Annihilationism verses UR.

[jabcat]

Quote from Molly;

Quote from: LS
Strong's: IfG1489 ye continueG1961 ... andG2532 be notG3361 moved ...
G1489


Isn't the same thought contained in this?


Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. End quote

What if we take into consideration again who Jesus was primarily talking to, the end of what, saved from what and in what manner within those particular contexts?  Would that make a difference, or is it clearly apparent and indisputable (I'm not sure) that He was talking about THE "end" and THE salvation?  Maybe it is, I certainly don't have it all figured out.  I do believe His earthly ministry had a LOT to do with the transition of the age of Law to the age of grace/the church - the "end" of the temple worship, the beginning of the next age following the cross and His resurrection - and how the religious of that age would be affected (I came only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel, He spoke only to them [all except His disciples?] in parables, etc.).  I believe His earthly ministry was mainly about the end of that age, then when He died and rose again, we began to be included.   :2c:

Further, adding in addressing Shawn's latest posts, and reiterating a bit from posts made earlier to LS - If we believe it's up to us to somehow be good enough, strong enough, righteous enough etc. to "stay saved", then I believe we a) discount a lot of scriptures that say HE's the Author and Finisher of our faith, that when He saves us He seals us with His Spirit, etc. and b) where does that put the work of the cross?  Do I get saved through grace but then stay saved through my own perseverance/endurance/works of righteousness?  Paul said if I try to do that then I've "fallen from grace" - because it's by faith (and that not of myself) not works that I'm saved.  So maybe some of those verses are talking about other things that have to be rightly divided.  

Putting forth some more things to think about.  Again, I believe many punishment verses have to do with either earthly, temporal consequences and corrections, as well as in the "eternal" realm they have to do with correction, loss of rewards, loss of privilege/position of service, etc., not ALL of them strictly having to do with "am I saved and a child of God, or lost and not a child of God".  

Is our salvation so tenuous that it can be given, snatched away, given back, snatched away again daily, totally dependent upon our own capabilities?  I personally don't think so.  I don't believe a child of God, spiritually new-born from above, washed in the blood of the Lamb - though not perfect and still learning daily - will joyously and habitually live the life of the devil and not be pulled along by the Lord, convicted, renewed and restored by the Spirit of God, as He brings us into maturity (perfection) as His blood-bought sons.  That's what occurs.  But it's the work of God's Spirit in us, part of the process of being a a son and saved, not our own efforts.  Does He bring us to and teach us how to yield, surrender, walk in obedience?  I believe so.  But again, I believe that's HIS works within us.  I've tried it, and I've also watched many attempt to be good enough to stay saved.  I don't believe it works.  I've been, and have seen, many a ship wreck by trying it in our own strength.  It's only by grace and faith given by the Lord.  So putting it all together, I don't believe many of those verses we use to talk about "staying saved" really are talking about THE salvation...I believe they are talking about other things, and that we often mix it up and miss the context and primary audiance, setting, and meaning(s).  But I also agree, it can be a real challenge to rightly divide the Word of Truth in many of those areas, and i certainly miss it myself.  

In the end, it's about HIM, us looking to Him the Author and Finisher, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last - the Lamb that was worthy and slain, who predestined us from the foundation of the world - not about ME, or how much I'm able to please Him or do for Him - or not.  It's why HE is worthy of all glory and honor praise.

May we give it to Him.  

That's my understanding.

Lord, help this not be a stumbling block or give an appearance that we as believers have a license to willfully sin.  That folks will understand I'm talking about living a holy, consecrated life, set apart for you.  But that it only comes through Your strength,, mercy, grace and empowerment, and that without You we can do nothing.  In Jesus' name... 

[Molly]

What if we take into consideration again who Jesus was primarily talking to, the end of what, saved from what and in what manner within those particular contexts?  Would that make a difference..

Well, that's the thing.  We've had this discussion before--what does it mean to be saved?  He saves me every day of the week--I can't imagine how anyone lives a day without him. 

But, even so, we are always being encouraged--stay strong, take heart, have courage, hold fast--because we need to be encouraged constantly.
We need to stay strong, take heart, have courage, and hold fast.  But, we are not fighting this battle alone.


Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,..

[jabcat]

Yes, I've been thinking about this some more.  We are encouraged to do those things, yet I think there's almost a sort of (for lack of a better word) "dilemma" there.  Because I don't think I can do those things, including taking the "endure to the end" statement at its face value of "hanging in there til it's over" - whenever the end is that it's talking about, whether it's the end of the age, the end of my life, or the "end of time" - without His doing it through me.  I don't believe I have any goodness, power, ability of my own.  That I can only do it by Him working through me, as I "look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my faith".  And I really think that's what you're saying too, by "He saves me every day".  Maybe there's a bit of a mystery there...sort of as Paul said, "I, yet not I".   :bigGrin:

God bless.

[Molly]

Yes, a mystery!

Thou art a little pebble and on this boulder I will build my church.

[shawn]

Further, adding in addressing Shawn's latest posts, and reiterating a bit from posts made earlier to LS - If we believe it's up to us to somehow be good enough, strong enough, righteous enough etc. to "stay saved", then I believe we a) discount a lot of scriptures that say HE's the Author and Finisher of our faith, that when He saves us He seals us with His Spirit, etc. and b) where does that put the work of the cross?  Do I get saved through grace but then stay saved through my own perseverance/endurance/works of righteousness?  Paul said if I try to do that then I've "fallen from grace" - because it's by faith (and that not of myself) not works that I'm saved.  So maybe some of those verses are talking about other things that have to be rightly divided

This is kind of how I'm taking this section.  Unless we can indeed lose our salvation then there has to be more to the verses.  And the only thing I can think of is how rewards are handed out in heaven.

[Beloved Servant]

www.godfire.net/Waitingidx.html

[LS]

The reconciliation of the cross is one way--God has reconciled man to himself.  But, man must still reconcile himself to God.  It's a two way street.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Bingo ... excellent post Molly.  And this is how I would reply to jabcat's question to me; it's not a complete reply, but it's something I'm still trying to study and to seek Truth on.




[/quote]

[LS]

Yes, I've been thinking about this some more.  We are encouraged to do those things, yet I think there's almost a sort of (for lack of a better word) "dilemma" there.  Because I don't think I can do those things, including taking the "endure to the end" statement at its face value of "hanging in there til it's over" - whenever the end is that it's talking about, whether it's the end of the age, the end of my life, or the "end of time" - without His doing it through me.  I don't believe I have any goodness, power, ability of my own.  That I can only do it by Him working through me, as I "look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my faith".  And I really think that's what you're saying too, by "He saves me every day".  Maybe there's a bit of a mystery there...sort of as Paul said, "I, yet not I".   :bigGrin:

God bless.

That is a great post- thank you.

I don't remember the original source for this, but I liked it enough to copy the quote. (I think it may be quoting R.C. Sproul, but I don't remember for sure).  It fits with what you are saying, and I thought you might like it too:

God of Christianity, of the universe, of the Bible, is an infinite, personal being. To use Francis Schaeffer's language, He is a transcendent, imminent God. And because of that, apparently the divine sovereignty and human responsibility tension is a reflection of the fact that God is infinite and personal.

In that He is infinite, He is absolutely in charge.  In that He is personal and He made human beings accountable to Himself, there is genuine human responsibility.

Thus, the tension between divine sovereignty and human responsibility seem to reflect a mystery within the person of God Himself and in His dealings with the world.

[Molly]

Thus, the tension between divine sovereignty and human responsibility seem to reflect a mystery within the person of God Himself and in His dealings with the world.

Yes, and it reflects the mystery of us to ourselves, also.  Who am I?  Who are we?

We see ourselves as one looking into a darkened mirror.  We don't necessarily know who we are, but He does, and always has.


12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

--1 Cor 13

[shawn]

www.godfire.net/Waitingidx.html

I'm not sure what that link has to do with this discussion but wow what a resource.  My wife and I have discussed this section for the last hour...

When forming a three strand cord that is not quickly broken, there is more to it than what may meet the eye. The first step is to select the same kind and quality of fiber. If different fibers are used, the rope will not have the necessary strength and uniform elasticity to do the job it is designed for -- and it is the same with the spiritual cord of marriage. The man can be born from above and be of identical Spirit as that of the Lord. He may know all there is to know about his heavenly calling, and the revelations he possesses may astound the learned scholars; but if he marries a woman of a different fiber, or she does not share the same vision -- their three fold cold may quickly be broken when the inevitable pressures of life come. It doesn't matter how much they may love one another, the reality is, that rope will snap when it begins to pull the heavy load of life.

[shawn]

Yes, I've been thinking about this some more.  We are encouraged to do those things, yet I think there's almost a sort of (for lack of a better word) "dilemma" there.  Because I don't think I can do those things, including taking the "endure to the end" statement at its face value of "hanging in there til it's over" - whenever the end is that it's talking about, whether it's the end of the age, the end of my life, or the "end of time" - without His doing it through me.  I don't believe I have any goodness, power, ability of my own.  That I can only do it by Him working through me, as I "look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my faith".  And I really think that's what you're saying too, by "He saves me every day".  Maybe there's a bit of a mystery there...sort of as Paul said, "I, yet not I".   :bigGrin:

God bless.

Terrific post...and I couldn't agree more.

[Beloved Servant]

shawn, continue reading for its spiritual application.

[shawn]

shawn, continue reading for its spiritual application.

Keep those types of links coming.  I was floored by the depth of truth.

[jabcat]

The reconciliation of the cross is one way--God has reconciled man to himself.  But, man must still reconcile himself to God.  It's a two way street.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Bingo ... excellent post Molly.  And this is how I would reply to jabcat's question to me; it's not a complete reply, but it's something I'm still trying to study and to seek Truth on.

[/quote]

Can "WE" really do this, or again, is it speaking of a "mystery" - in that we can only do that when we're drawn by His spirit, empowered by Him to do so, and "ensured to endure" by the Beginner and Completer of our faith Who saves us by grace through the faith that HE gives us?

Did Paul reconcile himself to God, or did he only do it as God carried out His predestination of him to make him His son?  I believe the latter.  I don't believe we CAN reconcile ourselves to God whithout all the above occurring.  Otherwise, we're saving ourselves, and I don't believe we have within us the power to do that - hence the cross, grace, and mercy.  Again, the "I, yet not I".   :2c:

[WhiteWings]

That's hard for me to get around as well.  I wish for UR but lean towards ED mainly because of the vast number of scriptures talking about the destruction of the wicked.  It certainly could figurative...and a purificiation process but I don't see a significant scriptural support for it.  If there is a purification process...it's not announced with trumpets in the Bible.  I will say this though...I think God does hide some of his intent.  I think God will reward the few that are diligent to seek it out.  If the UR guys are a group that uncovered God's great plan of salvation hidden under years of man made dogma...wow.

Rediscovered would be more correct I think. There are many quotes etc from early church fathers that are very URish.

About ED. I agree with you ED is much more likely that ET. But where exactly does it really teach ED? I'm sure you will be able to show some verses. But I'm equally sure others will refute them.
I just have one simple question for you. What does the parable of the lost sheep means to you? Can in be aligned with ED?

[Molly]

The reconciliation of the cross is one way--God has reconciled man to himself.  But, man must still reconcile himself to God.  It's a two way street.

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Bingo ... excellent post Molly.  And this is how I would reply to jabcat's question to me; it's not a complete reply, but it's something I'm still trying to study and to seek Truth on.

Can "WE" really do this, or again, is it speaking of a "mystery" - in that we can only do that when we're drawn by His spirit, empowered by Him to do so, and "ensured to endure" by the Beginner and Completer of our faith Who saves us by grace through the faith that HE gives us?

Did Paul reconcile himself to God, or did he only do it as God carried out His predestination of him to make him His son?  I believe the latter.  I don't believe we CAN reconcile ourselves to God whithout all the above occurring.  Otherwise, we're saving ourselves, and I don't believe we have within us the power to do that - hence the cross, grace, and mercy.  Again, the "I, yet not I".   :2c:

I keep telling you that word 'mystery' means secrets given to initiates of religious rites.  Are we not, as priests, first initiates?  And, as initiates, privy to secrets?  I'll never tell.  [But we are given the mysteries withheld from the ages.]:gangel:

Yes, we can do it.  And, no we are not saving ourselves, just, let's say, reaching out for the extended hand.

"mystery"

G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.

[WhiteWings]

Saul of Tarsus was wicked,  is there any dispute in that?

One of the Christian fallacies is to depict Saul as a "special" case implying that  what happened Saul only happened to Saul and could not happen to any other being.

^KJVAct 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

[jabcat]

Dear Molly, you can't even take your next breath unless God enables you to take it.  But if you or anyone else is able to reconcile themselves to God on your own, that's great - (but I don't believe it  :happy3:).

Least ways, I can't.  I'm probably weaker than many.

[Molly]

Dear Molly, you can't even take your next breath unless God enables you to take it.  But if you or anyone else is able to reconcile themselves to God on your own, that's great - (but I don't believe it  :happy3:).

I can't.

Then why is Paul begging people to reconcile themselves to God?

[LS]

About ED. I agree with you ED is much more likely that ET. But where exactly does it really teach ED? I'm sure you will be able to show some verses. But I'm equally sure others will refute them.

I'm sure of that as well, and for that reason don't generally think it's helpful to argue verse-for-verse.  I do have a large list of verses that talk about people who perish, are destroyed, or are no more, and it really is a large number; far more than verses that speak of universalism or et (in my opinion).  

I just have one simple question for you. What does the parable of the lost sheep means to you? Can in be aligned with ED?

I think so ... and can be summed up with John 10:26:
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

[jabcat]

Dear Molly, you can't even take your next breath unless God enables you to take it.  But if you or anyone else is able to reconcile themselves to God on your own, that's great - (but I don't believe it  :happy3:).

I can't.

Then why is Paul begging people to reconcile themselves to God?

It's the encouragement to believe, "the invitation".  "How shall they hear without a preacher?".  

When we call on the name of Jesus to be saved, then we're reconciled.  But I don't believe we can even do that unless a) the Spirit draws us and b) God gives us the faith we need to believe.

[jabcat]

I think I'll back out of this for awhile now.  I don't want to argue, or get in the spirit of arguing.  I've shared how I understand, and there's probably a point where keeping on doesn't convince anyone and it's best to find our common ground of unity.

Jesus is the Savior, He is our strength and refuge, a very present help in times of trouble.

Back later, God bless.

[LS]

Saul of Tarsus was wicked,  is there any dispute in that?

One of the Christian fallacies is to depict Saul as a "special" case implying that  what happened Saul only happened to Saul and could not happen to any other being.

^KJVAct 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Can we go back to Saul/Paul for a moment?  What happened to Saul was an amazing transformation from events the LORD brought before Him.

Very similar events happened in the OT, with a very different outcome. Balaam was also on his donkey and also spoke with the LORD; he knew very well what God wanted him to do.

But unlike Paul, there was no great transformation - Balaam argued and continued on with the intention of opposing God.

That is a perfect example of what I think happens to all men. 

I think we are all born with a "knowing" of Him, and all of nature reveals His glory.
19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse (Rom 1)

Man is born with a kind of "knowing" in his heart:
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them (Rom 2:15)

... and ...

11 He has made everything appropriate to its time, and has put the timeless into their hearts, without men's ever discovering, from beginning to end, the work which God has done. (Ecc 3)

Those things cause man to seek. When we seek, He WILL reveal Himself to us:
29 Yet there too you shall seek the LORD, your God; and you shall indeed find him when you search after him with your whole heart and your whole soul. (Deut 4)

...and...

9 "And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11)

Jesus said "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.'' (John 6:44).

I think every man is "drawn" either toward light (good ... God the Father) or toward darkness (evil, the father of lies). It isn't by force, we are all given opportunity for each, and we choose which to pursue. Several Bible passages indicate that God will turn us over to our own desires. (I can provide those if you are interested).

Those who were drawn to the Father, are given into Jesus' care - placed in His body. Those who are drawn to and follow the father of lies, are not.

I think that every person from Adam & Eve to Abraham to Mary to Judas, could have made a different choice - they were free to do so. And God would still be in control, working all things for His glory. He is so far greater than any of us and uses it all, overcoming evil with good, and using it for His purposes. He doesn't "need" to force any of us and I believe it was His will and desire to create us in His image, free to choose to love Him or to reject Him.

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?
47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

I know that's kind of long, and I hope I was able to organize it so it makes sense ... but that is what I've come to believe in my studies.

[WhiteWings]

About ED. I agree with you ED is much more likely that ET. But where exactly does it really teach ED? I'm sure you will be able to show some verses. But I'm equally sure others will refute them.

I'm sure of that as well, and for that reason don't generally think it's helpful to argue verse-for-verse.  I do have a large list of verses that talk about people who perish, are destroyed, or are no more, and it really is a large number; far more than verses that speak of universalism or et (in my opinion).  

I just have one simple question for you. What does the parable of the lost sheep means to you? Can in be aligned with ED?

I think so ... and can be summed up with John 10:26:
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

So Jesus is only the Shepherd of a small flock? The elect. All does mean all the elect not all of humanity?

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Psalm 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works
Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

For me it's clear that the flock of Jesus is 100% of humanity. But I'm aware that for many people all=elect.

[LS]

I think I'll back out of this for awhile now.  I don't want to argue, or get in the spirit of arguing.  I've shared how I understand, and there's probably a point where keeping on doesn't convince anyone and it's best to find our common ground of unity.

Jesus is the Savior, He is our strength and refuge, a very present help in times of trouble.

Back later, God bless.

I think I'm in about the same place as you - I hate arguing and I apologize to anyone if I've crossed a line or become argumentative.   :grouppray:

I have GREATLY enjoyed the discussions so far and may check back later this weekend whatever else unfolds  :thumbsup:

Blessings to you all and thank you for allowing the discussion.   :icon_flower: