Question regarding Lake of Fire

[IceMan84]

Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

[WhiteWings]

^KJVMar 9:48-50 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

[CHB]

Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

There are different ideas on this but my personal opinion is, the lake of fire is a learning experience that brings us to the point of denying ourselves, that is the death of Adam in us. I believe some will experience this in this life and others will later. The lake of fire and the second death are connected. As far as I understand now, the second death is being dead to sin and being dead in Christ. Paul said he was "dead but yet lived but yet not I, but Christ lives in me". I believe Paul experienced the second death and the lake of fire.

It seems to me that all will come to the point of where Paul was in his understanding, to do this it would seem that there will come a time when all will be taught and learn what Paul understood. it says in Jer. 31:34 that "for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them". You would think that this isn't so in this day and age and that there will come a time when the whole earth will be taught the truth.  I do believe this learning experience that can cause a weeping and gnashing of teeth, is the lake of fire. Just my understanding at this time.

CHB 

[SQ]

Do you believe that all sinners (i.e. everyone) will have to pass through the Lake of Fire, or only those who have not accepted Christ on this side of the grave? I have heard proponents of UR say conflicting things on this, so I just wanted to hear your all's thoughts on it.

There are different ideas on this but my personal opinion is, the lake of fire is a learning experience that brings us to the point of denying ourselves, that is the death of Adam in us. I believe some will experience this in this life and others will later. The lake of fire and the second death are connected. As far as I understand now, the second death is being dead to sin and being dead in Christ. Paul said he was "dead but yet lived but yet not I, but Christ lives in me". I believe Paul experienced the second death and the lake of fire.

It seems to me that all will come to the point of where Paul was in his understanding, to do this it would seem that there will come a time when all will be taught and learn what Paul understood. it says in Jer. 31:34 that "for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them". You would think that this isn't so in this day and age and that there will come a time when the whole earth will be taught the truth.  I do believe this learning experience that can cause a weeping and gnashing of teeth, is the lake of fire. Just my understanding at this time.

CHB  

This is how I understand it also.

[Dallas]

lake of fire is a learning experience

Hey CHB;

Now I understand this is a very commmon UR belief, how does it walk out in scripture though? You make congeture but without any type of biblical concept.

Is this more of just what you see from where you are at, or do you have bible support?

[CHB]

Hi Dallas,

Well, I could have looked up a lot of verses to go with what I wrote but at the time I didn't have much time so I just wrote it the way I saw it.

Tell me how you see this?

CHB

[Dallas]

The lake of Fire is again as I always say concearning the Hebrew people.

Right from Deuteronomy language was started explaining that God was going to judge Israel with fire and they would be ultimatley destroyed by fire, them and the religous system they had.

They had a system that if you do good you live and if you do bad you die. The lake of fire IS the second death, the removing of this system. It is the final plunge of fire judgement that brought the end to the religous system that brings death.

The result of Judeaism being removed, their temple and holy city, removed cause in effect the inability to gain righeousness through the law thus eliminating the ability to die.

For I was alive once then the law came and I died- Paul, Romans.

Now that the people and the law are dead so is death, for where there is no law there can be no transgression. Sin was delt with with Jesus' sacrifice and through the judgement of fire, the lake of fire delt with the structure and system.

[CHB]

The lake of Fire is again as I always say concearning the Hebrew people.

I would agree with you except for one thing. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. I know, he went to the Jew first but turned to the Gentile. In (1Cor. 3:13) we find Paul speaking of every man's works being tried by fire. This is a verse I believe that is connected to the Lake of Fire. I do believe this is New Covenant teaching here though.

Right from Deuteronomy language was started explaining that God was going to judge Israel with fire and they would be ultimatley destroyed by fire, them and the religous system they had.

They had a system that if you do good you live and if you do bad you die. The lake of fire IS the second death, the removing of this system. It is the final plunge of fire judgement that brought the end to the religous system that brings death.

I agree with this.

The result of Judeaism being removed, their temple and holy city, removed cause in effect the inability to gain righeousness through the law thus eliminating the ability to die.

For I was alive once then the law came and I died- Paul, Romans.

Yes, Paul is speaking of being spiritually dead to sin and law. As I said, "everyone will eventually come to this point.

Now that the people and the law are dead so is death, for where there is no law there can be no transgression. Sin was delt with with Jesus' sacrifice and through the judgement of fire, the lake of fire delt with the structure and system.

Although sin and law was dealt with, we still have sin and law in the world today. People still keep the old laws of Moses and as long as we are flesh sin will be in the world.  Isn't this a progressive work anyway? I don't think God is finished with us yet, else we would all be immortal.

CHB

[Dallas]

Yes, Paul is speaking of being spiritually dead to sin and law. As I said, "everyone will eventually come to this point.

Because this was an actual event that happened it's not a spiritual teaching, but historical. Yes it's a good church teaching, but not in the sense of continuing but in the understanding that because it happened things have changed. We don't and no one else will go through it, it happened. As a result of it happening things will change. People won't continue to go through the lake of fire to learn, but because the lake of fire happened people are going to change.

Although sin and law was dealt with, we still have sin and law in the world today. People still keep the old laws of Moses and as long as we are flesh sin will be in the world.  Isn't this a progressive work anyway? I don't think God is finished with us yet, else we would all be immortal.

Elvis is dead, yet people still claim to see him alive, but we know that is people who aren't willing to acknowledge the truth. But people still listen to his music, but that doesn't mean he is still alive. Just because people still try to live by the law doesn't mean it has power, it's just people holding onto a dead singer.

Sin is only imputed where there is a law, as Paul wrote Even though there was death in the world between Adam and Moses sin was never attributed to them because there was no law telling of it. Just as there is no law telling us, I would like to know how you know there is sin in the world? As far as flesh, the body of flesh has been removed, no one is anylonger in the flesh, (if you want start a thread and I'll show what the flesh is concearning, it will be completly shocking, you will never read the bible the same way.)

God isn't Finished with us yet....as far as sin is concearned YES HE IS. Now we can start living salvation....not going to heaven, but being included into the things of God and be included in what He's doing and living in complete joy,peace and righteousness.

[Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7]

He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it"

By John Preston Eby, The Lake Of Fire pg. 13

[Dallas]

a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.

it actually doesnt even say lake, just says devine burning

[Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7]

I "think" his writings are geared towards the old King James Diehards. That is why he states it thus

[jabcat]

Although sin and law was dealt with, we still have sin and law in the world today. People still keep the old laws of Moses and as long as we are flesh sin will be in the world.  Isn't this a progressive work anyway? I don't think God is finished with us yet, else we would all be immortal.

Even though Paul didn't keep the old Laws of Moses, understanding that salvation was a gift by grace through faith (given by God) - he still was looking forward to being delivered from the sin of his flesh.  He spoke of "the sin dwelling in me", "the law of sin and death" working in him; warned that we should not "sin so that grace may abound", and discussed willfully sinning.  He said Jesus would deliver him from the sinfulness that still worked within him.

I do agree we can live victoriously by realizing that despite the weaknesses of the flesh, God's grace is stronger.  He forgives, forgets, and provides the power to overcome.  He has sealed the believer with the Holy Spirit of promise and is the Beginner and Completer of our faith.  Paul said, "if I do the things I don't want to do, then it is no longer I that do them, but the sin that dwells in me".  I ponder over that statement.   He had experienced the new birth - old things were passing away and all things becoming new.  Perhaps he was going through the "lake of fire" while he lived as a believer, to not then be hurt of the second death - as opposed to unbelievers who are yet to be brought to the place of kneeling and confessing.  Much to consider.

P.S.  Just read/re-read your first post in this thread C - seems like we're kind of hitting on some of the same points - again.  :wink1:

[jabcat]

I "think" his writings are geared towards the old King James Diehards. That is why he states it thus

J. Preston does have a rather interesting writing style.   :bigGrin:   Whether it matters or not, he's an older gentleman, s/w from the "old school".  Anyway, I did some checking, and the word 'limnEn' is in the greek (Greek Interlinear), which means lake or pond - if you're talking about the Rev. 19:20 passage.  The Christian Bible (extremely literal to the Koine Greek) translates the second part of that verse as "...these two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire that burns with Sulphur [to be destroyed in the Second Death].

Interesting note that Tony (White Wings) has pointed out to me about the Christian Bible - notice the capitalization of Lake of Fire and Sulphur.  We've both wondered if that indicates Deity, i.e., proper "names".  But then I see that Second Death is also capitalized, so I'm not sure then what that indicates.   :scratchhead: 

Tony?

[WhiteWings]

Interesting note that Tony (White Wings) has pointed out to me about the Christian Bible - notice the capitalization of Lake of Fire and Sulphur.  We've both wondered if that indicates Deity, i.e., proper "names".  But then I see that Second Death is also capitalized, so I'm not sure then what that indicates.   :scratchhead: 

Tony?

My specialization is shallow ponds  :winkgrin:

I got two answers for you.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7579.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6864.msg76392#msg76392

The above perhaps gives some insight in what the lake is.
But why Second Death is capitalized....?
God has two sides.
He the God of love. But also of wrath. => first overcomes second.
So perhaps that death is also divine but overcome by good? => Yes I know God is not the God of the dead...
Revelation is the grand finale of Fathers Master Plan. So He's very busy doing things. All divine things with divine (temp) consequences.
And what exactly is 2nd death? Father being actively or passively involved?

[CHB]

Although sin and law was dealt with, we still have sin and law in the world today. People still keep the old laws of Moses and as long as we are flesh sin will be in the world.  Isn't this a progressive work anyway? I don't think God is finished with us yet, else we would all be immortal.

Even though Paul didn't keep the old Laws of Moses, understanding that salvation was a gift by grace through faith (given by God) - he still was looking forward to being delivered from the sin of his flesh.  He spoke of "the sin dwelling in me", "the law of sin and death" working in him; warned that we should not "sin so that grace may abound", and discussed willfully sinning.  He said Jesus would deliver him from the sinfulness that still worked within him.

I do agree we can live victoriously by realizing that despite the weaknesses of the flesh, God's grace is stronger.  He forgives, forgets, and provides the power to overcome.  He has sealed the believer with the Holy Spirit of promise and is the Beginner and Completer of our faith.  Paul said, "if I do the things I don't want to do, then it is no longer I that do them, but the sin that dwells in me".  I ponder over that statement.   He had experienced the new birth - old things were passing away and all things becoming new.  Perhaps he was going through the "lake of fire" while he lived as a believer, to not then be hurt of the second death - as opposed to unbelievers who are yet to be brought to the place of kneeling and confessing.  Much to consider.

P.S.  Just read/re-read your first post in this thread C - seems like we're kind of hitting on some of the same points - again.  :wink1:

Hi jabcat,

Yes, you said it perfectly. I was going to comment on this very thing about Paul having gone through the fire and second death and will not be hurt nor will it have any power over him. I think the whole world will have to come to this point. Else why the bowing of the knee or confessing of the tongue? If no one sins or all is finished why the need to confess?

CHB

[Dallas]

Else why the bowing of the knee or confessing of the tongue? If no one sins or all is finished why the need to confess?

There is a difference between the believer and the non-believer, that's why. Our disagreement is you seem to think that something happens to a person when they confess that some kind of saving power comes over them. That simply isn't true.

The only thing that happens is when someone doesn't acknowledge the truth they don't live in it.... If I believe it's going to rain I dress as if it's going to rain and if I don't think it's going to rain I dress as if it isn't.

God has done everything, settled everything in Christ on the cross, if I don't believe it I will live as if it isn't all completed, If I do acknowledge the truth of it I will live to that truth and then the benifits of believing come through.


There are multitudes who don't believe what God has done in Jesus, they aren't benifiting from it, but they will and between now and the they will still have all the same things from God as when they come to realize the truth.

[Dallas]

Because our understanding of what sin is we differ on what it's effects are, af far as I know you see sin as the bad things people do right?

Where I believe the bible shows us that bad behavior is the sign that sin is in us. When a person murders, that killing they did wasn't sin, but it was the sign the person has sin.

[Nathan]

What is it those who are bowing their knees are to be confessing?  They're not confessing their sin, they are confessing Jesus is Lord.  What I see happening is connected to the day of the Sabbath where the rules have all changed.  In the days leading up to the Sabbath, men were to gather their daily manna on their own according to the size of their family, according to the maturity of their relationship in Christ.  On the sixth day, they didn't have to work twice as hard to get a double portion.  There was simply twice as much available to them.  It was all in preparation for the Sabbath.

On the Sabbath the rules are all the opposite than they were for every day leading up to the Sabbath.  There is no gathering, there is no labor, there is only Rest.  It's all a spiritual principle in these matters.  We are now entering into the "realm" of the Sabbath and the rules have changed from achieving knowledge about God through our laboring minds, into simply receiving revelation from God through submitted minds.

Every bowed knee is not coming by brute force, it's coming by divine revelation.  Jesus is being revealed, not an image of him the church immulates, but the true nature of Jesus is being revealed and people are dropping to their knees like ripe fruit from a tree.  They are seeing the truth of the nature of Jesus and their responses are ones of humility and unity.  That's the confession part, the confession is speaking out that which is truth in spirit is becoming truth in the flesh.  The spirit and flesh are becoming one.

Again, just my perspective is all.

[Beloved Servant]

Amen, God is doing away with all mixture of the Word.

1 John 2: 27; And the anointing which you obtained from Him is remaining in you, and you have no need that anyone may be teaching you, but as His anointing is teaching you concerning all, and is true, and is no lie, according as it teaches you also, remain in Him.

The soul is being silenced to the truth of His Spirit in His Image.

The anointing within the most Holy Place can not leave you.

[Nathan]

Absolutely agree . . .nothing can separate the heart (holy of holies) of God from us.

[Dallas]

nothing can separate the heart (holy of holies) of God from us

.

Absolutley, that is true for every single person right now, everyone has that....not everyone believes that. There won't be a day that includes someone new for the spirit of God has been poured out on all mankind Acts2.

But everyday people are waking up to that truth.

[CHB]

Hi Dallas and All,

Dallas, I agree with a lot of what you say here. I realize the knowing and not knowing is the key. How did we come to know what we know and didn't we have to change our minds, or I should say God changed our minds? Yes, all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but won't that take a realization of who we are and have been to come to this realization? Isn't that kind of a repentance of our past knowledge to recognize who Christ really is? Are you not a different person from who you were before the bowing of the knee and confessing of the tongue? Don't you think that as long as we are in this flesh we are sin? Isn't the flesh itself sin? Isn't that what David meant when he said "(Psalms 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; AND IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME.

Just think, there are thousands of people who have never heard of Christ, all those who were born before Christ walked the earth and babies who know nothing about salvation or sin. I believe there has to come a time when these people will need to learn of salvation and who Christ is in order for them to know to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is lord. In the process of this learning don't you think that they will have trials and troubles the same as you and I? Won't they have to learn just like we have? Don't you think that they will have to experience the fire of God and dying to self and sin just like we have?

I know that you believe all things have been fulfilled. I believe that we are in the process but haven't gotten to the end yet, else we would all be immortal now.  I believe that all in all is still in the future. I think some were chosen to understand now and some much later. Until all comes to this same understanding the world will be in a mess and I do not see people falling to their knees and acknowledging Christ as you say. I see the world getting worse and worse with murders, rapes, stealing, lying, idol worshipping, you name it. It will take Christ returning to straighten out this mess the world is in. Only a very few know about the salvation of all, don't you think everyone should come to this knowledge?

CHB

[Nathan]

For me bro, that is what is happening now.  Christ has been, is and will continue to come back.  He's approaching all on an individual basis.  He came to Paul, he came to John, he's come to me, he's come to you.  It's been just as God proclaimed it.  In Genesis 6 where he said he wouldn't strive with many any longer but that his years would be 120.  We assume those are by our measurement.  But God's only measurement is his Son.  When we learn who his Son is in terms of days and years, we understand the proclamations given. 

In this case, Jesus is the day . . .great, but that doesn't help the equasion.  Okay, he is the Sabbath  . . now we're getting closer but Jesus is more than just he Sabbath, he's the Sabbath of Sabbaths.  That was what he came to proclaim.  This is the favorable year of the Lord.  That is the year of the Sabbath.  It comes every 50 years.  After 7 Sabbath years comes the year of jubilee.  Jesus "is" the Jubilee.

Now, we're getting somewhere.  Using that in the equasion, taking the 120 years God proclaimed, times 50, the year of Jubilee, and strangely enough, the sum is 6000.  Which is six days.  Then it starts to fall into place.  What causes man to wrestle with God in the first place?  Is it not the "laboring" mind?  God labored for six days, then rested on the Sabbath.  Man labored with kingdom principles for 6000 years, but we are entering into the Sabbath year where these kingdom principles are now being revealed.

No longer are we being required to spend hours and hours with our noses in concordances and translations.  Now, all that's required is relationship with the Son. When we enter into a simple relationship with the Son, the Father then reveals the mysteries directly to us and revelation begins to manifest in us and through us.  As we see his kingdom come, we speak what we see and release that which is in the unseen realm, to this realm where beliefs are built on what is seen.  Which isn't the actual intent God has in mind.  My belief is to be built on faith, not proof of Script or sight.  Proof is not faith.

Nonetheless, we can enter into the kingdom and these things will begin becoming real and relevant to us as we become more willing to receive more stuff we just can't fully understand.  UR is just the tip of the ice burg here.  There's a whole realm yet to be experienced by those who are willing to rely on what can't be seen and let go of what actually got them here.  Logically, one could easily argue this kind of thought, but it's not really a debatable issue.  It's like salvation or anything else.  We can debate whether or not it's real, or fake, but it doesn't change the truth of what it is either way.

[Dallas]

Hi Dallas and All,

Dallas, I agree with a lot of what you say here. I realize the knowing and not knowing is the key. How did we come to know what we know and didn't we have to change our minds, or I should say God changed our minds? Yes, all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but won't that take a realization of who we are and have been to come to this realization? Isn't that kind of a repentance of our past knowledge to recognize who Christ really is? Are you not a different person from who you were before the bowing of the knee and confessing of the tongue? Don't you think that as long as we are in this flesh we are sin? Isn't the flesh itself sin? Isn't that what David meant when he said "(Psalms 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; AND IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME.

Just think, there are thousands of people who have never heard of Christ, all those who were born before Christ walked the earth and babies who know nothing about salvation or sin. I believe there has to come a time when these people will need to learn of salvation and who Christ is in order for them to know to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is lord. In the process of this learning don't you think that they will have trials and troubles the same as you and I? Won't they have to learn just like we have? Don't you think that they will have to experience the fire of God and dying to self and sin just like we have?

I know that you believe all things have been fulfilled. I believe that we are in the process but haven't gotten to the end yet, else we would all be immortal now.  I believe that all in all is still in the future. I think some were chosen to understand now and some much later. Until all comes to this same understanding the world will be in a mess and I do not see people falling to their knees and acknowledging Christ as you say. I see the world getting worse and worse with murders, rapes, stealing, lying, idol worshipping, you name it. It will take Christ returning to straighten out this mess the world is in. Only a very few know about the salvation of all, don't you think everyone should come to this knowledge?

CHB

Hello; I love this, this to me is just awesome, I love talking to you because you are quite real and open and not argumentative. Love you CHB.


I want to discuss this, I will start a new thread so we don't hijack.