The Book of Revelation

[Cardinal]

That's true......just saying doesn't make it so, unless of course, God said it. But EXPERIENCING it via the HS DOES make it so.

Joel 2 was fulfilled both naturally and spiritually on the day of Pentecost and it continues to be fulfilled the same way. What He speaks, He fulfills. Passover and the other feasts are fulfilled by the hand of the HS also. The Word is alive. Blessings....

Right, Joel 2 WAS fulfilled...not continual fulfilling. Why? Because it was an event, not a spiritual trueism. There wasn't a natural and spiritual, there was an event.

The whole idea that i recieve things via the HS is subjective mysticism. No different than people who believe that Odin gives them power, or Buddists who recieve visions. The reality seems second nature and the subjective seems to hold priority.

A true, historical and non-mystical usage of Revelation is the base for our understanding....then mystics can come in and make it mean whatever they want.

:cloud9: It was a prophesied under the inspiration of the HS event, which the HS then fulfilled in the 120, spiritually. And because there was not one covenant for the early church and another for all those that came after, it STILL fulfills it spiritually to the present day. If He did not, then He would be a respecter of persons.

If receiving things from the HS is subjective mysticism, then the WHOLE BOOK is subjective mysticism. Or don't you believe it was inspired by the HS? And Odin and Buddist's experiences are the counterfeit of the reality found in the workings of the HS among believers.

That there is hidden wisdom contained that can only be revealed by the HS, is well known among Hebrew scholars. It has been accepted by them that pardes is the only way to fully and fruitfully understand scriptures. Below is what that means. Blessings....

"The system of hebraic understanding used by all hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of PARDES whic stands for PASHAT/ Literal primary meaning, REMEZ/Hints in the text of something deeper, DRASH/ The added understanding that can only be gleaned by parables, riddles, stories etc and SOD/ Secrets and mysteries which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in text."

[Dallas]

What I am saying is, you and I are subject to our own mystical idealism and personal ideologies and doctrines. We are people who move and flow based on who we are and how we see things and how we "interpret" things...including what we call Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit Revelation.

What you experience and call HS revelation could simply be a personal understanding, and that will be based on where you are internaly at the moment. That can have nothing to do with the Holy Ghost revelation and just be personal insight.

That's howcome it's soooooo important not to re-issue what the base literary use of scripture is. The word is written so it won't be changed...we change and reflect differently on the same words...but the same words need to remain the same and in thier same origins.

That statement precludes you from being a Christian.

-Beloved Servant

This is what I am talking about....because it does proclude me in his world, based on his HS revelation...then on and on with the different HS revelations.


The word with in, the presence of Jesus within, is continually at work, but the written doesn't change...



(Of course I understand different translations, not what I'm talking about obviously)

[Beloved Servant]

I'm sorry Dallas,
But there are so many of your posts that I simply no not understand.

Like this statement from you: "The whole idea that i recieve things via the HS is subjective mysticism."

Whatever does it mean?

[Dallas]

I'm sorry Dallas,
But there are so many of your posts that I simply no not understand.

Like this statement from you: "The whole idea that i recieve things via the HS is subjective mysticism."

Whatever does it mean?

The idea (philosophy) of, "I recieve things via the HS," is subjective mysticism.

What I am saying is, you and I are subject to our own mystical idealism and personal ideologies and doctrines. We are people who move and flow based on who we are and how we see things and how we "interpret" things...including what we call Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit Revelation.

What you experience and call HS revelation could simply be a personal understanding, and that will be based on where you are internaly at the moment. That can have nothing to do with the Holy Ghost revelation and just be personal insight.

That's howcome it's soooooo important not to re-issue what the base literary use of scripture is. The word is written so it won't be changed...we change and reflect differently on the same words...but the same words need to remain the same and in thier same origins.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, then call me a "mystic", because I receive things from the HS.

Paul spent 14 years in Arabia receiving from the HS after he got knocked off his donkey, before he ever made himself known to the other apostles and ended up writing 3/4 of the NT.

The Word and the Spirit are alive and well, and work together to impart that life as revelation. Blessings...

[Dallas]

Well, then call me a "mystic", because I receive things from the HS.

Paul spent 14 years in Arabia receiving from the HS after he got knocked off his donkey, before he ever made himself known to the other apostles and ended up writing 3/4 of the NT.

The Word and the Spirit are alive and well, and work together to impart that life as revelation. Blessings...

Paul also had 40 years of Hebrew Pharisitical schooling. Just to identify a small part of that, just to be called a pharisee you had to have the whole Torah memorized, all five books.

Paul considered himself a Pharisee of Pharisees, he wasn't just some religous follower he was a highly decorated leader of the group. He lead movements, watched over stonings and as you mentioned on his way to Damascus in which he was comminsioned worthy enough and with enough authority to teach concearning other Pharisees.

He was firmly established in knowledge of the bible, and was through the written letter that Paul was taught from. It was the written letter her established his teachings and was the written letter that proved to him, Jesus was the Christ.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Absolutely; no disagreement about his credentials.......and that provided the framework of "bones" for the Spirit to clothe with "flesh", the flesh of being IN CHRIST, a spiritual principle. The scriptures are as bones, which is why not a bone of His was broken. Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

Romans 8:14 (NKJV)
14; For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

John 16: (NKJV)
13; However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

1 Corinthians 14: (NKJV)
33; For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Romans 8: (NKJV)
26; Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Ephesians 3: (NKJV)
16; that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man,

Galatians 5: (NKJV)
22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Hebrews 4: (CLV)
12; For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart.

[Beloved Servant]

John 16; (CLV)
13 Yet whenever that may be coming -- the spirit of truth --it will be guiding you into all the truth, for it will not be speaking from itself, but whatsoever it should be hearing will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you.
14 That will be glorifying Me, seeing that of Mine will it be getting, and informing you.
15 All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. Therefore I said to you that of Mine is it getting, and will be informing you.
16 "A little, and no longer are you beholding Me; and again, a little, and you shall be seeing Me."

[Dallas]

So then, without biblical understanding, we are to live according to every breath on our ear, as long as we can bend scripture to sound good.

A nice reliable means of wisdom life.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The Word witnesses the Spirit and the Spirit witnesses the Word. Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

John 10:
26; But you are not believing, seeing that you are not of My sheep, according as I said to you.
27; "My sheep are hearing My voice, and I know them, and they are following Me.
28; And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand.
29; My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to be snatching them out of My Father's hand.
30; I and the Father, We are one."
31; Again, then, the Jews bear stones that they should be stoning Him.

[Dallas]

The Word witnesses the Spirit and the Spirit witnesses the Word. Blessings....

Right, and to deny the origon of Revelation's historical and make it an internal goes against the witness of the written word. For it's a document dealing with Hebrew covenant, not internal life.

So you deny yourself.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The WHOLE WORD is Spirit, written to your spirit.

"Lowering" it into natural representations did not change It's spiritual or heavenly origin and content, for how can it be any less than what it is?

Were you changed internally by the receiving of the natural or by the impartation of the Spiritual? Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh/natural?

The letter is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, who leads us to the Father, WHO IS SPIRIT. There is a difference in knowing ABOUT Him and knowing HIM. The Spirit is to teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance.

Dallas said, "For it's a document dealing with Hebrew covenant, not internal life."

And you think John needed to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, complete with angels, to receive concerning Hebrew covenant?Blessings....  

[reFORMer]

All word:  dry up.
All spirit:  blow up.
Word and spirit:  grow up!

[Molly]

"The Gulf appears to be bleeding. Will we ever be able to stem the tide?  Will we ever be able to put a stop to this?  Will the Gulf ever heal?  As far as you can see on the horizon now, there's these mats of this reddish, pink sheen.  It was easy to find our way back to shore.  All we had to do was follow the red."

--Pilot flying over the catastrophic oil spill




8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

--Rev 8

[Cardinal]

All word:  dry up.
All spirit:  blow up.
Word and spirit:  grow up!

:cloud9: AMEN  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

"The Gulf appears to be bleeding. Will we ever be able to stem the tide?  Will we ever be able to put a stop to this?  Will the Gulf ever heal?  As far as you can see on the horizon now, there's these mats of this reddish, pink sheen.  It was easy to find our way back to shore.  All we had to do was follow the red."

--Pilot flying over the catastrophic oil spill




8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

--Rev 8

:cloud9: It's awful, isn't it? I've been reading some reports on it, and as usual, there's a cover-up of misinformation to try to downplay the seriousness of the problem.

Once again, greed runs rampant over common sense. You dig a hole with 5000 feet of water over it, things are not guaranteed to go well with that.

I've seen discussions of placing a bomb down there in the hopes it will seal up this monstrous size cavern they created. God only knows what THAT could do at that depth.  :mshock: Blessings....

[Molly]

The accuracy of that description was uncanny--a burning mountain being cast into the sea and the sea becoming blood.   I can only imagine what the vision of the real event would look like to someone in the first century.  He'd have no idea what he was seeing and could only describe what it looked like to him.  :mshock:

[eaglesway]

As we see/perceive Him as He is NOW, the darkness brought about by the union of the carnal mind and the flesh, is consumed by the light of the mind of Christ and He is formed in us. Blessings....

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:17-18)

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
(1Jn 1:6-7)

And He Who is sitting on the throne said, "Lo! New am I making all!And He is saying, "Write, for these sayings are faithful and true."
(Rev 21:5)


:boogie:

[micah7:9]

What is "spirit" that is a question. I can ask a person what is spirit and the answers vary, ghosts, fiction, storys, spiritulism, paranormal, myths, mysticism. Spirit is spirit.
It is my reasoning, that a good many believers/saints speak of the Holy Spirit but are unaware of His realm. I have come to understand and believe through the Spirit

Heb 11:1  Now faith( persuasion) is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.

God is Spirit, the word of God is written in the Book, should it remain the lettter...it kills (IICor.3:6).
The words in spirit live and are alive, bringing life to the reader in spirit.
Spirit is God, He dwells in that realm, His kingdom; it is hard to put into words but that is where the saints need to sit more each hour, in that lofty place (Heaven) where in is our citizenship  
Php 3:20  "We, however, are free citizens of Heaven, and we are waiting with longing expectation for the coming from Heaven of a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ,"

Spirit is where the saints need live and walk.  Spirit is as much substance as a rock, your hand, a hug from a loved one, spirit is NOT air. I hope the Lord had me to be understood by one.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, eaglesway and Micah!  :thumbsup: Blessings....

[Dallas]

And you think John needed to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, complete with angels, to receive concerning Hebrew covenant?Blessings....

Absolutley, just like all other great spiritual thing that happened to Israel. King Saul had the spirit yet he fell anyway, David had the spirit and acted corruptly though they both recieved concearning the Covenant.

Moses had quite the spiritual experiences with God, and all the prophets who were concearning the Hebrew people under covenant, and Abraham whom through quite a spiritual event was the covenant established.

Why would it stop until the final declaration? Why would it be different until the end?

That's what Revelation is, an offical legal document concearning the covenant. And it was just as inspired as was the rest of the bible, through spirit.

[reFORMer]

That's true......just saying doesn't make it so, unless of course, God said it. But EXPERIENCING it via the HS DOES make it so.

Joel 2 was fulfilled both naturally and spiritually on the day of Pentecost and it continues to be fulfilled the same way. What He speaks, He fulfills. Passover and the other feasts are fulfilled by the hand of the HS also. The Word is alive. Blessings....

Right, Joel 2 WAS fulfilled...not continual fulfilling. Why? Because it was an event, not a spiritual trueism. There wasn't a natural and spiritual, there was an event.

The whole idea that i recieve things via the HS is subjective mysticism. No different than people who believe that Odin gives them power, or Buddists who recieve visions. The reality seems second nature and the subjective seems to hold priority.

A true, historical and non-mystical usage of Revelation is the base for our understanding....then mystics can come in and make it mean whatever they want.

Whether "the big way," consuming large quantities of the written Word, book by book as the Lord has given it to us, or "the little way," examining a word or phrase, even the letters of it, the way to use Scripture is to enter into His presence.  When He manifests, stop reading, let go of everything and let Him draw you into Himself.  In a little while, venture to meditate with His presence on what it was that you were considering at the time, unless He reveals to you another intent.

The foremost use of Scripture by the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus within us.  "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2Cr 3:18 KJV)  If we are not changed into His image and likeness, then the purpose of God in making us is not fulfilled.  God is bringing forth a many-membered likeness of Himself in mankind.  When accomplished to His satisfaction, He will raise up that image to inherit all things and all things are revealed in the light of its rising.

Preterist, Historicist, Futurist are all "outer court" understandings of "The Book of Revelation" because they are looking for carnal enactments on the stage of world history.  When adjusted to the truth, all these perspectives have some validity.  But, Symbolic understandings apply the words to our relationship with God so continue to be profitable in aligning our souls with the Spirit which draws the body to follow.  If there is nothing "mystical" or "subjective" happening when you read Scripture you may need to start over at the beginning.

Moby Dick is to be understood through its symbolism.  That is one of the profound features of what many consider to be "The" great American novel.  Working on Billy Bud most of his life, the same author intended him to represent Christ.  How much more ought the Spirit of prophecy testify of Jesus through Scripture, the Jesus that is enthroned within us, His temple!  You yourself are a living epistle from Christ.  Your own life is to symbolically represent the gospel and the working out of salvation, manifesting the presence of God in the earth.

[eaglesway]

The foremost use of Scripture by the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus within us.  "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2Cr 3:18 KJV)  If we are not changed into His image and likeness, then the purpose of God in making us is not fulfilled.  God is bringing forth a many-membered likeness of Himself in mankind.  When accomplished to His satisfaction, He will raise up that image to inherit all things and all things are revealed in the light of its rising.

Preterist, Historicist, Futurist are all "outer court" understandings of "The Book of Revelation" because they are looking for carnal enactments on the stage of world history.  When adjusted to the truth, all these perspectives have some validity.  But, Symbolic understandings apply the words to our relationship with God so continue to be profitable in aligning our souls with the Spirit which draws the body to follow.  If there is nothing "mystical" or "subjective" happening when you read Scripture you may need to start over at the beginning.

amen