAN" nor is it within HIS ABILITY to do so -------------> John 6:44 -- Rom 12:3 -- Heb 12:2 -- Matt 11:27 -- and until GOD generates these things by LEADING us to His WORD -- Rom 2:4 -- then the HEART of Man remains, the most deceitful thing in existence within the Creation -- Jer 17:9 --  :dontknow:

As the "bubblegum" thief, ...ERRONEOUSLY thinks he has the right to "judge" Hitler... when both ("little bubblegum sins", and  "BIG MURDER SINS") EACH had their individual parts in the Hammer & nails which Put CHRIST to death for those SINS... :rolleye:

To observe HITLERS act in burning to death the JEWS [ANNHILATION of them] as "SIN"

And then propose the very same ACT = burning to death the JEWS and everyone else which has not "believed" [ANNHILATION of them] as "HOLY"

Is nothing but DOUBLE TALK.  (btw, I was an SDA for 5 YEARS, which teach this AWFUL and  dispicable doctrine (which is nothing but an "abbreviated or shortened" version of ET/Hell) ...

Which was DISPICABLE and ATROCIOUS when Hitler MURDERED... and contains the very SAME MURDEROUS -- ATROUCIOUSNESS" -- in proposing GOD shall do it...  :thumbdown:

These kind of teachings are why MOST of the World does not regard Christianity as from and OF, ...GOD...  :sigh:  Thinking it to be DOUBLETALK and HYPOCRISY... which, in fact, ...it IS...   :pitiful:

Quote from: willieH on July 08, 2010, 08:28:45 AM
willieH: Hi LS... :hithere:

:Peace:

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 01:25:06 AM


Is nothing but DOUBLE TALK.  (btw, I was an SDA for 5 YEARS, which teach this AWFUL and  dispicable doctrine (which is nothing but an "abbreviated or shortened" version of ET/Hell) ...

Which was DISPICABLE and ATROCIOUS when Hitler MURDERED... and contains the very SAME MURDEROUS -- ATROUCIOUSNESS" -- in proposing GOD shall do it...  :thumbdown:

These kind of teachings are why MOST of the World does not regard Christianity as from and OF, ...GOD...  :sigh:  Thinking it to be DOUBLETALK and HYPOCRISY... which, in fact, ...it IS...   :pitiful:

Out of interest how come you say then that God set up Hitlers government, aren't you preaching the very same thing that you are against :dontknow:

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :happygrin:

Quote from: willieH on July 08, 2010, 08:28:45 AM
willieH: Hi LS... :hithere:

:Peace:

... Is nothing but DOUBLE TALK.  (btw, I was an SDA for 5 YEARS, which teach this AWFUL and  dispicable doctrine (which is nothing but an "abbreviated or shortened" version of ET/Hell) ...

Which was DISPICABLE and ATROCIOUS when Hitler MURDERED... and contains the very SAME MURDEROUS -- ATROUCIOUSNESS" -- in proposing GOD shall do it...  :thumbdown:

These kind of teachings are why MOST of the World does not regard Christianity as from and OF, ...GOD...  :sigh:  Thinking it to be DOUBLETALK and HYPOCRISY... which, in fact, ...it IS...   :pitiful:

Quote from: thinktank on July 08, 2010, 06:45:08 PMOut of interest how come you say then that God set up Hitlers government, aren't you preaching the very same thing that you are against :dontknow:

It cracks me up  :laughing7: and yet, ...saddens me at the same time  :crywipe:  ...How the Christian community, which proudly and OFTEN barks "God is IN CONTROL"...   Turn their other [double-talking] face to the world, and agree with their [the world's] confusion (even Athiests percieve they have "free will"), by saying the opposite:  "but we ALL have FREE WILL... "

GOD cannot be "IN CONTROL" (as the CONTROLLING entity) and men also maintain "FREE WILL" (as the CONTROLLING entity)...

If you and I are both IN the car, and I have the steering wheel in my hands, and am  steering the car...  YOU cannot claim that you are also "steering" the car, simply upon the basis that you are IN the car... :rolleye:  Only ONE can steer the car... Only ONE is "IN CONTROL"...

GOD is SOVEREIGN over ALL things in His Creation... And because of HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of them and THEIR PURPOSE within that FOREKNOWLEDGE, There is PURPOSE that is found in EVERYTHING which occurs under the sun -- Ecc 3:1-8  Repetition of the VAIN ATROCITIES enacted by men, ...by GOD is NOT His agenda... PEACE, LOVE, FORGIVENESS and GRACE are His agenda...

ALL the doings of MAN (aside from CHRIST -- 1 Cor 3:11-15) ...are VANITY... Ecc 1:14 -- ALL VANITY shall have its LIVING moment in this realm, then disappear as a living entity, yet remain as EXPERIENTIAL knowledge forever... for GOD's KNOWS GOOD and EVIL -- Gen 3:19 -- and GOD is an UNCHANGING entity.

Any mouth that preaches that the acts of HITLER were HEINOUS and ATROCIOUS, and then also preaches that GOD shall REPEAT them [the vain activities of men]... is attaching the VAIN act of the finite and SINFUL HITLER (when GOD is concluding the acts of men = ANNHILATION), to the HOLY ETERNAL one as equally VAIN... And thereby cannot see the Creator, nor His PURPOSE...

GOD sets up [ordains] ALL GOVERNMENTS:

Rom 13:1 -- Let EVERY soul be subject unto the HIGHER powers.  For there is NO POWER but OF GOD... the POWERS that BE are ORDAINED of GOD...

Which included raising PHARAOH -- Rom 9:17 -- to not only IMPRISON the JEWS (continuing to bring death to many of them within their SLAVERY) but, was also on SEVERAL OCCASIONS, involved in Pharoah's OBSTINATE refusals to release those PRISONERS (some of which were continuing to DIE in their SLAVERY)...  :dontknow:

PHARAOH is the picture of MAN ...enslaved... by SIN... which [pharoah/sin] is ORDAINED by GOD to enslave...  :dontknow:  It is DELIVERANCE from the ENSLAVEMENT, that indeed GLORIFIED GOD... and neither PHARAOH [the imprisoner] or MOSES [the cry to be FREED] decided WHEN and HOW that DELIVERANCE would occur...  Rather, ALL of this was within the DECISION of YHVH...

GOD knew what both, PHARAOH and HITLER would DO, and yet brought them forth ANYWAY... and then stood by, exempting Himself from intervention of their deeds...

Why pray-tell would you deduce was HIS thinking?  Or is it your thought, that He brought them forth to ANGER Himself?   :mshock:

Do you do this?  Create scenarios to anger yourself?  This consideration itself is foolish... there is more to it than that, ...do you know what it is, T-tank?

Btw... no rush, but ...I have yet to read your answer to my question of you in the "LOF" thread:

"What is GOD's PURPOSE in creating the EARTH and this entire scenario in which we find ourselves?"   :dontknow:

If God were going to liquidate some number of people in the end, you'd be hard-pressed, I think, to square such an idea with Paul's definition of Godly love.

When the apostle says that love "never fails", he's not referring to failure as we generally use that English word today. What he means is that Godly love never fails to be in effect or in action. In short, Godly love, once directed, never ceases. When you couple that with the other ways Paul describes love... that it is patient, kind, not out for itself but out for the one who is loved, etc.... it is virtually inconceivable that God could or would annihilate a single object of His love, let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest. If He did, then what Paul wrote was essentially meaningless puffery and platitude.

I don't think so. I believe the Father sent the Son into this world to save us... all of us... because He loves us... all of us.

Blessings,

Andy

Quote from: pickr on July 09, 2010, 03:17:42 AM
let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest

Hi pickr - speaking for myself, I do not believe it will be "multitudes" who are utterly destroyed, but that's only my opinion.  I understand your reasoning, but for me the sheer number of passages that say the wicked are destroyed or perish or "are no more" is simply overwhelming.  I just wanted to clarify that on my part, and mean you no disrespect.   :mblush:

Quote from: LS on July 09, 2010, 04:34:41 AM

Quote from: pickr on July 09, 2010, 03:17:42 AM
let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest

Hi pickr - speaking for myself, I do not believe it will be "multitudes" who are utterly destroyed, but that's only my opinion.  I understand your reasoning, but for me the sheer number of passages that say the wicked are destroyed or perish or "are no more" is simply overwhelming.  I just wanted to clarify that on my part, and mean you no disrespect.   :mblush:

That's hard for me to get around as well.  I wish for UR but lean towards ED mainly because of the vast number of scriptures talking about the destruction of the wicked.  It certainly could figurative...and a purificiation process but I don't see a significant scriptural support for it.  If there is a purification process...it's not announced with trumpets in the Bible.  I will say this though...I think God does hide some of his intent.  I think God will reward the few that are diligent to seek it out.  If the UR guys are a group that uncovered God's great plan of salvation hidden under years of man made dogma...wow.

Quote from: shawn on July 09, 2010, 05:09:55 AM
That's hard for me to get around as well.  I wish for UR but lean towards ED mainly because of the vast number of scriptures talking about the destruction of the wicked.  It certainly could figurative...and a purificiation process but I don't see a significant scriptural support for it.  If there is a purification process...it's not announced with trumpets in the Bible.  I will say this though...I think God does hide some of his intent.  I think God will reward the few that are diligent to seek it out.  If the UR guys are a group that uncovered God's great plan of salvation hidden under years of man made dogma...wow.

From my studies, which include reading at this site for several years now. I honestly just don't believe that scripture teaches UR.  There is one passage that leaves the door for UR open, to me - and surprisingly it isn't one that I've ever seen people use - but I'm happy to leave that door open. 

and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.  Col 1:20   :bigGrin:

When one door closes, another opens; but often we look at the
closed door and do not see the one which was opened for us. :coffee2:

(http://dl10.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1560/1560000qssjerxaq2.jpg) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
Dog Gone It!

 :cloud9: The wicked are removed, but it's the wicked things in us (tares planted while we slept-Adam went to sleep but was not awakened until Christ). Judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Know ye not ye are the temple.....Blessings....

Who are the wicked?


Malachi 4
The Great Day of the LORD
1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.



"evildoers" [all that do]  "wickedly"

H7564
רשׁעה
rish‛âh
rish-aw'
Feminine of H7562; wrong (especially moral): - fault, wickedly (-ness).


H7562
רשׁע
resha‛
reh'-shah
From H7561; a wrong (especially moral): - iniquity, wicked(-ness).


H7561
רשׁע
râsha‛
raw-shah'
A primitive root; to be (causatively do or declare) wrong; by implication to disturb, violate: - condemn, make trouble, vex, be (commit, deal, depart, do) wicked (-ly, -ness).



Jeremiah 50:31
Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.



Proverbs 10:30
The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.


"the wicked"

H7563
רשׁע
râshâ‛
raw-shaw'
From H7561; morally wrong; concretely an (actively) bad person: -  + condemned, guilty, ungodly, wicked (man), that did wrong.




"inhabit" [the earth]

H7931
שׁכן
shâkan
shaw-kan'
A primitive root (apparently akin (by transmutation) to H7901 through the idea of lodging; compare H5531 and H7925); to reside or permanently stay (literally or figuratively): - abide, continue, (cause to, make to) dwell (-er), have habitation, inhabit, lay, place, (cause to) remain, rest, set (up).



Psalm 37:20

20But the wicked will perish;
   the enemies of the LORD are like the glory of the pastures;
   they vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

Quote from: Cardinal on July 09, 2010, 06:31:50 AM
:cloud9: The wicked are removed, but it's the wicked things in us (tares planted while we slept-Adam went to sleep but was not awakened until Christ). Judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Know ye not ye are the temple.....Blessings....

:thumbsup:  Anything not of God destroyed, as by fire, so the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

I also believe many, many verses that are used to attempt to show God's "eternal" punishments (including ET or even ED) actually are taken out of context.  I believe many of those verses in the OT, as well as even some in the New, have to do with temporal, earthly punishments and consequences, rather than "eternal" ones.  Many of them having to do with the wicked being removed, destroyed, etc. have to do with different periods in Israel's history, including even the judgments of 70 AD.  

IMO, we the church, often make terrible doctrinal messes by ignoring contexts and primary intended audiance, while building doctrines on things the scriptures really aren't saying.  Why, if we're not careful, we could end up with a whole lot of different denominations or something.  What?  Oh, never mind.   :mblush:

Though it's not easy and we need it revealed to us, IMO, we need to always attempt to carefully rightly divide the Word of Truth.   :2c:

 :cloud9:  :grin: Exactly.....there's a microcosm and a macrocosm to the Word, and we have to look at both. Blessings...

I appreciate all of the gentle replies!  I am aware of this line of thought ...

Quote from: Cardinal on July 09, 2010, 06:31:50 AM
:cloud9: The wicked are removed, but it's the wicked things in us (tares planted while we slept-Adam went to sleep but was not awakened until Christ). Judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Know ye not ye are the temple.....Blessings....

Quote from: jabcat on July 09, 2010, 08:21:30 AM
  :thumbsup:  Anything not of God destroyed, as by fire, so the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

... and truthfully, I can see how some passages that speak of destroying the wicked could mean the wicked "things" within and not the person.  (I don't think it's a given, but I can understand that view).

But there are other more forceful passages that to me, refer to the individual. The very soul can die:

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

and similarly: Jas 5:20  he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death

This (to me) is clearly speaking of the person, not a thing within:

Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
       who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
       signals with his feet
       and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
       he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
       he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.

And passages such as this specify certain people will obtain resurrection, but it doesn't say all will and I think it is speaking of individuals and not things within us (as those things we wouldn't expect to give in marriage, etc):
Luk 20:35  But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luk 20:36  Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

These are just some examples to explain why I don't see it the way you do.   I want to be respectful of this board and its members - I have learned a lot reading here and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss a few things with you all.  :HeartThrob:

a good read:


www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW5.htm


an excerpt:

The "annihilationist" has another scheme. He is going to have a few men of his own persuasion to be saved, and then after such-and-such has happened, all the rest of mankind are to be simply blotted out of existence. They will simply cease to exist! That is his idea of the penalty for sin. To the annihilationist the wages of sin is ETERNAL DEATH. But that is not what the Word says! The Bible nowhere speaks of "eternal death." God did not say to Adam, "In the day that you eat thereof you shall surely eternally die." The record does not state that "the wages of sin is eternal death." It does not say that "the soul that sins, it shall die forever." To the contrary, it points to the END of death for "The last enemy that shall be destroyed  is DEATH" (I Cor. 15:26), and the beloved apostle John, banished to the barren Isle of Patmos for the Word of God heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be NO MORE DEATH ... for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:3-4). But again, wages of sin were utter annihilation, or eternal death, then there is if the no hope for anyone. For Jesus was not annihilated! He did not stay dead for ever! If annihilation is the penalty for sin, then every son of Adam, saved or lost, must yet suffer his own penalty and be blotted out of existence for evermore. Then Jesus never saved anyone from anything. And then we all might as well enjoy this world to the full; for it is the only life and existence that any of us will ever know!

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 09, 2010, 04:43:34 PM
The "annihilationist" has another scheme. He is going to have a few men of his own persuasion to be saved, and then after such-and-such has happened, all the rest of mankind are to be simply blotted out of existence. They will simply cease to exist!

Hi Beloved ... my belief in eternal destruction is not a "scheme;" it is simply what I believe scripture teaches as the LORD has led me on my own journey.  I personally don't believe it will be "few" (I think most are saved) but that is just my opinion. I also don't think only those of my "own persuasion" are saved.

As I posted earlier:

QuoteMy own personal belief is that all believers are saved, John 3:16

I also believe that Romans 2:11-16 explain that those who haven't heard of God but still follow the law written on their hearts, will be judged accordingly.  I think this judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46.  I think this is judgment of "the world," people who didn't know Jesus.

But still, I think there are those who embrace evil and turn themselves over to it, and those are not saved.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 24, 2010, 07:54:39 AM



Saul of Tarsus was annihilated.

i love it!!

Hi LS,

Dear one, the post was not directed at you personally, it is just a reply to the topic of the thread.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAPXWZv4b7I&feature=related
             

Quote from: chuckt on July 09, 2010, 05:20:37 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 24, 2010, 07:54:39 AM



Saul of Tarsus was annihilated.

i love it!!

He sure was.
And blinded by the Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ to all the things of the world so that now all he could see was Christ Risen.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 09, 2010, 04:43:34 PM
a good read:


www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW5.htm


an excerpt:

The "annihilationist" has another scheme. He is going to have a few men of his own persuasion to be saved, and then after such-and-such has happened, all the rest of mankind are to be simply blotted out of existence. They will simply cease to exist! That is his idea of the penalty for sin. To the annihilationist the wages of sin is ETERNAL DEATH. But that is not what the Word says! The Bible nowhere speaks of "eternal death." God did not say to Adam, "In the day that you eat thereof you shall surely eternally die." The record does not state that "the wages of sin is eternal death." It does not say that "the soul that sins, it shall die forever." To the contrary, it points to the END of death for "The last enemy that shall be destroyed  is DEATH" (I Cor. 15:26), and the beloved apostle John, banished to the barren Isle of Patmos for the Word of God heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be NO MORE DEATH ... for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:3-4). But again, wages of sin were utter annihilation, or eternal death, then there is if the no hope for anyone. For Jesus was not annihilated! He did not stay dead for ever! If annihilation is the penalty for sin, then every son of Adam, saved or lost, must yet suffer his own penalty and be blotted out of existence for evermore. Then Jesus never saved anyone from anything. And then we all might as well enjoy this world to the full; for it is the only life and existence that any of us will ever know!

I think it to be intellectually honest and gentle in our replies to not make assumptions about the person due to our interpretation of scripture.  While I think the Bible has more support for ED I leave the door open to various interpretations.  Those who believe in ED punish no one by extermination.  They are not the bearer of the sword.  They are not the judge.  When I read passages like the one above...I am reminded of this passage.

Romans 9

14What shall we say then?(W) Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses,(X) "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,(Y) "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For(Z) who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man,(AA) to answer back to God?(AB) Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21(AC) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump(AD) one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience(AE) vessels of wrath(AF) prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known(AG) the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he(AH) has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he(AI) has called.

But, are we really putting other interpretations/interpreters on trial?  20But who are you, O man,(AA) to answer back to God?  What if ED is the proper interpretation and UR guys just can't wrap their finite minds around the concept?  If that is the case...it's God and his judgement that are being placed on trial.  I am not willing to do that.  I try to stay humble through my studies and not assume I can ever fully understand the ways of God.  If God built some vessels for destruction in order that believers might know his goodness...then so be it.  Who am I to argue?  If he chooses to save all mankind...I'm sure I will rejoice in the streets of heaven.  I doubt I will ever understand ET...but that isn't a prerequisite of God's judgement.  I don't have to understand it...for it to be true.  I don't have to agree with it.  And I certainly won't place those who believe it...or God on trial.

Quote from: shawn link=topic=3941.msg98653#msg98653be I think it to be intellectually honest and gentle in our replies to not make assumptions about the person due to our interpretation of scripture.  

:thumbsup:  Excellent post, Shawn; your entire post expressed something I believe deeply for all of us, for all topics. Thank you!

Take 10 Christians and 10 Of other religions and 10 [non-believing] Athiests or criminals  (pretty much the current general composition of the world... and dump them ALL in the middle of the Ocean... and see how many of these shall fight to remain alive...  I'm betting ALL, 30 of them, What number do you project? .

Not only that, but the 20 which do not believe in CHRIST, will FIGHT JUST as HARD as the "Christians", ...NOT just give in, and "DROWN" than continue to fight for LIFE, in the hope to go on living...  Mshock

And when the "CHRISTIAN boat" comes by... they shall say... "NO THANKS we would RATHER DIE than get on board..."  Mshock  Are you serious? dunno  Have you rationally thought this through?



Those are still average joeys though.

If the antichrist was in the sea though he would climb aboard the christian boat and then stab those aboard the christian boat. Wait for those 10 christians to come upon the boat, stab them.

wait for the aethists, then stab them

wait for the 10 from the other religions and then make them his slaves.
:icon_joker:

No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2700.0

Thank you Beloved Servant   :thumbsup:

QuoteHi Brian - I am a believer in annihilation [which is MURDER], or eternal destruction.  I very much agree with you observation ... I too believe there are some who so embrace evil and so hate the Light, that they would rather be destroyed and it would not be loving at all to force them into His presence.

I can see where you are coming from here up to a point, however, these people were FORCED into existence in the first place, IOW no one CHOSE to be born, my own personal preference had I been given a choice would be never to have come into existence in the first place, so in some ways annihilation appeals to me more than UR, the thought of existing forever is scary and I've seen for myself that most people do not want to spend eternity praising God (myself included), however, that doesn't mean that we want to be tortured forever either, so the ED option gives those of us who don't want to live forever a way out

QuoteGOD knew what both, PHARAOH and HITLER would DO, and yet brought them forth ANYWAY... and then stood by, exempting Himself from intervention of their deeds...

"What is GOD's PURPOSE in creating the EARTH and this entire scenario in which we find ourselves?"

This is the problem I'm finding myself facing, even although what you propose is a trillion, billion times better than the so called "gospel of christendom", it doesn't explain why it had to be created this way in the first place, we are born without our will or consent into a wicked world of tears and suffering, whilst God stands back and watches it all unfold and does nothing, yet orthodox christendom wants to deflect the blame onto us, some even say that most of us were created as reprobrates (unelect) which means we are born into this world with a 95% chance of being in ET forever, is it any wonder that so many people have no desire to love this God when so many people preach that he hates most of us (most try to sugarcoat it, but some of us see straight through the veneers and disguises)

With all the evil and suffering I'm seeing in this world, is it any wonder that people don't believe in an all loving and benevolent God or want to spend an eternity with him, basically this life is a sham and a cruel farce anyway and we are just puppets on a string

The problem is there are many different christian viewpoints, how are we supposed to know which one is right, TBH none of them sound appealing to me personally, although I must admit that the universalist God is the best option of them all, I just don't see it though

QuoteFrom my studies, which include reading at this site for several years now. I honestly just don't believe that scripture teaches UR.

I'm inclined to agree with you there...however God being all knowing forsaw it all and allowed this to happen anyway

Quoteit is virtually inconceivable that God could or would annihilate a single object of His love, let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest. If He did, then what Paul wrote was essentially meaningless puffery and platitude.

I don't think so. I believe the Father sent the Son into this world to save us... all of us... because He loves us... all of us.

This is just the thing, I don't believe he loves all of us...only a select few here and there

Quote from: thinktank on July 09, 2010, 07:22:44 PM
No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

Moses MURDERED... Paul MURDERED... too bad for them, eh T-tank?  :pitiful:

Quote from: Shadow on July 09, 2010, 08:20:05 PM

This is just the thing, I don't believe he loves all of us...only a select few here and there

He does love all of us, he sent his son to die for the world. The problem is that we don't love him or his ways and man loves darkness more than light. But God's will is for all to be saved and none perish.

This age we live in is a world of darkness with satan as its god. We in this life choose between the tree of life, or the tree of evil. Many people in this world are held captive by Satan and God says that we go to preach the gospel and set people free. Even though there are some scriptures that talk about God setting this up and that etc. The scriptures are clear that God is looking for men to establish his kingdom upon the earth. Our prayer is 'As it is in heaven be upon the Earth.'

He comes and knocks at the door

"if any man will"

As saints we are comisioned to establish Gods rule with our weapons which be not carnal but those weapons we use are spiritual weapons, we establish the Earth by seeding the heavens with our prayers, we set the captives free, we feed the poor, we cast out demons. All this is not done in our own strength but, for 'apart from me you can't do nothing' in Christs strength.

Satan is not here by mistake he has a goal and that is to thief, kill, destroy, his cunning is so and so that he tries to outwit God, but God in his mercy takes that evil and turns it into good, because unlike the devil and men God is good and he came that we might have life and have it more in abundance.

We are here, we can either curse God or be thankfull that we have been given this glorious opportunity to know Jesus Christ as lord and saviour. In a zillion years all the holy angels will never be able to experience what life is like with sin. God said that which is forgiven most will love the most, our experience here will make us love God more than anthing else, for we tasted darkness and only by tasting it do we realize how much that we love God and his righteousness. The people rejoice when the righteous are in power, but have a heavy heart when the wicked are in power.

Quote from: thinktank on July 09, 2010, 07:22:44 PM
Take 10 Christians and 10 Of other religions and 10 [non-believing] Athiests or criminals  (pretty much the current general composition of the world... and dump them ALL in the middle of the Ocean... and see how many of these shall fight to remain alive...  I'm betting ALL, 30 of them, What number do you project? .

Not only that, but the 20 which do not believe in CHRIST, will FIGHT JUST as HARD as the "Christians", ...NOT just give in, and "DROWN" than continue to fight for LIFE, in the hope to go on living...  Mshock

And when the "CHRISTIAN boat" comes by... they shall say... "NO THANKS we would RATHER DIE than get on board..."  Mshock  Are you serious? dunno  Have you rationally thought this through?



Those are still average joeys though.

If the antichrist was in the sea though he would climb aboard the christian boat and then stab those aboard the christian boat. Wait for those 10 christians to come upon the boat, stab them.

wait for the aethists, then stab them

wait for the 10 from the other religions and then make them his slaves.
:icon_joker:

No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

All in all, a pretty grim set of thoughts with LITTLE, ...uh... ZERO GRACE amongst them, ...abounding... Rom 5:20  :sigh:

Quote from: willieH on July 09, 2010, 09:17:43 PM

Quote from: thinktank on July 09, 2010, 07:22:44 PM
Take 10 Christians and 10 Of other religions and 10 [non-believing] Athiests or criminals  (pretty much the current general composition of the world... and dump them ALL in the middle of the Ocean... and see how many of these shall fight to remain alive...  I'm betting ALL, 30 of them, What number do you project? .

Not only that, but the 20 which do not believe in CHRIST, will FIGHT JUST as HARD as the "Christians", ...NOT just give in, and "DROWN" than continue to fight for LIFE, in the hope to go on living...  Mshock

And when the "CHRISTIAN boat" comes by... they shall say... "NO THANKS we would RATHER DIE than get on board..."  Mshock  Are you serious? dunno  Have you rationally thought this through?



Those are still average joeys though.

If the antichrist was in the sea though he would climb aboard the christian boat and then stab those aboard the christian boat. Wait for those 10 christians to come upon the boat, stab them.

wait for the aethists, then stab them

wait for the 10 from the other religions and then make them his slaves.
:icon_joker:

No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

All in all, a pretty grim set of thoughts with LITTLE, ...uh... ZERO GRACE amongst them, ...abounding... Rom 5:20  :sigh:

...willieH  :cloud9:

What are you picking at?

Who's side are you on good or evil?

Christ said your either with me or against me.

It is not our duty to say whether God will have mercy upon the antichrist, that is his judgment.

The apostle Paul and Moses repented of their sins and that what the bible requires. If the antichrist repents then he also would be saved, for it is Gods will to save all men.

Quote from: shawn on July 09, 2010, 05:09:55 AM

Quote from: LS on July 09, 2010, 04:34:41 AM

Quote from: pickr on July 09, 2010, 03:17:42 AM
let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest

Hi pickr - speaking for myself, I do not believe it will be "multitudes" who are utterly destroyed, but that's only my opinion.  I understand your reasoning, but for me the sheer number of passages that say the wicked are destroyed or perish or "are no more" is simply overwhelming.  I just wanted to clarify that on my part, and mean you no disrespect.   :mblush:

That's hard for me to get around as well.  I wish for UR but lean towards ED mainly because of the vast number of scriptures talking about the destruction of the wicked.  It certainly could figurative...and a purificiation process but I don't see a significant scriptural support for it.  If there is a purification process...it's not announced with trumpets in the Bible.  I will say this though...I think God does hide some of his intent.  I think God will reward the few that are diligent to seek it out.  If the UR guys are a group that uncovered God's great plan of salvation hidden under years of man made dogma...wow.

Saul of Tarsus was wicked,  is there any dispute in that?

One of the Christian fallacies is to depict Saul as a "special" case implying that  what happened Saul only happened to Saul and could not happen to any other being.   Why this is a fallacy is that then the account of Saul is rendered completely useless for anyone.

It would be a complete contradictioon to that assertion to say we can learn anything from Saul or the resulting PAUL since what God did was only for that one individual in all of creation.

However when we put away that ridiculousness and see what we can learn, we learn indeed that the Wicked ARE Destroyed and that is why SAUL will never enter the kingdom.

In short,  EVERYONE has a SAUL.

Quote from: chuckt on July 09, 2010, 05:20:37 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 24, 2010, 07:54:39 AM



Saul of Tarsus was annihilated.

i love it!!

:cloud9: Me too, LOL..... :thumbsup:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 09, 2010, 11:26:48 PM
In short,  EVERYONE has a SAUL.

:cloud9:  :thumbsup: Yes, they do, er, PAUL.....looks like you've already had the name change  :winkgrin: Blessings.....

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 09, 2010, 11:26:48 PM
Saul of Tarsus was wicked,  is there any dispute in that?

One of the Christian fallacies is to depict Saul as a "special" case implying that  what happened Saul only happened to Saul and could not happen to any other being.   Why this is a fallacy is that then the account of Saul is rendered completely useless for anyone.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying ... I don't dispute that Saul of Tarsus was wicked.  I'm not sure what you mean by Christian fallicies depicting Saul as a special case?  In what way?  I'm asking for clarification/understanding, not to quarrel  :bigGrin:

Quote from: thinktank on July 09, 2010, 09:28:38 PM
What are you picking at?

Who's side are you on good or evil?

I can ask you the same question...  :dontknow:  I am on the side of GOOD that SO LOVES the WORLD...

Quote from: thinktank on July 09, 2010, 09:28:38 PMChrist said your either with me or against me.

Again... If you believe SIN abounded to a greater degree, wheresoever GRACE abounded, you then indicate "who" you are "for" and "who" you are against"... I am for GRACE which is far more prevalent and POWERFUL than ANY DEGREE of AMOUNT of SIN... which TOOK it AWAY from the WORLD -- John 1:29

Quote from: thinktank on July 09, 2010, 09:28:38 PMIt is not our duty to say whether God will have mercy upon the antichrist, that is his judgment.

There is no such "being" as "antichrist", and therefore no "his judgment" exists...

It is the SPIRIT which is in OPPOSITION to TRUTH, for CHRIST is the TRUTH -- John 14:6 -- and in OPPOSITION to LIFE for CHRIST is LIFE [annhilation]

Anyone which poses opposition to these stated in the WORD about the WORD, is of the spirit of antichrist ["ANTI-TRUTH"]... MANY (not few) "believers" which call CHRIST "Lord" and COME in His NAME... shall bear INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- falsely coming IN, and "doing" works, ...IN that NAME!

Quote from: thinktank on July 09, 2010, 09:28:38 PMThe apostle Paul and Moses repented of their sins and that what the bible requires. If the antichrist repents then he also would be saved, for it is Gods will to save all men.

FIRST --- As I said, there is no "person" called the "antichrist".  This is a theological invention.

SECOND --- It is more than just God's WILL, the word as is written in 2 Pet 3:9 "not WILLING that ANY PERISH"... is BOULEMA [#G1014] which means RESOLVE / INTENT...

THIRD --- Though I certainly agree that Moses and Paul "repented" of their sins, there is no Scriptural references of this taking place.   :dontknow: 

If you have these Scriptures I would appreciate you providing them for me, for my future reference, thanks.

I was actually commenting on the firm statement made of your words which lacked a Scriptural reference (no worries, I have provided it below):

Quote from: thinktank on July 09, 2010, 09:28:38 PM
No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

Btw... the word AIONIOS -- which appears in -- 1 John 3:15 -- is not valid as has been translated in this verse and elsewhere, into the English word "ETERNAL"... rather is a derivitive of AION (which in its appearances, has several instances of containing beginning and end), and like its parent word, AIONIOS is also concerned with TIME...

AIONIOS is used in Scripture -- Jude 7 -- as having a beginning and end in describing the FIRE which destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, which had both a BEGINNING (Sodom & Gomorrah were not always burning) and an END (the fire which destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, is no longer burning)

The complete definition of the word ETERNAL also contains the designation of "WITHOUT BEGINNING" as well as "without end"...

That no man can comprehend HOW anything is "WITHOUT BEGINNING", disqualifies his using of the word ETERNAL which he/she cannot fully comprehend... 

:Peace:

Brother LS, I'm not PaulH, though I have been Saul.  :bigGrin:

PaulH may still get back with you, but I'd like to share what I get from it.

Saul/Paul is "common" to us all, in that, anyone who has a saving encounter with the Savior loses the "old man"...(new creature, all things made new).  Though Saul/Paul was certainly a dramatic example of that, still, all saved will experience the same process;  being brought to a Divine appointment by being sought out and drawn (Gr., dragged) to the Savior; and dying to self and miraculousely being made new by the power of the cross and blood.

God bless, James.

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 12:48:05 AM
Saul/Paul is "common" to us all, in that, anyone who has a saving encounter with the Savior loses the "old man"...(new creature, all things made new).  Though Saul/Paul was certainly a dramatic example of that, still, all saved will experience the same process;  being brought to a Divine appointment by being sought out and drawn (Gr., dragged) to the Savior; and dying to self and miraculousely being made new by the power of the cross and blood.

God bless, James.

Thank you - well-stated and I agree with all you said. 

Ur welcome.  :bigGrin:

I was looking through some posts, and came across this one.  I also am not "arguing", but presenting something to think about (I have thought about the ED issue from time to time);

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 01:28:49 AM

Quote from: Doc on January 21, 2009, 08:53:25 PM
Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Scripture IS clear that death will be destroyed. When and how? When it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What/who else goes into the Lake of Fire? Those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

IMHO, if death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, so are those who are also thrown in. No where does it say that all people "go through" the Lake of Fire, so I do not believe the argument some make that "this life" is the lake of fire.

If (since) death will be destroyed;  yet if people are annihilated, doesn't it somehow seem that keeps death "alive"/active?  That it's not really been overcome ("the last enemy to be destroyed is death"), but that it's been "eternally" implemented?  Because the absence of life is death, right, and Jesus came to bring life?  Thinking....

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/adam_succeeded_will_christ.pdf

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 01:37:28 AM
Ur welcome.  :bigGrin:

I was looking through some posts, and came across this one.  I also am not "arguing", but presenting something to think about (I have thought about the ED issue from time to time);

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 01:28:49 AM

Quote from: Doc on January 21, 2009, 08:53:25 PM
Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Scripture IS clear that death will be destroyed. When and how? When it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What/who else goes into the Lake of Fire? Those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

IMHO, if death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, so are those who are also thrown in. No where does it say that all people "go through" the Lake of Fire, so I do not believe the argument some make that "this life" is the lake of fire.

If (since) death will be destroyed;  yet if people are annihilated, doesn't it somehow seem that keeps death "alive"/active?  That it's not really been overcome ("the last enemy to be destroyed is death"), but that it's been "eternally" implemented?  Because the absence of life is death, right, and Jesus came to bring life?  Thinking....

Before death is destroyed, it still reigns even during the 1000 millenium peace, when a man will live to a ripe old age of over a 100, but will still die.

But after the millenium is finished, satan who has the power of death is thrown into the fire and so after ward in the new heavens and earth, new jerusalem coming down from heaven REv 22
The people are now allowed access to the tree of life, the same kind of tree that Adam orginally had access to but choose the tree of knowledge first. So with the tree there is no more death, for the people of Earth.

willieH: Hi LS...  :happygrin:

Quote from: LS on July 09, 2010, 04:31:46 PM
I appreciate all of the gentle replies!  I am aware of this line of thought ...

Quote from: Cardinal on July 09, 2010, 06:31:50 AM
:cloud9: The wicked are removed, but it's the wicked things in us (tares planted while we slept-Adam went to sleep but was not awakened until Christ). Judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Know ye not ye are the temple.....Blessings....

Quote from: jabcat on July 09, 2010, 08:21:30 AM
  :thumbsup:  Anything not of God destroyed, as by fire, so the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

... and truthfully, I can see how some passages that speak of destroying the wicked could mean the wicked "things" within and not the person.  (I don't think it's a given, but I can understand that view).

But there are other more forceful passages that to me, refer to the individual. The very soul can die:

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

What of 1 Cor 11:15, LS?  :dontknow:

Quote from: LS on July 09, 2010, 04:31:46 PMand similarly: Jas 5:20  he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death

The FIRST RESURRECTION is LIFE in CHRIST... we can be found IN HIM, before our death in the FLESH...  The SOUL that sins, DIES... the SOUL that is found IN CHRIST is become part of (the 1st) RESURRECTION of LIFE... for CHRIST is LIFE -- John 14:6

ALL will be RESURRECTED, yet not before DEATH occurs in the FLESH -- John 5:28-29

Quote from: LS on July 09, 2010, 04:31:46 PMThis (to me) is clearly speaking of the person, not a thing within:

Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
      who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
      signals with his feet
      and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
      he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
      he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.

How do you see this to coincide with --- John 1:29 -- LS?  

How about 2 Cor 5:19?  The WORD states that SIN is NOT IMPUTED [inventory held in account/blame] to the WORLD [Kosmos/Creation]

Without ADDING or TAKING away from what these verses state... Please explain... thanks.

Quote from: LS on July 09, 2010, 04:31:46 PMAnd passages such as this specify certain people will obtain resurrection, but it doesn't say all will and I think it is speaking of individuals and not things within us (as those things we wouldn't expect to give in marriage, etc):
Luk 20:35  But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luk 20:36  Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Where in these verses do you find those mentioned as "RESURRECTED" --- are CONFINED to those who BELIEVE during their lives in the FLESH?  Btw, ...the person questioning CHRIST in this passage, was an unbeliever in the resurrection -- Luke 20:27  :dontknow:

CHRIST ...IS... the "RESURRECTION" -- John 11:25

The "RESURRECTION" concerns ALL, ...and ALL are Children of the "RESURRECTION"... so ALL shall be RESURRECTED -- Rev 1:7 -- Rev 5:13 -- John 5:28-29 -- For CHRIST tasted DEATH for EVERY MAN -- Heb 2:9 -- 1 Tim 2:6 --- not just those which GOD before ordained to believe -- Eph 2:10 -- during their course within the walk in the FLESH of this life...

Quote from: LS on July 09, 2010, 04:31:46 PMThese are just some examples to explain why I don't see it the way you do.   I want to be respectful of this board and its members - I have learned a lot reading here and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss a few things with you all.  :HeartThrob:

Now you have some things which have been presented to you as well, which question your observation as well...

Might I close with a few questions for you...

(1)  CHRIST was sent to SAVE the WORLD ...did He succeed or fail to do so?  :Chinscratch:

(2)   If ALL are not saved, and He DIED for ALL... how can it be said that whatever portion dedicated to the UNSAVED was not given IN VAIN?  :Chinscratch:

(3)   If CHRIST was SENT NOT to CONDEMN, and did NOT CONDEMN, during His ministry on Earth (which also means the sender does not desire "condemnation")... and CHRIST does not change -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 -- neither does the sender [YHVH God] -- Mal 3:6 -- and SIN is NOT IMPUTED [held in account/blame] concerning the WORLD -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- and CHRIST "took away" the SIN of the WORLD -- John 1:29...

Wherein is found CONDEMNATION?  :Chinscratch:

(4)   There was a 2500 YEAR PERIOD in which the LAW, which indicates TRANSGRESSION -- 1 John 3:4 -- then how may SIN be laid to the account of all which preceeded the entrance of the LAW...  :Chinscratch:  And,

(5)  How is GOD completely and PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL toward MEN (Acts 10:34 & 9 other verses), if

• ...some were completely WITHOUT the LAW (ALL men prior to Moses)
• ...some under the LAW [Jews] others NOT -- for they did not have the guidance of it [Gentiles]
• ...some were relieved of its accusations by GRACE [believers]?  :Chinscratch:

(6)  Why was Adam not warned by  YHVH God, of either "ANNHILATION" or "ET/hell" as his destiny, and only DEATH noted to him for disobedience to the Command?  :Chinscratch:

(7)  In what way can you consider ANNHILATION or ET to present a PERFECT [COMPLETE] result of the MISSION which CHRIST was sent to accomplish... In what way can EITHER of these be considered COMPLETE? --- (Keep in mind that YHVH is PERFECT... so anything He is involved in must become COMPLETE/PERFECT for HE IS PERFECT -- Matt 5:48)  :Chinscratch:

Thanks for your answers ahead of time...  :ty:

:Peace:

Again... If you believe SIN abounded to a greater degree, wheresoever GRACE abounded, you then indicate "who" you are "for" and "who" you are against"... I am for GRACE which is far more prevalent and POWERFUL than ANY DEGREE of AMOUNT of SIN... which TOOK it AWAY from the WORLD -- John 1:29

Me too, that's why I'm on a forum that teaches Universal salvation, the only difference between me and you is that I belive as scripture regularly implies that the road to life is narrow and it is only by Gods love that we can hope to survive, whereas you think that there is zero danger in life and all is well. That is fine if you want to believe that, but to me the word teaches us to be "carefull" not carefree and that there is a "real danger" that God's grace is not be to taken causually. For did he not say

Fear him that is able to destroy both soul and body and hell.
There is a sin unto death
He that taketh the words from this book will not take part from the tree of life

Please don't bother responding to these verses with various explanation, for I am aware of them. I am highlighting the fact that life is not a game, and we cannot go around and just kill everyone and think that everything will be hunkydorry with God, for that is naivity, not grace.
Every soul is precious to God and does not delight in the cruelty to the little ones.

Maybe your like one of these wise men who just sit's back and grin as the world unfolds and Gods plan unfolds, but as for me I would rather be carefull of danger and I think this is how most people react.



There is no such "being" as "antichrist", and therefore no "his judgment" exists...

I have many scriptures which prove he does exist. The term "antichrist" is the popular way in which people know him as. The original name for him is "the man of sin" and "The abomination of desolation" and "the beast". They call him antichrist for he goes against Christians, and even opposes Christ himself at the battle of armageddon, therefore the term "antichrist" is a fitting term for him, even though its not mentioned in the bible, other than the spirit of antichrist, which is a very different topic.



It is the SPIRIT which is in OPPOSITION to TRUTH, for CHRIST is the TRUTH -- John 14:6 -- and in OPPOSITION to LIFE for CHRIST is LIFE [annhilation]

Anyone which poses opposition to these stated in the WORD about the WORD, is of the spirit of antichrist ["ANTI-TRUTH"]... MANY (not few) "believers" which call CHRIST "Lord" and COME in His NAME... shall bear INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- falsely coming IN, and "doing" works, ...IN that NAME!


From the way I've read that, it indicates that if there are doctrines or teachings which are incorrect, then that means that person who teaches those incorrect doctrines has the spirit of the antichrist, am I correct?

This is not scriptural, and also a dangerous way to make enemies of friends. For by your own words you condemn yourself, for you are one who does not belive in Satan the devil, even though Christ teaches about that being and also the old testament does. Also a lot of people here on UR forum belives he exists. By not beliving in Satan your are going against the word and by your own words means that you have the spirit of the antichrist, in fact you could even say from your point that every single Christian on the planet has the spirit of the antichrist for no one holds all the truth, even you. God looketh upon the heart not on outward appearances.

What the word teaches is that those who deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh has the spirit of the antichrist.
If you look at history it started with a movement called gnocistism, which teachings then spread into other religions such as Islam, who deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh or to be more blunt those who deny that God has come in the flesh.

The people who did many works in his name are not people like annhilationists, or even ET preachers, even though they might teach these things, but those pastors who come in as wolves among the sheep. Notice that Christ says to them 'depart from me, I never knew you'

Not once did Christ know these people, therefore they must be those people who have come into the church with other motives, the biggest one probably to make money, or to become popular, a spirit of pride or the lust of the flesh, these be their motivations, not Christ.

In order to cast out devils you don't even need to know Jesus, you just need to have faith in his name and these people do that, but Christ does not know them and never knew them.


THIRD --- Though I certainly agree that Moses and Paul "repented" of their sins, there is no Scriptural references of this taking place.   

If you have these Scriptures I would appreciate you providing them for me, for my future reference, thanks

I cannot find any, but will let you know.

I was actually commenting on the firm statement made of your words which lacked a Scriptural reference (no worries, I have provided it below):

Thank you.

No murderer has eternal life in him sayeth Jesus.

Btw... the word AIONIOS -- which appears in -- 1 John 3:15 -- is not valid as has been translated in this verse and elsewhere, into the English word "ETERNAL"... rather is a derivitive of AION (which in its appearances, has several instances of containing beginning and end), and like its parent word, AIONIOS is also concerned with TIME...

I think you missing the point here  that what Jesus said is true.

Lets change that verse and see if it makes sound scripture


No sinner has eternal life in him , sayeth Jesus
Isn't this truth?

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through christ.


God bless.

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 01:37:28 AM
Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.
If (since) death will be destroyed;  yet if people are annihilated, doesn't it somehow seem that keeps death "alive"/active?  That it's not really been overcome ("the last enemy to be destroyed is death"), but that it's been "eternally" implemented?  Because the absence of life is death, right, and Jesus came to bring life?  Thinking....

Hmmmm ... interesting way to consider it.   Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think it's part of God's plan in this world; but it will have served its purpose and will have no place in the next.

I don't think that some people "being" dead (annihilated) keeps death alive/active, though.  My belief is that when death is destroyed, the act of dying will never again touch any life - death will never again take a life. Since "death" is destroyed, so also dying will be.  

Whatever/whomever had been destroyed prior to that no longer exists. It isn't continually dying ... it is simply non-existent.

imho

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 01:37:28 AM
Ur welcome.  :bigGrin:

I was looking through some posts, and came across this one.  I also am not "arguing", but presenting something to think about (I have thought about the ED issue from time to time);

Quote from: LS on July 03, 2010, 01:28:49 AM

Quote from: Doc on January 21, 2009, 08:53:25 PM
Joking aside, the scripture is clear that death will be destroyed. Is death powerful enough to thwart God's plan? I think not.

Scripture IS clear that death will be destroyed. When and how? When it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  What/who else goes into the Lake of Fire? Those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

IMHO, if death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, so are those who are also thrown in. No where does it say that all people "go through" the Lake of Fire, so I do not believe the argument some make that "this life" is the lake of fire.

If (since) death will be destroyed;  yet if people are annihilated, doesn't it somehow seem that keeps death "alive"/active?  That it's not really been overcome ("the last enemy to be destroyed is death"), but that it's been "eternally" implemented?  Because the absence of life is death, right, and Jesus came to bring life?  Thinking....

I think it depends when death is overcome.  If God passes judgement and some perish...after judgement death will be no more.

What do you guys think of Collossians 1:20?  The word 'all' has been discussed here many times, and there's been evidence presented that it's a totally encompassing word in the originals.  Do you think God reconciling all through Jesus could mean really some were still to be lost?

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 03:58:23 AM
What do you guys think of Collossians 1:20?  The word 'all' has been discussed here many times, and there's been evidence presented that it's a totally encompassing word in the originals.  Do you think God reconciling all through Jesus could mean really some were still to be lost?

Hi jabcat - here is Colossians 1:20:
Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

I completely believe in universal reconciliation, but I do not believe in universal salvation.  "Reconciliation" and "salvation" are often used interchangeably and I don't think they should be - they are two different things.

Keep reading that passage in Colossians:
Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away  from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

I don't have it all settled in my mind and I am still studying, so I'm sorry if this isn't a very complete answer. But I completely believe Col. 1:20 is true, and in my mind it doesn't equal universal salvation. 

Quote from: shawn on July 10, 2010, 03:41:47 AM
I think it depends when death is overcome.  If God passes judgement and some perish...after judgement death will be no more.

:thumbsup:

LS, it's a fine answer, nothing to apologize for  :bigGrin:.

Here's more to consider.

Some definitions for reconcile;

To reestablish a close relationship between.
To settle or resolve.
To reestablish a close relationship
no longer opposed
to become friendly with (someone) after estrangement or to re-establish friendly relations
to settle (a quarrel or difference)
to make (two apparently conflicting things) compatible or consistent with each other

As far as the IF YOU CONTINUE and NOT BE MOVED AWAY references - I would suggest that still doesn't imply a permanent condition, as in "eternal separation" or death.  I think it probably does imply some type of judgment/consequences, possibly as in "few stripes/many stripes", loss of rewards, position of service, etc.  However, IMO, there are many scriptures that indicate once a person has become a son of God, they are never "de"-sonned  (:laughing7:).  Some scrips that come to mind include a) sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, b) He Who has started a good work in you will complete it, and c) Jesus, the Author (Beginner) and Finisher (Completer) of our faith...

My understanding.  

Ahhh...translations.

Here is the CLV:

23 since surely you are persisting in the faith, grounded and settled and are not being removed from the expectation of the evangel which you hear which is being heralded in the entire creation which is under heaven of which I, Paul, became the dispenser.
www.concordant.org/version/index.html

 :boogie:  Thank you David!

I thought about translations, good show!

I believe this translation fits perfectly with the three scripture references a,b,c, I provided above.  Jesus is our Savior, Finisher, Completer, and the Holy Spirit is our Sealer (Guaranteer?).   Also, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.  

He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against that day.

So as in the CLV, and I believe, He ensures it.  So all the other stuff I mentioned as in possible consequences may only secondarily apply (if at all).  Thanks for the translational clarification.   :thumbsup:

I also checked the Greek Interlinear, and the most literal "word-for-word" translation is apparently since surely persisting.  However,  :sigh: even they end up translating in the full english sentence as something like "if then you are persisting".  Why do they do that?    :doh:

 :cloud9: Because they're translating from the Greek, which, if the original languages were colors, the Greek would be brown as mud, and Hebrew would be a rainbow.....oh wait, it IS...... :grin:  Blessings...

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 05:42:03 AM
I also checked the Greek Interlinear, and the most literal "word-for-word" translation is apparently since surely persisting.  However,  :sigh: even they end up translating in the full english sentence as something like "if then you are persisting".  Why do they do that?    :doh:

Well see ... I think they do because it means something. I think we always have to be careful to seek the Truth of what scripture says first ... and our beliefs come from that second.  And those "little details" really hang me up sometimes ... there are a lot of things I remain open on.   :mblush:

Thank you for being so great in a give & take discussion - I really appreciate it!  You've caused me to search more and think through some new things and I always think that is very cool   :cool:

It reads to me more as — if they were truly united to him, what needed they more?
Depends where the emphasis is applied.

Remember who he was writing to and why he wrote the letter!

Quote from: LS on July 10, 2010, 05:52:38 AM

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 05:42:03 AM
I also checked the Greek Interlinear, and the most literal "word-for-word" translation is apparently since surely persisting.  However,  :sigh: even they end up translating in the full english sentence as something like "if then you are persisting".  Why do they do that?    :doh:

Well see ... I think they do because it means something. I think we always have to be careful to seek the Truth of what scripture says first ... and our beliefs come from that second.  And those "little details" really hang me up sometimes ... there are a lot of things I remain open on.   :mblush:

Thank you for being so great in a give & take discussion - I really appreciate it!  You've caused me to search more and think through some new things and I always think that is very cool   :cool:

You're welcome on the good discussion, same here.

However, let's look at what you just said about the scriptures and that they translate a certain way because they mean something, and that we should get our beliefs from those scriptures.  I agree on 'we should get what we believe from the scriptures'.  I question "they translate the way they do because it means something".  If the original word-for-word (as I noted) says a specific thing, but the translators change the meaning (as is apparently the case, again as noted) I believe that means something alright.  At least in some cases, I believe it means they're translating to fit an already preconceived idea/belief, rather than taking the Word at face value.  

Since we're both checking things out  :bigGrin:, please check it for yourself and let me know if you find something to the contrary, but again, the original word-for-word is apparently since surely persisting, NOT if you persist.  SINCE SURELY PERSISTING - Now that means something!   :dsunny:    

ooohhh, good point well worth considering David.  I'm all about who was primarily being addressed and about what, but I OFTEN miss it/forget it's there.  I'll think on that some more.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Cardinal on July 10, 2010, 05:51:59 AM
:cloud9: Because they're translating from the Greek, which, if the original languages were colors, the Greek would be brown as mud, and Hebrew would be a rainbow.....oh wait, it IS...... :grin:  Blessings...

I don't know enough about it to know Card, but gee, even the Greek seems very clear on this one to me - yet they still (most translators) changed it  :sigh:.

IMO, there's a huge difference between "Since you surely are" and "if you do".   :mshock:

Is greek the original language?

Maybe the apostles wrote the originals in their language, aramic, but subsequent versions translated them to greek as the apostle Paul made his way over to Greece with the manuscripts  :dontknow:

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 06:11:24 AM
Since we're both checking things out  :bigGrin:, please check it for yourself and let me know if you find something to the contrary, but again, the original word-for-word is apparently since surely persisting, NOT if you persist.  SINCE SURELY PERSISTING - Now that means something!   :dsunny:    

I'm not sure what you are saying - both the interlinear Greek I am using and Strong's indicate that "if" is there.

Strong's: If^G1489 ye continue^G1961 ... and^G2532 be not^G3361 moved ...
G1489
εἴγε
eige
i'-gheh
From G1487 and G1065; if indeed, seeing that, unless, (with negative) otherwise: - if (so be that, yet).

Greek Interlinear:
eige
eige
G1489
Cond
IF-SURELY
since-surely

Also, I may view the Bible a little differently than ya'll.  I know today we have the luxury of having our own written Bibles and concordances and translations and translators ... but for most of Christian history, few people were literate and even fewer had their own printed copy of scripture. 

I sincerely believe God preserved His written word AND the translations well enough that people who could only hear what was read to them, could know Truth, and believe. 

I am not as suspicious of early translators as many of you are. I think in some ways they had a better grasp of customs and word usage than we can 2,000 years later; there is a lot more to translating than word-for-word knowledge.  We all know languages have little idiosyncrasies that can be lost - gay used to mean something different than it does now, and imagine someone from another culture trying to make sense of a phrase like, "His face fell."

Just filling in my thoughts so you know where I'm coming from   :bigGrin:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 10, 2010, 06:09:52 AM
Remember who he was writing to and why he wrote the letter!

Agreed ...

"To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

I think we sometimes think of Paul's words as being directed to the entire world. While the entire world can benefit from them, we have to remember that at the time, he was writing a letter to fellow believers who already had a foundation of shared beliefs with Paul, and he was addressing issues important to believers moreso than to the world.

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 06:25:54 AM
Is greek the original language?

Maybe the apostles wrote the originals in their language, aramic, but subsequent versions translated them to greek as the apostle Paul made his way over to Greece with the manuscripts  :dontknow:

:mshock:

I've been looking ... there definitely seems to be a question over whether the originals were written in Greek or in Hebrew ... interesting point thinktank.   :dontknow:

I'm basing what I'm saying on the very bottom line of the Greek Interlinear, which leaves out the IF and says "since surely".  I looked to see if there was a key to indicate whether the bottom line is the absolute most literal rendering, but didn't find it.  However, the CLV concordant method as David noted, also uses a more definite language rather than "if".

As far as translations, I hear your point, and I agree there's something to it.  However, I also have some problems with it.  For instance, I certainly do believe God preserved His Word, especially to the extent of "Jesus, Son of God, believe on Him for salvation", etc.  But I also believe He allowed (and allows) deceptions, that work according to His overall ultimate purposes.  (Only He knows all about that.)  So, my point being, if everything was as "clear" through the ages, then they would have (and did) believe in Hell - which is not even a scriptural word.  It's a made up term as far as scripture goes, and is "randomly" misapplied to other actual scriptural terms.  It apparently originally meant to cover over, as in "to hel potatoes in the winter".  So that's just one example of what I believe for something to not be as clear as we would like.  God has His reasons.   :dontknow:   :2c:

http://versebyversecommentary.com/1996/06/02/colossians-123/

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 06:41:00 AM
I'm basing what I'm saying on the very bottom line of the Greek Interlinear, which leaves out the IF and says "since surely".  I looked to see if there was a key to indicate whether the bottom line is the absolute most literal rendering, but didn't find it.  However, the CLV concordant method as David noted, also uses a more definite language rather than "if".

As far as translations, I hear your point, and I agree there's something to it.  However, I also have some problems with it.  For instance, I certainly do believe God preserved His Word, especially to the extent of "Jesus, Son of God, believe on Him for salvation", etc.  But I also believe He allowed (and allows) deceptions, that work according to His overall ultimate purposes.  (Only He knows all about that.)  So, my point being, if everything was as "clear" through the ages, then they would have (and did) believe in Hell - which is not even a scriptural word.  It's a made up term as far as scripture goes, and is "randomly" misapplied to other actual scriptural terms.  It apparently originally meant to cover over, as in "to hel potatoes in the winter".  So that's just one example of what I believe for something to not be as clear as we would like.  God has His reasons.   :dontknow:   :2c:

Thank you for explaining further, I appreciate that!  And I don't entirely disagree with you; lots to think about   :thumbsup:  

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 10, 2010, 06:45:03 AM


http://versebyversecommentary.com/1996/06/02/colossians-123/

Hi Beloved Servant - as soon as I clicked on your link I had a problem with what I saw:

"Does this "if" indicate that our salvation depends upon us?"

This passage isn't speaking of "salvation" - it's speaking of being reconciled! Again, I don't think they are the same thing and I think it's a mistake to try to use them interchangeably   :mblush:

(although ... Paul is the king  :icon_king: of run-on sentences, so sometimes it's hard to pare it down to the bones to see what he's saying  :grin: )

Good link Dave, even/especially the comments.  Check out the last one especially.  (Reminds me of "..Savior of ALL men, ESPECIALLY of those believing"...not 'exclusively', but especially.  :bigGrin:.  Well, that's been another big discussion.  LOL.)

Well, anyway, LS, Paul specifically references the faith.  If you don't think that ties into salvation, i.e., "reconciliation is not synonymous with salvation" [even though the def's I provided earlier seem to fit] what do you believe it is referencing?  Thanks.

Quote from: LS on July 10, 2010, 06:39:49 AM

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 06:25:54 AM
Is greek the original language?

Maybe the apostles wrote the originals in their language, aramic, but subsequent versions translated them to greek as the apostle Paul made his way over to Greece with the manuscripts  :dontknow:

:mshock:

I've been looking ... there definitely seems to be a question over whether the originals were written in Greek or in Hebrew ... interesting point thinktank.   :dontknow:

:cloud9: They've got at least an extant copy of Matthew written in Hebrew. I knew they were ALL written in Hebrew decades before I ever read anybody's thoughts on that, just by the precepts I was finding, some of which are simply not "catchable" by looking at the Greek translation discussing the same precept, unless you know the Hebrew precept that thought came from. Blessings....

Quote from: LS on July 10, 2010, 04:46:52 AM

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 03:58:23 AM
What do you guys think of Collossians 1:20?  The word 'all' has been discussed here many times, and there's been evidence presented that it's a totally encompassing word in the originals.  Do you think God reconciling all through Jesus could mean really some were still to be lost?

Hi jabcat - here is Colossians 1:20:
Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

I completely believe in universal reconciliation, but I do not believe in universal salvation.  "Reconciliation" and "salvation" are often used interchangeably and I don't think they should be - they are two different things.

Keep reading that passage in Colossians:
Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away  from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

I don't have it all settled in my mind and I am still studying, so I'm sorry if this isn't a very complete answer. But I completely believe Col. 1:20 is true, and in my mind it doesn't equal universal salvation. 

I agree that is interesting.  I mean why would Paul expound upon reconciliation of all with "if ye continue the faith grounded and settled and not be moved away...".  At first glance it can seem almost contradictory.  How can he restore all yet put a stipulation on the word all?  I really need to study the greek on the word reconcile.  Any assistance with that would be helpful.  But, the only way I can see this passage making sense is if you can be reconciled without being saved.  And it seems like a stipulation is being placed on salvation as well if we follow that train of thought.  Unless the stipulation wasn't being placed on reconciliation or salvation at all.  Is it possible that it was placed on being presented as unreproveable, unblameable and holy? 

Quote from: LS on July 10, 2010, 05:52:38 AM

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 05:42:03 AM
I also checked the Greek Interlinear, and the most literal "word-for-word" translation is apparently since surely persisting.  However,  :sigh: even they end up translating in the full english sentence as something like "if then you are persisting".  Why do they do that?    :doh:

Well see ... I think they do because it means something. I think we always have to be careful to seek the Truth of what scripture says first ... and our beliefs come from that second.  And those "little details" really hang me up sometimes ... there are a lot of things I remain open on.   :mblush:

Thank you for being so great in a give & take discussion - I really appreciate it!  You've caused me to search more and think through some new things and I always think that is very cool   :cool:

Good post.  I think it's all too easy to have a belief and fit scripture to support that belief.  I'm certainly not suggesting that is what is being done.  It's merely a reminder to myself.  I wasn't exposed to UR until about a little over a year ago.  I devoured the material.  I believed it.  I did so because I needed to at the time.  But, recently I have decided to delve in depth to search out truth not just want I want to hear.  I am doing my best to keep an open mind and study accordingly.  As of now I think the strongest argument is for ED but I am certainly willing to change that view.  I just pray that the Holy Spirit guides and blesses my study.

Quote from: LSStrong's: IfG1489 ye continueG1961 ... andG2532 be notG3361 moved ...
G1489

Isn't the same thought contained in this?


Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.





"he who stands firm"
G5278
υπομένω
hupomenō
hoop-om-en'-o
From G5259 and G3306; to stay under (behind), that is, remain; figuratively to undergo, that is, bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere: - abide, endure, (take) patient (-ly), suffer, tarry behind.


We are able to stand firm in our faith because we are grounded and steadfast and not able to be removed from the hope of the gospel.

Quote from: ShawnBut, the only way I can see this passage making sense is if you can be reconciled without being saved.

Seems to me that is possible.  The reconciliation of the cross is one way--God has reconciled man to himself.  But, man must still reconcile himself to God.  It's a two way street.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AM
Again... If you believe SIN abounded to a greater degree, wheresoever GRACE abounded, you then indicate "who" you are "for" and "who" you are against"... I am for GRACE which is far more prevalent and POWERFUL than ANY DEGREE of AMOUNT of SIN... which TOOK it AWAY from the WORLD -- John 1:29

Me too, that's why I'm on a forum that teaches Universal salvation, the only difference between me and you is that I belive as scripture regularly implies that the road to life is narrow and it is only by Gods love that we can hope to survive, whereas you think that there is zero danger in life and all is well. That is fine if you want to believe that, but to me the word teaches us to be "carefull" not carefree and that there is a "real danger" that God's grace is not be to taken causually. For did he not say

Fear him that is able to destroy both soul and body and hell.

FIRST -- I am not in the LEAST, ..."carefree" about my approach to the WORD of GOD... On the contrary... I deem it SACRED and spend time DAILY informing others that it is dangerous to tamper with its contents... by adding or subtracting from it.

SECOND -- Neither have I suggested that there is "ZERO danger in life and all is well"!  Those are YOUR WORDS, not mine...  which is WHY you did not QUOTE me, for such was not STATED by me...

I maintain that living in RIGHTEOUSNESS will bring the FRUITS of righteousness into ones experience... against which there is NO LAW... but in the disobedience of the COMMAND of GOD as found in His WORD, there are great and DIRE consequences which have and WILL, befall men... The examples plentifully abound and are growing... DISEASES which are becoming MULTIPLIED and incurable, and tensions which try ALL RELATIONSHIPS, and POVERTIES which extend to ALL POINTS on the earth... are but the BEGINNING of these TRIBULATIONS...

THIRD --- The keyword in the text you refer to is actually "ABLE"... God is "ABLE" to do anything.  That He is ABLE, does not indicate that He shall do so... Why would HE create things a certain way... to have certain weaknesses and then only via HIS STRENGTH given on HIS TERMS, "destroy" them for being WEAK and without STRENGTH?  UNREASONABLE.

As an adult, because you are ABLE to kill another... that you do not KILL another has nothing to do with the "ABILITY" to do so... Just because you have the "ABILITY".

Rather your abstination from killing has to do with the LOVE and respect you hold for LIFE which is given by GOD... and though you are ABLE to KILL, you do not because you ESTEEM LIFE to be a GOD GIVEN commodity, and in obedience to the HIS COMMAND against KILLING (MURDER), you abstain... And the FRUIT gained of that abstaining, is LIFE...

What would make you think GOD esteems life LESS than yourself, when it is HE which brought it forth?

This is why we must incorporate REASON within our observations of the Scriptures... my new friend...  :friendstu:

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMThere is a sin unto death

There sure is... :nod:

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMHe that taketh the words from this book will not take part from the tree of life

Who has taken words from any of the BOOKS?  Certainly "ANNHILATION" is a word (for MURDER) which is certainly ADDED unto it!   :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMPlease don't bother responding to these verses with various explanation, for I am aware of them. I am highlighting the fact that life is not a game, and we cannot go around and just kill everyone and think that everything will be hunkydorry with God, for that is naivity, not grace.

FIRST --- Now why would you post something then instruct me not to respond to it, T-tank?  :dontknow:

SECOND --- You have misconstrued my words... The PRINCIPAL of SOWING and REAPING is a REALITY to living outside of the commands of GOD --  -- and no one has suggested that living wrecklessly will produce "hunkydorry" results! 

GRACE is the JUSTICE which GOD provided for ALL before the FOUNDATION of the WORLD -- Rev 13:8 -- and it is FAR MORE prevalent than ANY degree or amount of SIN that any FINITE can produce -- Rom 5:20

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMEvery soul is precious to God and does not delight in the cruelty to the little ones.

I agree that EVERY SOUL is precious to GOD... and that He does not delight in cruelty to the little ones... but how can you APPROVE of ANNHILATION and then think in the next moment that those SOULS which you see as headed for and SHALL be ANNHILATED are STILL held PRECIOUS by GOD?  That is an internally contradictory position...

"GOD loves you, but even though HE has the power to save you, He shall DESTROY you instead"... even though He still loves you. :rolleye:  "Hey, I loveya with all my heart, but you need KILLIN'..." :mnah:

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMMaybe your like one of these wise men who just sit's back and grin as the world unfolds and Gods plan unfolds, but as for me I would rather be carefull of danger and I think this is how most people react.

I have studied the doctrines of orthodoxy, not only OUTSIDE them, ...but INSIDE them!... Having spent extended periods of time within the spectrum of the Church that teaches these 2 despicable teachings in the name of the GOSPEL of PEACE... neither of which contain PEACE at all.

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMThere is no such "being" as "antichrist", and therefore no "his judgment" exists...

I have many scriptures which prove he does exist. The term "antichrist" is the popular way in which people know him as.

FIRST --- You say you have "MANY", ...why did you not name EVEN ONE of them?  Is this one of those "gun that is a finger in your jacket pocket" -- type holdups?  :laughing7:  The TRUTH is that there are only 5 total mentions of "ANTICHRIST" in the entire WORD... which does NOT constitute "MANY", and 3 of the 5 of them are in the 2nd chapter of 1 John... 1 mention in the 4th chapter of 1 John, and 1 in 2 John...  :dontknow:

SECOND --- The Scriptures -- (1) note "ANTICHRIST" as a SPIRIT -- 1 John 4:3 -- (2) that there are MANY in which this spirit is present -- 1 John 2:18  -- anyone which denies CHRIST is come in the flesh -- 2 John 7 -- is "ANTICHRIST"... which is MOST of the population of this world.

There are NONE that note "ANTICHRIST" to be a single/particular BEING which shall be manifest... therefore "antichrist" is NOT a "he" --- The false teachings of orthodoxy promote "antichrist" to be a "singular" person... yet the Scriptures do NOT support this lame teaching...

Show me the verses which support that "antichrist" is ONE MAN.

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMThe original name for him is "the man of sin" and "The abomination of desolation" and "the beast".

Now you are just gathering unfounded opinion together... Upon what are you basing these things T-tank?

The MAN of SIN... is MAN within his UNCONVERTED, UNSUBMITTED and UNSPIRITUAL "will" -- which IS a BEAST [carnal] -- Ecc 3:18

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMThey call him antichrist for he goes against Christians

FIRST --- This is NOT what the Scriptures say about "antichrist"... the Scriptures note that DENIAL of His coming in the FLESH is that which exposes this spirit in men -- 2 John 7

SECOND --- CHRIST is even set against "christians" brother T-tank! -- Matt 7:22-23 -- These ...MANY... "BELIEVERS" --- have just CALLED CHRIST "Lord" (which can only be done via the power of the HS -- 1 Cor 12:2) -- and yet CHRIST calls their "coming" and "works" which they claim as DONE in HIS NAME... as INIQUITY!

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMand even opposes Christ himself at the battle of armageddon

What Scripture places "ANTICHRIST" as "opposing CHRIST" at the "Battle of armegeddon"?  There is only 1 verse which mentions ARMAGEDDON -- Rev 16:16 -- the term "ANTICHRIST" is absent from this context.

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMtherefore the term "antichrist" is a fitting term for him, even though its not mentioned in the bible, other than the spirit of antichrist, which is a very different topic.

:omg:  First you give me warning not to TAKE AWAY from the WORD, here: 

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMHe that taketh the words from this book will not take part from the tree of life

which is good counsel, and I do not do so... but then, ...here you are WILLINGLY ADDING to the WORD what is NOT WRITTEN, ...IN IT!  ...and which we are also ADVISED to abstain from this practice as well! -- Rev 22:18 -- Pro 30:6

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMIt is the SPIRIT which is in OPPOSITION to TRUTH, for CHRIST is the TRUTH -- John 14:6 -- and in OPPOSITION to LIFE for CHRIST is LIFE [annhilation]

Anyone which poses opposition to these stated in the WORD about the WORD, is of the spirit of antichrist ["ANTI-TRUTH"]... MANY (not few) "believers" which call CHRIST "Lord" and COME in His NAME... shall bear INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- falsely coming IN, and "doing" works, ...IN that NAME!

From the way I've read that, it indicates that if there are doctrines or teachings which are incorrect, then that means that person who teaches those incorrect doctrines has the spirit of the antichrist, am I correct?

NO... I have not stated this, don't "put words in my mouth"... Scripture plainly points out that "antichrist" is a spirit of deception concerning that CHRIST came in the FLESH...

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMThis is not scriptural,

If the teaching is not founded in and upon the WORD of TRUTH, then it is NOT TRUTH. 

That MANY shall come DECIEVING MANY... is the prophecy which CHRIST repeated... Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- The CONFUSED and DISHARMONIC state of Christianity is exemplary of BABLYLON and the variant teachings for the most part... are LIES which are not founded in the WORD, rather are erected from and of TRADITION which is that which renders the WORD inert -- Matt 15:6 -- Mark 7:13

Such descrepancies as the Rapture, the Trinity, tongues, annhilation, ET, impartations and more are found in the differing versions of the Christian religion... often based in LITERAL observations of SPIRITUAL TEXTS... which bring forth CARNAL outgoings, and ceremony... rather than journey into the HEART together, knowing that each INDIVIDUAL knows and communes with GOD INDIVIDUALLY... and outward signs and wonders are not evidence of INWARD presence.

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMand also a dangerous way to make enemies of friends.

I need ONE FRIEND T-tank... as long as CHRIST remains my friend because I am true to HIM... then number of friends I have, do not matter... CHRIST noted that many "friends", "loved ones", even wives and husbands, mothers & fathers, would become ENEMIES via devotions to HIM... I am not willing to compromise HIM for YOU... even though I would like it just fine if we were friends...

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMFor by your own words you condemn yourself, for [5] you are one who does not belive in Satan the devil, even though Christ teaches about that being and also the old testament does. Also a lot of people here on UR forum belives he exists. [5] By not beliving in Satan your are going against the word and by your own words means that you have the spirit of the antichrist, in fact you could even say from your point that every single Christian on the planet has the spirit of the antichrist for no one holds all the truth, even you. God looketh upon the heart not on outward appearances.

FIRST --- It does not matter to me the composite beliefs of this or any other forum... One thing prevalent on this forum is SEEKERS of TRUTH... that we all are on different positions upon the pathway to TRUTH, means that we shall find disagreement on this or that accordingly.

SECOND -- I challenge you to prove with the SCRIPTURES that "satan" is a SENTIENT BEING with an AGENDA...

THIRD -- CHRIST never taught "satan" was a being... and even SPECIFICALLY named his CHOSEN Apostle Peter addressing him as "SATAN"...

FOURTH -- I am not going against my own words... Please note where I have done so.  I say you are a FALSE ACCUSER.

FIFTH -- [5] Believing in CHRIST is that which FAITH is about, not placing  "belief" in --- "satan" or "hell" or the "trinity" or the "rapture" or "UFO's" for that matter ...CHRIST

SIXTH -- I have not called Christianity "antichrist"... for most believe CHRIST has come in the FLESH... YOU have labeled me with this, I have not stated it... just another false accusation forthcoming from you.

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMIf you look at history it started with a movement called gnocistism, which teachings then spread into other religions such as Islam, who deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh or to be more blunt those who deny that God has come in the flesh.

This is an inaccurate deduction of CHRIST's WORDS which state that those who REPRESENT His name are those which bring INIQUITOUS teachings to the WORLD -- Matt 7:22-23 -- IN HIS NAME... Islam does no such thing.  They deny CHRIST has come in the FLESH as Savior but are NOT teaching this IN HIS NAME...

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMThe people who did many works in his name are not people like annhilationists, or even ET preachers, even though they might teach these things, but those pastors who come in as wolves among the sheep. Notice that Christ says to them 'depart from me, I never knew you'

You continue to fail to reference your words... which are paraphrased and incomplete. Relating WORDS from CHRIST which are not about ISLAMICS or other religions, rather are about CHRISTIANITY and those who claim to REPRESENT Him and His name...

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMNot once did Christ know these people, therefore they must be those people who have come into the church with other motives, the biggest one probably to make money, or to become popular, a spirit of pride or the lust of the flesh, these be their motivations, not Christ.

More paraphrase and assumption... trying to deflect the truth with inaccurate and incomplete quotations which do not appear stated as you promote.

Matt 7:22-23 and Matt 24:4-15 are prophetic projections of CHRIST, speaking of "the END" -- T-tank... This was stating that the TRUTH and the "doings of these people" did NOT COINCIDE... therefore their doings were not KNOWN BY the TRUTH, ...as the TRUTH...  :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMIn order to cast out devils you don't even need to know Jesus, you just need to have faith in his name and these people do that, but Christ does not know them and never knew them.

The Apostles "cast out devils" and did "wonderful works"... Did CHRIST not "know" them? 

These texts are speaking of FALSE PROPHETS which in the END, "arise" in the coldness of INDIFFERENCE -- Matt 24:11 -- which IS the ABOMINATION of DESOLATION...  Which is a message that is preached in the "name" of LOVE, MERCY and GRACE, and does not even CONTAIN these elements!

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 02:48:32 AMBtw... the word AIONIOS -- which appears in -- 1 John 3:15 -- is not valid as has been translated in this verse and elsewhere, into the English word "ETERNAL"... rather is a derivitive of AION (which in its appearances, has several instances of containing beginning and end), and like its parent word, AIONIOS is also concerned with TIME...

I think you missing the point here  that what Jesus said is true.

Lets change that verse and see if it makes sound scripture

No sinner has eternal life in him , sayeth Jesus
Isn't this truth?

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through christ.

As I have already proven, AION and AIONIOS do not mean ETERNAL as in without Beginning or End... They are both TIME related and TIME limited terminology.

We, as FINITES do not even have the comprehension of the ETERNAL -- so usage of that term other than attaching it in FAITH to GOD alone... is invalid. 

I do believe that ALL sin was PAID for and thereby removed at the cross and is due NO FURTHER PAYMENT by ANYONE... 

Irregardless of the insistence of translators to use words [eternal, forever], carelessly attaching them to FINITE entities, which they themselves, do not comprehend.

:Peace:

Quote from Molly;

Quote from: LS
Strong's: IfG1489 ye continueG1961 ... andG2532 be notG3361 moved ...
G1489


Isn't the same thought contained in this?


Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. End quote

What if we take into consideration again who Jesus was primarily talking to, the end of what, saved from what and in what manner within those particular contexts?  Would that make a difference, or is it clearly apparent and indisputable (I'm not sure) that He was talking about THE "end" and THE salvation?  Maybe it is, I certainly don't have it all figured out.  I do believe His earthly ministry had a LOT to do with the transition of the age of Law to the age of grace/the church - the "end" of the temple worship, the beginning of the next age following the cross and His resurrection - and how the religious of that age would be affected (I came only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel, He spoke only to them [all except His disciples?] in parables, etc.).  I believe His earthly ministry was mainly about the end of that age, then when He died and rose again, we began to be included.   :2c:

Further, adding in addressing Shawn's latest posts, and reiterating a bit from posts made earlier to LS - If we believe it's up to us to somehow be good enough, strong enough, righteous enough etc. to "stay saved", then I believe we a) discount a lot of scriptures that say HE's the Author and Finisher of our faith, that when He saves us He seals us with His Spirit, etc. and b) where does that put the work of the cross?  Do I get saved through grace but then stay saved through my own perseverance/endurance/works of righteousness?  Paul said if I try to do that then I've "fallen from grace" - because it's by faith (and that not of myself) not works that I'm saved.  So maybe some of those verses are talking about other things that have to be rightly divided.  

Putting forth some more things to think about.  Again, I believe many punishment verses have to do with either earthly, temporal consequences and corrections, as well as in the "eternal" realm they have to do with correction, loss of rewards, loss of privilege/position of service, etc., not ALL of them strictly having to do with "am I saved and a child of God, or lost and not a child of God".  

Is our salvation so tenuous that it can be given, snatched away, given back, snatched away again daily, totally dependent upon our own capabilities?  I personally don't think so.  I don't believe a child of God, spiritually new-born from above, washed in the blood of the Lamb - though not perfect and still learning daily - will joyously and habitually live the life of the devil and not be pulled along by the Lord, convicted, renewed and restored by the Spirit of God, as He brings us into maturity (perfection) as His blood-bought sons.  That's what occurs.  But it's the work of God's Spirit in us, part of the process of being a a son and saved, not our own efforts.  Does He bring us to and teach us how to yield, surrender, walk in obedience?  I believe so.  But again, I believe that's HIS works within us.  I've tried it, and I've also watched many attempt to be good enough to stay saved.  I don't believe it works.  I've been, and have seen, many a ship wreck by trying it in our own strength.  It's only by grace and faith given by the Lord.  So putting it all together, I don't believe many of those verses we use to talk about "staying saved" really are talking about THE salvation...I believe they are talking about other things, and that we often mix it up and miss the context and primary audiance, setting, and meaning(s).  But I also agree, it can be a real challenge to rightly divide the Word of Truth in many of those areas, and i certainly miss it myself.  

In the end, it's about HIM, us looking to Him the Author and Finisher, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last - the Lamb that was worthy and slain, who predestined us from the foundation of the world - not about ME, or how much I'm able to please Him or do for Him - or not.  It's why HE is worthy of all glory and honor praise.

May we give it to Him.  

That's my understanding.

Lord, help this not be a stumbling block or give an appearance that we as believers have a license to willfully sin.  That folks will understand I'm talking about living a holy, consecrated life, set apart for you.  But that it only comes through Your strength,, mercy, grace and empowerment, and that without You we can do nothing.  In Jesus' name... 

Quote from: JABWhat if we take into consideration again who Jesus was primarily talking to, the end of what, saved from what and in what manner within those particular contexts?  Would that make a difference..

Well, that's the thing.  We've had this discussion before--what does it mean to be saved?  He saves me every day of the week--I can't imagine how anyone lives a day without him. 

But, even so, we are always being encouraged--stay strong, take heart, have courage, hold fast--because we need to be encouraged constantly.
We need to stay strong, take heart, have courage, and hold fast.  But, we are not fighting this battle alone.


Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,..

Yes, I've been thinking about this some more.  We are encouraged to do those things, yet I think there's almost a sort of (for lack of a better word) "dilemma" there.  Because I don't think I can do those things, including taking the "endure to the end" statement at its face value of "hanging in there til it's over" - whenever the end is that it's talking about, whether it's the end of the age, the end of my life, or the "end of time" - without His doing it through me.  I don't believe I have any goodness, power, ability of my own.  That I can only do it by Him working through me, as I "look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my faith".  And I really think that's what you're saying too, by "He saves me every day".  Maybe there's a bit of a mystery there...sort of as Paul said, "I, yet not I".   :bigGrin:

God bless.

Yes, a mystery!

Thou art a little pebble and on this boulder I will build my church.

Further, adding in addressing Shawn's latest posts, and reiterating a bit from posts made earlier to LS - If we believe it's up to us to somehow be good enough, strong enough, righteous enough etc. to "stay saved", then I believe we a) discount a lot of scriptures that say HE's the Author and Finisher of our faith, that when He saves us He seals us with His Spirit, etc. and b) where does that put the work of the cross?  Do I get saved through grace but then stay saved through my own perseverance/endurance/works of righteousness?  Paul said if I try to do that then I've "fallen from grace" - because it's by faith (and that not of myself) not works that I'm saved.  So maybe some of those verses are talking about other things that have to be rightly divided

This is kind of how I'm taking this section.  Unless we can indeed lose our salvation then there has to be more to the verses.  And the only thing I can think of is how rewards are handed out in heaven.

www.godfire.net/Waitingidx.html

Quote from: Molly on July 10, 2010, 08:10:57 AM
The reconciliation of the cross is one way--God has reconciled man to himself.  But, man must still reconcile himself to God.  It's a two way street.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Bingo ... excellent post Molly.  And this is how I would reply to jabcat's question to me; it's not a complete reply, but it's something I'm still trying to study and to seek Truth on.




[/quote]

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 12:06:47 PM
Yes, I've been thinking about this some more.  We are encouraged to do those things, yet I think there's almost a sort of (for lack of a better word) "dilemma" there.  Because I don't think I can do those things, including taking the "endure to the end" statement at its face value of "hanging in there til it's over" - whenever the end is that it's talking about, whether it's the end of the age, the end of my life, or the "end of time" - without His doing it through me.  I don't believe I have any goodness, power, ability of my own.  That I can only do it by Him working through me, as I "look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my faith".  And I really think that's what you're saying too, by "He saves me every day".  Maybe there's a bit of a mystery there...sort of as Paul said, "I, yet not I".   :bigGrin:

God bless.

That is a great post- thank you.

I don't remember the original source for this, but I liked it enough to copy the quote. (I think it may be quoting R.C. Sproul, but I don't remember for sure).  It fits with what you are saying, and I thought you might like it too:

God of Christianity, of the universe, of the Bible, is an infinite, personal being. To use Francis Schaeffer's language, He is a transcendent, imminent God. And because of that, apparently the divine sovereignty and human responsibility tension is a reflection of the fact that God is infinite and personal.

In that He is infinite, He is absolutely in charge.  In that He is personal and He made human beings accountable to Himself, there is genuine human responsibility.

Thus, the tension between divine sovereignty and human responsibility seem to reflect a mystery within the person of God Himself and in His dealings with the world.

Quote from: LSThus, the tension between divine sovereignty and human responsibility seem to reflect a mystery within the person of God Himself and in His dealings with the world.

Yes, and it reflects the mystery of us to ourselves, also.  Who am I?  Who are we?

We see ourselves as one looking into a darkened mirror.  We don't necessarily know who we are, but He does, and always has.


12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

--1 Cor 13

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 10, 2010, 05:45:28 PM



www.godfire.net/Waitingidx.html

I'm not sure what that link has to do with this discussion but wow what a resource.  My wife and I have discussed this section for the last hour...

When forming a three strand cord that is not quickly broken, there is more to it than what may meet the eye. The first step is to select the same kind and quality of fiber. If different fibers are used, the rope will not have the necessary strength and uniform elasticity to do the job it is designed for -- and it is the same with the spiritual cord of marriage. The man can be born from above and be of identical Spirit as that of the Lord. He may know all there is to know about his heavenly calling, and the revelations he possesses may astound the learned scholars; but if he marries a woman of a different fiber, or she does not share the same vision -- their three fold cold may quickly be broken when the inevitable pressures of life come. It doesn't matter how much they may love one another, the reality is, that rope will snap when it begins to pull the heavy load of life.

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 12:06:47 PM
Yes, I've been thinking about this some more.  We are encouraged to do those things, yet I think there's almost a sort of (for lack of a better word) "dilemma" there.  Because I don't think I can do those things, including taking the "endure to the end" statement at its face value of "hanging in there til it's over" - whenever the end is that it's talking about, whether it's the end of the age, the end of my life, or the "end of time" - without His doing it through me.  I don't believe I have any goodness, power, ability of my own.  That I can only do it by Him working through me, as I "look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my faith".  And I really think that's what you're saying too, by "He saves me every day".  Maybe there's a bit of a mystery there...sort of as Paul said, "I, yet not I".   :bigGrin:

God bless.

Terrific post...and I couldn't agree more.

shawn, continue reading for its spiritual application.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 10, 2010, 07:17:45 PM
shawn, continue reading for its spiritual application.

Keep those types of links coming.  I was floored by the depth of truth.

Quote from: LS on July 10, 2010, 06:02:28 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 10, 2010, 08:10:57 AM
The reconciliation of the cross is one way--God has reconciled man to himself.  But, man must still reconcile himself to God.  It's a two way street.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Bingo ... excellent post Molly.  And this is how I would reply to jabcat's question to me; it's not a complete reply, but it's something I'm still trying to study and to seek Truth on.

[/quote]

Can "WE" really do this, or again, is it speaking of a "mystery" - in that we can only do that when we're drawn by His spirit, empowered by Him to do so, and "ensured to endure" by the Beginner and Completer of our faith Who saves us by grace through the faith that HE gives us?

Did Paul reconcile himself to God, or did he only do it as God carried out His predestination of him to make him His son?  I believe the latter.  I don't believe we CAN reconcile ourselves to God whithout all the above occurring.  Otherwise, we're saving ourselves, and I don't believe we have within us the power to do that - hence the cross, grace, and mercy.  Again, the "I, yet not I".   :2c:

Quote from: shawn on July 09, 2010, 05:09:55 AM
That's hard for me to get around as well.  I wish for UR but lean towards ED mainly because of the vast number of scriptures talking about the destruction of the wicked.  It certainly could figurative...and a purificiation process but I don't see a significant scriptural support for it.  If there is a purification process...it's not announced with trumpets in the Bible.  I will say this though...I think God does hide some of his intent.  I think God will reward the few that are diligent to seek it out.  If the UR guys are a group that uncovered God's great plan of salvation hidden under years of man made dogma...wow.

Rediscovered would be more correct I think. There are many quotes etc from early church fathers that are very URish.

About ED. I agree with you ED is much more likely that ET. But where exactly does it really teach ED? I'm sure you will be able to show some verses. But I'm equally sure others will refute them.
I just have one simple question for you. What does the parable of the lost sheep means to you? Can in be aligned with ED?

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 08:00:20 PM

Quote from: LS on July 10, 2010, 06:02:28 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 10, 2010, 08:10:57 AM
The reconciliation of the cross is one way--God has reconciled man to himself.  But, man must still reconcile himself to God.  It's a two way street.

Quote2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Bingo ... excellent post Molly.  And this is how I would reply to jabcat's question to me; it's not a complete reply, but it's something I'm still trying to study and to seek Truth on.

Can "WE" really do this, or again, is it speaking of a "mystery" - in that we can only do that when we're drawn by His spirit, empowered by Him to do so, and "ensured to endure" by the Beginner and Completer of our faith Who saves us by grace through the faith that HE gives us?

Did Paul reconcile himself to God, or did he only do it as God carried out His predestination of him to make him His son?  I believe the latter.  I don't believe we CAN reconcile ourselves to God whithout all the above occurring.  Otherwise, we're saving ourselves, and I don't believe we have within us the power to do that - hence the cross, grace, and mercy.  Again, the "I, yet not I".   :2c:

I keep telling you that word 'mystery' means secrets given to initiates of religious rites.  Are we not, as priests, first initiates?  And, as initiates, privy to secrets?  I'll never tell.  [But we are given the mysteries withheld from the ages.]:gangel:

Yes, we can do it.  And, no we are not saving ourselves, just, let's say, reaching out for the extended hand.

"mystery"

G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 09, 2010, 11:26:48 PM
Saul of Tarsus was wicked,  is there any dispute in that?

One of the Christian fallacies is to depict Saul as a "special" case implying that  what happened Saul only happened to Saul and could not happen to any other being.

^KJVAct 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Dear Molly, you can't even take your next breath unless God enables you to take it.  But if you or anyone else is able to reconcile themselves to God on your own, that's great - (but I don't believe it  :happy3:).

Least ways, I can't.  I'm probably weaker than many.

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 08:13:41 PM
Dear Molly, you can't even take your next breath unless God enables you to take it.  But if you or anyone else is able to reconcile themselves to God on your own, that's great - (but I don't believe it  :happy3:).

I can't.

Then why is Paul begging people to reconcile themselves to God?

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2010, 08:04:30 PM
About ED. I agree with you ED is much more likely that ET. But where exactly does it really teach ED? I'm sure you will be able to show some verses. But I'm equally sure others will refute them.

I'm sure of that as well, and for that reason don't generally think it's helpful to argue verse-for-verse.  I do have a large list of verses that talk about people who perish, are destroyed, or are no more, and it really is a large number; far more than verses that speak of universalism or et (in my opinion).  

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2010, 08:04:30 PMI just have one simple question for you. What does the parable of the lost sheep means to you? Can in be aligned with ED?

I think so ... and can be summed up with John 10:26:
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

Quote from: Molly on July 10, 2010, 08:16:18 PM

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 08:13:41 PM
Dear Molly, you can't even take your next breath unless God enables you to take it.  But if you or anyone else is able to reconcile themselves to God on your own, that's great - (but I don't believe it  :happy3:).

I can't.

Then why is Paul begging people to reconcile themselves to God?

It's the encouragement to believe, "the invitation".  "How shall they hear without a preacher?".  

When we call on the name of Jesus to be saved, then we're reconciled.  But I don't believe we can even do that unless a) the Spirit draws us and b) God gives us the faith we need to believe.

I think I'll back out of this for awhile now.  I don't want to argue, or get in the spirit of arguing.  I've shared how I understand, and there's probably a point where keeping on doesn't convince anyone and it's best to find our common ground of unity.

Jesus is the Savior, He is our strength and refuge, a very present help in times of trouble.

Back later, God bless.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2010, 08:11:42 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 09, 2010, 11:26:48 PM
Saul of Tarsus was wicked,  is there any dispute in that?

One of the Christian fallacies is to depict Saul as a "special" case implying that  what happened Saul only happened to Saul and could not happen to any other being.

^KJVAct 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Can we go back to Saul/Paul for a moment?  What happened to Saul was an amazing transformation from events the LORD brought before Him.

Very similar events happened in the OT, with a very different outcome. Balaam was also on his donkey and also spoke with the LORD; he knew very well what God wanted him to do.

But unlike Paul, there was no great transformation - Balaam argued and continued on with the intention of opposing God.

That is a perfect example of what I think happens to all men. 

I think we are all born with a "knowing" of Him, and all of nature reveals His glory.
19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse (Rom 1)

Man is born with a kind of "knowing" in his heart:
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them (Rom 2:15)

... and ...

11 He has made everything appropriate to its time, and has put the timeless into their hearts, without men's ever discovering, from beginning to end, the work which God has done. (Ecc 3)

Those things cause man to seek. When we seek, He WILL reveal Himself to us:
29 Yet there too you shall seek the LORD, your God; and you shall indeed find him when you search after him with your whole heart and your whole soul. (Deut 4)

...and...

9 "And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11)

Jesus said "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.'' (John 6:44).

I think every man is "drawn" either toward light (good ... God the Father) or toward darkness (evil, the father of lies). It isn't by force, we are all given opportunity for each, and we choose which to pursue. Several Bible passages indicate that God will turn us over to our own desires. (I can provide those if you are interested).

Those who were drawn to the Father, are given into Jesus' care - placed in His body. Those who are drawn to and follow the father of lies, are not.

I think that every person from Adam & Eve to Abraham to Mary to Judas, could have made a different choice - they were free to do so. And God would still be in control, working all things for His glory. He is so far greater than any of us and uses it all, overcoming evil with good, and using it for His purposes. He doesn't "need" to force any of us and I believe it was His will and desire to create us in His image, free to choose to love Him or to reject Him.

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?
47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

I know that's kind of long, and I hope I was able to organize it so it makes sense ... but that is what I've come to believe in my studies.

Quote from: LS on July 10, 2010, 08:16:38 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2010, 08:04:30 PM
About ED. I agree with you ED is much more likely that ET. But where exactly does it really teach ED? I'm sure you will be able to show some verses. But I'm equally sure others will refute them.

I'm sure of that as well, and for that reason don't generally think it's helpful to argue verse-for-verse.  I do have a large list of verses that talk about people who perish, are destroyed, or are no more, and it really is a large number; far more than verses that speak of universalism or et (in my opinion).  

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2010, 08:04:30 PMI just have one simple question for you. What does the parable of the lost sheep means to you? Can in be aligned with ED?

I think so ... and can be summed up with John 10:26:
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

So Jesus is only the Shepherd of a small flock? The elect. All does mean all the elect not all of humanity?

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Psalm 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works
Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

For me it's clear that the flock of Jesus is 100% of humanity. But I'm aware that for many people all=elect.

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 08:22:28 PM
I think I'll back out of this for awhile now.  I don't want to argue, or get in the spirit of arguing.  I've shared how I understand, and there's probably a point where keeping on doesn't convince anyone and it's best to find our common ground of unity.

Jesus is the Savior, He is our strength and refuge, a very present help in times of trouble.

Back later, God bless.

I think I'm in about the same place as you - I hate arguing and I apologize to anyone if I've crossed a line or become argumentative.   :grouppray:

I have GREATLY enjoyed the discussions so far and may check back later this weekend whatever else unfolds  :thumbsup:

Blessings to you all and thank you for allowing the discussion.   :icon_flower:

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2010, 08:33:39 PM

Quote from: LS on July 10, 2010, 08:16:38 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2010, 08:04:30 PM
About ED. I agree with you ED is much more likely that ET. But where exactly does it really teach ED? I'm sure you will be able to show some verses. But I'm equally sure others will refute them.

I'm sure of that as well, and for that reason don't generally think it's helpful to argue verse-for-verse.  I do have a large list of verses that talk about people who perish, are destroyed, or are no more, and it really is a large number; far more than verses that speak of universalism or et (in my opinion).  

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2010, 08:04:30 PMI just have one simple question for you. What does the parable of the lost sheep means to you? Can in be aligned with ED?

I think so ... and can be summed up with John 10:26:
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

So Jesus is only the Shepherd of a small flock? The elect. All does mean all the elect not all of humanity?

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Psalm 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works
Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

For me it's clear that the flock of Jesus is 100% of humanity. But I'm aware that for many people all=elect.

We were posting at the same time, so I would like to answer this ... I don't believe it is a small flock, or an "elect."  

I made a longer post right before yours, and it explains how I see our place - we either belong to our Father in heaven, or to the father, the devil.  We belong because of choices we've made. Like Saul, we can "change course" or like Balaam, we can continue on.  For those, their end is destruction (Php 3:19, 2 Peter 2:12, and 2Th 1:9)

I hope that answers your question; I'm not intending it to argue with you, but only to clarify when you asked a question.

Peace to you, and thank you!

Quote from: LS on July 10, 2010, 08:39:16 PMWe were posting at the same time, so I would like to answer this ... I don't believe it is a small flock, or an "elect." 

Clear.

QuoteI made a longer post right before yours, and it explains how I see our place - we either belong to our Father in heaven, or to the father, the devil.

A glass darkly now :winkgrin:
There is a flock of the good Shepherd and a flock of the bad shepherd. Is that how you see it?

QuoteWe belong because of choices we've made. Like Saul, we can "change course" or like Balaam, we can continue on.

That one lost sheep made a choice by walking away. But still the shepherd did bling it back into the flock.
Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
Doesn't that verse mean the Good Shepherd is going to find all sheep? Also those that are in satan's flock?

QuoteI hope that answers your question; I'm not intending it to argue with you, but only to clarify when you asked a question.

I never saw it as an argument. Just a friendly chat. :thumbsup:
But it didn't answer my question. I just got more confused :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2010, 08:53:49 PM
But it didn't answer my question. I just got more confused :laughing7:

Sorry about that - I know I'm not the most eloquent and don't always express things in a way others understand   :mblush:  :happy3:

I really didn't intend to get into a big discussion with those of you with strong beliefs in universalism. I appreciate this site for what it is - a place for you all to safely exchange ideas and share your thoughts and beliefs and insights.  I have read here for a long time and think you are a very generous and kind group of believers.

I simply saw this thread with a few people who seemed to be questioning eternal destruction, which is something I strongly believe to be true. I think the more information we have, the more clear our understanding becomes, wherever the LORD leads us  :thumbsup:

Ok, I reallllllllllllly have to get some work done.  Again, thank you and may God bless you deeply   :cloud9:

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 08:00:20 PM

Quote from: LS on July 10, 2010, 06:02:28 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 10, 2010, 08:10:57 AM
The reconciliation of the cross is one way--God has reconciled man to himself.  But, man must still reconcile himself to God.  It's a two way street.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Bingo ... excellent post Molly.  And this is how I would reply to jabcat's question to me; it's not a complete reply, but it's something I'm still trying to study and to seek Truth on.

Can "WE" really do this, or again, is it speaking of a "mystery" - in that we can only do that when we're drawn by His spirit, empowered by Him to do so, and "ensured to endure" by the Beginner and Completer of our faith Who saves us by grace through the faith that HE gives us?

Did Paul reconcile himself to God, or did he only do it as God carried out His predestination of him to make him His son?  I believe the latter.  I don't believe we CAN reconcile ourselves to God whithout all the above occurring.  Otherwise, we're saving ourselves, and I don't believe we have within us the power to do that - hence the cross, grace, and mercy.  Again, the "I, yet not I".   :2c:

This is just one man's opinion on the matter but I believe regeneration only comes from God.  The knowledge that we need God can only come from God.  What we choose to do with that knowledge is how we reconcile ourselves to God.  While God can only make us aware of our need...we must make choices...ignore/reject the blood of Christ or accept and be transformed into the likeness of Christ.  When Saul was blinded that was a form of regeneration.  Without that event he would have been unaware of his need.  Did Saul/Paul have a choice to either serve or reject?  I believe so.   

Quote from: thinktank on July 09, 2010, 09:15:41 PM


He does love all of us, he sent his son to die for the world. The problem is that we don't love him or his ways and man loves darkness more than light. But God's will is for all to be saved and none perish.

But who's fault is that, are you implying it's OUR fault, we did not choose to be born I repeat, WE DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE BORN AS SINNERS, IT WAS THRUST UPON US WITHOUT OUR WILL OR CONSENT, SO WE ARE SCREWED BEFORE WE EVEN GET STARTED, this isn't love it's indifference at best and abuse and narcissism at worst

Romans 8v20-21

He does NOT love all, if all are not saved, to state that is a bold faced LIE

QuoteThis age we live in is a world of darkness with satan as its god. We in this life choose between the tree of life, or the tree of evil. Many people in this world are held captive by Satan and God says that we go to preach the gospel and set people free. Even though there are some scriptures that talk about God setting this up and that etc. The scriptures are clear that God is looking for men to establish his kingdom upon the earth. Our prayer is 'As it is in heaven be upon the Earth.'

He comes and knocks at the door

"if any man will"

As saints we are comisioned to establish Gods rule with our weapons which be not carnal but those weapons we use are spiritual weapons, we establish the Earth by seeding the heavens with our prayers, we set the captives free, we feed the poor, we cast out demons. All this is not done in our own strength but, for 'apart from me you can't do nothing' in Christs strength.

Satan is not here by mistake he has a goal and that is to thief, kill, destroy, his cunning is so and so that he tries to outwit God, but God in his mercy takes that evil and turns it into good, because unlike the devil and men God is good and he came that we might have life and have it more in abundance.

More sugarcoated claptrap and nonsensical drivel, to try deflect the blame onto us for something that's beyond our control and not our fault in the first place, besides the outcome has been rigged before it even got started and to deny it would be dishonest, or denying the truth

QuoteWe are here, we can either curse God or be thankful that we have been given this glorious opportunity to know Jesus Christ as lord and saviour. In a zillion years all the holy angels will never be able to experience what life is like with sin. God said that which is forgiven most will love the most, our experience here will make us love God more than anthing else, for we tasted darkness and only by tasting it do we realize how much that we love God and his righteousness. The people rejoice when the righteous are in power, but have a heavy heart when the wicked are in power.

We did not ASK to come into existence, with a sin nature imputed to us by default, who's fault is it that there is wickedness in the first place, your God stands back and does nothing and expects us to be grateful whilst he stands back and does nothing, he either wanted it that way or allowed it, there is no other conclusion that can be reached

shadow I have been where you are before, so I know how you feel. Trying to learn about God while angry is not going to help you much, because every answer seems inefficient. I encourage you to ask God to hear you and to fill your heart :HeartThrob: with the spirit of Jesus and to wash away the pain. Meditate on the blood of Jesus and see that blood wash away your worries and pains. After you feel clean, listen to some worship music so you can drink in his spirit.

The blood of Jesus washes away the pain, it is not just a legal thing, but also spiritual, for Jesus said to come into him and drink, drink my blood and eat my body.

You must contend for the faith, don't give up, the psalms are a great read to encourage your walk with christ.

Quote from: Shadow on July 10, 2010, 09:39:13 PMBut who's fault is that, are you implying it's OUR fault, we did not choose to be born I repeat, WE DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE BORN AS SINNERS, IT WAS THRUST UPON US WITHOUT OUR WILL OR CONSENT, SO WE ARE SCREWED BEFORE WE EVEN GET STARTED, this isn't love it's indifference at best and abuse and narcissism at worst.

Do you remember the both of us having a chat while we were in the waiting to get born?
I told you that card was not about your nicotine habit  :laughing7:
(http://www.ourlittleplace.com/images/eternity2.gif)

QuoteMore sugarcoated claptrap and nonsensical drivel, to try deflect the blame onto us for something that's beyond our control and not our fault in the first place, besides the outcome has been rigged before it even got started and to deny it would be dishonest, or denying the truth

^KJVJoh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Daddy is in control.

Quotehe either wanted it that way or allowed it, there is no other conclusion that can be reached

I go for wanted.

Cool down Shadow. You are writen in the Book of Life with a big fat marker :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 08:20:09 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 10, 2010, 08:16:18 PM

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2010, 08:13:41 PM
Dear Molly, you can't even take your next breath unless God enables you to take it.  But if you or anyone else is able to reconcile themselves to God on your own, that's great - (but I don't believe it  :happy3:).

I can't.

Then why is Paul begging people to reconcile themselves to God?

It's the encouragement to believe, "the invitation".  "How shall they hear without a preacher?".  

When we call on the name of Jesus to be saved, then we're reconciled.  But I don't believe we can even do that unless a) the Spirit draws us and b) God gives us the faith we need to believe.

:goodpost:  Perfect insight brother James...  :thumbsup:

The accomplishment of "reconciliation" is already DONE... but individual manifestation of it, IS TESTIFIED [via "knee bowing" and "tongue confession"] IN DUE TIME -- 1 Tim 2:6

Quote from: Shadowyour God stands back and does nothing and expects us to be grateful whilst he stands back and does nothing, he either wanted it that way or allowed it, there is no other conclusion that can be reached...

My God doesn't stand back and do nothing.

I prayed for a supertanker and I got one--on my birthday to boot!  ww is my witness!


For you Shadow--

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

 :cloud9: Molly, another one of you "slipped by me" with a birthday??? You guys need to edit your profile to include at least the day of your birthday, ok?  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on July 10, 2010, 11:02:53 PM

Quote from: Shadowyour God stands back and does nothing and expects us to be grateful whilst he stands back and does nothing, he either wanted it that way or allowed it, there is no other conclusion that can be reached...

My God doesn't stand back and do nothing.

I prayed for a supertanker and I got one--on my birthday to boot!  ww is my witness!
-----------------------------------------------------



For you Shadow--

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

I bet you had a whale of a time on your birthday!

<——  slipped by you too, Card! :upset:

willieH: Hi sister Shadow...  :friendstu:

T-tank gives nice encouragement to you below, ...but in the end, our STEPS are PURPOSELY ordered by Him -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- and the sorrows and joys along the pathway are necessary elements that must be endured, for at the end of the journey they contribute to the MAGNIFYING experience of the COMPLETENESS of JOY... 

We must shed tears, and endure sufferings for in them, as with JESUS, is PERFECTION being processed -- Heb 2:10

Quote from: thinktank on July 10, 2010, 10:01:37 PM
shadow I have been where you are before, so I know how you feel. Trying to learn about God while angry is not going to help you much, because every answer seems inefficient. I encourage you to ask God to hear you and to fill your heart :HeartThrob: with the spirit of Jesus and to wash away the pain. Meditate on the blood of Jesus and see that blood wash away your worries and pains. After you feel clean, listen to some worship music so you can drink in his spirit.

The blood of Jesus washes away the pain, it is not just a legal thing, but also spiritual, for Jesus said to come into him and drink, drink my blood and eat my body.

You must contend for the faith, don't give up, the psalms are a great read to encourage your walk with christ.

Here it is in a nutshell, Shadow:

Jer 29:13-14 --- And ye shall seek Me and find me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart... and ...I... WILL be found of YOU saith YHVH, and I will turn away YOUR CAPTIVITY and ...I... will gather YOU from ALL the NATIONS, and from ALL places whither ...I... HAVE DRIVEN YOU, saith YHVH... and ...I... will BRING YOU AGAIN, into the place whence ...I... CAUSED YOU to be CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE....

GOD decides both our CAPTIVITY as well as our DELIVERANCE... which comes at His descretion, for HE begins the process of your searching -- John 6:44 as WW has previously noted...

You are in GOOD HANDS... and know even in your despairs, that PEACE is your destiny...

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 10, 2010, 11:11:58 PM


<——  slipped by you too, Card! :upset:

:sigh: Geez, my apologies....don't know where I was then  :mblush:

Quote from: Molly on July 10, 2010, 11:02:53 PM
I prayed for a supertanker and I got one--on my birthday to boot!  ww is my witness!

Yes! Scouts honor  :laughing7:

BTW Molly does your husband knows you remarried?  :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2010, 10:23:40 PM
^KJVJoh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Daddy is in control.

Amen WW...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Shadow on July 10, 2010, 09:39:13 PM

Quote from: thinktank on July 09, 2010, 09:15:41 PM


He does love all of us, he sent his son to die for the world. The problem is that we don't love him or his ways and man loves darkness more than light. But God's will is for all to be saved and none perish.

But who's fault is that, are you implying it's OUR fault, we did not choose to be born I repeat, WE DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE BORN AS SINNERS, IT WAS THRUST UPON US WITHOUT OUR WILL OR CONSENT, SO WE ARE SCREWED BEFORE WE EVEN GET STARTED, this isn't love it's indifference at best and abuse and narcissism at worst

Romans 8v20-21

He does NOT love all, if all are not saved, to state that is a bold faced LIE

QuoteThis age we live in is a world of darkness with satan as its god. We in this life choose between the tree of life, or the tree of evil. Many people in this world are held captive by Satan and God says that we go to preach the gospel and set people free. Even though there are some scriptures that talk about God setting this up and that etc. The scriptures are clear that God is looking for men to establish his kingdom upon the earth. Our prayer is 'As it is in heaven be upon the Earth.'

He comes and knocks at the door

"if any man will"

As saints we are comisioned to establish Gods rule with our weapons which be not carnal but those weapons we use are spiritual weapons, we establish the Earth by seeding the heavens with our prayers, we set the captives free, we feed the poor, we cast out demons. All this is not done in our own strength but, for 'apart from me you can't do nothing' in Christs strength.

Satan is not here by mistake he has a goal and that is to thief, kill, destroy, his cunning is so and so that he tries to outwit God, but God in his mercy takes that evil and turns it into good, because unlike the devil and men God is good and he came that we might have life and have it more in abundance.

More sugarcoated claptrap and nonsensical drivel, to try deflect the blame onto us for something that's beyond our control and not our fault in the first place, besides the outcome has been rigged before it even got started and to deny it would be dishonest, or denying the truth

QuoteWe are here, we can either curse God or be thankful that we have been given this glorious opportunity to know Jesus Christ as lord and saviour. In a zillion years all the holy angels will never be able to experience what life is like with sin. God said that which is forgiven most will love the most, our experience here will make us love God more than anthing else, for we tasted darkness and only by tasting it do we realize how much that we love God and his righteousness. The people rejoice when the righteous are in power, but have a heavy heart when the wicked are in power.

We did not ASK to come into existence, with a sin nature imputed to us by default, who's fault is it that there is wickedness in the first place, your God stands back and does nothing and expects us to be grateful whilst he stands back and does nothing, he either wanted it that way or allowed it, there is no other conclusion that can be reached

I hear ya Shadow.  I've been there...done that.  There is alot of pain in life.  It can make you a bit jaded.  I think you suffer from some depression as well.  I have thought those thoughts.  I had alot to sort through.  I didn't ask to be born.  But, ya know what?  I'm here.  That's the reality of it.  Now I have a choice.  I can try to make the best of it...or sulk.  It's when I was tired of pouting that I decided I am going to make the best of this.  I am going to try to figure out why I was born in the first place.  I am going to try to enjoy my life.  I won't feed the depressive thoughts.  They won't own me.  My Christian roots helped guide me back to some balance and find some peace in this messed up world.

You are here...no getting around that.  If you really didn't want to be here...I figure you would have checked out long ago.  Why do you come here and discuss these matters?  I figure you are looking for a little peace like the rest of us.  Why are you angry?  I figure you are like most people...scared, hurt and pointing fingers.  Listen, I know all about it.  But, today I choose life.  Today I choose Christ...I choose something higher than myself.

So, what are you left with?  Looking for a few answers?  I'll give you just one man's take.  If UR guys are right...I can't imagine God holding you hostage in heaven for eternity.  If you get there...and want out...I bet he would give you your wish.  I just highly doubt you would want to go anywhere.  If the ED guys are right...then you will be put out of your misery.  It won't matter one bit in a 100 years how much you suffered in that case.  You won't remember it.  And while I can't rule out ET...I just don't see it.

That might seem a bit harsh...but it's the only way I could understand life/afterlife when I struggled with these questions.  I hope it helped you like it helped me.

When Jesus was walking around doing his miracles, he would always ask the people coming up to him---what do you want?  Now there are places where it is made clear that Jesus could read minds, but why would the Son of God, or anybody for that matter, who is doing miracles, ask a blind man--what do you want?  What miracle would you like today, Mr. Blind Man?  Of course he wants his sight, but Jesus would make them ask, almost without exception.

I asked for something for maybe 8 years or so once, before I received it.  Now, I have something else in mind and it's going on 11 years or so, but I have faith it will happen when the timing is perfect.

So there seems to be some kind of principle at work here.  And, sometimes it takes a leap of faith and a lot of patience, but we are encouraged to do our part,-- to ask, seek, knock--


7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

--Mat 7

 :cloud9: Yes, there is. Faith requires action. Even just asking is action. Get out of the boat, extend out your hand, take up your bed and walk, ect.

Hearing to us is different from what hearing to God is. To Him when He says "Hear" it means, hear AND obey/do something. He has given every man a measure of faith to receive Him (or from Him) and faith has to be activated, by doing.

That's why it says faith without works, is dead, as opposed to His resurrection life being manifested in some tangible way.

Hang in there Shadow...... :girlheart: Blessings...

I have agreement with both you ladies.  I guess my main point is, where does that ability to act come from?

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith *of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."  Galatians 2:20

(*.. saved by grace through faith, and THAT (faith) not of yourselves..)

In reality, we probably all 3 attempt to do the same thing - trust the Lord.   :thumbsup:

And we probably also agree, the credit belongs to Him.   Amen.

in Him we live and move and exist (Acts 17:28)

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.  John 15:5

Let me point something out here.  I'm a hypocrite.  Because I struggle and stress and "try to be a good Christian" to the point of often trusting in my own flesh, abilities, and efforts to try and please Him.  If anyone's read the things I've shared over the years, they may know that I do believe in obedience, submission to Him, taking up our cross, etc.  However, I was raised in a "performance" or lose it and go to hell mindset, and I've practiced that much of my life.  And even though vestiges of that are still present, I've learned and am learning, as the old hymn says, "the arm of flesh will fail you, you dare not trust your own".  So I'm still searching for a more proper level of walking in the Spirit and letting the works in me be the WORKS OF CHRIST IN ME rather than struggling in my own effort.

It probably has something to do with this being such an important and interesting topic for me.  It's something I'm still trying (there's that word again :mblush:) to find the balance in and learn - learning to trust Him above all else - and to give Him glory and credit.  

God bless, James.   :bigGrin:

 :cloud9: Jesus said He only did what He saw His Father do. Now while I think it's perfectly plausible and even likely He literally saw into the realm where Father is 24/7, I also think He was referring to what He "saw" in the scriptures.

IMO, the rest comes from doing what His Spirit is telling you to do at that moment in time, for that day. And so, getting our daily bread and eating it in the light of the candlestick.

I think this is why He said to take no thought for tomorrow, because if you do you're getting ahead of His instructions that He may not give you UNTIL tomorrow. Not doing that, the root of which, is probably some form of fear (isn't it always?). Blessings...

Quote from: CardinalIMO, the rest comes from doing what His Spirit is telling you to do at that moment in time, for that day. And so, getting our daily bread and eating it in the light of the candlestick.

That is so true.  The sailor sets his sails each day according to the wind.  And, sometimes, to get from here to there, it is necessary to go sideways [tack].



John 3:7-9
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."


1 Corinthians 12:11
11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.



Ezekiel 37:9
9Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."

willieH: Hi brother James... :hithere:

Quote from: jabcat on July 11, 2010, 08:56:57 AM
I have agreement with both you ladies.  I guess my main point is, where does that ability to act come from?

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith *of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."  Galatians 2:20

(*.. saved by grace through faith, and THAT (faith) not of yourselves..)

In reality, we probably all 3 attempt to do the same thing - trust the Lord.   :thumbsup:

And we probably also agree, the credit belongs to Him.   Amen.

You just used one of my very favorite, "GLORY giving" :giveheart: Scriptures...  :flowerred:

You are just right on, and on a particularly wise and great "roll" lately, bro James!

CHRIST is the AUTHOR and FINISHER... of FAITH (the abilty and experience of "believing") -- Heb 12:2 -- one that is "finishing" is the one actually "manifesting" it... as is noted in Jude 24-25...

willieH: Hi brother D... :hithere:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 10, 2010, 11:11:58 PM


<——  slipped by you too, Card! :upset:

When was your BD, David?   :dunno:

:Oops:  I am sorry I missed it as well!  :upset:

I really hope you had a great day!  :friendstu:

your friend...

willieH: Hi James...  :cloud9:

2 more of my favorites... :boogie:

Quote from: jabcat on July 11, 2010, 09:14:00 AM
in Him we live and move and exist (Acts 17:28)

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.  John 15:5

Let me point something out here.  I'm a hypocrite.  Because I struggle and stress and "try to be a good Christian" to the point of often trusting in my own flesh, abilities, and efforts to try and please Him.  If anyone's read the things I've shared over the years, they may know that I do believe in obedience, submission to Him, taking up our cross, etc.  However, I was raised in a "performance" or lose it and go to hell mindset, and I've practiced that much of my life.  And even though vestiges of that are still present, I've learned and am learning, as the old hymn says, "the arm of flesh will fail you, you dare not trust your own".  So I'm still searching for a more proper level of walking in the Spirit and letting the works in me be the WORKS OF CHRIST IN ME rather than struggling in my own effort.

It probably has something to do with this being such an important and interesting topic for me.  It's something I'm still trying (there's that word again :mblush:) to find the balance in and learn - learning to trust Him above all else - and to give Him glory and credit.  

God bless, James.   :bigGrin:

here is a big "AMEN" for you brother!

You are as the mighty Oak, brother J... growing taller and taller and taller, ...right before our eyes...  :thumbsup:

Hi Willie,

It was May 25.
I spend it alone with the Lord like so many others.
The peace He gives I simply can not live without anymore.

For me to go back into the world would take an "act of God."

Thanks for showing His love.

—dave

willieH: Hi Rebecca... :hithere:

Quote from: Cardinal on July 11, 2010, 10:00:28 AM
:cloud9: Jesus said He only did what He saw His Father do. Now while I think it's perfectly plausible and even likely He literally saw into the realm where Father is 24/7, I also think He was referring to what He "saw" in the scriptures.

IMO, the rest comes from doing what His Spirit is telling you to do at that moment in time, for that day. And so, getting our daily bread and eating it in the light of the candlestick.

I think this is why He said to take no thought for tomorrow, because if you do you're getting ahead of His instructions that He may not give you UNTIL tomorrow. Not doing that, the root of which, is probably some form of fear (isn't it always?). Blessings...

Wow!   :thumbsup:  a big "AMEN", for you too, sister R!  :cloud9:

Did you & James, jump into the "wisdom pool"  :teaching: for a quick dip?  :laughing7:

:first:  Great stuff!

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 12, 2010, 10:13:16 PM
Hi Willie,

It was May 25.
I spend it alone with the Lord like so many others.
The peace He gives I simply can not live without anymore.

For me to go back into the world would take an "act of God."

Thanks for showing His love.

—dave

:boyheart:  Hey... you are a great son of His, I am proud to know as my friend!  :friendstu:

If you spent it alone, with Him... in the end, I guess, you spent it with us all!  :grouppray: 

You're being too kind brother Willi.  Every good gift comes from the Father  :bigGrin:.  Thanks for the encouragement though.  

Stay tuned, I'll probably say something *stupid soon, and you can help me out with it.   :laughing7:

(Happy Birthday Dave)     *:this: wasn't it 

Quote from: LS on July 09, 2010, 04:34:41 AM

Quote from: pickr on July 09, 2010, 03:17:42 AM
let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest

Hi pickr - speaking for myself, I do not believe it will be "multitudes" who are utterly destroyed, but that's only my opinion.  I understand your reasoning, but for me the sheer number of passages that say the wicked are destroyed or perish or "are no more" is simply overwhelming.  I just wanted to clarify that on my part, and mean you no disrespect.   :mblush:

Hi LS,

No disrespect detected.

But if you understood my reasoning, perhaps you'd like to take a stab at reconciling a godly love that never ceases with your understanding of annihilation. And whether it is multitudes or only one is immaterial, really. The inherent contradictions still remain.

Go back and re-read how Paul defines love. Somehow, you have to square that with all those perishing and destroying scriptures you can't ignore. I'd be interested in how you'd go about that.

Blessings to you,

Andy

P.S. Of course, those of us in the UR camp have to harmonize the scriptures, too. Not placing any burden on you that we are not under as well.

P.P.S. I'm not around all that often, but I'll be back! :)

Quote from: pickr on July 26, 2010, 10:34:58 PM
Go back and re-read how Paul defines love. Somehow, you have to square that with all those perishing and destroying scriptures you can't ignore. I'd be interested in how you'd go about that.

Scripture tells us that when we embrace evil, God turns us over to our own depravity. (Rom 1:28-32) 

Scripture also tells us that there are some who hate the light. (John 3:20).

I sincerely believe there are some who so embrace evil that they hate God, and I believe it is, indeed, loving and merciful to allow them to cease to exist rather than to force them into His light and presence - the very thing they hate - forevermore. 

Some would say that once the veil is removed and we see Him as He is, everyone would desire to be with Him. But scripture does not support that, as we know that angels in His very presence abandoned their home with Him.

That is how I see it, though I'm sure most here would disagree.

Peace to you as well, Andy  :grouppray:

Quote from: LS on July 27, 2010, 12:13:00 AM

Quote from: pickr on July 26, 2010, 10:34:58 PM
Go back and re-read how Paul defines love. Somehow, you have to square that with all those perishing and destroying scriptures you can't ignore. I'd be interested in how you'd go about that.

I sincerely believe there are some who so embrace evil that they hate God, and I believe it is, indeed, loving and merciful to allow them to cease to exist rather than to force them into His light and presence - the very thing they hate - forevermore. 

Yet we are still left with the fact that God loves such a person in the very way Paul described to the Corinthians. Loved ones are missed and mourned when they go away, and the idea of a loved one's utter destruction is too horrible to even contemplate. I cannot believe God intends Himself to be in endless misery and mourning over those He could not save.

QuoteSome would say that once the veil is removed and we see Him as He is, everyone would desire to be with Him. But scripture does not support that, as we know that angels in His very presence abandoned their home with Him.

I think what I would say is that the prophetic word already has been uttered that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord... all to the glory of God. I don't pretend to know how that will work itself through time and dispensations, exactly, but I trust that this prophecy is a true one.

Thanks for the reply, LS.

Andy

P.S. Would it be "self-seeking" of God to save those who reject and hate Him?

"Love ... is not self-seeking" (1 Cor 13:4)




edited to add - oops! We were posting at the same time! You're welcome for the reply, and I appreciate your gentle response.  :grouppray:

QuoteP.S. Would it be "self-seeking" of God to save those who reject and hate Him?

"Love ... is not self-seeking" (1 Cor 13:4)

It's self seeking to force a person to come into existence in the first place, KNOWING they would reject and hate him, I mean what's the point

Why not bypass all the evil and suffering in the world and create perfection in the first place

FWIW I don't mind not existing

Quote from: Shadow on July 27, 2010, 08:44:03 AM
Why not bypass all the evil and suffering in the world and create perfection in the first place

Because GOD IS BIG! and He is making us in His Image and Likeness. How can you be a Divine being that is BIG, REALLY BIG if you never go through anything?

Quote from: reFORMer on July 27, 2010, 09:06:30 AM
[
Because GOD IS BIG! and He is making us in His Image and Likeness. How can you be a Divine being that is BIG, REALLY BIG if you never go through anything?

Oh really, where does it say we are going to be divine beings that are going to become REALLY, REALLY BIG

BTW, my previous response was directed at THIS REALLY BIG GOD not being forced to save people that don't love him - my question why bring them into existence in the first place when he KNOWS they won't love him, remember I was addressing "self-seeking"

Quote from: Shadow on July 27, 2010, 04:51:03 PM

Quote from: reFORMer on July 27, 2010, 09:06:30 AM
[
Because GOD IS BIG! and He is making us in His Image and Likeness. How can you be a Divine being that is BIG, REALLY BIG if you never go through anything?

Oh really, where does it say we are going to be divine beings that are going to become REALLY, REALLY BIG

BTW, my previous response was directed at THIS REALLY BIG GOD not being forced to save people that don't love him - my question why bring them into existence in the first place when he KNOWS they won't love him, remember I was addressing "self-seeking"

You make several presumptions when you put God on trial.  First, you assume we didn't have a choice about our earthly birth.  I see no Bible verse that states our earthly birth was the event that brought our soul into existence.  What if we did choose to be placed on earth?  You also assume that suffering has no good or perfect value.  I would beg to differ.  My greatest spiritual insights and awakenings came from pain.  I believe the sufferings of an earthly life are there to reveal the nature of God and to advance us towards spiritual perfection.  I have no idea how God works out judgement nor do I have to in order to serve him.

It behooves a created creature to submit to the Creator rather than attempt to judge his divine justice.  How can the created ever have significant insight to judge the Creator?  Again, with my very limited insight, refuse to put God on trial.  How can I understand the justice of God?  How can a creature living in a 4D universe ever understand that which resides and governs a 10D+ universe?  It's presumptuous to think otherwise.

Quote from: LS on July 27, 2010, 12:13:00 AM

Quote from: pickr on July 26, 2010, 10:34:58 PM
Go back and re-read how Paul defines love. Somehow, you have to square that with all those perishing and destroying scriptures you can't ignore. I'd be interested in how you'd go about that.

Scripture tells us that when we embrace evil, God turns us over to our own depravity. (Rom 1:28-32) 

Scripture also tells us that there are some who hate the light. (John 3:20).

I sincerely believe there are some who so embrace evil that they hate God, and I believe it is, indeed, loving and merciful to allow them to cease to exist rather than to force them into His light and presence - the very thing they hate - forevermore. 

Some would say that once the veil is removed and we see Him as He is, everyone would desire to be with Him. But scripture does not support that, as we know that angels in His very presence abandoned their home with Him.

That is how I see it, though I'm sure most here would disagree.

Peace to you as well, Andy  :grouppray:

Me and you are on the same page, (together we can defeat these evil universalists :winkgrin:) but here's something I pondered on. Most people or all people do not know Jesus Christ in full and especially evil people. We only see through the glass darkly and nobody has had a full revelation of the love of Jesus Christ. So how much can love change a person?
I think love can change people greatly, how many people truly love evil more than love?
Unlike Satan who once was part of heaven, people do not know God as much as he did.


Also during the 1000 millenium peace, I don't belive that Jesus will be accessible to the masses, but only to the saints, for flesh and blood cannot see God, so the only source of truth that people will get from God during the millenium would be from the Jewish nation, Abraham, Issac and Jacob, so even then they don't get a full idea of God.
(this is something i'm working on, so don't quote me on this bit above)

The disciples asked Jesus

Who then can be saved?
With men things are impossible, but with God all things are possible

I think that there proves that God will not force anybody to make him love him, otherwise he would say "im God fools I can do whatever I want" and I think the idea is absurd. A man doesn't woe a girl by taking her by force but romances her and then she can say yes or no.
There's nothing glorifying about God forcing people to love him, but it is glory on the other hand for people who willingly worship him because of his absolute brilliance that even the wicked have to take off their hats and say truly truly you are the rightfull God. There are scriptures which do indicate that all will be saved, such as

"in Adam all die, but in Christ all shall be made alive"

Howeven i'm not one of those who simply ignores those other scriptures, which point to damnation, but in the context that God saves everyone, perhaps those damnation scriptures are stating something, such as punishment for the wicked, even though they might get saved eventually.

QuoteYou make several presumptions when you put God on trial.  First, you assume we didn't have a choice about our earthly birth.  I see no Bible verse that states our earthly birth was the event that brought our soul into existence.  What if we did choose to be placed on earth?  You also assume that suffering has no good or perfect value.  I would beg to differ.  My greatest spiritual insights and awakenings came from pain.  I believe the sufferings of an earthly life are there to reveal the nature of God and to advance us towards spiritual perfection.  I have no idea how God works out judgement nor do I have to in order to serve him.

It behooves a created creature to submit to the Creator rather than attempt to judge his divine justice.  How can the created ever have significant insight to judge the Creator?  Again, with my very limited insight, refuse to put God on trial.  How can I understand the justice of God?  How can a creature living in a 4D universe ever understand that which resides and governs a 10D+ universe?  It's presumptuous to think otherwise.

So you really think we had a choice as to whether or not we wanted to exist, wherever did you get that idea from

Forgive me for using the brain I was given and daring to question anything, forgive me for not being a stepfordized clone that just accepts things

How DARE I question the prospect that that majority of creation is headed for perdition, how utterly evil, thoughtless and self centered of me

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PM

Me and you are on the same page, (together we can defeat these evil universalists :winkgrin:)  

So after 400+ posts, you have thrown down the gauntlet, stopped pussyfutting around  and revealed your true purpose for coming on here, why were you not honest initially

Quote from: Shadow on July 27, 2010, 04:51:03 PM

Quote from: reFORMer on July 27, 2010, 09:06:30 AM
[
Because GOD IS BIG! and He is making us in His Image and Likeness. How can you be a Divine being that is BIG, REALLY BIG if you never go through anything?

Oh really, where does it say we are going to be divine beings that are going to become REALLY, REALLY BIG

BTW, my previous response was directed at THIS REALLY BIG GOD not being forced to save people that don't love him - my question why bring them into existence in the first place when he KNOWS they won't love him, remember I was addressing "self-seeking"

We are individuals and God has given us choice to do whatever we want. I don't believe God is similar to those old fashioned Greek type Gods who control our future, but rather, that God sets the rules, gives us a garden of Eden to play in and says, now do whatever you want, and that includes murdering, such as what Cain did or to worship such as Abraham. This is the only way one can make sense of this world as to why God allows the innocent to suffer brutality. We make the choices, within this age and even though those choices are sometimes limited, we do have choice in what actions we take and this includes your parents having you born, you did not choose that, but they did and you have to live with that and choose to make your own choices, to forgive or to hate, etc. If you cannot forgive, even if you want too then you need guidance and help and that is normal. Since you are here take advantage of the fact that rules are much less rigid than in heaven, and to me that is a blessing that we can make mistakes and learn from them.

Quote from: Shadow on July 27, 2010, 06:30:50 PM

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PM

Me and you are on the same page, (together we can defeat these evil universalists :winkgrin:)  

So after 400+ posts, you have thrown down the gauntlet, stopped pussyfutting around  and revealed your true purpose for coming on here, why were you not honest initially

It was a joke I'm not an idiot. I'm greatfull that the people here allow me to post the the things I say, for my posts are not mainstream as such, so it's nice that they handle my posts, sometime I would rather they be a bit calmer, but nevertheless have shown great patience with some of my contraversial posts.

God bless the people here in Jesus name.

 I dont accept either Annihilationism teaching or Eternal Torment teaching, they are conjectures of men, not founded on the Word of God. I do not understand why the believers and saints cannot discuss the Word of God with all its wonders... and leave man religions, theorys, and thoughts to the discussions and debates regarding mans religions, theorys, and deductions; throw them all together with the current events of the day and politics...
If the believers and saints discuss and debate, let it be with reproof and corrections found in the Word, not the encyclopedias and mans work of mans thoughts and queeries of the hows and whys man of mans small amount of knowledge.
I like the sound of this   
Rom 5:19  for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :happy3:

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:34:17 PM
We are individuals and God has given us choice to do whatever we want. I don't believe God is similar to those old fashioned Greek type Gods who control our future

Really?  Why not?  Because HE being IN CONTROL, displaces YOU? :dunno:

The TEMPLE of God is MAN, within the Heart of man -- 2 Cor 6:16

Who is it really, which "sits in the temple" deciding he/she is "GOD" -- 2 Thess 2:4 -- T-tank?   Is it not YOU?  Is it not ME?

Is there some "red guy with a pitchfork" inside YOU, deciding what YOU shall do?  Or is it YOU?  I can't and won't speak for you, but I know that of myself, I can DO NOTHING concerning GOD, for I am not greater than was my Savior -- John 5:19

It is WE which must DIE to OURSELVES -- 1 Cor 15:31 -- Rom 12:1-2 -- that GOD might LIVE in us -- Gal 2:20 -- we DESTROY adversity, by eliminating OURSELVES from the decision making "choosings"... in favor of HIM and HIS "CHOOSINGS"

How do you explain such as this? --->  Eph 1:11 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:28

It will be interesting to see how you can create evasiveness to these...  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:34:17 PMbut rather, that God sets the rules, gives us a garden of Eden to play in and says, now do whatever you want

What a very HEARTY EXAGGERATION!  Where in the Scriptures is this noted, T-tank?  Where does it say that GOD told man to "do whatever you want"?

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:34:17 PMand that includes murdering, such as what Cain did or to worship such as Abraham.

Here in PLAIN English is what went down concerning Cain & Abel... Again, it will be interesting to see how you attempt to create evasiveness to it...  :laughing7:

What you (as do most) fail to consider is that the KNOWLEDGE of this "murder" was already KNOWN prior to its actual physical manifestation.  :dontknow:  And if indeed it was PERFECTLY KNOWN before it occured, it (as manifest) could not have been avoided, otherwise the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE which already "KNEW" of it, would be concluded as  IMPERFECT.  (like many "predict" the outcome of a horse race or football season).

Conclusively, the PRIOR KNOWLEDGE of it (the murder), being PERFECT (which means COMPLETE), means that this deed could not be AVOIDED within physical manifestation, otherwise the event, in being "avoided" shows the KNOWLEDGE of IT to be INCOMPLETE and IMPERFECT!

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:34:17 PMThis is the only way one can make sense of this world as to why God allows the innocent to suffer brutality.

As long as you remain in the "box" T-tank, which esteems itself as having the "truth", you shall learn no more, and continue to ignore.  However, if you might step OUT of your box... you have much to see which shall be availed to you through the eyes of REASON... 

I won't say you are wrong, just that you are veiled... not having taken into consideration that this realm was PERFECTLY outlined before even 1 second of it took place.  God, in -- Isaiah 46:10 -- notes that He DECLARED (using His WORD), the End from the Beginning... the THINGS NOT ...YET ...DONE...

How many "things" do you think that might be, T-tank?  Please use REASON in your answer (that is, if you do answer instead of IGNORE)...  If NOTHING had taken place... how many THINGS had YET TO BE DONE?

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:34:17 PMWe make the choices, within this age and even though those choices are sometimes limited

This is WAY over-estimating the power of choice.  ALL CHOICE is LIMITED, to options available to choose FROM... If my dog needs to "pee"... she has the "choice" to pee In the house or Outside the house...  she has no other options, say In the walls or On the roof, or In the car, or On the top of the fence...  even though these are existent options, they are not AVAILABLE to her... 

Your "choosing" is confined in the very same way, you just have not considered that your "choosing" is confined.  Something CONFINED is not FREE, nor is it UNLIMITED. 

I challenge you to name even ONE THING that is subject to your power of "choosing" which is UNINHIBITED by any CONFINING and/or LIMITING parameters... Just one...  :laughing7:

:laughhand:  In case you missed it, here it comes again:




Let me give you example...

EXAMPLE --- Let's say that you contend that "BY YOUR CHOICE" you can "choose" to EAT anything you like...  :grin:

Hmmm, can you EAT your car?  Or can you EAT your house?  How about EATING your favorite football team?  Or maybe EATING the street in front of your house? How about EATING the MOON, can you do that? Or EAT Mount Everest?  :laughhand:

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:34:17 PMwe do have choice in what actions we take and this includes your parents having you born, you did not choose that, but they did and you have to live with that and choose to make your own choices

What cop-out is this...   :Whistle:

You had no CHOICE in being born, but you have (are FORCED) to live with it?  That sounds like your entire LIFE began by the insertion of you into a scenario in which your CHOOSING shall be LIMITED throughout that LIFE, but you had NO CHOICE as to entering this scenario of LIMITED, predecided choosing!

The labeling or categorizing of the LIMITED "choices" which were eventually made AVAILABLE to you, was also done WITHOUT your consent (whether they would be considered evil or good)... EVIL choices were declared EVIL before YOU had a chance to consider them... as well as GOOD, so your "choosing" was further inhibited and done aside from, you and your power to "choose" from them.

Not only that, here are a few of MYRIADS of examples as to the LIMITATION of "choice":

(1) the ERA in which you were born, inhibits your choosing -- a person born in 500 A.D. could not "choose" to take the subway to work, or read a Stephen King novel...

(2) the parents you were born to LIMITS your choosing -- a person born to a homeless parent, can't just "choose" to buy a new Porche, or take a European vacation in Rome...

(3) the gender you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a female cannot "choose" to be a father

(4) the city you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a person born in Central Kansas, cannot "choose" to go the beach...

(5) the person striken with cancer, cannot just "choose" to be healthy...

(6) the person amidst a famine, cannot just "choose" to not be hungry...

(7) the person born Chinese, cannot just "choose" to be a Caucasion...

(8) the person born with no arms cannot "choose" to play the piano...

(9) the wealthiest person in the world cannot by their "choice", ...make another to love them...

I could name things all day, that coincide with REASON, ...and that firmly display that the power of "CHOICE" is ALWAYS inhibited, confined, or LIMITED in EVERY INSTANCE, by the OPTIONS which GOD has made available to "choose from"...

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:34:17 PMto forgive or to hate, etc. If you cannot forgive, even if you want too then you need guidance and help and that is normal. Since you are here take advantage of the fact that rules are much less rigid than in heaven, and to me that is a blessing that we can make mistakes and learn from them.

The "rules" are the same here as they are in Heaven... We have been PURPOSED to break them in the LIVING DISPLAY [man] of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, as ETERNALLY and UNCHANGINGLY, ...KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH God, which DECLARED ALL THINGS before they occured.

Get used to it my new friend, T-tank... this LIFE is NOT about YOU... nor about me... this is about OUR GOD, and HIS wonderful WISDOMS revealed, which include the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL. 

The sooner that anyone in humility, take ones eyes off ONESELF (and ones "choosings"), the sooner that one shall KNOW GOD, and that ALL is emergent FROM [by] HIM, and FOR HIM (not "for" you or "for" me) -- Col 1:16

Then within the HUMILITY and MAJESTY of the ABANDONMENT of SELF, ...shall one KNOW that YHVH is GOD... and that we are HIS PLEASURE, ...COMPLETELY HIS, ...to do with as He so pleases -- Rom 9:20 [why hast thou MADE ME THUS?] -- Isaiah 46:10 [I WILL DO all MY pleasure --- that being with -- ALL THINGS not yet done!]

Hello willie, thank you for replying to my post in a gentle manner.

Quote from: thinktank on Today at 11:34:17 AM
We are individuals and God has given us choice to do whatever we want. I don't believe God is similar to those old fashioned Greek type Gods who control our future

Really?  Why not?  Because HE being IN CONTROL, displaces YOU?

No because I belive that love is about service and gives, these old fashioned type of gods, just did things almost like scientists where life is just a game. But I believe that God is similar to an earthly parents who does not use a remote control to control the kids but rather steer them in the right direction with first a nourishing environment [baby] =(garden of eden) then into [toddler] (This is what you cannot don't touch that socket] kiddo (Let them on the bike and fall off)= The fall, [ Teenager] 10 commandments [house rules] Young adult {Jesus demonstrates his love] Adult [ Choose this day whom you will serve good or evil]

grandparent [died, but resurected either resurected towards, reliving childish youth, or resurected into judgment,= miserable grandparent, until they come to the light of Jesus [prozac]:)

disclaimer
I don't advocate drug usage

I need some help getting this right, lol. Cardinal is good with these bracket things.


Who is it really, which "sits in the temple" deciding he/she is "GOD" -- 2 Thess 2:4 -- T-tank?   Is it not YOU?  Is it not ME?

Yes we are as gods knowing good and evil. Choose this day whom you will serve God or mammon.



Is there some "red guy with a pitchfork" inside YOU, deciding what YOU shall do?  Or is it YOU?  I can't and won't speak for you, but I know that of myself, I can DO NOTHING concerning GOD, for I am not greater than was my Savior -- John 5:19

The devil is in the details but so is God. God ultimately is the source of all things so whether I do evil or good God gave me that ability of life. But to do good is a hard thing who can bear it, but Christ empowers us to do good.

It is WE which must DIE to OURSELVES -- 1 Cor 15:31 -- Rom 12:1-2 -- that GOD might LIVE in us -- Gal 2:20 -- we DESTROY adversity, by eliminating OURSELVES from the decision making "choosings"... in favor of HIM and HIS "CHOOSINGS"

He said crucify yourself daily

It's not a once done deal, we must continually resist the carnality of the flesh that desires to lust and pride. Therefore even as Christians we choose between Gods way and ours. To add a little extra dimension to this, even if one crucifies oneself we are still in the drivers seat, God is the codriver, who directs our path. If God is doing the driving once we become a Christian, then by now the world would be Christ like.  God seldom gives precise directions, he gives encouragment and so forth but many things such as choosing where to work is something we must use wisdom for.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.


What a very HEARTY EXAGGERATION!  Where in the Scriptures is this noted, T-tank?  Where does it say that GOD told man to "do whatever you want"?

Ok let me be more precise, God gives the rules e.g 10 commandments and we make choices within the limits that God has given mankind.

What you (as do most) fail to consider is that the KNOWLEDGE of this "murder" was already KNOWN prior to its actual physical manifestation.    And if indeed it was PERFECTLY KNOWN before it occured, it (as manifest) could not have been avoided, otherwise the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE which already "KNEW" of it, would be concluded as  IMPERFECT.  (like many "predict" the outcome of a horse race or football season).

Conclusively, the PRIOR KNOWLEDGE of it (the murder), being PERFECT (which means COMPLETE), means that this deed could not be AVOIDED within physical manifestation, otherwise the event, in being "avoided" shows the KNOWLEDGE of IT to be INCOMPLETE and IMPERFECT!

Yes and God allowed it to happen despite prior knowledge, notice that he allowed the very thing {Thou shall not murder] that Gods will is against, which supports my post of cain having the choice to make that choice, why didn't cain just thief a sheep from Abel if he was inclined towards evil, but instead chooses to slew him out of his jealousy. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts and malice said Jesus.


As long as you remain in the "box" T-tank, which esteems itself as having the "truth", you shall learn no more, and continue to ignore.  However, if you might step OUT of your box... you have much to see which shall be availed to you through the eyes of REASON...

I won't say you are wrong, just that you are veiled... not having taken into consideration that this realm was PERFECTLY outlined before even 1 second of it took place.  God, in -- Isaiah 46:10 -- notes that He DECLARED (using His WORD), the End from the Beginning... the THINGS NOT ...YET ...DONE...

How many "things" do you think that might be, T-tank?  Please use REASON in your answer (that is, if you do answer instead of IGNORE)...  If NOTHING had taken place... how many THINGS had YET TO BE DONE?

I am addressing situations that happen in this age, such as shadow who is not happy, NOW currently- and how to deal with the miserable conditions here upon Earth as they stand, therefore seeing things inside a box is inevitable. In fact as I tend to think outside of the box here is a quote for ya.

"All people think inside a box, either the box expands or it contracts for only God is unlimited"
ThinkTank

Maybe in generations to come they'll be quoting thinktank :)



Your "choosing" is confined in the very same way, you just have not considered that your "choosing" is confined.  Something CONFINED is not FREE, nor is it UNLIMITED.

You seemed to have missed this part in bold

We make the choices, within this age and even though those choices are sometimes limited

If my dog needs to "pee"... she has the "choice" to pee In the house or Outside the house...  she has no other options, say In the walls or On the roof, or In the car, or On the top of the fence...  even though these are existent options, they are not AVAILABLE to her...

She's not allowed to pee on the wall, cruel man, call animal rescue quick.;) Nah im sure you take good care of her. :winkgrin:


I challenge you to name even ONE THING that is subject to your power of "choosing" which is UNINHIBITED by any CONFINING and/or LIMITING parameters... Just one...  laughing7

laughhand  In case you missed it, here it comes again:

Ok that one thing I can do hmmm, got it, I'll give ya a clue, it's part of my screen name;)

Do I get a $5000 prize?

Hmmm, can you EAT your car?  Or can you EAT your house?  How about EATING your favorite football team?  Or maybe EATING the street in front of your house? How about EATING the MOON, can you do that? Or EAT Mount Everest?  laughhand

I think many women comment that they would eat David Beckam. Hansel and Gretel also eat a house made of candy. As for mount everest, if ye have faith the size of a mustard seed ye shall say unto that mountain, be thou changed into Mcdonalds and it shall be given unto you.
:icon_joker:


What cop-out is this...   Whistle

You had no CHOICE in being born, but you have (are FORCED) to live with it?  That sounds like your entire LIFE began by the insertion of you into a scenario in which your CHOOSING shall be LIMITED throughout that LIFE, but you had NO CHOICE as to entering this scenario of LIMITED, predecided choosing!

The labeling or categorizing of the LIMITED "choices" which were eventually made AVAILABLE to you, was also done WITHOUT your consent (whether they would be considered evil or good)... EVIL choices were declared EVIL before YOU had a chance to consider them... as well as GOOD, so your "choosing" was further inhibited and done aside from, you and your power to "choose" from them

That's what I'm saying, but people throughout history continually look at what they CANNOT do instead of enjoying and appreciating what they CAN do and everything we can do has been given to us by God, but by our disobedience and rebellion we go against that which is good and do that which is evil.

The argument that we are slaves to sin is no longer valid in todays world, for God said, we are either slaves to sin or to righteousness. God came to Empower us to do that which we could not do before the death of Christ. Doing good is much harder than evil, but God never said it would be easy, in fact he continually said its a tough road, the road is narrow that leads to life. But the thing is, imagine how much better life would be if people stopped being so selfish and instead did that which is good.

The more people that do good, the easier it is for everyone else to do good also, it has a knock on effect, and this is one thing that Jesus has accomplished, but even now the amount of good that Christians do in the world is pretty poor and the world should be a better place to live in, but many Christians still do that which is evil, try and explain that?

Look at towns that have a unselfish attitude, their community service and kindness to their neigbours makes living a delight, because they all practice it, but try being the light in a community of darkness and it'll be hell, it takes great courage and the dark forces there will not enjoy your presence.

Its Gods will that all be saved, even now

Now is come salvation

It's Gods will all be healed, but the church is too weak to perform healing miracles, where are the churches that heal the sick? More interested in religion and apearing holy than ministering to the outcasts and excercising the power of Jesus, didn't the apostle Paul say that in the last days, they would have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.





(1) the ERA in which you were born, inhibits your choosing -- a person born in 500 A.D. could not "choose" to take the subway to work, or read a Stephen King novel...

Nay, but they can choose to jump on a horse or to take a mule such as Jesus did. They can listen to bible stories or listen to the great exploits of Ceasar.

(2) the parents you were born to LIMITS your choosing -- a person born to a homeless parent, can't just "choose" to buy a new Porche, or take a European vacation in Rome...

No, but they can determine in their heart that they will not make the same mistakes as their parents, the poor of this world tend to have poor attitudes, weak attitudes, but some of the poor develop a good attitude rags to riches stories are not just fantasy but for real, check them out. The reasons why the poor are poor are as numerous as books, obviosly some are victims, but many are victims of their own dissmal attitude. What ye reap ya sow.

(3) the gender you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a female cannot "choose" to be a father

These days I'm not so sure :laughing7:

(4) the city you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a person born in Central Kansas, cannot "choose" to go the beach...

Wanna bet!

(5) the person striken with cancer, cannot just "choose" to be healthy...

No but they can determine in their heart that health is what God provided for them and paid with stripes for. Any sick among you, call the elders and they shall pray and they shall recover. Miracle stories again are for real, check them out.

(6) the person amidst a famine, cannot just "choose" to not be hungry...

The man in India might disagree, he has lived for 70 years without food!

(7) the person born Chinese, cannot just "choose" to be a Caucasion...

No but they can enjoy their ethnicity and make the most of their culture and the enjoyments that they have or they can live life in jealousy of their caucasion cousins

(8) the person born with no arms cannot "choose" to play the piano...
I saw a woman with no arms, who looked after her baby by herself and changed nappies with her feet!

(9) the wealthiest person in the world cannot by their "choice", ...make another to love them...

But how much many people would love them if they gave of their riches to them in their despair, would the starving person appreciate/love the kind person who would give of their substance to feed them, of course they would. But by their "choice" some do not give and so how can they be loved?
Bill gates for example is a very wealthy man who is loved by many, including me, who has gave billions of his wealth to charities.



The "rules" are the same here as they are in Heaven... We have been PURPOSED to break them in the LIVING DISPLAY [man] of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, as ETERNALLY and UNCHANGINGLY, ...KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH God, which DECLARED ALL THINGS before they occured.

I don't think it helps the wicked to know this, for they want an excuse to sin, blaming God for their misfortune or evil, that is something that Job did, but God told him to be quiet and in the end received more than what he had before the destruction. But would God have blessed him if his attitude was continually blaming God?
Should I Infect  this forum with virus and blame God for that? no you people would look at me and say, repent for your evil, for out of the heart proceeds such an evil thought.


Get used to it my new friend, T-tank... this LIFE is NOT about YOU... nor about me... this is about OUR GOD, and HIS wonderful WISDOMS revealed, which include the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.

The sooner that anyone in humility, take ones eyes off ONESELF (and ones "choosings"), the sooner that one shall KNOW GOD, and that ALL is emergent FROM [by] HIM, and FOR HIM (not "for" you or "for" me) -- Col 1:16

Then within the HUMILITY and MAJESTY of the ABANDONMENT of SELF, ...shall one KNOW that YHVH is GOD... and that we are HIS PLEASURE, ...COMPLETELY HIS, ...to do with as He so pleases -- Rom 9:20 [why hast thou MADE ME THUS?] -- Isaiah 46:10 [I WILL DO all MY pleasure --- that being with -- ALL THINGS not

Good im glad you call me new friend and God is the source of all life and all that is good, you sayest truly to love God with all your heart strength and soul and to love your neighbour as oneself.

Quote from: shawn on July 27, 2010, 06:06:35 PM
You make several presumptions when you put God on trial.  First, you assume we didn't have a choice about our earthly birth.  I see no Bible verse that states our earthly birth was the event that brought our soul into existence.  What if we did choose to be placed on earth?  You also assume that suffering has no good or perfect value.  I would beg to differ.  My greatest spiritual insights and awakenings came from pain.  I believe the sufferings of an earthly life are there to reveal the nature of God and to advance us towards spiritual perfection.  I have no idea how God works out judgement nor do I have to in order to serve him.

It behooves a created creature to submit to the Creator rather than attempt to judge his divine justice.  How can the created ever have significant insight to judge the Creator?  Again, with my very limited insight, refuse to put God on trial.  How can I understand the justice of God?  How can a creature living in a 4D universe ever understand that which resides and governs a 10D+ universe?  It's presumptuous to think otherwise.

Hi Shawn - I just want you to know that your post was a real blessing to me - thank you  :cloud9:

Quote from: Shadow on July 27, 2010, 06:26:52 PM

QuoteYou make several presumptions when you put God on trial.  First, you assume we didn't have a choice about our earthly birth.  I see no Bible verse that states our earthly birth was the event that brought our soul into existence.  What if we did choose to be placed on earth?  You also assume that suffering has no good or perfect value.  I would beg to differ.  My greatest spiritual insights and awakenings came from pain.  I believe the sufferings of an earthly life are there to reveal the nature of God and to advance us towards spiritual perfection.  I have no idea how God works out judgement nor do I have to in order to serve him.

It behooves a created creature to submit to the Creator rather than attempt to judge his divine justice.  How can the created ever have significant insight to judge the Creator?  Again, with my very limited insight, refuse to put God on trial.  How can I understand the justice of God?  How can a creature living in a 4D universe ever understand that which resides and governs a 10D+ universe?  It's presumptuous to think otherwise.

So you really think we had a choice as to whether or not we wanted to exist, wherever did you get that idea from

Forgive me for using the brain I was given and daring to question anything, forgive me for not being a stepfordized clone that just accepts things

How DARE I question the prospect that that majority of creation is headed for perdition, how utterly evil, thoughtless and self centered of me

Where did you get the idea that we didn't?  Making presumptions can only lead us to incorrect conclusions...conclusions that can hinder our spiritual growth and joy.  I have no idea if our souls preceded birth but I see nothing Biblically that says they didn't.  It's mere speculation...much like the idea that our soul was created when we entered our mother's womb. There are too many unknowns to take into account to ever put God on trial.  We all start from a place of ignorance then have the audacity to judge God.  Listen, I'm speaking to myself as well.  I have been guilty of the exact same thing.  All it brought me was grief.  I lean not on my own understanding and rely on relationship.  My relationship with God tells me all I need to know about his nature.

As for your last sentence.  I understand you are hurting.  I get it.  But, to take what one group of people think about the nature of God (eternal torturists) and use that to judge God and punish yourself is short sighted at best.  How's it working for you?

Quote from: LS on July 28, 2010, 05:29:35 PM

Quote from: shawn on July 27, 2010, 06:06:35 PM
You make several presumptions when you put God on trial.  First, you assume we didn't have a choice about our earthly birth.  I see no Bible verse that states our earthly birth was the event that brought our soul into existence.  What if we did choose to be placed on earth?  You also assume that suffering has no good or perfect value.  I would beg to differ.  My greatest spiritual insights and awakenings came from pain.  I believe the sufferings of an earthly life are there to reveal the nature of God and to advance us towards spiritual perfection.  I have no idea how God works out judgement nor do I have to in order to serve him.

It behooves a created creature to submit to the Creator rather than attempt to judge his divine justice.  How can the created ever have significant insight to judge the Creator?  Again, with my very limited insight, refuse to put God on trial.  How can I understand the justice of God?  How can a creature living in a 4D universe ever understand that which resides and governs a 10D+ universe?  It's presumptuous to think otherwise.

Hi Shawn - I just want you to know that your post was a real blessing to me - thank you  :cloud9:

Thank you LS.  Sometimes I feel like I'm just talking to myself here.   :grin:

willieH: Hi T-tank... :hithere:

I will answer this in 2 parts as it would be far too long in one answer! :omg:

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AM
Hello willie, thank you for replying to my post in a gentle manner.

You're welcome...  :cloud9:

Quote from: T-tankQuote from: thinktank on Today at 11:34:17 AM
We are individuals and God has given us choice to do whatever we want. I don't believe God is similar to those old fashioned Greek type Gods who control our future

willieH: Really?  Why not?  Because HE being IN CONTROL, displaces YOU?

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMNo because I belive that love is about service and gives, these old fashioned type of gods, just did things almost like scientists where life is just a game. But I believe that God is similar to an earthly parents who does not use a remote control to control the kids but rather steer them in the right direction with first a nourishing environment [baby] =(garden of eden) then into [toddler] (This is what you cannot don't touch that socket] kiddo (Let them on the bike and fall off)= The fall, [ Teenager] 10 commandments [house rules] Young adult {Jesus demonstrates his love] Adult [ Choose this day whom you will serve good or evil]

FIRST -- Nothing that GOD "does" is BEYOND remaining within His CONTROL... including ALL that occurs within His Creation.   It is NOT a "game" for HIM to be IN CONTROL of His creation, and the WORD does not propose this, YOU DO, apart from what is STATED in His WORD...

I "believe" what is stated in His WORD -- which plainly notes the following Scriptures which SPECIFY that He is IN CONTROL of ALL that MAN DOES -- Prov 20:28 -- Jer 10:23 -- Rom 9:16 -- Eph 1:11 -- Eph 2:10 -- Rom 9:11 -- Please note Scripture that supports YOUR "BELIEF", that disengages these from the CONTROL stated WITHIN THEM...

If you "believe" that YOU decide the course of your life, by YOUR "choosings", then GOD is NOT (as is stated in the above Scriptures) "IN CONTROL" of your pathway, YOU ARE...

SECOND --- This is fine except for one thing... Your "choice" has already been NOTED by HIM according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of your life... and your life cannot proceed even in ONE IOTA, otherwise.  :dontknow:


willieH:  Who is it really, which "sits in the temple" deciding he/she is "GOD" -- 2 Thess 2:4 -- T-tank?   Is it not YOU?  Is it not ME?

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMYes we are as gods knowing good and evil. Choose this day whom you will serve God or mammon.

Spinning wheels... this "CHOICE" was already decided by YHVH that it would be "made by you" before you "made it". :nod:

willieH:  Is there some "red guy with a pitchfork" inside YOU, deciding what YOU shall do?  Or is it YOU?  I can't and won't speak for you, but I know that of myself, I can DO NOTHING concerning GOD, for I am not greater than was my Savior -- John 5:19

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMThe devil is in the details but so is God. God ultimately is the source of all things so whether I do evil or good God gave me that ability of life. But to do good is a hard thing who can bear it, but Christ empowers us to do good.

The "devil" is the principality of ADVERSITY which is created by GOD... for ALL things which are MADE, are made by Him -- John 1:3 -- If adversity exists, then it came forth from the creator.  That you "choose" adversity in the course of your life, is already FOREORDAINED by the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS -- Isaiah 46:10

willieH:  It is WE which must DIE to OURSELVES -- 1 Cor 15:31 -- Rom 12:1-2 -- that GOD might LIVE in us -- Gal 2:20 -- we DESTROY adversity, by eliminating OURSELVES from the decision making "choosings"... in favor of HIM and HIS "CHOOSINGS"

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMHe said crucify yourself daily

It's not a once done deal, we must continually resist the carnality of the flesh that desires to lust and pride. Therefore even as Christians we choose between Gods way and ours. To add a little extra dimension to this, even if one crucifies oneself we are still in the drivers seat, God is the codriver, who directs our path. If God is doing the driving once we become a Christian, then by now the world would be Christ like.  God seldom gives precise directions, he gives encouragment and so forth but many things such as choosing where to work is something we must use wisdom for.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

FIRST --- God is hardly a "co-driver"...  If He is indeed DIRECTING the PATH taken, then HE is the DRIVER...  You scratch & claw for a degree of control, only to stumble over your own words in doing so.   REASON --->  If there are 2 passengers in a CAR and ONE is directing the PATH of the car... then HE indeed is the DRIVER, the other is just a passenger. 

SECOND --- Again, ALL is FOREORDAINED to be manifest as it actually occurs, irregardless of the designations of Good or Evil.   Those who "choose" to walk the pathway of "crucifixtion", were before ORDAINED to do so -- Eph 2:10 -- those who do NOT walk the pathway of "crucifixtion"... the reverse is also true... they were NOT FOREORDAINED to do so... so they DO NOT.  It ain't that hard T-tank...  :winkgrin: -- No "driver" + "co-driver"... Try using REASON within your conclusions T-tank...

willieH:  What a very HEARTY EXAGGERATION!  Where in the Scriptures is this noted, T-tank?  Where does it say that GOD told man to "do whatever you want"?

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMOk let me be more precise, God gives the rules e.g 10 commandments and we make choices within the limits that God has given mankind.

Well... now you are starting to get it...  :happyclap:  The "rules" of GOD are the same EVERYWHERE, EVERYWHEN. 

God did not make a set of "rules" for this realm that differs from that which is LIVED in the Heavenly realm.  :dontknow:

willieH:   What you (as do most) fail to consider is that the KNOWLEDGE of this "murder" was already KNOWN prior to its actual physical manifestation.    And if indeed it was PERFECTLY KNOWN before it occured, it (as manifest) could not have been avoided, otherwise the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE which already "KNEW" of it, would be concluded as  IMPERFECT.  (like many "predict" the outcome of a horse race or football season).

Conclusively, the PRIOR KNOWLEDGE of it (the murder), being PERFECT (which means COMPLETE), means that this deed could not be AVOIDED within physical manifestation, otherwise the event, in being "avoided" shows the KNOWLEDGE of IT to be INCOMPLETE and IMPERFECT!

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMYes and God allowed it to happen despite prior knowledge, notice that he allowed the very thing {Thou shall not murder] that Gods will is against.

Sorry, but this is amiss... The "God allows this or that" doctrine, is totally UNSCRIPTURAL... that which OCCURS is ORDAINED to occur.  The reason GOD stands inert as EVIL is manifest, is because He INTENDS that it manifest, for it IS HALF of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and EVIL.

There is no Scripture which notes that GOD "allows" sin to take place.  SIN was invented by GOD, as that which is ADVERSE to His COMMAND and LAW.

He WORKS ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- so if a "murder" took place, then the "murder" was within the agenda of things NOT YET DONE, which GOD DECLARED, that the "murder" occur.  As GOD reveals through His Children within the progression of their interacting lives, ...the PERFECT (as known by HIM) -- KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL --

You have a limited observation of that which is taking place, T-tank... which is largely due to the focus you maintain upon yourSELF.

Gen 3:22 -- This Scripture is noted of MAN... not just the 2 "in the Garden" wearing "fig leaves", but MAN which is encompassed IN ADAM -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- The PERFECT [COMPLETE] knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, was not found in the eating of one piece of fruit... rather is found in the TOTALITY of MAN which SINS from the BEGINNING unto the END...  Once SIN is ENDED, then the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is revealed as KNOWN by GOD, which was DECLARED by Him BEFORE its "process" of REVELATION, ...began... declared from the END, to the BEGINNING... the ENTIRETY of MAN must be considered, before the ENTIRETY of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, can be KNOWN.

Which BEGAN @ the BEGINNING... and continues until it is COMPLETE... arriving at the END...  :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMwhich supports my post of cain having the choice to make that choice, why didn't cain just thief a sheep from Abel if he was inclined towards evil, but instead chooses to slew him out of his jealousy. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts and malice said Jesus.

FIRST --- Cain did as he was ORDAINED to do, according to (1) God working all things -- Eph 1:11 -- (2) the Declaration made of all things -- Isaiah 46:10 --  that are contained IN the WORD of YHVH, one of which was the "murder" of Abel by Cain, which was FOREORDAINED and DECLARED to be, before it actually was manifest.

SECOND --  The "jealousy" was a product of Cain, which was NOT FOREORDAINED to walk the pathway of Righteousness -- Eph 2:10 -- it aint that hard bro...  :winkgrin:

willieH:   As long as you remain in the "box" T-tank, which esteems itself as having the "truth", you shall learn no more, and continue to ignore.  However, if you might step OUT of your box... you have much to see which shall be availed to you through the eyes of REASON...

I won't say you are wrong, just that you are veiled... not having taken into consideration that this realm was PERFECTLY outlined before even 1 second of it took place.  God, in -- Isaiah 46:10 -- notes that He DECLARED (using His WORD), the End from the Beginning... the THINGS NOT ...YET ...DONE...

How many "things" do you think that might be, T-tank?  Please use REASON in your answer (that is, if you do answer instead of IGNORE)...  If NOTHING had taken place... how many THINGS had YET TO BE DONE?

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMI am addressing situations that happen in this age, such as shadow who is not happy, NOW currently- and how to deal with the miserable conditions here upon Earth as they stand, therefore seeing things inside a box is inevitable. In fact as I tend to think outside of the box here is a quote for ya.

"All people think inside a box, either the box expands or it contracts for only God is unlimited"
ThinkTank

Maybe in generations to come they'll be quoting thinktank :)

Although used jokingly, ...your own words indicate the vanity of SELF... which FAILED to respond to the question asked of you... (as I noted you would "create evasions" instead of answer, and so you have done...  :sigh:)

I'll repeat it forya:

Isaiah 46:10 -- notes that He DECLARED (using His WORD), the End from the Beginning... the THINGS NOT ...YET ...DONE...

How many "things" do you think that might be, T-tank?  Please use REASON in your answer (that is, if you do answer instead of IGNORE)...  If NOTHING had taken place... how many THINGS had YET TO BE DONE?


willieH:  Your "choosing" is confined in the very same way, you just have not considered that your "choosing" is confined.  Something CONFINED is not FREE, nor is it UNLIMITED.

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMYou seemed to have missed this part in bold

We make the choices, within this age and even though those choices are sometimes limited

What a lot of hooey brother.  You are stating UNSCRIPTURAL beliefs, and failing to support them as you go.  There is no Scripture that notes this statement you just made: "We make the choices, within this age and even though those choices are sometimes limited"... :mnah:  Which avoids instead of answers.  You began by spouting that you are able to -- "do what you want" -- now you resort to noting that there are LIMITATIONS to that "doing"... :rolleye:

willieH:  If my dog needs to "pee"... she has the "choice" to pee In the house or Outside the house...  she has no other options, say In the walls or On the roof, or In the car, or On the top of the fence...  even though these are existent options, they are not AVAILABLE to her...

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMShe's not allowed to pee on the wall, cruel man, call animal rescue quick.;) Nah im sure you take good care of her. :winkgrin:

More of your "created" evasiveness... dodging the questions proposed to you... with the attempt to be humorous... 

PURPOSELY failing to address that which confounds your inept and UNSCRIPTURAL proposals...  :sigh:

The point being that your "choosing" is LIMITED to options provided, which options have been PREDEFINED as good or evil... and have also been PREDECLARED as to the choice that would be made in every instance...

I'll stop here and continue in the next post...

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :happygrin:

Continuing...

willieH:   I challenge you to name even ONE THING that is subject to your power of "choosing" which is UNINHIBITED by any CONFINING and/or LIMITING parameters... Just one...  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMOk that one thing I can do hmmm, got it, I'll give ya a clue, it's part of my screen name;)

Do I get a $5000 prize?

As I said... you would CREATE EVASIVENESS, and you only display the insight I already have of you...

Quite beating around the bush, with your vague him-haw T-tank, and NAME one thing, ...if you can.  :dontknow:

willieH:   Hmmm, can you EAT your car?  Or can you EAT your house?  How about EATING your favorite football team?  Or maybe EATING the street in front of your house? How about EATING the MOON, can you do that? Or EAT Mount Everest?  laughhand

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMI think many women comment that they would eat David Beckam. Hansel and Gretel also eat a house made of candy. As for mount everest, if ye have faith the size of a mustard seed ye shall say unto that mountain, be thou changed into Mcdonalds and it shall be given unto you.
:icon_joker:

Not much of an answer... mostly "created" sarcastic evasions which, as I noted previously that you would do... instead of answer directly.

willieH:   What cop-out is this...   :Whistle:

You had no CHOICE in being born, but you have (are FORCED) to live with it?  That sounds like your entire LIFE began by the insertion of you into a scenario in which your CHOOSING shall be LIMITED throughout that LIFE, but you had NO CHOICE as to entering this scenario of LIMITED, predecided choosing!

The labeling or categorizing of the LIMITED "choices" which were eventually made AVAILABLE to you, was also done WITHOUT your consent (whether they would be considered evil or good)... EVIL choices were declared EVIL before YOU had a chance to consider them... as well as GOOD, so your "choosing" was further inhibited and done aside from, you and your power to "choose" from them

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMThat's what I'm saying, but people throughout history continually look at what they CANNOT do instead of enjoying and appreciating what they CAN do and everything we can do has been given to us by God, but by our disobedience and rebellion we go against that which is good and do that which is evil.

The argument that we are slaves to sin is no longer valid in todays world, for God said, we are either slaves to sin or to righteousness.

FIRST --- You continue to evade instead of answer... No man CAN COME to CHRIST, except he/she is DRAGGED unto Him -- John 6:44 -- and even then only via the REVELATION decided by the WORD, shall he/she come to be revealed -- Matt 11:27 --

It is evidenced in Scripture that MANY "believers" shall preach of CHRIST and DECIEVE MANY -- Matt 24:5 -- and that these MANY shall present their "works" before Him, and propose their worthiness (just as did Cain)... and those "wonderful works" shall be named INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23

SECOND --- We follow the pathway that GOD designates we walk -- Jer 10:23 -- Eph 2:10 -- Rom 9:16 -- that we "enjoy" it or not, is not the POINT of this realm...

The POINT of this realm is the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, as KNOWN in the HEART and WORD of YHVH God... revealed via the interactions of His CHILDREN with BOTH.

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMGod came to Empower us to do that which we could not do before the death of Christ. Doing good is much harder than evil, but God never said it would be easy, in fact he continually said its a tough road, the road is narrow that leads to life. But the thing is, imagine how much better life would be if people stopped being so selfish and instead did that which is good.

Nice sounding philosphy, but all this is, ...is an assertion of YOURS which is incomplete of insight... DAVID did Good, MOSES did Good, ENOCH did Good, ELIJAH did Good, DANIEL did Good... all before the manifestation of CHRIST in this realm.

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMThe more people that do good, the easier it is for everyone else to do good also, it has a knock on effect, and this is one thing that Jesus has accomplished, but even now the amount of good that Christians do in the world is pretty poor and the world should be a better place to live in, but many Christians still do that which is evil, try and explain that?

Whether "Christian" or not...

They are doing as was DECLARED by YHVH, that they would "do"... Those who follow the pathway of destruction, regardless of RELIGION... are doing so, because they are not CHOSEN to walk the pathway of LIFE -- Eph 2:10

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMLook at towns that have a unselfish attitude, their community service and kindness to their neigbours makes living a delight, because they all practice it, but try being the light in a community of darkness and it'll be hell, it takes great courage and the dark forces there will not enjoy your presence.

Don't know your experience bro... but I was raised in East L.A., and I am very experienced in LIVING in an ADVERSE environment!  Also, I do not just post here in the UR friendly confines of Tentmaker... I have spent many days preaching UR in the hostile environments of ET and Annhilation forums... as well as actively doing so amongst the Churches with which I was once affiliated (Salvation Army/ET and SDA/Annhilation)...

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMIts Gods will that all be saved, even now

Now is come salvation

It is GOD's INTENT that ALL be saved, T-tank -- 1 Pet 3:9 -- so they WILL be SAVED!

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMIt's Gods will all be healed, but the church is too weak to perform healing miracles, where are the churches that heal the sick? More interested in religion and apearing holy than ministering to the outcasts and excercising the power of Jesus, didn't the apostle Paul say that in the last days, they would have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.

Oh yes, he did... But the HEALING that you seek is NOT of the FLESH...  Paul also said that we are to KNOW NO MAN AFTER THE FLESH -- 2 Cor 5:16 -- so if you seek that HEALING appear of the FLESH... then your focus is NOT upon the SPIRIT.  The GREATER Healing is found in the SPIRIT, which is where all other things EMMANATE.

The FLESH is just a reflection (mirage of sorts)... The SPIRIT is REALITY.

willieH:   (1) the ERA in which you were born, inhibits your choosing -- a person born in 500 A.D. could not "choose" to take the subway to work, or read a Stephen King novel...

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMNay, but they can choose to jump on a horse or to take a mule such as Jesus did. They can listen to bible stories or listen to the great exploits of Ceasar.

They are STILL confined... which is my point -- you CANNOT just "do anything you want".

willieH:  (2) the parents you were born to LIMITS your choosing -- a person born to a homeless parent, can't just "choose" to buy a new Porche, or take a European vacation in Rome...

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMNo, but they can determine in their heart that they will not make the same mistakes as their parents, the poor of this world tend to have poor attitudes, weak attitudes, but some of the poor develop a good attitude rags to riches stories are not just fantasy but for real, check them out. The reasons why the poor are poor are as numerous as books, obviosly some are victims, but many are victims of their own dissmal attitude. What ye reap ya sow.

Don't know how "old" you are T-tank... but you appear to speak with the voice of "LIFE INEXPERIENCE"...  We might not make the SAME mistakes as did our parents... we shall make WORSE ones...  Which is WHY the world is DEGENERATING... If we indeed learned by watching the mistakes of our parents, and implemented a mistake-free program... then the world would NOT DEGENERATE, it would move in the opposite direction.

You evade the wisdom of the Scriptures which note that some afflictions are for the GLORY of GOD and this continues to this day.   For in the deliverance of ALL (to include such as HITLER) which contain the HEINOUSNESS of mankind, is GOD GLORIFIED... just as he was here:  John 9:1-3  

JESUS noted that His followers would do greater things... so the examples of His ministry would be availed in His [CHOSEN] followers as well... You do not follow, because YOU have decided to... you nor I, follow the pathway of TRUTH only... ONLY, ...if either has been CHOSEN to do so -- John 15:16

willieH:  (3) the gender you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a female cannot "choose" to be a father

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMThese days I'm not so sure :laughing7:

:sigh:

willieH:   (4) the city you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a person born in Central Kansas, cannot "choose" to go the beach...

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMWanna bet!

OCEAN beach... (sorry for not being specific)... but you are really struggling to hold your position aren't you...  :laughhand:

willieH:   (5) the person striken with cancer, cannot just "choose" to be healthy...

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMNo but they can determine in their heart that health is what God provided for them and paid with stripes for. Any sick among you, call the elders and they shall pray and they shall recover. Miracle stories again are for real, check them out.

I am battling this disease T-tank... don't think more of your position than you should.  :thumbdown:  Get your eyes off the FLESH... and you shall see in the SPIRIT more clearly.

willieH:   (6) the person amidst a famine, cannot just "choose" to not be hungry...

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMThe man in India might disagree, he has lived for 70 years without food!

:Yeahright: ...the noose is tightening around your traditions...

willieH:   (7) the person born Chinese, cannot just "choose" to be a Caucasion...

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMNo but they can enjoy their ethnicity and make the most of their culture and the enjoyments that they have or they can live life in jealousy of their caucasion cousins

Evasiveness is your only reply...  :sigh:

Why not address the point, T-tank?  Your "choosings" are LIMITED to options provided by GOD...

willieH:  (8) the person born with no arms cannot "choose" to play the piano...

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMI saw a woman with no arms, who looked after her baby by herself and changed nappies with her feet!

More of the same nonsense... :pitiful:  Failing to address, ...obstinate, ...clinging to the mirage of your supposed "control" (via "choosings") which is non-existent.

willieH:   (9) the wealthiest person in the world cannot by their "choice", ...make another to love them...

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMBut how much many people would love them if they gave of their riches to them in their despair, would the starving person appreciate/love the kind person who would give of their substance to feed them, of course they would. But by their "choice" some do not give and so how can they be loved?
Bill gates for example is a very wealthy man who is loved by many, including me, who has gave billions of his wealth to charities.

How difficult it shall be for the RICH MAN to enter into LIFE... If you know anything about the RICH, you shall know that the MORE they get, the GREEDIER they get.

Bill Gates and his life are not my concern, neither shall he recieve praise, or judgment from me of his doings...  Do you know if he is giving of that which actually INFRINGES upon him?  Or because he is a multibillionaire, that exceeds comprehension... that he is giving of his excess?  I do not know, do you?  I believe your observation of this man (or any other), is gained of hearsay, or via surface observation.  :dontknow:

TRUE giving is that which COSTS the giver... relieving him/her of their possessions, time, even of LIFE, for there is NO GREATER LOVE than giving your LIFE for another.  A billionaire that gives a few million, is not impinging himself financially... no more than a man with 20K in the bank, puts $20 in the offering plate.  If this man puts $10K in the offering plate... THEN you're talking!  :blahgreen:

willieH:   The "rules" are the same here as they are in Heaven... We have been PURPOSED to break them in the LIVING DISPLAY [man] of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, as ETERNALLY and UNCHANGINGLY, ...KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH God, which DECLARED ALL THINGS before they occured.

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMI don't think it helps the wicked to know this, for they want an excuse to sin, blaming God for their misfortune or evil, that is something that Job did, but God told him to be quiet and in the end received more than what he had before the destruction. But would God have blessed him if his attitude was continually blaming God?

He was being blessed AS he objected, just as are all men...

We have no right to object to our circumstances -- Rom 9:20 -- Only to appeal to God to lighten the load, and cast with TRUST, that care upon HIM...  :dontknow:

GOD blesses the JUST and the UNJUST, when NEITHER have asked.  Did you thank GOD for digesting your food today?  Or did you thank Him for continuing to breathe?  How about, the country you live in?  Or maybe the legs you walk with?

If you consider yourself of the "just", wherein is your thanks?

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMShould I Infect  this forum with virus and blame God for that? no you people would look at me and say, repent for your evil, for out of the heart proceeds such an evil thought.

If you did... it has already been declared that you would.  We are to become content in all circumstances... giving thanks, even in times of sorrow or difficulty...  :cloud9: (btw it cost me $104 day before yesterday to replace the power supply in my computer... God provided  :Yesss:)

willieH:   Get used to it my new friend, T-tank... this LIFE is NOT about YOU... nor about me... this is about OUR GOD, and HIS wonderful WISDOMS revealed, which include the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.

The sooner that anyone in humility, take ones eyes off ONESELF (and ones "choosings"), the sooner that one shall KNOW GOD, and that ALL is emergent FROM [by] HIM, and FOR HIM (not "for" you or "for" me) -- Col 1:16

Then within the HUMILITY and MAJESTY of the ABANDONMENT of SELF, ...shall one KNOW that YHVH is GOD... and that we are HIS PLEASURE, ...COMPLETELY HIS, ...to do with as He so pleases -- Rom 9:20 [why hast thou MADE ME THUS?] -- Isaiah 46:10 [I WILL DO all MY pleasure --- that being with -- ALL THINGS "not yet done"

Quote from: thinktank on July 28, 2010, 03:21:55 AMGood im glad you call me new friend and God is the source of all life and all that is good, you sayest truly to love God with all your heart strength and soul and to love your neighbour as oneself.

ALL men and women are my brothers and sisters... NONE of them shall be destroyed... only that which is proportionate to EVIL in any of us, shall meet destruction... the brothers and sisters shall ALWAYS be so to me forever.  Including you.  :friendstu:

willieH: ...T-tank...  :sigh:

Bad post.   :upset:

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PM
Me and you are on the same page, (together we can defeat these evil universalists :winkgrin:)

Personally, I resent you, even in gest, ...attaching the word EVIL to "universalists"!  What gives you this right?  Who of the believers in the Salvation of ALL, has attached this word (evil) to YOU?  

You often speak with one foot in your mouth, this is a real good example of it.  :thumbdown:

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMbut here's something I pondered on. Most people or all people do not know Jesus Christ in full and especially evil people.

Define "evil people"?  Is that someone who is ENTIRELY EVIL?  And what BASIS do you use to make such a sorrowful determination?  Yourself?  :mshock:

What were YOU before you became a believer, T-tank?  Maybe an UNBELIEVER?  :dontknow:

Were you therefore, an "EVIL people"?  :dontknow:  Due the DAMNATION of GOD?  :thumbdown:

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMWe only see through the glass darkly and nobody has had a full revelation of the love of Jesus Christ. So how much can love change a person?
I think love can change people greatly, how many people truly love evil more than love?

Hmmm... when the Scripture notes -- John 6:44 -- that NO MAN ...CAN... come to CHRIST (for this "love" to change them), then who is their "evil" state up to?  :dunno:

They cannot of themselves come to the one who can CHANGE them, so how is it their fault, that they are "EVIL"?  What were YOU before you believed, T-tank?  An "EVIL PEOPLE"?  :Whistle:  Was it YOUR FAULT you did not "come" before you did, even though you did not possess the ability to "come"?

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMUnlike [1] Satan who once was part of heaven, [2] people do not know God as much as he did.

The first of several sets of Unscriptural assertions in this post...

Please note where it says in the Scriptures...

(1) that "satan" was once a part of heaven
(2) that "satan" ...knew... God (more than do people)

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMAlso during the 1000 millenium peace,

The second set of your Unscriptural assertions in this post...

(1) where is the term "MILLENNIUM" noted in the Scriptures?
(2) where is the "MILLENIUM PEACE" noted in the Scriptures?

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMI don't belive that Jesus will be accessible to the masses, but only to the saints, for flesh and blood cannot see God, so the only source of truth that people will get from God during the millenium would be from the Jewish nation, Abraham, Issac and Jacob, so even then they don't get a full idea of God.

The third set of your Unscriptural assertions in this post...

(1)  Where is it stated that JESUS (who has no respect of persons) will not be accessable to the masses?  He said:  "I will NEVER leave you or forsake you" -- Heb 13:5 -- the word "NEVER" implies -- NOT at ANY TIME... so if there is NO TIME that JESUS (who NEVER CHANGES) shall be unavailable to men, wherein is truth in your assertion?

(2)  Where is it stated that the JEWISH nation shall be a "source of truth"?
(3)  Where is it stated that this (assertion) will take place in the "MILLENNIUM"? (which terminology, is not mentioned in the Scriptures, rather is an ADDITION to it)

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PM(this is something i'm working on, so don't quote me on this bit above)

If you are not sure of these things, why are you posting them?  :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMThe disciples asked Jesus

Who then can be saved?
With men things are impossible, but with God all things are possible

I think that there proves that God will not force anybody to make him love him,

Of course He shall not FORCE anyone to LOVE Him... once He reveals

(1) who you actually ARE -- to you
(2) Who He is in proximity to WHO you ARE
(3) You agree that WHO you ARE, is not acceptable... no "forcing" was done at all.

There was a time, when YOU did not believe in or "LOVE" God... Did He FORCE you to LOVE Him?  How and WHY, did you come to "LOVE" Him?

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMotherwise he would say "im God fools I can do whatever I want" and I think the idea is absurd. A man doesn't woe a girl by taking her by force but romances her and then she can say yes or no.

God is not a MAN, and is not to be compared to a MAN (per your example of wooing a girl)... His ways and thoughts (such as "wooing girls") are HIGHER than ours... His POWER is HIGHER than ours...  :sigh:

God does not need to take anything by "FORCE"... He reveals WHO and WHAT He ...IS... which is LOVE... and when LOVE is revealed in its power, there is nothing in existence that can, or even desires, to RESIST it.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMThere's nothing glorifying about God forcing people to love him, but it is glory on the other hand for people who willingly worship him because of his absolute brilliance that even the wicked have to take off their hats and say truly truly you are the rightfull God.

Take off their hats?  :laughing7:

You have already been shown that no man "WILLINGLY" comes to GOD... Man is DRAGGED... BY GOD... unto the WORD -- John 6:44 -- and even then... it is according to the DECLARATION of the WORD, as to whether or not the FATHER shall be REVEALED -- Matt 11:27 -- for all who walk the pathway of TRUTH are FOREORDAINED to do so -- Eph 2:10

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMThere are scriptures which do indicate that all will be saved, such as "in Adam all die, but in Christ all shall be made alive"

Emphasis on the word ...IN... in both scenarios... :nod:

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMHoweven i'm not one of those who simply ignores those other scriptures, which point to damnation,

There is no "DAMNATION"... the word translated by RELIGIONISTS as "damnation",  ...is JUDGMENT... look it up... do a bit research before freely spouting fallacies.  

Quote from: thinktank on July 27, 2010, 06:23:35 PMbut in the context that God saves everyone, perhaps those damnation scriptures are stating something, such as punishment for the wicked, even though they might get saved eventually.

Forked tongue wordings which are "all over the place"...  which conveniently  concerning "punishments" and "wickedness", DISINCLUDE YOU of course... :rolleye:

God has no respect of persons (perfectly impartial) -- Acts 10:34 (and 9 others) -- and (eternally and PERFECTLY) LOVES the WORLD -- John 3:16 -- and CASTS OUT FEAR by the investments of LOVE -- 1 John 4:18 -- and KEEPS NO RECORD of SIN -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- Psalm 130:3 -- and He (evidently) did NOT "punish you" when He saved YOU... yet as you spread your vile beliefs, you easily note punishments for others...  :wacko2:

You propose the one who "LOVES the WORLD", as "damning" MOST of it... :rolleye:

When He sent His son NOT to do so -- John 3:17 -- Why would He send His Son to NOT CONDEMN/DAMN... and the Son NEVER ONCE, condemns/damns anyone...  and then turn FACE, and freely "condemn/damn"?

Within the Saviors final words, He says -- "Father FORGIVE THEM for the KNOW NOT what the DO" -- what do you think it is, ...that "they" ..."DO", T-tank?  :dunno:  Are YOU part of this "THEY" He speaks of?  :dunno2:

Yet you would propose (exempting yourSELF of course), that GOD shall "punish" the "wicked" and that they might "eventually" be saved?  

How does that SELF oriented T-shirt fit?  What of YOUR SIN?  What of YOUR WICKEDNESS?  Was it PUNISHED?  If not, WHY?  After all, you were an UNBELIEVER!  YOUR SINS had their part in the DEATH of the Savior!  Whattupwidat?

Oh yeah... you are exempt because you "believe"... and now proudly wear the "T-shirt of CONDEMNATION" which gives you place to condemn others...

By doing and proposing, the CONDEMNATION that JESUS was sent NOT to do, ...and did NOT condemn, nor PROPOSE condemnation...  :sigh:

How do you possibly get the message of PEACE and GOOD NEWS that we are to preach to the WORLD that GOD so LOVES -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- out of such sorrowful and misled information, T-tank?

Paul noted a "THINK" oriented verse that you should consider THINKtank:

Phil 4:8 --- finally brethren, whatsoever things are TRUE, whatsoever things are JUST, whatsoever things are PURE, whatsoever things are LOVELY, whatsoever things are of GOOD REPORT, if there be any VIRTUE and if there be any PRAISE, ...THINK on these things...

IOW ---  What is TRUE is also JUST, is also PURE, is also LOVELY, and is of GOOD REPORT... which also contain VIRTUE and PRAISE...

What GOOD REPORT, VIRTUE, PRAISE, LOVELINESS, PURITY, JUSTICE and TRUTH is contained in CONDEMNATION?

Not much.  :thumbdown:

QuoteWhere did you get the idea that we didn't?  Making presumptions can only lead us to incorrect conclusions...conclusions that can hinder our spiritual growth and joy.  I have no idea if our souls preceded birth but I see nothing Biblically that says they didn't.  It's mere speculation...much like the idea that our soul was created when we entered our mother's womb. There are too many unknowns to take into account to ever put God on trial.  We all start from a place of ignorance then have the audacity to judge God.  Listen, I'm speaking to myself as well.  I have been guilty of the exact same thing.  All it brought me was grief.  I lean not on my own understanding and rely on relationship.  My relationship with God tells me all I need to know about his nature.

But you are just as presumptuous by saying that UR isn't biblical, I know you are trying so hard to find a loophole that deflects the blame solely onto us, you seem to think that it's unfair that God should force people to love him, when he KNEW what the outcome would be, I think it's hypocritical to imply that God can't change a persons heart, yet come up with the idea that we had any choice as to being born

QuoteAs for your last sentence.  I understand you are hurting.  I get it.  But, to take what one group of people think about the nature of God (eternal torturists) and use that to judge God and punish yourself is short sighted at best.  How's it working for you?

I've got to give you credit, at least you have some empathy and understanding which is a quality most christians don't possess at all, to be honest my life is a nightmare but I can't just change my feelings like one turns on and off a tap, you have no idea the last 2 and a half years have been the worst of my entire life, and I've experienced the pain of loneliness, being an outcast, physical and mental abuse etc, I also suffer from GAD and OCD (which is nothing compared to what I feel now), I'm nearly 43 years old and for at least 33 of those years I've wished I'd never been born, that's also a reason I've never had children, I couldn't bear to bring another person into this world that feels the same way I do

FWIW, If I became convinced of an all loving God, I'd embrace him with open arms, but the evidence indicates otherwise, the way I see it is that we have no intrinsic value whatsoever his followers make sure that we get THIS MESSAGE (http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/1037519-how-could-god-sorry-he-made.html), that we are scum worthy of damnation, if that's the way it is I can live with annihilation as an alternative - because at least one day I'll be no more because there will be peace

The thing is there are so many interpretations, How am I supposed to know which one is right :dontknow:

Quote from: Shadow on July 29, 2010, 12:51:48 AM

QuoteWhere did you get the idea that we didn't?  Making presumptions can only lead us to incorrect conclusions...conclusions that can hinder our spiritual growth and joy.  I have no idea if our souls preceded birth but I see nothing Biblically that says they didn't.  It's mere speculation...much like the idea that our soul was created when we entered our mother's womb. There are too many unknowns to take into account to ever put God on trial.  We all start from a place of ignorance then have the audacity to judge God.  Listen, I'm speaking to myself as well.  I have been guilty of the exact same thing.  All it brought me was grief.  I lean not on my own understanding and rely on relationship.  My relationship with God tells me all I need to know about his nature.

But you are just as presumptuous by saying that UR isn't biblical, I know you are trying so hard to find a loophole that deflects the blame solely onto us, you seem to think that it's unfair that God should force people to love him, when he KNEW what the outcome would be, I think it's hypocritical to imply that God can't change a persons heart, yet come up with the idea that we had any choice as to being born

QuoteAs for your last sentence.  I understand you are hurting.  I get it.  But, to take what one group of people think about the nature of God (eternal torturists) and use that to judge God and punish yourself is short sighted at best.  How's it working for you?

I've got to give you credit, at least you have some empathy and understanding which is a quality most christians don't possess at all, to be honest my life is a nightmare but I can't just change my feelings like one turns on and off a tap, you have no idea the last 2 and a half years have been the worst of my entire life, and I've experienced the pain of loneliness, being an outcast, physical and mental abuse etc, I also suffer from GAD and OCD (which is nothing compared to what I feel now), I'm nearly 43 years old and for at least 33 of those years I've wished I'd never been born, that's also a reason I've never had children, I couldn't bear to bring another person into this world that feels the same way I do

FWIW, If I became convinced of an all loving God, I'd embrace him with open arms, but the evidence indicates otherwise, the way I see it is that we have no intrinsic value whatsoever his followers make sure that we get THIS MESSAGE (http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/1037519-how-could-god-sorry-he-made.html), that we are scum worthy of damnation, if that's the way it is I can live with annihilation as an alternative - because at least one day I'll be no more because there will be peace

The thing is there are so many interpretations, How am I supposed to know which one is right :dontknow:

You have the wrong guy.  I don't know how God works out his judgement.  I believe there is stronger Biblical evidence for ED but I admit pure and utter ignorance on the subject.  I have no answers other than I trust God.  There are also alot of opinions on free will that I'm not sure about either.  I see the side of both arguments.  If you think I'm dogmatic about any of this then you have me pegged wrong.  I trust God even though I don't understand. 

As for coming up with the idea that we existed before we were born...well you are not getting what I am saying...not at all.  You have misrepresented my stances.  I was saying that we start from a place of ignorance about all of this including the working of the universe.  It was a point that the Bible is silent on many things including how our souls came about.  From a place of ignorance we choose to judge God?  I believe that to be short sighted at best.  It's certainly stealing joy of relationship from you.  I know it did with me as well.

As for my empathy and understanding that too is a gift of God that came through great pain.  I know mental abuse.  I know GAD and panic disorder personally.  My mother is bipolar and most of my family members are alcoholics.  I have been sober 3 years this August.  I am looking to start a fellowship in addiction medicine shortly because I truly do care about the "least of these".  No, I don't know what you have been through.  I don't doubt you suffer from grave mental/spiritual torture.  And no you can't just turn it off.  The OCD isn't helping that at all.  My heart truly goes out to you.  I wish I had the answers you are looking for but I don't.  I can only tell you what I believe and what I would do if I was in your situation.

Do I believe you need more help than the average joe?  Probably.  Do, I believe you can pray away your anguish?  Possibly but it didn't fully work for me.  Prayer and church are very helpful but for me it wasn't enough.  I will say this though...if you are going through all of this without a drink or a drug you are stronger than I was.  But, if that is an issue for you...start there.  AA was a huge help for me.  It also helped me think outside the box for the first time in my life about God.  If that's not a problem for you...I think you need one on one Christian counseling and some sort of group therapy.  I think you need someone well versed in OCD desensitization, PTSD (which I believe you may suffer from), and spiritual trauma.  You need the diseases controlled before you will be able to think about God clearly.  You will need the trauma addressed before you can have relationship with God in a full way.

Take home message...you can't do this by yourself.  I believe you know that.  That's why you are here.  If you ever need resources please feel free to PM me.  I want to be of help.

I'm not going to argue anymore

I've come to the conclusion that I've never been a true christian ever, I've just had a memory of a few years ago when I attended a church meeting

The person giving the message said - I'm sure most of us know the Lord even although there were only about 6 people present - thereby implying that that was someone there not truly saved

When I looked around the room, I immediately thought that I must be the person who was not saved as I couldn't see anyone else being the person he was referring to

As for christian councillors, been there done that, over 2 years ago, during the councilling session I was told that they spread the gospel because they don't know who God has chosen to save, that was very telling as it told me that they are dishonest in their presentation of the gospel, needless to say, I have not and will not ever set foot in a traditionalist christian church again unless it's a funeral or something

The problem is that if I find out I've been lied to especially about something this important, I find it very hard to believe things blindly

I don't care if you pinch something from me, or if you diddle me out of money, that I can overlook, but for a church to proclaim that God loves everyone (but in reality they don't believe it) shows a total lack of morality/dishonesty and shows that they are nothing more than opportunistic liars whose only interest is in the amount of money that will line the collection place, because if they had the guts to preach what they truly believed then their churches would be emptier faster than you can say Jack Robinson

What Willie H posted makes sense, it's obviously not my time yet, I don't think it's fair to blame me for something I have no control over, I tried to be a christian, I wanted to be a christian, but it won't happen until God lets it happen

That doesn't mean I have the license to live an immoral lifestyle and just do whatever I please, unlike what many tradtionalist christians claim, morality isn't just limited the christianity itself

Don't force anything Shadow. Usually that has no or adverse effects.
You made it from ET to ED; that's a bigger step than most can make. Now just stay away from the ET forums and just hang around here. If only for a bit of reading and/or a little post now and then in the humor section. Just be like your avatar. Just relax and observe  :icon_jokercolor:

One question for Shadow. A month ago you returned after a long absence with post about a book you enjoyed.
You no longer believe in the book?

Quote from: Shadow on July 29, 2010, 09:02:32 PMI tried to be a christian, I wanted to be a christian, but it won't happen until God lets it happen

Well.... I think there are very few true Christians. Most/all have flaws.
If I had to summarize Christianity in two lines I would say:
a] Believe in Father and Son.
b] Love is the greatest commandment of all.

You seem to be a bit weak on point a. Or at leasr lost trust in Them.
Others would you call Christians are stronger on point a.

But if I read a typical ET post I fear they may be strong on "point a" (OR scared into a)
But usually weak on point b. They mostly pretent to love. At least that's my impression.

From your previous posts I remember that part of you religious crisis is because you can't accept certain people will be tortured forever.
I think that strongly points towards "point b"
From where I stand you you are more Christian than many that feel  exalted because they are privileged to watch the torture.
Prove an Approve (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8055.0)

Quote from: Shadow on July 29, 2010, 09:02:32 PM
I'm not going to argue anymore

I've come to the conclusion that I've never been a true christian ever, I've just had a memory of a few years ago when I attended a church meeting

The person giving the message said - I'm sure most of us know the Lord even although there were only about 6 people present - thereby implying that that was someone there not truly saved

When I looked around the room, I immediately thought that I must be the person who was not saved as I couldn't see anyone else being the person he was referring to

As for christian councillors, been there done that, over 2 years ago, during the councilling session I was told that they spread the gospel because they don't know who God has chosen to save, that was very telling as it told me that they are dishonest in their presentation of the gospel, needless to say, I have not and will not ever set foot in a traditionalist christian church again unless it's a funeral or something

The problem is that if I find out I've been lied to especially about something this important, I find it very hard to believe things blindly

I don't care if you pinch something from me, or if you diddle me out of money, that I can overlook, but for a church to proclaim that God loves everyone (but in reality they don't believe it) shows a total lack of morality/dishonesty and shows that they are nothing more than opportunistic liars whose only interest is in the amount of money that will line the collection place, because if they had the guts to preach what they truly believed then their churches would be emptier faster than you can say Jack Robinson

What Willie H posted makes sense, it's obviously not my time yet, I don't think it's fair to blame me for something I have no control over, I tried to be a christian, I wanted to be a christian, but it won't happen until God lets it happen

That doesn't mean I have the license to live an immoral lifestyle and just do whatever I please, unlike what many tradtionalist christians claim, morality isn't just limited the christianity itself

So, basically you feel betrayed.  I doubt anyone here will argue with that.  I would imagine many of us here feel betrayed.  Do they understand how much mental torture they put people through with their interpretation of scripture?  It's bothered me deeply since I was very young.

With that said, when has the religious majority ever been right?  Man can twist anything of God into self serving purposes.  But, I realize it doesn't make God any less God.  I am growing more and more comfortable being in the religious minority with my views on scripture.

 :cloud9: Amen Shawn....FEW there be that find it. If something is mainstream, I've found it's just about a given, that it's been distorted and corrupted by the carnal minds of men. Blessings...