CHB, I started it here

[Zeek]

No, sorry, I know Who the Last Adam is!

I was referring to your first sentence in the quote.

i kind of figured that; but the article i linked explains why the first part of the sentence is true, because of the second. 

what u think? 

[Beloved Servant]

I think there are but 2 men in the world.
The first Adam and Christ the last.
We are either dead in the trespass of Adam or
alive in Christ Jesus.

[Zeek]

I think there are but 2 men in the world.
The first Adam and Christ the last.
We are either dead in the trespass of Adam or
alive in Christ Jesus.

For me, the "law was the ministration of death", which was covenental (agreement  between two parties). I don't see that covenant in place anymore; so if one is "dead in his trespasses" it imo is self imposed, a one sided agreement, rather than covenental.  make any sense? 

the law imo, passed away; despite man's best efforts to try to make it valid. 

The law worketh wrath.  If no more law, then no more wrath. 

Only grace to grow all of humanity. 

jmo

[Beloved Servant]

I don't know anything about the law.
I only know grace.

[Zeek]

I don't know anything about the law.
I only know grace.

did you ever know law??

[Beloved Servant]

exactly which law?

[Zeek]

exactly which law?

the one you quoted, "i don't know anything about the law"

[Beloved Servant]

well, I supposed you were speaking of the Mosiac law.
So, no, I never knew it.
I was raise Roman Catholic, they have their own set.

[Zeek]

well, I supposed you were speaking of the Mosiac law.
So, no, I never knew it.
I was raise Roman Catholic, they have their own set.

o tay

thanks

[CHB]

Hi Zeek,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess I see the lof as pertaining to the Adam in us all. I think if it was just meant for Old Covenant then Paul wouldn't have said what he did in (1Cor. 3:13-15) about "every man's work being revealed by fire" and "he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire". I don't believe Paul wasn't under the Old Covenant when he wrote this.

CHB

I don't see any of us as "adam".  Jesus was the LAST Adam.  

Yes, but didn't we inherit our flesh from Adam? As long as we are in this literal flesh don't we still have the traits, weakness and all things which the Adamic nature has? "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh".

Now if we are in Christ we will have the Spirit of Christ not Adam. (Gal. 5:24) "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the passions and lusts".

But, as I said before, if we have gotten to the point where Paul was at, then this Adamic nature has been destroyed in the lof and second death. Paul said "If we are risen with Christ we are dead, and our life is hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:1-3). I believe Paul is saying that if we have died the second death, {gotten rid of this Adamic nature} then our life is hid in God. If we are spiritually dead in Christ then the Adamic nature is dead also.  (2Cor. 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away; behold all things are become new.  I see it as those who are called and believe in this life have experienced the lof and second death, the rest will experience it later.  

I also think it has everything to do with knowledge. That is knowing that all will be saved and that Christ not only died for the world but that he has saved the world. This knowledge is not in everyone at this time.

I think the lof and second death is just the learning and growing in the knowledge of good and evil, Christ and salvation.

If you see this differently please give me your view.

CHB

[CHB]

I think there are but 2 men in the world.
The first Adam and Christ the last.
We are either dead in the trespass of Adam or
alive in Christ Jesus.

There you go!!!

[Zeek]

Hi Zeek,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess I see the lof as pertaining to the Adam in us all. I think if it was just meant for Old Covenant then Paul wouldn't have said what he did in (1Cor. 3:13-15) about "every man's work being revealed by fire" and "he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire". I don't believe Paul wasn't under the Old Covenant when he wrote this.

CHB

I don't see any of us as "adam".  Jesus was the LAST Adam.  

Yes, but didn't we inherit our flesh from Adam? As long as we are in this literal flesh don't we still have the traits, weakness and all things which the Adamic nature has? "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh".

Now if we are in Christ we will have the Spirit of Christ not Adam. (Gal. 5:24) "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the passions and lusts".

But, as I said before, if we have gotten to the point where Paul was at, then this Adamic nature has been destroyed in the lof and second death. Paul said "If we are risen with Christ we are dead, and our life is hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:1-3). I believe Paul is saying that if we have died the second death, {gotten rid of this Adamic nature} then our life is hid in God. If we are spiritually dead in Christ then the Adamic nature is dead also.  (2Cor. 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away; behold all things are become new.  I see it as those who are called and believe in this life have experienced the lof and second death, the rest will experience it later.  

If you see this differently please give me your view.

CHB

i see the "flesh" as a covenental term, the power of sin is the law.  

[Zeek]

I believe there is still a "flesh" mentality, but the "authority" or power of that "metality" has been taken away.  

Ephesians 2:11  Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

The law made the "flesh" distinction. Take away the law and one is no longer "in the flesh" but God is then "all and in all".


per a friend of mine:

"The remaining attributes of "flesh mentality" do not prove or show forth a remaining status, but an ignorance of what is.

In scripture the "flesh" is not the mind set in an of itself, but the mindset within a given economy. Take the economy away and replace it with another an the so called flesh becomes an issue of personal and social growth.

Whatever "Jew - Gentile" mindset or like mindset that one might have after the fulfillment of the law through Christ and the first-fruits, then becomes not "the flesh" but personal and social growth.

One's own mindset of Jew-Gentile (or like mind set) thereafter (post AD 70) does not establish "the flesh".

The first-fruits did not achieve a status of "complete" or "perfect" in personal growth in which no further growth was possible for them that lived on beyond the end of the old age (AD 70).

They did achieved a first fruit, completed "land mark", a required "perfection" within the context of an unfolding revelation.

This ended the flesh for them and everyone else.

To perpetuate "the flesh" beyond this point for us is to perpetuate it beyond their "completion" their being presented "perfect" and "complete" lacking in nothing [that would be required to usurer in the new age]. Whatever continued personal growth some of them may have had beyond this point was in a new age.


Phl 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is] not grievous, but for you [it is] safe.

Phl 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

Phl 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

"No confidence in the flesh" meant no that there would be nothing else learned about "flesh mentality" beyond the perfection or completion or resurrection, in the following verses.

It is contextual to a given "land mark" place where the first fruit accepted that the "authority" of that economy was passing away and so made movements accordingly.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Phl 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh [the system within the authority of that economy]. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

[in the understanding of the coming end to that economy]

Phl 3:9 And be found in him,

[at the ending of that economy]

not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Phl 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

[at the ending of this economy]

Phl 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Phl 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Phl 3:19 Whose end [is] destruction
[as the authority of "the flesh" ends with the ending of that economy],

whose God [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Whose God is their belly:


1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful for me; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Cr 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall bring to nought both it and them.

"The flesh" ended in AD 70. The belly became nothing. Meats or foods became nothing. The authorities of the system became nothing.

1Cr 2:6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

1Cr 2:8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Once the revelation is complete the old economy ceases. There is no "economy" with "the flesh". There is no more flesh.

Flesh mentality today is sustained in an economy-less mind set.

1Cr 7:29 And this I say, brethren, the time henceforth is having been shortened -- that both those having wives may be as not having;

1Cr 7:30 and those weeping, as not weeping; and those rejoicing, as not rejoicing; and those buying, as not possessing;

1Cr 7:31 and those using this world, as not using [it] up; for passing away is the fashion of this world.

The economy ends.

IMO, flesh mentality still exists.  But it is a powerless mentality, with no authority.  

Where we learn and grow is by grace and love, within the NEW economy.


The knowledge of good and evil cannot define us even when we use it to try and define ourselves.

It is still poison in that it creates the false perception that something is what it is not.

For me the issue is not so much a question of what difficulties do we still have today with the remaining mindset of "the flesh". I accept the struggles that it will still bring our way. Nor do I minimize the pain, the hurt, or the weeping that such brings alone with it.

Nor do I foresee a utopia any time soon. But the point is that we are still very young. God has always put humanities growth in front of individual comfort [Even for himself] and thus given us in our time here the best possible world that his love for us could possibly give us, in view of his long term love for humanity.

This I try to embrace while looking to improve my own spiritual outlook in the present stewardship allotted in His Grace.

The ending of the old economy does not nullify stewardship but clearly established it. All things are lawful, but not all things reflect love without condition."


I've probably sidetracked the heck of of this thread.  I apologize if I have.  



one question i do have for you CHB, is what do you see the "wrath of God" as, and do you see any relationship of it to the lake of fire?  

blessings

[Zeek]

Rom 9:3  For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Rom 9:4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

[CHB]

one question i do have for you CHB, is what do you see the "wrath of God" as, and do you see any relationship of it to the lake of fire?

It all depends on what you mean by "wrath"?
(Psalms 76:10) Surely the WRATH of man shall PRAISE  thee.

(Ecc. 5:7) All his days also he eateth in darkness, and he HATH MUCH SORROW AND WRATH WITH HIS SICKNESS.

(Isaiah 54: 8) In a little wrath I hid mny face from thee for a moment.

(1Thess. 5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath.

(Rom. 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to distruction.

(Rom. 2:5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against the day of WRATH.

(Prov. 27:4) Wrath is cruel, {Heb. wrath is cruelty} and anger is outrageous.

(James 1:20) For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

(Rev. 6:16-17) Speaks about the wrath of the Lamb. This is speaking about the coming destruction of Jerusalem.

For just a second lets get away from Jew, Gentile, laws, and get back to our earthly parents before the law of Moses was in effect. Do we not still posess the same bodies that our earthly parents had? Do we not still posess the same mindset that they had, if we don't understand and believe in Christ? We are still human, no matter how spiritual we may be. We all, you and I included, do not have all the truth, nor do we have a complete righteousness that is perfect. I think the whole human race is headed that way but as of now it isn't so. It is in the process, just like it has been in the process from the beginning. I just don't think we have gotten to the end of things yet. The laws and Covenants have no more power over us but the spirit in man does, if it hasn't been replaced with the Spirit of Christ.

Just the way I see it at this time. 

CHB 

[Zeek]

one question i do have for you CHB, is what do you see the "wrath of God" as, and do you see any relationship of it to the lake of fire?

It all depends on what you mean by "wrath"?
(Psalms 76:10) Surely the WRATH of man shall PRAISE  thee.

(Ecc. 5:7) All his days also he eateth in darkness, and he HATH MUCH SORROW AND WRATH WITH HIS SICKNESS.

(Isaiah 54: 8) In a little wrath I hid mny face from thee for a moment.

(1Thess. 5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath.

(Rom. 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to distruction.

(Rom. 2:5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against the day of WRATH.

(Prov. 27:4) Wrath is cruel, {Heb. wrath is cruelty} and anger is outrageous.

(James 1:20) For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

(Rev. 6:16-17) Speaks about the wrath of the Lamb. This is speaking about the coming destruction of Jerusalem.

For just a second lets get away from Jew, Gentile, laws, and get back to our earthly parents before the law of Moses was in effect. Do we not still posess the same bodies that our earthly parents had? Do we not still posess the same mindset that they had, if we don't understand and believe in Christ? We are still human, no matter how spiritual we may be. We all, you and I included, do not have all the truth, nor do we have a complete righteousness that is perfect. I think the whole human race is headed that way but as of now it isn't so. It is in the process, just like it has been in the process from the beginning. I just don't think we have gotten to the end of things yet. The laws and Covenants have no more power over us but the spirit in man does, if it hasn't been replaced with the Spirit of Christ.

Just the way I see it at this time. 

CHB 

cool beans,

I don't have the energy to keep going with this, but I appreciate your willingness to answer my questions.  Blessings to u.

[CHB]

Hi Zeek,

Thanks for the conversation.  :bgdance: Just want to clarify one thing I said about the destruction of Jerusalem. I was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD not the future ahead of us. Also, I don't think God is mad at us. I don't think the wrath of God is part of the lof unless it is part of learning and correction.  :2c:  :happy3:

What happened to Dallas?

CHB

[Dallas]

Colossians 1:12 "giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son

Dallas, do you think Paul is speaking spiritual here or literal. Isn't Paul saying "spiritually we are sitting in Christ"? I pinch myself and know I am still here literally in the flesh.

CHB

No, I mean literally. We right now are in the kingdom of Jesus. I live in Canada. Canada has boundries just as every country. Those were established by the leader of the country at that time through whatever means, but the boarders were established. Jesus, at the cross inhertited all creation and thusly His boundries/boarders needed to be outlined, as He inherited all of creation it became part of His kingdom.

All things are now under the rule of the kingdom of heaven, we are in the kingdom of heaven litteraly. Just as I am in Canada, Canada is in the Kingdom of heaven, all countries are... because all of creation is.


You pinch yourself in your body, the flesh is a law based dependency on circumsicion. He RESCUED us from the kingdom of darkness and HAS transfered us. These are all past tense references, yet there is alot more that also establishes this obviously, but this is what we are particulaly looking at.

Right now we are in His kingdom. Does that mean all are living according to the Kings mandates, no of course not. There are many who are rebelling against this King Jesus...but they are all rebelling against the King (they couldn't rebel unless He was ruling over them), and they are all rebeling from inside the kingdom. No one rebels from outside, it is done from within side the kingdom one rebels.

[reFORMer]

Paul was expecting his physical body of flesh to be transfigured into a body of glory like that of the resurrected Jesus, immortal and incorruptible embodiment.  This he said was the one thing he did, pursuing to attain to the out-resurrection out from among the dead, which he also spoke of as being summoned into a higher dimension in Christ.

Philippians 3:17-15 (CLT):
11 ...if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
12 Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front --
14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you.

"For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (Phil 3:20-21, CLT)

Jesus' salvation is for the whole of mankind and for the whole man, spirit, soul and body.  Without the "body" salvation all is yet vanity and there is no salvation, because death is not defeated.  To leave death undefeated in anyone is to not have that full salvation of which all the prophets testified.  It is completed in the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

[CHB]

All things are now under the rule of the kingdom of heaven, we are in the kingdom of heaven litteraly. Just as I am in Canada, Canada is in the Kingdom of heaven, all countries are... because all of creation is.

Why did Jesus say, "my kingdom is not of this world"? Do you think there are two kingdoms, one of the Father and one of the Son? One earthly and the other heavenly?

CHB

[Dallas]

Why did Jesus say, "my kingdom is not of this world"? Do you think there are two kingdoms, one of the Father and one of the Son? One earthly and the other heavenly?

CHB

Because His kingdom is not derived from the things of this world. Example, when David ushered in the Kingdom of Israel under himself it says;

1 Chronicles 12:38 "All these, being men of war who could draw up in battle formation, came to Hebron with a perfect heart to make David king over all Israel; and all the rest also of Israel were of one mind to make David king. 39 They were there with David three days, eating and drinking, for their kinsmen had prepared for them."

Romans 14:17 "for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."


The things of this world; greed, hate, death, self-righteousness, selfishness etc can not bring about peace joy and rightouesness in the Holy Ghost. Jesus's kingdom is not established upon the principles of ability but instead the kingdom is....

Mark 9:1 "And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom."


and finally...

luke 17:20 "Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He replied to them by saying, The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed or with visible display 21 Nor will people say, Look! Here! or, See, there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you and among you.