Question regarding Lake of Fire

[CHB]

Hi Dallas,

I don't ever want to be argumentive just searching for knowledge I don't have. Just trying to get to the truth.

I would like to hear what you have to say on this subject. Not saying I will agree with everything but I do respect your view and like I said I do agree with a lot that you said here.  :gimmefive:

CHB

[Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7]

CHB ?

How can the flesh be sin??

I was always taught that Sin was the Braking of God's Law!

I know that another Jew once said that he thought that "knowing to do good and not do it is Sin" (James) but it really reverts back to knowing God's Law.

a new order

[Beloved Servant]

HI CHB.
I've always saw the flesh itself as the sin we wear.
The result of missing the mark of the high calling in God.
The moment we are born we are dying to the law of sin and death working in us.
Our forefather Adam was cut of from the I AM when he sought himself and the garden was enclosed with them outside.
But thank God the river runs out again from the garden, under the threshold, so deep we can swim in it.

[Beloved Servant]

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/i-am-mark-schultz/2305843010014560090/?icid=VIDURVMUS01

[SQ]

I never get tired of that song.. :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

Hi Beloved Servant & Norvus,

I believe Eve sinned before she ever partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil of which God said "thou shalt not eat". I believe BS got it right by saying "I've always saw the flesh itself as the sin we wear".

Where does sin come from? Isn't it from our minds, hands, hearts, eyes, thoughts, our bodies which is flesh.?

CHB

[Beloved Servant]

Yes, the 5 physical senses that are lorded over by Eve, our soul, the silly woman.
But praise God we are invited to a wedding feast of Unity with the Lamb ending the duality of the split of Adam and Eve.

[Beloved Servant]

It is wonderful to note, here, that in the days of Noah that God saved 8 souls (new beginnings).
The Hebrew Lexicon says this: Ararat = "the curse reversed."
For God so loved the world...
He took on flesh (sin) and redeemed it unto Himself.
His plan, all along, was to join Spirit and flesh, tabernacle within man.
A glorious NEW CREATION!!!

[CHB]

(Rom. 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, and for sin, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH.  
Heb. says" by a sacrifice for sin."

What I get from all this is, it is the flesh that is sin, the law just makes us aware of our sins. Paul said " I wouldn't have know sin but by the law". So, we are only aware of sin because the law says it is sin. Hope that made sense.

CHB  

[Nathan]

So many places to go with all of these wonderful comments.  Adam and Eve's experience is such a gold mine of truth and pattern.  As I'm sure everyone is aware, due to previous conversations in this same subject in the past, Eve never actually fell until Adam ate.  She ate first and nothing happened. 

She was decieved and her mind actually caused her to see a false image right at the start.  First she saw it was good for food.  Problem was, she never should have seen it in that perspective in the first place because God already instructed them not to eat of it and already, she was justifying it's presence. 

Next, it was pleasant to the eyes.  The eyes are the windows to our soul.  She already "reasoned" it would be good to eat, then she became lustful toward it and next, her faith kicked in.  But it was not faith inspired by spirit.  instead it was faith from another source.  Her own mind imagined that this would make her wise.  She had not yet become as wise as she was imagining and through this, she imagined she would be as God. 

In the New Testament is a popular passage tradition embraces as a foundational passage that supports the rapture/tribulation and so forth.  It's dealing with the abomination of desolation standing in the temple.  Only problem with their doctrine on this is, the word "temple" there is not dealing with brick and mortar.  It's other usage came when Paul declared "what?  Know ye not that you are a temple of the holy ghost?"

Which would bring this all back around full circle in seeing it's our own carnal "self" that stands in the temple.  Meaning we've put ourselves in the position where only God is to be.  Which is what Eve is epitomizing.  Her desire to become wise like God is simply reflecting how carnality works in us.  So, with that image being projected in her mind, she acted on that faith.  Only thing was, once the transformation happened, it had nothing to do with wisdom, and everything to do with judgment, nakedness and shame.

Flesh is sin . . .my carnal self is sin . . .this realm is sin . .it's all influenced by death and decaying.  We focus on this realm, it affects our spiritual vision of light.  We emphasize the power of sin, it affects our ablity to release light and life. 

For me, the fall didn't stem from Eve eating the fruit as much as it does from Adam receiving it from Eve.  That's where things began to go down.  There was a comment about the ark of Noah coming to rest (I love that because "Noah" means rest, so you have rest, coming to rest . . that's just so cool) on Mt. Ararat which really does mean the curse is reversed.  But what is it that's being reverse?  What is the curse?

I don't see sin as the curse.  I see sin as the evidence the curse is in effect.  For me, the curse is when Adam received from Eve the fruit of carnality.  He was to rule over her.  He had authority over her.  Spirit rules over flesh.  But he didn't exercise that authority and instead of subduing, he submitted and "that's" when the alignment left it's original order and "that's" what the picture of Ararat was reversing.  God is restoring spiritual order in man back to it's original alignment where spirit once again has dominion over flesh. 

It's about my carnal mind always wanting to feed my spirit natural reasoning.  Knowledge of good and evil.  Surely everyone wants to do what's good, right?  Well how are you going to do good if you don't "know" what good is?  That's how our mind works.  It almost uses intimidation by applying it's own logic and it brings confusion into the argument. 

Walking in the spirit is walking beyond the limitations of knowing.  Ever wonder why Jesus had to wear a crown of thorns to the cross?  He took the curse of the mind with him.

[Beloved Servant]

Yes Nathan
God is restoring order.
For since Adam — Eve has ruled.
In the flesh the soul governs the body.

[claypot]

Where does sin come from? Isn't it from our minds, hands, hearts, eyes, thoughts, our bodies which is flesh.?

CHB

and the enemies of a man are those of his household. matt10.36

For from within,  out   of   the   heart   of  men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,  22  Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: {covetousness...: Gr. covetousnesses, wickednesses}  23  All these evil things come from within, and defile  the  man. mark 7.21

This sums it quite well for me.

Very good thread everyone.

cp

[Dallas]

where did sin come from?

Sin came from disbelief. In the garden man and woman were in complete fellowship, completley revealed (naked) with God and had no shame. God made them in His likeness and image, but the serpent lied to them saying "that God' knows in the day you eat from it you will be like Him."

Eve stopped believing God, and believed the serpent. She believed that she wasn't like God and needed to become like God.

That is what sin is. Disbelieving what God has said about you and trying to become like Him.

What was the consequence, They hid from His presence in shame. Death!

[claypot]

where did sin come from?

Sin came from disbelief. In the garden man and woman were in complete fellowship, completley revealed (naked) with God and had no shame. God made them in His likeness and image, but the serpent lied to them saying "that God' knows in the day you eat from it you will be like Him."

Eve stopped believing God, and believed the serpent. She believed that she wasn't like God and needed to become like God.

That is what sin is. Disbelieving what God has said about you and trying to become like Him.

What was the consequence, They hid from His presence in shame. Death!

Well, IMO, sin came from a weak heart and a strong carnal mindset.......for out of the heart comes forth all the nasty stuff. Adam and Eve had weak hearts which led to a carnal mindset. The lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life were in full operation before they ate of the tree. The carnal mind is enmity against God and so is the serpent. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Sin was a inevitable outcome of being created thus. It was a perfect design by God for the start of a perfect plan.

Disbelieving is the result of a weak heart.

For  out   of   the   heart  proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:  20  These are [ the  things] which defile a man: matt15.19

cp

[Dallas]

Well, IMO, sin came from a weak heart and a strong carnal mindset

So you believe God created weak children? God's image and likeness is weakness?

The truth is, they only did what they did as a result from deception, the lie of the serpent.

Scripture is quite clear that Adam and Eve were completley revealeved (naked) before God without shame, and it wasn't till after the lie did that change.

Where is your biblical support for the idea that man was created with a weak heart?

I see, "God created man in His own image" "I was sent to heal the BROKEN hearts" not weak hearts

[CHB]

Well, IMO, sin came from a weak heart and a strong carnal mindset

So you believe God created weak children? God's image and likeness is weakness?

Hi Dallas,

when God said he created man in his own image could he have meant we look like God, that is we have two hands, arms, feet, head, and so forth? Adam and Eve had eyes but they probably didn't see as well as Gods. They had a mind but I doubt it ever worked as well as God's did, else they wouldn't have let a little creature such as a serpent, or whatever it was, deceive them. What is an image of something? Some say my daughter is the spitting image of me but she isn't like me at all. I figured this is why God said everything was GOOD, not perfect.

The truth is, they only did what they did as a result from deception, the lie of the serpent.

If they had a perfect mind like God has, I don't think they would have been deceived. That would sound like God made a mistake.

Scripture is quite clear that Adam and Eve were completley revealeved (naked) before God without shame, and it wasn't till after the lie did that change.

Here is where law comes into the picture. God said "thou shalt not" and after they did what they were told not to do, they became aware of their nakedness. Like Paul said, "I would not have known what sin was but by the law". They didn't know they were naked until they did what they were told not to do. Disobeying God opened their eyes to the fact that they were naked.

Where is your biblical support for the idea that man was created with a weak heart?

I see, "God created man in His own image" "I was sent to heal the BROKEN hearts" not weak hearts

It was God who said "the heart is deceitful and wicked above all things". It was God who gave us this heart.

CHB

[claypot]

So you believe God created weak children? God's image and likeness is weakness?

You should know better than to ask that Dallas but I see some explaining is in order. If God created weakness, He did it on purpose and perfectly. God does not sin.

Yes I see God created weak 'children'. Eve had the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life in operation BEFORE eating of the tree. Do I need to show Scripture to support this?  We know that these 3 things are not good.

For all that [is] in the world, the  lust  of the  flesh , and the  lust  of the  eyes , and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1john 2.16

The only way for this lust and pride to be is if God created creatures or children in which such could grow. Lust and greed are not of God but are of the world that came from God.

For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen. romans 11.36

The truth is, they only did what they did as a result from deception, the lie of the serpent.

Scripture is quite clear that Adam and Eve were completley revealeved (naked) before God without shame, and it wasn't till after the lie did that change.

Naked is not a good thing and man did not know sin until a law came and he disobeyed it. Naked suggests to me that Adam and Eve were not yet complete. To be complete they needed to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be  clothed  upon with our house which is from heaven:  3  If so be that being  clothed  we shall not be found naked.  4  For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but  clothed  upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.2cor5.2

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and  naked :rev3.17

The deception did come via the serpent which I see as representative of our carnal mind.

Dallas, where did this 'serpent' come from? Who forms the serpent? job26.13

Where is your biblical support for the idea that man was created with a weak heart?

The  heart  [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?jere 17.9

I see, "God created man in His own image" "I was sent to heal the BROKEN hearts" not weak hearts

I see God as creating man in His own image. He starts out with Adam and ends with Jesus Christ.

cp

[Dallas]

Hi Dallas,

when God said he created man in his own image could he have meant we look like God, that is we have two hands, arms, feet, head, and so forth? Adam and Eve had eyes but they probably didn't see as well as Gods. They had a mind but I doubt it ever worked as well as God's did, else they wouldn't have let a little creature such as a serpent, or whatever it was, deceive them. What is an image of something? Some say my daughter is the spitting image of me but she isn't like me at all. I figured this is why God said everything was GOOD, not perfect.

The image of God is not a physical reflection, for God doesn't have a body. Throughout the bible God is refered to un in anthropormophisms (relating to us in terms and description we would relate and understand). Psalms say God has feathers, does God have feathers, and wings as other palms say, of course not.

As far as the image is concearned, image does not mean reflection but is concerning character of person. The bible puts alot of emphasis on man's transfoming of image into that no longer of God but into that of beast and crawling creatures. Now that obviously doesn't mean we have become feral or run on all fours chasing the gazzel, but instead charging man becoming focused on selfishness and non-spiritual cattle, meaning nothing.


God doesn't have the physical attributes as you portray them, for He isn't physical. As far as letting themselves be led astray, it was the serpent who was devious and acted with evil not Adam or Eve.

God said everything was good, so you suppose that God made things poorly? Somewhat of one who simply says, well that will suffice? What about Jesus's commments about God? Jesus said, "Why do you call me good, for there is only one who is good and He is in heaven." So if God is good according to Jesus, and God said that we were good, I would hold that judgement of His a little higher than you do.

You also said two different things, "Some say my daughter is the spitting image of me but she isn't like me at all."
Spitting image and like me... two completley different things. Image is refering to character and likeness is refering to value. Behaviour is not considered in either of these. Those are mannerisms and copying, not likeness or image. When God said He created man in His image and likeness He declared man was Good in Character and Perfected in Value, Image (displaying the characteristics of God) and Likeness (being righteous as He is Righteous)

[Dallas]

If they had a perfect mind like God has, I don't think they would have been deceived. That would sound like God made a mistake.

Again here you are applying a behaviour concept to a non-behaviour judgement. To have the mind of God doesn't mean you won't make mistakes, it means that you, like God, focus on goodness and righteousness and grace and love.

Not crossword puzzles and physics.

Here is where law comes into the picture. God said "thou shalt not" and after they did what they were told not to do, they became aware of their nakedness. Like Paul said, "I would not have known what sin was but by the law". They didn't know they were naked until they did what they were told not to do. Disobeying God opened their eyes to the fact that they were naked.

I have taught on this quite a few times. This is not a law, it is a Father teaching His children about self-preservation. Just as I say to my daughter, don't touch the stove or you will get burned. Now notice I didn't say don't touch the stove or I will burn you, God didn't say don't eat from the tree or I will kill you. God was telling them what they needed to do to be safe. This was not law, it was relationship.

I taught electronics to many friends, and I say everytime, turn off your amplifier before changing any cord. I'm not initiating any law, just teaching them amplifier preservation. Some listened and enjoyed there music, some didn't and fried thier amplifiers.

When Paul was talking about the law opening his eyes to sin He was talking about a time when God had made the covenant agreement with Moses and those Hebrews. It was because of sin (Eve not believing what God had said, He made her in His likeness) that death entered the world. Law deosn't create sin, it identifies sin.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned"

and as you said,

Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

It wasn't them becomning aware of their nakedness that was the issue, it was that being exposed to God, and knowing good and evil and knowing that their behaviour wasn't good was a judgement they were ashamned of so they covered themselves up and hid from His presence.

And just as Paul taught, they were alive once, fully exposed (naked) before God in all thier bad behaviour but had no shame, but then the knowledge of good and evil came and they became ashamed causing seperation from God...death.

[Dallas]

Naked is not a good thing

-claypot

naked is niether good or bad...that's our ingrained north american cultural interpretation. Naked means being exposed, all your private thoughts and desires, you inner most being showing.

God created them naked, they weren't clothed and had fellowship with God. If it were a "bad" thing God would have clothed them from the beginning. It wasn't till after the tree that they became ashamed, so God made them coverings so that they could hide their most inner self from Him.

The tree didn't teach them naked was a bad thing, instead they became judgemental with knowledge and judged themselves as bad and became ashamed of themselves and seeing that God was good they needed to hide from Him...for they had fear that their bad would be exposed.

[CHB]

Hi claypot,

You said it much better than I did or could. I liked what you said here.

Naked is not a good thing and man did not know sin until a law came and he disobeyed it. Naked suggests to me that Adam and Eve were not yet complete. To be complete they needed to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

I believe I read somewhere that "God didn't create man in his image but that he was CREATING man in his image". This sounds right to me because as long as we are human we are not perfect YET.

I see a lot of what Dallas is saying but I guess like he said "the flesh has my eyes blinded, or keeps me from seeing some things". I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that we are not complete and we are flesh and blood still. I don't think we are perfect YET. Now spiritually speaking I believe we are perfect and sin free because Paul said if we have died with Christ we were resurrected with him and have sit down with him, or in him. This might sound like double talk but I feel as long as I am in this decaying state, literally I am not perfect. Only the Spirit of Christ that operates in me is perfect. I pray if I am wrong that God will show me otherwise. I intend to keep an open mind and think and study on these things. I appreciate all the help and insight that everyone has given me. I have learned a lot on this forum from you all and I just want to thank you all for that. God has revealed things to me and caused me to change my mind on things now and then.

CHB

[claypot]

Dallas, I respect you but if that is all you have to say concerning all I wrote to you then I think we are done. I wrote a fairly long response to your thoughts and you replied to a 6 word phrase. This speaks to me.

God is working in you to do and to will of His good pleasure and I can live with that.

cp

[Dallas]

Dallas, I respect you but if that is all you have to say concerning all I wrote to you then I think we are done. I wrote a fairly long response to your thoughts and you replied to a 6 word phrase. This speaks to me.

God is working in you to do and to will of His good pleasure and I can live with that.

In case you hadn't noticed, I had just spent quite the time responding to CHB, and I quickly responded to something that jumped out at me from your, so not to ignore you I responded to that first.

If you feel I need to qualify you, to give you value based on my time, sorry but I do have other things other than sitting here typing.

If you didn't noticed I was also responding to another one of your posts.

[Dallas]

The  heart  [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?jere 17.9

This is a prophet speaking to the people of israel, who were under the law trying to live up to a standard. They were weighed down by sin and thusly thier hearts had become broken and instead of being filled with rightouesness they were fill with all wickedness and malice.

[Dallas]

Hey CHB,

I see a lot of what Dallas is saying but I guess like he said "the flesh has my eyes blinded, or keeps me from seeing some things". I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that we are not complete and we are flesh and blood still. I don't think we are perfect YET. Now spiritually speaking I believe we are perfect and sin free because Paul said if we have died with Christ we were resurrected with him and have sit down with him, or in him. This might sound like double talk but I feel as long as I am in this decaying state, literally I am not perfect. Only the Spirit of Christ that operates in me is perfect. I pray if I am wrong that God will show me otherwise. I intend to keep an open mind and think and study on these things. I appreciate all the help and insight that everyone has given me. I have learned a lot on this forum from you all and I just want to thank you all for that. God has revealed things to me and caused me to change my mind on things now and then.

I think this issue exsists because you are loking for something that isn't there, but was implanted by religous idealism. Religon has invented many ideas that simply isn't true but has become staples in life, the rapture bus hope, walking in heaven a place with millions of mansions and streets paved with gold, an angelic army flying through the sky swooping to earth to battle the devil and myriads of demons. They simply aren't true.


The idea that we don't make mistakes, or our minds will not ever misunderstand, are all dreams of what we want but just not a biblical concearn. The bible, God, is concearned with creating fellowship. A life we can be free to enjoy with Him and us shame free without judgement, ridicule or fighting. That man will not suffer from emotional death. We live for ever as He sustains us, we will die physically, but we will continue on just as we are now with a body that won't incure sin. But as you said we are spiritually 100% there. As Jesus is so are we in this world already. We are rightoues as He is, we are as Good as He is and we are as complete as He is.

Being perfect oin knowledge is just a matter of time. Eventually we will assimilate all knowledge...then what? Knowing everything to we simply stop exsisting? No we don't, we will still wake up to the next day...because it's not about knowledge or wisdom although profitable it's about living and experiencing and sahring that in love with all people, and God. That is and has been perfected, and you have been perfected to be part of it.