TALK ABOUT THE HARD THINGS: NDE-OBE-VISIONS-BLIND PEOPLE SEE IN NDE

[Paul Hazelwood]

But when you speak of punishment it takes me right back to the barbaric threats that ARE in the Bible...the talk of "stripes" and "burning" and "worms", etc.

Your perception of biblical words is noted.  I see the metaphor of the bible to my own life that directs that barbaric language to where it is intended to go.  

That is all I have been saying,  while talking with me, you simply retain the religious view that directs biblical words to the external shell of our flesh and emotions.  Turn those same words towards the inner man to where they cut with a spiritual sword and they take on new meaning.   You can maintain that those barbaric words are in the bible as a negative,  but the view in which you argue against is not my view, it is what you wish to retain. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

Bobson Wrote

Perhaps you would like to tell this to the lady whose daughter has died? If you would be willing to do that, what makes you different from the fundamentalists who can tell her the same thing...with the main difference only being "forever" and "temporary"? Will you accept the responsibility for what happens when you tell her? Think about it this way...would you like to tell me of the terribly painful corrections my kind little mother and my dad are enduring? If so, why should I bow down to this God? Out of fear of getting the same thing?

I realize this was an answer to Jabcat but thought I would comment on it a bit.

You get no argument from me on the painstaking responsibility we can be faced with when we are put into a situation that could break someones emotions.   But the point I am making is if the womans daughter had a destiny to face who she is and as your poor choice of words put it  "Hurt" concerning that, then the issue with this woman really has nothing to do with trying to make someone face the truth.

It is often about rendering aid and comfort and if the time was right then maybe a discussion concering that type of thing will be appropriate.

I have heard Christians say some of the most distasteful things to someone in their time of grief.   Whether they are true or not never has been the issue, sometimes people need to heal and sometimes we just need to be quiet and offer comfort.

The truth may be that we go through "something" (you can word it however you like) but, that truth isn't necessarily an appropriate responce to someone grieving.

The woman did not need to know anything concerning what her daughter may be going through, or had gone through,  she needed assurance. 

Many people in this life need assurance even for themselves a few of us in the religious world (in comparison to the majority) wants to send that message to other people and we try daily.

[jabcat]

Bobson, I don't know that I really have a lot else to say right now.  Paul's response was a good one, with which I agree.  Love, kindness, and truth are not mutually exclusive.  I don't know what you describe as a 'fundamentalist' exactly, but attempting to understand and obey the Spirit-revealed Words of God is the course I recommend.  That does not exclude love, compassion, empathy, support, nor does it involve merciless, senseless torture.  There is a rightly dividing that must occur, and falling into an extreme on either side, I personally discourage.

God's Spirit will visit you in due time, open your eyes and give you faith to truly believe - on this side or the other.  There's a narrow path that leads to life and a broad path that leads to destruction (of all that is not of God and that cannot enter into the kingdom).  Some experience the discipline now as a son, some later as a hireling, in whatever form it requires to bring them into the kingdom.  God's the Judge, He's the Master, He knows what He's doing and needs to be done.

We could argue for an aion over our own subjective opinions.  I choose to do not do that.  In a joust between our carnal minds, nobody wins.  It's a spiritual issue that begins with the new birth - "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved";  and "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."
It's the Words of God that will ultimately stand - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."  Mathew 24:35.  Those are the words of not just 'a god', but God Almighty.  He's the Master.  He speaks and the wind and waves obey.  Yes, we should treat each other and His creation with respect - but not to the point of disrespecting the very One Who gives us each breath - by attempting to re-create Him in our image.   Our role is to "...humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time.." I Peter 5:6


At some point I may post one more piece of my thoughts I'd put together earlier, and unless I really feel compelled to do so (which I may a time or two - but not just for the sake of futile struggling) I probably won't have a whole else to say other than as a moderator in this thread.  At some point things will need to be held to the TM default setting of "the scriptures are reliable and to be treated with respect", and I may not be in the best position to ensure that if I'm posting a lot as a participant.

Respectful, honest, searching questions are encouraged.  Otherwise, things will monitored for adherence to the forum guidelines.

James.

[WhiteWings]

I came here looking...and I found some nice people...however I still found a God that I can't believe exists...namely, the God of pain and punishment.

That's exactly why I wrote you should look up the meaning of words.
On this forum people use hell, punishment/correction,  Lake of Fire, etc just as on a ET forum.
Partly because those words are in the Bible and partly because most/many on this forum has a (long) ET background.
But if you would read more on this forum (and main site) you would understand that when we use those words we assume the original defenitions not the paganised ET defentions. Perhaps you understood that we believe in a Catholic type purgatory with real fire.
For a more UR type of believe on fire see: This post (click here)

[Molly]

Quote from: Bobson on Today at 07:23:39 AM

I came here looking...and I found some nice people...however I still found a God that I can't believe exists...namely, the God of pain and punishment.

There are some very bad people who do some very bad things, and he is a God of Justice.  And, we all know what Justice is, although we might not be able to articulate it. 

So I look for scripture on justice.  But, he is also a God of mercy.

Psalm 89:14
Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

[Bobson]

I think I'm going to respectfully withdraw from this thread because any further discussion is likely only to be banned. It started out OK with Whitewings, and it became very positive and uplifting when "SQ" and "Rosered" got involved and posted their comments, and Molly added useful considerations...however it has now spiralled downward to a defending of doctrine perhaps out of concern by some that the "message" being talked about here was just TOO good, and so I perhaps have been tricked by satan (that's a pretty dirty trick that God permitted to happen)...continuing all the way down to those who don't adhere to painful punishment and fire being potentially banned.

It seems that the message that everyone who dies is safe and those who seem to be left behind can feel secure about those they love, is still TOO good a message to be accepted by some...fear and pain have to prevail. The purpose of the life review is for educating, revealing, learning, understanding...not for damning.

In reality, there is no torment at all...and that message eliminates all fear...perfect love casts out fear and the fact that we fear only shows that we have not really learned to love...but it seems that religions need to hold onto fear and punishment in order to remain exclusive. Love does not, and never will, mean  "anything goes"...it only means that to those who do not seem to have a sufficient understanding of love. To quote three well known words: "It is finished"...well, is it finished or not? If it really IS finished then why not move on to the next step of "love one another as I have loved you"? Why stay fixated on an event that is already finished? In my humble opinion, with the exception of Catholics I suppose, Christianity might be more appropriately termed "Paulianity". I am  not a moral relativist (as I have stated numerous times) and I have never advocated worshipping the creation and not the creator, yet it is still implied that I am doing this. I am anti-fear because it's not necessary and causes suffering and division.

This message of salvation is still conditional and exclusive to Christians only, except that the act of joining that exclusive club is extended to the afterlife instead of just this world. In other words, you still need to be a Christian or else you'll be rejected by God until you become one, it's just that you can become a Christian in the afterlife as well as in this world...that seems to be the main difference between this board and hardcore ET fundamentalists...and that you'll only be tormented for awhile instead of forever.
In reality, there is no torment at all (unless you want there to be)...and that message eliminates all fear...perfect love casts out fear and the fact that we fear only shows that we have not really learned to love...but it seems that religious systems need to hold onto fear and punishment in order to retain their exclusive status.

To quote three well known words: "It is finished"...well, is it finished or not? If it really IS finished then why not move on to the next step of "love one another as I have loved you"? Why stay fixated on an event that is already finished? In my humble opinion, with the exception of Catholics I suppose, Christianity might be more appropriately termed "Paulianity".

I honestly hoped to learn more here, and I hoped at the same time to also bring a message of "don't worry, don't be afraid" to people who were afraid to die and afraid of "burning" because it's just not true...but the message seems to be one that is too good to be true.

I'll withdraw from this because it isn't useful to me...not because I have anything against Jesus Christ or people in general...it's because I don't think God is a Christian, nor a Hindu, nor a Muslim, nor a Jew, nor a Shaman...and I don't think God has to rely on human beings to preserve doctrine.

I also don't think that God has specially "chosen" people who are the apple of his eye, nor that God was the one who actually commanded the dashing to pieces against rocks of suckling infants in the OT...I think PEOPLE commanded that...I also find it beyond imagination that God is limited to accepting only those who profess the name of Jesus Christ. I also tend to find it beyond imagination that the creator of the universe can be exclusively contained in a book of any kind.

It's this kind of exclusivity that divides people into groups of the saved and unsaved...which turns into groups that are against other groups who are seen as being opposed to the "real" God, and then it's very easy to go to the next step of thinking "God is on our side" which turns into fighting...which is pretty much what's happening in a lot of the world right now.

It seems to me that anyone who doesn't completely sync with the exclusively correct club, is deemed "lost". Islam says the same thing...if you won't acknowledge Mohammed and become Muslim you will burn forever...Hindus and Tibetans all claim that they are right and everyone else is wrong....much the same with Buddhists...and all react with indignance when faced with something that challenges their way of thinking. These exclusive groups all have one thing in common...they divide instead of unite. Worshipping of, and calling on the name of Jesus Christ, has almost completely obliterated his teachings...if the entire world exclusively followed his teaching of love of others and forgiveness there would be peace.

I assume, James, that unless I call on Jesus Christ to save me I will be left in darkness or fire in the afterlife until I do, I'll have to endure my painful punishment after that as well...is that correct? The bottom line is that either way, it will be done out of fear and through punishment masquerading as "love" or "correction" or "justice" or something.
One thing I am very thankful for, is that I know this is not true, so I am someone who is not vulnerable to that fear, and to me, this seems to be why I am pretty much rejected by most Christians...I know that perfect love (which is what God is) does not include fear.

And, unless this post gets removed, I would like to say to anyone who might read this...don't be afraid...and don't be afraid to die because you don't have to be...and God is not going to torment you either...I may not know much else, but this I know is true...and it truly is GOOD news. If even one person reads those words, and finds they're able to rest better tonight knowing they and all those they love who have passed from this world are safe...then at least something will have been accomplished by this thread.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Don't take it out on us bobson just because you failed miserably at discrediting the bible.  Better luck next time.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am  not a moral relativist (as I have stated numerous times) and I have never advocated worshipping the creation and not the creator, yet it is still implied that I am doing this. I am anti-fear because it's not necessary and causes suffering and division.

That seems to be the conflict your facing here though.  One one hand you want to talk about no worries and there is no torment and "Hurt" was a poor choice of words that you mentioned to me.  On the other hand you act as if people will be held accountable for their actions, but then play this sort of game trying to disguise what that really is.

From what you have written I can't see that it matters a hill of beans if you are a moral relativist or if you worship creation so what difference could it make if you are and do?

In fact,  perhaps if you would slow down a bit and get off your bible bashing kick and ask questions rather than replying with all your assumptions loaded in both barrels  you actually might get to see WHY some of us see how beautiful the biblical words are to us.

[Molly]

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

--1 Cor 13




"the perfect"

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

[Paul Hazelwood]

which turns into fighting.

You swung first here.

[WhiteWings]

however it has now spiralled downward to a defending of doctrine

You sound suprised that people on a Biblical forum talk about a Bible...?
People asking questions and not always agreeing isn't "sprialing down"
You seems to hold to a certain type/sub-group of NDEs. The happy NDEs but there are also others.
I bought an NDE book a year ago but never read it until you started this thread. Lots of happy NDEs. But also not so happy NDEs. Pitty you want to ignore such NDEs.

I said it a few messages earlier, Paul said it a bit (to) direct, it would make a big difference when you know how we view certain words, verses and parables. I spoke a few people in private and all see (good) possibilties to align NDEs with the Bible. We just approach it with more care than you prefer.

:Peace: :Peace2:

[jabcat]

Well, since it appears this thread may be winding down (and that's OK, because yes, there are limits to bashing the scriptures at TM, and IMO, we've about reached them) - I'll go ahead and post a part of some thoughts I'd put together several days ago.  Again, honest questions and searching is encouraged - simply insistent, persistent  proselytizing against the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ is not.  At some point it only brings dischord.     http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7383.msg84791#msg84791

WW, I agree with your assessment, and add this;  In what I understand as true, Biblical Ultimate Reconciliation, the scriptures are believed and trusted, yet there is an understanding there have been misconceptions, mistranslations, misunderstandings, and misinformation through the years that need to be reconsidered.  Some of the same words and phrases are used (because they're in the Bible - more specifically THE ORIGINAL GREEK AND HEBREW as White Wings recently pointed out) - words like torment, fire, heaven, grace, love - but also other words stressed such as aion, age, gehenna, divine purification, etc.  Regarding the "same words and phrases", there is a push to understand what those words really mean, not how orthodox religion has interpreted and taught them to mean;  while with the "other words and phrases", there is an attempt to see the truths in the scriptures that have been hidden through the past 1500 years, and that if properly factored in and understood, altogether can make a HUGE difference in doctrine and approach.  

Anyway, here's what I wrote specific to this thread;
"Without "thy Word (logos) is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path" (Ps. 119:105), the witness and direction of the Spirit within the Word - then we can wander off into our own vain imaginations (.."became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.." Romans 1:21);  and "..in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, that they may be judged -- all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness." 2 Thes. 2:9-12     For ever, O LORD, your word (logos) is settled in heaven. Ps. 119:89 (both Jesus as God's living Word in the flesh, and God's Word in Scripture).

If I tell you I had a dream or a vision last night, and I am 100% certain it was real. I've never had any such experience before. My wife was in the room, and she could tell I was "somewhere else" for 10 minutes. In this vision a bright Light came to me, and I felt very warm and happy. Out of the Light a voice said, "you don't need to follow Jesus. There are many ways to me. The god is within you, seek and you will find it within yourself. One day you will bow and confess (realize) that you in fact are your own lord, and in need of no other. Jesus was an example of love, and love is all you truly need. You will reach a point of understanding that. So from this day forward, no longer pay any attention to the things in the Bible. You now have a higher level of truth, it is directly from Me and this truth will set you free. Now go, live as you want - I don't care. You will one day find the totality of existence within and OF yourself. Peace and love to you beyond measure. Be filled with joy.

"What do you do with that, what do you test it against? Or in your mind, maybe I'm right? How would you know?  

[WhiteWings]

"What do you do with that, what do you test it against? Or in your mind, maybe I'm right? How would you know?

First trying to align/test with what I already know.
If that doesn't work then then the choice is
a] Ignore the vision.
b] Ignore (parts of) the Bible.

If b then you are no longer a Christian. It would be like vegitarian that eats meat...

I'm right? How would you know?

Right and wrong are based on reference points.
Your question isn't about right or wrong but what reference point to use.
I doubt it's possibly to pick a reference point with only facts.
But I think one can come close with iteration....

[jabcat]

iteration....

That's a pretty big word for me...I had to google it  :laughing7:

Yep, good points.  I understand there are still varying opinions, levels of understanding/interpretation/revelation, etc., but that we need the Spirit in the Word by which to judge and test things.  "...to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.   Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ."  Eph. 4:12-15

:thumbsup:

OK, I need to keep my word and mostly get out of this thread except to moderate.   :mblush:

[sheila]

 :2c:...sometimes we get a pretty narrow veiw of things,especially when the age old battle of good vs evil
is so upclose and personal.

....and that is exactly what it is..He designed this whoe good vs evil exercise for all His children to develope a gut level hatred for evil and heartfelt love for good.

  ...how many movies have you watched and rejoiced when the totaly evil villian was vanquinshed? The righteous indignation of the 'hero' that resulted in the putting down of the villian..and the foiling of all his evil plans.

well, the movie takes place on this earth...some vessels are given over to the evil roles,some to the good, some a mixture of good and evil......

  the climax...good triumphs over evil[it's in the program of the divine play]...curtain call..look..those who played the evil roles
take off their costumes and attend the full cast play,afterwards.

   It's been HIGH DRAMA ALL THE WAY..it's been hard to know who is truly evil and who is good...but we know this....
the evil at work during this divine drama is utterly destroyed...

all remove the costumes for the roles played...attend the banquet afterward and return to their homes.  It's been a real educational expierance..this upclose and personal expierance/exercize in good vs evil

[WhiteWings]

An article about NDEs by Gary: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ever-been-to-hell-and-back.html

[peacemaker]

"Tunnel vision, that of buying or selling the reproductive and creative imaginations of men."

peacemaker

[Universalist Catholic]

NDE's can be very controversial.  Theres some biological phenomena that occurs near death, something maybe with brain chemicals causing a vision of the afterlife.  But if anything, NDE's should teach us that God does deliver us from Hell.  In fact, according to some studies conducted by Dr. Ken Vincent, people who went through NDE's and did experience Hellish experiences usually came back believing in Universal Salvation and deliverance from Hell.  Take Howard Storm for example.  He still believes in unending punishment.  But he had a near death experience as an atheist where he was dragged down to hell, and prayed to God for deliverance, and was rescued from Hell. 

I'm a bit sketchy about this study, but apparently this Heart Surgeon Maurice Rawlings had nearly killed about four atheist patients during surgery and they claimed to have been plunged into hell.  However they were all delivered and became Fundamentalists.  I'm a bit sketchy about this whole account.  First off, Anesthesia can cause one to have extreme burning sensations and think they have gone to hell.  But if the doctor is doing serious heart surgeries, then he should have been fully aware of the side effects of Anesthesia.  But then again he accidentally nearly killed many patients and then resuscitated them back to life.  They end up coming back with some tale from Hell, just because they were in the wrong religion.  However if I recall, many of the patients prayed for deliverance from this place.  However the good doctor writes a couple books about this subject with some Fundamentalist agenda. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My grandmother and uncle had NDE's, when they had heart issues and died. My uncle said he heard the most beautiful choir he had ever heard, but didn't see them. Blessings...

[thinktank]

Sheila, is it possible the golden bowl is not the spirit itself but a container?  The golden bowl and the pitcher are containers , the wheel at the cistern and the silver cord brings up the water from the well.  This seems to be talking about ways to procure and carry water.



The woman at the well--

13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

--John 4

Some useful thought. We discussed about the silver cord recently. I wondered what the bowl was about ...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Bowl = grail = womb/soul; gold = full redemption, for your silver I'll give you gold.....He started me on a study of this right before I got swamped with hours.......all the furniture in the Most Holy place was made with gold.  :HeartThrob: