CHB, I started it here

[Zeek]

and if the "law worketh wrath", why would a believer or non believer have the "wrath of God abide on him/her" if the "old covenant/law" has been done away with? 

Don't really know what you are asking here Zeek. What do you mean by "the wrath of God"? I don't remember where I said any thing about the wrath of God abiding on anyone. Show me what you are referring to.

CHB

Sorry, I assumed you looked at the lof as being the "wrath of God".  Do you?  

and if so; then why would anyone today go through the "wrath of God" if it is the "law/old cov" that worketh wrath is "no longer valid"?

[Beloved Servant]

Do you mean the "Wrath of the Lamb"?

[Zeek]

Psa 21:9  Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

I see this "fire" as the lake of fire, do you?

[Zeek]

Psa 89:46  How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself forever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?

Eze 22:21  Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.

Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Zep 1:18  Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.


Rev 16:19  And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

[Beloved Servant]

"Many people are afraid of the word wrath.  I'm not afraid to use it because it is not a mean or vindictive word!  What is wrath?  It has always been taught by the carnal church systems in a negative way and it should not be.  What is the biblical meaning of wrath?  The Greek word is orge meaning "to reach out with passionate desire and take hold of."  It is quite clear that the orge of the Lamb has nothing to do with uncontrolled anger or vindictive vengeance!  The very simplest definition of the Greek word orge is "passion."  The passion of the Lamb!  What a word that is!  That rendering certainly reconciles the apparent contradiction inherent in the King James Bible: "The wrath  of the Lamb."  Who has ever seen a wrathful lamb?  Show me one and I might consider the remote possibility of Christ coming in wrath upon mankind, in the way it is taught in the church systems of man.  But there are no wrathful lambs!"

                                                                                                                                                — J Preston Eby
                                                                                                                                                KingdomBibleStudies.org
                                                                                                                                                FROM THE CANDLESTICK  TO THE THRONE
                                                                                                                                                Part 95

[Zeek]

So back to my question to CHB, my understanding of your belief is that the "old covenant" system has been done away with, and is no longer valid .  And yet you see the lake of fire as something still present today upon believers.  

I look at the "wrath of God and the lake of fire as being the same thing and tied to the "old covenant" (the end of it, the death of death_.  Do you?


and I also wonder if you see the "old covenant" and the "law" as the same thing?

[reFORMer]

The Scripture was misquoted.  It does NOT say, "where there is no law there is no sin!"

Romans 4:15...
"...where 3757 no 3756 law 3551 is 2076 , [there is] no 3761 transgression 3847."

parabasis     Strong's G3847
1) a going over
2) metaph. a disregarding, violating
     a) of the Mosaic law
     b) the breach of a definite, promulgated, ratified law
     c) to create transgressions, i.e. that sins might take on the character of transgressions, and thereby the consciousness of sin be intensified and the desire for redemption be aroused

from the root:
parabaino     Strong's G3845
1) to go by the side of
2) to go past or pass over without touching a thing
3) to overstep, neglect, violate, transgress
4) so to go past as to turn aside from
      a) to depart, leave, be turned from
5) one who abandons his trust

The meaning from the lexicons (incl. Knoch) is...
para "beside" and baino "to walk"


Comparatively, the word "sin" is...
Romans 5:21...
"That 2443 as 5618 sin 266 hath reigned 936 unto 1722 death 2288, even 2532 so 3779 might 936 0 grace 5485 reign 936 through 1223 righteousness 1343 unto 1519 eternal 166 life 2222 by 1223 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547 our 2257 Lord 2962."

hamartia     Strong's G266
1) equivalent to 264
     a) to be without a share in
     b) to miss the mark
     c) to err, be mistaken
     d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
     e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

Those who do away with the law are lawless.  "...law is not laid down for the just, yet it is for the lawless and insubordinate, the irreverent and sinners, the malign and profane..."  There is a superior law of life and liberty in Christ which frees us from the law of sin unto death.  It is not freeing us from God's law.

1 Timothy 1:8-10 (CLT)...
8 Now we are aware that the law is ideal if ever anyone is using it lawfully,
9 being aware of this, that law is not laid down for the just, yet it is for the lawless and insubordinate, the irreverent and sinners, the malign and profane, thrashers of fathers and thrashers of mothers, homicides,
10 paramours, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and if any other thing is opposing sound teaching,
11 in accord with the evangel of the glory of the happy God, with which I was entrusted.

There is no war between God's law and His evangel, or gospel.  There is a qualitative difference between a "law of life" and words written with pen and ink.  To try to bring about the life of God within us by working the written words of God's law, or torah, is to fail.

Romans 3:21-23 (CLT)...
21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),
22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God.

[reFORMer]

I know of a group in California a few years ago that believed the law was fulfilled and they were now in resurrection life.  They would slam their Bibles shut and throw them across the room, shouting, "Close the book on that old coffin!"  Some of them were brought to trial for letting their eleven year old boy die for lack by not giving him insulin.  When he died they said he'd be raised from the dead an be as Christ so kept his body ten days before the police were called in.  (My dad was a special "expert" witness for the prosecution...I think that's what they called him.)

[Zeek]

I know of a group in California a few years ago that believed the law was fulfilled and they were now in resurrection life.  They would slam their Bibles shut and throw them across the room, shouting, "Close the book on that old coffin!"  Some of them were brought to trial for letting their eleven year old boy die for lack by not giving him insulin.  When he died they said he'd be raised from the dead an be as Christ so kept his body ten days before the police were called in.  (My dad was a special "expert" witness for the prosecution...I think that's what they called him.)

and i know wonderful beautiful people who believe all is fulfilled including the resurrection; and they are loving, kind, giving, and demonstrate the fruits of the spirit. 

[reFORMer]

By redefining "resurrection" and dismissing any Scripture that would "check" such an errant mindset as belonging only to the interim between an age or dispensation of law and the destruction of Jerusalem the full preterists seem able to convince themselves that the Apostle's illuminating words in 2 Tim don't apply to them...

2 Timothy 2:16-18 (CLT)...
16 Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing to more irreverence,
17 and their word will spread as gangrene, of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus,
18 who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some.

As long as your "do-do" still stinks, you have not entered the deathless (ie., immortal) state.  However Scripture may be fulfilled, it has not ended.

While no one of them has an exclusive claim of truth, Preterist, Historicist, and Futurist are valid views of Scripture, when rightly adjusted.  They are Literalist interpretations and "outer court" understandings that look for an actual fulfillment on the stage of world history.  Symbolist understandings are several:  corporate Allegory of the Church and Israel, Idealist as what goes on inside the soul of each believer as they experience God, and so on.  For the Holy Spirit to use the words of Scripture to transform us into the image and likeness of God is superior to carnal events in the world that will pass while we remain.  Probably the biggest failure is to take only one perspective as valid while dismissing or even opposing the rest.  Even though we may have obtained an understanding from the various positions that does not mean we have done anything more than our homework.  We have only been prepared.  Now we must have the Holy Spirit breathe His own life into the text that we may truly partake of Him.

[jabcat]

I agree James, it's pieces of so many different POVs - it's hard to put all the scriptures and how that gets lived out in each of our lives in a neat little package sometimes.  I was just remembering that old thread, 'natural vs. spiritual' -  ("why, it's both, silly"!)   :laughing7:

Good post.

[CHB]

So back to my question to CHB, my understanding of your belief is that the "old covenant" system has been done away with, and is no longer valid .  And yet you see the lake of fire as something still present today upon believers.

Sorry you all, I can't post as often as I would like to. Will answer when I can.

Zeek, I believe there are no Covenants that pertain to the Gentiles, only Israel. I think the Old and New Covenants are still here because people still keep them. I don't think it is necessary for anyone to keep any laws in order to be saved. People still keep the laws O and N because they don't know any better. There is still a vail over their eyes.

I look at the "wrath of God and the lake of fire as being the same thing and tied to the "old covenant" (the end of it, the death of death_.  Do you?

I don't think the lake of fire is tied to the old covenant. Ok, if the lof IS the second death and the end of the Old C, why is death the last enemy to be destroyed, wouldn't it have been destroyed along with the Old C when Jesus was crucified? Remember there is a New C. wouldn't it be tied to it as well?

and I also wonder if you see the "old covenant" and the "law" as the same thing?

Yes, I do.

CHB

[CHB]

Colossians 1:12 "giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son

Dallas, do you think Paul is speaking spiritual here or literal. Isn't Paul saying "spiritually we are sitting in Christ"? I pinch myself and know I am still here literally in the flesh.

CHB

[Nathan]

So back to my question to CHB, my understanding of your belief is that the "old covenant" system has been done away with, and is no longer valid .  And yet you see the lake of fire as something still present today upon believers.

Sorry you all, I can't post as often as I would like to. Will answer when I can.

Zeek, I believe there are no Covenants that pertain to the Gentiles, only Israel. I think the Old and New Covenants are still here because people still keep them. I don't think it is necessary for anyone to keep any laws in order to be saved. People still keep the laws O and N because they don't know any better. There is still a vail over their eyes.

I look at the "wrath of God and the lake of fire as being the same thing and tied to the "old covenant" (the end of it, the death of death_.  Do you?

I don't think the lake of fire is tied to the old covenant. Ok, if the lof IS the second death and the end of the Old C, why is death the last enemy to be destroyed, wouldn't it have been destroyed along with the Old C when Jesus was crucified? Remember there is a New C. wouldn't it be tied to it as well?

and I also wonder if you see the "old covenant" and the "law" as the same thing?

Yes, I do.

CHB

Death the last enemy to be destroyed . . .hmmm . . . taking a step back to get a look at the bigger picture with that . . .death .  .to me . .is separation.  When I physically die, my spirit and soul separate from this body of flesh.  When Adam died from eating the fruit of knowledge, he was separated from the realm of God.  But when death dies . . .separation dies.  Which can only mean one thing . . .if death is dead, all people are no longer separated from God.

Very cool.

May it be quick, may it be mighty.  Death to DEATH!!!  Yee Ha!!

[Zeek]

I don't think the lake of fire is tied to the old covenant.
CHB

ok, thank you.  appreciate your response back. 

[Zeek]

Joel 2 :1-3 (specifically vs.3):

" Blow the trumpet in Zion,
and sound an alarm in my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
for the day of Yahweh comes,
for it is close at hand:
2:2 A day of darkness and gloominess,
a day of clouds and thick darkness.
As the dawn spreading on the mountains,
a great and strong people;
there has never been the like,
neither will there be any more after them,
even to the years of many generations.
2:3 A fire devours before them,
and behind them, a flame burns.
The land is as the garden of Eden before them,
and behind them, a desolate wilderness.


Joe 2:32  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joe 3:16  The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Joe 3:17  So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Joe 3:18  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

Joe 3:19  Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

Joe 3:20  But Judah shall dwell forever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

Joe 3:21  For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

[CHB]

Zeek, are you saying that what you have written is still future? What are you saying by these verses?

CHB

[Zeek]

Zeek, are you saying that what you have written is still future? What are you saying by these verses?

CHB

i'm saying that the lake of fire imo is tied to the "old man", under "law", that had to die.  it was covenental "old man/old covenant creature" that "went down in shame"; via fire.   

I agree with you that the old covenant is "done away with" except in man's ignorance; but from God's perspective, imo; the "old covenant creature was destroyed via "fire", second death.  I have a hard time seeing how one doesn't see the lake of fire as the judgement upon the "old man/covenant creature".   

The reason I underlined before and behind, is i'm thinking if one is in a lake, the fire is "all around" before and behind. 

[CHB]

Hi Zeek,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess I see the lof as pertaining to the Adam in us all. I think if it was just meant for Old Covenant then Paul wouldn't have said what he did in (1Cor. 3:13-15) about "every man's work being revealed by fire" and "he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire". I don't believe Paul wasn't under the Old Covenant when he wrote this.

CHB

[Zeek]

Hi Zeek,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess I see the lof as pertaining to the Adam in us all. I think if it was just meant for Old Covenant then Paul wouldn't have said what he did in (1Cor. 3:13-15) about "every man's work being revealed by fire" and "he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire". I don't believe Paul wasn't under the Old Covenant when he wrote this.

CHB

I don't see any of us as "adam".  Jesus was the LAST Adam.  

[Zeek]

Hosea 6
7 But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.

[Zeek]

a friend of mine wrote this, which makes me think a little more:

1 Cor 15
22 "for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."
Adam died by transgressing the law/breaking covenant with God:

Hosea 6
7 But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.

Death reigned over the Gentiles as well:

Romans 5
14 but death reigned from Adam until Moses, even on those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of the coming One.

The Adamic covenant:

Genesis 2
16 ¶ And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden;
17 but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.

The Mosaic law was "added to increase the trespass" (Romans 5:20)

I believe that death entered through Adam in that the law/covenant was passed on through Adam. He therefore received it on our behalfs, just as Christ later (the "last Adam" 1 Cor 15:45) received and passed on the New Covenant on our behalfs. The trespass of the OC increased in Israel, as did Grace increase in the NC through Israel.

Under the Old Covenant, man pursued God and could not reach him on his own. As you can see in Romans 5:15, "death reigned until Moses", there was some semblance of life in the Law. I think that it twinkled in as hope and faith for the future resurrection. "Where sin abounded grace did much more abound" (Romans 5:20).

Sin ("sin" defined as "trespass of the law") now, no longer abounds. Paul asks the rhetorical question that I think means "Shall the law ordinance remain in place that grace might abound?" I think it means that because if no law convicts us/them, then there is no sin. Here's the reference:

Romans 6
1 ¶ What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

Whether or not Grace still abounds, brings this to mind:

John 1
16 And out of His fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace.
17 For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Keeping the law was the only way to have a covenant relationship with God back then. God said to Moses:

Exodus 19
5 And now if listening you will listen to My voice, and will keep My covenant, you shall become a special treasure to Me above all the nations, for all the earth is Mine.
6 And you shall become a kingdom of priests for Me, a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the sons of Israel.

So if they kept the covenant passed on through Moses, they would be a special treasure, a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. The people accepted the covenant offered by God through Moses (Exodus 24:7). Problem -- no one was able to keep the law (All were sinners/trespassers Romans 3:23). If Israel could not keep the law, then Israel would not become Priests (intercessors) for God to humanity. Gentiles would remain separate from God and dead, and the Abrahamic covenant couldn't be fulfilled.

Abrahamic covenant: "In you all the families of the earth shall be blessed" (Gen 12:3). "All the land which you see I will give to you, and to your seed always. And I will make your seed as the dust of the earth, so that if a man can count the dust of the earth, then your seed also will be counted." (Gen 12:15, 16). The covenant given to Abraham was unconditional and required no agreement or effort on Abraham's part (Gen 15).

The New Covenant (see also Hebrews 8:8):

Jer 31
31 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Jehovah).
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, declares Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah. For they shall all know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them, declares Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.

The New Covenant was also unconditional. When Hebrews was written, the Old Covenant was "growing aged is near disappearing." (Hebrews 8:13). Hebrews 12:24 declares Jesus as the mediator of the New Covenant.

All things were fulfilled in him, and through him, Israel was enabled to become "Kings and Priests".

The New Covenant sort of becomes God's pursuit of humanity - rather than the other way around. So nothing is required on our behalf. God is present with all of humanity and will wait patiently for those who don't notice, to notice - or to know him in the next life.

[Beloved Servant]

I don't see any of us as "adam".  Jesus was the LAST Adam.  

Wow Zeek,
I never heard that before.

[Zeek]

I don't see any of us as "adam".  Jesus was the LAST Adam.  

Wow Zeek,
I never heard that before.

here is an interesting article re: last adam

http://sigler.org/seed3.htm

[Beloved Servant]

No, sorry, I know Who the Last Adam is!

I was referring to your first sentence in the quote.