Evangelical Cult

[MyOwnSheep]

Whether Brother willieH is offended or not is not the concern of this post.
The point is, however, is that YOU perceive it so and yet carry on.

Do you think the topic should be censored?  I don't see much freedom in that.  I'm not one to be easilly bullied and yes I do wish to carry on discussing the interesting topic which Warthog raised.  I do so with the knowledge that anyone offended need not participate and also in full assurance that I have spoken with respect and even conceded to Willie his point that the term with which he has a problem can be and has been misused in christian circles.

[Beloved Servant]

Censored? Umm...I don't even understand the question seeing that freedom comes from the Spirit of Christ within expressing His life through us.
Easily bullied? Well, I shall pay the tithe as to not offend and say that you seem like a very learned individual, well able to speak his own mind and stand up for what he thinks is right. Amen.
Ahhh — Christian circles — forever moving anywhere but — UP!

[Molly]

The question of whether methods and behaviors employed throughout modern Churchianity follow negative and damaging patterns associated with common understandings of Psychological Manipulation and control as employed by those organizations which share the label of cult even outside Christian culture and within mainstream culture is worthy of examination and discussion.

Interesting discussion--cult does have a definition which I can tell you understand very well.  Interesting what WH said, also, because we can easily be led into using the term as a derogatory term for groups of people we want others to reject--such as, those gun toting 'rednecks' [turns out the rednecks were American heroes, but that's another story].

There IS such a thing as a cult.  Like pornography, I might not be able to precisely define it, but I know it when I see it [to quote the Judge].  And, when you come down to it, just about any organized, named religion or group would probably qualify because they all have do's and don't's, and right and wrong, and usually end up with a leader who wants to run the show...

But--

  2 Corinthians 3:17
"... where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



And, sooner or later, that's where he is taking us all.

[jabcat]

Thanks Molly and MOS for moving this thread back on topic.  That's just a itty-bitty movement of 'up'.   :bigGrin:

Maybe we can just acknowledge there are varying meanings to words, and we really should be careful with what spirit and attitude we use them.  Although I personally don't believe necessarily that any group that believes in ET is what I consider a true 'cult' (I probably see it in a much narrower definition), what else helpful can we glean from discussing the OP further?  Thanks, James.

[MyOwnSheep]

Thank you Molly,

:thumbsup:  Now that is an awsome thought of epic scale and a most excellent verse.  Won't it be great when we're all at peace with that liberty?  What is 2 Timothy 1:7 in the Christian Bible Translation you were teaching about in another thread?

In Young's Literal it's 'For God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.'


What's OP?

[jabcat]

original/opening post - which is what it appears you're trying to get back to

[jabcat]

Mol doesn't have her translation (yet), so I'll post it -

For the Spirit that God has given us, isn't one of cowardice, but one of power, love, and sensibility.

[MyOwnSheep]

Mol doesn't have her translation (yet), so I'll post it -

For the Spirit that God has given us, isn't one of cowardice, but one of power, love, and sensibility.

:HeartThrob:  This book is so on my shopping list!

=D  and the reason I asked what OP meant was because ET was also abbreviated so I assumed that OP must abbreviate a similar theological term.  I don't know if Warthog might want to discuss further.  I was hoping he might reply to my posts since he initially had interest in the topic but I guess he's not around.

I also don't know if anyone else might want to refer to my initial observations/comparisons between the definition of cult on the site I linked and discuss ways that we can prevent ourselves from falling into using these common tactics ourselves.  It's mentioned that these tactics on a lesser scale are used throughout society in the form of marketing techniques, and I would add also in general methods to intentionally encourage interpellation (social recruitment).  Should religion and in particular a Christianity that is beneficial set itself apart from worldly methods of marketing or interpellation?  Should the power, as Willie pointed out, be in the Truth through the Spirit alone?  Does allowing ourselves to utilize psychologically manipulatives methods as in standard marketing get in the way of the work of the Spirit?  I return to the quote,

They are variants of well-known social psychological principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, emotional manipulation, and others that are used on all of us daily to entice us: to buy, to try, to donate, to vote, to join, to change, to believe, to love, to hate the enemy.

If these methods have been used in replacement of the very different and distinctive power of Truth and Spirit and resulted in the dogmatism and fear which some here have found alarmingly present in people with whom they attempt to have open discussion regarding Universal Salvation then can understanding the precise fears and thought patterns, as well as initial methods of recruitment (or interpellation) into these culture groups help proponents of Universal Salvation to better express this freeing truth in a way that considers and is sensitive to these resultant fears and apparently withdrawn minds?

[Beloved Servant]

           "Just as there are five natural senses in the natural realm, so also there are five spiritual senses in the spiritual realm. The five senses of the body and soul are able only to see, hear, taste, touch and smell natural things, but these same five senses in the realm of the spirit are able to see, hear, taste, touch and smell all spiritual things which are invisible and incorruptible, as Paul explains: "... eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man (by any natural sense of power or perception) the things which God hath in reservation for those who love Him - but God HATH REVEALED THEM UNTO US by His Spirit; for the spirit searcheth (out) all things, yea the deep things of God" (I Cor. 2:9-14). When we are born of the Spirit the five senses of God become resident and operative within our spirit. Gradually, as we are quickened to become aware of these senses, the EYES of our understanding open wider and wider to the things not seen by the natural eye; by degrees the HEARING of faith increases until every good promise of God established as truth within; in time we come into TOUCH with the Lord and His invisible presence and powers; little by little we TASTE and see that the Lord is very gracious; after a time we come to appreciate those sacrifices and incense-prayers and praises and graces, which are a SWEET ODOR to the Lord. As the natural senses can be cultivated, so can the spiritual; and the cultivation of these spiritual senses constitutes marks indicating our growth in grace, our development as sons of God, to the completeness of our new selves in the glory, honor and immortality of the divine nature.

           When one walks by the spiritual senses of the new creation He, like Christ, has meat to eat that others know not of and drink to drink of which those around him have never tasted. Under the curse of death and separation from God man was banished from entrance into this blessed realm of reality in the Spirit. The heavens became shut up from him. He could not see eternal things. He could see only natural things. He could not hear spiritual and eternal things. He could hear only the lower sounds of earth. He could not taste spiritual things but only such things as he could eat with his physical mouth and take into his soul of the spirit of this world, none of which contain one iota of life or reality. He could not smell the more glorious fragrance of the heavenly realms, but only those perfumes which issued forth from things of earth. Neither could he feel the glory of God's presence, but his feeling was confined to the tangible and corruptible things of earth. He was condemned to live after the flesh, for the gate of the spiritual world was closed to him.

           Jesus has opened the gate, blessed be His name! He now bids us come to the place of feeding upon heavenly manna, for He says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me" (Rev. 3:20). The first taste we have of the Lord's table, is when we enter into our secret closet and close the door; shutting out everybody and everything, all our thoughts and desires, all sounds from the world, and all the six hundred sixty six voices of Babylon's religious systems. It is upon the door of this closet of communion in the SPIRITUAL REALM, that He comes and knocks; it is there He enters; and when we have shut the door, He spreads a table before us, and we sup with Him and He with us.  He spreads this table with heavenly viands; and we not only taste of the hidden manna, but we learn to feed upon it ONLY and CONTINUOUSLY; we drink of the living water more abundantly."

— J Preston Eby
KingdomBibleStudies.org
ECHOES FROM EDEN
part 7       

[Molly]

Won't it be great when we're all at peace with that liberty?

You may have just hit the nail on the head.  People are afraid of liberty, and not at all at peace with it. It's scary.   I think that's why we see them clinging to groups, needing to be accepted, compromising themselves for approval of men, wanting to be led and told what to think and what to wear and what to do.

So people are naturally susceptible to giving up freedom, and as freedom is reduced, we see the corresponding increase of cult-like behavior within almost any group.



But, Jesus has told us to be brave and bold, to take courage.  We are told to even boldly approach the throne of God.  If we could do that, then, how could we ever be intimidated by men?  More so, he has promised us that we will be worthy of honor, praise, and dignity, and  that we, along with all creation,...

Romans 8:21
... shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.




John 16:33
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."

[peacemaker]

They are variants of well-known social psychological principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, emotional manipulation, and others that are used on all of us daily to entice us: to buy, to try, to donate, to vote, to join, to change, to believe, to love, to hate the enemy.

Let us not advertise with labels and price manipulations, inducing people to buy
based on a faulty premise that what is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

"Cultivate loving-kindness, scattering the seeds which bear fruit."

peacemaker

[willieH]

willieH: Hi MOS... :hithere:

Before I begin my answer to you, might I make it known to you, that I am not set against you, nor anyone else.  I seek to contribute FRUITFUL commentary which is helpful in not only your growth as a believer (and others which read or participate in this discussion), but my own as well...  :friendstu:

I'm just here to discuss the topic of the thread with respect to Warthog, the topic starter.  You seem to be offended by the topic itself and wish to end it rather than engage in it.

I am not offended by the topic or the word "CULT"... I have just stated that the use of this word is a DIVISIVE activity.  I have spent many MANY hours elsewhere at ET sites... and can tell you without a doubt that currently, those who believe in UR are considered a CULT -- by MOST of THEM, and they are not shy about stating this toward our belief, labeling us with this sorrowful connotation, which they propose has us entangled, within its "falsehood".  :mshock: 

They could not be farther from the TRUTH... nor from acceptable emulation of the Savior.  Are we to be and DO, as they? --  Matt 5:44, 47

Why do you continue to avoid my questions of you?  Are you unable to answer them?  They are in proximity to this discussion because they are concerned with the use of the word "CULT" which the topic applies to those who hold a belief [ET] which opposes UR... What fruit is found in its use, MOS?

I suppose Biblical terms to employ in a discussion of Cult-like behaviors would be 'False Prophets' and 'Judging the spirit'.  Perhaps also examining 'fruit'.

Questioning methods employed to attain and retain membership, whether those methods have good fruit or are damaging to souls and minds, would still be not only allowable but recommended under the above Biblical terms.  Which is what I think Warthog, if I understood his initial post, is seeking to approach with this thread.

I believe the "burnouts" which Wart Hog is experiencing is found within the hard-headedness (and hard-heartedness/unbelief) of those who continue to cling to FALLACY in the face of the presentation of truth.  Name calling them with such words as "CULT", is not an alternative approach which shall enlighten these. 

It is our duty to share truth, as best we percieve it.  Just as with JESUS' ministry, we are to cite the REASON and TRUTH of the GOSPEL, and leave the increase or rejections of that presentation to God...

"Burnout" is found in EXPECTATION!   If we do not EXPECT "hearers" (acceptance) of our words... then we shall relieve ourselves of becoming "burned out" at their inacceptance which OFTEN abounds in them... employing the "turn the other cheek" admonition we have been given...  :cloud9:

JESUS Himself was (and IS) rejected... Did He ever use this word or any form of it toward any which might not "believe"?  If you must use words in description of some, why not repeat HIS WORDS?

Through my previous comments, it is my motive to discourgage those who believe the TRUTH, to abstain from using terms which serve to TEAR DOWN another... rather, be about preaching the GOSPEL to others, which contains no such words... and leave the results of that presentation to GOD.

It is important that we conduct ourselves with consistency... for we have GUESTS which visit our conversations here at Tentmaker... and if we are about BACKBITING those who are considering the belief of UR, do we honorably represent it?  Think about it.  :Chinscratch:

Understanding the sources and the results of negative patterns of behavior is beneficial in and of itself.  The edification of the body requires that we each be free to separate the wheat from the chaff.

We do not "sort" the wheat from the chaff in others... and as individual components of the BODY, ...we must DAILY subject ourselves to CHRIST that HE might do this IN US...  :dontknow:

No subject is forbidden for prayerful examination.  The Disciples, and the Christ Himself, were never shy to rebuke either Pharisees or Early Churches when they were behaving in a manner self-serving and even damaging.

I agree that nothing is forbidden for PRAYERFUL examination.  It is in part, how God shall open the doorways to new enlightenment in our own individual experiences... however,

How is naming another person or grouping with condescending terminology, flattering behavior?  :megashock:  How is it NOT "self serving"?  :dontknow:

That's about it.  :wink1:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[MyOwnSheep]

willieH: Hi MOS... :hithere:

Before I begin my answer to you, might I make it known to you, that I am not set against you, nor anyone else.  I seek to contribute FRUITFUL commentary which is helpful in not only your growth as a believer (and others which read or participate in this discussion), but my own as well...  :friendstu:

I'm just here to discuss the topic of the thread with respect to Warthog, the topic starter.  You seem to be offended by the topic itself and wish to end it rather than engage in it.

I am not offended by the topic or the word "CULT"... I have just stated that the use of this word is a DIVISIVE activity.  I have spent many MANY hours elsewhere at ET sites... and can tell you without a doubt that currently, those who believe in UR are considered a CULT -- by MOST of THEM, and they are not shy about stating this toward our belief, labeling us with this sorrowful connotation, which they propose has us entangled, within its "falsehood".  :mshock:  

They could not be farther from the TRUTH... nor from acceptable emulation of the Savior.  Are we to be and DO, as they? --  Matt 5:44, 47

Why do you continue to avoid my questions of you?  Are you unable to answer them?  They are in proximity to this discussion because they are concerned with the use of the word "CULT" which the topic applies to those who hold a belief [ET] which opposes UR... What fruit is found in its use, MOS?

I suppose Biblical terms to employ in a discussion of Cult-like behaviors would be 'False Prophets' and 'Judging the spirit'.  Perhaps also examining 'fruit'.

Questioning methods employed to attain and retain membership, whether those methods have good fruit or are damaging to souls and minds, would still be not only allowable but recommended under the above Biblical terms.  Which is what I think Warthog, if I understood his initial post, is seeking to approach with this thread.

I believe the "burnouts" which Wart Hog is experiencing is found within the hard-headedness (and hard-heartedness/unbelief) of those who continue to cling to FALLACY in the face of the presentation of truth.  Name calling them with such words as "CULT", is not an alternative approach which shall enlighten these.  

It is our duty to share truth, as best we percieve it.  Just as with JESUS' ministry, we are to cite the REASON and TRUTH of the GOSPEL, and leave the increase or rejections of that presentation to God...

"Burnout" is found in EXPECTATION!   If we do not EXPECT "hearers" (acceptance) of our words... then we shall relieve ourselves of becoming "burned out" at their inacceptance which OFTEN abounds in them... employing the "turn the other cheek" admonition we have been given...  :cloud9:

JESUS Himself was (and IS) rejected... Did He ever use this word or any form of it toward any which might not "believe"?  If you must use words in description of some, why not repeat HIS WORDS?

Through my previous comments, it is my motive to discourgage those who believe the TRUTH, to abstain from using terms which serve to TEAR DOWN another... rather, be about preaching the GOSPEL to others, which contains no such words... and leave the results of that presentation to GOD.

It is important that we conduct ourselves with consistency... for we have GUESTS which visit our conversations here at Tentmaker... and if we are about BACKBITING those who are considering the belief of UR, do we honorably represent it?  Think about it.  :Chinscratch:

Understanding the sources and the results of negative patterns of behavior is beneficial in and of itself.  The edification of the body requires that we each be free to separate the wheat from the chaff.

We do not "sort" the wheat from the chaff in others... and as individual components of the BODY, ...we must DAILY subject ourselves to CHRIST that HE might do this IN US...  :dontknow:

No subject is forbidden for prayerful examination.  The Disciples, and the Christ Himself, were never shy to rebuke either Pharisees or Early Churches when they were behaving in a manner self-serving and even damaging.

I agree that nothing is forbidden for PRAYERFUL examination.  It is in part, how God shall open the doorways to new enlightenment in our own individual experiences... however,

How is naming another person or grouping with condescending terminology, flattering behavior?  :megashock:  How is it NOT "self serving"?  :dontknow:

That's about it.  :wink1:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Hi Willie,

I guess I feel that I have answered all your questions regarding what is beneficial, how it is beneficial, and whether I feel the use of the term constitutes a blanket attack regardless of context, and what other terms might biblically be applied.  Jesus certainly wasn't flattering towards the actions of the Pharisees.

I also am not entirely certain that any part of the Church can consider itself fully separate from any other part.  Can the hand separate itself from the wrist, the head from the neck, the leg from the hip, the heart from the chest, the liver from the... you get the idea.   :mshock:  If it can then the Body of Christ suddenly conjures rather zombie-like images.

You point out your concern that non-universalists exploring the forum might feel insulted or attacked and so you voice your concern for reasons not of attacking, I'm sure, but to practice principles of accountability.   :HeartThrob:

Likewise I attempt to exlpore the idea, with accountability in mind, that we are called to be separate from the world in the methods we use.  Theres no such thing, for example, as torture for Christ.  Beleive in us or we'll kill your wife and children is NOT a cool way to win people over.  There are other not cool ways to hold sway over people too.

I'm sorry you've experienced the negative impact of being falsly accused of belonging to a cult as a means of dismissal.  That sucks.  What also sucks is all the men and women of Early Christianity who were called 'heretic' and killed violently for the same reason.

That's bad bad bad fruit.  That's the tradition I used to be a part of.  That's the source of the creeds I used to pledge to.  I feel acutely accountable for that and so so so very repentant for the work I did as a proponent of those creeds. With no understanding of what I was really spreading and the harm I was actually doing.  It doesn't matter that I was just a teenager myself, I'm ashamed.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi MOS... :hithere:

Again, prefacing my answer to you... I mean you no harm, but challenge you to LISTEN, that the possibility is sent your way herein to change...

Hi Willie,

I guess I feel that I have answered all your questions regarding what is beneficial, how it is beneficial, and whether I feel the use of the term constitutes a blanket attack regardless of context, and what other terms might biblically be applied.  Jesus certainly wasn't flattering towards the actions of the Pharisees.

Oh really? --- Where [post # & quote] have you answered this? --->

Do you really need to employ this term to prove your position in proximity to another MOS?

Or this? --->

They could not be farther from the TRUTH... nor from acceptable emulation of the Savior.  Are we to be and DO, as they? --  Matt 5:44, 47

Why do you continue to avoid my questions of you?  Are you unable to answer them?

Or this? --->

They are in proximity to this discussion because they are concerned with the use of the word "CULT" which the topic applies to those who hold a belief [ET] which opposes UR... What fruit is found in its use, MOS?

Or this? --->

JESUS Himself was (and IS) rejected... Did He ever use this word or any form of it toward any which might not "believe"?

Or this? --->

If you must use words in description of some, why not repeat HIS WORDS?

Or this? --->

It is important that we conduct ourselves with consistency... for we have GUESTS which visit our conversations here at Tentmaker... and if we are about BACKBITING those who are considering the belief of UR, do we honorably represent it?

Or this? --->

How is naming another person or grouping with condescending terminology, flattering behavior?  :megashock:  How is it NOT "self serving"?  :dontknow:

I also am not entirely certain that any part of the Church can consider itself fully separate from any other part.

[another question you shall likely avoid:]  

Now you are just plain fooling yourself bro... Do you truly think that BABYLON is NOT SEPARATE from the CHURCH? When YHVH calls us to REMOVE OURSELVES from it?

Rev 18:4 -- and I HEARD another VOICE from Heaven SAYING --- COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE... that ye NOT be PARTAKERS of HER SINS, and that ye RECEIVE NOT of HER PLAGUES...

How can the PEOPLE of GOD --- COME OUT of something they are... NOT, ...IN?  :omg:

And furthermore...  JESUS noted separation would be found in His followers, BECAUSE of Him:

Matt 10:35-39 --  For I am come to SET a man AT VARIANCE -- AGAINST -- his father, and the daughter AGAINST her mother, and the daughter in law AGAINST her mother in law... a mans foes shall be they of his OWN HOUSEHOLD [christianity]... He that loveth father or mother MORE than Me [the WORD] is not worthy of Me [to be a true follower/disciple] and he that loveth son or daughter MORE than Me [the WORD] of Me...  and He that TAKETH NOT HIS CROSS, and FOLLOWETH after ME, is NOT worthy of Me... He that FINDETH his life [IN the TRUTH for the truth is LIFE -- Matt 14:6] shall lose it [the LIES - which the MANY preach -- Matt 7:22-23] and he that LOSETH [the LIES] for MY SAKE [the TRUTH] shall find it.

How can TRUTH not be "separate" from LIES? 

As you look in the "rear view mirror" and observe yourself, ...Before you came to know the TRUTH of UR... do you consider that position as NOT LOVING CHRIST?  Or that you did NOT SERVE Him?  To KNOW the TRUTH in any given area is to be BLESSED in that area... the LORD brings the sun and rain to fall upon the JUST [blessed with truth] and the UNJUST [yet to be blessed with the truth]

The MANY which have CALLED upon the name of CHRIST shall be SAVED... but shall NOT have removed themselves from BABYLON at the CALL of the WORD... As I just noted in Rev 18:4... and shall face rejection of the WORD, as they note their [iniquitous] SERVICE to It -- Matt 7:22-23...

You are welcome to disregard what I say in the name of your pride bro... and I am not concerned one way or the other as to that disregard, for you follow the pathway ordained of YHVH, as do I...

Prov 20:24 -- Man's GOINGS are of YHVH... how can a man then UNDERSTAND his own way?

Prov 16:9 -- A man's heart deviseth his way... but YHVH DIRECTETH his STEPS...

Jer 10:23 -- O YHVH, I KNOW that the WAY of MAN is ...NOT IN HIMSELF; it is NOT in man that walketh to DIRECT HIS STEPS...

We ALL walk a pathway ordained of YHVH for there is NO POWER other than His -- Rom 13:1 -- and ALL THINGS are manifest according to HIS WILL -- Eph 1:11 --

So I fully realize that we are BOTH in HIS HANDS, doing what HE desires we do [or don't do] according to HIS PURPOSE -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:20-21

It is just as likely that my answers to YOU, are for others that are reading and NOT necessarily for you...  :JCThink:

Can the hand separate itself from the wrist, the head from the neck, the leg from the hip, the heart from the chest, the liver from the... you get the idea.   :mshock:  If it can then the Body of Christ suddenly conjures rather zombie-like images.

This is in my observance, your biggest hindrance bro... you aspire to closely to the fleshly picture... and think it spiritual...  :sigh:

The BODY of CHRIST is an UNCHANGING entity (for it is part of HIM who DOES NOT CHANGE)... so irregardless of TEMPORAL INJURY [sin], said PARTS, remain a portion of the BODY, even though the INJURY, temporarily is a SEPARATE experience from the other members...  :dontknow:

You point out your concern that non-universalists exploring the forum might feel insulted or attacked and so you voice your concern for reasons not of attacking, I'm sure, but to practice principles of accountability.   :HeartThrob:

Likewise I attempt to exlpore the idea, with accountability in mind, that we are called to be separate from the world in the methods we use.

:omg: You PLAINLY contradict yourself in saying this, bro...

(1)  You just noted there is NO SEPARATION in the "body", yet now you "explore" the idea of being SEPARATE?  The "world" consists of MANY separations to include the entity known a CHRISTIANITY...

That CHRISTIANITY has "separations" is decidedly evident to anyone observing it either from within it, or without it.  :dontknow:

(2)  If WE use the term "CULT" in our observance of another (which has called upon the Name of CHRIST, which is only enabled via the Holy Spirit -- 1 Cor 12:3)...

In what WAY have we separated ourselves from them, as THEY --- do the same (name calling = "CULT") in observing us?  How has the TRUTH thereby, been separated from LIES?  :mshock:

How is "OUR METHOD", different than theirs?  :mshock:

Theres no such thing, for example, as torture for Christ.  Beleive in us or we'll kill your wife and children is NOT a cool way to win people over.  There are other not cool ways to hold sway over people too.

I shall whole heartedly agree with this... but, how is the DEROGATORY NAME CALLING of others which profess our Lord, any the better?  :dontknow:

I'm sorry you've experienced the negative impact of being falsly accused of belonging to a cult as a means of dismissal.  That sucks.  What also sucks is all the men and women of Early Christianity who were called 'heretic' and killed violently for the same reason.

That's bad bad bad fruit.  That's the tradition I used to be a part of.  That's the source of the creeds I used to pledge to.  I feel acutely accountable for that and so so so very repentant for the work I did as a proponent of those creeds. With no understanding of what I was really spreading and the harm I was actually doing.  It doesn't matter that I was just a teenager myself, I'm ashamed.

:ty:  Thanks for these comments dear brother, but I count it worthy to suffer for the sake of the TRUTH... 

You are new here, so you do not know me, or my background...  I spent close to 25 years in the "system" myself (5yrs as SDA, 20yrs as Salvation Army member)... before the TRUTH was revealed to me... (10yrs ago)

Those which name us (believers in the Salvation of ALL MEN) as a misled "CULT" are they which --- KNOW NOT what THEY "DO"... and even though they have not asked, ...they are due OUR FORGIVENESS for that inability, as we aspire to recieve FORGIVENESS from ABOVE...  for one day prior to this one, WE were amongst THEM. :nod:

...willieH   :cloud9:

[MyOwnSheep]

 :icon_flower:  It is nice talking with you Willie,

but I have to be honest.  I, for the most part, do not understand you.  I don't understand how you don't see answers to your questions of me in my posts.  I do understand that you find the word cult offensive largely because you don't want to do unto others the evils that were done unto you.  I don't understand the functional difference between using the term cult and equating the bulk of the Church with Babylon and saying we're called to come out of her.  I guess I still envision all of Christendom, ET and UR, Trinitian and Unitarian - as one big dysfunctional yet singular body.  Emphasis on the Dysfunctional.  When I say we are meant to be separate from the world in the methods we use I do not (yet) equate Churchianity with the world. Just because lots of people have been gimped by history muddied bibles and creeds doesn't mean they're not genuine seekers of a genuine relationship with a living God.  Seek still equals find.  Most people UR's were once ET's and because they were genuine seekers with a genuine relationship WHILE they were ET's were able to be open to UR.

That said, now free from Eternal Torment doctrine not many here are shy to discuss openly what not to believe in - hell.  Nor are they shy to proclaim the victorious alternative.

Why so shy to talk about what not to DO?  I'm sure I'm not the only one here who was a Pastoral Student, learned of Church Models, of Evangelical Methodologies and felt a prick of discomfort at some of what is being done?  Where's the proclamation of a victorious alternative?

:HeartThrob:  Do keep talking to me, Willie.  I may not totally understand you yet but I'm sure I'll get there eventually.  And call me sis'.

[Molly]

When I say we are meant to be separate from the world...

That's the rub, isn't it?  The church is not separate from the world.  It is part of the world, which is why we so often see people railing about it for one reason or another.

So how can we be separate from the world when we live in the world?


1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.



Leviticus 11:44
44For I am the LORD your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy.





"holy"

H6918
קדשׁ    קדושׁ
qâdôsh  qâdôsh
kaw-doshe', kaw-doshe'
From H6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary: - holy (One), saint.



H6942
קדשׁ
qâdash
kaw-dash'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): - appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied one, self), X wholly.



from the Greek

"holy"

ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.


G53
ἁγνός
hagnos
hag-nos'
From the same as G40; properly clean, that is, (figuratively) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure.




What does pure mean?

"pure"

1. Having a homogeneous or uniform composition; not mixed: pure oxygen.
2. Free from adulterants or impurities: pure chocolate.
3. Free of dirt, defilement, or pollution: "A memory without blot or contamination must be . . . an inexhaustible source of pure refreshment" (Charlotte Brontë).
4. Free of foreign elements.
5. Containing nothing inappropriate or extraneous: a pure literary style.
6. Complete; utter: pure folly.
7. Having no faults; sinless: "I felt pure and sweet as a new baby" (Sylvia Plath).
8. Chaste; virgin.
9. Of unmixed blood or ancestry.
10. Genetics Produced by self-fertilization or continual inbreeding; homozygous: a pure line.


OH, that's a tall order.  Or is it?

Malachi 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.




Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

[jabcat]

:icon_flower:   I guess I still envision all of Christendom, ET and UR, Trinitian and Unitarian - as one big dysfunctional yet singular body.  Emphasis on the Dysfunctional.  When I say we are meant to be separate from the world in the methods we use I do not (yet) equate Churchianity with the world. Just because lots of people have been gimped by history muddied bibles and creeds doesn't mean they're not genuine seekers of a genuine relationship with a living God.  Seek still equals find.  Most people UR's were once ET's and because they were genuine seekers with a genuine relationship WHILE they were ET's were able to be open to UR.

Good thoughts Molly (peculiar people - set aside/called out) - and MOS.   :thumbsup:  Though I felt very strongly that God called me out of the system of denominationalism, I still believe anyone who believes on Jesus as Savior is my brother and sister.  I may have less in common with them than before and not share in all the "meals they serve", but they're still my family.  I just feel a bit of a strained relationship.   :bsad:  I had a fellow on here once tell me that anyone who didn't see UR was not as yet reconciled to God.  Hmmm...what about this part?  "Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".  And "..for by grace are we saved, and that not of ourselves, lest any man should boast"..  :bigGrin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: When I first came to the Lord, having no idea who, if anyone, I should listen to, I asked Him how would I know which of them were cults.

He said, "A cult always emphasizes it's ERROR." Apply that definition yourself and you'll find it's a LONG list. Blessings....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi MOS... :hithere:

:icon_flower:  It is nice talking with you Willie,

but I have to be honest.  I, for the most part, do not understand you.  I don't understand how you don't see answers to your questions of me in my posts.  I do understand that you find the word cult offensive largely because you don't want to do unto others the evils that were done unto you.  I don't understand the functional difference between using the term cult and equating the bulk of the Church with Babylon and saying we're called to come out of her.  I guess I still envision all of Christendom, ET and UR, Trinitian and Unitarian - as one big dysfunctional yet singular body.  Emphasis on the Dysfunctional.  When I say we are meant to be separate from the world in the methods we use I do not (yet) equate Churchianity with the world. Just because lots of people have been gimped by history muddied bibles and creeds doesn't mean they're not genuine seekers of a genuine relationship with a living God.  Seek still equals find.  Most people UR's were once ET's and because they were genuine seekers with a genuine relationship WHILE they were ET's were able to be open to UR.

Interesting...  :wink3:

FIRST -- I am sorry you find it hard to "understand" what I say... Maybe it is not your time to understand.  Please know that in no way do I put you down for this.  We are ALL on pathways that begin at varying times, in varying scenarios and circumstances... and that are ordained to be part of the WHOLE which interacts in the revelation of the WORD which contains the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL....

SECOND -- You would probably have better luck with me, if you quoted my questions, then answered them DIRECTLY, rather than assume that I have gained your answer amidst your reply, when it has OBVIOUSLY not been DIRECTLY addressed.  In this answer you continue that assumption... and have yet to answer any of them.  :dontknow:

YOU say that you do not "understand" me, yet (to this point) are unwilling to DIRECTLY address the questions which I individually ISOLATED and repeated for you?  How can you place me in a category which is "VAGUE", and yet your answers remain shrouded (at least to me) within your posts?  Why not DIRECTLY DEAL with them, instead of riding this "merry-go-round"?  :scratchhead:

THIRD -- Seek=find... I agree, ...but WHO actually is "doing" the "seeking" -- SIS? (btw... you did not designate gender in your profile, so that omission resulted in my assumption of "bro" as opposed to "sis" -- no offense intended!)  

Is not the SHEPHERD, the one "seeking" the SHEEP?  -- Luke 19:10 -- Luke 15:4-6

FOURTH --  It is my belief that anyone to whom the TRUTH of UR (Salvation of ALL MEN) is revealed... has not done so of themselves as you imply above, stating these as GENUINE SEEKERS.  

NO man can COME to YHVH unless the SON (not the "genuineness of their seeking") leads them there -- John 14:6 -- Matt 11:27 -- and  NO man can COME to the Son unless YHVH leads them there -- John 6:44 -- Matt 11:27 :nod:

ALL those who call CHRIST Lord, are about "seeking" Him.   However... only those who are OPEN when the "knocking" upon the door of their HEART, takes place -- Rev 3:20 -- shall come to KNOW the TRUTH, and the FREEDOM contained within it -- John 8:32

You see, SIS... Rev 3:20 is NOT about Salvation... Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man HEAR My Voice [His words, NOT the "knocking"] and OPEN [pivotal to KNOWING TRUTH] the door [HEARING the WORD] I will come IN to Him [the word comes into the heart] and will --- SUP -- with him, and he with Me

It is about EATING and DIGESTING... "Man shall NOT LIVE by BREAD ALONE, but by EVERY WORD which proceedeth from the mouth of GOD..." -- Matt 4:4 -- EATING is only the beginning [alpha] of the process... DIGESTING [omega] is the completion of it... within BOTH is the PROFIT of them found... and ONE is rendered void WITHOUT the other.

Without EATING ...DIGESTION does not take place, ...without DIGESTION, the EATING is purposeless...

It is NOT up to us to KNOW the TRUTH... it is up to us to SEEK it, and as we do, in humility, be content with our place within the scheme of GOD which includes ALL, and which involves ALL in its PROCESS, which is according to HIM, not US -- Eph 1:11 --

ALL THINGS are WORKED by Him.  HE created ALL THINGS -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- and therefore ALL THINGS [good or evil] are subject to the purposes and workings of HIS WILL, ...and NOT of their own mispercieved perception -- that somehow THEY decide their place and activity in the process, apart from Him (separation) :nod:

That said, now free from Eternal Torment doctrine not many here are shy to discuss openly what not to believe in - hell.  Nor are they shy to proclaim the victorious alternative.

Why so shy to talk about what not to DO?

It is as profittable to speak of what "TO DO NOT", as what "TO DO"... For GOD said in the very same CONTEXT, such as:

TO DO NOT:  Thou shalt NOT kill... as well as,
TO DO: HONOR thy Father and thy Mother... Didn't He?  

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who was a Pastoral Student, learned of Church Models, of Evangelical Methodologies and felt a prick of discomfort at some of what is being done?  Where's the proclamation of a victorious alternative?

Hmm.... maybe you are here to UNLEARN much of that, SIS...

:HeartThrob:  Do keep talking to me, Willie.  I may not totally understand you yet but I'm sure I'll get there eventually.  And call me sis'.

I will be more than happy to continue...  :friendstu: ...and maybe on another day you shall revisit some of these things which I have stated to you today, and which you have not understood, ...and find them CRYSTAL CLEAR...  :dontknow:


...willieH  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

:cloud9: When I first came to the Lord, having no idea who, if anyone, I should listen to, I asked Him how would I know which of them were cults.

He said, "A cult always emphasizes it's ERROR." Apply that definition yourself and you'll find it's a LONG list. Blessings....

I like that.

[sheila]

well, having been run into the ground,literally,spiritually and

physically by a religious cult.I have a few things to say.

  I was sooo wiped out by that expierence.. :sigh:.I don't think

anything less than the FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE BY GRACE

would have revived me. :bgdance:

  anything 'works' based/or dependant on my action...would not

have caused me to REVIVE :sigh:

  NOW, when I heard...WHAT HE HAD DONE....THAT ALL MEN

WERE SAVED BY THE WORKS OF HIS HANDS...I could take

  heart again.......I could rest....after being driven by spiritual

slave-drivers to the point I could no longer get up.

   Hey, IF ALL MEN ARE SAVED...it's a foregone conclusion that

i'M INCLUDED :bgdance:

   Now, after I rested in the GOODNEWS of my salvation...

and wasn't beat about it...told...do this...do that..etc

  I began to revive....and my heart was moved with appreciation

and I found that I wanted to return this LOVE He had showed

  me....and I wanted others who were so hard pressed like I had

been,to have the relif and rest that I enjoyed.

    I had to know HE LOVED ME FIRST.....as long as any man

was not saved...I was not free from anxiety. I knew He loved me

because I was included with every man being saved.


   I PRAISE HIM for opening my eyes at just the right time..

  when I was soooo wore out. THE SAINTS WERE WORE

   OUT,you know? Dan 12;7   When the power of the Holy

people has finally been broken...then ALL THESE THINGS WILL

HAVE BEEN COMPLETED.

   For me, I think letting them know that they have eternal life as a free gift from God...and that it is not dependant on their works..but the works of God....will refresh the weary

   the 'take life's water free' is totally opposite of the buying

and selling,merchandizing of Babylon.


   GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT!  WHILE YOU CAN!

[CHB]

Exactly the experience I had Sheila.  :happy3:

CHB

[sheila]

 Hi CHB...sad to say..it is an all to familiar story. But thanks be

to GOD...the POWER AND GLORY IS HIS!!

[Beloved Servant]

Amen.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RGcb7alSk0&feature=related

[Wart Hog]

Thanks for all the great input. Sorry I haven't been available to respond.

As I see it: The Scriptures teach that "God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Tim. 1:7 Spiritual tyranny is based upon and driven by fear, and is opposed to all the graces mentioned. It is fear, consuming the victim and perpetrator alike. But those possessing the spirit of power from God have a confidence in God and truth, and are not afraid to prayerfully step out of their comfort zone and seek God fearlessly in the pages of His Word, regardless of the possible cost. They are not afraid to love and respect others, and win them by the love of God and truth, not fear and intimidation; plus their minds are sound, because they are constantly used and exercised in the pursuit of their holy objectives. To the extent we fall short of this ideal, to that extent I feel we are still subject to and influenced by the spirit of religion, the spirit of the cult religion that rejected and ultimately crucified the Savior.


"Truth, to the humble seeker is not a destination he reaches or an intellectual pinnacle he achieves early in his Christian walk, but a glorious, lifelong journey and quest toward the very heart of God!" From "Whatever Happened To Melanie". The true lover of God and truth is constantly on this journey, and he humbly assists and encourages others to enter in and walk it fearlessly. Spiritual tyrants, on the other hand, have already arrived, in there own estimation, and actively forbid and discourage others from pursuing the journey, because there's no need... all they have to do is bow to them. The spirit of fear, the spirit of tyranny, the spirit of religion, the cult spirit that both blatantly and subtly opposes the spirit of power, love, and a sound mind, is alive and well in society and the church. Being actively possessed by a spirit of power, love and a sound mind, we must actively oppose it, most of all, within ourselves.

Sorry, I like to pontificate.  :icon_king: