Tentmaker Forum

I share "Burned Outs" frustration with all those, I'm sure, who have tried to share UR particularily with Evangelicals. May be the problem is we're expecting too much. I read a piece recently identifying evangelicals as part of the Eternal Torment Cult. I'd never seen it in that light before. But the more I think about it, the negative, fearful responses I've received over the ears, it sure adds up. That being the case, how should this possibly change our approach and message? Possibly sharing with people they're cult-like responses and reactions to UR may help. When I compare them with Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons, for example, what difference is there, really. The only difference I see is the shade of cult, not its essence... small case cult, as opposed to large case Cult... that's about it. I'm starting to ramble. Please share.

Quote from: Wart Hog on January 15, 2010, 07:57:46 PM
I share "Burned Outs" frustration with all those, I'm sure, who have tried to share UR particularily with Evangelicals. May be the problem is we're expecting too much. I read a piece recently identifying evangelicals as part of the Eternal Torment Cult. I'd never seen it in that light before. But the more I think about it, the negative, fearful responses I've received over the ears, it sure adds up. That being the case, how should this possibly change our approach and message? Possibly sharing with people they're cult-like responses and reactions to UR may help. When I compare them with Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons, for example, what difference is there, really. The only difference I see is the shade of cult, not its essence... small case cult, as opposed to large case Cult... that's about it. I'm starting to ramble. Please share.

I am not sure about cults, but I do know there is a percentage of Christians that assert  "Not all are saved" and their intepretations surround that.

True, but their lack of objectivity and reluctance to listen and engage in meaningful dialogue disturbs me... hence, ear markings of small-case cult. How do we most effectively break into that?

Quote from: Wart Hog on January 15, 2010, 11:45:45 PM
True, but their lack of objectivity and reluctance to listen and engage in meaningful dialogue disturbs me... hence, ear markings of small-case cult. How do we most effectively break into that?

Good question, don't think I have an adequate answer. I have seen people come to this freedom of thought so many different ways I have concluded that I share where I am led and God will do the rest and perhaps it is not my responsibility to do the breaking, only to set the charge and yell,  FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!     :happy3:

The only way to break through to any one is to break through on ourselves...

All people have already been completley included into the fullness of God, they lack nothing. Unless we believe that they (every living person) is IN already we have no message for them.

2 Corinthians 14 "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

   15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

   16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh"


There is only one Good message, it's a message for everyone, it's the same message for everyone wether they are Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Buddist etc...

Becuase of Jesus, YOU HAVE BEEN INCLUDED. You aren't going to get anything ever... YOU HAVE EVERYTHING!

Hallelujah!!

Peace
Dallas

Quote from: Dallas on January 20, 2010, 06:16:51 AM
The only way to break through to any one is to break through on ourselves...

All people have already been completley included into the fullness of God, they lack nothing. Unless we believe that they (every living person) is IN already we have no message for them.

2 Corinthians 14 "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

   15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

   16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh"


There is only one Good message, it's a message for everyone, it's the same message for everyone wether they are Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Buddist etc...

Becuase of Jesus, YOU HAVE BEEN INCLUDED. You aren't going to get anything ever... YOU HAVE EVERYTHING!

Hallelujah!!

Peace
Dallas

so did Jesus change God's view of us?  or is it THROUGH Jesus, we change our mind about what God has always been; LOVE

It's also "The Pastor Cult."  They have other mediators that pursuade them that to subimit to their authority is to be under duly appointed representatives of the kingdom of God, while Jesus refuses to share His bride with another.  How do you think He feels seeing another man in bed with Him and His wife, telling His wife that to love her husband she has to go through Him?

It is not just "The Ceaseless Torture For Ever Cult," a matter of what they believe; but, it is a matter of what they do.  They refuse the Holy Spirit access to His body in their meetings.  Another authority, another doctrine, another practice: "The Evangelical Cult."  It is not consensus of the local body of Christ over what is written in Scripture that determines orthodoxy and orthopraxy for them.  They have those authorized by other men to tell everybody else what to think and do.  Everybody else is not supposed to know on their own or do anything by their own leadings.  Their spirit is overthrown.  They sear their consciences.  They are blinded as was Samson.  Cut:  Seven Locks of Samson's Hair.  Caged:  with every unclean and hateful bird.  The messengers are tying the wicked together into to bundles to be burned!  Woe, woe, and again I say woe!

Revelation 18:1-5 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
1 After these things I perceived another messenger descending out of heaven, having great authority. And the earth is illuminated by his glory.
2 And he cries with a strong voice, saying, "It falls! It falls! Babylon the great! And it became the dwelling place of demons and the jail of every unclean spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird,
3 for, as a result of the wine of the fury of her prostitution have all the nations fallen. And the kings of the earth commit prostitution with her ,and the merchants of the earth are rich as a result of her power to indulge."
4 And I hear another voice out of heaven, saying, "Come out of her, My people, lest you should be joint participants in her sins, and lest you should be getting of her calamities,
5 for her sins were piled up to heaven, and God remembers her injuries...

Quote from: Dallas on January 20, 2010, 06:16:51 AM
The only way to break through to any one is to break through on ourselves...

All people have already been completley included into the fullness of God, they lack nothing. Unless we believe that they (every living person) is IN already we have no message for them.

2 Corinthians 14 "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

  15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

  16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh"


There is only one Good message, it's a message for everyone, it's the same message for everyone wether they are Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Buddist etc...

Becuase of Jesus, YOU HAVE BEEN INCLUDED. You aren't going to get anything ever... YOU HAVE EVERYTHING!

Hallelujah!!

Peace
Dallas

Hi Dallas.  Not expecting to convince you my brother, but stating my own beliefs and understanding of scripture.  I still believe  we each individually need to be saved - at whatever appointed time the Holy Spirit draws each one of us, and we are given the faith to believe on Jesus unto salvation.  I don't believe a Buddist for example, has of yet been chosen, called out.  Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through Him, rather than all roads lead to the Father.  Without getting into a "let's beat each other over the head with the scriptures"  :laughing7:, I'll just say I personally believe there are many scriptures that talk about a specific event of one coming into belief unto salvation.  Some now, called out/chosen for the purpose of working God's will to bring the rest in - all the rest later.  That's the way I see it.  James.

Quoteso did Jesus change God's view of us?  or is it THROUGH Jesus, we change our mind about what God has always been; LOVE

Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, in Romans Paul also says that God passed over sins previously committed... Just as in the wilderness when people lost trust in God and the serpents came to poison them Moses errected a stick for them to look upon and they would be restored, did the stick have magical properties, no but what it did was offer THEM permission to trust God.
God never held anything against any man, Jesus is the means in which all men can hang their shame that prevents them from trusting God and again be part of the relationship.

QuoteHi Dallas.  Not expecting to convince you my brother, but stating my own beliefs and understanding of scripture.  I still believe  we each individually need to be saved - at whatever appointed time the Holy Spirit draws each one of us, and we are given the faith to believe on Jesus unto salvation.  I don't believe a Buddist for example, has of yet been chosen, called out.  Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through Him, rather than all roads lead to the Father.  Without getting into a "let's beat each other over the head with the scriptures"  , I'll just say I personally believe there are many scriptures that talk about a specific event of one coming into belief unto salvation.  Some now, called out/chosen for the purpose of working God's will to bring the rest in - all the rest later.  That's the way I see it.  James

I don't deny that there is an experience that many refer to as their born again moment, but that moment isn't the trigger it's the response.

QuoteI don't believe a Buddist for example, has of yet been chosen, called out.

Then what must they do, what job must they perform what, WORK must be accomplished to allow entrance?

No, the buddist is already included, but how can that buddist ever believe if they aren't told? (Romans 10) You can't exclude the buddist, when Jesus died all were included, even you, even before you acknowledged it, However the richness of the treasures of God weren't realized till after you saw...but you were only seeing what had always been there.

Quote from: Dallas on January 21, 2010, 12:32:53 AM
believe on Jesus unto salvation.  I don't believe a Buddist for example, has of yet been chosen, called out.  Jesus

QuoteI don't believe a Buddist for example, has of yet been chosen, called out.

Then what must they do, what job must they perform what, WORK must be accomplished to allow entrance?

No, the buddist is already included, but how can that buddist ever believe if they aren't told? (Romans 10) You can't exclude the buddist, when Jesus died all were included, even you, even before you acknowledged it, However the richness of the treasures of God weren't realized till after you saw...but you were only seeing what had always been there.

What must they do?  I don't believe they do anything in and of themselves.  But I believe until they are visited specifically by the Holy Spirit, convicted of their need, and given the faith to believe upon Jesus as their Savior, then they are waiting to be made spiritually alive - each in his own order.  Many scriptures, but for one, I'll reference the jailor..."sirs what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:25..)

Not being harsh, not better than anyone - there but for the grace of God go I [us].  It's how I understand the scriptures.

Thanks for the good discussion.   :bigGrin:  

Very good discussion! reFORMer, I love what you pointed out about the "church" having mediators and that was an awesome analogy with the lovers! What I am realizing more and more is that we ALL hear from God, He is the One who enlightens ALL men who come into this world. We don't need any man to stand in between us and God to tell us what God wants us to do, He will certainly speak to us Himself!

Anyhow, Wart Hog I think we just need to remember that evangelicals reject our message out of fear, because they believe that if they even consider something that sounds heretical God will throw them into hell to be tortured for all eternity. However I also believe that if the Truth is shared with them even if they reject it at first, seeds ARE planted and they WILL think about it and mull it over. Like Paul, I believe we shouldn't worry too much about our approach to certain individuals, but just share when we are led.

James and Dallas, you are having a very interesting discussion about something that I am personally wondering about. First of all, how do you both define salvation? Is it to be saved from hell or to be saved from death or to be saved from sin or something else or all of the above? (And should we start another thread? lol)

I think it depends on ones definition of a cult.  Some christian groups define a cult as any belief system that doesn't share their particular interpretation of the Bible.  If it's popular, it's not defined as a cult by the general populous.  But whether the normative definition is an adequate definition deserves to be questioned.  There have been truly scary cults in our time which have resulted in people dieing, people being separated from their loved ones, bizzarre changes in behavior.  What sets these cults apart is the damaging methodologies which employ specifically and purposefully manipulative tactics to imprison peoples minds. 

http://www.cultfaq.org/cultfaq-answers-brainwashing.html

Quote"A remarkable thing about cult mind control is that it's so ordinary in the tactics and strategies of social influence employed. They are variants of well-known social psychological principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, emotional manipulation, and others that are used on all of us daily to entice us: to buy, to try, to donate, to vote, to join, to change, to believe, to love, to hate the enemy.

Cult mind control is not different in kind from these everyday varieties, but in its greater intensity, persistence, duration, and scope. One difference is in its greater efforts to block quitting the group, by imposing high exit costs, replete with induced phobias of harm, failure, and personal isolation. "

Does Fundamentalist Churchianity fall within these parameters?  Does it use tactics of social influence employing the principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, and emotional manipulation?  Are these tactics used with a great intensity, persistence, duration and scope?  Is quitting the group blocked my threats of impending hell and an inability to return to salvation once it has been denied?  Do followers often suffer with phobias of harm (in the form of being left behind at the rapture), as sense of failure as they fail to live up to impossible legalistic standards, and personal isolation as they must cautiously present to their group the image they have been taught to present as they quell any question within as sinful demonic doubt and reject anyone outside the group as worldly and sent from satan to lead them astray?

I think yes.

It's also notable that deviation from the collective results in being ostrasized - increasing the threat of isolation for those who are raised within the group or whom have dedicated years to building relationships souly within the isolationist group.  Your founder, in his video's which I very much enjoyed watching, noted that the Churches to which he once belonged rejected him for his observations regarding Universal Salvation.  Does this not follow the pattern of cult tactics?

willieH: Hi WH... (initials just like mine!)  :cloud9:

Quote from: Wart Hog on January 15, 2010, 11:45:45 PM
True, but their lack of objectivity and reluctance to listen and engage in meaningful dialogue disturbs me... hence, ear markings of small-case cult. How do we most effectively break into that?

(1)  "Cults" are a designation created by MEN, and it is literally useless, for any man can call another "cultish"...  It is derogatory, and bears no spiritual fruit in its use.

(2)  Concerning the TRUTH of the WORD, revelation only comes from God...  As we share TRUTH with an Athiest, or Agnostic or Islamic, or Christian, it is not upon US to avail the spiritual substance of it in the ear of those to whom we speak...

Only YHVH has the power to reveal a given TRUTH of His WORD... and everyone which esteems His WORD as His... shall share it with others, with that in mind... content with simply being an INSTRUMENT in the Hand of the Master.

Knowing with CONFIDENCE that there will be times in which a new enlightenment might potentially take place in others, and that at other times it will not take place...

Our duty is to share the TRUTH of the Gospel... It is the DELIVERER which uses that TRUTH to deliver... not the instruments (us) that He might choose to use...  :dontknow:

Quote from: lomarah on January 21, 2010, 08:49:07 PM
We don't need any man to stand in between us and God to tell us what God wants us to do, He will certainly speak to us himself!

:thumbsup:

Quote from: willieH on March 12, 2010, 07:31:40 PM
"Cults" are a designation created by MEN

A faux pas of a social context.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: willieH on March 12, 2010, 07:31:40 PM
willieH: Hi WH... (initials just like mine!)  :cloud9:

(1)  "Cults" are a designation created by MEN...

...willieH  :icon_king:

Erm all words are designations created by men.  Chair. Apple. Ceiling. Dog.  Cat.  Mouse.  Rainbow. 

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 12, 2010, 08:38:44 PM

Quote from: willieH on March 12, 2010, 07:31:40 PM
willieH: Hi WH... (initials just like mine!)  :cloud9:

(1)  "Cults" are a designation created by MEN...

Erm all words are designations created by men.  Chair. Apple. Ceiling. Dog.  Cat.  Mouse.  Rainbow. 

"Erm", ...NONE of these "words" designate MAN in a definitive category... as does the word "CULT"...

Man is not considered a "dog, cat, mouse, rainbow, chair, apple, or ceiling"...  :laughing7: -- although some perchance think a man to be "DOG-LIKE", on occasion...  :laugh: ...even PIG-LIKE! (...once in awhile!  :laughhand:)

Okay, I'll bite.

Male, Female, American, Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Christian, Pagan, Witch, Homosexual, Religion, Cult, Redhead, Ethnicity, Race, White, Black, Native, Bearded, Pirate, Geek, Nerd, Jock, Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, British, Canadian, Pakistani, Israeli,  Jewish, Redeemed...

Still lots of words that people assign meaning to.  Designations created by men.  It's how humans communicate.  That they are designations created by men does not remove or diminish the meaning they hold for men.  If we are to cease to discuss anything that involves designations created by men then we will cease to discuss anything at all, including salvation or redemption.  Language is a human tool of communication, a purely social construct.

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 12, 2010, 11:30:47 PM
Okay, I'll bite.

Oh no, you didn't!  :laughing7:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 12, 2010, 11:30:47 PM
Okay, I'll bite.

No one is seeking you to "bite"...  :mnah:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 12, 2010, 11:30:47 PMMale, Female, American, Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Christian, Pagan, Witch, Homosexual, Religion, Cult, Redhead, Ethnicity, Race, White, Black, Native, Bearded, Pirate, Geek, Nerd, Jock, Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, British, Canadian, Pakistani, Israeli,  Jewish, Redeemed...

Still lots of words that people assign meaning to.  Designations created by men.  It's how humans communicate.  That they are designations created by men does not remove or diminish the meaning they hold for men.  If we are to cease to discuss anything that involves designations created by men then we will cease to discuss anything at all, including salvation or redemption.  Language is a human tool of communication, a purely social construct.

:omg: ...Whatever! :rolleye:  ...you are missing the points that I intended to make... and are proceeding upon a fruitless sidetrack...

The point being that the TRUTH, is either REVEALED or VEILED to any given person, and REVELATION of the TRUTH, is NOT according to any particular organization, or line of thinking, ...rather it is left, and rightly so, to YHVH GOD, within the PURPOSE of GOD... that REVELATION is availed to anyone about ANYTHING concerning the Scriptures...

The word "CULT", often used (basically by RELIGIOUS oriented persons) within the discussion of the Scriptures or within the analyzing of doctrinal positions within the "Christian Religion", ...is a PURPOSED derogatory term which is used and INTENDED in a DEROGATORY manner toward one or more persons...

It is ineptly and FOOLISHLY used by one who holds his/her opinion as "the TRUTH" -- and in strawman fashion employs the term "CULT", ...and thereby hopes to "designate" the opinion which is noted in discussion as OPPOSING to their own, as "CULTISH" or OF a "CULT"...  :dontknow: ...and therefore (by this name calling) false or misleading...

Usually this is done because the user of said term, is unable to Biblically respond to the challenge being made to their position... and seeks to erect a strawman by applying the word "cult" to their opposer --- which does not verify their position, but gives them an excuse to resort to, ...in lieu of proper Biblical response.

Try going to CARM, and challenge their current observational positions of the Bible... Matt Slick will oblige your challenge by ridiculing it with such words as "CULT", ...and then proceed to delete your challenge in the name of this strawman diversion, using said term as his JUSTIFIABLE basis...  :rolleye:

The use of such words by ANY which seek to uphold and secure the TRUTH, are employing DIVISIVE and UNFRUITFUL terminology instead of HONORABLY proving their position with the WORD of GOD.   :sigh:

It is true that some people use it as simply a derogatory label for anyone they disagree with, but I do think that these people are misusing the term.  Nobody denies that the poisoned coolaid drinkers and weapon stockpilers are bad news, I'm not aware of a term for these other than cult.  What about a religion whose end goal is to be given all of your worldly assets and then seal you away on a prison ship in international waters, never to be heard from again?  I mean, jeepers! 

But the term cult has, as you point out, been watered down and used by members of one Christian sub-group to describe any other Christian sub-group which they consider to be heretical.  They don't want to call them Christian, so they call them cults. Cult is the new Heretic for these people. 

But if we aren't to use the term 'Cult' to describe the overtly manipulative and controlling coolaid drinkers of the world, what word is there?  Surely the excercise of principles of phsychological manipulation and control are separate from a true Shepherd empowering and enabling his flock to form an independent and vibrant relationship with a Living and Loving Creator?

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 01:01:28 AM
But if we aren't to use the term 'Cult' to describe the overtly manipulative and controlling coolaid drinkers of the world, what word is there?  Surely the excercise of principles of phsychological manipulation and control are separate from a true Shepherd empowering and enabling his flock to form an independent and vibrant relationship with a Living and Loving Creator?

Do you really need to employ this term to prove your position in proximity to another MOS?

Also... those enveloped within RELIGIOUS trappings will not be detered by name calling. :pitiful:   Applying the word "CULT" to them, shall do nothing to shake their position! ...all it does is lower the user, (in their eyes and heart of the named) by its application to them.

If one has the BEAUTIFUL position of TRUTH, ...one does not have to resort to using such words as "CULT" in discussion with another.   Just using the TRUTH one has been blessed to know, shall be sufficient. 

For the TRUTH does BEAR WITNESS of ITSELF:

John 14:6 -- I... am the way the TRUTH and the life...

John 8:18 -- I... am one that BEAR WITNESS of ...MYSELF...

IMO -- The word "CULT" is UNBIBLICAL terminology, and has no place in the discussion of the Holy WORD, for all it serves to do... is DIVIDE.   It certainly will NOT persuade another to change his/her position by being named with it.  :mshock:

No amount of name calling or potentially fallible condescension, will EVER exalt ones position from fallacy to TRUTH...  :dontknow:

And the TRUTH is not in need of the "assistance" of such words to avail itself to anyone.  :declare:

I'm just here to discuss the topic of the thread with respect to Warthog, the topic starter.  You seem to be offended by the topic itself and wish to end it rather than engage in it.

I suppose Biblical terms to employ in a discussion of Cult-like behaviors would be 'False Prophets' and 'Judging the spirit'.  Perhaps also examining 'fruit'.

Questioning methods employed to attain and retain membership, whether those methods have good fruit or are damaging to souls and minds, would still be not only allowable but recommended under the above Biblical terms.  Which is what I think Warthog, if I understood his initial post, is seeking to approach with this thread.

Understanding the sources and the results of negative patterns of behavior is beneficial in and of itself.  The edification of the body requires that we each be free to separate the wheat from the chaff.  No subject is forbidden for prayerful examination.  The Disciples, and the Christ Himself, were never shy to rebuke either Pharisees or Early Churches when they were behaving in a manner self-serving and even damaging.

The question of whether methods and behaviors employed throughout modern Churchianity follow negative and damaging patterns associated with common understandings of Psychological Manipulation and control as employed by those organizations which share the label of cult even outside Christian culture and within mainstream culture is worthy of examination and discussion.

Whether Brother willieH is offended or not is not the concern of this post.
The point is, however, is that YOU perceive it so and yet carry on.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 13, 2010, 02:51:45 AM
Whether Brother willieH is offended or not is not the concern of this post.
The point is, however, is that YOU perceive it so and yet carry on.

Do you think the topic should be censored?  I don't see much freedom in that.  I'm not one to be easilly bullied and yes I do wish to carry on discussing the interesting topic which Warthog raised.  I do so with the knowledge that anyone offended need not participate and also in full assurance that I have spoken with respect and even conceded to Willie his point that the term with which he has a problem can be and has been misused in christian circles.

Censored? Umm...I don't even understand the question seeing that freedom comes from the Spirit of Christ within expressing His life through us.
Easily bullied? Well, I shall pay the tithe as to not offend and say that you seem like a very learned individual, well able to speak his own mind and stand up for what he thinks is right. Amen.
Ahhh — Christian circles — forever moving anywhere but — UP!

Quote from: MOSThe question of whether methods and behaviors employed throughout modern Churchianity follow negative and damaging patterns associated with common understandings of Psychological Manipulation and control as employed by those organizations which share the label of cult even outside Christian culture and within mainstream culture is worthy of examination and discussion.

Interesting discussion--cult does have a definition which I can tell you understand very well.  Interesting what WH said, also, because we can easily be led into using the term as a derogatory term for groups of people we want others to reject--such as, those gun toting 'rednecks' [turns out the rednecks were American heroes, but that's another story].

There IS such a thing as a cult.  Like pornography, I might not be able to precisely define it, but I know it when I see it [to quote the Judge].  And, when you come down to it, just about any organized, named religion or group would probably qualify because they all have do's and don't's, and right and wrong, and usually end up with a leader who wants to run the show...

But--

  2 Corinthians 3:17
"... where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



And, sooner or later, that's where he is taking us all.

Thanks Molly and MOS for moving this thread back on topic.  That's just a itty-bitty movement of 'up'.   :bigGrin:

Maybe we can just acknowledge there are varying meanings to words, and we really should be careful with what spirit and attitude we use them.  Although I personally don't believe necessarily that any group that believes in ET is what I consider a true 'cult' (I probably see it in a much narrower definition), what else helpful can we glean from discussing the OP further?  Thanks, James.

Thank you Molly,

:thumbsup:  Now that is an awsome thought of epic scale and a most excellent verse.  Won't it be great when we're all at peace with that liberty?  What is 2 Timothy 1:7 in the Christian Bible Translation you were teaching about in another thread?

In Young's Literal it's 'For God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.'


What's OP?

original/opening post - which is what it appears you're trying to get back to

Mol doesn't have her translation (yet), so I'll post it -

For the Spirit that God has given us, isn't one of cowardice, but one of power, love, and sensibility.

Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2010, 04:24:17 AM
Mol doesn't have her translation (yet), so I'll post it -

For the Spirit that God has given us, isn't one of cowardice, but one of power, love, and sensibility.

:HeartThrob:  This book is so on my shopping list!

=D  and the reason I asked what OP meant was because ET was also abbreviated so I assumed that OP must abbreviate a similar theological term.  I don't know if Warthog might want to discuss further.  I was hoping he might reply to my posts since he initially had interest in the topic but I guess he's not around.

I also don't know if anyone else might want to refer to my initial observations/comparisons between the definition of cult on the site I linked and discuss ways that we can prevent ourselves from falling into using these common tactics ourselves.  It's mentioned that these tactics on a lesser scale are used throughout society in the form of marketing techniques, and I would add also in general methods to intentionally encourage interpellation (social recruitment).  Should religion and in particular a Christianity that is beneficial set itself apart from worldly methods of marketing or interpellation?  Should the power, as Willie pointed out, be in the Truth through the Spirit alone?  Does allowing ourselves to utilize psychologically manipulatives methods as in standard marketing get in the way of the work of the Spirit?  I return to the quote,

QuoteThey are variants of well-known social psychological principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, emotional manipulation, and others that are used on all of us daily to entice us: to buy, to try, to donate, to vote, to join, to change, to believe, to love, to hate the enemy.

If these methods have been used in replacement of the very different and distinctive power of Truth and Spirit and resulted in the dogmatism and fear which some here have found alarmingly present in people with whom they attempt to have open discussion regarding Universal Salvation then can understanding the precise fears and thought patterns, as well as initial methods of recruitment (or interpellation) into these culture groups help proponents of Universal Salvation to better express this freeing truth in a way that considers and is sensitive to these resultant fears and apparently withdrawn minds?

           "Just as there are five natural senses in the natural realm, so also there are five spiritual senses in the spiritual realm. The five senses of the body and soul are able only to see, hear, taste, touch and smell natural things, but these same five senses in the realm of the spirit are able to see, hear, taste, touch and smell all spiritual things which are invisible and incorruptible, as Paul explains: "... eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man (by any natural sense of power or perception) the things which God hath in reservation for those who love Him - but God HATH REVEALED THEM UNTO US by His Spirit; for the spirit searcheth (out) all things, yea the deep things of God" (I Cor. 2:9-14). When we are born of the Spirit the five senses of God become resident and operative within our spirit. Gradually, as we are quickened to become aware of these senses, the EYES of our understanding open wider and wider to the things not seen by the natural eye; by degrees the HEARING of faith increases until every good promise of God established as truth within; in time we come into TOUCH with the Lord and His invisible presence and powers; little by little we TASTE and see that the Lord is very gracious; after a time we come to appreciate those sacrifices and incense-prayers and praises and graces, which are a SWEET ODOR to the Lord. As the natural senses can be cultivated, so can the spiritual; and the cultivation of these spiritual senses constitutes marks indicating our growth in grace, our development as sons of God, to the completeness of our new selves in the glory, honor and immortality of the divine nature.

           When one walks by the spiritual senses of the new creation He, like Christ, has meat to eat that others know not of and drink to drink of which those around him have never tasted. Under the curse of death and separation from God man was banished from entrance into this blessed realm of reality in the Spirit. The heavens became shut up from him. He could not see eternal things. He could see only natural things. He could not hear spiritual and eternal things. He could hear only the lower sounds of earth. He could not taste spiritual things but only such things as he could eat with his physical mouth and take into his soul of the spirit of this world, none of which contain one iota of life or reality. He could not smell the more glorious fragrance of the heavenly realms, but only those perfumes which issued forth from things of earth. Neither could he feel the glory of God's presence, but his feeling was confined to the tangible and corruptible things of earth. He was condemned to live after the flesh, for the gate of the spiritual world was closed to him.

           Jesus has opened the gate, blessed be His name! He now bids us come to the place of feeding upon heavenly manna, for He says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me" (Rev. 3:20). The first taste we have of the Lord's table, is when we enter into our secret closet and close the door; shutting out everybody and everything, all our thoughts and desires, all sounds from the world, and all the six hundred sixty six voices of Babylon's religious systems. It is upon the door of this closet of communion in the SPIRITUAL REALM, that He comes and knocks; it is there He enters; and when we have shut the door, He spreads a table before us, and we sup with Him and He with us.  He spreads this table with heavenly viands; and we not only taste of the hidden manna, but we learn to feed upon it ONLY and CONTINUOUSLY; we drink of the living water more abundantly."

Quote from: MOSWon't it be great when we're all at peace with that liberty?

You may have just hit the nail on the head.  People are afraid of liberty, and not at all at peace with it. It's scary.   I think that's why we see them clinging to groups, needing to be accepted, compromising themselves for approval of men, wanting to be led and told what to think and what to wear and what to do.

So people are naturally susceptible to giving up freedom, and as freedom is reduced, we see the corresponding increase of cult-like behavior within almost any group.



But, Jesus has told us to be brave and bold, to take courage.  We are told to even boldly approach the throne of God.  If we could do that, then, how could we ever be intimidated by men?  More so, he has promised us that we will be worthy of honor, praise, and dignity, and  that we, along with all creation,...

Romans 8:21
... shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.




John 16:33
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."

QuoteThey are variants of well-known social psychological principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, emotional manipulation, and others that are used on all of us daily to entice us: to buy, to try, to donate, to vote, to join, to change, to believe, to love, to hate the enemy.

Let us not advertise with labels and price manipulations, inducing people to buy
based on a faulty premise that what is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

"Cultivate loving-kindness, scattering the seeds which bear fruit."

peacemaker

willieH: Hi MOS... :hithere:

Before I begin my answer to you, might I make it known to you, that I am not set against you, nor anyone else.  I seek to contribute FRUITFUL commentary which is helpful in not only your growth as a believer (and others which read or participate in this discussion), but my own as well...  :friendstu:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 02:21:15 AM
I'm just here to discuss the topic of the thread with respect to Warthog, the topic starter.  You seem to be offended by the topic itself and wish to end it rather than engage in it.

I am not offended by the topic or the word "CULT"... I have just stated that the use of this word is a DIVISIVE activity.  I have spent many MANY hours elsewhere at ET sites... and can tell you without a doubt that currently, those who believe in UR are considered a CULT -- by MOST of THEM, and they are not shy about stating this toward our belief, labeling us with this sorrowful connotation, which they propose has us entangled, within its "falsehood".  :mshock: 

They could not be farther from the TRUTH... nor from acceptable emulation of the Savior.  Are we to be and DO, as they? --  Matt 5:44, 47

Why do you continue to avoid my questions of you?  Are you unable to answer them?  They are in proximity to this discussion because they are concerned with the use of the word "CULT" which the topic applies to those who hold a belief [ET] which opposes UR... What fruit is found in its use, MOS?

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 02:21:15 AMI suppose Biblical terms to employ in a discussion of Cult-like behaviors would be 'False Prophets' and 'Judging the spirit'.  Perhaps also examining 'fruit'.

Questioning methods employed to attain and retain membership, whether those methods have good fruit or are damaging to souls and minds, would still be not only allowable but recommended under the above Biblical terms.  Which is what I think Warthog, if I understood his initial post, is seeking to approach with this thread.

I believe the "burnouts" which Wart Hog is experiencing is found within the hard-headedness (and hard-heartedness/unbelief) of those who continue to cling to FALLACY in the face of the presentation of truth.  Name calling them with such words as "CULT", is not an alternative approach which shall enlighten these. 

It is our duty to share truth, as best we percieve it.  Just as with JESUS' ministry, we are to cite the REASON and TRUTH of the GOSPEL, and leave the increase or rejections of that presentation to God...

"Burnout" is found in EXPECTATION!   If we do not EXPECT "hearers" (acceptance) of our words... then we shall relieve ourselves of becoming "burned out" at their inacceptance which OFTEN abounds in them... employing the "turn the other cheek" admonition we have been given...  :cloud9:

JESUS Himself was (and IS) rejected... Did He ever use this word or any form of it toward any which might not "believe"?  If you must use words in description of some, why not repeat HIS WORDS?

Through my previous comments, it is my motive to discourgage those who believe the TRUTH, to abstain from using terms which serve to TEAR DOWN another... rather, be about preaching the GOSPEL to others, which contains no such words... and leave the results of that presentation to GOD.

It is important that we conduct ourselves with consistency... for we have GUESTS which visit our conversations here at Tentmaker... and if we are about BACKBITING those who are considering the belief of UR, do we honorably represent it?  Think about it.  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 02:21:15 AMUnderstanding the sources and the results of negative patterns of behavior is beneficial in and of itself.  The edification of the body requires that we each be free to separate the wheat from the chaff.

We do not "sort" the wheat from the chaff in others... and as individual components of the BODY, ...we must DAILY subject ourselves to CHRIST that HE might do this IN US...  :dontknow:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 02:21:15 AMNo subject is forbidden for prayerful examination.  The Disciples, and the Christ Himself, were never shy to rebuke either Pharisees or Early Churches when they were behaving in a manner self-serving and even damaging.

I agree that nothing is forbidden for PRAYERFUL examination.  It is in part, how God shall open the doorways to new enlightenment in our own individual experiences... however,

How is naming another person or grouping with condescending terminology, flattering behavior?  :megashock:  How is it NOT "self serving"?  :dontknow:

That's about it.  :wink1:

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH on March 13, 2010, 09:12:45 PM
willieH: Hi MOS... :hithere:

Before I begin my answer to you, might I make it known to you, that I am not set against you, nor anyone else.  I seek to contribute FRUITFUL commentary which is helpful in not only your growth as a believer (and others which read or participate in this discussion), but my own as well...  :friendstu:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 02:21:15 AM
I'm just here to discuss the topic of the thread with respect to Warthog, the topic starter.  You seem to be offended by the topic itself and wish to end it rather than engage in it.

I am not offended by the topic or the word "CULT"... I have just stated that the use of this word is a DIVISIVE activity.  I have spent many MANY hours elsewhere at ET sites... and can tell you without a doubt that currently, those who believe in UR are considered a CULT -- by MOST of THEM, and they are not shy about stating this toward our belief, labeling us with this sorrowful connotation, which they propose has us entangled, within its "falsehood".  :mshock:  

They could not be farther from the TRUTH... nor from acceptable emulation of the Savior.  Are we to be and DO, as they? --  Matt 5:44, 47

Why do you continue to avoid my questions of you?  Are you unable to answer them?  They are in proximity to this discussion because they are concerned with the use of the word "CULT" which the topic applies to those who hold a belief [ET] which opposes UR... What fruit is found in its use, MOS?

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 02:21:15 AMI suppose Biblical terms to employ in a discussion of Cult-like behaviors would be 'False Prophets' and 'Judging the spirit'.  Perhaps also examining 'fruit'.

Questioning methods employed to attain and retain membership, whether those methods have good fruit or are damaging to souls and minds, would still be not only allowable but recommended under the above Biblical terms.  Which is what I think Warthog, if I understood his initial post, is seeking to approach with this thread.

I believe the "burnouts" which Wart Hog is experiencing is found within the hard-headedness (and hard-heartedness/unbelief) of those who continue to cling to FALLACY in the face of the presentation of truth.  Name calling them with such words as "CULT", is not an alternative approach which shall enlighten these.  

It is our duty to share truth, as best we percieve it.  Just as with JESUS' ministry, we are to cite the REASON and TRUTH of the GOSPEL, and leave the increase or rejections of that presentation to God...

"Burnout" is found in EXPECTATION!   If we do not EXPECT "hearers" (acceptance) of our words... then we shall relieve ourselves of becoming "burned out" at their inacceptance which OFTEN abounds in them... employing the "turn the other cheek" admonition we have been given...  :cloud9:

JESUS Himself was (and IS) rejected... Did He ever use this word or any form of it toward any which might not "believe"?  If you must use words in description of some, why not repeat HIS WORDS?

Through my previous comments, it is my motive to discourgage those who believe the TRUTH, to abstain from using terms which serve to TEAR DOWN another... rather, be about preaching the GOSPEL to others, which contains no such words... and leave the results of that presentation to GOD.

It is important that we conduct ourselves with consistency... for we have GUESTS which visit our conversations here at Tentmaker... and if we are about BACKBITING those who are considering the belief of UR, do we honorably represent it?  Think about it.  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 02:21:15 AMUnderstanding the sources and the results of negative patterns of behavior is beneficial in and of itself.  The edification of the body requires that we each be free to separate the wheat from the chaff.

We do not "sort" the wheat from the chaff in others... and as individual components of the BODY, ...we must DAILY subject ourselves to CHRIST that HE might do this IN US...  :dontknow:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 02:21:15 AMNo subject is forbidden for prayerful examination.  The Disciples, and the Christ Himself, were never shy to rebuke either Pharisees or Early Churches when they were behaving in a manner self-serving and even damaging.

I agree that nothing is forbidden for PRAYERFUL examination.  It is in part, how God shall open the doorways to new enlightenment in our own individual experiences... however,

How is naming another person or grouping with condescending terminology, flattering behavior?  :megashock:  How is it NOT "self serving"?  :dontknow:

That's about it.  :wink1:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Hi Willie,

I guess I feel that I have answered all your questions regarding what is beneficial, how it is beneficial, and whether I feel the use of the term constitutes a blanket attack regardless of context, and what other terms might biblically be applied.  Jesus certainly wasn't flattering towards the actions of the Pharisees.

I also am not entirely certain that any part of the Church can consider itself fully separate from any other part.  Can the hand separate itself from the wrist, the head from the neck, the leg from the hip, the heart from the chest, the liver from the... you get the idea.   :mshock:  If it can then the Body of Christ suddenly conjures rather zombie-like images.

You point out your concern that non-universalists exploring the forum might feel insulted or attacked and so you voice your concern for reasons not of attacking, I'm sure, but to practice principles of accountability.   :HeartThrob:

Likewise I attempt to exlpore the idea, with accountability in mind, that we are called to be separate from the world in the methods we use.  Theres no such thing, for example, as torture for Christ.  Beleive in us or we'll kill your wife and children is NOT a cool way to win people over.  There are other not cool ways to hold sway over people too.

I'm sorry you've experienced the negative impact of being falsly accused of belonging to a cult as a means of dismissal.  That sucks.  What also sucks is all the men and women of Early Christianity who were called 'heretic' and killed violently for the same reason.

That's bad bad bad fruit.  That's the tradition I used to be a part of.  That's the source of the creeds I used to pledge to.  I feel acutely accountable for that and so so so very repentant for the work I did as a proponent of those creeds. With no understanding of what I was really spreading and the harm I was actually doing.  It doesn't matter that I was just a teenager myself, I'm ashamed.

willieH: Hi MOS... :hithere:

Again, prefacing my answer to you... I mean you no harm, but challenge you to LISTEN, that the possibility is sent your way herein to change...

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 10:13:48 PM
Hi Willie,

I guess I feel that I have answered all your questions regarding what is beneficial, how it is beneficial, and whether I feel the use of the term constitutes a blanket attack regardless of context, and what other terms might biblically be applied.  Jesus certainly wasn't flattering towards the actions of the Pharisees.

Oh really? --- Where [post # & quote] have you answered this? --->

Quote from: willieH on March 13, 2010, 01:52:04 AM
Do you really need to employ this term to prove your position in proximity to another MOS?

Or this? --->

Quote from: willieH on March 13, 2010, 09:12:45 PM
They could not be farther from the TRUTH... nor from acceptable emulation of the Savior.  Are we to be and DO, as they? --  Matt 5:44, 47

Why do you continue to avoid my questions of you?  Are you unable to answer them?

Or this? --->

Quote from: willieH on March 13, 2010, 09:12:45 PM
They are in proximity to this discussion because they are concerned with the use of the word "CULT" which the topic applies to those who hold a belief [ET] which opposes UR... What fruit is found in its use, MOS?

Or this? --->

Quote from: willieH on March 13, 2010, 09:12:45 PM
JESUS Himself was (and IS) rejected... Did He ever use this word or any form of it toward any which might not "believe"?

Or this? --->

Quote from: willieH on March 13, 2010, 09:12:45 PM
If you must use words in description of some, why not repeat HIS WORDS?

Or this? --->

Quote from: willieH on March 13, 2010, 09:12:45 PM
It is important that we conduct ourselves with consistency... for we have GUESTS which visit our conversations here at Tentmaker... and if we are about BACKBITING those who are considering the belief of UR, do we honorably represent it?

Or this? --->

Quote from: willieH on March 13, 2010, 09:12:45 PM
How is naming another person or grouping with condescending terminology, flattering behavior?  :megashock:  How is it NOT "self serving"?  :dontknow:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 10:13:48 PMI also am not entirely certain that any part of the Church can consider itself fully separate from any other part.

[another question you shall likely avoid:]  

Now you are just plain fooling yourself bro... Do you truly think that BABYLON is NOT SEPARATE from the CHURCH? When YHVH calls us to REMOVE OURSELVES from it?

Rev 18:4 -- and I HEARD another VOICE from Heaven SAYING --- COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE... that ye NOT be PARTAKERS of HER SINS, and that ye RECEIVE NOT of HER PLAGUES...

How can the PEOPLE of GOD --- COME OUT of something they are... NOT, ...IN?  :omg:

And furthermore...  JESUS noted separation would be found in His followers, BECAUSE of Him:

Matt 10:35-39 --  For I am come to SET a man AT VARIANCE -- AGAINST -- his father, and the daughter AGAINST her mother, and the daughter in law AGAINST her mother in law... a mans foes shall be they of his OWN HOUSEHOLD [christianity]... He that loveth father or mother MORE than Me [the WORD] is not worthy of Me [to be a true follower/disciple] and he that loveth son or daughter MORE than Me [the WORD] of Me...  and He that TAKETH NOT HIS CROSS, and FOLLOWETH after ME, is NOT worthy of Me... He that FINDETH his life [IN the TRUTH for the truth is LIFE -- Matt 14:6] shall lose it [the LIES - which the MANY preach -- Matt 7:22-23]  and he that LOSETH [the LIES] for MY SAKE [the TRUTH] shall find it.

How can TRUTH not be "separate" from LIES? 

As you look in the "rear view mirror" and observe yourself, ...Before you came to know the TRUTH of UR... do you consider that position as NOT LOVING CHRIST?  Or that you did NOT SERVE Him?  To KNOW the TRUTH in any given area is to be BLESSED in that area... the LORD brings the sun and rain to fall upon the JUST [blessed with truth] and the UNJUST [yet to be blessed with the truth]

The MANY which have CALLED upon the name of CHRIST shall be SAVED... but shall NOT have removed themselves from BABYLON at the CALL of the WORD... As I just noted in Rev 18:4... and shall face rejection of the WORD, as they note their [iniquitous] SERVICE to It -- Matt 7:22-23...

You are welcome to disregard what I say in the name of your pride bro... and I am not concerned one way or the other as to that disregard, for you follow the pathway ordained of YHVH, as do I...

Prov 20:24 -- Man's GOINGS are of YHVH... how can a man then UNDERSTAND his own way?

Prov 16:9 -- A man's heart deviseth his way... but YHVH DIRECTETH his STEPS...

Jer 10:23 -- O YHVH, I KNOW that the WAY of MAN is ...NOT IN HIMSELF; it is NOT in man that walketh to DIRECT HIS STEPS...

We ALL walk a pathway ordained of YHVH for there is NO POWER other than His -- Rom 13:1 -- and ALL THINGS are manifest according to HIS WILL -- Eph 1:11 --

So I fully realize that we are BOTH in HIS HANDS, doing what HE desires we do [or don't do] according to HIS PURPOSE -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:20-21

It is just as likely that my answers to YOU, are for others that are reading and NOT necessarily for you...  :JCThink:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 10:13:48 PMCan the hand separate itself from the wrist, the head from the neck, the leg from the hip, the heart from the chest, the liver from the... you get the idea.   :mshock:  If it can then the Body of Christ suddenly conjures rather zombie-like images.

This is in my observance, your biggest hindrance bro... you aspire to closely to the fleshly picture... and think it spiritual...  :sigh:

The BODY of CHRIST is an UNCHANGING entity (for it is part of HIM who DOES NOT CHANGE)... so irregardless of TEMPORAL INJURY [sin], said PARTS, remain a portion of the BODY, even though the INJURY, temporarily is a SEPARATE experience from the other members...  :dontknow:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 10:13:48 PMYou point out your concern that non-universalists exploring the forum might feel insulted or attacked and so you voice your concern for reasons not of attacking, I'm sure, but to practice principles of accountability.   :HeartThrob:

Likewise I attempt to exlpore the idea, with accountability in mind, that we are called to be separate from the world in the methods we use.

:omg: You PLAINLY contradict yourself in saying this, bro...

(1)  You just noted there is NO SEPARATION in the "body", yet now you "explore" the idea of being SEPARATE?  The "world" consists of MANY separations to include the entity known a CHRISTIANITY...

That CHRISTIANITY has "separations" is decidedly evident to anyone observing it either from within it, or without it.  :dontknow:

(2)  If WE use the term "CULT" in our observance of another (which has called upon the Name of CHRIST, which is only enabled via the Holy Spirit -- 1 Cor 12:3)...

In what WAY have we separated ourselves from them, as THEY --- do the same (name calling = "CULT") in observing us?  How has the TRUTH thereby, been separated from LIES?  :mshock:

How is "OUR METHOD", different than theirs?  :mshock:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 10:13:48 PMTheres no such thing, for example, as torture for Christ.  Beleive in us or we'll kill your wife and children is NOT a cool way to win people over.  There are other not cool ways to hold sway over people too.

I shall whole heartedly agree with this... but, how is the DEROGATORY NAME CALLING of others which profess our Lord, any the better?  :dontknow:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 13, 2010, 10:13:48 PMI'm sorry you've experienced the negative impact of being falsly accused of belonging to a cult as a means of dismissal.  That sucks.  What also sucks is all the men and women of Early Christianity who were called 'heretic' and killed violently for the same reason.

That's bad bad bad fruit.  That's the tradition I used to be a part of.  That's the source of the creeds I used to pledge to.  I feel acutely accountable for that and so so so very repentant for the work I did as a proponent of those creeds. With no understanding of what I was really spreading and the harm I was actually doing.  It doesn't matter that I was just a teenager myself, I'm ashamed.

:ty:  Thanks for these comments dear brother, but I count it worthy to suffer for the sake of the TRUTH... 

You are new here, so you do not know me, or my background...  I spent close to 25 years in the "system" myself (5yrs as SDA, 20yrs as Salvation Army member)... before the TRUTH was revealed to me... (10yrs ago)

Those which name us (believers in the Salvation of ALL MEN) as a misled "CULT" are they which --- KNOW NOT what THEY "DO"... and even though they have not asked, ...they are due OUR FORGIVENESS for that inability, as we aspire to recieve FORGIVENESS from ABOVE...  for one day prior to this one, WE were amongst THEM. :nod:

 :icon_flower:  It is nice talking with you Willie,

but I have to be honest.  I, for the most part, do not understand you.  I don't understand how you don't see answers to your questions of me in my posts.  I do understand that you find the word cult offensive largely because you don't want to do unto others the evils that were done unto you.  I don't understand the functional difference between using the term cult and equating the bulk of the Church with Babylon and saying we're called to come out of her.  I guess I still envision all of Christendom, ET and UR, Trinitian and Unitarian - as one big dysfunctional yet singular body.  Emphasis on the Dysfunctional.  When I say we are meant to be separate from the world in the methods we use I do not (yet) equate Churchianity with the world. Just because lots of people have been gimped by history muddied bibles and creeds doesn't mean they're not genuine seekers of a genuine relationship with a living God.  Seek still equals find.  Most people UR's were once ET's and because they were genuine seekers with a genuine relationship WHILE they were ET's were able to be open to UR.

That said, now free from Eternal Torment doctrine not many here are shy to discuss openly what not to believe in - hell.  Nor are they shy to proclaim the victorious alternative.

Why so shy to talk about what not to DO?  I'm sure I'm not the only one here who was a Pastoral Student, learned of Church Models, of Evangelical Methodologies and felt a prick of discomfort at some of what is being done?  Where's the proclamation of a victorious alternative?

:HeartThrob:  Do keep talking to me, Willie.  I may not totally understand you yet but I'm sure I'll get there eventually.  And call me sis'.

QuoteWhen I say we are meant to be separate from the world...

That's the rub, isn't it?  The church is not separate from the world.  It is part of the world, which is why we so often see people railing about it for one reason or another.

So how can we be separate from the world when we live in the world?


1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.



Leviticus 11:44
44For I am the LORD your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy.





"holy"

H6918
קדשׁ    קדושׁ
qâdôsh  qâdôsh
kaw-doshe', kaw-doshe'
From H6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary: - holy (One), saint.



H6942
קדשׁ
qâdash
kaw-dash'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): - appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied one, self), X wholly.



from the Greek

"holy"

ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.


G53
ἁγνός
hagnos
hag-nos'
From the same as G40; properly clean, that is, (figuratively) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure.




What does pure mean?

"pure"

1. Having a homogeneous or uniform composition; not mixed: pure oxygen.
2. Free from adulterants or impurities: pure chocolate.
3. Free of dirt, defilement, or pollution: "A memory without blot or contamination must be . . . an inexhaustible source of pure refreshment" (Charlotte Brontë).
4. Free of foreign elements.
5. Containing nothing inappropriate or extraneous: a pure literary style.
6. Complete; utter: pure folly.
7. Having no faults; sinless: "I felt pure and sweet as a new baby" (Sylvia Plath).
8. Chaste; virgin.
9. Of unmixed blood or ancestry.
10. Genetics Produced by self-fertilization or continual inbreeding; homozygous: a pure line.


OH, that's a tall order.  Or is it?

Malachi 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.




Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 15, 2010, 01:09:11 AM
:icon_flower:   I guess I still envision all of Christendom, ET and UR, Trinitian and Unitarian - as one big dysfunctional yet singular body.  Emphasis on the Dysfunctional.  When I say we are meant to be separate from the world in the methods we use I do not (yet) equate Churchianity with the world. Just because lots of people have been gimped by history muddied bibles and creeds doesn't mean they're not genuine seekers of a genuine relationship with a living God.  Seek still equals find.  Most people UR's were once ET's and because they were genuine seekers with a genuine relationship WHILE they were ET's were able to be open to UR.

Good thoughts Molly (peculiar people - set aside/called out) - and MOS.   :thumbsup:  Though I felt very strongly that God called me out of the system of denominationalism, I still believe anyone who believes on Jesus as Savior is my brother and sister.  I may have less in common with them than before and not share in all the "meals they serve", but they're still my family.  I just feel a bit of a strained relationship.   :bsad:  I had a fellow on here once tell me that anyone who didn't see UR was not as yet reconciled to God.  Hmmm...what about this part?  "Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".  And "..for by grace are we saved, and that not of ourselves, lest any man should boast"..  :bigGrin:

 :cloud9: When I first came to the Lord, having no idea who, if anyone, I should listen to, I asked Him how would I know which of them were cults.

He said, "A cult always emphasizes it's ERROR." Apply that definition yourself and you'll find it's a LONG list. Blessings....

willieH: Hi MOS... :hithere:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 15, 2010, 01:09:11 AM
:icon_flower:  It is nice talking with you Willie,

but I have to be honest.  I, for the most part, do not understand you.  I don't understand how you don't see answers to your questions of me in my posts.  I do understand that you find the word cult offensive largely because you don't want to do unto others the evils that were done unto you.  I don't understand the functional difference between using the term cult and equating the bulk of the Church with Babylon and saying we're called to come out of her.  I guess I still envision all of Christendom, ET and UR, Trinitian and Unitarian - as one big dysfunctional yet singular body.  Emphasis on the Dysfunctional.  When I say we are meant to be separate from the world in the methods we use I do not (yet) equate Churchianity with the world. Just because lots of people have been gimped by history muddied bibles and creeds doesn't mean they're not genuine seekers of a genuine relationship with a living God.  Seek still equals find.  Most people UR's were once ET's and because they were genuine seekers with a genuine relationship WHILE they were ET's were able to be open to UR.

Interesting...  :wink3:

FIRST -- I am sorry you find it hard to "understand" what I say... Maybe it is not your time to understand.  Please know that in no way do I put you down for this.  We are ALL on pathways that begin at varying times, in varying scenarios and circumstances... and that are ordained to be part of the WHOLE which interacts in the revelation of the WORD which contains the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL....

SECOND -- You would probably have better luck with me, if you quoted my questions, then answered them DIRECTLY, rather than assume that I have gained your answer amidst your reply, when it has OBVIOUSLY not been DIRECTLY addressed.  In this answer you continue that assumption... and have yet to answer any of them.  :dontknow:

YOU say that you do not "understand" me, yet (to this point) are unwilling to DIRECTLY address the questions which I individually ISOLATED and repeated for you?  How can you place me in a category which is "VAGUE", and yet your answers remain shrouded (at least to me) within your posts?  Why not DIRECTLY DEAL with them, instead of riding this "merry-go-round"?  :scratchhead:

THIRD -- Seek=find... I agree, ...but WHO actually is "doing" the "seeking" -- SIS? (btw... you did not designate gender in your profile, so that omission resulted in my assumption of "bro" as opposed to "sis" -- no offense intended!)  

Is not the SHEPHERD, the one "seeking" the SHEEP?  -- Luke 19:10 -- Luke 15:4-6

FOURTH --  It is my belief that anyone to whom the TRUTH of UR (Salvation of ALL MEN) is revealed... has not done so of themselves as you imply above, stating these as GENUINE SEEKERS.  

NO man can COME to YHVH unless the SON (not the "genuineness of their seeking") leads them there -- John 14:6 -- Matt 11:27 -- and  NO man can COME to the Son unless YHVH leads them there -- John 6:44 -- Matt 11:27 :nod:

ALL those who call CHRIST Lord, are about "seeking" Him.   However... only those who are OPEN when the "knocking" upon the door of their HEART, takes place -- Rev 3:20 -- shall come to KNOW the TRUTH, and the FREEDOM contained within it -- John 8:32

You see, SIS... Rev 3:20 is NOT about Salvation... Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man HEAR My Voice [His words, NOT the "knocking"] and OPEN [pivotal to KNOWING TRUTH] the door [HEARING the WORD] I will come IN to Him [the word comes into the heart] and will --- SUP -- with him, and he with Me

It is about EATING and DIGESTING... "Man shall NOT LIVE by BREAD ALONE, but by EVERY WORD which proceedeth from the mouth of GOD..." -- Matt 4:4 -- EATING is only the beginning [alpha] of the process... DIGESTING [omega] is the completion of it... within BOTH is the PROFIT of them found... and ONE is rendered void WITHOUT the other.

Without EATING ...DIGESTION does not take place, ...without DIGESTION, the EATING is purposeless...

It is NOT up to us to KNOW the TRUTH... it is up to us to SEEK it, and as we do, in humility, be content with our place within the scheme of GOD which includes ALL, and which involves ALL in its PROCESS, which is according to HIM, not US -- Eph 1:11 --

ALL THINGS are WORKED by Him.  HE created ALL THINGS -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- and therefore ALL THINGS [good or evil] are subject to the purposes and workings of HIS WILL, ...and NOT of their own mispercieved perception -- that somehow THEY decide their place and activity in the process, apart from Him (separation) :nod:

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 15, 2010, 01:09:11 AMThat said, now free from Eternal Torment doctrine not many here are shy to discuss openly what not to believe in - hell.  Nor are they shy to proclaim the victorious alternative.

Why so shy to talk about what not to DO?

It is as profittable to speak of what "TO DO NOT", as what "TO DO"... For GOD said in the very same CONTEXT, such as:

TO DO NOT:  Thou shalt NOT kill... as well as,
TO DO: HONOR thy Father and thy Mother... Didn't He?  

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 15, 2010, 01:09:11 AMI'm sure I'm not the only one here who was a Pastoral Student, learned of Church Models, of Evangelical Methodologies and felt a prick of discomfort at some of what is being done?  Where's the proclamation of a victorious alternative?

Hmm.... maybe you are here to UNLEARN much of that, SIS...

Quote from: MyOwnSheep on March 15, 2010, 01:09:11 AM:HeartThrob:  Do keep talking to me, Willie.  I may not totally understand you yet but I'm sure I'll get there eventually.  And call me sis'.

I will be more than happy to continue...  :friendstu: ...and maybe on another day you shall revisit some of these things which I have stated to you today, and which you have not understood, ...and find them CRYSTAL CLEAR...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Cardinal on March 15, 2010, 10:14:03 PM
:cloud9: When I first came to the Lord, having no idea who, if anyone, I should listen to, I asked Him how would I know which of them were cults.

He said, "A cult always emphasizes it's ERROR." Apply that definition yourself and you'll find it's a LONG list. Blessings....

I like that.

well, having been run into the ground,literally,spiritually and

physically by a religious cult.I have a few things to say.

  I was sooo wiped out by that expierence.. :sigh:.I don't think

anything less than the FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE BY GRACE

would have revived me. :bgdance:

  anything 'works' based/or dependant on my action...would not

have caused me to REVIVE :sigh:

  NOW, when I heard...WHAT HE HAD DONE....THAT ALL MEN

WERE SAVED BY THE WORKS OF HIS HANDS...I could take

  heart again.......I could rest....after being driven by spiritual

slave-drivers to the point I could no longer get up.

   Hey, IF ALL MEN ARE SAVED...it's a foregone conclusion that

i'M INCLUDED :bgdance:

   Now, after I rested in the GOODNEWS of my salvation...

and wasn't beat about it...told...do this...do that..etc

  I began to revive....and my heart was moved with appreciation

and I found that I wanted to return this LOVE He had showed

  me....and I wanted others who were so hard pressed like I had

been,to have the relif and rest that I enjoyed.

    I had to know HE LOVED ME FIRST.....as long as any man

was not saved...I was not free from anxiety. I knew He loved me

because I was included with every man being saved.


   I PRAISE HIM for opening my eyes at just the right time..

  when I was soooo wore out. THE SAINTS WERE WORE

   OUT,you know? Dan 12;7   When the power of the Holy

people has finally been broken...then ALL THESE THINGS WILL

HAVE BEEN COMPLETED.

   For me, I think letting them know that they have eternal life as a free gift from God...and that it is not dependant on their works..but the works of God....will refresh the weary

   the 'take life's water free' is totally opposite of the buying

and selling,merchandizing of Babylon.


   GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT!  WHILE YOU CAN!

Exactly the experience I had Sheila.  :happy3:

CHB

 Hi CHB...sad to say..it is an all to familiar story. But thanks be

to GOD...the POWER AND GLORY IS HIS!!

Amen.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RGcb7alSk0&feature=related

Thanks for all the great input. Sorry I haven't been available to respond.

As I see it: The Scriptures teach that "God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Tim. 1:7 Spiritual tyranny is based upon and driven by fear, and is opposed to all the graces mentioned. It is fear, consuming the victim and perpetrator alike. But those possessing the spirit of power from God have a confidence in God and truth, and are not afraid to prayerfully step out of their comfort zone and seek God fearlessly in the pages of His Word, regardless of the possible cost. They are not afraid to love and respect others, and win them by the love of God and truth, not fear and intimidation; plus their minds are sound, because they are constantly used and exercised in the pursuit of their holy objectives. To the extent we fall short of this ideal, to that extent I feel we are still subject to and influenced by the spirit of religion, the spirit of the cult religion that rejected and ultimately crucified the Savior.


"Truth, to the humble seeker is not a destination he reaches or an intellectual pinnacle he achieves early in his Christian walk, but a glorious, lifelong journey and quest toward the very heart of God!" From "Whatever Happened To Melanie". The true lover of God and truth is constantly on this journey, and he humbly assists and encourages others to enter in and walk it fearlessly. Spiritual tyrants, on the other hand, have already arrived, in there own estimation, and actively forbid and discourage others from pursuing the journey, because there's no need... all they have to do is bow to them. The spirit of fear, the spirit of tyranny, the spirit of religion, the cult spirit that both blatantly and subtly opposes the spirit of power, love, and a sound mind, is alive and well in society and the church. Being actively possessed by a spirit of power, love and a sound mind, we must actively oppose it, most of all, within ourselves.

Sorry, I like to pontificate.  :icon_king:

It was the night before the Jim Jones debacle.  I dreamed that there were several government persons creating something similar to a radio drama on a tape.  They would discuss, "We could have him say this; " or, "Maybe he should say that."  Then, "No; if he did it would seen such and such;" and, "Okay, let's go with it."  When I saw and heard what had supposedly happened in Guyana I was indisposed to swallowing it hook, line and sinker.  How many people are even aware that Jones was an agnostic political activist?  I find it hard to believe hundreds of people, without any religious motivation, would voluntarily kill themselves and their children for political ideals.

It had seemed to me that the cult thing was already being pushed too hard by unknown parties.  At the time, in the seventies, there were multiple tens of thousands of newly formed home fellowships.  The government was rightly concerned about contingencies.  Some of their advisors are not the best judges of such things, however.  A related issue was tens of thousands of communitarian groups.  While there were many participating in new age or AmerIndian religions, Christian intentional communities were by far in the majority.  But, just ask yourself, how much have you heard about this?  What was (and is) happening, a "reFORMation" of the Church was another media hidden aspect of what among the youthful poor was called "Jesus People" and among the older, more settled set, "The Charismatic Movement."  Many of these home fellowships became the Independent, usually Charismatic Churches we have today, which are comprised of more than half of the people attending an Institutional Church in the USA now.  (There are various figures for how many are in the present resurgence of home fellowships.  Anywhere from more than a half of all who consider themselves Christian are involved with a home fellowship to around 14 % for whom it is their exclusive way to meet.)

Another non-local government intervention around the same time paid people to report anybody working out of their home.  I think issues of less free enterprise and more government control, taxes tied to registrations, and thought control issues had a near at hand purpose with the "cult" awareness being pushed in the media then.  The government wanted to be able to move against those they considered suspicious without drawing unwanted attention.  That has been somewhat successful considering how the popular media retold the story of the Waco incident.  Most people even today do not realize how common neighborhood Bible studies are.  Down the street or just around the corner, by calling it a "cult" the government was and is less exposed.

The more distant consideration in the seventies had to do with what such "grass-roots" reconstruction of Christianity would have on the rest of society.  Cliques in the bureachracy wanted to limit the effect of Christianity on the culture because of its dampening effect on their own plans.  We certainly see today that simultaneous with the continuing implementation of the radical "gay" agenda there is propagandizing against the "radical right" or "religious fundamentalists," just some of media's "buzz-words."  I've learned that most ordinary people "get" these kind of things; but, if shared in an organized group setting, often someone in charge will try to derail the conversation.

Also in the seventies, with Christians' loosening ties to denominationalism, it became popular to describe a broad section of Christians from various traditions and affiliations as "Evangelicals."  It had a wider appeal than what fundamentalism had come to represent.  The present discussion is how valid is the present use of "evangelical" as a label and what could replace it.  Just remember, what is said to be orthodoxy is the majority opinion of those who think they ought to hold the microphone.  And, we will have to give an account to God for every thought, word and deed done in the body.

I think we should remember that we are all brothers in Christ and should not label other groups as cults because of different interpretation of doctrines.

For in popular opinion when a person thinks of a cult it is usually one of extreme darkness, such as satanism, the dark legends of knights templars (although personally I think the templars were good warriors of God who vowed to protect the innocent) and so on.

So when we start throwing the idea that a large Christian group such as the evengelists, who are one of the most active Christian groups in preaching the good news of Christ to people and also do a large amount of prayer as a cult, it gives the world a very dark picture of who this group of people are and might even infect to the extend that the entire Christian religion is viewed as a cult, which is not good news for us.

The two main tests for a true christian demomination is the first by John
Test the spirits if they be of God, this is the spirit of an antichrist, he who denies that Jesus has come into the flesh.

Since all religions have some kind of prophecy or teaching given to them by someone, this is the first test to know if they be of God. So under this rule the Gnostics are not to be trusted, for they preach a different Gospel a gospel where Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh.

Second test is by their fruits you shall know them
A lot of the hell fire ministries do demonstrate love, by their giving to the poor and their missionaries to other countries. These people do have love, but they do not understand the purpose of Christ was to save us from death and sin, not from eternal hell. The lies and doctrines of devils inside the Church as made this lie a giant fortress in the minds of mainstream Christianity and it takes great strength and courage for any minister to first seek the truth and secondly to recognize this truth and repent for teaching error.
Satan is a powerful foe and this lie is not going to go away easilly. So don't be too proud when you are one who knows the truth of this doctrine and despise these other brothers and sisters for instead rejoice that you know the truth and pray for these brothers and sisters in Christ so that they too may enjoy the liberty of knowing salvation is offered for all mankind