Physical punishment?

[IceMan84]

Just something I've been pondering over lately...do you think any punishment, or correction, in the afterlife will be physical (as in actual physical pain) or will it all be spiritual / mental? I tend to think that it will all be spiritual in nature and meant solely for the purpose of healing. I really don't see why there would be any point to imposing physical pain on someone.

[SQ]

 
I tend to think it would be spiritual since we are not in the fleshly bodies. Good question by the way. :thumbsup:

[IceMan84]

 
I tend to think it would be spiritual since we are not in the fleshly bodies. Good question by the way. :thumbsup:

I agree; thanks for your reply :Sparkletooth:

[Pierac]

1Pe 4:19  Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.  :thumbsup:

[CHB]

I think it is spiritual also.  God wouldn't literally burn people.

I do think that all of our punishment is while we are in the flesh.

CHB

[Dallas]

I believe that there is and will never be any punishment, in fact I think the idea is quite disgusting to think that God would punish us, and that idea is people trying to deal with old eternal punishment doctrines in light of inclusion.

[SQ]

I think it is spiritual also.  God wouldn't literally burn people.

I do think that all of our punishment is while we are in the flesh.

CHB

I agree there is so many things going on in our spiritual life, that to suffer in the flesh would be easy compared to spiritual anguish.
We are learning things of the spirit while we are alive in the flesh.
The flesh returns to dust and never to be again is how I see it at this time.
We are in the lake of fire now.

[Nathan]

It really is a controversial issue with so many who've just accepted the fact that God's love is conditional, based on your acceptance and following actions.  If you take away the fear of punishment, then what else is left to use as intimidation to bring people to the cross??  It's like it never dawned on them that we're drawn in love, not dragged by law.

But even now in this realm, I don't see it as punishment.  For us to be punished by God in any dimension, whether here and now, or after we pass on, is taking away from the power of the cross.  Jesus said it is finished.  The price is paid.  If the price was paid in the flesh, then why would we continually be punished in the flesh?

However, if you reworded that a bit in that there are consequences for the decisions I make, not punishment, but consequences, then I could see how that would fit into place.  Sin simply means to miss the mark.  Missing the mark has it's consequences, but it doesn't affect the final destination.  I may be spiritually blind due to inner strongholds, but that only affects "this" realm because it's only in "this" realm that my mind operates in.  It's only in "this" realm that this wrestling between my head and my heart manifest.

And for me, this is why we're called to walk in the spirit.  Because spirit has dominion over flesh.  The realm I can't see with my mind is the realm my heart is connected with.  It's not the evidence of his voice we hear, it's the sound.  Faith is not walking according to proof, it's walking according to the unseen. 

God is a consuming fire that your eyes can't see.  But it's that same fire that purifies you and frees you from your mind so you "can" enter into the spirit.  Oh that God would manifest his truth to the traditional church and free the people from the bondages of their own minds.

[Yab Yum]

I believe that there is and will never be any punishment, in fact I think the idea is quite disgusting to think that God would punish us, and that idea is people trying to deal with old eternal punishment doctrines in light of inclusion.

If it's a free pass for everyone, why not do whatever we want no matter how depraved?

(http://thepeoplescube.com/red/richedit/upload/2ka1d84844fe.jpg)

[Nathan]

Ah, that's a common concern.  But here's what is often missed.  That kind of logic is not the spirit leading us, it's our minds trying to reason with what seems illogical.  The spirit only draws us closer, makes us hungrier and as we yield to it, the spirit makes things clearer.  This isn't about trying to get away with doing what "I' want.  It's about yielding to what "he" wants.  No longer is the focus on me or my actions.  It's not what I'm doing, it's what He's "done".  What do I care whether evil people get what they deserve anyway?  Am I the one to judge them?  I'm just elated that there truly is no condemnation for those who've entered into Christ Jesus!  That applies to both sides, to those of us who find ourselves condemning others, and to those of us who deserve condemnation.  When Christ shows up in our lives, he eliminates ALL condemnation in us.

Does not Scripture say that God is in us, giving us the desire both to will and to do his good pleasure?

All this is doing is, it's letting go of the control of our minds.  It increases my desire to let him lead.  I'm finding the more I pursue Christ, the less I'm concerned about my own weaknesses and failures because the struggle is becoming less and less and I grow deeper and deeper in him.  It's liberating . . .it's not just life, but it's life "abundantly".  It's the "free indeed" that he speaks of.  It's finding that rest from trying wearily to accomodate rules and regulations.  It is the water of life.

[Beloved Servant]

The free pass, Yam Yum, is the Cross of Christ, that forgives even you during the weakest moments of your life.


Who are we to judge others?
Who are we to wish ill on another?
Does the clay make the potter or the potter use the clay for whatever He wishes?


Do the Scriptures not say that God rose up Pharaoh so that His Name may be proclaimed in all the earth (Exodus 9:16).

[Beloved Servant]

Amen Nathan,
No more duality.
Is it midnight?
Matthew 25:6

[Yab Yum]

Ah, that's a common concern.  But here's what is often missed.  That kind of logic is not the spirit leading us, it's our minds trying to reason with what seems illogical.  The spirit only draws us closer, makes us hungrier and as we yield to it, the spirit makes things clearer.  This isn't about trying to get away with doing what "I' want.  It's about yielding to what "he" wants.  No longer is the focus on me or my actions.  It's not what I'm doing, it's what He's "done".  What do I care whether evil people get what they deserve anyway?  Am I the one to judge them?  I'm just elated that there truly is no condemnation for those who've entered into Christ Jesus!  That applies to both sides, to those of us who find ourselves condemning others, and to those of us who deserve condemnation.  When Christ shows up in our lives, he eliminates ALL condemnation in us.

Does not Scripture say that God is in us, giving us the desire both to will and to do his good pleasure?

All this is doing is, it's letting go of the control of our minds.  It increases my desire to let him lead.  I'm finding the more I pursue Christ, the less I'm concerned about my own weaknesses and failures because the struggle is becoming less and less and I grow deeper and deeper in him.  It's liberating . . .it's not just life, but it's life "abundantly".  It's the "free indeed" that he speaks of.  It's finding that rest from trying wearily to accomodate rules and regulations.  It is the water of life.

Does it take more time for some than for others? And if it does, is it appropriate to speak of some form of "correction"?

[Yab Yum]

The free pass, Yam Yum, is the Cross of Christ, that forgives even you during the weakest moments of your life.


Who are we to judge others?
Who are we to wish ill on another?
Does the clay make the potter or the potter use the clay for whatever He wishes?


Do the Scriptures not say that God rose up Pharaoh so that His Name may be proclaimed in all the earth (Exodus 9:16).

That's nice for me. But for, say, Joseph Mengele, who, let's speculate, is not yet "in Christ", how does that play out? I use the word "punish" to describe what is going to occur to such an individual. The fact that, in order to be just, such "punishment" is finite, is what I understand to be UR. But now I'm hearing that, no, UR doesn't really even accept "punish", since all "punishment" whatsoever is unjust. A true, loving Father who loves truly, would never really "punish". Is this more or less correct?

[Beloved Servant]

Perhaps knowing that Joseph's reward may not be as great as another's would satiate Adam's nature?

[Yab Yum]

Perhaps knowing that Joseph's reward may not be as great as another's would satiate Adam's nature?

Oh no the eventual reward I think can be the same. All I'm wondering about is whether there is uniform opinion (and why) among URs as to the manner and time of getting there.

My brother Dallas objects to the idea that God ever "punishes" or that such "punishment" could ever be just. What I'm curious about is whether that opinion is in fact a necessary part of UR.

[Nathan]

The only reason it would take more time in one than another is due to the thickness of the veil . . .being doctrine, philosophy, beliefs and so forth.  Truth coming in is the same speed to all.  But what causes the variance in reception is the condition of the receivers.

Correction comes to and dare I say "through" the spiritually immature.  It's yet another controversial area because many feel it's their right almost, to straigten another person out.  We saw Peter confront Paul.  We saw Paul instruct Timothy and also in his letters to places like Corinth about the removal of a person from the flock due to their blatant sinful ways.  But "if" that was the rule and not the exception, then can anyone explain why Jesus never pulled Judas aside and "straighten" him out in how to handle money?  Jesus knew he was a cheat from the beginning . .and not only did he not correct him personally, he actually turned the treasury over to him . . just the opposite of what any "faithful steward" of such things would consider.

But truth is, when you boil it all down, it's a control issue.  What Paul told to the church of Corinth was not only necessary, but also spiritually sound in principle.  But what we never see getting addressed on issues like this is the fact that Paul was literally dealing with spiritual infants in the church.  They HAD to be spoon fed because they were the first church EVER, outside of the old covenant things.  And as Timothy was Paul's spiritual Son . .those two things are extremely important.  

The church is now 2000 years old.  She should be at the point of maturity where walking in the spirit is the predominant identity.  And yet it's not anywhere near it.  She's still concerned about trying to convince the world their dead or dying instead of projecting light and life.  She's still arguing over literal writings rather than living in spiritual principles.  Vision comes through intimacy with Christ.  Revelation matures us into a higher level of relationship.  Not a higher level above another person, but a higher level of freedom.  Spiritual maturity manifests through humility.  

Paul spoke about the fact that we have a lot of boy-teachers but not many fathers.  Everybody sees themselves above everybody else with the right to bring correction to any who see things differently.  Yet no one knows what it means to actually Father an individual because their to busy trying to bring correction to the masses.  

You ever notice how many times Jesus would instruct those closest to him at any given time, when they experienced something deeply profound and miraculous to not tell anyone else what they saw?  It has nothing to do with his attempt to keep the crowds under control . . .it has everything to do with the fact that we all have to "experience" him for ourselves.  Not everyone is going to be able to see the transfiguration of the true form of the Word.  And those that did see it can't explain it to those who can't with any great success.  

Seeing the Word in it's glorified state requires personal intimacy.  I WANT to tell the world, but until the world is looking for intimacy, the bedroom secrets remain hidden from them.

[jabcat]

I believe a good earthly father, to the best of his ability, punishes fairly, justly, and with the end result of correction in mind - not just punishment for the sake of punishment, or releasing his anger, etc.  An earthly father "knows how to give good gifts - how much more your Heavenly Father...?"  Loving discipline, though it may hurt for a moment, is a good gift.  We are told to not despise discipline from God, that it's His treatment (and regard) for us as a son.

Torment (basanos) in the scriptures means "testing for purity, as with a touchstone" - rubbing touchstones together implies friction, perhaps even the rubbing off of sharp edges.  IMO, standing before the Father, in His direct presence, unprepared, will feel like torment - even if for a "brief time", whatever that may be.  I believe it will be for as long as it takes for us to come to the place of brokenness before Him.  We either do that now or later - our wills being shaped to His.  But I do believe it is spiritual, as in complete, full realization of what one has missed, how they've hurt and failed Him, and the ensuing remorse, guilt, and emotional consequential pain.  We do reap what we sow, God will not be mocked - but He does forgive and restore.

Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.

Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.

Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.

Lamentations 3:31-32  For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us

[jabcat]

J. Preston Eby compares it to a prostitute being in a church service, in which the Spirit is moving in a mighty way, convicting, drawing men to Him.  Unless the prostitute is given the faith to believe and repent, she will likely be in torment and want to run from the building as fast as she can to escape the fire of conviction.   :2c:

[Beloved Servant]

Perhaps knowing that Joseph's reward may not be as great as another's would satiate Adam's nature?

Oh no the eventual reward I think can be the same. All I'm wondering about is whether there is uniform opinion (and why) among URs as to the manner and time of getting there.

My brother Dallas objects to the idea that God ever "punishes" or that such "punishment" could ever be just. What I'm curious about is whether that opinion is in fact a necessary part of UR.

There is only one Way to the Father and that is through His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Period.

"UR" is not an organized religion with doctrines and creeds, or appointed leaders and elders.
"It" is just a simple truth that God desires that no one will perish.
And what God wants, God gets.

[Nathan]

Well said!  I gotta learn to do that . . .say it well without writing a book to do it.

[jabcat]

Amen, BeServ.  It will all, either in this life, or the next age, only be through Jesus.  Thus every knee bowing, every tongue confessing Jesus is Master.  I'll reference Mr. Eby again, I believe he sees it as God creating the conditions for one to come to that place.  There is a group now, the ecclesia, saved in this lifetime, that won't be hurt of the 2nd death.  As I understand it, they have died to self in this lifetime through the grace and calling of Jesus Christ, the rest will do it later - saved as by fire, having taken the broad road of destruction - but still only of and through Jesus Messiah.   :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

Just curious . . .what's the general consesus to the principle "dying to self". 

[jabcat]

I personally just see it as the new spiritual birth beginning the "old things passing away, all things becoming new"...that He leads us then into a daily walk of spiritual growth, learned obedience, always empowered by His Spirit - nothing we can do of ourselves - His works in us once the jouney has begun.  Looking to Him and overcoming as He has begun (Author) and is completing (Finisher) our faith.  (Hebrews 12:2)

Even though I'm reborn, I don't expect "perfection" until I've put on immortality, so I feel pretty certain I'll still have some filthy rags that will need to be burned up and destroyed.

I know there are different views on this, but this is mine.   :bigGrin:

[Beloved Servant]

Self is dead in Christ so that is not I that live but Christ in me.
He completely covers our five senses.
The marriage supper makes us One in Him.
It is not Him controlling our mind but — ONE NEW MIND — dwelling in unity and oneness as the GOD-MAN.
For when we see Him we shall be like Him.
The perfect man — The Image of God!