QuoteHi Dallas and All,
Dallas, I agree with a lot of what you say here. I realize the knowing and not knowing is the key. How did we come to know what we know and didn't we have to change our minds, or I should say God changed our minds? Yes, all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but won't that take a realization of who we are and have been to come to this realization? Isn't that kind of a repentance of our past knowledge to recognize who Christ really is? Are you not a different person from who you were before the bowing of the knee and confessing of the tongue? Don't you think that as long as we are in this flesh we are sin? Isn't the flesh itself sin? Isn't that what David meant when he said "(Psalms 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; AND IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME.
Just think, there are thousands of people who have never heard of Christ, all those who were born before Christ walked the earth and babies who know nothing about salvation or sin. I believe there has to come a time when these people will need to learn of salvation and who Christ is in order for them to know to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is lord. In the process of this learning don't you think that they will have trials and troubles the same as you and I? Won't they have to learn just like we have? Don't you think that they will have to experience the fire of God and dying to self and sin just like we have?
I know that you believe all things have been fulfilled. I believe that we are in the process but haven't gotten to the end yet, else we would all be immortal now. I believe that all in all is still in the future. I think some were chosen to understand now and some much later. Until all comes to this same understanding the world will be in a mess and I do not see people falling to their knees and acknowledging Christ as you say. I see the world getting worse and worse with murders, rapes, stealing, lying, idol worshipping, you name it. It will take Christ returning to straighten out this mess the world is in. Only a very few know about the salvation of all, don't you think everyone should come to this knowledge?
CHB
QuoteHow did we come to know what we know and didn't we have to change our minds, or I should say God changed our minds? Yes, all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but won't that take a realization of who we are and have been to come to this realization?
Yes, absolutley. It is because when Jesus died they we were fully included, what we are realizing is that because of what He did I have all things already. I didn't gain anything when I came to the knowledge of what Jesus did, because I had always had it because it was given to me at the cross. That being said I didn't benifit from the cross until I had the knowledge of it. Which came first the cross or the knowledge, the cross did. The effect of the cross became as real and full for me then as it did when I came to realize what had always been there, but with realization also came benifiting from it.
So it wasn't me coming to knowledge or repentance or choice that included me into all things, but I was included in all things at the cross, I didn't know I was included until the message entered my ears of what happened. But I was fully included even when I didn't know.
QuoteIsn't that kind of a repentance of our past knowledge to recognize who Christ really is? Are you not a different person from who you were before the bowing of the knee and confessing of the tongue? Don't you think that as long as we are in this flesh we are sin? Isn't the flesh itself sin? Isn't that what David meant when he said "(Psalms 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; AND IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME.
Repentance is always connected to an agreement. When we make an agreement and say one of us goes off that path of that agreement the other one needs to return to the agreement, that is the act of repenting. It is mystical Greek theology that has taken the idea of repenting and turned it into the charasmatic ideology of personal repentance to God. It was always refering to the Jews returning to the covenant agreement with God, never for us. Repentance is not a new church concept.
The flesh is also an old covenant concept, it wash established in Genesis 17 and legalized in Levitcus. In Genesis 17 God establishes the covenant with Abraham and his decendents, and God establishes it circumsicion and says;
Genesis 17:7"I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
10"This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
11"And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
14"But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."
This is why the Hebrew people are so focused on the flesh, it is clear that the moark in the flesh is what will include them into the pormises of God and to not have the mark in the flesh you will be excluded from the promises of God. The whole use of flesh being sinful man and flesh being the sin in us and fles being our bad behaviour is simply not biblical. Flesh as used in the bible is refering to the Hewbrew covenant with God. This later became law in Leviticus, this becomming the use of it throughout scripture.
When people refer to the flesh people are refering to adhering to the law in order to be included into the pormises of God. The works of the flesh are man trying to become righteous on his own effort, using circumsicion and the law in order to establish their own righteousness, but as Paul preached, give up dependancy on the law for entrance into the promises of God instead trust what Jesus did gets you into the promises. That's why Paul was labeled heritic by Jews, Paul and the aposltes were preaching to not adhere to the law!!
QuoteJust think, there are thousands of people who have never heard of Christ, all those who were born before Christ walked the earth and babies who know nothing about salvation or sin. I believe there has to come a time when these people will need to learn of salvation and who Christ is in order for them to know to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is lord. In the process of this learning don't you think that they will have trials and troubles the same as you and I? Won't they have to learn just like we have? Don't you think that they will have to experience the fire of God and dying to self and sin just like we have
The trials and learning are self-imposed, that is us fighting the gospel, that we are fully included. When you deny that you will suffer, rather continue to suffer until you accept the truth that you are included.
Dying to oneself is a western concept that has been blown out of porpotion. Dying to oneself is as thus; Man is trying to become good and right, trying to establish themselves good enough to inherit the goodness of God because they think they need to improve who they are because who they are isn't good enough, but Jesus has made man perfect and good and completley acceptable in all ways. Dying to oneself is stopping trying to make oneself better and acknowledging that Jesus is the one who establishes me. If Jesus makes me good than nothing I do makes me good so that life of trying to make myself good dies.
QuoteI know that you believe all things have been fulfilled. I believe that we are in the process but haven't gotten to the end yet, else we would all be immortal now. I believe that all in all is still in the future. I think some were chosen to understand now and some much later. Until all comes to this same understanding the world will be in a mess and I do not see people falling to their knees and acknowledging Christ as you say. I see the world getting worse and worse with murders, rapes, stealing, lying, idol worshipping, you name it. It will take Christ returning to straighten out this mess the world is in. Only a very few know about the salvation of all, don't you think everyone should come to this knowledge?
I believe all things have been fulfilled as it concearns the old covenant. The end has come, to the old covenant, there will be no end to the new covenant. Immortal is a western concept and is not biblical. We are children of God, we exsist forever, we are forever already. God is already all in all, and just as you came to realize and continue to realize so will everybody, not because God is spreading but because God has spread.
QuoteI believe that all in all is still in the future. I think some were chosen to understand now and some much later
. For what purpose? All come into the revealing when it is proper for them to know. God is at work individualy working on the hearts of everyman and doing exactally what it takes to love them to Him, that will look and take a different amount of time for everyone, each in his own time.
QuoteUntil all comes to this same understanding the world will be in a mess and I do not see people falling to their knees and acknowledging Christ as you say.Quote
I have, you have, all the people on this one of many forums say they have..... as far as only seeing the increase of sin that is a matter of perspective. If I say to you yellow cars, now you will be more attentive to seeing yellow cars on the road you will. Because you are looking for sin you will see it, but I am looking at the good work of God and I see it. Enjoy seeing the increase of yellow cars LOL
Quote from: Dallas on April 07, 2010, 10:49:09 PM
QuoteJust think, there are thousands of people who have never heard of Christ, all those who were born before Christ walked the earth and babies who know nothing about salvation or sin. I believe there has to come a time when these people will need to learn of salvation and who Christ is in order for them to know to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is lord. In the process of this learning don't you think that they will have trials and troubles the same as you and I? Won't they have to learn just like we have? Don't you think that they will have to experience the fire of God and dying to self and sin just like we have
The trials and learning are self-imposed, that is us fighting the gospel, that we are fully included. When you deny that you will suffer, rather continue to suffer until you accept the truth that you are included.
Dying to oneself is a western concept that has been blown out of porpotion. Dying to oneself is as thus; Man is trying to become good and right, trying to establish themselves good enough to inherit the goodness of God because they think they need to improve who they are because who they are isn't good enough, but Jesus has made man perfect and good and completley acceptable in all ways. Dying to oneself is stopping trying to make oneself better and acknowledging that Jesus is the one who establishes me. If Jesus makes me good than nothing I do makes me good so that life of trying to make myself good dies.
Dallas,
do you think that the first century saints were "dying to self" prior to the parousia in order to inherit the kingdom? And if so, weren't they "working out their salvation" with fear and trembling??
QuoteDallas,
do you think that the first century saints were "dying to self" prior to the parousia in order to inherit the kingdom? And if so, weren't they "working out their salvation" with fear and trembling??
They were trying to switch allegiance from the circuscion in the law to trust in the work of Jesus,...so yes.
Working out thier salvation, is just saying figuring things out, and with fear and trembling is refeing to it's a scary thing giving up what you have accomplished in order to trust the work of God instead.
Paul was no different from us, and explains it as such.... when you spend your life trying to establish youself standing, it's first of all a battle in your understanding to stop that and it's scary giving up what you have built in yourself to trust your standing to something else.
Quote from: Dallas on April 07, 2010, 11:27:07 PM
QuoteDallas,
do you think that the first century saints were "dying to self" prior to the parousia in order to inherit the kingdom? And if so, weren't they "working out their salvation" with fear and trembling??
They were trying to switch allegiance from the circuscion in the law to trust in the work of Jesus,...so yes.
Working out thier salvation, is just saying figuring things out, and with fear and trembling is refeing to it's a scary thing giving up what you have accomplished in order to trust the work of God instead.
Paul was no different from us, and explains it as such.... when you spend your life trying to establish youself standing, it's first of all a battle in your understanding to stop that and it's scary giving up what you have built in yourself to trust your standing to something else.
Were those who weren't trying to switch, but still under law, and clinging to it; included too, but just didn't know it?
and why (after the cross) were there those headed for a "horrible tempest" when they were "included"?
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
QuoteWere those who weren't trying to switch, but still under law, and clinging to it; included too, but just didn't know it?
and why (after the cross) were there those headed for a "horrible tempest" when they were "included"?
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Yes those who were switch allegiance from law to Jesus were under the law at that time. Between the cross, and His return (AD70), Even though the new church was in Jesus the Law was still in effect until the temple came down. They were living in a weird time, all the promises were fulfilled in Christ but they still were waiting for the reality of it. When the temple came down the promise of freedom became substance (reality not promise anymore.)
Now the Hebrews scripture you quoted, when taken out of context is read alone seems to be quite daming! But, we can't take it out of context...
Passage Hebrews 10:19-29 "19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Now if we read this in context....Paul is talking about the early churches new position assurance and why they have confidence to enter the holy place, that the promise is made by God who is faithful and can be trusted and for that reason they shouldn't infight but instead support each other because they would recieve the same judgement that was coming on Jerusalem as was deserved for the people who loved the law and not Jesus. Even though they had the true knowledge that the high preist's sacrifices didn't actually deal with sin, that wouldn't save them from the same judgement that those who killed Jesus (trampled Him under foot obviously the Jews). Paul then reminds the church that the Jew who rejected the Holy Sacrifice of God would recieve a severe punishment because they rjected Him then He would reject them.
This whole speech from Paul is not a negative fear thing but a morale booster. He was encouraging them to stick together for a great judgement was coming to Jerusalem and they the church would be safe because of Jesus but the non-believer was under law and they wouldn't be saved by grace from the judgement of it.
Quote from: Dallas on April 08, 2010, 01:42:25 AM
QuoteWere those who weren't trying to switch, but still under law, and clinging to it; included too, but just didn't know it?
and why (after the cross) were there those headed for a "horrible tempest" when they were "included"?
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Yes those who were switch allegiance from law to Jesus were under the law at that time. Between the cross, and His return (AD70), Even though the new church was in Jesus the Law was still in effect until the temple came down. They were living in a weird time, all the promises were fulfilled in Christ but they still were waiting for the reality of it. When the temple came down the promise of freedom became substance (reality not promise anymore.)
Now the Hebrews scripture you quoted, when taken out of context is read alone seems to be quite daming! But, we can't take it out of context...
Passage Hebrews 10:19-29 "19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Now if we read this in context....Paul is talking about the early churches new position assurance and why they have confidence to enter the holy place, that the promise is made by God who is faithful and can be trusted and for that reason they shouldn't infight but instead support each other because they would recieve the same judgement that was coming on Jerusalem as was deserved for the people who loved the law and not Jesus. Even though they had the true knowledge that the high preist's sacrifices didn't actually deal with sin, that wouldn't save them from the same judgement that those who killed Jesus (trampled Him under foot obviously the Jews). Paul then reminds the church that the Jew who rejected the Holy Sacrifice of God would recieve a severe punishment because they rjected Him then He would reject them.
This whole speech from Paul is not a negative fear thing but a morale booster. He was encouraging them to stick together for a great judgement was coming to Jerusalem and they the church would be safe because of Jesus but the non-believer was under law and they wouldn't be saved by grace from the judgement of it.
cool,
i was trying to figure out how u said "Paul was no different from us"
yet
you would agree that he was coming out from "under law" which we aren't; so I was trying to figure out the the two statemets.
Quote from: dallasDallas,
do you think that the first century saints were "dying to self" prior to the parousia in order to inherit the kingdom? And if so, weren't they "working out their salvation" with fear and trembling??
Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Dallas, you skipped the next verse! Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both
to will and
to work for His good pleasure.
Seems like you work out nothing! Ever! ... for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Hey, what do I know? :dontknow:
More than you perhaps?
Paul
QuoteHey, what do I know?
More than you perhaps?
Paul
Classy Paul, hope you feel better about yourself now.
QuoteQuote from: dallas
Dallas,
do you think that the first century saints were "dying to self" prior to the parousia in order to inherit the kingdom? And if so, weren't they "working out their salvation" with fear and trembling??
Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Dallas, you skipped the next verse!
Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Seems like you work out nothing! Ever! ... for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Ya, and? This is what I said????
Do you even understand the statement you are making, because there really doens't seem to be any context for your statement.
But it's plainly obvious that you want to star a fight, you want to be right and for some reason feel the need to try to prove me wrong so I will simply not engage.
You niether grasped the context of what Zeek and i were talking about, and have your own agenda...so I won't engage in your pointless argument of one.
Oh and by the way....self-righteousness does suit you.
Dalas, you wrote:
QuoteImmortal is a western concept and is not biblical. We are children of God, we exsist forever, we are forever already. God is already all in all, and just as you came to realize and continue to realize so will everybody, not because God is spreading but because God has spread.
"Forever already" is an unscriptural term. If we are "forever already" why does Paul look forward to the resurrection?
You say "Immortal is not biblical." Of course it is biblical. If we were immortal already why did Paul look forward to the future day when we will put on immortality . . .
(1 Corinthians 15:53 CLV) "For this corruptible
must put on incorruption,
and this mortal [must] put on immortality."
(1 Corinthians 15:54 CLV) "Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption
and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory."
No greater than Paul are you.
If the believer already has immortality, or, as you say, is "forever alive," then how come in Paul's day Christ was the only One who had "forever aliveness" or biblically, "immortality" as stated here?
(1 Timothy 6:16 CLV) "
Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!"
Also, God can't be "All in all" right now because all the things preceding that great event must take place first as Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 15:23-27.
God is not even All in the believer yet. We only have the ernest of the spirit (2 Cor.1:22). If God were All in us now we wouldn't be having this discussion and disagreement and we would already have put on incorruption and immortality.
Quote from: Dallas on April 07, 2010, 09:32:33 PM
QuoteHow did we come to know what we know and didn't we have to change our minds, or I should say God changed our minds? Yes, all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but won't that take a realization of who we are and have been to come to this realization?
Yes, absolutley. It is because when Jesus died they we were fully included, what we are realizing is that because of what He did I have all things already. I didn't gain anything when I came to the knowledge of what Jesus did, because I had always had it because it was given to me at the cross. That being said I didn't benifit from the cross until I had the knowledge of it. Which came first the cross or the knowledge, the cross did. The effect of the cross became as real and full for me then as it did when I came to realize what had always been there, but with realization also came benifiting from it.
So it wasn't me coming to knowledge or repentance or choice that included me into all things, but I was included in all things at the cross, I didn't know I was included until the message entered my ears of what happened. But I was fully included even when I didn't know.
Wow!!! I am a little late aren't I? :mblush: will have to go to the beginning and read all these post before I can reply to anything.
I do agree with what you said above. I do think the whole human race was included from the foundation of the world, it is just the way God brought things about that caused the blindness and the closed ears.
Paul talked about this through the Mystery that he said had been hidden since the foundation of the world. It was all in God's plan from the beginning to save the world but the world has had to learn by bits and pieces that this is true. The way I see it is, the world is still in blindness because most think we are under the New Covenant when this is not the case at all. We do not need a Covenant. We are of the family of God not Israel but most do not see this. The Covenants and promises were ONLY for israel, not Gentiles (Rom. 9:4) (Heb. 8:8).
CHB
As far as immortality is concearned...what does immortality mean? Can't be killed, can't die??!?!?!?!
Death is put to death?!?!?! Paul taught that, "I was alive once then the law came and I died," Now that the law has no power or authority death no longer reigns. The western mind set sees immortatlity as superman impenitrible body of steel. Why isn't immortality a bigger deal as it's mentioned litterally 5 times. Simpley because it's a constant teaching about salvation from death.
Timothy 1:10 "
but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"
Colossians 1:12 "giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the
inheritance of the saints in Light. 13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and
transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
Hopefully I don't also need to prove to you that Jesus kingdom is Light.
QuoteIf the believer already has immortality, or, as you say, is "forever alive," then how come in Paul's day Christ was the only One who had "forever aliveness" or biblically, "immortality" as stated here?
Like is also said, between the cross and the temple coming down in AD70 was a weird time for man, for they had the dcomplete assurance of things in Christ yet as the temple still stod the law still had power and authority. So at the time of Pauls writing, the temple was still up and kept themout of the holy of holies. But when the temple came down all of creation changed, for the temple came down as a result of Jesus sitting on the throne and His presence filled all of creation, and since He was on the throne as Head over the new government the old one was destroyed and all it's counterparts. His rule and power came in, thus transforming the way of all things forever including causing all to realisze life eternal.
QuoteWow!!! I am a little late aren't I? will have to go to the beginning and read all these post before I can reply to anything.
I do agree with what you said above. I do think the whole human race was included from the foundation of the world, it is just the way God brought things about that caused the blindness and the closed ears.
Paul talked about this through the Mystery that he said had been hidden since the foundation of the world. It was all in God's plan from the beginning to save the world but the world has had to learn by bits and pieces that this is true. The way I see it is, the world is still in blindness because most think we are under the New Covenant when this is not the case at all. We do not need a Covenant. We are of the family of God not Israel but most do not see this. The Covenants and promises were ONLY for israel, not Gentiles (Rom. 9:4) (Heb. 8:8).
CHB
The blindness as true as it is does not remove them from the hand of Goid though. They are as included and recieve the completeness of that fullness now...unfourtunatley for them they don't believe and thus don't benifit and there we have a real need and Good need to preach. Not to save them, but to enlighten them.
We don't need a covenant, absolutley, that's why we have the promises. That's why we are more than conquerers, for we get it all without a fight!! It's actually a nice relief to hear you say that. We have been restored to the garden of eden, where there was no covenant ruling over love, there was just love and relationship...it was man who mucked that all up and it was God who fixed it and there are still people who want that mucked up but I am glad to see there are also some people who want it cleaned up too.
Quote from: Dallas
The works of the flesh are man trying to become righteous on his own effort, using circumsicion and the law in order to establish their own righteousness, but as Paul preached, give up dependancy on the law for entrance into the promises of God instead trust what Jesus did gets you into the promises. That's why Paul was labeled heritic by Jews, Paul and the aposltes were preaching to not adhere to the law!!
Amen to this also. I have heard Baptist preachers say, oh you can't earn your salvation, salvation is not about works. Duh! then how do they reason that people go to hell? What do they believe people go to hell for? Don't make any sense. Also, they preach, "going to Church will not save you but if you are saved you will go to Church". They preach you have to do this or that and still say it's not by works".
CHB
Am enjoying your guys' insights on this thread . ..just thought I'd tell ya so.
Quote from: Dallas
Dying to oneself is as thus; Man is trying to become good and right, trying to establish themselves good enough to inherit the goodness of God because they think they need to improve who they are because who they are isn't good enough, but Jesus has made man perfect and good and completley acceptable in all ways. Dying to oneself is stopping trying to make oneself better and acknowledging that Jesus is the one who establishes me. If Jesus makes me good than nothing I do makes me good so that life of trying to make myself good dies.
I see this a little bit different. It is not I that is trying to become good or right but Christ that is working in me to make me who I am. When the self is gone, as you pointed out that "it is Jesus that makes me good" when that is accomplished then you only have Christ, self is dead. I think we are pretty much saying the same thing here.
CHB
Quote from: Dallas
The end has come, to the old covenant, there will be no end to the new covenant. Immortal is a western concept and is not biblical. We are children of God, we exsist forever, we are forever already. God is already all in all, and just as you came to realize and continue to realize so will everybody, not because God is spreading but because God has spread.
I believe you are right, the end has come to the Old Covenant, there are people who still keep it though because they don't understand that it has come to an end.
Why do you think there will be no end to the New Covenant? The New Covenant has a few rules and regulations associated with it, such as baptism, keeping of the Lord's Supper, faith was required. You would think there would be no need for it. A Covenant is an agreement between two parties to do this or that, will we need this when we become spirit beings?
CHB
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxMnr0pM78U
Quote from: CHB on April 09, 2010, 02:39:11 AM
I believe you are right, the end has come to the Old Covenant, there are people who still keep it though because they don't understand that it has come to an end.
CHB
So I take it you don't see the lake of fire as the "means to the end of the old covenant (death of death 2Co 3:7)" since you believe believers go through the lof today?
and if the "law worketh wrath", why would a believer or non believer have the "wrath of God abide on him/her" if the "old covenant/law" has been done away with?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 09, 2010, 02:43:35 AM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxMnr0pM78U
Hey, good song. :thumbsup:
CHB
Quote from: Zeek on April 09, 2010, 02:55:09 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 09, 2010, 02:39:11 AM
I believe you are right, the end has come to the Old Covenant, there are people who still keep it though because they don't understand that it has come to an end.
CHB
[quote author=Zeek[
So I take it you don't see the lake of fire as the "means to the end of the old covenant (death of death 2Co 3:7)" since you believe believers go through the lof today?
At this time, I believe we go through the lof and second death. I think when we get to the place that Paul was in his walk then we have gone through the lof and second death. I say "at this time" because I have changed my mind about things before.
Quote from: Zeek
and if the "law worketh wrath", why would a believer or non believer have the "wrath of God abide on him/her" if the "old covenant/law" has been done away with?
Don't really know what you are asking here Zeek. What do you mean by "the wrath of God"? I don't remember where I said any thing about the wrath of God abiding on anyone. Show me what you are referring to.
CHB
Yeah, I missed that too, CHB.
Quote from: CHB on April 09, 2010, 03:38:53 AM
Quote from: Zeek
and if the "law worketh wrath", why would a believer or non believer have the "wrath of God abide on him/her" if the "old covenant/law" has been done away with?
Don't really know what you are asking here Zeek. What do you mean by "the wrath of God"? I don't remember where I said any thing about the wrath of God abiding on anyone. Show me what you are referring to.
CHB
Sorry, I assumed you looked at the lof as being the "wrath of God". Do you?
and if so; then why would anyone today go through the "wrath of God" if it is the "law/old cov" that worketh wrath is "no longer valid"?
Do you mean the "Wrath of the Lamb"?
Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
I see this "fire" as the lake of fire, do you?
Psa 89:46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself forever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
Eze 22:21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
"Many people are afraid of the word wrath. I'm not afraid to use it because it is not a mean or vindictive word! What is wrath? It has always been taught by the carnal church systems in a negative way and it should not be. What is the biblical meaning of wrath? The Greek word is orge meaning "to reach out with passionate desire and take hold of." It is quite clear that the orge of the Lamb has nothing to do with uncontrolled anger or vindictive vengeance! The very simplest definition of the Greek word orge is "passion." The passion of the Lamb! What a word that is! That rendering certainly reconciles the apparent contradiction inherent in the King James Bible: "The wrath of the Lamb." Who has ever seen a wrathful lamb? Show me one and I might consider the remote possibility of Christ coming in wrath upon mankind, in the way it is taught in the church systems of man. But there are no wrathful lambs!"
— J Preston Eby
KingdomBibleStudies.org
FROM THE CANDLESTICK TO THE THRONE
Part 95
So back to my question to CHB, my understanding of your belief is that the "old covenant" system has been done away with, and is no longer valid . And yet you see the lake of fire as something still present today upon believers.
I look at the "wrath of God and the lake of fire as being the same thing and tied to the "old covenant" (the end of it, the death of death_. Do you?
and I also wonder if you see the "old covenant" and the "law" as the same thing?
The Scripture was misquoted. It does NOT say, "where there is no law there is no sin!"
Romans 4:15...
"...where 3757 no 3756 law 3551 is 2076 , [there is] no 3761 transgression 3847."
parabasis Strong's G3847
1) a going over
2) metaph. a disregarding, violating
a) of the Mosaic law
b) the breach of a definite, promulgated, ratified law
c) to create transgressions, i.e. that sins might take on the character of transgressions, and thereby the consciousness of sin be intensified and the desire for redemption be aroused
from the root:
parabaino Strong's G3845
1) to go by the side of
2) to go past or pass over without touching a thing
3) to overstep, neglect, violate, transgress
4) so to go past as to turn aside from
a) to depart, leave, be turned from
5) one who abandons his trust
The meaning from the lexicons (incl. Knoch) is...
para "beside" and baino "to walk"
Comparatively, the word "sin" is...
Romans 5:21...
"That 2443 as 5618 sin 266 hath reigned 936 unto 1722 death 2288, even 2532 so 3779 might 936 0 grace 5485 reign 936 through 1223 righteousness 1343 unto 1519 eternal 166 life 2222 by 1223 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547 our 2257 Lord 2962."
hamartia Strong's G266
1) equivalent to 264
a) to be without a share in
b) to miss the mark
c) to err, be mistaken
d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many
Those who do away with the law are lawless. "...law is not laid down for the just, yet it is for the lawless and insubordinate, the irreverent and sinners, the malign and profane..." There is a superior law of life and liberty in Christ which frees us from the law of sin unto death. It is not freeing us from God's law.
1 Timothy 1:8-10 (CLT)...
8 Now we are aware that the law is ideal if ever anyone is using it lawfully,
9 being aware of this, that law is not laid down for the just, yet it is for the lawless and insubordinate, the irreverent and sinners, the malign and profane, thrashers of fathers and thrashers of mothers, homicides,
10 paramours, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and if any other thing is opposing sound teaching,
11 in accord with the evangel of the glory of the happy God, with which I was entrusted.
There is no war between God's law and His evangel, or gospel. There is a qualitative difference between a "law of life" and words written with pen and ink. To try to bring about the life of God within us by working the written words of God's law, or torah, is to fail.
Romans 3:21-23 (CLT)...
21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),
22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God.
I know of a group in California a few years ago that believed the law was fulfilled and they were now in resurrection life. They would slam their Bibles shut and throw them across the room, shouting, "Close the book on that old coffin!" Some of them were brought to trial for letting their eleven year old boy die for lack by not giving him insulin. When he died they said he'd be raised from the dead an be as Christ so kept his body ten days before the police were called in. (My dad was a special "expert" witness for the prosecution...I think that's what they called him.)
Quote from: reFORMer on April 09, 2010, 05:58:09 AM
I know of a group in California a few years ago that believed the law was fulfilled and they were now in resurrection life. They would slam their Bibles shut and throw them across the room, shouting, "Close the book on that old coffin!" Some of them were brought to trial for letting their eleven year old boy die for lack by not giving him insulin. When he died they said he'd be raised from the dead an be as Christ so kept his body ten days before the police were called in. (My dad was a special "expert" witness for the prosecution...I think that's what they called him.)
and i know wonderful beautiful people who believe all is fulfilled including the resurrection; and they are loving, kind, giving, and demonstrate the fruits of the spirit.
By redefining "resurrection" and dismissing any Scripture that would "check" such an errant mindset as belonging only to the interim between an age or dispensation of law and the destruction of Jerusalem the full preterists seem able to convince themselves that the Apostle's illuminating words in 2 Tim don't apply to them...
2 Timothy 2:16-18 (CLT)...
16 Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing to more irreverence,
17 and their word will spread as gangrene, of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus,
18 who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some.
As long as your "do-do" still stinks, you have not entered the deathless (ie., immortal) state. However Scripture may be fulfilled, it has not ended.
While no one of them has an exclusive claim of truth, Preterist, Historicist, and Futurist are valid views of Scripture, when rightly adjusted. They are Literalist interpretations and "outer court" understandings that look for an actual fulfillment on the stage of world history. Symbolist understandings are several: corporate Allegory of the Church and Israel, Idealist as what goes on inside the soul of each believer as they experience God, and so on. For the Holy Spirit to use the words of Scripture to transform us into the image and likeness of God is superior to carnal events in the world that will pass while we remain. Probably the biggest failure is to take only one perspective as valid while dismissing or even opposing the rest. Even though we may have obtained an understanding from the various positions that does not mean we have done anything more than our homework. We have only been prepared. Now we must have the Holy Spirit breathe His own life into the text that we may truly partake of Him.
I agree James, it's pieces of so many different POVs - it's hard to put all the scriptures and how that gets lived out in each of our lives in a neat little package sometimes. I was just remembering that old thread, 'natural vs. spiritual' - ("why, it's both, silly"!) :laughing7:
Good post.
Quote from: Zeek on April 09, 2010, 03:59:29 AM
So back to my question to CHB, my understanding of your belief is that the "old covenant" system has been done away with, and is no longer valid . And yet you see the lake of fire as something still present today upon believers.
Sorry you all, I can't post as often as I would like to. Will answer when I can.
Zeek, I believe there are no Covenants that pertain to the Gentiles, only Israel. I think the Old and New Covenants are still here because people still keep them. I don't think it is necessary for anyone to keep any laws in order to be saved. People still keep the laws O and N because they don't know any better. There is still a vail over their eyes.
Quote from: Zeek
I look at the "wrath of God and the lake of fire as being the same thing and tied to the "old covenant" (the end of it, the death of death_. Do you?
I don't think the lake of fire is tied to the old covenant. Ok, if the lof IS the second death and the end of the Old C, why is death the last enemy to be destroyed, wouldn't it have been destroyed along with the Old C when Jesus was crucified? Remember there is a New C. wouldn't it be tied to it as well?
Quote from: Zeek
and I also wonder if you see the "old covenant" and the "law" as the same thing?
Yes, I do.
CHB
Quote from: Dallas
Colossians 1:12 "giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son
Dallas, do you think Paul is speaking spiritual here or literal. Isn't Paul saying "spiritually we are sitting in Christ"? I pinch myself and know I am still here literally in the flesh.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2010, 01:29:37 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 09, 2010, 03:59:29 AM
So back to my question to CHB, my understanding of your belief is that the "old covenant" system has been done away with, and is no longer valid . And yet you see the lake of fire as something still present today upon believers.
Sorry you all, I can't post as often as I would like to. Will answer when I can.
Zeek, I believe there are no Covenants that pertain to the Gentiles, only Israel. I think the Old and New Covenants are still here because people still keep them. I don't think it is necessary for anyone to keep any laws in order to be saved. People still keep the laws O and N because they don't know any better. There is still a vail over their eyes.
Quote from: Zeek
I look at the "wrath of God and the lake of fire as being the same thing and tied to the "old covenant" (the end of it, the death of death_. Do you?
I don't think the lake of fire is tied to the old covenant. Ok, if the lof IS the second death and the end of the Old C, why is death the last enemy to be destroyed, wouldn't it have been destroyed along with the Old C when Jesus was crucified? Remember there is a New C. wouldn't it be tied to it as well?
Quote from: Zeek
and I also wonder if you see the "old covenant" and the "law" as the same thing?
Yes, I do.
CHB
Death the last enemy to be destroyed . . .hmmm . . . taking a step back to get a look at the bigger picture with that . . .death . .to me . .is separation. When I physically die, my spirit and soul separate from this body of flesh. When Adam died from eating the fruit of knowledge, he was separated from the realm of God. But when death dies . . .separation dies. Which can only mean one thing . . .if death is dead, all people are no longer separated from God.
Very cool.
May it be quick, may it be mighty. Death to DEATH!!! Yee Ha!!
Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2010, 01:29:37 AM
I don't think the lake of fire is tied to the old covenant.
CHB
ok, thank you. appreciate your response back.
Joel 2 :1-3 (specifically vs.3):
" Blow the trumpet in Zion,
and sound an alarm in my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
for the day of Yahweh comes,
for it is close at hand:
2:2 A day of darkness and gloominess,
a day of clouds and thick darkness.
As the dawn spreading on the mountains,
a great and strong people;
there has never been the like,
neither will there be any more after them,
even to the years of many generations.
2:3 A fire devours before them,
and behind them, a flame burns.
The land is as the garden of Eden before them,
and behind them, a desolate wilderness.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Joe 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
Joe 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
Joe 3:20 But Judah shall dwell forever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
Joe 3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
Zeek, are you saying that what you have written is still future? What are you saying by these verses?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2010, 03:55:22 AM
Zeek, are you saying that what you have written is still future? What are you saying by these verses?
CHB
i'm saying that the lake of fire imo is tied to the "old man", under "law", that had to die. it was covenental "old man/old covenant creature" that "went down in shame"; via fire.
I agree with you that the old covenant is "done away with" except in man's ignorance; but from God's perspective, imo; the "old covenant creature was destroyed via "fire", second death. I have a hard time seeing how one doesn't see the lake of fire as the judgement upon the "old man/covenant creature".
The reason I underlined before and behind, is i'm thinking if one is in a lake, the fire is "all around" before and behind.
Hi Zeek,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess I see the lof as pertaining to the Adam in us all. I think if it was just meant for Old Covenant then Paul wouldn't have said what he did in (1Cor. 3:13-15) about "every man's work being revealed by fire" and "he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire". I don't believe Paul wasn't under the Old Covenant when he wrote this.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2010, 04:14:19 AM
Hi Zeek,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess I see the lof as pertaining to the Adam in us all. I think if it was just meant for Old Covenant then Paul wouldn't have said what he did in (1Cor. 3:13-15) about "every man's work being revealed by fire" and "he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire". I don't believe Paul wasn't under the Old Covenant when he wrote this.
CHB
I don't see any of us as "adam". Jesus was the LAST Adam.
Hosea 6
7 But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.
a friend of mine wrote this, which makes me think a little more:
1 Cor 15
22 "for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."
Adam died by transgressing the law/breaking covenant with God:
Hosea 6
7 But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.
Death reigned over the Gentiles as well:
Romans 5
14 but death reigned from Adam until Moses, even on those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of the coming One.
The Adamic covenant:
Genesis 2
16 ¶ And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden;
17 but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.
The Mosaic law was "added to increase the trespass" (Romans 5:20)
I believe that death entered through Adam in that the law/covenant was passed on through Adam. He therefore received it on our behalfs, just as Christ later (the "last Adam" 1 Cor 15:45) received and passed on the New Covenant on our behalfs. The trespass of the OC increased in Israel, as did Grace increase in the NC through Israel.
Under the Old Covenant, man pursued God and could not reach him on his own. As you can see in Romans 5:15, "death reigned until Moses", there was some semblance of life in the Law. I think that it twinkled in as hope and faith for the future resurrection. "Where sin abounded grace did much more abound" (Romans 5:20).
Sin ("sin" defined as "trespass of the law") now, no longer abounds. Paul asks the rhetorical question that I think means "Shall the law ordinance remain in place that grace might abound?" I think it means that because if no law convicts us/them, then there is no sin. Here's the reference:
Romans 6
1 ¶ What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Whether or not Grace still abounds, brings this to mind:
John 1
16 And out of His fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace.
17 For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Keeping the law was the only way to have a covenant relationship with God back then. God said to Moses:
Exodus 19
5 And now if listening you will listen to My voice, and will keep My covenant, you shall become a special treasure to Me above all the nations, for all the earth is Mine.
6 And you shall become a kingdom of priests for Me, a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the sons of Israel.
So if they kept the covenant passed on through Moses, they would be a special treasure, a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. The people accepted the covenant offered by God through Moses (Exodus 24:7). Problem -- no one was able to keep the law (All were sinners/trespassers Romans 3:23). If Israel could not keep the law, then Israel would not become Priests (intercessors) for God to humanity. Gentiles would remain separate from God and dead, and the Abrahamic covenant couldn't be fulfilled.
Abrahamic covenant: "In you all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Gen 12:3). "All the land which you see I will give to you, and to your seed always. And I will make your seed as the dust of the earth, so that if a man can count the dust of the earth, then your seed also will be counted." (Gen 12:15, 16). The covenant given to Abraham was unconditional and required no agreement or effort on Abraham's part (Gen 15).
The New Covenant (see also Hebrews 8:8):
Jer 31
31 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Jehovah).
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, declares Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah. For they shall all know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them, declares Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.
The New Covenant was also unconditional. When Hebrews was written, the Old Covenant was "growing aged is near disappearing." (Hebrews 8:13). Hebrews 12:24 declares Jesus as the mediator of the New Covenant.
All things were fulfilled in him, and through him, Israel was enabled to become "Kings and Priests".
The New Covenant sort of becomes God's pursuit of humanity - rather than the other way around. So nothing is required on our behalf. God is present with all of humanity and will wait patiently for those who don't notice, to notice - or to know him in the next life.
Quote from: Zeek on April 10, 2010, 04:21:50 AM
I don't see any of us as "adam". Jesus was the LAST Adam.
Wow Zeek,
I never heard that before.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 10, 2010, 04:30:19 AM
Quote from: Zeek on April 10, 2010, 04:21:50 AM
I don't see any of us as "adam". Jesus was the LAST Adam.
Wow Zeek,
I never heard that before.
here is an interesting article re: last adam
http://sigler.org/seed3.htm
No, sorry, I know Who the Last Adam is!
I was referring to your first sentence in the quote.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 10, 2010, 04:46:13 AM
No, sorry, I know Who the Last Adam is!
I was referring to your first sentence in the quote.
i kind of figured that; but the article i linked explains why the first part of the sentence is true, because of the second.
what u think?
I think there are but 2 men in the world.
The first Adam and Christ the last.
We are either dead in the trespass of Adam or
alive in Christ Jesus.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 10, 2010, 05:02:53 AM
I think there are but 2 men in the world.
The first Adam and Christ the last.
We are either dead in the trespass of Adam or
alive in Christ Jesus.
For me, the "law was the ministration of death", which was covenental (agreement between two parties). I don't see that covenant in place anymore; so if one is "dead in his trespasses" it imo is self imposed, a one sided agreement, rather than covenental. make any sense?
the law imo, passed away; despite man's best efforts to try to make it valid.
The law worketh wrath. If no more law, then no more wrath.
Only grace to grow all of humanity.
jmo
I don't know anything about the law.
I only know grace.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 10, 2010, 05:09:37 AM
I don't know anything about the law.
I only know grace.
did you ever know law??
exactly which law?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 10, 2010, 05:14:00 AM
exactly which law?
the one you quoted, "i don't know anything about the law"
well, I supposed you were speaking of the Mosiac law.
So, no, I never knew it.
I was raise Roman Catholic, they have their own set.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 10, 2010, 05:16:30 AM
well, I supposed you were speaking of the Mosiac law.
So, no, I never knew it.
I was raise Roman Catholic, they have their own set.
o tay
thanks
Quote from: Zeek on April 10, 2010, 04:21:50 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2010, 04:14:19 AM
Hi Zeek,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess I see the lof as pertaining to the Adam in us all. I think if it was just meant for Old Covenant then Paul wouldn't have said what he did in (1Cor. 3:13-15) about "every man's work being revealed by fire" and "he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire". I don't believe Paul wasn't under the Old Covenant when he wrote this.
CHB
I don't see any of us as "adam". Jesus was the LAST Adam.
Yes, but didn't we inherit our flesh from Adam? As long as we are in this literal flesh don't we still have the traits, weakness and all things which the Adamic nature has? "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh".
Now if we are in Christ we will have the Spirit of Christ not Adam. (Gal. 5:24) "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the passions and lusts".
But, as I said before, if we have gotten to the point where Paul was at, then this Adamic nature has been destroyed in the lof and second death. Paul said "If we are risen with Christ we are dead, and our life is hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:1-3). I believe Paul is saying that if we have died the second death, {gotten rid of this Adamic nature} then our life is hid in God. If we are spiritually dead in Christ then the Adamic nature is dead also. (2Cor. 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away; behold all things are become new. I see it as those who are called and believe in this life have experienced the lof and second death, the rest will experience it later.
I also think it has everything to do with knowledge. That is knowing that all will be saved and that Christ not only died for the world but that he
has saved the world. This knowledge is not in everyone at this time.
I think the lof and second death is just the learning and growing in the knowledge of good and evil, Christ and salvation.
If you see this differently please give me your view.
CHB
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 10, 2010, 05:02:53 AM
I think there are but 2 men in the world.
The first Adam and Christ the last.
We are either dead in the trespass of Adam or
alive in Christ Jesus.
There you go!!!
Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2010, 05:54:42 PM
Quote from: Zeek on April 10, 2010, 04:21:50 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2010, 04:14:19 AM
Hi Zeek,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess I see the lof as pertaining to the Adam in us all. I think if it was just meant for Old Covenant then Paul wouldn't have said what he did in (1Cor. 3:13-15) about "every man's work being revealed by fire" and "he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire". I don't believe Paul wasn't under the Old Covenant when he wrote this.
CHB
I don't see any of us as "adam". Jesus was the LAST Adam.
Yes, but didn't we inherit our flesh from Adam? As long as we are in this literal flesh don't we still have the traits, weakness and all things which the Adamic nature has? "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh".
Now if we are in Christ we will have the Spirit of Christ not Adam. (Gal. 5:24) "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the passions and lusts".
But, as I said before, if we have gotten to the point where Paul was at, then this Adamic nature has been destroyed in the lof and second death. Paul said "If we are risen with Christ we are dead, and our life is hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:1-3). I believe Paul is saying that if we have died the second death, {gotten rid of this Adamic nature} then our life is hid in God. If we are spiritually dead in Christ then the Adamic nature is dead also. (2Cor. 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away; behold all things are become new. I see it as those who are called and believe in this life have experienced the lof and second death, the rest will experience it later.
If you see this differently please give me your view.
CHB
i see the "flesh" as a covenental term, the
power of sin is the law.
I believe there is still a "flesh" mentality, but the "authority" or power of that "metality" has been taken away.
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands
12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
The law made the "flesh" distinction. Take away the law and one is no longer "in the flesh" but God is then "all and in all".
per a friend of mine:
"The remaining attributes of "flesh mentality" do not prove or show forth a remaining status, but an ignorance of what is.
In scripture the "flesh" is not the mind set in an of itself, but the mindset within a given economy. Take the economy away and replace it with another an the so called flesh becomes an issue of personal and social growth.
Whatever "Jew - Gentile" mindset or like mindset that one might have after the fulfillment of the law through Christ and the first-fruits, then becomes not "the flesh" but personal and social growth.
One's own mindset of Jew-Gentile (or like mind set) thereafter (post AD 70) does not establish "the flesh".
The first-fruits did not achieve a status of "complete" or "perfect" in personal growth in which no further growth was possible for them that lived on beyond the end of the old age (AD 70).
They did achieved a first fruit, completed "land mark", a required "perfection" within the context of an unfolding revelation.
This ended the flesh for them and everyone else.
To perpetuate "the flesh" beyond this point for us is to perpetuate it beyond their "completion" their being presented "perfect" and "complete" lacking in nothing [that would be required to usurer in the new age]. Whatever continued personal growth some of them may have had beyond this point was in a new age.
Phl 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is] not grievous, but for you [it is] safe.
Phl 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Phl 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
"No confidence in the flesh" meant no that there would be nothing else learned about "flesh mentality" beyond the perfection or completion or resurrection, in the following verses.
It is contextual to a given "land mark" place where the first fruit accepted that the "authority" of that economy was passing away and so made movements accordingly.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Phl 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh [the system within the authority of that economy]. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
[in the understanding of the coming end to that economy]
Phl 3:9 And be found in him,
[at the ending of that economy]
not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
[at the ending of this economy]
Phl 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Phl 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phl 3:19 Whose end [is] destruction
[as the authority of "the flesh" ends with the ending of that economy],
whose God [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Whose God is their belly:
1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful for me; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Cr 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall bring to nought both it and them.
"The flesh" ended in AD 70. The belly became nothing. Meats or foods became nothing. The authorities of the system became nothing.
1Cr 2:6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
1Cr 2:8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Once the revelation is complete the old economy ceases. There is no "economy" with "the flesh". There is no more flesh.
Flesh mentality today is sustained in an economy-less mind set.
1Cr 7:29 And this I say, brethren, the time henceforth is having been shortened -- that both those having wives may be as not having;
1Cr 7:30 and those weeping, as not weeping; and those rejoicing, as not rejoicing; and those buying, as not possessing;
1Cr 7:31 and those using this world, as not using [it] up; for passing away is the fashion of this world.
The economy ends.
IMO, flesh mentality still exists. But it is a powerless mentality, with no authority.
Where we learn and grow is by grace and love, within the NEW economy.
The knowledge of good and evil cannot define us even when we use it to try and define ourselves.
It is still poison in that it creates the false perception that something is what it is not.
For me the issue is not so much a question of what difficulties do we still have today with the remaining mindset of "the flesh". I accept the struggles that it will still bring our way. Nor do I minimize the pain, the hurt, or the weeping that such brings alone with it.
Nor do I foresee a utopia any time soon. But the point is that we are still very young. God has always put humanities growth in front of individual comfort [Even for himself] and thus given us in our time here the best possible world that his love for us could possibly give us, in view of his long term love for humanity.
This I try to embrace while looking to improve my own spiritual outlook in the present stewardship allotted in His Grace.
The ending of the old economy does not nullify stewardship but clearly established it. All things are lawful, but not all things reflect love without condition."
I've probably sidetracked the heck of of this thread. I apologize if I have.
one question i do have for you CHB, is what do you see the "wrath of God" as, and do you see any relationship of it to the lake of fire?
blessings
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Quote from: Zeek
one question i do have for you CHB, is what do you see the "wrath of God" as, and do you see any relationship of it to the lake of fire?
It all depends on what you mean by "wrath"?
(Psalms 76:10) Surely the WRATH of man shall PRAISE thee.
(Ecc. 5:7) All his days also he eateth in darkness, and he HATH MUCH SORROW AND WRATH WITH HIS SICKNESS.
(Isaiah 54: 8) In a little wrath I hid mny face from thee for a moment.
(1Thess. 5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath.
(Rom. 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to distruction.
(Rom. 2:5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against the day of WRATH.
(Prov. 27:4) Wrath is cruel, {Heb. wrath is cruelty} and anger is outrageous.
(James 1:20) For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
(Rev. 6:16-17) Speaks about the wrath of the Lamb. This is speaking about the coming destruction of Jerusalem.
For just a second lets get away from Jew, Gentile, laws, and get back to our earthly parents before the law of Moses was in effect. Do we not still posess the same bodies that our earthly parents had? Do we not still posess the same mindset that they had, if we don't understand and believe in Christ? We are still human, no matter how spiritual we may be. We all, you and I included, do not have all the truth, nor do we have a complete righteousness that is perfect. I think the whole human race is headed that way but as of now it isn't so. It is in the process, just like it has been in the process from the beginning. I just don't think we have gotten to the end of things yet. The laws and Covenants have no more power over us but the spirit in man does, if it hasn't been replaced with the Spirit of Christ.
Just the way I see it at this time.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 10, 2010, 07:46:18 PM
Quote from: Zeek
one question i do have for you CHB, is what do you see the "wrath of God" as, and do you see any relationship of it to the lake of fire?
It all depends on what you mean by "wrath"?
(Psalms 76:10) Surely the WRATH of man shall PRAISE thee.
(Ecc. 5:7) All his days also he eateth in darkness, and he HATH MUCH SORROW AND WRATH WITH HIS SICKNESS.
(Isaiah 54: 8) In a little wrath I hid mny face from thee for a moment.
(1Thess. 5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath.
(Rom. 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to distruction.
(Rom. 2:5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against the day of WRATH.
(Prov. 27:4) Wrath is cruel, {Heb. wrath is cruelty} and anger is outrageous.
(James 1:20) For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
(Rev. 6:16-17) Speaks about the wrath of the Lamb. This is speaking about the coming destruction of Jerusalem.
For just a second lets get away from Jew, Gentile, laws, and get back to our earthly parents before the law of Moses was in effect. Do we not still posess the same bodies that our earthly parents had? Do we not still posess the same mindset that they had, if we don't understand and believe in Christ? We are still human, no matter how spiritual we may be. We all, you and I included, do not have all the truth, nor do we have a complete righteousness that is perfect. I think the whole human race is headed that way but as of now it isn't so. It is in the process, just like it has been in the process from the beginning. I just don't think we have gotten to the end of things yet. The laws and Covenants have no more power over us but the spirit in man does, if it hasn't been replaced with the Spirit of Christ.
Just the way I see it at this time.
CHB
cool beans,
I don't have the energy to keep going with this, but I appreciate your willingness to answer my questions. Blessings to u.
Hi Zeek,
Thanks for the conversation. :bgdance: Just want to clarify one thing I said about the destruction of Jerusalem. I was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD not the future ahead of us. Also, I don't think God is mad at us. I don't think the wrath of God is part of the lof unless it is part of learning and correction. :2c: :happy3:
What happened to Dallas?
CHB
QuoteColossians 1:12 "giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son
Dallas, do you think Paul is speaking spiritual here or literal. Isn't Paul saying "spiritually we are sitting in Christ"? I pinch myself and know I am still here literally in the flesh.
CHB
No, I mean literally. We right now are in the kingdom of Jesus. I live in Canada. Canada has boundries just as every country. Those were established by the leader of the country at that time through whatever means, but the boarders were established. Jesus, at the cross inhertited all creation and thusly His boundries/boarders needed to be outlined, as He inherited all of creation it became part of His kingdom.
All things are now under the rule of the kingdom of heaven, we are in the kingdom of heaven litteraly. Just as I am in Canada, Canada is in the Kingdom of heaven, all countries are... because all of creation is.
You pinch yourself in your body, the flesh is a law based dependency on circumsicion. He RESCUED us from the kingdom of darkness and HAS transfered us. These are all past tense references, yet there is alot more that also establishes this obviously, but this is what we are particulaly looking at.
Right now we are in His kingdom. Does that mean all are living according to the Kings mandates, no of course not. There are many who are rebelling against this King Jesus...but they are all rebelling against the King (they couldn't rebel unless He was ruling over them), and they are all rebeling from inside the kingdom. No one rebels from outside, it is done from within side the kingdom one rebels.
Paul was expecting his physical body of flesh to be transfigured into a body of glory like that of the resurrected Jesus, immortal and incorruptible embodiment. This he said was the one thing he did, pursuing to attain to the out-resurrection out from among the dead, which he also spoke of as being summoned into a higher dimension in Christ.
Philippians 3:17-15 (CLT):
11 ...if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
12 Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front --
14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you.
"For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (Phil 3:20-21, CLT)
Jesus' salvation is for the whole of mankind and for the whole man, spirit, soul and body. Without the "body" salvation all is yet vanity and there is no salvation, because death is not defeated. To leave death undefeated in anyone is to not have that full salvation of which all the prophets testified. It is completed in the sounding of the seventh trumpet.
Quote from: Dallas
All things are now under the rule of the kingdom of heaven, we are in the kingdom of heaven litteraly. Just as I am in Canada, Canada is in the Kingdom of heaven, all countries are... because all of creation is.
Why did Jesus say, "my kingdom is not of this world"? Do you think there are two kingdoms, one of the Father and one of the Son? One earthly and the other heavenly?
CHB
QuoteWhy did Jesus say, "my kingdom is not of this world"? Do you think there are two kingdoms, one of the Father and one of the Son? One earthly and the other heavenly?
CHB
Because His kingdom is not derived from the things of this world. Example, when David ushered in the Kingdom of Israel under himself it says;
1 Chronicles 12:38 "All these, being men of war who could draw up in battle formation, came to Hebron with a perfect heart to make David king over all Israel; and all the rest also of Israel were of one mind to make David king. 39 They were there with David three days, eating and drinking, for their kinsmen had prepared for them."
Romans 14:17 "for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."
The things of this world; greed, hate, death, self-righteousness, selfishness etc can not bring about peace joy and rightouesness in the Holy Ghost. Jesus's kingdom is not established upon the principles of ability but instead the kingdom is....
Mark 9:1 "And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."
Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom."
and finally...
luke 17:20 "Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He replied to them by saying, The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed or with visible display 21 Nor will people say, Look! Here! or, See, there! For behold,
the kingdom of God is within you and among you.