CHB, I started it here

[Dallas]

Hi Dallas and All,

Dallas, I agree with a lot of what you say here. I realize the knowing and not knowing is the key. How did we come to know what we know and didn't we have to change our minds, or I should say God changed our minds? Yes, all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but won't that take a realization of who we are and have been to come to this realization? Isn't that kind of a repentance of our past knowledge to recognize who Christ really is? Are you not a different person from who you were before the bowing of the knee and confessing of the tongue? Don't you think that as long as we are in this flesh we are sin? Isn't the flesh itself sin? Isn't that what David meant when he said "(Psalms 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; AND IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME.

Just think, there are thousands of people who have never heard of Christ, all those who were born before Christ walked the earth and babies who know nothing about salvation or sin. I believe there has to come a time when these people will need to learn of salvation and who Christ is in order for them to know to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is lord. In the process of this learning don't you think that they will have trials and troubles the same as you and I? Won't they have to learn just like we have? Don't you think that they will have to experience the fire of God and dying to self and sin just like we have?

I know that you believe all things have been fulfilled. I believe that we are in the process but haven't gotten to the end yet, else we would all be immortal now.  I believe that all in all is still in the future. I think some were chosen to understand now and some much later. Until all comes to this same understanding the world will be in a mess and I do not see people falling to their knees and acknowledging Christ as you say. I see the world getting worse and worse with murders, rapes, stealing, lying, idol worshipping, you name it. It will take Christ returning to straighten out this mess the world is in. Only a very few know about the salvation of all, don't you think everyone should come to this knowledge?

CHB

[Dallas]

How did we come to know what we know and didn't we have to change our minds, or I should say God changed our minds? Yes, all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but won't that take a realization of who we are and have been to come to this realization?

Yes, absolutley. It is because when Jesus died they we were fully included, what we are realizing is that because of what He did I have all things already. I didn't gain anything when I came to the knowledge of what Jesus did, because I had always had it because it was given to me at the cross. That being said I didn't benifit from the cross until I had the knowledge of it. Which came first the cross or the knowledge, the cross did. The effect of the cross became as real and full for me then as it did when I came to realize what had always been there, but with realization also came benifiting from it.

So it wasn't me coming to knowledge or repentance or choice that included me into all things, but I was included in all things at the cross, I didn't know I was included until the message entered my ears of what happened. But I was fully included even when I didn't know.

[Dallas]

Isn't that kind of a repentance of our past knowledge to recognize who Christ really is? Are you not a different person from who you were before the bowing of the knee and confessing of the tongue? Don't you think that as long as we are in this flesh we are sin? Isn't the flesh itself sin? Isn't that what David meant when he said "(Psalms 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; AND IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME.

Repentance is always connected to an agreement. When we make an agreement and say one of us goes off that path of that agreement the other one needs to return to the agreement, that is the act of repenting. It is mystical Greek theology that has taken the idea of repenting and turned it into the charasmatic ideology of personal repentance to God. It was always refering to the Jews returning to the covenant agreement with God, never for us. Repentance is not a new church concept.

The flesh is also an old covenant concept, it wash established in Genesis 17 and legalized in Levitcus. In Genesis 17 God establishes the covenant with Abraham and his decendents, and God establishes it circumsicion and says;


Genesis 17:7"I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

10"This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

   11"And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.

14"But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

This is why the Hebrew people are so focused on the flesh, it is clear that the moark in the flesh is what will include them into the pormises of God and to not have the mark in the flesh you will be excluded from the promises of God. The whole use of flesh being sinful man and flesh being the sin in us and fles being our bad behaviour is simply not biblical. Flesh as used in the bible is refering to the Hewbrew covenant with God. This later became law in Leviticus, this becomming the use of it throughout scripture.


When people refer to the flesh people are refering to adhering to the law in order to be included into the pormises of God. The works of the flesh are man trying to become righteous on his own effort, using circumsicion and the law in order to establish their own righteousness, but as Paul preached, give up dependancy on the law for entrance into the promises of God instead trust what Jesus did gets you into the promises. That's why Paul was labeled heritic by Jews, Paul and the aposltes were preaching to not adhere to the law!!

[Dallas]

Just think, there are thousands of people who have never heard of Christ, all those who were born before Christ walked the earth and babies who know nothing about salvation or sin. I believe there has to come a time when these people will need to learn of salvation and who Christ is in order for them to know to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is lord. In the process of this learning don't you think that they will have trials and troubles the same as you and I? Won't they have to learn just like we have? Don't you think that they will have to experience the fire of God and dying to self and sin just like we have

The trials and learning are self-imposed, that is us fighting the gospel, that we are fully included. When you deny that you will suffer, rather continue to suffer until you accept the truth that you are included.

Dying to oneself is a western concept that has been blown out of porpotion. Dying to oneself is as thus; Man is trying to become good and right, trying to establish themselves good enough to inherit the goodness of God because they think they need to improve who they are because who they are isn't good enough, but Jesus has made man perfect and good and completley acceptable in all ways. Dying to oneself is stopping trying to make oneself better and acknowledging that Jesus is the one who establishes me. If Jesus makes me good than nothing I do makes me good so that life of trying to make myself good dies.

[Dallas]

I know that you believe all things have been fulfilled. I believe that we are in the process but haven't gotten to the end yet, else we would all be immortal now.  I believe that all in all is still in the future. I think some were chosen to understand now and some much later. Until all comes to this same understanding the world will be in a mess and I do not see people falling to their knees and acknowledging Christ as you say. I see the world getting worse and worse with murders, rapes, stealing, lying, idol worshipping, you name it. It will take Christ returning to straighten out this mess the world is in. Only a very few know about the salvation of all, don't you think everyone should come to this knowledge?

I believe all things have been fulfilled as it concearns the old covenant. The end has come, to the old covenant, there will be no end to the new covenant. Immortal is a western concept and is not biblical. We are children of God, we exsist forever, we are forever already. God is already all in all, and just as you came to realize and continue to realize so will everybody, not because God is spreading but because God has spread.

I believe that all in all is still in the future. I think some were chosen to understand now and some much later

. For what purpose? All come into the revealing when it is proper for them to know. God is at work individualy working on the hearts of everyman and doing exactally what it takes to love them to Him, that will look and take a different amount of time for everyone, each in his own time.

Until all comes to this same understanding the world will be in a mess and I do not see people falling to their knees and acknowledging Christ as you say.

I have, you have, all the people on this one of many forums say they have..... as far as only seeing the increase of sin that is a matter of perspective. If I say to you yellow cars, now you will be more attentive to seeing yellow cars on the road you will. Because you are looking for sin you will see it, but I am looking at the good work of God and I see it. Enjoy seeing the increase of yellow cars LOL

[Zeek]

Just think, there are thousands of people who have never heard of Christ, all those who were born before Christ walked the earth and babies who know nothing about salvation or sin. I believe there has to come a time when these people will need to learn of salvation and who Christ is in order for them to know to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is lord. In the process of this learning don't you think that they will have trials and troubles the same as you and I? Won't they have to learn just like we have? Don't you think that they will have to experience the fire of God and dying to self and sin just like we have

The trials and learning are self-imposed, that is us fighting the gospel, that we are fully included. When you deny that you will suffer, rather continue to suffer until you accept the truth that you are included.

Dying to oneself is a western concept that has been blown out of porpotion. Dying to oneself is as thus; Man is trying to become good and right, trying to establish themselves good enough to inherit the goodness of God because they think they need to improve who they are because who they are isn't good enough, but Jesus has made man perfect and good and completley acceptable in all ways. Dying to oneself is stopping trying to make oneself better and acknowledging that Jesus is the one who establishes me. If Jesus makes me good than nothing I do makes me good so that life of trying to make myself good dies.

Dallas,

do you think that the first century saints were "dying to self" prior to the parousia in order to inherit the kingdom?  And if so, weren't they "working out their salvation" with fear and trembling??

[Dallas]

Dallas,

do you think that the first century saints were "dying to self" prior to the parousia in order to inherit the kingdom?  And if so, weren't they "working out their salvation" with fear and trembling??

They were trying to switch allegiance from the circuscion in the law to trust in the work of Jesus,...so yes.

Working out thier salvation, is just saying figuring things out, and with fear and trembling is refeing to it's a scary thing giving up what you have accomplished in order to trust the work of God instead.

Paul was no different from us, and explains it as such.... when you spend your life trying to establish youself standing, it's first of all a battle in your understanding to stop that and it's scary giving up what you have built in yourself to trust your standing to something else.

[Zeek]

Dallas,

do you think that the first century saints were "dying to self" prior to the parousia in order to inherit the kingdom?  And if so, weren't they "working out their salvation" with fear and trembling??

They were trying to switch allegiance from the circuscion in the law to trust in the work of Jesus,...so yes.

Working out thier salvation, is just saying figuring things out, and with fear and trembling is refeing to it's a scary thing giving up what you have accomplished in order to trust the work of God instead.

Paul was no different from us, and explains it as such.... when you spend your life trying to establish youself standing, it's first of all a battle in your understanding to stop that and it's scary giving up what you have built in yourself to trust your standing to something else.

Were those who weren't trying to switch, but still under law, and clinging to it; included too, but just didn't know it?  

and why (after the cross) were there those headed for a "horrible tempest" when they were "included"?

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

[Dallas]

Were those who weren't trying to switch, but still under law, and clinging to it; included too, but just didn't know it? 

and why (after the cross) were there those headed for a "horrible tempest" when they were "included"?

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Yes those who were switch allegiance from law to Jesus were under the law at that time. Between the cross, and His return (AD70), Even though the new church was in Jesus the Law was still in effect until the temple came down. They were living in a weird time, all the promises were fulfilled in Christ but they still were waiting for the reality of it. When the temple came down the promise of freedom became substance (reality not promise anymore.)


Now the Hebrews scripture you quoted, when taken out of context is read alone seems to be quite daming! But, we can't take it out of context...

Passage Hebrews 10:19-29 "19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

   20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

   21and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

   22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

   23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

   24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,

   25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

   27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

   28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

   29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?



Now if we read this in context....Paul is talking about the early churches new position assurance and why they  have confidence to enter the holy place, that the promise is made by God who is faithful and can be trusted and for that reason they shouldn't infight but instead support each other because they would recieve the same judgement that was coming on Jerusalem as was deserved for the people who loved the law and not Jesus. Even though they had the true knowledge that the high preist's sacrifices didn't actually deal with sin, that wouldn't save them from the same judgement that those who killed Jesus (trampled Him under foot obviously the Jews). Paul then reminds the church that the Jew who rejected the Holy Sacrifice of God would recieve a severe punishment because they rjected Him then He would reject them.

This whole speech from Paul is not a negative fear thing but a morale booster. He was encouraging them to stick together for a great judgement was coming to Jerusalem and they the church would be safe because of Jesus but the non-believer was under law and they wouldn't be saved by grace from the judgement of it.

[Zeek]

Were those who weren't trying to switch, but still under law, and clinging to it; included too, but just didn't know it? 

and why (after the cross) were there those headed for a "horrible tempest" when they were "included"?

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Yes those who were switch allegiance from law to Jesus were under the law at that time. Between the cross, and His return (AD70), Even though the new church was in Jesus the Law was still in effect until the temple came down. They were living in a weird time, all the promises were fulfilled in Christ but they still were waiting for the reality of it. When the temple came down the promise of freedom became substance (reality not promise anymore.)


Now the Hebrews scripture you quoted, when taken out of context is read alone seems to be quite daming! But, we can't take it out of context...

Passage Hebrews 10:19-29 "19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

   20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

   21and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

   22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

   23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

   24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,

   25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

   27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

   28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

   29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?



Now if we read this in context....Paul is talking about the early churches new position assurance and why they  have confidence to enter the holy place, that the promise is made by God who is faithful and can be trusted and for that reason they shouldn't infight but instead support each other because they would recieve the same judgement that was coming on Jerusalem as was deserved for the people who loved the law and not Jesus. Even though they had the true knowledge that the high preist's sacrifices didn't actually deal with sin, that wouldn't save them from the same judgement that those who killed Jesus (trampled Him under foot obviously the Jews). Paul then reminds the church that the Jew who rejected the Holy Sacrifice of God would recieve a severe punishment because they rjected Him then He would reject them.

This whole speech from Paul is not a negative fear thing but a morale booster. He was encouraging them to stick together for a great judgement was coming to Jerusalem and they the church would be safe because of Jesus but the non-believer was under law and they wouldn't be saved by grace from the judgement of it.

cool,

i was trying to figure out how u said "Paul was no different from us"

yet


you would agree that he was coming out from "under law" which we aren't;  so I was trying to figure out the the two statemets. 

[Pierac]

Dallas,

do you think that the first century saints were "dying to self" prior to the parousia in order to inherit the kingdom?  And if so, weren't they "working out their salvation" with fear and trembling??

Php 2:12  So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Dallas, you skipped the next verse!

Php 2:13  for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Seems like you work out nothing! Ever! ... for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Hey, what do I know? :dontknow:

More than you perhaps?
Paul

[Dallas]

Hey, what do I know?

More than you perhaps?
Paul

Classy Paul, hope you feel better about yourself now.

Quote from: dallas
Dallas,

do you think that the first century saints were "dying to self" prior to the parousia in order to inherit the kingdom?  And if so, weren't they "working out their salvation" with fear and trembling??


Php 2:12  So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Dallas, you skipped the next verse!

Php 2:13  for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Seems like you work out nothing! Ever! ... for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Ya, and? This is what I said????


Do you even understand the statement you are making, because there really doens't seem to be any context for your statement.

But it's plainly obvious that you want to star a fight, you want to be right and for some reason feel the need to try to prove me wrong so I will simply not engage.


You niether grasped the context of what Zeek and i were talking about, and have your own agenda...so I won't engage in your pointless argument of one.


Oh and by the way....self-righteousness does suit you.

[Tony N]

Dalas, you wrote:

Immortal is a western concept and is not biblical. We are children of God, we exsist forever, we are forever already. God is already all in all, and just as you came to realize and continue to realize so will everybody, not because God is spreading but because God has spread.

"Forever already" is an unscriptural term. If we are "forever already" why does Paul look forward to the resurrection?

You say "Immortal is not biblical." Of course it is biblical. If we were immortal already why did Paul look forward to the future day when we will put on immortality . . .

(1 Corinthians 15:53 CLV)  "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality."

(1 Corinthians 15:54 CLV)  "Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory."

No greater than Paul are you.

If the believer already has immortality, or, as you say, is "forever alive," then how come in Paul's day Christ was the only One who had "forever aliveness" or biblically, "immortality" as stated here?

(1 Timothy 6:16 CLV)  "Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!"

Also, God can't be "All in all" right now because all the things preceding that great event must take place first as Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 15:23-27.

God is not even All in the believer yet. We only have the ernest of the spirit (2 Cor.1:22). If God were All in us now we wouldn't be having this discussion and disagreement and we would already have put on incorruption and immortality.

[CHB]

How did we come to know what we know and didn't we have to change our minds, or I should say God changed our minds? Yes, all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but won't that take a realization of who we are and have been to come to this realization?

Yes, absolutley. It is because when Jesus died they we were fully included, what we are realizing is that because of what He did I have all things already. I didn't gain anything when I came to the knowledge of what Jesus did, because I had always had it because it was given to me at the cross. That being said I didn't benifit from the cross until I had the knowledge of it. Which came first the cross or the knowledge, the cross did. The effect of the cross became as real and full for me then as it did when I came to realize what had always been there, but with realization also came benifiting from it.

So it wasn't me coming to knowledge or repentance or choice that included me into all things, but I was included in all things at the cross, I didn't know I was included until the message entered my ears of what happened. But I was fully included even when I didn't know.

Wow!!! I am a little late aren't I?   :mblush: will have to go to the beginning and read all these post before I can reply to anything.

I do agree with what you said above. I do think the whole human race was included from the foundation of the world, it is just the way God brought things about that caused the blindness and the closed ears.
Paul talked about this through the Mystery that he said had been hidden since the foundation of the world. It was all in God's plan from the beginning to save the world but the world has had to learn by bits and pieces that this is true. The way I see it is, the world is still in blindness  because most think we are under the New Covenant when this is not the case at all. We do not need a Covenant. We are of the family of God not Israel but most do not see this. The Covenants and promises were ONLY for israel, not Gentiles (Rom. 9:4) (Heb. 8:8).

CHB   

[Dallas]

As far as immortality is concearned...what does immortality mean? Can't be killed, can't die??!?!?!?!

Death is put to death?!?!?! Paul taught that, "I was alive once then the law came and I died," Now that the law has no power or authority death no longer reigns. The western mind set sees immortatlity as superman impenitrible body of steel. Why isn't immortality a bigger deal as it's mentioned litterally 5 times. Simpley because it's a constant teaching about salvation from death.

Timothy 1:10 "but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"

Colossians 1:12 "giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Hopefully I don't also need to prove to you that Jesus kingdom is Light.

If the believer already has immortality, or, as you say, is "forever alive," then how come in Paul's day Christ was the only One who had "forever aliveness" or biblically, "immortality" as stated here?

Like is also said, between the cross and the temple coming down in AD70 was a weird time for man, for they had the dcomplete assurance of things in Christ yet as the temple still stod the law still had power and authority. So at the time of Pauls writing, the temple was still up and kept themout of the holy of holies. But when the temple came down all of creation changed, for the temple came down as a result of Jesus sitting on the throne and His presence filled all of creation, and since He was on the throne as Head over the new government the old one was destroyed and all it's counterparts. His rule and power came in, thus transforming the way of all things forever including causing all to realisze life eternal.

[Dallas]

Wow!!! I am a little late aren't I?    will have to go to the beginning and read all these post before I can reply to anything.

I do agree with what you said above. I do think the whole human race was included from the foundation of the world, it is just the way God brought things about that caused the blindness and the closed ears.
Paul talked about this through the Mystery that he said had been hidden since the foundation of the world. It was all in God's plan from the beginning to save the world but the world has had to learn by bits and pieces that this is true. The way I see it is, the world is still in blindness  because most think we are under the New Covenant when this is not the case at all. We do not need a Covenant. We are of the family of God not Israel but most do not see this. The Covenants and promises were ONLY for israel, not Gentiles (Rom. 9:4) (Heb. 8:8).

CHB

The blindness as true as it is does not remove them from the hand of Goid though. They are as included and recieve the completeness of that fullness now...unfourtunatley for them they don't believe and thus don't benifit and there we have a real need and Good need to preach. Not to save them, but to enlighten them.


We don't need a covenant, absolutley, that's why we have the promises. That's why we are more than conquerers, for we get it all without a fight!! It's actually a nice relief to hear you say that. We have been restored to the garden of eden, where there was no covenant ruling over love, there was just love and relationship...it was man who mucked that all up and it was God who fixed it and there are still people who want that mucked up but I am glad to see there are also some people who want it cleaned up too.

[CHB]

The works of the flesh are man trying to become righteous on his own effort, using circumsicion and the law in order to establish their own righteousness, but as Paul preached, give up dependancy on the law for entrance into the promises of God instead trust what Jesus did gets you into the promises. That's why Paul was labeled heritic by Jews, Paul and the aposltes were preaching to not adhere to the law!!

Amen to this also. I have heard Baptist preachers say, oh you can't earn your salvation, salvation is not about works. Duh! then how do they reason that people go to hell? What do they believe people go to hell for? Don't make any sense. Also, they preach, "going to Church will not save you but if you are saved you will go to Church". They preach you have to do this or that and still say it's not by works".

CHB

[Nathan]

Am enjoying your guys' insights on this thread . ..just thought I'd tell ya so.

[CHB]

Dying to oneself is as thus; Man is trying to become good and right, trying to establish themselves good enough to inherit the goodness of God because they think they need to improve who they are because who they are isn't good enough, but Jesus has made man perfect and good and completley acceptable in all ways. Dying to oneself is stopping trying to make oneself better and acknowledging that Jesus is the one who establishes me. If Jesus makes me good than nothing I do makes me good so that life of trying to make myself good dies.

I see this a little bit different. It is not I that is trying to become good or right but Christ that is working in me to make me who I am. When the self is gone, as you pointed out that "it is Jesus that makes me good" when that is accomplished then you only have Christ, self is dead. I think we are pretty much saying the same thing here.

CHB

[CHB]

The end has come, to the old covenant, there will be no end to the new covenant. Immortal is a western concept and is not biblical. We are children of God, we exsist forever, we are forever already. God is already all in all, and just as you came to realize and continue to realize so will everybody, not because God is spreading but because God has spread.

I believe you are right, the end has come to the Old Covenant, there are people who still keep it though because they don't understand that it has come to an end.

Why do you think there will be no end to the New Covenant? The New Covenant has a few rules and regulations associated with it, such as baptism, keeping of the Lord's Supper, faith was required. You would think there would be no need for it. A Covenant is an agreement between two parties to do this or that, will we need this when we become spirit beings?

CHB

[Beloved Servant]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxMnr0pM78U

[Zeek]

I believe you are right, the end has come to the Old Covenant, there are people who still keep it though because they don't understand that it has come to an end.

CHB

So I take it you don't see the lake of fire as the "means to the end of the old covenant (death of death  2Co 3:7)" since you believe believers go through the lof today?  


and if the "law worketh wrath", why would a believer or non believer have the "wrath of God abide on him/her" if the "old covenant/law" has been done away with? 

[CHB]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxMnr0pM78U

Hey, good song.  :thumbsup:

CHB

[CHB]

I believe you are right, the end has come to the Old Covenant, there are people who still keep it though because they don't understand that it has come to an end.

CHB

[quote author=Zeek[
So I take it you don't see the lake of fire as the "means to the end of the old covenant (death of death  2Co 3:7)" since you believe believers go through the lof today?

At this time, I believe we go through the lof and second death. I think when we get to the place that Paul was in his walk then we have gone through the lof and second death.  I say "at this time" because I have changed my mind about things before.

and if the "law worketh wrath", why would a believer or non believer have the "wrath of God abide on him/her" if the "old covenant/law" has been done away with? 

Don't really know what you are asking here Zeek. What do you mean by "the wrath of God"? I don't remember where I said any thing about the wrath of God abiding on anyone. Show me what you are referring to.

CHB

[Beloved Servant]

Yeah, I missed that too, CHB.