Hello to everyone. I stared this topic because I wanted to discuss some things on these subjects with Universal Christians. The reason is, I'm wondering if UR people have considered the other available explanations for NDEs, OBEs and alleged visions. I also wonder if they consider those other explanations viable. I'm not talking about materialistic atheist explanations...I'm talking about potentially supernatural explanations that seem to disagree with the Bible.
I also would like to say that I don't wish to attemtp to invalidate anyone...the further I go, I realize the less I know, so who am I to invalidate anyone. I'm interested in hearing thoughts on these subjects...and I'm also hoping to make statements that might challenge some of those thoughts and I'm interested to see any responses to that. Again, I'm not seeking to invalidate anyone and I don't have an agenda.
As for me, I actually am also looking for reasons to believe the Bible...as well as reasons to believe Jesus Christ, etc., so in our discussion I probably will bring up some questions about these things as well, I hope that's OK.
I also would like to say that I sometimes feel as though my writing style can come across as "sharp" (if I can put it that way)...and so, if I write in such a way that it seems to anyone participating to be that way...please accept my apologies up front, because I do not mean to be that way at all. I sometimes feel as though I find it hard when it comes to message boards because everything is simply typed words, without being able to hear the person's tone of voice, etc., which if possible, might be something totally different in reality, than what it looks like on paper.
Please join in the discussion.
I will start off by saying that an NDE experience happened to me. I had no prior knowledge of NDEs or OBEs, etc. In other words, I saw myself from up near the ceiling looking down, was able to turn side to side, had peripheral vision, was drawn into a darkness, saw a light, stopped right in front of it, the brilliance of the light within the area of light is hard to explain because I don't have anything to compare it to. There were people there and I spoke at length to one of them.
I returned from this area of light, back through the darkness and through an opening in the darkness that I came through, and back into the room where my body was. Upon re-entering the room I slowed down dramatically, looked side to side again, and came down on top of my body.
It was very shocking to me, when this happened, and I was shaking upon return, although I'm not sure why. This was not a "heaven" that I expected in any way. In fact, the "existence" in the area of this light was very much like this physical world.
Since then I've become aware of many experiences similar to this and I also was puzzled at first as to how they could all be different. To my surprise, I found the answer to this question within the people's experiences as told to them by those they spoke with during the experience. It seems the common answer was that everyone sees things that are familiar to them because if they did not they would be afraid...imagine if a Hindu saw Christian concepts...or if a Christian saw Hindu concepts, Jewish concepts, etc.
It seems that Christians conclude that everything that doesn't include Jesus is demonic. Yet, I'm not sure why everything would have to include Jesus, or even why Jesus would insist that he must be included.
Howard Storm returned from his experience promoting Christianity and the "reality" of hell...yet virtually nothing of his experience seems compatible with Christianity. Certainly his "hell" (as he calls it) is not remotely consistent with the typical Christian "hell". From what I can gather, it seems that "hell" does not exist even from a Biblical standpoint, and it also seems to me that the concept of eternal punishment is a man-made concept that was totally absent to the Jews and still is, today.
So how are people seeing what appears to be traditional Christian "hell"? First, the vast majority that this happens to are already fundamentalist Christians, who could already be obsessed with hell...many are. They seem to see it under certain circumstances:
1-They expect it
2-It has been a major focal point of their life
3-They think they deserve it or are going there
4-They have lived somewhat "dark" lives
They then return and proselytize about the reality of "hell" fiercely, without putting any further research into other experiences and other possibilities as to why they saw what they saw. How does one see something that for all intents and purposes does not exist? Some claim that consciousness creates "reality"...in other words, as your thoughts are, so you are. Although I can't say that I have a lot of knowledge about this book, but, it seems that the Tibetan Book of The Dead describes what is happening in NDEs relatively well...better than how some claim the Bible does.
Regarding demons and the devil...the hardest part of Christianity for me to comprehend is the creation of all things by a God, that suddenly went wrong, and that omnipotent God either did not know it would happen before-hand, or didn't care. This God seems very prone to mistakes and then having to come up with backup plans...it doesn't seem very believable to me...it sounds more like a human concept than an actual creator of the universe.
On that subject, it seems inconceivable to me that there would be some kind of a "fall"...in other words, an oversight on the part of the omnipotent creator who would then realize he needed a backup plan to save all humanity from either "hell" or from eternal death...whichever you believe. This is inconceivable to me, although I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.
What is also inconceivable to me is the Christian thought that a "devil" somehow was crazy enough to rebel against the supreme creator and then was kicked out of heaven along with a legion of other rebels who were also crazy enough to wish to dethrone their creator. I assume these legions are understood to be "demons" according to Christians. On top of all of this, the creator cast this "devil" and "demons" to the earth and permits them to trick, torment, and deceive all mankind! Then, when humans fall victim to these same "demons", the creator who permitted this to happen, sees fit to punish the humans for what he himself has permitted!
This is unimaginable to me...it doesn't seem possible. I have since discovered that the Jews state that there is no "hell" and that if one passes into Gehinnom the longest stay is 12 months...and this is for spiritual correction...not punishment at all. They also say there is no devil either. They say that "Lucifer" is a Latin word for "day star, son of the dawn" which is actually Venus, but refers to the fall of a Babylonian king who persecuted the Jews...yet Christians seem to have turned this into some kind of a supernatural devil who has powers all to himself and on his own, independant of God. How can this be?
The Jews refer to "satan" as "the satan" or "sutan"...except they claim this "satan" is simply an angel with a dirty job who is doing God's bidding for him. They cite "Job" as proof of this, and refer to "the satan" as entering the very same kingdom that he is supposed to be kicked out of, according to Christians. They claim that the "satan" is doing God's bidding and is defined as "hinderer" which gives us the opportunity to do evil or to do good...in other words the "hinderer" aka "the satan" is doing God's bidding so that we have a choice of evil or good...the "satan" is actually an element of free will...and that without this same "satan" there would be no free will.
Yet, Christians see this "satan" as a devil with enormous power, yet whom God will not destroy and terminate, for some reason unknown to me, and permits this "devil" to wreak havoc on humanity and then punishes, annihilates or torments the humans after that! I do not understand this concept. It seems like a God of mistakes and backup plans...it doesn't seem to me like a realistic creator of the universe.
Further, if as the Jews claim, there is no "hell" and no "devil", then how can there be demons? How can there be legions of fallen angels if there never was a fall to begin with? A rabbi has told me that "you will find the satan within YOU yourself, overcome it". This makes more sense to me than the Christian concept does, although I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.
To finish this statement, it seems to me that the God of Jews and Christians is supposed to be the same God...yet the Christians' God is so vastly different than the Jews God that it seems impossible to reconcile the two. And, I wonder how this could be? Is it possible Christians fashioned their own God? At least on the surface, the Jews idea of God appears to make more sense, although I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
The Jews also seem to state that original sin is a myth, they also claim that death did not enter the world because of Adam and Eve, because they were already created mortal, and they were kicked out of the garden so that they would not eat of the tree that would make them IM-mortal. Is the Christian old testament different from the Tanak? If so, why?
Anyway, these are all the things that I was hoping to discuss here. Feel free to comment and discuss this with me. I have more to say about NDEs, etc. as well as other questions about these theological ideas.
Thank you.
I'm sorry for another post...I just forgot to mention...on the subject of "visions"...I'm not sure that I can give much credibility to "visions" of people who perceive things while in a normal waking state that corresponds perfectly to what they already believe...for example, the numerous Catholic saints who who have visions of things that are 100% Catholic...in the case of fundantalist Christians, they receive "prophecy" that is virtually always corresponds with their "angry God"...usually consisting of chastisement for one reason or another. Then, there are the "visions" of liberal Christians who perceive things that are always "liberal" and correspond quite perfectly with what they already believe.
I do not afford the same credibility of these as to NDEs because NDEs very often include veridical descriptions of events, conversations, etc., from a vantage point that would be impossible if the people were not somehow out of their body. In fact many of these NDEs contain corroborated verification of conversations had by people great distances away from the experiencer, as well as corroborated verification of the activities of relatives of the experiencer, while being visited by the experiencer who was out of their body. And we haven't even begun to speak about the people who are born blind that are suddenly able to see and describe events and objects from an impossible vantage point. For me, this indicates that something more is happening than simply having a "vision" that corresponds perfectly to what you have already been taught, while in a perfect waking state.
And this is only taking into consideration the host of Christian "visons"...don't forget there are Hindu, Buddhist and Shaman "visions" as well...not everyone who has a claimed "vision" is seeing Jesus Christ or Mary, his mother.
QuoteSo how are people seeing what appears to be traditional Christian "hell"? First, the vast majority that this happens to are already fundamentalist Christians, who could already be obsessed with hell...many are. They seem to see it under certain circumstances:
1-They expect it
2-It has been a major focal point of their life
3-They think they deserve it or are going there
4-They have lived somewhat "dark" lives
Quote from: Bobson on February 21, 2010, 11:42:39 AM
I'm not sure that I can give much credibility to "visions" of people who perceive things while in a normal waking state that corresponds perfectly to what they already believe...for example, the numerous Catholic saints who who have visions of things that are 100% Catholic...in the case of fundantalist Christians, they receive "prophecy" that is virtually always corresponds with their "angry God"...usually consisting of chastisement for one reason or another. Then, there are the "visions" of liberal Christians who perceive things that are always "liberal" and correspond quite perfectly with what they already believe.
If people only have NDEs about what they believe then either God for some reasons varies the content of the visions or those people had nothing more than dreams. Plus I think in many cases just a fantasy to make money.
I've also heared about muslims getting a Christian NDE. But that sounds a lot like those money making chain letters "I never believed I could make money with this system but..."
If that muslim switched to Christianity surely only Christians would use that NDE. Muslims won't report that NDE.
So if NDEs are real they most often are used selectively.
It doesn't seem logical to dismiss experiences where people are able to recount a series of events taking place around them (often in remote locations) from an impossible vantage point, and then have it verified by the people involved, including doctors...and then to state these are nothing other than dreams. I have never dreamed while I had zero brain activity and no heart beat...much less been able to recount conversations with family members hundreds of miles away (later verified) and witness a medical teams actions from up near the ceiling, have you?
Also, do people born blind suddenly see, describe the appearance of curtains in the emergency rooms, etc., in dreams? How would this happen? With due respect, to me it sounds a bit like you are attempting to invalidate these experiences for some reason...this is sort of like reductionism in reverse.
I would agree that in some cases there are probably people who make up stories to make money...but there are people who do this in every circumstance of life...I hardly think it is possible to write off all humanity as crooks simply because a few might be...the same would apply to NDEs. Also, the fact that people's entire lives are changed as a result of the experience does not jive with "made up fantasies". Some have given up fortunes...such as Gordon Allen, who has had 5 of these experiences.
I'm not aware of a Muslim having an entirely Christian NDE...it's possible I suppose, I'm just not aware of it...and yes, if that did happen I doubt very much that Muslims would report it...but isn't that what a lot of people do? Most people are not open to anything that contradicts what they already believe...why? I can only speculate that it might have something to do with cognitive dissonance...the need to keep their belief valid to themselves and so they automatically reject anything that would appear to invalidate it. Thanks for your comment.
And yes, it does seem very true that people attempt to use NDEs very selectively, I agree. And also, it has to be kept in mind that the majority of people begin to prosletyze after such an experience...they will latch onto something and run with it...whether that's Christianity, new age, etc. Yet, when one looks closely at the experience it often contains very little of what they have begun to preach. They fill in the blanks, so to speak. In other words, if they're in darkness for a period of time, they'll later insist that this is the "outer darkness" that the Bible speaks of, when in reality nothing of the sort was ever conveyed to them.
Also, regarding the dream hypothesis...there is a man whose name is George Rodonaia, who was a Soviet scientist as well as a doctor and atheist. He was killed by KGB, spent 3 days in the morgue waiting for an autopsy. While in the morgue, George was able to travel at will, claimed to have been able to "see" people's thoughts, and in fact, visited a friend who had just had a baby. The baby was crying and no one knew why, he "spoke" to the baby through what he calls "mental spiritual communication" and she stopped crying.
Upon returning to physical life, and once he was able to speak, he informed those same friends that the reason the new born baby was crying was because she had a fractured hip and that this was the diagnosis they were seeking...his diagnosis regarding the new born's hip was then verified by doctors as correct. How would he do this if he was merely dreaming?
In fact, the video testimony of this is available to view online.
Quote from: Bobson on February 21, 2010, 12:46:44 PM
It doesn't seem logical to dismiss experiences where people are able to recount a series of events taking place around them (often in remote locations) from an impossible vantage point, and then have it verified by the people involved, including doctors...and then to state these are nothing other than dreams. I have never dreamed while I had zero brain activity and no heart beat...much less been able to recount conversations with family members hundreds of miles away (later verified) and witness a medical teams actions from up near the ceiling, have you?
That's let's call it a medical NDE. I've read several of them. Indeed several have been verified. But the religious NDEs about heaven/hell are not verified.
And it are, of course, those religious hell NDEs you read so often about. As you wrote they quite often align with what the person already believed.
The medial NDEs can often be verified the religious ones not..
QuoteAlso, do people born blind suddenly see, describe the appearance of curtains in the emergency rooms, etc., in dreams? How would this happen? With due respect, to me it sounds a bit like you are attempting to invalidate these experiences for some reason...
I'm not. But I part of the NDEs are fantasies, dreams. So I think it's important to seperate fact from fiction.
QuoteI'm not aware of a Muslim having an entirely Christian NDE...it's possible I suppose, I'm just not aware of it...and yes, if that did happen I doubt very much that Muslims would report it...but isn't that what a lot of people do?
No.
Also; was the man really a muslim? All 'proof' is site that tries to proof hell by NDE's (IIRC)
QuoteMost people are not open to anything that contradicts what they already believe...why? I can only speculate that it might have something to do with cognitive dissonance...the need to keep their belief valid to themselves and so they automatically reject anything that would appear to invalidate it.
I think many are simply afraid they are tricked by satan. So they run away from anything new/different. Learning often involves questuioning your own believes.
I wish I knew how to use the "quote" feature that you are using WhiteWings!
Anyway, since I do not know how...I agree entirely about the "hell" thing, and I'm certainly not starting this discussion to try and "prove" hell :) because I cannot put the majority of the world's population into destruction...at least not while I'm using my heart and some common sense. I do not accept hell, and that's one of the reasons I'm glad for the presence of this website in the world and I certainly have no intention of trying to "prove" it does exist...the evidence that it does NOT is so overwhelming that it should be enough to persuade anyone.
It was somewhat confusing at first because when it happened I was an atheist...maybe an agnostic, at best. I was very puzzled as to how it could be possible that I had a vantage point from up above myself and able to look around because this was supposed to be impossible! What happened after that continued to be puzzling because I still could not see how any of it was possible...yet it was exhilarating and fascinating at the same time...it was a very logical and orderly sequence of events. In order to write this off as a hallucination of some kind I would have to write off the rest of my entire life as a hallucination.
I suppose one of the things that I'm asking is, how do people here, who subscribe to UR view these experiences from the point of view that many if not most, do not include the presence of Jesus Christ?
Although I'm willing to say that some of these experiences may not be "true" and some people may even concoct them for the sake of fame...however, the other reason I'm bringing this up is because the Tibetan Book of The Dead seems to give a description of what one encounters after dying, that is really quite similar to what is happening in NDEs..and to summarize, it sepaks of "white light", etc. and that your mind is somewhat in control from the point of view that there are "projections" of reality. It's hard to explain and I'm not an expert on that book.
How do we separate the fact from fiction, in your opinion? I know most Christians will say it has to have Jesus in it or be absolutely consistent with the Bible or it is not valid. I must admit that this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I also am very interested to know people's knowledge as to how the Jews ended up with a "hinderer" who is doing God's bidding...and the rest of Christendom ended up with a tormenting "devil"...this is a total mystery to me...after all, the two Gods are supposed to be the same yet they seem to be so different that I wonder if someone concocted a God of their own desires? How does a "hinderer" who works for God become a devil?
Why would God punish people for falling victim to a tormenting devil that he has permitted to exist? Where is this devil in the tanak?
And I also agree that part of learning involves questioning your own beliefs...and that is part of what I am doing in this discu
ssion.
QuoteI suppose one of the things that I'm asking is, how do people here, who subscribe to UR view these experiences from the point of view that many if not most, do not include the presence of Jesus Christ?
Are you a Jew who has had a near death type experience where you left your body? First of all, let me say, I believe you--I have experienced similar myself, twice. Both experiences for me were benign and did not include any other presence than myself. I was a 'Christian' at the time of both, but, shall we say, 'lapsed.'
I would encourage you to start reading the Old and New Testaments. God himself will answer your questions. I can tell by what you are saying that you know you have experienced something profound, but now you want some answers. If I could be so bold, you won't find them in such writings as the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
Every major religion honors and respects Jesus. Even the demons know who he is and tremble at his name. Learn who he is, and you will have your answers.
Luke 10:17
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."
I was one of the most sceptical people you could ever meet, until one day, while out driving, me and a good trusted friend, (and even more down to earth than me), encountered a UFO.
Noone could ever convince me or her otherwise of what we saw.
We were told it was a 'cloud', 'army maneouvers in the area', a 'hot air balloon' etc by various groups and people, including the ministry of defence etc.
Well, no. It wasn't a 'cloud' or a 'balloon', it was a solid, massive, sleek black triangular shaped craft that sat some 30 feet directly above our heads covered in lights and making no sound whatsoever...Way more technologically advanced than ANYTHING I have ever seen...It was like seeing an iceberg in a desert, that's how much it shouldn't have been there...It made no sense at all and seemed to break every law of physics, especially when it shot off into the sky in the blink of an eye and was 'gone'. (Some hot air balloon that).
For too long, people who have seen such phenomenon have been branded 'stupid' or 'mad' or 'deluded' etc.
I'm not saying that what I saw was from another world. Although I believe it was. But I am saying that I saw a UFO and have never seen anything like it before or since. We saw the UFO in around 1998...We didn't even have mobile phones back then, much less phones with a built in camera, which is a great pity, because I could have got some fantastic photos!
John Lennon saw one, Ali saw one, Presidents, Flight crew, astronauts....And when you see one yourself there is no room for doubt....Which brings me to the subject of NDE's.
Who am I to say to someone "You didn't have an NDE! You just had a dream! It must have been the drugs you were on! It was because you had no oxygen your brain just played a trick on you!" How could I be so arrogant to assume such, to someone who 'saw what they saw?'
Thats the same as people saying to me and my friend "You both just saw a cloud".
Eh....Hello! I know what a flippin cloud looks like I see hundreds of them every day!
So it made me research the NDE phenomena myself because you do learn to trust what 'some' people are saying on the matter, especially if you know that person.
I don't believe NDE's go against the bible at all...Nor do I believe that UFO's in anyway go against what the Bible teaches.
Jesus said he had much more to tell his disciples, but they wouldnt be able to bear it right now.
I believe Ezekiel was on board a UFO.
There is a whole website devoted to the subject of 'UFO's and the Bible'.
http://www.bibleufo.com/
The thing that always struck me about NDE's is the fact that these people no longer fear death and they change their lives....They become more unmaterialistic, they start to care more about their fellow man...Athiests who have had NDE's become a believer in a 'God' or 'Creator'...Hellish NDE reporters/sufferers, always cite the experience as being the 'tool' they needed to 'change their lives', or if they were dead long enough, they report that although they went to a 'hellish plane', they were delivered from it, or that they knew that it would not last 'forever'.
Oh it's a wierd world!
Right now I'm studying the http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
These are 'official' documents from the national archives (british government) about UFO's which they have had to release to the public....Thousands of reports from regular people who reported UFO's to the governement in the past....Very interesting reading indeed! Esspecially when 'we know the truth' as it were, because I have seen one with my own eyes.
I feel that Universalism fits in rather well with what has been discovered about life after death from NDE reporters...That hell is not eternal (there is a way out of it), that we reap what we sow, that we are judged, that all people eventually reach higher planes (until God is all and in all as the Bible teaches), and that (as people who have had an NDE have said), "God is love, or the 'creator' is love...The reason to live is 'love'" and so on.
It's a fascinating subject, which I do take with a pinch of salt, but any reasonable minded person would do that with anything and always remain open minded.
There are always people out to make money from everything....The Bible, NDE's, UFOS....Fakes everywhere, and it is hard to seperate the true from the fake, because there are a lot of liars out there...And anything to do with life after death or aliens is a hot topic and always makes a good seller.
QuoteI'm not saying that what I saw was from another world. Although I believe it was. But I am saying that I saw a UFO and have never seen anything like it before or since. We saw the UFO in around 1998..
I have a friend who saw one in 1968 over a military base. Why would you assume it's not our own technology? Isn't the simplest explanation always the best? Occam's razor.
Main Entry:
Oc·cam's razor Variant(s): also Ock·ham's razor \ˈä-kəmz-\
Function: noun
Etymology: William of Occam
Date: circa 1837
: a scientific and philosophic rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that
the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities
Well Molly if our own world had the technology to travel at the speed this UFO did which I seen, why not do away with all the primitive airplanes and helicopters we have?
If earthlings can make massive aircraft that make no sound (no more noise pollution), use seemingly no fuel (no engine sound to be heard) which could get you from New York to Scotland in 5 mins instead of many hours....Why not let the public know about them or indeed do away with primitive Jumbos and suchlike?
When you see something that is 'impossible' and 'unearthly', what explanation can one come too?
There are millions of planets, which have been around for millions more years than Earth...Should I really be so closed minded and arrogant to assume that Earth is the be all and end all? Especially in light of what top astronauts and military aircraft pilots etc have said?
All I am saying is that I dont believe this UFO was from our world, because I dont believe we have that technology, (not now, and certainly not back in 1998 when I saw the UFO), and lets bear in mind that there are reports from much much longer back in time of UFO's, indeed before any form of 'aircraft' was even invented.
You say you had an NDE...Well did you? Or were you just dreaming? Full of drugs perhaps? Wishful thinking? After all, the simplest explanation is always the best (according to you).
QuoteWell Molly if our own world had the technology to travel at the speed this UFO did which I seen, why not do away with all the primitive airplanes and helicopters we have?
Now that's a good question. The answer should come quickly to mind.
[clue: For the same reason that automotive technology has not significantly changed in the last hundred years.]
Wow, you know everything! Its incredible! (Incredibly arrogant).
Quote from: friendofmankind on February 21, 2010, 04:54:39 PM
Wow, you know everything! Its incredible! (Incredibly arrogant).
Are you somehow invested in believing this is alien technology?
Let me ask you this, what do you think is going on behind the secret, top secret, for eyes only, beyond top secret classifications every government in the western world maintains? You think they are playing tiddlywinks in back rooms? Maybe they are discussing, oh what are we ever going to do about those nasty aliens, and wringing their hands? And, they don't want us to see how scared they are? So they have to keep it all secret? lol
Wow...you just dont stop...They should give you an arrogance award...seriously, its so evident with you in almost every post. :icon_flower:
It always amazes me how someone (you) who never seems to get up off their pc and spends almost every waking hour on forums knows so damn much about everything that goes on in the world...Amazing.
:happyclap:
Now hopefully the person who started the post will at least have some form of reasoning ability so that we can get a 2 sided convo going, instead of...IM RIGHT! YOUR WRONG, I HAD AN NDE! YOU DIDNT SEE A UFO! CARS HAVENT CHANGED FOR THE LAST 100 YEARS (cough). Etc. Yawn.
Its just no fun talking to someone who is so arrogant they already have their mind made up about everything....there is no debate with you, just sheer arrogance. (I already know it all but you dont).
It actually shows you know bugger all to start with, and is very tedious and boring, and with that Molly, I dont want to talk to you again (or rather....I dont want you to 'talk' to me again, since you dont listen anyway, you just blabble, cinvinced in your own mind that your right and everyone else is wrong, with a closed mind.
Still love you tho, dont take it to heart...I just dont like wasting time on worthless pursuits.
QuoteWow...you just dont stop...They should give you an arrogance award...seriously, its so evident with you in almost every post.
On the contrary, it takes a good deal of humility to admit that you know about as much about the real advancement of science in the 21st century as a primitive tribe in the deep jungle who has never seen the 20th century. To think otherwise, is the real arrogance.
PS I don't do drugs.
QuotePS I don't do drugs.
I'm convinced.
Quote from: Bobson on February 21, 2010, 02:26:15 PM
I wish I knew how to use the "quote" feature that you are using WhiteWings!
Several methods
1- Top right of each message you find a Quote button to quote the comoplete message.
2- Just copy and paste parts and type [*quote] at the start and [*/quote] at the end. Without the the *
3- Copy paste. Select/highlight with your mouse. Click the text balloon button. 1 row above the smilies. 2nd from the right.
when I was seven,a ruptured appendix and too much either
caused me to leave my body. I was on the ceiling looking
down at my body,seeing the tops of the heads of the surgeons.
I had a 7 yrolds concept of what was going on...I thought it
was funny and like a trick on the surgeons who thought I was
asleep and didn't know I was watching them.
Our spirit is a golden bowl with a silver cord that anchors it to
our fleshly body..this cord can be lengthened...and the spirit
move from the body..but still attached.When it is severed..this
physical /spiritual body connection is finished.
After the surgery I thought maybe had just been looking at
the overhead mirror,maybe. But then I realized that cottonballs
with vaseline had been placed over my eyes before the either
was given me.
After we are reaped/circumcized from our fleshy body,we are
drawn to certain areas. we gather there with others that have
been reaped...the angels call that a sheaves..they direct us
further on our journey of return into the Holy city.
Eccl 12;6 Remember Him-before the silver cord is severed or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,or the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the earth,and the spirit returns to God who gave it..
Now, regarding the triangle shaped craft. In August of 2001
I was given a dream vision of a formation of such crafts flying
about in formation in the mid-heavens. The lighting was murky
in the vision around me..and I looked up and watched them..
subsequently I felt these creepy crawly sensations on my body
that were the locusts in Rev...and they did not harm me, just
their crawling bugged me,no sting.So I knew it was time for the
fifth seal to be opened on the word of God.
Rev 6;9 and Rev 9;6 Rev 16;10 of course I knew spiritual
warfare was taking place and I had His seal from this vision,due
to the locust not stinging me[the servants of God are not
harmed by this first woe...for they have already repented and
given the Glory to God.]
the last bowl is poured out on the air...of which the prince of
the power of the air is satan...being handed over to satan for
the destruction of the flesh can make a man pray for death..the
last trumpet results in the fall of the dominion of the Kingdom
of Darkness
Do I understand the triangle shaped craft?What they represent spiritually? Not really...we know they are a war machination
associated with spiritual warfare,locusts and preceding the drying up of the Euprhates to prepare the way for the kings of the East...three evil spirits[black/air/tool] that look like frogs
that come out of the mouth of the dragon. I beleive they are the Kingdom of darkness,/Babylon the harlot Jewish/Christian and Muslem religions of which the Jerusalem in bondage is
divided into three parts[earthquake] A cage of demons,full
of evil spirits,doctrines of hate and division.
where will all this spiritual warfare lead? In the destruction of the lies/evils/corruptions of those that have been reigning on earth
Now, what I've put out here,is just for thought, may the spirit of God clarify it to us all
QuoteOur spirit is a golden bowl with a silver cord that anchors it to
our fleshly body..this cord can be lengthened...and the spirit
move from the body..but still attached.When it is severed..this
physical /spiritual body connection is finished.
Yes, I've seen that cord. I shot out into space and way below me was the earth, as a planet in black space, and a silver cord attaching me, like an umbilical cord. I could no longer see my body but I knew that if the cord broke, I would not return.
1Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth...
6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. --Ecclesiastes 12
Sheila, is it possible the golden bowl is not the spirit itself but a container? The golden bowl and the pitcher are containers , the wheel at the cistern and the silver cord brings up the water from the well. This seems to be talking about ways to procure and carry water.
The woman at the well--
13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
--John 4
Yep! thats right....the vessels of the Lord that hold water,oil
bread etc. Golden or clay....holy because of what was inside it
the word of God or the breath of the Almighty.
I knew it was not quite right,shortly after I posted it
Proverbs 27;17 as iron sharpens iron,so one man sharpens another. thanks for helping straighten it out,Molly
loved your post,
Sheila
What a lovely thought! God pours out his love into the golden bowl of our hearts, minds, and souls. His love is the water of life everlasting.
Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
hearts"
G2588
καρδία
kardia
kar-dee'-ah
Prolonged from a primary κάρ kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).
Thank You WW for the cut paste high light lesson... A
8And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
9According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Exodus 25:29
And thou shalt make the dishes thereof, and spoons thereof, and covers thereof, and bowls thereof, to cover withal: of pure gold shalt thou make them.
"bowl"
H4518
מנקּית
menaqqı̂yth
men-ak-keeth'
From H5352; a sacrificial basin (for holding blood): - bowl.
2 Timothy 2:20
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
"vessel"
G4632
σκεῦος
skeuos
skyoo'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a vessel, implement, equipment or apparatus (literally or figuratively [specifically a wife as contributing to the usefulness of the husband]): - goods, sail, stuff, vessel.
Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
QUESTION:Are you a Jew who has had a near death type experience where you left your body?
ANS: No, I'm not a Jew. Yes, this experience has happened to me and it was confusing at first because I did not see how such a thing as viewing yourself and being able to look around the room, from an impossible vantage point above the body, could be possible. What happened next was absolutely stunning...I was intact, functioning, thinking rationally and normally throughout, was drawn into darkness, saw a light, came right up to it and it seemed that there was another world that was "brilliant", there were people there and one of them spoke with me. However, as I said, I am not a Jew.
COMMENT: That hell is not eternal (there is a way out of it), that we reap what we sow, that we are judged, that all people eventually reach higher planes (until God is all and in all as the Bible teaches), and that (as people who have had an NDE have said), "God is love, or the 'creator' is love...The reason to live is 'love'" and so on.
ANS: It seems to me that there is no judgement other than what one imposes on themselves. In fact, in this experience, one "becomes" the other people who you have interacted with...and so you feel everything that those others did, positive or negative, and you also "become" the others who your actions, words and thoughts have "rippled" down to. This also seems to me to be a PERFECT form of "judgement" because no God is judging you...which in essence would mean that God actually DOES follow his own advice of "judge not lest you be judged"...you judge yourself and what could be more effective than that? I also wonder if it might also be true that you are already forgiven...but can you forgive yourself? Once you fully understand that you are already forgiven, and you can forgive yourself as well, you then more fully understand the real nature of "love". This also would seem to negate "punishment" so to speak...I often wonder exactly what purpose "punishment" would serve except the human desire to inflict suffering on someone else in order to appease themselves because they themselves have suffered? Surely a God would be beyond such human reasoning? Any "punishment" would be inflicted on you by YOU not by any God...until you realize that are already forgiven and accept it...and thus, understand what "love" really means.
COMMENT: I have a friend who saw one in 1968 over a military base. Why would you assume it's not our own technology? Isn't the simplest explanation always the best? Occam's razor.
ANS: Respectfully, Molly, I feel that you are oversimplifying things. Yes, Occam's razor might be true in some cases, perhaps even many cases, but that does not mean it is some kind of an absolute law. I am usually indifferent to UFOs but I do not think that everyone who claims to have seen one is simply mistaken, or making it up. I recently saw video footage of a few particular doctors who have removed objects that people claimed were "implanted" in them by UFO beings...when analyzed at an independant laboratory, the result that came back was that the material analyzed was unknown to science. How can this be?
I wish the poster who spoke of the Tibetan Book Of The Dead would clarify what he knows and understands about this book...as I understand it, this book seems to describe what is happening in NDEs extensively and even seems to be relatively accurate...although I do not claim to be an expert. To me, it seems that NDEs actually seem to be contrary to the Bible, not supported by it. NDEs virtually never refer to being judged by a God or by Jesus Christ...but rather, they speak of judging themselves. Also the Tibetan Book Of The Dead describes "projections" of reality, which sort of seems to be happening in NDEs, it speaks of "white light", etc. It also seems to speak of "demons" as being in your "mind"...a projection of your mind...not that they are "real". Does the earlier poster have knowledge that he could share about this book, etc.?
I'm also not convinced that God is a person however I'm open to be convinced otherwise. I have seen two different translations of...."God is A spirit" and "God IS spirit". When I see this I see a HUGE difference, akin to "God IS love"....not that God is FULL of love or lovING..but IS love. Now, if God is A spirit then that's pretty small...but it God IS spirit, then that is much bigger and encompasses ALL of spirit...can anyone comment on this please?
I would also like to know more about the theology part of things...I do not understand why the Jews have a "hinderer" (THE satan) and Christendom has a DEVIL (named satan)...For the Jews this "satan" has no power in and of himself at all, yet for Christians this "devil" is nearly as powerful as their God himself...and has been cast out by God, and permitted to torment humans, which then results in their punishment...I do not understand this. How did the hinderer, the satan, suddenly become a powerful devil? As I said, the God of the Jews and Christians is supposed to be the same, yet each God seems so different, how could God possibly have arrived at the Christian God from such a different God of the Jews? How does a devil who is cast out, suddenly return to the very kingdom he is supposed to be cast out from, in Job? The Jews (and many others) claim that there was no "fall" at all...that the story is referring to a Babylonian king who persecuted the Jews...how can this become a devil? Yet in the new testament this "devil" makes a strong appearance and seems to have enough power on his own to be able to promise Jesus Christ all the world's kingdoms if he will worship him? This does not sound at all like the original "the satan" of the old testament or the tanakh..how can this be?
I do not write all of this to challenge anyone...I'm simply looking for explanations from people.
A POSTING TO SUMMARIZE MY EARLIER QUESTIONS:
I suppose one of the things that I'm asking is, how do people here, who subscribe to UR view these experiences from the point of view that many if not most, do not include the presence of Jesus Christ?
How do we separate the fact from fiction, in your opinion? I know most Christians will say it has to have Jesus in it or be absolutely consistent with the Bible or it is not valid. I must admit that this doesn't make a lot of sense to me because I have a hard time fathoming that a God could be entirely contained in any book...especially a book filtered through the minds of people, and subject to those same people's desires and wishes.
MOLLY: First of all, let me say, I believe you--I have experienced similar myself, twice. Both experiences for me were benign and did not include any other presence than myself.
ANS: Yes, Molly, the experienced happened to me and it was tremendously profound...I couldn't understand how it was possible and so I was confused at first. Could you expand a bit on exactly what happened to you?
MOLLY: Even the demons know who he is and tremble at his name.
ANS: What I don't understand is how there can possibly be demons because this implies that there was a "fall" and that a supernatural devil was kicked out of Heaven and he and his followers were permitted to wreak havoc on humanity, and then humanity gets punished for falling victim to them! How can there be a fall when this Lucifer is a Latin word that is foreign to the Jews? How can the story of a fallen Babylonian king suddenly become a supernatural devil? If there is no devil then how can there be any such thing as a demon (followers of the devil)?
About judgment, NDEs, and the Bible...as I understand it nowhere in the Bible does it say "you shall judge yourself" yet this is exactly what appears to be happening in NDEs...how could that correspond to the Bible? And, in NDEs it seems that NO ONE is deemed to be "lost" forever...in fact, those who find themselves in darkness, etc. often are transported OUT of that darkness simply by DESIRING to be! I don't see how this corresponds with the Bible either.
If one uses the Bible as the sole guideline for NDEs then it would appear that all the Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, etc. are being tricked by a "devil"...yet in Hebrew, it seems that this devil does not exist.
I'm also starting to wonder if the only "hell" that exists (temporary or otherwise), only exists in the minds of people who believe it does in one way or another...or who have been exposed to the teaching of some kind of "hell" at some point in their life...this is why I have been referring to the Tibetan Book Of The Dead...and talking about "projections"...in other words that "hell" manifests itself to them in the afterlife.
Indeed the vast majority of NDEs, perhaps even all, seem to carry a message of the importance of "love"....kindness, loving actions, loving words, etc. I haven't seen any that imply the necessity of a particular belief...nor have I seen any that imply that God demands or REQUIRES the worshipping of Jesus Christ...I'm also not sure I understand why a God or Jesus Christ would feel it so necessary to be worshipped...although I can certainly understand that PEOPLE would see that as necessary, for various reasons.
As far as the comments on UFOs, and the comment of them being from the kingdom of darkness, I quote from Howard Storms NDE:
"When the review was finished they asked, "Do you want to ask any questions?" and I had a million questions."
"Asking them if there was life on other planets, their surprising answer was that the universe was full of life." The angels' responses were both visual and linguistic. In addition to their telepathic and extraordinarily clear communication, "the universe is FULL of LIFE!", they initiate a holographic tableau, a procession of intelligent life forms beginning with those that resemble the human form; then with increasing numbers, the forms are less and less humanoid in appearance, as the angels apparently impress their original point: the Universe is full of sentient life."
"Howard gets the point, so his next query becomes, "If there is all this life in the Universe, then why aren't we aware of it here on our own planet?" They told him that the Universe is teaming with life- not only in the physical world but even in other dimensions. The angels told of countless worlds they 'shepherded'."
"When asked about the lack of 'evidence' in our world of life from other worlds, he was told that we are visited, and by a number of different groups of beings, but that they must be very careful in their contact with us, because of our immaturity, naughtiness and to put it bluntly, sinfulness. Later in conversation Howard made reference to seeing images of worlds where beings lived in perfect harmony with one another and the creation, having 'grown up' and matured spiritually to the place where innate spiritual gifts could be unfolded."
"I asked them, which was the best religion. I was looking for an answer which was like, "Presbyterians." I figured these guys were all Christians. The answer I got was, "The best religion is the religion that brings you closest to God."
"They gradually educate us as spirit beings, and bring us into heaven. We grow and increase, and grow and increase, and shed the concerns, desires, and base animal stuff that we have been fighting much of our life. Earthly appetites melt away. It is no longer a struggle to fight them. We become who we truly are, which is part of the divine."
AS TO THE COMMENT ABOUT WHY NDEs CONTAIN DIFFERENT "CONCEPTS":
"I asked about death – what happens when we die? They said that when a loving person dies, angels come down to meet him, and they take him – gradually, at first, because it would be unbearable for that person to be instantly exposed to God. Knowing what's inside of every person, the angels don't have to prove anything by showing off. They know what each of us needs, so they provide that. In some cases it may be a heavenly meadow, and in another, something else. If a person needs to see a relative, the angels will bring that relative. If the person really likes jewels, they will show the person jewels. We see what is necessary for our introduction into the spirit world, and those things are real, in the heavenly, the divine sense."
"We could do much damage to the planet. And by the planet, they meant all of God's creation. Not just the people, but the animals, the trees, the birds, the insects, everything."
"They explained to me that I was very under-developed and that it would be of great benefit to return to my physical existence to learn. In my human life I would have an opportunity to grow so that the next time I was with them I would be more compatible. I would need to develop important characteristics to become like them and to be involved with the work that they do."
"They never gave me a direct mission or purpose. Could I build a shrine or cathedral for God? They said those monuments were for humanity. They wanted me to live my life to love people not things."
...that the world is flat was at one time a popular belief or false concept.
peacemaker
Quote from: annuit coeptis on February 22, 2010, 02:05:45 AM
Thank You WW for the cut paste high light lesson... A
At your service :thumbsup:
QuoteI am usually indifferent to UFOs but I do not think that everyone who claims to have seen one is simply mistaken, or making it up.
Just to be clear, I also believe that UFO's exist and believe those who have seen them, especially my friend whom I trust. UFO simply means it cannot be identified by the person who saw it. She described it as saucer shaped with lights, hovering soundlessly very low in the sky, and then suddenly shooting off at a high rate of speed, again without sound. Now this person is as practical and down to earth as it gets, and would never make such a thing up. And this was 40 years ago that she saw it. I've also watched many testimonies of the disclosure project, which can be seen online. What I was saying was--I think these are our own technology, our own military, not aliens from other planets. This puts a very advanced technology into the hands of a very few people, with the rest of us left to dance around our campfires--isn't that the way human history has always happened? The occult is only hidden knowledge. But, if you go back over a hundred years ago, when scientists were still allowed to talk about what they were doing, and not required to lie, you can readily see how they might have gotten from there to here by expanding on the principles they were discovering then.
Quote from: Bobson on February 21, 2010, 02:26:15 PM
It was somewhat confusing at first because when it happened I was an atheist...maybe an agnostic, at best. I was very puzzled as to how it could be possible that I had a vantage point from up above myself and able to look around because this was supposed to be impossible! What happened after that continued to be puzzling because I still could not see how any of it was possible...yet it was exhilarating and fascinating at the same time...it was a very logical and orderly sequence of events. In order to write this off as a hallucination of some kind I would have to write off the rest of my entire life as a hallucination.
Heaven and hell NDEs not, so they can be real or just a dream.
Medical NDEs are proven. But what exactly do they prove? Christianity? Reincarnation? I trick everyone can do after another 10000 years of evolution?
QuoteI suppose one of the things that I'm asking is, how do people here, who subscribe to UR view these experiences from the point of view that many if not most, do not include the presence of Jesus Christ?
Maybe because for more hell and heaven are more important than Jesus?
QuoteAlthough I'm willing to say that some of these experiences may not be "true" and some people may even concoct them for the sake of fame...however, the other reason I'm bringing this up is because the Tibetan Book of The Dead seems to give a description of what one encounters after dying, that is really quite similar to what is happening in NDEs..and to summarize, it sepaks of "white light", etc. and that your mind is somewhat in control from the point of view that there are "projections" of reality.
"White light" is something often heard. Mind being in control sounds like a dream. It would also hint towards that people can control if they get heaven or hell visions. If we are judged for what we are we maybe also experience what we believe?
QuoteHow do we separate the fact from fiction, in your opinion? I know most Christians will say it has to have Jesus in it or be absolutely consistent with the Bible or it is not valid. I must admit that this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The Bible is rather vague about hell. Yet teh generally accepted NDE's in ET circles are very detailed.
QuoteI also am very interested to know people's knowledge as to how the Jews ended up with a "hinderer" who is doing God's bidding...and the rest of Christendom ended up with a tormenting "devil"...this is a total mystery to me
Because pagan Constantine may Catholicsism the state dictrine. He brought in certain pagan believes. Hell is not Christianity. Hell is the result of mixing Christianity with many pagan views.
QuoteWhy would God punish people for falling victim to a tormenting devil that he has permitted to exist?
Maybe not just permitted. (read Job)
Another thing is that satan is the big winner. He steals 95% of humanity out of the hands of Jesus. And as a reward he may have eternal fun torturing them.
QuoteHow can there be a fall when this Lucifer is a Latin word that is foreign to the Jews? How can the story of a fallen Babylonian king suddenly become a supernatural devil? If there is no devil then how can there be any such thing as a demon (followers of the devil)?
I pretty much agree with Heiser's interpretation of this, but not everybody here would.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made."serpent"H5175
נחשׁ
nâchâsh"The Hebrew root--n-ch-sh--which functions as a noun, verb, and adjective in the Hebrew Bible [used here to describe a divine being] .
If you take it in its normal noun meaning, the word here would mean 'serpent.'
If you take it in its normal verb meaning, the word here would mean 'deceiver' or 'diviner.'
If you take it in its normal adjective meaning, the word here would mean 'shining one.'
Most likely a triple entendre--they are all true. The nachash is a shining, serpentine being--not an animal/snake."
--Michael Heiser
Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 06:04:18 AMHow can there be a fall when this Lucifer is a Latin word that is foreign to the Jews?
The fact that Lucifer is a Latin word doesn't prove he doesn't exist.
Everything but Hebrew is foreign to the Jews. That said; there is weak proof of a fallen devil at best.
Quote from: sheila on February 22, 2010, 12:23:44 AM
Yep! thats right....the vessels of the Lord that hold water,oil
bread etc. Golden or clay....holy because of what was inside it
the word of God or the breath of the Almighty.
Quote from: MollyWhat a lovely thought! God pours out his love into the golden bowl of our hearts, minds, and souls. His love is the water of life everlasting.
Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
What about Revelation's bowls?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2010, 08:36:00 AM
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 06:04:18 AMHow can there be a fall when this Lucifer is a Latin word that is foreign to the Jews?
The fact that Lucifer is a Latin word doesn't prove he doesn't exist.
Everything but Hebrew is foreign to the Jews. That said; there is weak proof of a fallen devil at best.
Rev 12:9 seems pretty solid to me. Scroll up, I added it to my post.
I know, he didn't fall, he was pushed. :laughing7:
We've got Aramaic for the Jews, also. What about Greek?
QuoteWhat about Revelation's bowls?
I know. I was thinking about that. Those bowls are filled with the wrath of God. :mshock:
Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.
Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."
Quote from: Molly on February 22, 2010, 08:48:34 AMWe've got Aramaic for the Jews, also. What about Greek?
My point is/was not what languages the Jews know/knew. A translation doesn't make something more or less true.
If the devil has fallen that's a fact no matter how it's translated.
Just like hell isn't any more true when many preach about it.
BTW for those who are interested: Click here for "The Tibetian book of the dead" and
many other (not religious) books (http://www.truly-free.org/)
Hello Molly, we'll have to perhaps leave UFOs for another discussion :)
WHITEWINGS: But what exactly do they prove? Christianity? Reincarnation? I trick everyone can do after another 10000 years of evolution?
ANS: I'm glad you brought that up because that is part of what I am wondering myself...I don't see how NDEs prove Christianity or anything else for that matter. Although I also think that to the experiencer it does "prove" something...unfortunately because they have seen "concepts" that are familiar to them they conclude that is "proof" of something...the problem is that the people who have these experiences don't do any research for themselves after it has happened...if they did, they would notice that people usually do see "concepts" that are familiar to them regardless of what religion they are. Because of this, some people dismiss these experiences as hallucinations...I do not agree with that...there is an abundance of information available that states that upon dying people will "see" concepts that are familiar to them to help ease confusion...NDEs contain common elements, among different "scenes" or "concepts"...and each "concept" will be appropriate for the individual...even if the "concept" is "hell". This is not to say that hell exists...it does not...and all they will have to do to escape from this "hell" is simply call out for help, or desire to escape from it...when they do one of these two things, they will find that their "hell" has vanished.
Another thing that can be commonly seen if one examines closely, is that "hellish" or negative NDEs teach the experiencer a lesson in the end...such as the Nigerian pastor who claims he was shown "hell"...and was told that this would be his abode if he were to stay. He was flabbergasted and insisted that he was a preacher! A man of God! He was saved! He learned a lesson the hard way that simply believing something isn't of much value...that love and forgiveness were the important values...more important than what he believed. In other words, he learned his lesson, in a way that he could understand it...if it had been any other way he probably would have rejected it and insisted it was the devil.
As far as what happened to me in that NDE experience...there is no doubt as to the reality of it...there is no way to view yourself from above the body, think and rationalize, turn side to side and be fully aware in the same manner as being in the body. There was no "hell" nor "heaven" when this experience happened. After realizing what was happening and trying to "think" my way out of it, I was drawn into darkness, then there was a light...and the rest of the story is much longer and detailed.
WhiteWings, I think you are misunderstanding something...people "get" what they are familiar with regardless of what religion they are...how could it be any other way? The "heaven" and "hell" NDEs are simply people getting what's familiar to them...they have to or they would be so confused they wouldn't know what to do...and most Christians would think the devil was tricking them if they didn't see what they expected to see...did you read what Howard Storm said he was told by those angels of light?
This: "They (the angels of light) know what each of us needs, so they provide that. In some cases it may be a heavenly meadow, and in another, something else. If a person needs to see a relative, the angels will bring that relative. If the person really likes jewels, they will show the person jewels. We see what is necessary for our introduction into the spirit world, and those things are real, in the heavenly, the divine sense."
Also, I would like to rephrase one of my questions...do the people here who ascribe to UR, accept that NDEs that do not have Jesus in them, are NOT deceptions?
Molly...yes I know what Revelation states...however, Revelation was written after the old testament/tanakh...so the concept of a "devil" would have already been present in the minds of some people. What I am asking is, according to the Jews, "the satan" is an emissary of God who is doing God's bidding for him..."the satan" has no power in and of himself...but then how did this "the satan" suddenly become a devil who had great power on his own? It sounds to me like this "devil" is a man made myth...and I'm wondering what other people here might say about all of this to help clarify it.
Revelation is not "solid proof" to me of a devil...because first, it's a dream...second, it was written AFTER the old testament/tanakh..so the idea of a "devil" was most likely present in the mind of the writer of Revelation already...plus this "devil" is totally absent in the old testament/tanakh...even to this day. How did a "devil" suddenly appear on the scene? It seems to me that there is virtually no Biblical or Hebrew evidence for the existence of this "devil", yet Christians seem to be completely unaware of this. "Hell" is not part of the old testament/tanakh, we know that....neither is a "devil"...yet this devil is part of Christianity...how?
Hello WhiteWings...You wrote: "My point is/was not what languages the Jews know/knew. A translation doesn't make something more or less true. If the devil has fallen that's a fact no matter how it's translated."
But in this case, it seems that the translation DOES make a difference in it's validity...you know that "hell" is just a word for sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus..in translation. Neither hell nor the concept of eternal punishment is valid.
Here is some information I received from a person, in my pursuit of these questions...you will see how "Lucifer" is Latin, and how even that Latin "Lucifer" never implied any kind of a "devil"...plus, in Job, God and this rebellious and banished "devil" seem to be pretty "buddy-buddy" for two entities who, according to Christndom, are at "war". The problem seems to be that "Lucifer" is a Latin name that somehow made it's way into a Hebrew manuscript before there was a Roman language. How could this possibly be? Here's the information:
The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains:
"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of some supposed hell?
The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."
Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").
The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.
So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."
Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues) went on to say, "this passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 10:18 by Jesus, that was not its first meaning. It's primary meaning is given in Isaiah 14:4 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...
How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.
How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."
Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".
So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning"). Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.
The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.
David Grinspoon comments on the historical aspects of the word as follows: "The origin of the Judeo-Christian Devil as an angel fallen from heaven into the depths of hell is mirrored in the descent of Venus from shining morning star to the darkness below. This underworld demon, still feared today by people in many parts of the world, is also called Lucifer, which was originally a Latin name for Venus as a morning star." (Venus Revealed p. 17) Actually, Grinspoon should just refer to the "Christian Devil" since the Jews never believed in such a creature and still don't to this day.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 09:53:35 AMthere is an abundance of information available that states that upon dying people will "see" concepts that are familiar to them to help ease confusion...
You mean people that shortly afterwards really died? No real NDE? If we assume that experience comes from God then that 'proves' UR. Why would God make the dying people feel at ease moments before dead and then 10 minutes dump them in a eternal lava pit?
QuoteNDEs contain common elements, among different "scenes" or "concepts"...and each "concept" will be appropriate for the individual...even if the "concept" is "hell".
That contradicts the word "ease" you used above. I can in no way imagine how views of hell easy someone...
QuoteThis is not to say that hell exists...it does not...and all they will have to do to escape from this "hell" is simply call out for help, or desire to escape from it...when they do one of these two things, they will find that their "hell" has vanished.
Then it means that all hell NDE are imaginations. God isn't a master of confusion/lies. So would He show a none existing torture pit
QuoteAnother thing that can be commonly seen if one examines closely, is that "hellish" or negative NDEs teach the experiencer a lesson in the end
That's not true for the one
I have read. They all 'prove' eternal damnation.
Quote...such as the Nigerian pastor who claims he was shown "hell"...and was told that this would be his abode if he were to stay. He was flabbergasted and insisted that he was a preacher! A man of God! He was saved! He learned a lesson the hard way that simply believing something isn't of much value...that love and forgiveness were the important values...more important than what he believed. In other words, he learned his lesson, in a way that he could understand it...if it had been any other way he probably would have rejected it and insisted it was the devil.
And what about those who do not learn their lesson?
QuoteWhiteWings, I think you are misunderstanding something
If it only was something :laughing7:
Quote...people "get" what they are familiar with regardless of what religion they are...how could it be any other way?
I see that differently. If all have to learn about Father, Son and HS; why use a NDE with fake gods?
QuoteThe "heaven" and "hell" NDEs are simply people getting what's familiar to them...they have to or they would be so confused they wouldn't know what to do...and most Christians would think the devil was tricking them if they didn't see what they expected to see...did you read what Howard Storm said he was told by those angels of light?
This: "They (the angels of light) know what each of us needs, so they provide that. In some cases it may be a heavenly meadow, and in another, something else. If a person needs to see a relative, the angels will bring that relative. If the person really likes jewels, they will show the person jewels. We see what is necessary for our introduction into the spirit world, and those things are real, in the heavenly, the divine sense."
That still makes no sense to be for the hell visions. I can accept many truely believe in hell. But those "need" heaven why do the angels of light provide hell instead of heaven?
QuoteAlso, I would like to rephrase one of my questions...do the people here who ascribe to UR, accept that NDEs that do not have Jesus in them, are NOT deceptions?
We don't really know how Jesus looks like so a NDE could also have a fake Jesus. Plus a NDE is a small fragment of 'revelation'. A fragment doen't prove there is nothing beyond that fragment.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 10:07:16 AM
Hello WhiteWings...You wrote: "My point is/was not what languages the Jews know/knew. A translation doesn't make something more or less true. If the devil has fallen that's a fact no matter how it's translated."
But in this case, it seems that the translation DOES make a difference in it's validity...you know that "hell" is just a word for sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus..in translation. Neither hell nor the concept of eternal punishment is valid.
Agreed. And I agree with the rest of your message. Lucifer has been discussed several times on this forum.
And somewhere on these pages... http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html & http://www.tentmaker.org/
A BIT MORE ON THE SUBJECT OF EVIL AND THE DEVIL:
THIS WAS WRITTEN TO ME BY A RABBI:
Judaism rejects the concept of a "Devil", an 'fallen' angel with free will who is in 'rebellion' against G-d and is ruler of Hell. The term "Lucifer' is a corrupt and purposely misleading translation from the Book of Isaiah in theTanach. The original and correct Hebrew term means 'Morning Star" and is the title of the King of Babylon, not some super natural demon. Judaism rejects the concept of "Original Sin" that requires a hell to punish people in and Judaism rejects the idea that the "Devil" rules in "Hell".
We do have S'tan, an angel with NO free will and who is totally obedience to G-d, like all other angels. S'tan's job is to act as the DA>Fred Thompson< on 'Law & Order', bringing charges, accusations against the bad acts of people. But all the mythology that has evolved in Christianity about the "Devil" is completely absent in Judaism. In effect, Christianity has created a 4th god. Judaism forbids the worship of any god but G-d.
As one sees in Job, Satan actually comes to the very kingdom he is supposed to be cast out from.
In the Bible there is also verses which show that it is God, the Creator and Ruler of the whole universe, who is responsible for both the Good and the Bad, and not a devil or god of the underworld:
I am the Eternal, and there is none else, there is no god beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Eternal, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Eternal do all these things. [Isaiah 45:5-7]
Whitewings:"If we assume that experience comes from God then that 'proves' UR."
ANS: Yes, it does...that's the point.
Whitewings:That contradicts the word "ease" you used above. I can in no way imagine how views of hell easy someone...
ANS: It's not easy...but their mind is manifesting it for them...I have heard countless times that in the afterlife "thoughts are things"...in other words if you "think" it, it will manifest itself...transportation is by thought...it is a world of "thought"... a world of "consciousness"...you "think" your way around.
I realize this is probably going to sound kind of strange here...but then I admit I have searched various information...not only from Christian sources. It is my opinion that the afterlife is a world of "thought" and not a physical world in the way that is not like the world that we live in at all. Thoughts become real things, and those who think alike (including "hell") are joined together by their thoughts...it is their negative thought patterns and fears that create their "hell" for them...so, in essence they are getting what they expect or want. I think one of the worst things that anyone could do is to leave this earth world in fear of hell and devils...they just might find themselves in an existence very similar to what they have feared or expected...and will not be imposed on them by a God, they will have created it for themselves.
It does not mean that NDEs are imaginations...respectfully, I would say that you may want to explore sources of information different from just the Bible in order to research what I am trying to say here, and decide for yourself if it makes sense to you...from all that I have seen, the "world of thought" does make sense to me, although it didn't at first.
Whitewings: That's not true for the one I have read. They all 'prove' eternal damnation.
ANS: OK. I haven't seen NDEs that "prove" eternal damnation...what I have seen, though, is a lot of preaching by people who try to CLAIM that their NDE "proves" eternal damnation...yet in the NDE itself there is usually nothing that corresponds with what they are preaching and nothing was communicated to them indicating that either...these people seem to come to their own conclusions. I'm not sure which NDEs you're referring to or that you have been reading. Perhaps some of these people also might have an agenda and are not being entirely truthful in some casees? People defend their religion fiercely.
Whitewings: And what about those who do not learn their lesson?
ANS: I can't comment because I have never seen an NDE that didn't proclaim the importance of love and forgiveness...even from fundamentalists...it seems almost universal. If someone claimed to have a NDE and DIDN'T come back stressing the importance of this, then I might have to wonder if they are lying about the experience...the "lesson" about love and forgiveness is so common it could be said that it is universal...and if someone came back stating things otherwise, I would be doubtful about their reliability.
Whitewings: I see that differently. If all have to learn about Father, Son and HS.
ANS: Well, this is something that I suppose I'll have to admit I don't understand or necessarily agree with. I don't think that all HAVE to learn about Father, Son and Holy Spirit...I find it difficult to imagine why it would be so important to God or to Jesus Christ that everyone MUST learn about Him and bend their knee to him...because he saved the world? I suppose we would think that was a very good reason to have to learn about him, the question is, would a GOD think it was absolutely necessary? If so, why? Because he saved the world? To us that's a good reason, I'm just not so sure that Jesus Christ thinks it's a tremendously important reason...I'm not convinced Jesus is looking for a pat on the back or looking for congratulations...I think perhaps some people are more willing themselves to give him that 'pat on the back' and bend their knee toward him, but I'm not that sure that this is something that is important to him...if he is a God then I feel that he would have outgrown the need for adulation and acknowledgement from humans...that sounds like a human concept to me.
To me that would sort of sound a bit like He is looking for a reward, which is a very human concept that I find difficult to label a God with. I'm not sure that I can equate God or Jesus Christ with someone who needs and wants to be acknowledged for something good that they have done...it sounds like they would be seeking some kind of congratulations, or a pat on the back...when in essence, I don't really see why such a thing would be important to a God...even if he really was the saviour of the world.
Humans think in terms of a reward for something or a punishment for something...they look for "acknowledgment" of something they have done that was good, and they expect "punishment" for someone they believe did something bad...I'm not sure I'm convinced that God sees things this same way, regardless of what is in the Bible.
To tell you the truth...I seriously doubt that there is any kind of "punishment" at all, beyond what someone might inflict on themselves...I find it very hard to believe a God will inflict punishment...what will he do? Tell them to stand in the corner? Burn them in fire for a few years to 'purify' them? Punishment for the sake of punishment accomplishes nothing, in my opinion. We do this here on earth and many of the people who are punished in prison seem to come out and continue to break the law again...so what has been accomplished? It also seems possible that, for those who come out and don't break the law anymore, they only refrain from it out of fear of more punishment.
To me, this seems to be the purpose of the 'life review'...surely anyone would understand what they have done once they "become" the other people they interacted with? In other words, they'll have learned a great deal about themselves through this (without any punishment), they'll have learned a great deal about others, and they'll have learned a great deal about the true definition of love and forgiveness when they realize they have been forgiven of everything...and that because of this they should forgive everyone else as well...and they can forgive themselves...this is "learning" without brutality, and with punishment for the sake of punishment.
Whitewings: why use a NDE with fake gods?
ANS: What would an old Hindu lady think if she saw Jesus Christ? Would she know who he was? Would she know what to do about it? Would she run away? Wouldn't she be confused and ask 'where are the yamatoots I believed in all my life?' What would a Buddhist say if he saw Jesus Christ? Would he know what to think about what he was seeing? Wouldn't he think he was going crazy? What would a Jewish person think if he saw Jesus Christ instead of Jewish concepts? As another NDE person put it: "I WAS SHOWN THAT EVERYONE GETS A FEEDBACK LOOP OF THEIR OWN STUFF."
Whitewings: I can accept many truely believe in hell. But those "need" heaven why do the angels of light provide hell instead of heaven?
ANS: As I have said, I have seen countless statements alluding to "thoughts are things", "thoughts become things", "its a world of thought". This is also my understanding of the nature of "reality" since that experience happened to me...I do think that the afterlife is a world of "thought"...a world of "consciousness"...where almost anything is possible. Also, I'm not entirely sure that those who see traditional fundamentalist "hell" really "need" Heaven...I know a few people who are so obsessed with hell and so afraid of God that they actually seem to think that they are going to get "hell"...and it seems that often they do get just that...until they realize it's a fantasy to be abandoned and desire something better.
Whitewings: A fragment doen't prove there is nothing beyond that fragment.
ANS:I suppose I could agree with that...and that's why I also think that NDEs can offer a glimpse of the beyond...but only a glimpse...they are a fragment and not the whole.
Thanks for your comments, my friend.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 10:49:55 AMJudaism rejects the concept of "Original Sin" that requires a hell to punish people in and Judaism rejects the idea that the "Devil" rules in "Hell".
If hell exists then it should be possible to prove it with the OT only.
I'm not sure that I understand your last post Whitewings...what I posted about what Rabbis told me is not saying hell exists at all...the rabbis I spoke with ALL insisted that hell does not exist and never has...they also clearly stated that eternal punishment does not exist either. They're certainly not saying anything other than that. The Jews reject hell and eternal punishment because they say it is not in their writings at all..anywhere.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 11:59:10 AMI realize this is probably going to sound kind of strange here...
Your talking to a stranger so that's :thumbsup:
Quotebut then I admit I have searched various information...not only from Christian sources. It
If religions are compared there is a lot of overlap. Why? Even a 100% true and correctly translated Bible doesn't contain all knowledge of God and the afterlife. I see it as a good possibilty extra Biblical sources have truth in them too. Maybe even revelations by God that didn't make it into the Bible. Example it's said Zoroaster was a student of Daniel. Did Daniel just reread 'his book' a thousand of times? Or did Daniel also have knowledge that didn't get into the "Daniel" book but perhaps in the teachings of Zoroaster??????
QuoteIt does not mean that NDEs are imaginations...respectfully, I would say that you may want to explore sources of information different from just the Bible in order to research what I am trying to say here, and decide for yourself if it makes sense to you...from all that I have seen, the "world of thought" does make sense to me, although it didn't at first.
Agreed. The problem, and danger, is if you read a book with 10% facts and 90% lies it's easy to confuse a lie for a fact...
QuoteWhitewings: That's not true for the ones I have read. They all 'prove' eternal damnation.
ANS: OK. I haven't seen NDEs that "prove" eternal damnation...
Someone having a demon as a guide in hell. That person can hear the thoughs of the damned. They all think they are there forever.
QuoteWhitewings: And what about those who do not learn their lesson?
ANS: I can't comment because I have never seen an NDE that didn't proclaim the importance of love and forgiveness...even from fundamentalists...it seems almost universal.
I'm talking about the people who had the NDE that scared them unto the narrow road. But those that stayed on the wide road until death.
QuoteWhitewings: I see that differently. If all have to learn about Father, Son and HS.
ANS: Well, this is something that I suppose I'll have to admit I don't understand or necessarily agree with. I don't think that all HAVE to learn about Father, Son and Holy Spirit...I find it difficult to imagine why it would be so important to God or to Jesus Christ that everyone MUST learn about Him and bend their knee to him...because he saved the world?
The Bible states it's teh way things are/gonna be. So I assume that fact still stands after death.
QuoteTo tell you the truth...I seriously doubt that there is any kind of "punishment" at all,
On this forum we usually call it correction. Some believe it takes place now. Some believe it takes place in the afterlife. And likely some believe it takes place both in the current and afterlife. Personally I think the is "correction" but I'm not sure when. I edge to the after life.
QuoteTo me, this seems to be the purpose of the 'life review'...surely anyone would understand what they have done once they "become" the other people they interacted with?
That sounds like a "correction"
It also reminds me of cartoon drawings with angels that film every action of your life and present it at judgement.
QuoteWhitewings: why use a NDE with fake gods?
ANS: What would an old Hindu lady think if she saw Jesus Christ? Would she know who he was?
Likely not. But Jesus has eternity to explain... And being devine I think Jesus can be very convincing.
QuoteWould she know what to do about it? Would she run away?
If Jesus looks like a demon yes. But Jesus looks gentle/comforting/etc. So that's a good start for a conversation. Perhaps the lady thinks it's just another dead person.
QuoteAs another NDE person put it: "I WAS SHOWN THAT EVERYONE GETS A FEEDBACK LOOP OF THEIR OWN STUFF."
The ultimate be judged as you judge.
QuoteThanks for your comments, my friend.
And thank you for this topic :thumbsup:
I question everything. It's my way of learning. Nothing personal Bobson.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 12:29:10 PM
I'm not sure that I understand your last post Whitewings...what I posted about what Rabbis told me is not saying hell exists at all...the rabbis I spoke with ALL insisted that hell does not exist and never has...they also clearly stated that eternal punishment does not exist either. They're certainly not saying anything other than that. The Jews reject hell and eternal punishment because they say it is not in their writings at all..anywhere.
Another try :winkgrin:
IMO hell not in OT. And hell is not in NT.
People that believe in hell usually use NT to prove it. Revelation is their fav book for that.
My point is/was IF the NT really teaches about hell the OT also should teach about hell. So hell should be proven with OT verses alone.
If hell is not in OT:
Did God forget to mention hell for millenia?
Did Moses forgot to mention it in his 600+ laws?
Do the Jews miss one of the most important points in their "own" books?
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 12:29:10 PM
they also clearly stated that eternal punishment does not exist either.
Did they say how long the punishment lasts?
Their believe is somewhere between 0-12 months. Right?
Personally I think it aligns somehow with the harvesting seasons.
WHITEWINGS:I see it as a good possibility extra Biblical sources have truth in them too. Maybe even revelations by God that didn't make it into the Bible. Example it's said Zoroaster was a student of Daniel. Did Daniel just reread 'his book' a thousand of times? Or did Daniel also have knowledge that didn't get into the "Daniel" book but perhaps in the teachings of Zoroaster??????
ANS: I think much the same way that you about this Whitewings...thank you for mentioning this. I'm not very familiar with Zoroaster...only a little bit.
WHITEWINGS: Agreed. The problem, and danger, is if you read a book with 10% facts and 90% lies it's easy to confuse a lie for a fact...
ANS: Yes, and I struggle with that myself as well. Basically, I try to keep in mind that anything that speaks opposite of love, forgiveness, kindness and selflessness...is false. This is part of why I'm here at this website...I'm learning myself.
WHITEWINGS:Someone having a demon as a guide in hell. That person can hear the thoughts of the damned. They all think they are there forever.
ANS:Well, even if they "think" that it doesn't mean it's true...it only means they are confused. And I'm also very skeptical of any NDE (as well as any other experience) containing traditional demons, etc. I'm not sure that demons exist...in fact, I kind of doubt it. I do, however, think that there are earthbound spirits who are troublesome and even malicious.
Whitewings: I'm talking about the people who had the NDE that scared them unto the narrow road. But those that stayed on the wide road until death.
ANS:Well, I question anyone who takes the "wide road" after a legitimate NDE...I've seen this talked about by new agers...and I think that those people are confusing "love and forgiveness" with permissiveness. Not everything is loving and kind...and just because you've already been forgiven doesn't mean that you should indulge all your selfish desires...that is a very poor misunderstanding of love...I agree that some seem to think that way...but I do not accept it. I think they have confused things.
Whitewings: The Bible states it's teh way things are/gonna be. So I assume that fact still stands after death.
ANS:I understand. It's not really something that I understand but I'm aware that it is what the Bible states...I just think sometimes that things like this are "filtered" by human minds...not necessarily the mind of a God. I think humans certainly feel the need to exalt and bow down to God...I'm just not convinced that the creator of the universe thinks the same way as humans do about it.
Whitewings: Personally I think the is "correction" but I'm not sure when. I edge to the after life.
ANS:I do as well...and I think the perfect kind of correction takes place when you "become" everyone you have interacted with...there will be no denying things when that happens...and then they will understand true "love" and true "forgiveness"...when they realize they have been forgiven, they will understand WHY it is necessary to forgive all others, including themselves...and when they can do that they will have no desire to live without that kind of unconditional love and forgiveness and they will freely give it to all others, because they will understand how easily it was given to them even if they didn't deserve it.
Yes, I see the life review as "correction" as well...a perfect kind of correction...where the creator isn't even the judge himself...to me, it lends a new meaning to "forgive 70x7 per day" and "judge not lest you be judged".
Whitewings: Likely not. But Jesus has eternity to explain... And being devine I think Jesus can be very convincing.
ANS:I suppose so. I'm not sure that he would be concerned about that, because I'm not sure that a God would be concerned about receiving praise from humans and that sounds like a human concept to me...however, if I'm wrong, I can accept that too.
Whitewings: If Jesus looks like a demon yes. But Jesus looks gentle/comforting/etc. So that's a good start for a conversation. Perhaps the lady thinks it's just another dead person.
ANS:Maybe. I just think that the NDEs where people see "concepts" that are familiar to them is a perfect scenario...let's keep in mind that there are tens of thousands of people that die EVERY HOUR...it would seem to me that there needs to be a little more of an automatic system in place than everyone seeing Jesus...of which most would be so confused they wouldn't know what to do.
Whitewings: And thank you for this topic. I question everything. It's my way of learning. Nothing personal Bobson.
ANS: Oh, you're most welcome...thank you for your comments, I appreciate it. I question almost everything as well...and that's partly why I came here...and why I brought up the "devil" and "demons" stuff...I still would like to hear what people have to say about those things as well.
No, hell is not in the old testament and not in any of the Jews books..neither is the concept of eternal punishment either...why so many people refuse to acknowledge and accept this is beyond me.
Whitewings:Did they say how long the punishment lasts? Their believe is somewhere between 0-12 months. Right?
ANS:Yes, that's right. The rabbis all told me that the longest it is possible to be in "gehinnom", their place of spiritual correction, is 12 months...this is their theology. Personally, I don't believe that anyone is burned for any reason at all...nor are they punished just for the sake of punishment either. Correction, learning and understanding takes place perfectly in the life review...in my opinion.
Let me ask you one thing...from what you feel that you personally know...do you feel that this "devil" exists? Personally, I don't think so...and I think the fact that the Jews reject the existence of a devil and say this devil is not present in their books is a confirmation of that.
*/quote I suppose one of the things that I'm asking is, how do people here, who subscribe to UR view these experiences from the point of view that many if not most, do not include the presence of Jesus Christ? /quote
In my thinking, JC or God can be found in "all things" and not just a bible. people who never spoke English or some tribe on an island in the so. sea could be saved by knowing what is Love. They may call out to a thing out side of "self" for help, and experience Love and this love is God.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 01:17:50 PM
ANS:Maybe. I just think that the NDEs where people see "concepts" that are familiar to them is a perfect scenario...let's keep in mind that there are tens of thousands of people that die EVERY HOUR...it would seem to me that there needs to be a little more of an automatic system in place than everyone seeing Jesus...of which most would be so confused they wouldn't know what to do.
Unless we arrive in a empty place and lateron move to the real stuff. There are so many ways I can think of. But nothing more than speculation
QuoteWhitewings:Did they say how long the punishment lasts? Their believe is somewhere between 0-12 months. Right?
ANS:Yes, that's right. The rabbis all told me that the longest it is possible to be in "gehinnom", their place of spiritual correction, is 12 months...this is their theology. Personally, I don't believe that anyone is burned for any reason at all...nor are they punished just for the sake of punishment either. Correction, learning and understanding takes place perfectly in the life review...in my opinion.
But Jews are not speaking about burning. Right? It was an honor to be buried in the correct way. Criminals and outcasts were burned in Gehenna like garbage. For ETs Gehanna stands for torture and fire. I think for Jews it's stand for deep shame. And the loop back video likely is lots of shame....
QuoteLet me ask you one thing...from what you feel that you personally know...do you feel that this "devil" exists?
Yes. Satan is mentioned many times. Snake and dragon. And more directly in the testing of Job. What I don't believe is that satan is gonna be a the ruler of the lava pit. Or that he looks like half goat. I'm not sure how to picture satan. So spirit being perhaps.
But I'm not the one you should ask because I'm a seeking semi-atheist.
:omg:
About the 12 months. Do you have any info how they reached that conclusion? Based on what verses etc.
By the way Whitewings...I found out that there is a new book coming out this summer. You might like it...it's called "Between Two Worlds" by Raymond Moody MD with Paul Perry. What is it about? It's about SHARED death experiences...in other words people who are with someone who dies actually SEE THE SAME THINGS AS THE PERSON WHO DIED...including seeing their life review and seeing other deceased loved ones coming to meet the person, when a "portal" to another world opens up.
In other words what the person who has died is seeing, is also seen by others who are with them! I guess that should officially eliminate the "hallucination" excuse of skeptics.
I hope it was OK to post the name of that book here...I don't remember if that's allowed or not.
Oh and I forgot to metion Whitewings...the rabbis explained gehinnom (in their belief) as a place one goes only if they are in need of "spiritual correction"...they never said anything about a literal burning. I never thought to ask how they arrived at the "12 month longest" scenario...I'll ask about it. God bless and surround you and those you love, with love.
And just to clarify...I'm not talking about "the satan"...I'm talking about "devil"...they are two completely different things...the Jews say they have "the satan", but they also say that "the satan" is not a "devil"...they say "the satan" is working for God and not fighting against God...they say "devil" does not exist...they also say this:
Each of us every day fights with the Satan. We all have temptations, throughout the day. But we, as the Children of Israel, have the power to overcome even angels, if we work at it. Therefore, the Talmud says that men are greater than angels, for we can fight with an angel (Satan) and win.
Satan is not, as the Christians think, a rebellious angel. How impossible. The angels are spiritual and holy, without any physical or unholy presence, and the presence of holiness permeates them entirely. Angels, unlike humans, are therefore constantly and fully aware of The Eternal's Presence everywhere. Could you stay dry in the ocean? An angel could not stop being holy, and can do no wrong. There is holiness everywhere in Creation, everywhere in the universe, and angels are made of the same thing. An angel could not stop serving G-d even if he tried.
QuoteLet me ask you one thing...from what you feel that you personally know...do you feel that this "devil" exists? Personally, I don't think so...and I think the fact that the Jews reject the existence of a devil and say this devil is not present in their books is a confirmation of that.
I'm not sure I would rely on a Rabbi to explain to me what is in the Old Testament or to elucidate what the Hebrew priests of the Old Testament believed. It's a different religion now. Didn't they miss Jesus as the Messiah? They were already relying on their own traditions rather than God's word when Jesus showed up. Jesus tells them in Mat 23 that their house will be left desolate. I just think you should read the Old Testament yourself for answers.
Why did you ignore what I said about the nachash? Satan shows up in the third chapter of the Book. Revelation confirms that the nachash--the old serpent, the devil, and the great dragon--are all one and the same.
There are people here who see the principal of satan as anyone who is adversarial to God, rather than a separate being. You could search for those old threads if these people don't show up on this one. I think you might find they agree with what you are saying. [I would consider those who are adversarial to God, as the antichrist, myself.]
QuoteLet me ask you one thing...from what you feel that you personally know...do you feel that this "devil" exists?
Yes I do.
QuoteI will start off by saying that an NDE experience happened to me. I had no prior knowledge of NDEs or OBEs, etc. In other words, I saw myself from up near the ceiling looking down, was able to turn side to side, had peripheral vision, ,,
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. --1 Cor 15
Quote..was drawn into a darkness, saw a light, stopped right in front of it, the brilliance of the light within the area of light is hard to explain because I don't have anything to compare it to.
1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
QuoteSatan is not, as the Christians think, a rebellious angel. How impossible. The angels are spiritual and holy, without any physical or unholy presence, and the presence of holiness permeates them entirely.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
--Rev 12
Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 02:03:00 PM
By the way Whitewings...I found out that there is a new book coming out this summer. You might like it...it's called "Between Two Worlds" by Raymond Moody MD with Paul Perry. What is it about? It's about SHARED death experiences...in other words people who are with someone who dies actually SEE THE SAME THINGS AS THE PERSON WHO DIED...including seeing their life review and seeing other deceased loved ones coming to meet the person, when a "portal" to another world opens up.
In other words what the person who has died is seeing, is also seen by others who are with them! I guess that should officially eliminate the "hallucination" excuse of skeptics.
I hope it was OK to post the name of that book here...I don't remember if that's allowed or not.
Bobson...This is in no way a 'dig' at you.
But it seems your quite prepared to believe what the Howard Sterns and the Raymond Moodys of the world believe, no matter how 'far' removed they go away from science.
NDES have 'never' been proven. Ever.
We have a few scientists from the past saying they 'proved' it (Crookes etc), but their 'proof' turned out to be images such as this http://www.prairieghosts.com/spr1.jpg which real science has proved were double exposed photos etc.
As for Howard Stern, well fair enough...Anyone can see he was in an accident, but what does that prove? Anyone can say they died and went here and did this and that and make a tonne of money...Take Bill Wiese for example - http://thegreatrealization.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/man-who-claims-he-went-to-hell-scams-christians/
Whom L Ray Smith completely debunked on utube, showing him up for the money greedy fraud he is - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3updz1KalQ
Raymond Moody believes in the manifestation of spirits in his psychomanteum. http://www.psychomanteum.com/
Now if these things are all true, why doesn't the world know about them? Why not 'prove' it to the world?
For years these men, such as Michael Roll have been saying -
"We can prove it! We WILL prove it!" For YEARS!!! They have still YET to 'prove' it.
So what I'm saying is this. How can you believe one person over another? Why pick and choose? Do you know all these people personally? Do you know what 'agenda' they may have had to make something up? You seem quick to judge certain things and super fast to believe in what I would call 'nonsense' with no scientific basis or basis in reality at all.
For example you said:-
in other words people who are with someone who dies actually SEE THE SAME THINGS AS THE PERSON WHO DIED...including seeing their life review and seeing other deceased loved ones coming to meet the person, when a "portal" to another world opens up.
In other words what the person who has died is seeing, is also seen by others who are with them! I guess that should officially eliminate the "hallucination" excuse of skeptics.
Your use of capital letters shows your a true believer in this stuff...That your willing to accept what one man (Moody) says without any evidence and then you say that this should officially eliminate the hallucination excuse of the skeptics.....Eh? How is that possible? Because Dr Moody said it?
Heres an idea...Why doesnt Dr Moody 'prove' it and put his money where his mouth is. He says he has proof...Roll says he has proof, yet they have never produced any whatsoever...All they do is bring out a book every few years telling the world they have proof but never actually proving anything.
MOLLY:I'm not sure I would rely on a Rabbi to explain to me what is in the Old Testament or to elucidate what the Hebrew priests of the Old Testament believed. It's a different religion now. Didn't they miss Jesus as the Messiah?
ANS:Yes, I guess they did. However, I don't see that necessarily being relevant. What the Jews say about Jesus Christ is sort of irrelevant to me. But this part of "devil" is just like "hell" to me which can't be "proven" in the old testament..I don't understand why "devil" shouldn't be able to be proven with old testament as well...and from what I can see there is no proof of the devil's existence in there...the encounter with Job certainly doesn't sound like a rebelling devil to me, it sounds like "the satan" that the Jews are speaking about...how did he get back into the kingdom he was kicked out of? It sounds like a being who is working for God and they don't appear to be arch-enemies. Did you read the other posts as to the explanation of Lucifer and the Babylonian king?
MOLLY: I just think you should read the Old Testament yourself for answers.
ANS:The problem is that the old testament does not seem to line up with it's equivalent, as I understand...the tanakh. This reinforces my suspicions that a "devil" might not exist...and I would really like to get to the bottom of it...I also don't see how a devil could exist without a hell...and I find it hard to reconcile myself to a God who would cast out a supernatural devil with a lot of power thus causing humans to be tormented, and then punish those humans after they have fallen victim to this devil...when God should have known better to begin with. I strongly suspect that this supernatural "devil" who wields all this independant power does not exist...yet I could conceive that "the satan" as the Jews describe it...does exist.
MOLLY: Revelation confirms that the nachash--the old serpent, the devil, and the great dragon--are all one and the same.
ANS:Revelation is a dream...also it was written after the Jewish version of the old testament so it doesn't really prove anything to me other than the writer of Revelation already believed in a "devil" that seems to be foreign to the entire OT/Tanakh.
MOLLY: There are people here who see the principal of satan as anyone who is adversarial to God, rather than a separate being. You could search for those old threads if these people don't show up on this one. I think you might find they agree with what you are saying.
ANS:Thank you Molly...would you be able to point me to one of those threads that are speaking about this and outline their views on this? The way that you have described "satan" here in your last part, seems to be very similar to what they Jews say.
MOLLY: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
ANS:Again, I would have to say, did you read the articles I posted on Lucifer, fall, and the Babylonian king? Revelation just does not mean that much to me Molly because I can't find verification for this "devil" in the old testament which should be the same as the tanach...so I'm unable to just believe Revelation when there is no reference to this being in the OT/Tanach...and the reference to "satan" that is there is a lot different from a "devil" or a "dragon". Plus, as I understand from this website...Revelation is symbolism.
I don't mean to sound blasphemous...it's just that even the new testament to me should be able to hold at least some kind of corroboration with the OT/Tanach...after all, it's the same God. So unless I can find corroboration of a "devil" in the OT/Tanach, I'm not sure I'm able to state that a devil really exists despite all logic to the contrary, just because a "devil" is mentioned in the NT.
FRIENDOFMANKIND:But it seems your quite prepared to believe what the Howard Sterns and the Raymond Moodys of the world believe, no matter how 'far' removed they go away from science.
NDES have 'never' been proven. Ever.
ANS:Would you please offer an alternative and logical explanation to the following:
1-People born blind can see and describe events and objects in NDEs
2-Conversations had by relatives in distant locations from the experiencer are later verified as correct
3-A former atheist scientist and doctor diagnoses a baby with a fractured hip while his body is in the morgue
4-Pam Reynolds has a deep NDE and even describes the instruments they were using on her brain aneurysm while she is monitored and has no heart beat and all of the blood is drained from her head...for all intents and purposes she is dead. Neurologists can only say that it is inconceivable to them as to how this could occur.
5-People who are present with someone who doesn't have a NEAR death experience, but actually DIES for good...and sees the same thing as the person who has died beside them...including the spirit of the one who has just died
6-In death bed visions people see someone who they did not know had died...and it is confirmed by others
Bill Wiese's story is not a death experience. It's a weak argument to try to use Bill Wiese in this. Most likely Bill Wiese's imagination went wild...or else his own obsessive thoughts created an illusion for him...he believes it was real...but it was not.
FRIEND: Raymond Moody believes in the manifestation of spirits in his psychomanteum.
ANS: Please explain how these manifestations would be able to relay information previously unknown to those they manifested to, and later verified as correct, if it is nothing more than a hallucination. Also check the book "induced after death communication" by Dr. Al Botkin and get back to me with complete explanations for each of the accounts that contain verified information contained in it. in fact, one such expereince is captured on video, including the tleephone call to verify the information recieved.
FRIEND: Now if these things are all true, why doesn't the world know about them? Why not 'prove' it to the world?
ANS:I am familiar with all of these things you have brought up. And I also feel that the reality of life after life has been proven so many times already, it's almost comical to hear someone say "prove it". I am seeking answers regarding the Bible and Jesus Christ...and that's why I'm here...I'm also not willing to just blindly believe things in a book that has many authors, filtered through the minds of humans, without some corroboration at least between it's own books. That's the difference...and that's why I'm interested in this subject...it's all supposed to be the same God...I assume when you think of "hell" you do not instantly accept what is written, and in fact, discover that the tanach does not contain hell nor the concept of eternal punishment...shouldn't the "devil" be held to the same scrutiny and standard? I'm not trying to invalidate Jesus Christ, and it does not matter to me what the Jews say about him...but it does matter to me what is in the tanach about a devil...because a powerful devil would be a pretty bad trick on God's part, to reveal the devil's existence thousands of years after the fact...just like hell.
FRIEND: Heres an idea...Why doesnt Dr Moody 'prove' it and put his money where his mouth is. He says he has proof...Roll says he has proof, yet they have never produced any whatsoever...All they do is bring out a book every few years telling the world they have proof but never actually proving anything.
ANS: If you don't think it has already been proven then you haven't done enough homework yet. I don't say this in a challenging way, but I have 100+ gigs of various items that any rational person would have to conclude is enough evidence to constitute proof...perhaps you haven't searched diligently enough...or perhaps you simply CAN'T believe? There is a difference. You forget, that I was once an atheist...and I did not convert easily, I assure you. The problem is not a lack of proof...the problem is utter denial of the proof by pseudo-scientists and atheists who call themselves critical thinkers...but mainly they are only protecting their own beliefs...and atheism is a belief as well.
FRIEND: Your use of capital letters shows your a true believer in this stuff...That your willing to accept what one man (Moody) says without any evidence and then you say that this should officially eliminate the hallucination excuse of the skeptics.....Eh? How is that possible? Because Dr Moody said it?
ANS:Do you accept the existence of a supernatural devil because it's in the NT? Even if it's completely absent prior to that? No. I'm using Molly's Occam's Razor...it's the most logical conclusion to be drawn from the MOUNTAIN of evidence...of which continues to be denied, not by scientists, but pseudo-scientists...who wouldn't know proof if it stared them in the face. Would you consider the shared death experience of someone who dies as LOGICALLY explained as...a hallucination? What is ironic to me, Friend, is that you don't seem to be willing to hold the existence of a "devil" up to the same scrutiny as you do these other people and experiences...I'm trying to sort out Jesus Christ and the Bible...but I can't find a way to blindly believe things that don't make logical sense to me, and I can't find corroboration for in the books of the supposed keepers of the word. Hell wasn't there...and it seems very likely that the devil isn't there either...I was hoping someone could educate me on this...but the education will need to be more than "well it's in the new testament"...if it truly is, then it should be in the old testament as well as the tanach...and it does not seem to be there, from what I can tell. Are you willing to consider proof of a supernatural devil just because it's in the NT? Even the keepers of the word NEVER believed such a thing? Ever.
Sorry if I sounded aggressive, I don't mean to. I'm just typing in a hurry!!
And, Friend, I still have't brought up Prof. Charles Tart, or Prof. Gary Shwartz either...along with 100+ gigs of more VERIFED information. I'm not really someone who is satisfied with stories that don't contain verfication from third persons...that's another reason I'm looking for cross reference to a "devil" in the Tanach and Talmud and Torah...and it's not there..so the fact that it is in the NT doesn't hold much water to me. I already posted some articles explaining these translations and so on, maybe no one has read them...or else they just assume a devil does exist...without holding it to the same standard as they do "hell". I'm not sure why this would be the case. I would very much like hear from UR people here who have also researched this, rather than simply believe in a "devil" because it's in the NT. Don't forget "hell" was in the NT as well as the "Christian" OT at one time too...but it really wasn't...we only believed it was...and for a very long time, I might add.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 04:44:08 PM
MOLLY:I'm not sure I would rely on a Rabbi to explain to me what is in the Old Testament or to elucidate what the Hebrew priests of the Old Testament believed. It's a different religion now. Didn't they miss Jesus as the Messiah?
ANS:Yes, I guess they did. However, I don't see that necessarily being relevant. What the Jews say about Jesus Christ is sort of irrelevant to me. But this part of "devil" is just like "hell" to me which can't be "proven" in the old testament..I don't understand why "devil" shouldn't be able to be proven with old testament as well...and from what I can see there is no proof of the devil's existence in there...the encounter with Job certainly doesn't sound like a rebelling devil to me, it sounds like "the satan" that the Jews are speaking about...how did he get back into the kingdom he was kicked out of? It sounds like a being who is working for God and they don't appear to be arch-enemies. Did you read the other posts as to the explanation of Lucifer and the Babylonian king?
The Jews are not without flaws. But neither are Christians. If I had to choose to listen to the average Rabi or the average Pastor about the OT I would surely choose the Rabbi.
Just the fact that the OT is written in a old version of their own language gives them a great headstart. 'The Hebrew text has so many hidden 'word games' that got lost in translation.
The Jews may have overlooked the "big fact' Jesus but most Christians have overlooked the huge fact Father is not a monster...
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 04:54:26 PM
And, Friend, I still have't brought up Prof. Charles Tart, or Prof. Gary Shwartz either...along with 100+ gigs of more VERIFED information.
100 gigs sounds like movies... Titles? :winkgrin:
Hi Friend...100 gigs of video clips, word documents, etc. All containing independant verification. I have amassed it over 3 years. I'm almost afraid to bring this up here..but, maybe just quickly...including the studies done by Prof. Gary Schwart using mediums.
Whitewings:The Jews are not without flaws. But neither are Christians. If I had to choose to listen to the average Rabi or the average Pastor about the OT I would surely choose the Rabbi. Just the fact that the OT is written in a old version of their own language gives them a great headstart. 'The Hebrew text has so many hidden 'word games' that got lost in translation. The Jews may have overlooked the "big fact' Jesus but most Christians have overlooked the huge fact Father is not a monster...
ANS: Very well said in my opinion, Whitewings...for what it's worth, I agree with you.
Whitewings, that book by Moody...the first chapter of it can be downloaded and read for free of charge, if you were interested in seeing the first chapter. The "Between Two Worlds" book.
QuoteMOLLY: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
ANS:Again, I would have to say, did you read the articles I posted on Lucifer, fall, and the Babylonian king? Revelation just does not mean that much to me Molly because I can't find verification for this "devil" in the old testament which should be the same as the tanach...so I'm unable to just believe Revelation when there is no reference to this being in the OT/Tanach...and the reference to "satan" that is there is a lot different from a "devil" or a "dragon". Plus, as I understand from this website...Revelation is symbolism.
There's a lot going on in the OT that people do not see because they are not reading the Hebrew.
There are all sorts of characters present that people do not even know about--the watchers, nephilim, etc and places, the abyss, the pit, etc. These words all refer to specific beings or places that is lost to our understanding without the Hebrew, and without knowledge of the context.
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. --Job 1
Now we see here that Satan is a member of a group called 'the sons of God.' Who is this group? They are not celestial angels--
Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?This phrase sons of God in the OT is 'bên 'ĕlôhı̂ym.'
In this context, these look to be minor gods, not angels.
There's a lot going on in the OT.
7 Remember the days of old;
consider the years of many generations;
ask your father, and he will show you,
your elders, and they will tell you.
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.9But the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.
--Deut 32 [English standard version]
"heritage"H5159
נחלה
nachălâhnakh-al-aw'
From H5157 (in its usual sense); properly something inherited, that is, (abstractly) occupancy, or (concretely) an heirloom; generally an estate, patrimony or portion: - heritage, to inherit,
inheritance, possession. Compare H5158.
We, the believers, are God's inheritance, his possession.
1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
This below is Jesus speaking--And, he says this as he is sending out his disciples to the nations--
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.To me this means the battlefield has now changed from heaven to earth.
I think you can use the search option to find other threads on the subject of satan.
Hello Molly, yes I see what you wrote. However I don't see this as any proof of the existence of a supernatural tormenting devil. Plus, I'm more interested in the Tanach about this than I am the Christian OT...if you read the posts I made regarding Lucifer, the satan, and translations...you will understand why. I'm not really interested in the Christianized version of OT...because 'hell' ended up there as well...and now it looks like a 'devil' has ended up there as well.
For me, if the Jews say their writings do not contain any devil and they have never believed such a thing...then I wonder where it came from? And the Christian OT does not mean that much to me...hell was in there at one time too...I was hoping to hear from those who had actually done that kind of research and interested in what they discovered...honestly I can't find a way to believe a supernatural demon appeared on the scene out of nowhere and really does exist...I also find it somewhat of a stretch to think that this supernatural devil demon really WAS revealed to the Jews but they just missed it. They certainly didn't miss "the satan" though...how would they miss something as important as a supernatural tormenting devil from the beginning of their revelations from what is supposed to be the same God as the Christians have.
If this supernatural devil demon who is warring with God (how could he be so stupid??) is not present in the Jewish Torah, Talmud or Tanach...then it seems logical to conclude that any reference to this powerful super demon in the NT is either a fabrication of the Church somewhere along the way, maybe because they soaked it up from pagan sources like the Egyptians, or else they had an agenda and wanted a super-devil to support a "fall", "hell" and of course with hell, you need a ruler...maybe that's how the devil was born...or it has been misunderstood and mistranslated...one of the two seems to be the only logical conclusion. But I would really like to hear from others who have researched this thoroughly with Jewish sources, etc. and what their conclusions were. Of course, if there is no devil then that throws a monkey wrench into the entire "demons" thing as well...at least the typical "Christian" demons.
Rember the bottom line is that there is this from the Jews:
As one sees in Job, Satan actually comes to the very kingdom he is supposed to be cast out from.
In the Bible there is also verses which show that it is God, the Creator and Ruler of the whole universe, who is responsible for both the Good and the Bad, and not a devil or god of the underworld:
I am the Eternal, and there is none else, there is no god beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Eternal, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Eternal do all these things. [Isaiah 45:5-7]
For God, the Bible, and for Judaism, to have an entity that competes with God, that has power and authority of his own in opposition to God, is to violate the basic idea of monotheism.
God creates light and darkness...God creates evil...why didn't he tell the Jews that the devil is doing it when he had a perfect opportunity to do so right there?
Hello Molly, I find it difficult to believe that rabbis who spend their whole life in these books of theirs, don't really know what's going on! If they don't know what's going on then who on earth would? The Christians? Why would the Christians have a better idea of what's going on than the thousands of years of rabbis? Including the very recipients of these messges at the beginning? Can they possibly not know what's going on? What happened to Occam's Razor? :happy3:
It will be quite disturbing if one finds out that there is no devil as well as no hell...and if it isn't contained in any Jewish Holy Books then it would seem that Jesus really DID NOT say those words and someone put them in his mouth, after all, didn't they do that with "hell"? Most Christians today still say that "Jesus talked about hell more than he did heaven" but in actuality he never spoke of it once. Plus, how would he speak of a concept (hell/eternal punishment) when he was a Jew himself and it would have been completely foreign to his own people? Did he speak of a supernatural powerful tormenting devil that would also have been completely foreign to his own people? In either case, they wouldn't have had any idea what he was even talking about...or else the church misunderstood what he was saying or mistranslated something, either innocently or purposefully.
Also, the Jews denial of a devil and their description of a 'satan' sounds to me to be very, very suspiciously like what Jesus Christ was talking about when he said to Peter "Get behind me satan"...was he talking to the devil himself? Or was he talking to Peter and insisting that he overcome "the hinderer"..."the satan"...the angel with a dirty job? I don't know, but it sounds quite a bit like he was using 'satan' in the same context as what the Jews are stating...
Quote
ANS:Would you please offer an alternative and logical explanation to the following:
1-People born blind can see and describe events and objects in NDEs
Prove it. If it was proven, everyone would believe it, but it cant be proven...
Quote2-Conversations had by relatives in distant locations from the experiencer are later verified as correct
Lol ah it MUST be true then...People never lie after all...
Quote3-A former atheist scientist and doctor diagnoses a baby with a fractured hip while his body is in the morgue
4-Pam Reynolds has a deep NDE and even describes the instruments they were using on her brain aneurysm while she is monitored and has no heart beat and all of the blood is drained from her head...for all intents and purposes she is dead. Neurologists can only say that it is inconceivable to them as to how this could occur.
5-People who are present with someone who doesn't have a NEAR death experience, but actually DIES for good...and sees the same thing as the person who has died beside them...including the spirit of the one who has just died
6-In death bed visions people see someone who they did not know had died...and it is confirmed by others
Again, no proof...None at all, only a vast lack of it.
Actually the truth is that 90% of people who have died saw NOTHING. They had no NDE, no lights, nowt!
Also, most people who have seen ghosts, orbs, blah blah blah, are normally mentally unstable.
Also most people who have ever come up with a startling ghost photo or spectacular NDE etc, are afterwards proven to be fakes, as is the case of most NDE 'scientists'.
QuoteBill Wiese's story is not a death experience. It's a weak argument to try to use Bill Wiese in this. Most likely Bill Wiese's imagination went wild...or else his own obsessive thoughts created an illusion for him...he believes it was real...but it was not.
So you dont believe Bill, well thats a start!
Quote
ANS: Please explain how these manifestations would be able to relay information previously unknown to those they manifested to, and later verified as correct, if it is nothing more than a hallucination. Also check the book "induced after death communication" by Dr. Al Botkin and get back to me with complete explanations for each of the accounts that contain verified information contained in it. in fact, one such expereince is captured on video, including the tleephone call to verify the information recieved.
Again a huge lack of evidence...All we have is a 'DR's' side of the story, as for the video, it proves nothing, nor the telephone call, it could have been (and no doubt was) set up.
Under any proper scientific study, all of these things have been and would be proven false no doubt.
QuoteANS:I am familiar with all of these things you have brought up. And I also feel that the reality of life after life has been proven so many times already, it's almost comical to hear someone say "prove it". I am seeking answers regarding the Bible and Jesus Christ...and that's why I'm here...I'm also not willing to just blindly believe things in a book that has many authors, filtered through the minds of humans, without some corroboration at least between it's own books. That's the difference...and that's why I'm interested in this subject...it's all supposed to be the same God...I assume when you think of "hell" you do not instantly accept what is written, and in fact, discover that the tanach does not contain hell nor the concept of eternal punishment...shouldn't the "devil" be held to the same scrutiny and standard? I'm not trying to invalidate Jesus Christ, and it does not matter to me what the Jews say about him...but it does matter to me what is in the tanach about a devil...because a powerful devil would be a pretty bad trick on God's part, to reveal the devil's existence thousands of years after the fact...just like hell.
ANS: If you don't think it has already been proven then you haven't done enough homework yet. I don't say this in a challenging way, but I have 100+ gigs of various items that any rational person would have to conclude is enough evidence to constitute proof...perhaps you haven't searched diligently enough...or perhaps you simply CAN'T believe? There is a difference. You forget, that I was once an atheist...and I did not convert easily, I assure you. The problem is not a lack of proof...the problem is utter denial of the proof by pseudo-scientists and atheists who call themselves critical thinkers...but mainly they are only protecting their own beliefs...and atheism is a belief as well.
FRIEND: Your use of capital letters shows your a true believer in this stuff...That your willing to accept what one man (Moody) says without any evidence and then you say that this should officially eliminate the hallucination excuse of the skeptics.....Eh? How is that possible? Because Dr Moody said it?
ANS:Do you accept the existence of a supernatural devil because it's in the NT? Even if it's completely absent prior to that? No. I'm using Molly's Occam's Razor...it's the most logical conclusion to be drawn from the MOUNTAIN of evidence...of which continues to be denied, not by scientists, but pseudo-scientists...who wouldn't know proof if it stared them in the face. Would you consider the shared death experience of someone who dies as LOGICALLY explained as...a hallucination? What is ironic to me, Friend, is that you don't seem to be willing to hold the existence of a "devil" up to the same scrutiny as you do these other people and experiences...I'm trying to sort out Jesus Christ and the Bible...but I can't find a way to blindly believe things that don't make logical sense to me, and I can't find corroboration for in the books of the supposed keepers of the word. Hell wasn't there...and it seems very likely that the devil isn't there either...I was hoping someone could educate me on this...but the education will need to be more than "well it's in the new testament"...if it truly is, then it should be in the old testament as well as the tanach...and it does not seem to be there, from what I can tell. Are you willing to consider proof of a supernatural devil just because it's in the NT? Even the keepers of the word NEVER believed such a thing? Ever.
Sorry if I sounded aggressive, I don't mean to. I'm just typing in a hurry!!
There is no proof for life after death.
Thats the 'fact' here. But your touting it as 'fact'...So there is no debate left!
Believe what you like! I was under the immpression you were after honest answers.
Ill readily admit that there is a large stack of good reasoning towards there being life after death, but there is equally a large stack of good reasoning against there NOT being life after death. (90% of people who have died did not have an NDE for one example)...The remaining 10% are
normaly not everyday sane-minded people (i mean no offence by this, but just listen to some of the callers on radio shows such as coast to coast who speak of their NDE, or listen to some peoples NDES on utube and tell me if they come over as being normal rational people, they normally come across as very loud, brash, mad, or all three), or the 10% end up writing a bestseller about their little trip through fairyland.
Believe it or not, I believe in life after death. But to be honest, the Raymond Moodys and Michael Rolls with their so called 'evidence' actually makes most people question if their is life after death, because they've said theyve had proof for about 20-30 years, and so far they havent proved anything...It just shows them up as liars.
If they have proof...show it. Then noone will laugh at them anymore since they seem to get really upset when people question them....Well, no wonder people question them! 30 year saying they have evidence and not a drop of it has emerged!!
Its like the people I tell i have seen a UFO too. - They go online and look at the fake photos of ufos by all those greedy people out to write books and make money from their forgeries and the people i told come back to me and say "You must be mad to believe in that crap"...Then they dont believe in it because of all the falseness and fakeness attatched to it and the so called people who have 'proof' but never actually show any.
People like Moody etc seem to be ruining it for everyone else, by continuously saying they have proof and never presenting it and any rational mind has to assume that they might well just be out to make money from the gullible.
QuotePlus, I'm more interested in the Tanach about this than I am the Christian OT...if you read the posts I made regarding Lucifer, the satan, and translations...you will understand why. I'm not really interested in the Christianized version of OT...because 'hell' ended up there as well...and now it looks like a 'devil' has ended up there as well.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The English translations may be different but--for the most part--the Hebrew should be the same.
Maybe you mean to say the English translation of certain words leading to a particular general understanding among the Christians. Solution--read it in Hebrew, easy to do these days.
The Talmud is not the word of God--it is the tradition of men. The Torah is the word of God and the same book for Jews and Christians.
"The Torah is a name used in Judaism for the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Masoretic Text or the Miqra."
The tanakh--I'm not sure what that is--Sounds like our entire OT--the same thing as the Torah--Although maybe the Torah just refers to the first five books?
Tanakh--"the Jewish scriptures which consist of three divisions--the Torah and the Prophets and the Writings "
"The Torah ("Teaching", also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nevi'im ("Prophets") and Ketuvim ("Writings")—hence TaNaKh. The name "Miqra" (מקרא) is a Hebrew word for the Tanakh, meaning "that which is read", derived from the word qara "קרא" meaning to read aloud. The elements of the Tanakh are incorporated in various forms in Christian Bibles, in which, with some variations, it is called the "Old Testament". The Old Testament does not use the traditional Hebrew subdivisions, though the distinction "Law and the Prophets" is used several times in the New Testament.[1]"
QuoteFor God, the Bible, and for Judaism, to have an entity that competes with God, that has power and authority of his own in opposition to God, is to violate the basic idea of monotheism
I wouldn't say this is exactly how I would put it. Remember the Jews themselves worshipped other gods often in the OT. An incident with a calf comes to mind. Thus the commandment--
Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.But, some here might say these other 'gods' are the vain imaginations of men. I disagree with that.
QuoteIf this supernatural devil demon who is warring with God (how could he be so stupid??)
Indeed!
Gen 3 says he was cunning. No one ever said he was smart.
But there is a spiritual war going on nonetheless--
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. --Eph 6
FRIENDOFMANKIND: Respectfully, I'm not going to answer your post because I have no interest in turning this into an argument with someone who will never be persuaded no matter what they see or hear. What you believe about this is of no significance to me...you are the one it is significant to. I could show you video after video, document after document and you will only continue to deny so there is no point. So I would ask you to just drop it with me, I don't have the time or the patience.
NDE's are simple to me.
The mountain of data is evidence that something outside of the observable realm we live in exists and the evidence also suggests what exists is a realm of life.
However, where the Bull S*** comes in is when people use this to leverage our emotions to a specific way to believe as if they have seen something that makes their personal doctrine true and others must believe those specifics.
QuoteHello Molly, I find it difficult to believe that rabbis who spend their whole life in these books of theirs, don't really know what's going on! If they don't know what's going on then who on earth would? The Christians? Why would the Christians have a better idea of what's going on than the thousands of years of rabbis? Including the very recipients of these messges at the beginning? Can they possibly not know what's going on? What happened to Occam's Razor?
well, all I can say is, when I first started really studying the OT, I asked myself--How did these people miss Jesus? He is all over the OT. He is the fulfillment of hundreds of predictions in the OT. Believe me, either the NT is all lies or these people are blind as bats. My thinking is most Jews do not read the entire OT. My goodness, David even describes Jesus on the cross in one of his Psalms. How do they explain that?
But God predicted it would happen that way--
Matthew 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Hello Molly,
But there is a spiritual war going on nonetheless--
-Well maybe, but it doesn't look like it's with a devil or his fallen angels to me...again, the NT is sort of irrelevant to me on this subject because I want to cross reference something as important as a powerful "devil" with the Jewish equivalent of the OT...if it does not correspond then it would strongly seem something is wrong.
I also do not understand why when God told his people that HE creates light and darkness, HE creates evil...why he did not reveal this "devil's" role in it very clearly...the Jews would claim that he did...and they would say that is "the satan"...but they also say the satan is certainly not a devil with totally independant power.
It still sounds to me a bit like the church needed a ruler for 'hell'...and it got one...the devil.
Have you read the entire post about the explanation of Lucifer, devil, morning start, etc.? Did you read all of that? What is the logical rebuttal to that article, without using the NT as 'proof' of a devil? A good rebuttal to that article would go a long way for the devil...but it seems like it will have to come from the Jewish equivalent of the OT...I don't trust the Christian OT ever since I found out about the "hell" situation. If the devil existed, he couldn't have just come into existence 2000 years ago...and it doesn't seem that reasonable to me that the jews understood 'the satan' but missed the all powerful tormenting devil...especially when God had a perfect opportunity to explain it when he said that HE is the one who creates evil.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 06:23:31 PM
FRIENDOFMANKIND: Respectfully, I'm not going to answer your post because I have no interest in turning this into an argument with someone who will never be persuaded no matter what they see or hear. What you believe about this is of no significance to me...you are the one it is significant to. I could show you video after video, document after document and you will only continue to deny so there is no point. So I would ask you to just drop it with me, I don't have the time or the patience.
I believe in life after death friend...I just dont believe Dr Moody, or Michael Rolls of the world. They have been saying they have 'proof' for over 30 years, and still havent given any. All your doing by touting their stuff as proof, is the same as what they are doing...Saying there is proof when there actually isnt, and helping them sell books into the bargain.
I believe the small minority of people when they say they have had an NDE, but I also believe the massive bunch of people (90%+) that say that when they died there was nothing.
Respect.
It was never an argument, i dont argue with people...I merely questioned your belief in Ray Moodys 'lack of proof'.
QuoteAlso, the Jews denial of a devil and their description of a 'satan' sounds to me to be very, very suspiciously like what Jesus Christ was talking about when he said to Peter "Get behind me satan"...was he talking to the devil himself? Or was he talking to Peter and insisting that he overcome "the hinderer"..."the satan"...the angel with a dirty job? I don't know, but it sounds quite a bit like he was using 'satan' in the same context as what the Jews are stating...
Yes, there are some here who would agree with you on that, saying it is the adversary in Peter that Jesus is calling 'satan.'
However, I feel that satan as a spirit [of antichrist] can and does enter into men, causing them to do his bidding instead of God's. To my mind, Jesus hands himself over to satan, not Judas--
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.--Luke 22
I'm curious--why does this interest in satan come out of your NDE? I know for myself, the only thing I can conclude from my similar experiences is that we have a spiritual body, connected to our physical body. I saw nothing else.
MOLLY:How do they explain that?
-Well, they just say he didn't fulfill enough prophecy and that's that. But this doesn't matter to me...I don't really care about it. Neither do I see missing Jesus Christ as being relevant to the devil...with Jesus Christ the discussion is about who was he? With the devil the question is "does he exist?" And it smells conspicuously like he doesn't because he is absent from the people who claimed all these revelatons from God...this is why I came to this website...I already knew what the Jews said, I wanted to know what the UR people here said because they had the guts to dig and eliminate the myth of hell and eternal punishment.
Respectfully, though, it kind of sounds a bit like "selective belief" now...in other words "we used the Jews to realize there is no hell and never was right from the beginning...but well, they can't be trusted at all when they say there is no devil because they don't know their own holy books well enough."
I don't know...it doesn't make sense to me...and I don't see the NT as proof of a devil anymore than I see it as proof of 'hell'. The same God should be able to cross reference in at least the simplest ways...and what could be more simple than hell and a devil? And, the cross referencing is not working...but in this case Christians are saying the Jews just didn't get it when it comes to the devil...even though they have a perfectly rational explanation for 'the satan'...in fact, to me, it makes far more sense than the casting out of some kind of a supernatural devil to torment mankind, who is warring with God...one could say that this was not a very nice "gift" from God at all.
But from the Jews point of view, where the satan is a hinderer, commissioned by God to provide the opportunity to choose between good and evil, it makes some sense. This conceopt eliminates a God who casts a devil down to torment people (not very nice) and then damns, destroys or punishes those people simply because they fell victim to the devil that God himself cast out because HE didn't want him around. For two entities to be at war, they certainly seem to be buddies in Job.
Hello again Molly...well, this interest in Satan, devils, demons and such didn't come as a result of NDE. It's come as a result of searching for valid truth...in other words, something to believe that makes logical sense to me...this is why I came here and this is why the interest in this...Honestly, in much of Christendom, I find a God of mistakes...a creation that goes bad and he did it anyway...letting a supernatural devil wreak havoc on humans simply because he's at war with this devil..the damnation of the world for what they did or did not believe...the list goes on.
That's why it's important for me to get to the bottom of it...I know there's life after life...but now I need something that makes sense, to hold onto about that.
I didn't find much sense in this powerful devil who God would've known would turn and rebel but did nothing about it and then cast this devil down to torment humans...and then punishes them afterward for something that he should have avoided to begin with.
I was shocked when I found out about this "devil" from the Jews, and the explanations as to how this devil was mistranslated and invented. What the Jews said about 'the satan' as an emissary working for God made sense to me..it removed the God of mistakes..and it removed the God who threw out a super devil to torment humans just because he didn't want this devil around. That made NO sense to me at all. It still doesn't.
And I came here because the UR people had the guts to expose "hell"...yet it seems they now want to say the Jews didn't get it when it comes to this devil! It seems quite convenient to me.
Although, in no way do I say this disrespectfully towards you or anyone else here. Be sure of that.
Oh, and also Molly, when that experience happened to me, a preacher told me that it was really the devil who had orchestrated all of it...that's another reason that led me to investigate the devil and these demons...I have only seen a little on the "demons" but it already sort of looks to me like these demons are not what most of Christianity is claiming they are either.
Molly, can I ask you...are there UR people here who would actually say that a "devil" does not exist, and that 'the satan' does? Are there some here who would indeed say that?
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 07:07:01 PM
Oh, and also Molly, when that experience happened to me, a preacher told me that it was really the devil who had orchestrated all of it...that's another reason that led me to investigate the devil and these demons...I have only seen a little on the "demons" but it already sort of looks to me like these demons are not what most of Christianity is claiming they are either.
Bobson, what do you make of the demons that Jesus drove out of the man into the herd of pigs?
What were they?
Mark 5:11-13 - A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank and were drowned.
...They could even speak...
I really would like to hear your take on this if you have time.
QuoteI already knew what the Jews said, I wanted to know what the UR people here said because they had the guts to dig and eliminate the myth of hell and eternal punishment.
I think many of them would agree with you. Don't know where they are though. Maybe all on vacation. So all you have is me. lol And I went to hell, met satan, shook his hand, and was saved by Jesus. And I did all that without dying. So you can't convince me he's not real rofl.
QuoteAnd I came here because the UR people had the guts to expose "hell"...yet it seems they now want to say the Jews didn't get it when it comes to this devil! It seems quite convenient to me.
No, I'm just speaking for me. Many others here would agree with you I think. Maybe I should be quiet and see if they come along and say something. Plus, I never said the Jews didn't get it with regards to the devil--he shows up in the third chapter of their Book. I believe there were three beings there, Adam, Eve, and Satan, just like described.
Regarding proving NDE--there is a pediatrician who wrote a book--can't remember his name now, but he saw that many children he saved from death described the same experiences to him--so he asked them to draw pictures and describe what they saw--and there are many similarities among what they say they saw--tunnel, white light, angels, etc.
This is really the first generation to come back from death on a routine basis, because of our technology and knowledge, but--
Luke 16:31
... If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Hello Molly, I have to be short here because I have to go to bed! I can't comment much on the "demons" thing because I just don't think I have found out enough about it to do so. What I will say is, as I understand it..."demon" means "knowing one"...if this is true it seems to be a long way from fallen devils. I also sometimes wonder if some of this NT stuff came from pagan sources like the Egyptians...I have seen Christians' articles claiming this to be true...and they tied the "hell" thing into the Egyptians as well.
When I see words like "evil spirits" I don't necessarily see those as being "demons"...this is speculation on my part, but I often wonder if these evil spirits were nothing more than earthbound souls. The spiritualists would not deny that this kind of thing happens...they just call it obsession or attachment, instead of possession. They do however say that a devil and demons do not exist...they say these things are 'attaching' malevolent and malicious spirits who do this kind of thing for a variety of reasons that I just don't have time right now to get into.
But that's a fast answer.
Hi, yes I've asked about that...Adam, Eve and devil...the Jews say the serpent was not a devil and in fact I think they say that it was not even 'the satan'. I haven't dug into that too far yet...but I intend to.
Hi Molly, that doctor you mentioned...his name is Dr. Melvin Morse.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 07:10:49 PM
Molly, can I ask you...are there UR people here who would actually say that a "devil" does not exist, and that 'the satan' does? Are there some here who would indeed say that?
There are people here who say the satan is just a name for the adversarial side of man [fallen man]--adversary to God, that is. I can't really do justice to what they say, but my understanding of it is that satan does not exist as an independent being [that is, independent of man].
I see...thanks for explaining that
Did I make you cringe when I mentiond "spiritualists"? :bigGrin:
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 07:30:44 PM
Did I make you cringe when I mentiond "spiritualists"? :bigGrin:
No, but they make me cringe lol.
Maybe when you wake up, whitewings will have dug up some other threads for you.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 07:01:20 PMletting a supernatural devil wreak havoc on humans simply because he's at war with this devil.
War is at defeating your enemy. God has just to think about winning that war and satan is defeated.
I wonder what this is about...
Matthew 8:28-29 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Molly, on an side note here, as I'm sitting wondering why I'm not in bed...did you know that there are those who refer to themselves as Christian Spiritualists...who do not deny the resurrection...did you know this? I didn't, but I found out about them.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 07:48:13 PM
Molly, on an side note here, as I'm sitting wondering why I'm not in bed...did you know that there are those who refer to themselves as Christian Spiritualists...who do not deny the resurrection...did you know this? I didn't, but I found out about them.
I didn't know that, no.
Well Whitewings, I don't mean to be difficult...but what you posted I would still have to say, I can't accept the NT as proof of devils...there has to be a correspondence on this with the Jewish version of the OT...and there isn't one when it comes to a mighty "devil"...the NT contained "hell" too, until we discovered that "hell" did not exist...maybe now we'll discover that the devil does not exist either...
Until there is a direct correlation of the devil (not the satan) to the Jewish version of OT, I'm not able to accept the NT as "proof" of a devil...I'm not talking about "the satan"...I'm talking about the supernatural "devil" that seems to me to be an invention...or maybe a confused translation...I hope that's all it is.
At this point I don't trust any translation word that is "devil" or "devils"...until I see a direct correlation to the Jewish version of the OT..and so far there isn't one...so I would have to say the stories about devils in the NT might be concocted by the church...or else mistranslated as "evil spirits"...and if that's the case they are not fallen devils at all. They might even be malicious earthbound entities who have attached themselves for a variety of reasons.
Even the spiritualists don't deny that Jesus Christ was casting out "something" but they insist that it was not typical Christian devils and demons.
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 07:52:44 PM
Well Whitewings, I don't mean to be difficult...but what you posted I would still have to say, I can't accept the NT as proof of devils...
It was no statement. It was a question.
I'm open to views from both sides.
OK my friend :laughing7:
JUST IN CASE ANYONE IS INTERESTED...HERE IS A LETTER I GOT FROM A RABBI REGARDING THE 'DEVIL' AND THE SATAN:
The Christians don't understand how an angel of G-d can try to seduce people to disobey G-d, so they came to the unsupported conclusion that Satan must have rebelled against G-d.
This is completely contrary to everything Judaism believes. We reject that interpretation entirely.
Jews do not see it that way, and we never have. The Satan is also not working for himself.
The Hebrew word "Satan" means "Hinderer." To hinder someone means to hold him back, to try to prevent him from doing something. G-d created the Hinderer to give us work to do in this world. Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of the Satan. The Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.
Temptation is there to try and deter us. It gives us the ability to do the wrong thing. More importantly, it gives us the ability to look at evil and refuse to do it. By presenting us with the opportunity to do evil, it gives us the ability to choose between good and evil.
The ability to choose between good and evil is what gives us free will.
So, in order for us to work for the good that Hashem wants to give us, the good of the World to Come, we need something to deter us. That is the ability to do evil. Satan is our Evil Inclination (Yetzer Hara). The Evil Inclination tries to prevent us from doing good, because Hashem has commanded the Evil Inclination to do that.
Each of us every day fights with the Satan. We all have temptations, throughout the day. But we, as the Children of Israel, have the power to overcome even angels, if we work at it. Therefore, the Talmud says that men are greater than angels, for we can fight with an angel (Satan) and win.
Satan is not, as the Christians think, a rebellious angel. How impossible.
Furthermore, humans have Satan to tempt us. Angels have no Satan to tempt them. Who would be Satan's Satan? An ultra-Satan?
The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.
A man once came to a Rabbi, very troubled. He said to the Rabbi, "Please pray to Hashem to take away my Evil Inclination. I do so many sins, and I want to stop sinning!"
The Rabbi answered, "Then what would be your purpose in this world, if you had no Evil Inclination? Your purpose in life is to overcome your personal Evil Inclination. That is what you were created for! Hashem has enough angels in heaven. He doesn't need one more. He created you human, so that you could improve yourself."
Humans can improve themselves, and that is their purpose in this world. Angels, however, cannot improve themselves. That's not their purpose. Angels are therefore said to be "standing." They cannot become better, and they cannot rise any higher than they are. They are, so to speak, standing.
Isaiah, when describing a Heavenly scene, says "Seraphim were standing around Him...." (Isaiah 6:2). (Seraphim are a type of angel.) Spiritually, angels are stuck at whatever level Hashem created them.
Humans are different. Humans can rise by improving themselves. For that reason, we are described as "walkers." Therefore the Prophet Zachariah told the High Priest, "This is what Hashem, L-rd of Hosts says: if you walk in My ways, and if you observe My safeguards, you and your sons after you will be the High Priests, and you and your sons will thus guard my Holy Temple, and I will make you walkers among these who are standing" (Zachariah 3:7).
The Prophet Zachariah was saying that in the Next World they will be walkers among the standers, which means humans among angels.
So the angels are referred to as perpetually standing, but we are movers. Our purpose is to keep on moving, to keep on improving ourselves, and to keep on rising.
And how do we do it? By constant battle with the Evil Inclination.
So now we have to revise our understanding of Satan. Satan is not a fallen angel. Satan is merely an angel with a dirty job. Satan does not have a rival kingdom. Satan is not in competition with G-d, and Satan does not want followers or worshipers. He's not even happy when people obey him and sin.
So, no, Satan does not wear a red suit, or carry a trident. Nor does he wear a business suit. Satan is a force of evil in the world that we must resist. Satan most often appears as a desire within you. Of course, there is no shortage of things in the world to tempt us to sin.
Likewise, the snake in the Garden of Eden was not Satan either, though confused Christians think it was. The snake had his own motivations, which I will not go into now. He was what the Torah calls a "Seducer".
None of us are capable of destroying Satan. What we are expected and commanded to do is to gain the upper hand over our personal Satans. And Hashem helps us do this, constantly. The Talmud says that the Evil Inclination constantly attempts to destroy us spiritually, and Hashem constantly helps us and gives us the means with which to overcome our Evil Inclinations.
When this world comes to an end, and the Next World begins, the Day of Judgment will take place. After that, Satan's work will be done.
There will no longer be any need for a Tempting Angel. Satan will cease to exist. It will not be a sad day at all.
Nor will it be unfair treatment of Satan. It will be like turning off a machine. Angels are not like humans, with human emotions and desires. They exist merely to follow Hashem's instructions, for the greater glory of Hashem.
That's the reason we exist too -- to follow Hashem's instructions for the greater glory of Hashem. So Satan was created to struggle against us, and we were put into this world to struggle against Satan.
But that was not the purpose of our being created. When the struggle is over we will begin to receive the reward for having struggled. We will be brought in to the Next World, and the struggle will end.
Bobson, are you saying that in Job an angel killed Jobs family?
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 08:13:41 PM
So, no, Satan does not wear a red suit, or carry a trident.
He surely does!
(http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/bsd%20linux%20devil.JPG)
QuoteLikewise, the snake in the Garden of Eden was not Satan either, though confused Christians think it was. The snake had his own motivations, which I will not go into now. He was what the Torah calls a "Seducer".
More confusion :sigh:
QuoteNone of us are capable of destroying Satan. What we are expected and commanded to do is to gain the upper hand over our personal Satans. And Hashem helps us do this, constantly. The Talmud says that the Evil Inclination constantly attempts to destroy us spiritually, and Hashem constantly helps us and gives us the means with which to overcome our Evil Inclinations.
That sounds like a battle between good and evil. A managed purposeful battle but still a battle...
Here the Pharisees refer to Satan as the prince, meaning the ruler, of the devils--
Matthew 9:34
But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils."devil"G1140
δαιμόνιον
daimoniondahee-mon'-ee-on
Neuter of a derivative of G1142;
a daemonic being; by extension a deity: - devil,
god.Here, the Pharisees show that they have a familiar name for Satan--
Matthew 12:24
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.BeelzebubG954
Βεελζεβούλ
Beelzeboulbeh-el-zeb-ool'
Of Chaldee origin (by parody upon [H1176]); dung god; Beelzebul,
a name of Satan: - Beelzebub.
in the Hebrew--
H1176
בּעל זבוּב
ba‛al zebûbbah'-al zeb-oob'
From H1168 and H2070; Baal of (the) Fly; Baal Zebub,
a special deity of the Ekronites: - Baal-zebub.
Sounds like the Pharisees considered Satan a 'god,' not an angel.
QuoteThe truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.
Your Rabbi is saying that Satan is one of God's angels. That means he considers him a separate entity. So now we could say that your Rabbi and the Pharisees agree that Satan is a being that is independent of man.
In Jude, we have a dispute between the archangel Michael and Satan over the body of Moses. Here Michael treats Satan with respect, asking for the Lord to rebuke him, implying Satan is more powerful than Michael.
9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. --Jude 1
And here is talk about rebelling angels--
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. --Jude 1
Quote from: Molly on February 23, 2010, 12:04:29 AM
Here the Pharisees refer to Satan as the prince, meaning the ruler, of the devils--
We also have to realize that what the pharasees believed may not be the truth since we are told not to follow their doctrine.
Bio-luminescence or living light is nothing like dung flies? :coffee2:
"The quick and the dead."
LOL
When I saw the Hebrew definition for that name, I realized that's where Golding got the title of his book, Lord of the Flies.
Interesting title for Satan.
In Lord of the Flies, the beast began as a product of the boys' (or mans) imaginations.
Thus, they gave their fears a name.
"Nothing is anything, until you label it something."
peacemaker
Hi Bobson,
what is the connection in your post between NDE, satan and Jesus?
a lot of things are said here but I don't get what you're actually after in this post...
did you see someone in your NDE of wwhom you're not sure who it is? are you not sure whether it was Jesus or satan...as both are seen by some to be "morningstars"?
I have watched people giving evidence of the NDEs on video and a lot of them talk about meeting a person who is a bright light and love, peace and kindness flows from this light being...
Quote from: noname on February 23, 2010, 09:15:32 AM
I have watched people giving evidence of the NDEs on video and a lot of them talk about meeting a person who is a bright light and love, peace and kindness flows from this light being...
Like this one: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen021.html
Any idea why those visions most often happen when someone is nearly dead? Because the carnal mind loses control over the spirit?
Hello everybody...
There is no connection to the experience I encountered with satan and Jesus Christ. What happened to me is a long story, it was profound, it was very logical and orderly...it was fantastic...yet so many Christians have made me wish it had never happened at all.
The reason I have come up with the satan and devil stuff is because I can't reconcile myself to a God that seems to be one of mistakes...as I keep saying. The God who created all, and then it failed, then he had to come up with a backup plan, and according to most of Christendom that backup plan is failing as well, he casts out a devil and permits mankind to be tormented by this devil and followers and damns or punishes the the humans after they become lost or fall victim to this same devil, etc.
Does this make any sense? It doesn't to me. If I was the creator and did all of this, it seems to me that I would be the one who should be held responsible, not the humans, because it is directly me who is at the control of all of this. How do I punish someone for falling victim to a devil that I cast out into their midst? How do I damn someone for that? I made a creation and should have known that it would all "fall" (because I'm omnipotent) but I did it anyway...then I permitted this devil to torment all of my creation after I cast him out because of my own initial actions...then I punished the humans because they were deceived by the same devil that I am the one who cast into their midst...then I had to sacrifice myself TO myself so that I could forgive the humans for what I caused in the very beginning. And for what? For the sake of free will? Is that a reason? It just doesn't seem like a valid reason to me for any of this...if it were me I would consider myself a creator who has made a lot of mistakes and then blames others for my own mistakes. It just doesn't seem rational to me.
When I discovered that there was no hell and no concept of eternal punishment either, it made a bit more sense, but it still doesn't make complete sense to me for the reasons that I've written. When I discovered that the Jews also said that there is no 'devil', I almost fell off my chair...and their explanation of 'the satan' actually made sense to me because it removed the God who 'failed' in a huge 'fall'...it removed the God that allowed people to be tormented because of a huge 'mis-fire' and the casting out of an awful creature into people' midst under the excuse of free will. Teh Christian 'evil one' seems to me to have come about by a mistake prone God who is in a battle against a 'devil' that God didn't want so he gave the gift of this devil to people to suffere with! The Jews idea of 'the satan' made more sense because at least it was part of a plan instead of part of a 'backfire'.
So, I know there is life after life, for sure. But it's like knowing the time without having a clock. I'm looking for a 'clock'. I feel pretty sure that the compass is "love" plain and simple, and this is universal. It's the God of mistakes and backup plans for those mistakes that I can't find a way to believe in. I am interested in Jesus Christ and I take him seriously, I just can't help but now wonder just how much of what is written, he actually said, because it seems to imply that he talks about this 'devil' sometimes...of which his own people claim has never existed. And it makes me wonder exactly who wanted a devil and why...it sounds very much to me like the people who wanted a hell also wanted a devil so they could have a being that could put you in their hell. If they have a hell, they have to have a ruler for it, who is capable of getting you into it.
And this is why I'm not able to accept the NT as 'proof' of the devil...I have no way of knowing what was manipulated in those writings. I have seen some Christians writing articles about hell and stating that the Jews got involved with the Egyptians and that this is partly where this hell came from...they claimed, and then supported with evidence, that these gospels were written by Egyptian Jews. It seems to me that somehow 'the satan' has turned into 'the devil' and the two have completely different meanings...and this is why I'm really only interested in the Jews version of the OT, to see how it compares with the Christian OT, which has already been tainted with 'hell', and from what I can see, also seems to be tainted with a 'devil' as well.
There is a huge difference between a 'satan' that is an emissary of God and a 'devil' that is a powerful being who is fighting with God. Is it possible that a being could be so stupid? None of this makes any sense to me and I was hoping to find someone who had researched all of this thoroughly, using the Jewish version of the OT, and to see what they had come up with...as long as they weren't biased in the direction of "proving" a devil that seems to have popped into Christianity.
The Jewish 'the satan' makes a lot more sense to me than the Christian 'devil' does...although I can't say that EITHER make total sense to me.
I also can't swallow what so many Christians say about 'satan' being a light...especially the light of NDEs. Think about this logically...that would be a pretty bad joke, wouldn't it? A God who, on top of everything else, permits this devil to appear as a light...permits this devil to radiate love...to radiate forgiveness...does this actually make sense? How am I supposed to find a way to like a God who permits things like this? How on earth am I supposed to like a God who permits a devil to masquerade as all these different things, including 'loving lights' in NDEs? What could be worse than permitting such a thing?
I sometimes wonder if these "lights" have been going on for a long time, and when they happened to people who might not have been so "Christ-like" in Paul's day, with the same 'message' of unconditional love and forgiveness, he had no way to explain how God could possibly be 'saving' or 'loving' these 'bad' people, other than to say it is 'satan' masquerading as a light because he couldn't fathom how people who had been 'bad' might still be able to be loved and forgiven so easily and unconditionally!
Although I don't know, I have serious doubts that this 'devil' exists...although I'm open to being convinced otherwise...but it's going to take more than the Christian OT and NT to convince me...I was hoping to find the answers to all of this.
Also, the vast majority of these NDEs speak of being "one"...they speak of "all is one". Now this sounds a lot different to me than 'we are all fallen and cut off'. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to sort this out...if someone believes that the Bible is absolutely 100% true and that anything that doesn't fit with it 100% is false, then I guess they'll say "all is one" is another trick of satan...anyone who doesn't believe the Bible is absolutely 100% true and there is no other, might see otherwise...and there seems to be no way to sort it out.
This is why I'm seeking this 'devil' and why I'm not willing to use the Christian Bible to prove the Bible...to me, the NT should be able to correlate to the Jewish version of the OT at least on simple things like "hell" and a "devil"...and it does not appear to.
I also do not trust things that come from the Latin Vulgate either. It seems to me that the Catholic church played a big part in establishing "hell"...and now I wonder if they also played a part in establishing a "devil" as well.
The Jewish 'satan' makes a bit of sense to me...the Christian 'devil' makes none...it all smacks very much of the same old hell-fire and brimstone concept.
However, I have not written any of this to be offensive to anyone at this website...I appreciate what people like Gary have done and I appreciate that Christians like Gary, and I'm sure many others here, seem to "live out" a God that is far more believable than most other Christians do. I certainly cannot find a way to "love" a God that damns my family, or anyone else for that matter...yet so many people have no problem with that...including the Catholics as well. I made the mistake of telling a preacher what happened to me and of course he informed me that it was the devil. I'm looking for an unbiased "study" into 'the satan' and 'the devil'...using sources that have the least chance of being tainted...I'm not looking for someone to prove there is a 'devil'...I'm looking for someone who did unbiased research...someone who didn't care either way if they found out a 'devil' existed or not...using more than the Christian OT and NT.
Please remember that I have not written any of this to offend anyone...only searching for answers. I'm actually really glad that there are Christians in the world who are like Gary Amireault and the people who run this website...and I include you, Molly, you've been nice to me and I appreciate it very much.
Whitewings: Any idea why those visions most often happen when someone is nearly dead? Because the carnal mind loses control over the spirit?
ANS:Well, the spiritualists would say that the spirit/soul will actually leave the body even before the body dies...and that when someone dies they are actually out of the body even before their heart stops, etc., and that any pain stops before someone actually dies.
I do know people who claim to have been out of the body numerous times and can verify things they encountered while out...I know one particular person who was actually SEEN by another person while he was out of the body.
Now, looking back, it seems like this 'separation' actually started to happen when I was in a car accident as well...before the NDE happened with me...I felt a bit like part of me was going to 'separate'...and now after this dramatic experience, I wonder if that's what was happening.
I also know a lady who was in the hospital in an emergency and was suddenly found herself out of her body and in the room where her mother and dad were and later recounted their conversation to them.
In the late '60s, professor Charles Tart tried an experiment while he was in college. He setup a makeshift 'lab' when he met a lady who claimed that she sometimes left her body...he did an experiment with her for a few days, and monitored her brain waves, and had setup a way to view her body, etc. He put a card with a five digit number on a high ledge in the room where she was...on one of those days she informed him that she had been out of her body and knew the number, and told him what it was...and she was right. You can find him telling the details of this online...it's not hard to find. This has never been duplicated, to my knowledge, but right now Dr. Sam Parnia has a study underway called "Aware"...where they have implemented objects in emergency rooms, to see if NDE people are able to see these objects from above their body...in an interview he said that the preliminary results were positive and it was now being extended to various hospitals around the UK, USA, and others.
He didn't come right out and say it, but when he said this...it's my opinion that they've already got many people who have identified the objects from impossible vantage points, etc. because he seemed pretty confident about it...and this is taking place over a couple of years and then results will be announced. Personally, I think they've already numerous results and they will spread it to other countries and cities and when the results are announced they will try to ensure that there is no loophole for pseudo-skeptics...who will of course be threatened by those results and will do anything to try and invalidate it and smear Parnia and his associates.
Also, Whitewings...I think the "mind" actually IS the soul or spirit, whatever you want to call it. It's not the mind that 'loses' control of the spirit...it's the brain that loses control over the 'mind', which actually is the spirit/soul. I not accept that the brain generates the mind...I know much of science thinks that way...but not all people of science do. People who profess the reality of life after life are in pretty good academic company.
I also think that science is a lot like fundamentalists...they insist that they know the 'truth' and that there is NO other. It's this kind of thinking that needs to be updated...and until it is progress will be very, very slow. Fundamentalists of any persuasion don't let go easily. If Dr. Parnia's team of science yields positive results, and I think it already has, then that will shake up a lot of things...but there will still be fundamentalist scientists who will try to find any way of invalidating it that they can to protect their own materialistic darwinism.
After all, one materialist doctor, when confronted with the reality that blind people see in NDEs, came up with the 'conclusion' that it's not really happening...he decided that somehow the blind person's brain is 'throwing' itself up near the ceiling...and the other doctor's brains were somehow 'throwing' themselves up to the same spot near the ceiling, and 'transferring' their brain information to the 'thrown' brain of the blind person. Wow! That would be remarkable indeed wouldn't it? This is the length that pseudo-skeptics will go to in order to protect their belief.
Quote from: Bobson on February 23, 2010, 01:05:30 PM
When I discovered that the Jews also said that there is no 'devil', I almost fell off my chair...and their explanation of 'the satan' actually made sense to me because it removed the God who 'failed' in a huge 'fall'...it removed the God that allowed people to be tormented because of a huge 'mis-fire' and the casting out of an awful creature into people' midst under the excuse of free will.
Satan or devil whats the difference. The Christian fallen angel and the Jewish angel with a mission from God have the same effect. They tempt people. "...I send you a strong delusion..."
QuoteI am interested in Jesus Christ and I take him seriously, I just can't help but now wonder just how much of what is written, he actually said, because it seems to imply that he talks about this 'devil' sometimes...of which his own people claim has never existed.
I think the problem isn't that a translation uses devil, satan or somthing else. Words are just a bunch of letters with a defenition. The problem lays in the corrupted defenition.
Like age gets redefined as forever. Grave turns into a lava pit. Etc AFAIK the word hell is a good translation of the Hebrew words for grave etc. But the defention got redefined. So whatever Jesus said should be understood with the word defenition in the time He spoke them. If the HS personally translated tthe Bible into English it would be a perfect translation for a while. But in 200 years the word defenitions are different, and things seems wrong. A classic example is the gay=happy turned into gay=homosexual.
So:
a] What did Jesus say?
b] What was the word defenition at that time?
c] What was the word defenition during translation? -> does it match b?
d] What is the current word defenition? -> does it match b and c?
QuoteAnd it makes me wonder exactly who wanted a devil and why...it sounds very much to me like the people who wanted a hell also wanted a devil so they could have a being that could put you in their hell. If they have a hell, they have to have a ruler for it, who is capable of getting you into it.
I think devil is a good translation. Likely what Jesus said. BUT a pagan defenition got attached to it.
QuoteAnd this is why I'm not able to accept the NT as 'proof' of the devil...I have no way of knowing what was manipulated in those writings.
Same goes for Jewish versions. Goto Amazon and read reviews of the JPS and the Stone edition. Both translations by respected Rabbi's.
And guess what.... some give the Stone edition 5 stars and others 1 star because it's so very wrong. And of course the other way around
QuoteThe Jewish 'the satan' makes a lot more sense to me than the Christian 'devil' does...although I can't say that EITHER make total sense to me.
Depends on the denomination. I think you will have a hard time finding anyone on this forum that things satan/devil is part of a out of control unforseen war.
QuoteI also can't swallow what so many Christians say about 'satan' being a light...especially the light of NDEs. Think about this logically...that would be a pretty bad joke, wouldn't it?
Hidden agenda. If that 'light' says "I'm Jesus and tell everyone that 95% will burn in hell forever." The that was a NDE with Jesus. But if the light would say "I and Father love you all and we will all enjoy being together." then that's absolute proof of satanic deception.
But who's to blame? Jesus said a wrong word? Corrupt translation? Changed defentions? Or just people twisting everything to their own believes.....
QuoteAlthough I don't know, I have serious doubts that this 'devil' exists...although I'm open to being convinced otherwise...but it's going to take more than the Christian OT and NT to convince me...I was hoping to find the answers to all of this.
Everything that does or doesn't exist is according to plan and under full control.
:thumbsup:
Whitewings:I think devil is a good translation. Likely what Jesus said. BUT a pagan defenition got attached to it.
ANS:OK, I could see that as a possibility. Is there any particular reason that you say this that I should know?
Whitewings:Hidden agenda. If that 'light' says "I'm Jesus and tell everyone that 95% will burn in hell forever." The that was a NDE with Jesus. But if the light would say "I and Father love you all and we will all enjoy being together." then that's absolute proof of satanic deception. But who's to blame? Jesus said a wrong word? Corrupt translation? Changed defentions? Or just people twisting everything to their own believes.....
ANS:Yes, this is sort of what I'm saying...if someone sees a light and it says "everyone is going to hell" then that seems to be "authentic" to most Christians...but when a non-Christian, perhaps even a person who is deemed by many Christians to be sinful, sees a light says "you are loved and have a purpose" then that seems to be "authentically" satan. And this is what I just don't understand...that's a pretty cruel joke to be played on someone and I can't find a way to believe such a God that would permit this to happen to people, exists. I think it's also one of the reasons that "neutral" NDE people actually reject Christianity and turn to other sources, like new age, etc.
MAYBE A BIT OFF TOPIC...BUT AN ALTERNATE VIEW OF DEVILS, DEMONS AND POSSESSION...FROM AN ALLEGED EXORCIST:
Please find below a letter to the editor of a TV-Station, who prepared a show about the subject exorcisms together with Wanda Pratnicka:
Cordial greetings,
I was born three years after the end of World War II. I had skills from birth. I saw and knew things that others couldn't see and know. All my life people of various ages have come to me for help, comfort, understanding and advice. I never looked for them; it was they themselves who somehow found me out. At a certain moment I learned to see an illness and its cause long before the appearance of its physical symptoms. However, I help only when a patient decides to help him or herself.
I am led in everything I do by God, the Higher Power and Intelligence. It is that which prompts me, tells me what I should do at a given moment. That's why I never wonder how I can help. It happens automatically. I know what to do, what questions to ask, what answers to give. I know much more about the patients, about their problems, than they know themselves. I have thousands of proofs to show that I do it well.
Today I am a therapist for ghosts and for people. They both need the same care, understanding and the same dose of love.
I'm glad that you want to look at the subject of exorcisms and not because I would be participating in it but because it's an exceptionally burning issue. It has more detractors than proponents and that's because the majority of people believes it's nonsense for mankind in the twenty-first century, when the world has progressed so far, to believe in ghosts. It's not just a question of believing in their existence but of acknowledging the fact that ghosts (beings without bodies) have such a great influence on people's lives.
There are huge numbers of individual people (every one of them thinks they are the only ones affected) who are suffering greatly, whom nobody wants to or can help. This is not however a phenomenon which a normal person (and that includes priests) will want to believe. For it inspires fear, irritates with its irrationality and to many people seems to be completely insane. It's therefore much easier to mock it, regard it as prejudice or superstition. This, however, is hiding one's head in the sand in the (usually vain) hope that nothing like this will ever touch us or those closest to us.
Till now exorcisms have been carried out only by the Church. A church exorcism is a battle with Satan and as we know every battle has to end with victory for one of the sides and defeat for the other. A church exorcist expels Satan from a person. But where is this ghost - "Satan" - supposed to go? Having been expelled it wanders the world of the living and at the first opportunity will possess another person. That's why church exorcisms are, in many cases, of little or no effect. And anyway, in the majority of cases priests will not undertake an exorcism but will concentrate on sending the people needing help to a psychiatrist. This isn't, however, the priests' fault. I've explained quite extensively why this happens in my book "Possessed by Ghosts - Exorcisms of the 21st Century" in the chapter on exorcisms.
I personally do not believe in Satan. In twenty five thousand, sometimes severe or demonic cases of possession of my patients I have not come across Satan. In the majority of these cases these people have already sought help from priests, been treated by psychiatrists and sometimes spent years in psychiatric institutions.
An exorcist - at least in my case - is someone who releases people from ghosts and ghosts from people. An exorcist doesn't expel them from a person any old where but teaches them, persuades them and helps them to pass through to the other side (to God).
I often have to apply therapy, in the form of psychotherapy, to the ghost doing the possessing the same way as I do to the person possessed. During it I explain to them the interdependence they are tied into and how they can release one another from it. It often happens that when I explain its situation to a ghost it will willingly release the person and leave. Similarly, a person will also release the ghost. There are cases, however, when a ghost is completely deaf to all arguments and then it's hard work to persuade it to change its decision. It is not, though, a question of whether or not a ghost will leave but rather of how much time will elapse before it does so.
Anyone can be possessed by ghosts regardless of their age, sex, education, religious affiliation, or social standing. Naturally, one person will have greater predisposition to being possessed and another lesser, but absolutely everyone is threatened by it. The ghost of any person who has died and not passed through to the other side of death's curtain may be the one which has just possessed us; so it may be our mother, father, brother, sister, grandfather, granny, uncle, aunt, friend, work-mate, neighbor, school friend or some random ghost which just happened to be nearby. Sometimes it's a very strong bond of which both parties are unaware and which cannot be broken in any traditional way.
The reasons why a person's ghost did not pass through to the other side of death's curtain (to the Light, to God - different people have different names for it) are very many. I'll mention just some of them: Some ghosts won't leave since they think that they sinned so much in their lives that they're afraid of their punishment. They want to delay its imposition as far as possible into the future. Others don't really know where they're supposed to go since when they were alive they believed that their existence will end in the grave. Others again don't go because they are too attached to the material world: their possessions, their work, authority, sex, habits. Others still want to leave but their family didn't want to let them go.
However, most souls don't leave because they do not realize that they have died and the reason for that is that after their death nothing much really has changed. They continue to feel, see, hear just as they did in their lifetime. So what could possibly tell them that they are not alive? If they had before their death had so much as an awareness that after death nothing will change then it would be easier for them to face reality.
Possession is based on this: a ghost which has not passed through to the other side of death's curtain has to "hook up" to some person in order to survive. Then it steals the person's energy. For many ghosts this is, however, not enough so then they steal the person's body as well. If such a ghost also succeeds in usurping a person's mind then we're dealing with total possession. Such a person is a puppet which is completely governed by a ghost. Depending on whether this ghost used to be a good person when it was alive or a bad one, we will be dealing either with "demonic" possession or not.
Right at the very beginning possession may not be noticed at all. It causes a person to have mood swings, headaches, stomach aches and panic attacks. With the passage of time and according to the degree of possession, other disorders may follow - physical and mental - more severe personality disorders, severe pains, chronic or incurable diseases, stays in hospital - not just psychiatric ones. People who are possessed by ghosts frequently fall ill with diseases which the ghost had suffered from, or died of, earlier which indicates that very many sick people might well be cured if they only became aware of the fact that they are possessed and ensured that the ghost left them.
Very many people suffer completely not realizing why. My book reveals this dependence clearly and helps people to take charge of their lives. That is one of the reasons it was written.
Best wishes
Wanda Pratnicka
Quote from: Bobson on February 23, 2010, 03:26:55 PM
Whitewings:I think devil is a good translation. Likely what Jesus said. BUT a pagan defenition got attached to it.
ANS:OK, I could see that as a possibility. Is there any particular reason that you say this that I should know?
There are quite a few discussions on this forum, otehr UR forums/blogs, and the book section of this forum about word defenitions.
When you have 50 posts you will see another busy section of this forum. Also such posts there.
Not all agree with this but imo the defenition of "all, aion, fire, brimstone" are the pillars of the difference between UR and ET.
All and aion simply force twisting things into UR. Bit over simplified ofcourse but still very relevant to your question.
If satan is at war and causes havoc the satn is to blame and God is of the hook.
But what if God has full control over the being that creates the havoc. When people don't understand the way God works (due to word defenitions) they need to get God of the hook. So a bad guy is needed. Defenitions are very important.
Imagine I go to a hardcore ET forum and use as a signature a quote from a person that lived a few hundred years ago.
"Jesus was a gay person" How many seconds later will I be banned? But still at that time the quote was written I means Jesus was a happy/cheerful person. And that would be accepted.
Plus, of course pagan concepts slipped in. Constantine suddenly switched from many pagan God to The God. Augustine was a pagan worshipper to before he turned to The God. But did they fully turn? Or did they quite often read words with pagan defenitions.
Whitewings: But what if God has full control over the being that creates the havoc. When people don't understand the way God works (due to word defenitions) they need to get God of the hook. So a bad guy is needed. Defenitions are very important.
ANS:This is exactly what I'm thinking...I don't understand how there can be anything or any "being" that is at war with God...this is why "the satan" as the Jews were describing it actually made a bit of sense to me...it means that God is in control and that no "thing" and "being" is fighting with God...which would be the stupidest thing this "being" could ever attempt...and makes me wonder how on earth a God would ever permit such a thing as this "rebellious warrior" to torment humans and then punish the humans for falling victim to this horrendous tormentor who is stupid enough to war with God...I wish it made sense to me but it just doesn't.
Whitewings:Plus, of course pagan concepts slipped in. Constantine suddenly switched from many pagan God to The God. Augustine was a pagan worshipper to before he turned to The God. But did they fully turn? Or did they quite often read words with pagan defenitions.
ANS:How much do you know about Constantine and Augustine? Do you know enough about this to answer some questions about it for me?
Quote from: Bobson on February 24, 2010, 09:12:43 AM
ANS:How much do you know about Constantine and Augustine? Do you know enough about this to answer some questions about it for me?
Not a lot I fear. But.... I know how to Google and I'm not the only member around here that can potentially answer your questions.
You know, I've read 80% of all the books in "Scholars Corner" Things are sometime just mentioned. Not everything comes with 500 pages of documents to back it up.
I would say ask your questions (in a new thread). :thumbsup:
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 08:13:41 PMThe Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.
........
The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.
........
When this world comes to an end, and the Next World begins, the Day of Judgment will take place. After that, Satan's work will be done.
There will no longer be any need for a Tempting Angel. Satan will cease to exist. It will not be a sad day at all.
Nor will it be unfair treatment of Satan. It will be like turning off a machine. Angels are not like humans, with human emotions and desires. They exist merely to follow Hashem's instructions, for the greater glory of Hashem.
Still very weird. Satan did follow orders to the letter. No matter what the orders were they came from Father. How can obeying Father lead to be "turning off like a machine"?
:dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 25, 2010, 11:01:41 AM
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 08:13:41 PMThe Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.
........
The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.
........
When this world comes to an end, and the Next World begins, the Day of Judgment will take place. After that, Satan's work will be done.
There will no longer be any need for a Tempting Angel. Satan will cease to exist. It will not be a sad day at all.
Nor will it be unfair treatment of Satan. It will be like turning off a machine. Angels are not like humans, with human emotions and desires. They exist merely to follow Hashem's instructions, for the greater glory of Hashem.
Still very weird. Satan did follow orders to the letter. No matter what the orders were they came for Father. How can obeying Father lead to be "turning off like a machine"?
:dontknow:
QuoteThe truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.
Who says Satan is an angel?
Joshua 24:23
Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel."strange"H5236
נכר
nêkâr
nay-kawr'
From H5234;
foreign, or (concretely) a foreigner, or (abstractly) heathendom: - alien, strange (+ -er).
"gods"H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ymel-o-heem'
Plural of H433;
gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
...incline your heart unto..." the LORD God of Israel"Y'hôvâh 'ĕlôhı̂ym yiśrâ'êl"Israel"H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410;
he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.
1 Corinthians 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels?
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
I am a bit off topic but when my grandmother died years back I was living 800 miles away,I was not able to attend her funeral.
I was stressed bad cause I wanted to go, but couldn't.
I went to bed the night before her funeral and seemed I just laid down may have went to sleep briefly.
Suddenly at the end of my bed grandmother appeared, I said what you doing here grandma.
She said I wanted to say goodby stay sweet don't forget me.
She was lit up she glowed in the dark in her old familiar clothes.
I said I won't forget you, then as suddenly as she appeared she disappeared.
I have told this to a few on line and off, some say devil playing tricks some says my mind took me there.
It has been a great comfort for me over the years, gave me hope of seeing her again sometime.
Sorry for brief hi-jack, but seemed appropriate here. :cloud9:
NDE's are about seeing the after life. Isn't that what you saw? If yes it's on-topic :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 25, 2010, 09:29:11 PM
NDE's are about seeing the after life. Isn't that what you saw? If yes it's on-topic :thumbsup:
OK good! :cloud9:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 25, 2010, 09:29:11 PM
NDE's are about seeing the after life. Isn't that what you saw? If yes it's on-topic :thumbsup:
As an afterthought I wanted to say Grandmother was dead was to be buried the next day. She came to my bed the night before her funeral, that I wasn't able to attend.
This was an actual death.
Maybe Bobson or someone can comment on this experience.
I have a Catholic friend told me grandmother is a saint.
I don't know about that but in life she was.
Quote from: SQ on February 25, 2010, 10:26:19 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 25, 2010, 09:29:11 PM
NDE's are about seeing the after life. Isn't that what you saw? If yes it's on-topic :thumbsup:
As an afterthought I wanted to say Grandmother was dead was to be buried the next day. She came to my bed the night before her funeral, that I wasn't able to attend.
This was an actual death.
Maybe Bobson or someone can comment on this experience.
I have a Catholic friend told me grandmother is a saint.
I don't know about that but in life she was.
Loved that story. Lots of people have had experiences like that, including me.
Song of Solomon 8:6
Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame.
Quote from: Molly on February 25, 2010, 10:30:13 PM
Quote from: SQ on February 25, 2010, 10:26:19 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 25, 2010, 09:29:11 PM
NDE's are about seeing the after life. Isn't that what you saw? If yes it's on-topic :thumbsup:
As an afterthought I wanted to say Grandmother was dead was to be buried the next day. She came to my bed the night before her funeral, that I wasn't able to attend.
This was an actual death.
Maybe Bobson or someone can comment on this experience.
I have a Catholic friend told me grandmother is a saint.
I don't know about that but in life she was.
Loved that story. Lots of people have had experiences like that, including me.
Song of Solomon 8:6
Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame.
Awesome Sistas !!! :HeartThrob: this one verse goes great Molly with that verse
Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his
angels spirits, and
his ministers a flame of fire. awesome as this one too .... I still long to know more on the burning bush .. off topic maybe , maybe not lol.....
Exd 3:2 And
the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire,
and the bush [was] not consumed.
Blessings to you all............... :icon_flower:
Wow this thread is amazing!!! :HeartThrob:
SQ: "Maybe Bobson or someone can comment on this experience."
ANS:Hello SQ, and THANK YOU for posting your story and telling us about it. Just disregard anyone telling you that the "devil" is playing tricks on you. This is a wonderful experience and you are fortunate to have seen your grandmother. I have not said this before in this thread, but I will now...this has happened to me on several occasions as well...I have seen my mother three times since she passed from this world, and I have seen the parents of a friend of mine who had passed, and I have seen the father of a fundamentalist minister friend of mine as well...I never knew his father...and when I described the man I saw to him he confirmed that this was what his dad looked like. Of course, since he is a fundamentalist he thinks his dad is in hell because he didn't make a commitment to Jesus...nonsense. After I described the man to him and he confirmed it, I told him that I had SEEN this man who was his dad...and of course he told me that it's "satan" deceiving me. It seems he finds it more believable to think his dad is in hell. I have also seen a lady, who obviously has passed (because I saw her), and I don't know this lady...but I know who her son is, I just don't know him either. This happened one time when I went to church...and I know it was her son who was sitting in front of me...I would love to tell him about it and describe the lady to him to get confirmation from him but I haven't got the nerve to do that...in case he thought I was a lunatic or in case it confused him.
Molly, how would you feel about telling us about one of the times that this happened to you? Who did you see?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 25, 2010, 11:01:41 AM
Quote from: Bobson on February 22, 2010, 08:13:41 PMThe Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.
........
The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.
........
When this world comes to an end, and the Next World begins, the Day of Judgment will take place. After that, Satan's work will be done.
There will no longer be any need for a Tempting Angel. Satan will cease to exist. It will not be a sad day at all.
Nor will it be unfair treatment of Satan. It will be like turning off a machine. Angels are not like humans, with human emotions and desires. They exist merely to follow Hashem's instructions, for the greater glory of Hashem.
Still very weird. Satan did follow orders to the letter. No matter what the orders were they came from Father. How can obeying Father lead to be "turning off like a machine"?
:dontknow:
I am not sure where the first post of Bobson's is but I have to throw a wrench in your thoughts Bob.
An Angle is only and will always forever be= a message dilervery system, i.e. one who brings a message..... but messages can come through a thing seen or herd , like a special sign only understood only by the person that understands the sign and that could be a good sign or a sign lead by the carnal nature of our mind [5 senses of man](bad sign),
no matter how man defines angle, the bottom line is this: if the word you speak brings the hearer His Life, then "YOU" are a messenger of Life ,Good, God. If your message brings the hearer death and sin, then you are a messenger of Death, Bad, Carnal nature, 5 senses, and you are still darkened by the church system....
So, I think that you bob should read your post above and see how messed up your thought process is if you understand the true nature of Angle ... this is not a cut down it is just trying to show you how bad the system has messed with our minds in the last 2010 years...
I'm not really sure I understand that last post...my messed up thought processes? Messed up by the church? What church? Most churches I know are promoting a devil who in a war with God, and that seems pretty preposterous to me. Perhaps you want to take a look at this site regarding this devil...if that's what you were referring to, its penned by people who claim to be Christians:
http://www.realdevil.info/1-1.htm
And by the way annuit coeptis...I'll thank you for refraining from using your "correct" understanding of "angle" and not judging me...so THANK YOU.
Hi Bob, when I was in the pentacostal movement everything good acccording to them was of the devil, I dared not to tell them this experience.
I was distraught and God comforted me with her appearance and I have never doubted it being anything but good, it helped me through out the years.
I know I will see her again, she is in God's care.
There has been some experiences God has gave me for comfort, I have learned not to box God in.
(I believe your experiences!)
I have another experience when I lost my best friend my dog to death, almost a year now.
God gave me comfort in that too, but most think especially with a dog I am out of my mind, so I don't mention to people face to face.
Hello SQ, I'm happy for you that this happened with your grandmother...the things that have happened to me are very significant to me and I feel that I'm fortunate because I do not have to rely on blind faith.I would be very interested if you were willing to tell your story about a pet dog...I know many other people (and they are Christians) who say they have actually seen a deceased pet on more than one occasion even. Is this what happened to you? If you would rather send it to me as a private message, feel free to do that.
wow !!! SQ................
YOU TOO!! we had a dog we loved, he was as loyal as all get out and friend for life his name was AXEL when he died that night in out utiliy room we all grieved so bad over his loss ,my husband and son took him out later that night and buried him on the ridge a mile away from the house ! my daughter was so upset over his suffering howls and death she slept with me that night , but that following morning we heard him plain a day howl one last time , it was Axel ! and we both looked at each other and said you hear that ? she was freaked out and I said Axel is still with us Hon , most folks look for a reason not to Believe in life after death , but I tell you there is sure Life after physical death
and its Glory is Gods power though Jesus Christ over it / death the dead / the natural realm ! made know to those who believe and know Gods power and His glory over death in every form and way ...
we will see him again , I just know it by faith , that kind of love is eternal no matter what ''container '' the Lord put it in , our little angel Axel is still among the living though he be dead ..
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Gods power and LIFE is what makes HIM aGREAT and MIGHTY GOD to serve ! :HeartThrob:
Hi rosered and Bob, rose your experience sent chills down my body cause was so similar to mine. Unfortunately my dog had heart and lung problems and couldn't breath anymore with comfort.
He had already lived longer by 18 months than vet said he would I gave him breathing meds and did everything I could to help him. He was so uncomfortable my husband and I chose to take to vet to put down, that was the hardest thing I ever did in my life, I still wish I could have done differently.
Anyway,he woke me up every morning with his bark.. every morning without fail, I heard him bark the next morning I wanted to pet him he wasn't there.
My husband heard him too.
Then a few days later I was sitting crying like I had done, then I saw this little fat dog run up to me as I was on hassock still crying he pranced around and was like look at me I can breath.
I could only stare at him he knew I loved him and always would.
He was gone that quick. I asked God to let me have my dog back when I take my last breath, cause he was so special he meant so much too me.
I hav
My computer is acting up big time sent the post before I was finished so wanted to say sparrow and I exchanged a few pm here about our dogs that died almost a year for me.
I told her about his bark the day after, I still have those pm's been almost a year.
I have more to say but have to go pick up mothers medicine, hope to be back in a bit. :HeartThrob:
That was awesome Sis!
Thanks for sharing your experience with us , it is like our Axel one fur sure :winkgrin: !
Gods is Love ! and the proof of the Fruit is in the Root !
you cannot help but be rooted and grounded in Love when God blesses us in such ways ... this is by faith and not sight :gangel:
but you did get to see your little doggy , we did not see Axel
but we still believe ... GOD is so good that way ............... :HeartThrob:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
God knows we love our ''little buddies'' soooo much , sometimes its easier to love them than our own selves at times :mshock:
all things are possible with God !! and without faith its impossible to please Him
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
awesome !!I love this Chapter !!!
I knew a older man that used to listen to gospel/church music. His brother always complained his Hifi set was to loud. The night after his brother died his HiFi set suddenly was turned on quite loud.
The man was very convinced it was his brother sending a message.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 27, 2010, 10:04:38 PM
I knew a older man that used to listen to gospel/church music. His brother always complained his Hifi set was to loud. The night after his brother died his HiFi set suddenly was turned on quite loud.
The man was very convinced it was his brother sending a message.
I can say God sure helps us get through our losses.
WHITEWINGS: I knew a older man that used to listen to gospel/church music. His brother always complained his Hifi set was to loud. The night after his brother died his HiFi set suddenly was turned on quite loud.
ANS: That's a good story Whitewings, thanks for writing about it. I have a close friend whose dad passed several years ago. He and his dad were very close, and they had a Christian pastor friend who considered himself a musician, and made a recording of himself. My friend and his dad would listen to that recording and laugh among themselves because this recording was so bad! When my friend's dad had passed, this pastor friend of theirs insisted that this same song from his recording be played at the service, and of course, my friend and his family agreed. As soon as that particular song started playing at the service...the tape machine suddenly shut off and would not play anymore. My friend said he looked at his family and they all smiled, thinking "dad STILL doesn't like that song."
SQ, thanks for telling us about your dog friend, that's a great story as well, I appreciate you writing about it. I have a Christian friend who is actually a fundamentalist...her dog was hit by a car, but that evening she went into her room and saw the dog laying on the window ledge...she told me that she also saw the dog a couple of other times as well. I will also tell you that my sister and her husband had a cat that became ill and couldn't be helped and died. That evening her and her husband were sitting in their living room, and my sister felt the cat jump up on the couch and come and lay on her lap. She said that she couldn't see the cat but felt every step and even felt warmth when it came and laid on her lap. Unfortunately, fundamentalist Christians told her it was either her imagination or demons. Strangely, this event scared her for some reason, and she seemed to believe those fundamentalists...probably because she was afraid of what had happened.
And, Rosered, thank you for telling us about what happened with your beloved dog. There are so many people who have stories to tell like these that you, SQ, and Whitewings have written about...but so many who are Christians are not able to speak of these things because other people will tell them it is the devil, or that they are crazy.
A STORY FOR "SQ" AND "ROSERED".....
Lynn, at age thirteen, who had a near-death experience in which he sees his beloved dogs in heaven. Lynn underwent open-heart surgery at age thirteen to correct a condition she had had almost since birth. She was unable to run and play with the other kids, and she would on occasion turn blue and get sick. A large black Great Dane named Harvey was her constant companion and best buddy. Lynn's near-death experience is described below:
The last thing I remember in surgery was a male voice saying in a very matter-of-fact way, "Uh-oh, we have a problem here."
The next thing I knew I was floating around the ceiling looking down on my body. My chest was open wide and I could see my internal organs. I remember thinking how odd it was that my organs were a beautiful pearl gray, not at all like the bright red chucks in the horror flicks I loved to watch. I also noticed there was a black doctor and an Oriental one on the operating team. The reason this stuck in my mind is that I was brought up in a very white middle-class neighborhood, and I had seen black schoolteachers but never a black doctor. I'd met the operating team the day before, but they were all white.
Suddenly, I had to move on, so I floated into the waiting room, where my parents were. My father had his head buried in my mother's lap. He was kneeling at her feet, his arms wrapped around her waist, and he was sobbing. My mother was stroking his head, whispering to him. This scene shocked me, as my father was not prone to showing emotions. Once I realize they would be fine, I felt myself pulled into a horizontal tunnel.
The ride through the tunnel was like nothing else. I remember thinking, "So this is death."
The tunnel was dark, and every once in a while something that looking like lightning would flash across my path. These flashes were brilliant in color and didn't scare me. At the end of the tunnel was a bright light.
From the light came two dogs of mine. One was a collie named Mimi who had died three years previously from an infection, and the other was a box named Sam who had died two years before after being hit by a car. The dogs came running and jumped on me and kissed my face with their tongues. Their tongues weren't wet, and I felt no weight when they jumped on me. The dogs seemed to glow from a light that was inside them.
I recall saying to myself, "Thank you, God, for letting my dogs be alive."
I hugged my dogs as tight as I could.
I then called my dogs and together we started walking toward the light. All colors were in the light and it was warm, a living thing, and there were people as far as the eye could see, and they were glowing with an inner light - just like my dogs. In the distance I could see fields, hills, and a sky.
The light spoke and it said, "Lynn, it is not time for you yet. Go back, child."
I put my hand up to touch the top of the light. I knew then that I had touched the face of God. I told God that I loved him, and I wanted to stay with him.
Again the light said, "Lynn, go back. It is not time for you. You have work to do for me. Go back."
I know this sounds silly, but I asked the light, "If I go, can I come back and will my dogs still be here waiting for me?"
The light said yes, and then told me there were people who wanted to see me before I left. From out of the light came my maternal grandparents. I ran to them and embraced them. They were going to walk me part of the way back. Just as I was turning to leave, a man stepped from the light. He wore a full dress uniform, U.S. Navy. He was very tall and very blond, with blue eyes. I had never seen the man before, but he knew me and smiled.
"I am your uncle Franklin. Tell Dorothy that I'm okay and that the baby is with me. Tell her I never stopped loving her and that I am glad she is doing well. Tell her that when her time comes, I will come for her. Remember to tell her I love her."
As I turned, the man shouted, "Tell Dorothy, tell her you met Franklin and I'm okay and so is the baby."
My grandparents told me if I stayed any longer I might not make it back. But I wanted to talk with Jesus. I had a very important question to ask him. A beam of light, different from yet similar to the first one, covered me. I knew this light was Christ. I leaned against it for one moment and then asked my question.
"Dear Jesus, is it true that you gave me this heart condition so that I would have a cross to carry like you did?"
(Sister Agnes, my sixth-grade teacher, had told me that my heart condition was my cross to bear from Christ.)
I heard the voice of Christ vibrate through me as he said, "No, this heart condition of yours is not a cross from me for you to bear. This heart condition is a challenge to help you grow and stay compassionate. Now, go back."
As I walked back, my grandmother told me that my father was going to leave my mother and that I would be my mother's strength. I saw people hiding in the tunnel, people who were afraid to come into the light or who were disoriented about where they were. I expressed concern for them but was told not to worry, as an angel would be along to help them. Some of these people looked like soldiers. Then I remembered Vietnam and I knew where the soldiers were coming from."
It is documented that the revelations Lynn received in her near-death experience were later proven to be true, such as the black and Asian doctors, her uncle Franklin whom she did not know and the baby that her mother lost before Lynn was born, and her father leaving the family.
The Gray Champion
by Nathaniel Hawthorne
There was once a time when New England groaned under the actual pressure of heavier wrongs than those threatened ones which brought on the Revolution. James II, the bigoted successor of Charles the Voluptuous, had annulled the charters of all the colonies, and sent a harsh and unprincipled soldier to take away our liberties and endanger our religion. The administration of Sir Edmund Andros lacked scarcely a single characteristic of tyranny: a Governor and Council, holding office from the King, and wholly independent of the country; laws made and taxes levied without concurrence of the people immediate or by their representatives; the rights of private citizens violated, and the titles of all landed property declared void; the voice of complaint stifled by restrictions on the press; and, finally, disaffection overawed by the first band of mercenary troops that ever marched on our free soil. For two years our ancestors were kept in sullen submission by that filial love which had invariably secured their allegiance to the mother country, whether its head chanced to be a Parliament, Protector, or Popish Monarch. Till these evil times, however, such allegiance had been merely nominal, and the colonists had ruled themselves, enjoying far more freedom than is even yet the privilege of the native subjects of Great Britain.
At length a rumor reached our shores that the Prince of Orange had ventured on an enterprise, the success of which would be the triumph of civil and religious rights and the salvation of New England. It was but a doubtful whisper: it might be false, or the attempt might fail; and, in either case, the man that stirred against King James would lose his head. Still the intelligence produced a marked effect. The people smiled mysteriously in the streets, and threw bold glances at their oppressors; while far and wide there was a subdued and silent agitation, as if the slightest signal would rouse the whole land from its sluggish despondency. Aware of their danger, the rulers resolved to avert it by an imposing display of strength, and perhaps to confirm their despotism by yet harsher measures. One afternoon in April, 1689, Sir Edmund Andros and his favorite councillors, being warm with wine, assembled the red-coats of the Governor's Guard, and made their appearance in the streets of Boston. The sun was near setting when the march commenced.
The roll of the drum at that unquiet crisis seemed to go through the streets, less as the martial music of the soldiers, than as a muster-call to the inhabitants themselves. A multitude, by various avenues, assembled in King Street, which was destined to be the scene, nearly a century afterwards, of another encounter between the troops of Britain, and a people struggling against her tyranny. Though more than sixty years had elapsed since the pilgrims came, this crowd of their descendants still showed the strong and sombre features of their character perhaps more strikingly in such a stern emergency than on happier occasions. There were the sober garb, the general severity of mien, the gloomy but undismayed expression, the scriptural forms of speech, and the confidence in Heaven's blessing on a righteous cause, which would have marked a band of the original Puritans, when threatened by some peril of the wilderness. Indeed, it was not yet time for the old spirit to be extinct; since there were men in the street that day who had worshipped there beneath the trees, before a house was reared to the God for whom they had become exiles. Old soldiers of the Parliament were here, too, smiling grimly at the thought that their aged arms might strike another blow against the house of Stuart. Here, also, were the veterans of King Philip's war, who had burned villages and slaughtered young and old, with pious fierceness, while the godly souls throughout the land were helping them with prayer. Several ministers were scattered among the crowd, which, unlike all other mobs, regarded them with such reverence, as if there were sanctity in their very garments. These holy men exerted their influence to quiet the people, but not to disperse them. Meantime, the purpose of the Governor, in disturbing the peace of the town at a period when the slightest commotion might throw the country into a ferment, was almost the universal subject of inquiry, and variously explained.
"Satan will strike his master-stroke presently," cried some, "because he knoweth that his time is short. All our godly pastors are to be dragged to prison! We shall see them at a Smithfield fire in King Street!"
Hereupon the people of each parish gathered closer round their minister, who looked calmly upwards and assumed a more apostolic dignity, as well befitted a candidate for the highest honor of his profession, the crown of martyrdom. It was actually fancied, at that period, that New England might have a John Rogers of her own to take the place of that worthy in the Primer.
"The Pope of Rome has given orders for a new St. Bartholomew!" cried others. "We are to be massacred, man and male child!"
Neither was this rumor wholly discredited, although the wiser class believed the Governor's object somewhat less atrocious. His predecessor under the old charter, Bradstreet, a venerable companion of the first settlers, was known to be in town. There were grounds for conjecturing, that Sir Edmund Andros intended at once to strike terror by a parade of military force, and to confound the opposite faction by possessing himself of their chief.
"Stand firm for the old charter Governor!" shouted the crowd, seizing upon the idea. "The good old Governor Bradstreet!"
While this cry was at the loudest, the people were surprised by the well-known figure of Governor Bradstreet himself, a patriarch of nearly ninety, who appeared on the elevated steps of a door, and, with characteristic mildness, besought them to submit to the constituted authorities.
"My children," concluded this venerable person, "do nothing rashly. Cry not aloud, but pray for the welfare of New England, and expect patiently what the Lord will do in this matter!"
The event was soon to be decided. All this time, the roll of the drum had been approaching through Cornhill, louder and deeper, till with reverberations from house to house, and the regular tramp of martial footsteps, it burst into the street. A double rank of soldiers made their appearance, occupying the whole breadth of the passage, with shouldered matchlocks, and matches burning, so as to present a row of fires in the dusk. Their steady march was like the progress of a machine, that would roll irresistibly over everything in its way. Next, moving slowly, with a confused clatter of hoofs on the pavement, rode a party of mounted gentlemen, the central figure being Sir Edmund Andros, elderly, but erect and soldier-like. Those around him were his favorite councillors, and the bitterest foes of New England. At his right hand rode Edward Randolph, our arch-enemy, that "blasted wretch," as Cotton Mather calls him, who achieved the downfall of our ancient government, and was followed with a sensible curse, through life and to his grave. On the other side was Bullivant, scattering jests and mockery as he rode along. Dudley came behind, with a downcast look, dreading, as well he might, to meet the indignant gaze of the people, who beheld him, their only countryman by birth, among the oppressors of his native land. The captain of a frigate in the harbor, and two or three civil officers under the Crown, were also there. But the figure which most attracted the public eye, and stirred up the deepest feeling, was the Episcopal clergyman of King's Chapel, riding haughtily among the magistrates in his priestly vestments, the fitting representatives of prelacy and persecution, the union of church and state, and all those abominations which had driven the Puritans to the wilderness. Another guard of soldiers, in double rank, brought up the rear.
The whole scene was a picture of the condition of New England, and its moral, the deformity of any government that does not grow out of the nature of things and the character of the people. On one side the religious multitude, with their sad visages and dark attire, and on the other, the group of despotic rulers, with the high churchman in the midst, and here and there a crucifix at their bosoms, all magnificently clad, flushed with wine, proud of unjust authority, and scoffing at the universal groan. And the mercenary soldiers, waiting but the word to deluge the street with blood, showed the only means by which obedience could be secured.
"O Lord of Hosts," cried a voice among the crowd, "provide a Champion for thy people!"
This ejaculation was loudly uttered, and served as a herald's cry, to introduce a remarkable personage. The crowd had rolled back, and were now huddled together nearly at the extremity of the street, while the soldiers had advanced no more than a third of its length. The intervening space was empty--a paved solitude, between lofty edifices, which threw almost a twilight shadow over it. Suddenly, there was seen the figure of an ancient man, who seemed to have emerged from among the people, and was walking by himself along the centre of the street, to confront the armed band. He wore the old Puritan dress, a dark cloak and a steeplecrowned hat, in the fashion of at least fifty years before, with a heavy sword upon his thigh, but a staff in his hand to assist the tremulous gait of age.
When at some distance from the multitude, the old man turned slowly round, displaying a face of antique majesty, rendered doubly venerable by the hoary beard that descended on his breast. He made a gesture at once of encouragement and warning, then turned again, and resumed his way.
"Who is this gray patriarch?" asked the young men of their sires.
"Who is this venerable brother?" asked the old men among themselves.
But none could make reply. The fathers of the people, those of fourscore years and upwards, were disturbed, deeming it strange that they should forget one of such evident authority, whom they must have known in their early days, the associate of Winthrop, and all the old councillors, giving laws, and making prayers, and leading them against the savage. The elderly men ought to have remembered him, too, with locks as gray in their youth, as their own were now. And the young! How could he have passed so utterly from their memories--that hoary sire, the relic of longdeparted times, whose awful benediction had surely been bestowed on their uncovered heads, in childhood?
"Whence did he come? What is his purpose? Who can this old man be?" whispered the wondering crowd.
Meanwhile, the venerable stranger, staff in hand, was pursuing his solitary walk along the centre of the street. As he drew near the advancing soldiers, and as the roll of their drum came full upon his ears, the old man raised himself to a loftier mien, while the decrepitude of age seemed to fall from his shoulders, leaving him in gray but unbroken dignity. Now, he marched onward with a warrior's step, keeping time to the military music. Thus the aged form advanced on one side, and the whole parade of soldiers and magistrates on the other, till, when scarcely twenty yards remained between, the old man grasped his staff by the middle, and held it before him like a leader's truncheon.
"Stand!" cried he.
The eye, the face, and attitude of command; the solemn, yet warlike peal of that voice, fit either to rule a host in the battle-field or be raised to God in prayer, were irresistible. At the old man's word and outstretched arm, the roll of the drum was hushed at once, and the advancing line stood still. A tremulous enthusiasm seized upon the multitude. That stately form, combining the leader and the saint, so gray, so dimly seen, in such an ancient garb, could only belong to some old champion of the righteous cause, whom the oppressor's drum had summoned from his grave. They raised a shout of awe and exultation, and looked for the deliverance of New England.
The Governor, and the gentlemen of his party, perceiving themselves brought to an unexpected stand, rode hastily forward, as if they would have pressed their snorting and affrighted horses right against the hoary apparition. He, however, blenched not a step, but glancing his severe eye round the group, which half encompassed him, at last bent it sternly on Sir Edmund Andros. One would have thought that the dark old man was chief ruler there, and that the Governor and Council, with soldiers at their back, representing the whole power and authority of the Crown, had no alternative but obedience.
"What does this old fellow here?" cried Edward Randolph, fiercely. "On, Sir Edmund! Bid the soldiers forward, and give the dotard the same choice that you give all his countrymen--to stand aside or be trampled on!"
"Nay, nay, let us show respect to the good grandsire," said Bullivant, laughing. "See you not, he is some old round-headed dignitary, who hath lain asleep these thirty years, and knows nothing o' the change of times? Doubtless, he thinks to put us down with a proclamation in Old Noll's name!"
"Are you mad, old man?" demanded Sir Edmund Andros, in loud and harsh tones. "How dare you stay the march of King James's Governor?"
"I have stayed the march of a King himself, ere now," replied the gray figure, with stern composure. "I am here, Sir Governor, because the cry of an oppressed people hath disturbed me in my secret place; and beseeching this favor earnestly of the Lord, it was vouchsafed me to appear once again on earth, in the good old cause of his saints. And what speak ye of James? There is no longer a Popish tyrant on the throne of England, and by to-morrow noon, his name shall be a byword in this very street, where ye would make it a word of terror. Back, thou wast a Governor, back! With this night thy power is ended--to-morrow, the prison!--back, lest I foretell the scaffold!"
The people had been drawing nearer and nearer, and drinking in the words of their champion, who spoke in accents long disused, like one unaccustomed to converse, except with the dead of many years ago. But his voice stirred their souls. They confronted the soldiers, not wholly without arms, and ready to convert the very stones of the street into deadly weapons. Sir Edmund Andros looked at the old man; then he cast his hard and cruel eye over the multitude, and beheld them burning with that lurid wrath, so difficult to kindle or to quench; and again he fixed his gaze on the aged form, which stood obscurely in an open space, where neither friend nor foe had thrust himself. What were his thoughts, he uttered no word which might discover. But whether the oppressor were overawed by the Gray Champion's look, or perceived his peril in the threatening attitude of the people, it is certain that he gave back, and ordered his soldiers to commence a slow and guarded retreat. Before another sunset, the Governor, and all that rode so proudly with him, were prisoners, and long ere it was known that James had abdicated, King William was proclaimed throughout New England.
But where was the Gray Champion? Some reported that, when the troops had gone from King Street, and the people were thronging tumultuously in their rear, Bradstreet, the aged Governor, was seen to embrace a form more aged than his own. Others soberly affirmed, that while they marvelled at the venerable grandeur of his aspect, the old man had faded from their eyes, melting slowly into the hues of twilight, till, where he stood, there was an empty space. But all agreed that the hoary shape was gone. The men of that generation watched for his reappearance, in sunshine and in twilight, but never saw him more, nor knew when his funeral passed, nor where his gravestone was.
And who was the Gray Champion? Perhaps his name might be found in the records of that stern Court of Justice, which passed a sentence, too mighty for the age, but glorious in all after-times, for its humbling lesson to the monarch and its high example to the subject. I have heard, that whenever the descendants of the Puritans are to show the spirit of their sires, the old man appears again. When eighty years had passed, he walked once more in King Street. Five years later, in the twilight of an April morning, he stood on the green, beside the meeting-house, at Lexington, where now the obelisk of granite, with a slab of slate inlaid, commemorates the first fallen of the Revolutions. And when our fathers were toiling at the breastwork on Bunker's Hill, all through that night the old warrior walked his rounds. Long, long may it be, ere he comes again! His hour is one of darkness, and adversity, and peril. But should domestic tyranny oppress us, or the invader's step pollute our soil, still may the Gray Champion come, for he is the type of New England's hereditary spirit; and his shadowy march, on the eve of danger, must ever be the pledge, that New England's sons will vindicate their ancestry.
Quote from: Bobson on February 28, 2010, 11:07:31 AM
.but so many who are Christians are not able to speak of these things because other people will tell them it is the devil, or that they are crazy.
Not sure what religious back ground you come from but in my experience there is no lack of christian stories, the problem is that a story someone tells cannot be proven or disproven and there is a LARGE abundance of BS with people telling stories trying to say this is proof that we should believe a certain religious way and to draw attention to the one telling it.
Loved the story Bobson , Thanks for sharing it ,
I do not doubt that the Spiritual realm would be impossible for the carnal mind to wrap around it .. they are enmities for a reason
as God purposes it to be so..
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
the Spiritual is from above and the carnal is from below
thus the head and heel brusing / wound / blow
the study of the the two words can mean and does mean in some instances
the head is the rule or authority and blow to the head is what the spiritual realm does to our way of thinking /carnal thoughts
and the feet are the way we think and speak of the gospel and good news of Jesus Christ , thus we have the foot washing of the saints towards one another
cleansing the ''feet as an act of humility '' and caring showing love , servitude
and coming to the same unity of faith in Jesus Christ whom made this example known .. this to me is what we do discussing these things of faith that the cannal mind will strike blows at , like brusing the feet with hardend hearts as rocks of offense and dust the flesh scattering etc .. attached to the feet / gospel and teaching of peace in Jesus , only the Spirit of prophecy / Jesus Christ testimony , can teach these things to us
as Mary sat at Jesus feet / a humble and low place to learn the Truth
being born of the Spirit we hear what the Spirit is saying by faith and making us complete / whole . till we are told to come up ''higher ''
Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
feet Strong's G4228 - pous 1) a foot, both of men or beast
a) often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquished
b) of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet
just one example of the feet ...
and the head , when Christ becomes the Head / all authority
we no longer struggle trying to disern whats is of God and what is of the devil
Gods Spirit rests within you and Christs as well and shows us whats is right in Gods will thus the peace
the spirit of discernment
the carnal mind cannot even ''touch it ''
God bless all who hear what the Spirit is saying :icon_flower:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 28, 2010, 04:18:36 PM
Quote from: Bobson on February 28, 2010, 11:07:31 AM
.but so many who are Christians are not able to speak of these things because other people will tell them it is the devil, or that they are crazy.
Not sure what religious back ground you come from but in my experience there is no lack of christian stories, the problem is that a story someone tells cannot be proven or disproven and there is a LARGE abundance of BS with people telling stories trying to say this is proof that we should believe a certain religious way and to draw attention to the one telling it.
I do understand what you are saying Paul
this come to mind , the ellen white story making a certain ''sect''
drawn away from Christ and on to their own understanding
it is a form of godliness but denies the power Jesus Christ
If its not pointing to Him in every way , Giving Him the glory , these things become vain and fruitless paths ..
Just an opinion / thought on the matter .
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 28, 2010, 04:18:36 PM
Not sure what religious back ground you come from but in my experience there is no lack of christian stories, the problem is that a story someone tells cannot be proven or disproven and there is a LARGE abundance of BS with people telling stories trying to say this is proof that we should believe a certain religious way and to draw attention to the one telling it.
There is scientic research. Of course "you" can accept or reject the results.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 28, 2010, 05:07:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 28, 2010, 04:18:36 PM
Not sure what religious back ground you come from but in my experience there is no lack of christian stories, the problem is that a story someone tells cannot be proven or disproven and there is a LARGE abundance of BS with people telling stories trying to say this is proof that we should believe a certain religious way and to draw attention to the one telling it.
There is scientic research. Of course "you" can accept or reject the results.
Oh, so what has this proven in the absolute sense?
Quote from: rosered on February 28, 2010, 04:28:19 PM
this come to mind , the ellen white story making a certain "sect" drawn away from Christ and on to their own understanding
it is a form of godliness but denies the power Jesus Christ
If its not pointing to Him in every way , Giving Him the glory , these things become vain and fruitless paths ..
If I understand what you wrote Rose I don't agree.
NDEs that reject Jesus are wrong.
But what about NDEs that don't mention Jesus?
Not mentioning Jesus is not meaning it rejects Jesus.
Most NDEs are focussed on one event. Accident. Baby to be born. A tiny insight of what happens after death.
Many visions in the Bible don't mention Jesus either. That doesn't mean they reject Jesus.
The way I see it; after life is a puzzle with a billion pieces. Most NDEs focus on just one part of the puzzle. Or no puzzle piece at all.
NDEs only prove what they show. (if they are real Paul :winkgrin:) They don't disprove/reject all the other pieces of the puzzle.
Most NDEs
I have read are not directly religous but certainly don't oppose UR and other things in the Bible.
(but you already know that from my emails Rose :laughing7:)
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 28, 2010, 05:18:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 28, 2010, 05:07:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 28, 2010, 04:18:36 PM
Not sure what religious back ground you come from but in my experience there is no lack of christian stories, the problem is that a story someone tells cannot be proven or disproven and there is a LARGE abundance of BS with people telling stories trying to say this is proof that we should believe a certain religious way and to draw attention to the one telling it.
There is scientic research. Of course "you" can accept or reject the results.
Oh, so what has this proven in the absolute sense?
Nothing Paul. Read the stories and bits of proof. Then decide if you want to believe it. Just as with the Bible. I know you don't have an open mind for it so won't bother you with url :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 28, 2010, 05:30:21 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 28, 2010, 05:18:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 28, 2010, 05:07:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 28, 2010, 04:18:36 PM
Not sure what religious back ground you come from but in my experience there is no lack of christian stories, the problem is that a story someone tells cannot be proven or disproven and there is a LARGE abundance of BS with people telling stories trying to say this is proof that we should believe a certain religious way and to draw attention to the one telling it.
There is scientic research. Of course "you" can accept or reject the results.
Oh, so what has this proven in the absolute sense?
Nothing Paul. Read the stories and bits of proof. Then decide if you want to believe it. Just as with the Bible. I know you don't have an open mind for it so won't bother you with url :winkgrin:
I am not disputing what you might think.
The point I was making is that there is no lack of story telling when Bobson seems to suggest people are hesitant to tell their story. Maybe some are, depending upon who they are around a lot. But I have heard an abundance of stories and the vast majority of them are patterned to persuade others to a certain religious point of view. Most often the story teller wants recognition and attention or that certainly is what they receive from it.
My path in churches included a lot of envy and doubt about my own faith and beliefs from listing to story after story of how people saw this and got that and their dramatic telling of the story made me wonder what was wrong with me that I had not saw that or experienced something similar. Then combine that with supposed NDE's of people who then are warning everyone one they can that what they experienced was eternal hell and the doom of the unbeliever.
So my point is what exactly is someone actually going to detemine from the research in that regaurd?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 28, 2010, 05:20:17 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 28, 2010, 04:28:19 PM
this come to mind , the ellen white story making a certain "sect" drawn away from Christ and on to their own understanding
it is a form of godliness but denies the power Jesus Christ
If its not pointing to Him in every way , Giving Him the glory , these things become vain and fruitless paths ..
If I understand what you wrote Rose I don't agree.
NDEs that reject Jesus are wrong.
But what about NDEs that don't mention Jesus?
Not mentioning Jesus is not meaning it rejects Jesus.
Most NDEs are focussed on one event. Accident. Baby to be born. A tiny insight of what happens after death.
Many visions in the Bible don't mention Jesus either. That doesn't mean they reject Jesus.
The way I see it; after life is a puzzle with a billion pieces. Most NDEs focus on just one part of the puzzle. Or no puzzle piece at all.
NDEs only prove what they show. (if they are real Paul :winkgrin:) They don't disprove/reject all the other pieces of the puzzle.
Most NDEs I have read are not directly religous but certainly don't oppose UR and other things in the Bible.
(but you already know that from my emails Rose :laughing7:)
LOL ... Think you may have misunderstood me Tony
not the clearest person to understand
God knows !
What "religion" does in the broad sense is confuse most seekers of Light / Jesus ..
they do take a small piece of the puzzle and "build on that only " which
to me leaves alot of spiritual growth out the window of opportunity
to grow and learn of Him
Jesus is the name given bro , BUT Jesus is everything everywhere
though all times ..
the Rock , the Light , the power of God and Knowledge of Him
to get hung up in the name only
is where many error
the reason to me is this
Jesus told us HIMSELF that many will come in His name only and do works make great claims etc , but Jesus denies even knowing them
Its about faith and hearing what the Spirit /CHRIST /GOD is saying that makes all the differnece to me
just an opinion ...
does the name Jesus Christ hold all the power ?
or is it HIM / LOVE that make the universal understanding work to every creature in and under heaven ?
to me these things are what DO cause some divisions and break downs in conversations ... :icon_flower:
to be more clear Tony .. ha!
Jhn 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you.
how do we ''kill Christ / the annointing of the Father '' ?
Jhn 3:8 The wind blows where it listeth, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
so when does Jesus/ salvation come and go in anyone ?
the Lord does this , we cannot say who has and has not this Spirit in them but by how they love one another
when they hate divide and strike in the name of God you sure wonder eh?
when the WORD OF GOD / SEED of Christ / annoined of the Father
when born from above is not corruptible but pure and holy
this comes by faith hearing the Spirit of God
as Jesus told Nicodemis in John 3 above verse
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides/ remains for ever.
than we grow learn and be taught what is Spirit and Truth
so we all have to be careful not to speak against God and His work in that sense :mblush:
some shame is bound to happen along the way
but that can be a good thing
because we are chastened of the Lord , we learn a better way to treat
one another
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 28, 2010, 05:43:48 PM
I am not disputing what you might think.
That would be impossible because I have no strong opinion yet. Just a open mind.
QuoteThe point I was making is that there is no lack of story telling when Bobson seems to suggest people are hesitant to tell their story.
Well if I would tell my NDE (if I had one) at office they would do a drug test :laughing7:
What I'm trying to say that I think people often don't dare to speak about it. They know they would have made fun at. Just as they would do before their experience.
QuoteMaybe some are, depending upon who they are around a lot. But I have heard an abundance of stories and the vast majority of them are patterned to persuade others to a certain religious point of view. Most often the story teller wants recognition and attention or that certainly is what they receive from it.
True. I'm sure remember me writting soemthing similar in various threads.
QuoteMy path in churches included a lot of envy and doubt about my own faith and beliefs from listing to story after story of how people saw this and got that and their dramatic telling of the story made me wonder what was wrong with me that I had not saw that or experienced something similar. Then combine that with supposed NDE's of people who then are warning everyone one they can that what they experienced was eternal hell and the doom of the unbeliever.
One of the main problems is that people always try to label things and put it in boxes.
But what if someone come with a NDE that doesn't fit in regular boxes. Atheist would put it in the loony bin box.
And religious people grab their satanic deception stamp. People often get reject afterwards.
In this thread people told about their NDEs or about their pets. All happy answers. Now imagine the answers on CARM...
QuoteSo my point is what exactly is someone actually going to detemine from the research in that regaurd?
NDEs of heaven can't be verified directly. Only by numbers. There seem to 1000s of recorded NDEs of the ages with similar wording. Both religion and secular. That's a little bit of proof. But ofcourse you can say they are lies or fantasies by someone looking to sell books.
There are also NDEs with 'proof' like people that can give detailed reports of when they were under surgery.
Or teh woman that floated outside the hospital and saw a shoe on the ledge. The doctor found the shoe. Stories of that type. For those involved that would certainly be strong proof. But we haven't experienced it first hand so perhaps teh doctors lied. Or there was no suregery and doctors at all. The complete story is a fantasy.
But that's so for so many things in life. I have to believe there was a earhquake in Haiti while I never was in the country.
Thank you Bobson I really liked the story
This part stood out for me.
(I heard the voice of Christ vibrate through me as he said, "No, this heart condition of yours is not a cross from me for you to bear. This heart condition is a challenge to help you grow and stay compassionate. Now, go back.")
It seems to me many of our beloved losses teach us to love.
I know for me since I lost my sweet dog Danny my heart has more love compassion and love for others.
I have changed a lot in this year Danny has been gone from me.
I believe God gives us challenges along the way to help us develop?
rosered I love your dogs name Axel our experiences were so similar. :HeartThrob:
I wanted to mention Jesus is the only way it is all about him can't be no other way to get to God.
God is God of all people he owns the world and everything in it.
PAUL: Then combine that with supposed NDE's of people who then are warning everyone one they can that what they experienced was eternal hell and the doom of the unbeliever.
ANS: Maybe I'm starting to understand why it seemed slightly "hostile" to the NDE thing here...I see people referring to "eternal damnation" and brimstone NDEs, and I didn't really understand it at first...maybe I do now. I don't know if I have ever seen a NDE like that, maybe some of you are just looking in different places than I am. I don't want to see them either, I don't want to put garbage like that into myself.
I've yet to see an NDE that threatened eternal damnation...but maybe I'm just looking in different places. What I have seen are a few NDEs where the alleged experiencer is PUSHING damnation...but when I look at the NDE there isn't anything in it that supports what they are saying. People start to proselytize about things...just like Howard Storm...one of the most profound NDEs on record. Now, he keeps talking about "the exquisite torments of hell" and yet in his NDE there is nothing that even resembles Christian "hell" and absolutely nothing about exquisite torments, nor anything about "eternal". I don't know why he does this...and I can't understand how he seems to be unaware of it himself. In Storm's NDE, those angels of light told him "go back, make all the mistakes you want, mistakes are how you learn." I don't hear eternal damnation threatened there...yet for some reason, he prefers to talk about the "exquisite torments of hell"...it doesn't even come close to lining up. Maybe he thinks "hell" is a pre-requisite for being a Christian, I don't know. I'm sure if he ever went on a Christian TV show and said what I just wrote that those angels of light told him, they would say he's possessed by the devil and kick him out.
If an NDE doesn't contain some kind of verifiable information, as Whitewings puts it, "medical" NDEs...I don't pay much attention to it. Whitewings mentioned the "red shoe" and things like that...there is also the case of the "false teeth", blind people seeing, etc. Those are the ones that speak loudest, and certainly derail the skeptics.
I suppose it's somewhat different for me because it has happened to me and it made perfect sense, and was logical and orderly. I also think some fundamentalist Christians and Catholics really are desperate enough to lie about it...not to mention "crazies" like Bill Wiese, whose mind goes berserk with something (I don't even know what to call it) that doesn't even have Biblical support and he continues to promote it anyway.
Why not just stay away from people who make these bizarre claims of eternal damnation? At the best, if "thoughts become reality" and I'm pretty well convinced that they do, then all that is happening is these people who are obsessed with "hell" are making a "hell" for themselves...so let them...they'll eventually find out...although they might spend a l-o-n-g time in that self-created "hell" where they are surrounded by others who think they're there forever...until something causes them to want something different...and then their "eternal hell" will disappear. If people would just understand that in a world of "thought", as you "think" so you "are", they would understand things better and avoid their "hell"...no one is there to inflict "hell" on anyone...they're only doing it to themselves.
Be careful what you put into yourself, into your mind...because you just might get it. Just live, be nice, and expect good things when you die...and you'll probably get it.
Whitewings, what would you, or anyone else respond to a Catholic priest who says "I believe in hell because it's logical. If there is a place where God is then there has to be someplace where he is not. Hell is real but God doesn't want anyone to go there."
Then that same Catholic priest, when the person he was talking to would not accept his and peppered him with questions and asked him why he should like such a vile God that gives no assurance of anything, questions the person as to the possibility that they are possessed by demons, and that's why he won't love this God?
What would you or anyone else reply to a priest like this?
I know it's a bit off subject, but I'm interested to see what anyone would say to this. I hope someone will reply, this has actually happened to someone who I know.
In the very unlikely event.... :winkgrin:
QuoteIf there is a place where God is then there has to be someplace where he is not.
God is in is whole creation. If something exists God is there.
QuoteHell is real but God doesn't want anyone to go there."
I would say that I agree but would ask if his view on hell is that of the current or previous pope. The current one believes in flames. The other one in "cast in utter darkness" (like the NDEs)
I would also ask if why he thinks people can go against Gods will.
QuoteThen that same Catholic priest, when the person he was talking to would not accept his and peppered him with questions and asked him why he should like such a vile God that gives no assurance of anything, questions the person as to the possibility that they are possessed by demons, and that's why he won't love this God?
That's about opionions. And opionons are always right. They will wriggle and squirm with weird answers. And if they are completely stuck they will say the ways of God are not understood by mankind.
To go off-topic even more. Ther surely are hardcore morons. But many aren't I think. I'm very new to religion and I took some noobie course. A preacher told discussed a few things each lesson. The weird think is it was a reformed church. But he used a Catholic Bible and liked Maccabees. That's apocryptica and that only used by RCC I think. Basicly every thing he told was about love, helping others and stuff. Two persons also present were studying theology. None of them believed in torture.
The preacher was very seriously looking into UR. Actually already was UR. Nasty as I am I asked why he always skipped hell because that's not a unimportant factor. The last lesson was about Revelation. No hell in there either.... :laughing7:
I hadn't posted in this thread before. I was asked by PM some specific questions about what I thought about NDEs, as well as a "side note" of maybe Jesus isn't the only way to the Father, because there's a scripture about he who loves knows God...also, that NDEs show perhaps a "learning process/salting with fire" for everyone...
I thought I'd include some of my responses as fits this thread, compiled from several PMs...
I hope my thoughts are helpful in some way...I'm not swearing I'm 100% right on everything, we're all learning...willingly or not :bigGrin:.
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A lot to consider.
I think I believe in them, I'm just not sure I believe all of them that are reported. This is a hard part of it, because I certainly don't know everything about the scriptures, there are multiple translations and thousands/millions of interpretations - however, I don't believe anything that's reported in a NDE that is "clearly" (according to my understanding) against what the scriptures say.
An example is a couple things I read in NDEs that come to mind. One, that the person was told to go make all the mistakes they want, like it was no big deal - when the scriptures teach us about obedience,
doing the will of Father, etc. Another, is where Ken Vincent reported "we don't judge here"...the scriptures clearly state there will be a judment, GWT judgment, God is the Judge, etc.
So that's a couple of thoughts on it - when I hear things I (at least mentally) sort of check it against my understanding of the scriptures - still plenty of room to learn and grow in all areas, my knowledge of NDEs AND the scriptures, so ongoing process. ADDED - Some NDEs could even help me understand the scriptures better - but always this; "...they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Acts 17:11
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[As far as perhaps] "Jesus is not the only way"....
First of all, He clearly says He is - that "no man comes to the Father but by Me"...also, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"...and others
Secondly, I believe there's a level of love that only comes through the Holy Spirit's indwelling and proceeding out of a person, a kind of love we're not capable of having in and of ourselves...so if anyone has that kind of love, then it's EVIDENCE they're saved...anyone who can really love with the love of Christ is of Christ. I only personally have bits and pieces of that, that shows itself at times despite me. In my own flesh, I'm not a very loving person. My tendency is to be critical, judgmental, have anger flare-ups, etc....very fleshly...it's only by God's Spirit working through me that I can have any real love at all. So no, I don't believe just because someone professes some sort of love, or appears to have some sort of ability to love, that automatically means they're a born again from above child of God. I believe they/we must have gone through Jesus the Savior, as the Spirit draws each one, then He places that love (agape, perhaps?---unconditional - that I can't have without His help) in our heart. It's when I want to be angry and unforgiving, that HE works in and through me, helping me to forgive and love even if I don't want to or am inclined to do so in myself - when I may want revenge, He convicts me of those sinful attitudes and empowers me to handle it some other way. It's His work in us.
That's how I'd describe right now.
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(Q of what context do I mean regarding the "he who loves knows God"/not just pulling the one scripture out to stand on its own, when so many other scriptures address the same topic - attempting to reconcile many scriptures)
The larger context is HUGE and many scriptures, 2 of which I mentioned...
No man comes to the Father but [I misquoted - it's actually] THROUGH ME, and the other one, "I am the Way"...
The context also involves that God is love, as you mention. Yes He is...but that isn't some gooey Romance Novel or new age feeling...it carries many aspects to it...judgment, corrective discipline, healing, spanking, renewing...ultimately working out to mankind's good and the end result of LOVE....so I'm not ignoring that,, again, there's just a huge context - MANY scriptures and scriptural principles that must be considered...
For example, if I take the stance of isolating that one scripture - He who loves knows God - and try to make it mean "if someone is kind to their neighbor, then they're born from above", aka, a born again believer - no matter what else- if they don't even believe in God, believe that Mohammed is the savior and Jesus was just a good guy - but they "love" - it ignores too many other scriptures taken in context. I'd have to ignore the 2 scriptures quoted above, along with a list of many others that say Jesus is THE WAY. Jesus told Nicodemus not to marvel that He said one must be be born from above (spiritually re-born). And that's what many are trying to do today, do away with the cross, saying "if only we can love, everything's OK". But love encompasses much...including the cross, taking up our cross daily and following Him...by grace are we saved through faith...call upon the NAME of the Lord and you shall be saved - how can they call on Him in whom they have not heard, etc.
I have seen folks go the way of "is the cross really necessary?" - "it's about Father's love/Jesus is incidental", the Bible is not accurate, not true, etc. I know 2 that were on these boards that are now professing agnostics/atheists.
The way of the cross leads home.
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[The saved in this lifetime are salted IN THIS LIFETIME - they are not hurt of the second death. There is a company of believers that will rule and reign with Christ, serving as kings and priests - I believe, bringing the others of the nations in. So as far as "steps"/progression in NDEs, there would be a different process/situation of correction for those not yet saved - whether it looked like the NDE experiences or not, not sure...probably not like EVERY ONE of them that's reported.]
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IMO, that's what can be frightening about all these NDE reports...anyone can say anything they want. AND, there is a matter of delusion that satan would very much like people to go after and AWAY from the Written Word. I AM NOT saying none of it is true...but that's why I said I personally want to attempt to match up what I hear with what I read and "hear" from God through His Word and Spirit about it. You know, there's also scripture that says those saved in this lifetime, the ecclesia, will rule and reign with Christ as kings and priests - they will not be hurt of the second death...so I believe a case could be made scripturally that not ALL are going through a corrective process...only those whose names are not (yet) written in the Book of Life...so let's say in NDEs there is that process, "steps"...I don't know if that's true as pictured in NDEs or not...but if so, I don't believe it would be for the ecclesia that are already redeemed, "...Savior of all men, especially of those believing" (I Tim. 4:10)
So, no, by saying that having a love that only comes through a relationship with Jesus is EVIDENCE that one knows God, I don't believe that's ignoring the scripture you referenced...it's taking in context of OTHER scriptures, trying to reconcile many scriptures with each other rather than pulling out one to stand on its own - apart from all the others that also say Jesus is the Way.
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
JABCAT: I think I believe in them, I'm just not sure I believe all of them that are reported.
ANS: I agree. Thank you for your comments Jabcat, they were good...we're all learning here, I agree.
JABCAT:One, that the person was told to go make all the mistakes they want, like it was no big deal - when the scriptures teach us about obedience, doing the will of Father, etc. Another, is where Ken Vincent reported "we don't judge here"...the scriptures clearly state there will be a judment, GWT judgment, God is the Judge, etc.
ANS: Could be nothing more than the people who wrote those scriptures (and it was people who wrote them) trying to express their understanding of "judgement"...it doesn't necessarily mean that what is written is absolutely 100% the way it's going to be. I happen to struggle with the concept of "punishment"...I think punishment is a human concept that people understand...we do it all the time...and I also think that when a person actually WANTS someone else to get the "punishment" that it may be a sign that THEY are the ones who really need the punishment...because they are actually DESIRING someone to "get justice" instead of trying to forgive and not wishing for any "justice" for anyone.
Put your belief to the test and try and tell the mother or dad of a person who has committed suicide is now being temporarily "punished" and see what happens...do this instead of telling that mother and dad that their child is safe in the arms of Love/God...and see what happens...see if that mother and dad will "like" Jesus Christ and want to know Him. As far as I'm concerned, people's beliefs should be able to stand up to the acid test in this world, and when the acid test results in ANOTHER suicide or death, there might be something wrong with the belief...not the person.
While I don't mean to underestimate the Bible, I also don't accept that everything written in it is inerrant and infallible either. I also don't think God is a person who is sitting on a throne....I also struggle with why Jesus Christ would find it so necessary to receive a pat on the back and a bent knee for what he did...that sounds like a human concept, not necessarily the concept of a God. Further, I have never seen an NDE where anyone claims a God is judging them...they are judging themselves...and let's face it when you become the other people you will definitely understand as plain as day, the damage you have caused...there will be no denying it...if it wasn't this way, how could anyone's verdict be anything other than "not guilty"?
Also, about the "mistakes"...well, I can think of something that I've learned from virtually every mistake I've made, can't you? If so, then maybe those mistakes have contributed to your afterlife more than you think. I've also heard the following from the NDE of a person who was clinically brain dead, with no heartbeat, for almost an hour: "you were sent away to school and we expected that you would spill your milk, but it's the manner in which you clean it up that gives us cause for pride." Interestingly, it is written that God IS love...and it's also written that love keeps no record of wrong doing...where does it say in Paul's description "love will only punish you severely for awhile." It's just my opinion, but I tend to think that many Christians have a somewhat poor understanding of "punishment" and "judgement". I probably should also make it clear that I am not a moral relativist...I'm certainly not a new ager. I do believe there is a standard, and that standard is LOVE...love for God, love for others...and it's pretty hard for me to love a God who would inflict awful punishment on anyone in my family. Dr. George Ritchie...a Christian at the time of his NDE...and who is a psychiatrist...wrote this: "He (Jesus Christ) asked me if I had learned to love my fellow man the same way that he unconditionally loved and accepted me. We have a God that is in the LOVING business, not the JUDGING business."
JABCAT: First of all, He clearly says He is - that "no man comes to the Father but by Me"...also, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"...and others"
ANS: That's assuming that He actually said that...it's possible, it's just that I am not entirely sure that Jesus Christ said every single word that it is written that he said...he could have, I'm just not sure. This is a line that fundamentalists use to insist that everyone who doesn't accept Jesus is going to hell...but then what about those Indians in the Americas in 1200 AD? What about the fact that it was 1600 years before China got any missionaries? Did they all go to hell? Did they get punished? There are also many other things written that imply that love is of God, and all who love know God. To tell you the truth, I'm somewhat more suspect of the gospel of John than I am of, say, Mark. To me, Jesus Christ sounds somewhat different in John than he does in the others.
JABCAT: I believe they/we must have gone through Jesus the Savior, as the Spirit draws each one, then He places that love (agape, perhaps?---unconditional - that I can't have without His help) in our heart.
ANS:Perhaps, but most of the world has not "chosen" Jesus Christ...yet it seems to me that the vast majority understand at least some concept of love, to varying degrees. And I don't think the afterlife, Heaven, or whatever you want to call it, is an existence where things plateau and become stagnant...I think that when people leave this physical world they will continue to develop their understanding of love and God...and that the two are equal.
JABCAT: The context also involves that God is love, as you mention. Yes He is...but that isn't some gooey Romance Novel or new age feeling...it carries many aspects to it...judgment, corrective discipline, healing, spanking, renewing...ultimately working out to mankind's good and the end result of LOVE....so I'm not ignoring that,, again, there's just a huge context - MANY scriptures and scriptural principles that must be considered...
ANS: No, I don't think it is some gooey romance novel. I also don't see how perfect love can be anything except unconditional and I don't see how unconditional love needs to spank someone, when the spanking will only make them angrier...I also doubt very much that any God is going to judge anyone, I think you're going to do it yourself and it will be far worse than any judgement a God would do. I don't know about anyone else here, but I know that I'm NOT looking forward to my own life review...are you?
JABCAT: AND, there is a matter of delusion that satan would very much like people to go after and AWAY from the Written Word.
ANS: Satan? Which "satan"? The Jews' "satan" or the Christian "devil"? The two seem to be different. That would really be something wonderful wouldn't it? God casting a devil to earth, who will trick and deceive us and then God will either punish us or damn us for falling for this "devil's" tricks, including the worst "trick" of all, which is playing a HUGE trick on us in the afterlife on top of it all, by way of NDEs...a God like that doesn't make much sense to me.
Please explain. Does the existence of Satan somehow justify G-d torturing people for falling for Satan's tricks? I don't see Satan as a nearly omniscient/omnipotent being as many Christians do, giving him the power to be everywhere at once and whispering into our deepest thoughts.
1.) Angels supposedly don't have "free will" yet some angels revolted. This doesn't make any sense to me. One can't have it both ways. If Satan and the fallen angels were created to fall, it's all a put up job and they ultimately are not any more responsible for their fallen state than we are. God set the whole thing up. Then, He condemns them to eternal torment or punishment for doing what they were created to do. Calvinists don't have a problem with that logic. But, I do.
2.) God created a creature as powerful as Satan and turned him loose on the universe. Either God didn't know the risk He was taking or He did know and decided to create Satan anyway. Presumably God is still more powerful than Satan and could take him out any time He likes. Yet, He allows Satan to continue to suck His children into Hell or some kind of awful punishment to correct us. If Satan is truly an adversary, why doesn't God stop him? This is a really high stakes game.
3.) If Satan was created to be the "Adversary", God has given us an "Adversary" that is infinitely more powerful than we are, yet we are responsible for resisting him. He has eons of experience and the power to literally get inside of our heads. What chance do we have? How could we possibly be responsible to face up to such a being?
For me though rather to reject a belief in G-d (whose existence is quite evident and I cannot deny) I had to attempt to find out what G-d is really like.
I don't believe God created an adversary that is really "at war" with God. God could take out any adversary He wants any time He wants. I don't believe God put His children's eternal destiny in the hands of someone who could possibly lure them away eternally. I don't believe that God was surprised by any revolt in heaven.
Yes, Jesus spoke of a "Satan". But, the Buddha spoke of Mara, a personification of his temptations. Jesus taught in parables. Just because He spoke of Satan does not mean He necessarily believed in such a literal being.
Bottom line, I don't discount the possibility there may be a Satan-like creature though I highly, highly doubt it. If such a creature exists, I don't believe he's nearly as powerful as many Christians think he is.
I really don't speculate on the eternal fate of a creature I think probably doesn't exist. If Satan exists and G-d is omnipotent/omniscient then I hold G-d responsible for Satan's behavior because Satan is doing what he was created to do. If forced to speculate on his fate, I would go with the church fathers who thought Satan and the demons would also be "saved".
Some say angels have no free will. If we accept that, then obviously, G-d is responsible for their behaviour because they can only do what they are programmed to do. When God created Satan and the fallen angels, He foreknew what they would do. I don't know how one can justly hold a being with no free will responsible for anything.
Let's assume Satan and the fallen angels do have free will. Could they possibly be so incredibly evil without a semblance of good left in them if God didn't create them defective in the first place? And, these evil almost omnipotent and omnipresent being(s) are left to suck G-d's own children into the eternal fiery pits of hell or punishment? That's quite a price to pay for the "gift" of "free will". What type of parent would leave such a creature roaming about to destroy His children so they would have to punished severely?
Origen was one who professed universal salvation...I recently read one of the reason why...because he couldn't fathom a "devil" that was capable of causing even one to be lost because that would mean this "devil" was successful, and he reasoned that it is impossible for this "devil" to succeed in any way against God.
Jabcat, you had stated some of the qualities about yourself that you didn't care for very much...wouldn't that mean that you are learning from your mistakes? Will God punish you for the mistakes or embrace you for cleaning them up?
FOR CONSIDERATION...THE QUESTIONS THAT HOWARD STORM ASKED THOSE ANGELS OF LIGHT, AND THE ANSWERS THEY GAVE HIM:
Howard Storm was an atheist and a nasty man, to tell it in his own words. But during time spent with Jesus after dying in a hospital in Paris, France, Storm became a devout believer and upon returning to the living he became a Christian minister. He received many predictions about the world while in the afterlife, and several are detailed here.
Storm put several question to the angels when he was on the other side, in this dialogue Storm claims that Jesus Christ was present:
• "Where did the creation come from?"" There was never time, space or matter before God. God created universes which become procreative. There are countless intelligent beings in the universe.
• "Who manages all of this?" The angels are part of the organization of the physical universe. They cause events to happen and tend to the garden, so to speak.
• "What is reality?" Much that has been called supernatural is only that which we cannot fathom. The religious mysteries can direct us to the understanding of the true nature of reality.
• "What is the best religion?" The religion that brings one closest to God. There is no ONE religion.
• "What is atheism?" As it is impossible to believe in nothing, atheism does not exist.
• "Is Jesus the Son of God?" Yes.
• "Were the things written about Jesus true?" Yes, and even more so. All the books in the world could not contain all that he has done.
Predictions
In 1985, during his 'death' experience, Storm was told that God wants an end to all wars and the Two World Wars were not God's wishes, but rather He allowed the people who were bent on war to experience it. If people are so intent on killing sometimes God allows it. However, Storm was told that there will be no other World War. There could possibly be a nuclear accident but not a World War.
He was also told that the Cold War would end in a couple of years, which he did not believe as there were so many nuclear weapons floating around. But he was assured that this would happen.
Asked if the United States would be the leader in the coming change, Howard was told that the United States had been given much and much was expected in return. It must change its greedy attitude or the country will collapse economically and the result will be civil unrest. It is up to the United States to become a model of goodness and generosity to the world
At one point, Howard simply asks, "Is there life on other worlds?" The angels' responses are both visual and linguistic. In addition to their telepathic and extraordinarily clear communication, "the universe is FULL of LIFE!", they initiate what he describes as holographic tableau, a procession of intelligent life forms beginning with those that resemble the human form; then with increasing numbers, the forms are less and less humanoid in appearance, as the angels apparently impress their original point: the Universe is full of sentient life. Howard gets the point, so his next query becomes, "If there is all this life in the Universe, then why aren't we aware of it here on our own planet?"
Before I continue with their most disturbing and ultimately enlightening answer, I digress here to add a few comments made elsewhere. The angels themselves when first appearing to him as these gorgeous spheres of iridescent radiance, sense his apprehension as he is overwhelmed by their glory. Their first communication to him, is to ask him if they need to 'turn down their glow' as it were, and appear in their human form, or 'any other form that you need to be comfortable with us'! In addition, Howard later asked them if they (the angels) had ever been human, and they assured him that they had been human as well as also from among the variety of life forms that had paraded before him in the holographic procession described above. I will leave the reader to ponder on one's own the wondrous implications of these revelations!
Returning to his question regarding the apparent lack of 'proof or evidence' of other intelligent life in the universe, what he was told and shown I found quite interesting. They told him that the Universe is teaming with life- not only in the physical world but even in other dimensions. The angels told of countless worlds they 'shepherded'. When asked about the lack of 'evidence' in our world of life from other worlds, he was told that we are visited, and by a number of different groups of beings, but that they must be very careful in their contact with us, because of our immaturity, naughtiness and to put it bluntly, sinfulness. Later in conversation Howard made reference to seeing images of worlds where beings lived in perfect harmony with one another and the creation, having 'grown up' and matured spiritually to the place where innate spiritual gifts could be unfolded where collectively a world's inhabitants steered the weather patterns, enabling them to create a world of Paradise.
"I asked Jesus: Has he been to another world besides my world? He said that he had been to every world in every time and space. He said that he had brought the revelation of God to all intelligent beings. Some beings had been as stubborn as we were to accept him, and many more worlds had gladly accepted him. He said he would back to our world in good time when we were ready to accept him."
Elaborating on the response, Howard said that on the worlds where the inhabitants had been following the Christ in their hearts all along, the appearance in their form of the Messenger, then became one of welcome and recognition, as if to say, 'we have known you all along'. It was on these worlds that Howard describes people in the physical living a life experience that for us on Earth, would be Heaven: no war, no poverty, no disease; everyone living up to their own capacity for growth, wisdom and love; no one 'left behind', everyone embraced, loved and loving!
Howard makes no apology in identifying the Being who embraces him, who saves him, as Jesus the Christ. That affirmed, I must add that Howard in no way identifies that holy, loving Being with anything other than the One who has come here on behalf of EVERYONE, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. In my own experience, my meditation on Howard's journey has been profoundly healing for my own wounds at the hands of religious zealots. The Christ who reaches out to rescue the all-too-human Storm, has likewise crossed every racial, religious and yes, time and space barrier to bring us the Good News that we are not alone; God is with us, and we have brothers and sisters scattered throughout the heavens both visible and invisible!
Quote from: jabcat on March 02, 2010, 10:50:03 AM
An example is a couple things I read in NDEs that come to mind. One, that the person was told to go make all the mistakes they want, like it was no big deal - when the scriptures teach us about obedience,
For me there is a difference between disobedience and mistakes. Mistakes are wrong by accident. Disobedience is wrong on purpose.
Quotedoing the will of Father, etc. Another, is where Ken Vincent reported "we don't judge here"...the scriptures clearly state there will be a judment, GWT judgment, God is the Judge, etc.
Fully agreed but if you look up what judging means it has a whole different meanings than in an earthly court.
So I think the exact wording may be very important.
QuoteSo that's a couple of thoughts on it - when I hear things I (at least mentally) sort of check it against my understanding of the scriptures - still plenty of room to learn and grow in all areas, my knowledge of NDEs AND the scriptures, so ongoing process. ADDED - Some NDEs could even help me understand the scriptures better - but always this; "...they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Acts 17:11
I agree but at the same time disagree. Lets take the writing of Moses as the basis. At that time his writings were the whole Bible. New things got added over time. Not contradicting the early writings but adding. Addings that not always can be verified (because they reveal new bits in God plan). But many many verses after the writing of Moses got added and made our "complete" Bible.
IF NDEs come from God and are real can we ignore them? Did Jesus every say "The Bible is now complete."
I know lots and lots of lies are floating around. But my guess is that during the very first and very last verse in you Bible the situation was not different.
So how did they filter the truth from the lies?
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Quote[As far as perhaps] "Jesus is not the only way"....
QuoteNo man comes to the Father but [I misquoted - it's actually] THROUGH ME, and the other one, "I am the Way"...
But what is "through"? The person Jesus or His teachings of love (love=the greatst command)
QuoteFor example, if I take the stance of isolating that one scripture - He who loves knows God - and try to make it mean "if someone is kind to their neighbor, then they're born from above", aka, a born again believer - no matter what else- if they don't even believe in God, believe that Mohammed is the savior and Jesus was just a good guy - but they "love" - it ignores too many other scriptures taken in context.
There are many shades of love. Similar there are many shades of knowing Jesus. As a moslim. They all know Jesus, Noah, Moses, etc. They also believe those were very important/worthy persons. But not as high as their mohammed.
So they know Jesus. But not at the correct level.
QuoteIMO, that's what can be frightening about all these NDE reports...anyone can say anything they want. AND, there is a matter of delusion that satan would very much like people to go after and AWAY from the Written Word.
Agreed. But see what I wrote about Moses earlier in this post.
I don't know how popular this will be here but I don't mean to offend anyone. I just think that it sounds very much like human concepts regarding things like:
1-Jesus must be acknowledged and worshipped
2-You can't really love unless you know Jesus
3-Jesus will be the judge
4-Those who acknowledge Jesus will receive a special reward...like eternal life, blissful life in heaven, etc.
These all speak to me of PEOPLE doing this:
1-Persuade others to acknowledge only Jesus
2-Using threats to get people to acknowledge only Jesus
3-Passing judgment on people's "love", which is clearly forbidden by Jesus Christ, to persuade them to acknowledge Jesus
4-Using a human concept of rewards for things and punishments for things...if you only acknowledge or love Jesus to get a special reward or treatment, what kind of love is that?
But as I said, I do not accept that the Bible is 100% inerrant and infallible, and in many cases it speaks to me of people insisting that Jesus must be acknowledged when I can't fathom why a God would place so much importance on such a human concept.
I'm just not sure that everything in the Bible is perfect and 100% true, I think at least some of it is people's attempt to explain their current understanding of things which are not necessarily 100% accurate. In fact, I think much of Jesus Christ has been lost...the Jesus Christ that spoke of not judging, love for God and others, has been hijacked by people who want to worship him rather than do what he said...hijacked by the Jesus who promises big time punishment...in some ways, when I read what he allegedly said, it almost sounds like he is two different people. In other words, God made man in his image (spirit) but then man went ahead and made God is man's own image...a man on a throne in the sky who is jealous, incessantly angry, vengeful, willing to kill, willing to give orders to kill...and then we come to that little phrase "God IS love", and then since some people feel that the Bible is totally complete, inerrant and infallible, they have to try to reconcile this "LOVE" with everything else that's in it that doesn't sound like love at all...in order to keep the Bible 100% true...and that's how we end up with a schizophrenic God.
In other words, a being (God) IS the personification of ultimate love which holds no jealousy, not self seeking, keeps no record of wrong doing, delights in good...somehow has to be reconciled with the other God found in the Bible...the one of punishment and "justice"...and that's why some people are so scared of NDEs, because they so often talk about a love that is similar to what Paul wrote about...unconditional...the very personification of love itself...and they can't figure that out because they think "why isn't God judging them?" "Why isn't God warning them that they better behave or else He'll have to serve up some justice"...this mystifies them because the God of NDEs does not jive with the schizophrenic of serious business and punishment.
Jesus Christ spoke of forgiveness "70x7 times per day", and in the NDEs that forgiveness and unconditional love is taken seriously by God..it's actually being practised...yet people are scared of it because they can't figure out why the "punishment" seems to be missing. And, the concept of "judgement" in the NDE is so radically different from an old king on a throne up in the sky, that they can't figure that out either and it scares them. Why are so many people so scared of unconditional love? It's like they are actually hoping for punishment...maybe because that would reinforce their own belief to them that somehow in some strange way PERFECT love still somehow means awesome punishment.
The best Bible translation is my mother's...because she lived it...and she did without fearing punishment or having to refer to the scriptures to verify everything...she just got better and better at extending love and kindness every day of her life. Will she be awesomely punished for her mistakes? Or will she be unconditionally loved forgiven for them and embraced for trying to clean up the milk that she spilled along the way?
good testimony /witness ! BOBSON :HeartThrob: thanks for sharing that and reminding me of God is Love , love is God and no words can express love it is an action in motion and of the most spiritually universal language ever made known to mankind
its something you know but cannot explain in mere words to anyone with satisfaction ...
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fulness of God. LOVE IS GOD , GOD IS LOVE all good and perfect /complete
and lacks NOTHING .. :HeartThrob:
A BIT MORE FROM STORM'S NDE:
The entire life's review would have been emotionally destructive, and would have left me a psychotic person, if it hadn't been for the fact that my friend, and my friend's friends, were loving me during the unfolding of my life. I could feel that love. Every time I got a little upset they turned the life's review off for awhile, and they just loved me. Their love was tangible. You could feel it on your body, you could feel it inside you; their love went right through you. I wish I could explain it to you, but I can't.
The therapy was their love, because my life's review kept tearing me down. It was pitiful to watch, just pitiful. I couldn't believe it. And the thing is, it got worse as it went on. My stupidity and selfishness as a teenager only magnified as I became an adult – all under the veneer of being a good husband, a good father, and a good citizen. The hypocrisy of it all was nauseating. But through it all was their love.
They said, "No, you have to go back."
My friends then said, "Do you think that we expect you to be perfect, after all the love we feel for you, even after you were on Earth blaspheming God, and treating everyone around you like dirt? And this, despite the fact that we were sending people to try and help you, to teach you the truth? Do you really think we would be apart from you now?"
They assured me that mistakes are an acceptable part of being human.
"Go," they said, "and make all the mistakes you want. Mistakes are how you learn."
As long as I tried to do what I knew was right, they said, I would be on the right path. If I made a mistake, I should fully recognize it as a mistake, then put it behind me and simply try not to make the same mistake again. The important things is to try one's best, keep one's standards of goodness and truth, and not compromise those to win people's approval.
"But," I said, "mistakes make me feel bad."
They said, "We love you the way you are, mistakes and all. And you can feel our forgiveness. You can feel our love any time you want to."
They advised me to recognize it when I made a mistake and to ask for forgiveness. Before I even got the words out of my mouth, I would be forgiven but, I would have to accept the forgiveness. My belief in the principal of forgiveness must be real, and I would have to know that the forgiveness was given. Confessing, either in public or in private, that I had made a mistake, I should then ask for forgiveness. After that, it would be an insult to them if I didn't accept the forgiveness. I shouldn't continue to go around with a sense of guilt, and I should not repeat errors I should learn from my mistakes.
"But," I said, "how will I know what is the right choice? How will I know what you want me to do?"
They replied, "We want you to do what you want to do. That means making choices and there isn't necessarily any right choice. There are a spectrum of possibilities, and you should make the best choice you can from those possibilities. If you do that, we will be there helping you."
I didn't give in easily. I argued that back there was full of problems and that here was everything I could possibly want. I questioned my ability to accomplish anything they would consider important in my world. They said the world is a beautiful expression of the Supreme being. One can find beauty or ugliness depending on what one directs one's mind toward.
QuoteGo," they said, "and make all the mistakes you want. Mistakes are how you learn."
Just try not to kill too many people? Break too many hearts? Wreck too much havok?
They seem to have left that out. As long as you are learning, who cares what happens to the rest of us?
QuoteAs long as I tried to do what I knew was right, they said, I would be on the right path.
Stalin thought he was doing what was right, didn't he? Was he on the right path? And, those mowed down by him, were they on the wrong path?
QuoteIf I made a mistake, I should fully recognize it as a mistake, then put it behind me and simply try not to make the same mistake again.
How are you going to recognize it as a mistake? Because you lost the war? Because you got caught? Because somebody put the truth about you up on youtube?
QuoteThe important things is to try one's best, keep one's standards of goodness and truth, and not compromise those to win people's approval.
Goodness and truth is according to one's standards? That means we have 7 billion standards of goodness and truth? Or just three--Stalin's, Hitler's, and Jesus'?
QuoteIn addition, Howard later asked them if they (the angels) had ever been human, and they assured him that they had been human as well as also from among the variety of life forms that had paraded before him in the holographic procession described above. I will leave the reader to ponder on one's own the wondrous implications of these revelations!
This is the most radical form of evolution I've ever seen--from et sea slug to angel? Is the angel the highest form of evolution, then? That means angels are descended from monkeys, too?
The problem with all of this is that it makes the creation more important than the Creator. And, it makes humans the most important of all (at least until they meet their ET betters).
Molly, with due respect, this is just silly. You might think you have hit the nail right on the head but it's really very easy to discredit everything you've written.
MOLLY:How are you going to recognize it as a mistake? Because you lost the war? Because you got caught? Because somebody put the truth about you up on youtube?
ANS:How about recognizing it as a mistake because there's either very little, or no, love involved in it? Is that so hard to figure out? How would you Molly, like to "correct" someone in that situation? By making them suffer for 200 years? Why would this satisfy you? How much suffering and punishment would you like to see them get? What makes you think you aren't getting the same amount of punishment that you desire for others, simply because you desire it?
MOLLY:Just try not to kill too many people? Break too many hearts? Wreck too much havok?
ANS:Is killing people, breaking hearts, and wreacking havoc considered love? You missed the whole point. The points are that nothing that kills people, breaks hearts and wreaks havoc is any kind of love at all. Think very carefully and ask yourself if you could accept that a killer or heart breaker could possibly be loved by God? You want "human justice" Molly...you want them to PAY big time...but if you and I want this for others, it might really mean that WE need the fire.
MOLLY:Stalin thought he was doing what was right, didn't he? Was he on the right path? And, those mowed down by him, were they on the wrong path?
ANS:Did anything that he did consist of a definition of love? If not, then he wasn't on the right path was he? How much suffering would you like to see him get because of that? How much should he burn and for how long? How much and for how long should you and I burn?
MOLLY:This is the most radical form of evolution I've ever seen--from et sea slug to angel?
ANS:Sea slug to angel?? Molly, again you missed the point...you will need to sharpen your understanding a bit perhaps...they were NOT talking about earth evolution from a sea slug to an angel...they were saying they had indeed been human people as well as from the variety of other life forms they had paraded in front of him...they are referring to the other beings (life forms) living in other dimensions.
Molly, for all these actions that you have outlined in your post, let me ask you: Do you wish for or hope that SOME people are going to get "justice" and suffer terribly for a LONG time? Do you hope that their suffering is really awful? Do you want them to pay big time? If so, you might want to reconsider and start loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you.
Think about that very carefully before you answer. I didn't notice anything about forgiveness in your post? Do you wish for people who steal bubble gum or even commit murder to suffer untold agony? If so, you may want to step back and consider your ability to "forgive 70x7 per day"...and see if it lines up with what you are wishing for other people. Perhaps the need for others to get "the fire" is an indication that WE need the fire as well.
MOLLY: The problem with all of this is that it makes the creation more important than the Creator.
ANS: It does? If you think it does then perhaps you should read it more carefully. The creation is not MORE important than the Creator...the fact is that the spirit of the Creator is WITHIN the creation...so treat the creation accordingly.
Quote from: Molly on March 02, 2010, 04:33:46 PM
QuoteGo," they said, "and make all the mistakes you want. Mistakes are how you learn."
Just try not to kill too many people? Break too many hearts? Wreck too much havok?
They seem to have left that out. As long as you are learning, who cares what happens to the rest of us?
QuoteAs long as I tried to do what I knew was right, they said, I would be on the right path.
Stalin thought he was doing what was right, didn't he? Was he on the right path? And, those mowed down by him, were they on the wrong path?
QuoteIf I made a mistake, I should fully recognize it as a mistake, then put it behind me and simply try not to make the same mistake again.
How are you going to recognize it as a mistake? Because you lost the war? Because you got caught? Because somebody put the truth about you up on youtube?
QuoteThe important things is to try one's best, keep one's standards of goodness and truth, and not compromise those to win people's approval.
Goodness and truth is according to one's standards? That means we have 7 billion standards of goodness and truth? Or just three--Stalin's, Hitler's, and Jesus'?
QuoteIn addition, Howard later asked them if they (the angels) had ever been human, and they assured him that they had been human as well as also from among the variety of life forms that had paraded before him in the holographic procession described above. I will leave the reader to ponder on one's own the wondrous implications of these revelations!
This is the most radical form of evolution I've ever seen--from et sea slug to angel? Is the angel the highest form of evolution, then? That means angels are descended from monkeys, too?
The problem with all of this is that it makes the creation more important than the Creator. And, it makes humans the most important of all (at least until they meet their ET betters).
Molly do you think any of these ever experienced Love and Compassion ever ? or were these examples like Paul in his ignorance persectued Christ Body / the true Church , till the Lord come
and made the seeing blinded by Truth/ Jesus
Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now you say, We see; therefore your sin remains.
And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus:
and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: Act 9:4
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought [him] into Damascus.
Act 9:9
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. Act 9:10 ¶ And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.
Act 9:11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him,
Act 9:13
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him,
Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: Act 9:16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20 ¶ And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Molly, with due respect, this is just silly. You might think you have hit the nail right on the head but it's really very easy to discredit everything you've written.
MOLLY:How are you going to recognize it as a mistake? Because you lost the war? Because you got caught? Because somebody put the truth about you up on youtube?
ANS:How about recognizing it as a mistake because there's either very little, or no, love involved in it? Is that so hard to figure out? How would you Molly, like to "correct" someone in that situation? By making them suffer for 200 years? Why would this satisfy you? How much suffering and punishment would you like to see them get? What makes you think you aren't getting the same amount of punishment that you desire for others, simply because you desire it?
MOLLY:Just try not to kill too many people? Break too many hearts? Wreck too much havok?
ANS:Is killing people, breaking hearts, and wreacking havoc considered love? You missed the whole point. The points are that nothing that kills people, breaks hearts and wreaks havoc is any kind of love at all. Think very carefully and ask yourself if you could accept that a killer or heart breaker could possibly be loved by God? You want "human justice" Molly...you want them to PAY big time...but if you and I want this for others, it might really mean that WE need the fire.
MOLLY:Stalin thought he was doing what was right, didn't he? Was he on the right path? And, those mowed down by him, were they on the wrong path?
ANS:Did anything that he did consist of a definition of love? If not, then he wasn't on the right path was he? How much suffering would you like to see him get because of that? How much should he burn and for how long? How much and for how long should you and I burn?
MOLLY:This is the most radical form of evolution I've ever seen--from et sea slug to angel?
ANS:Sea slug to angel?? Molly, again you missed the point...you will need to sharpen your understanding a bit perhaps...they were NOT talking about earth evolution from a sea slug to an angel...they were saying they had indeed been human people as well as from the variety of other life forms they had paraded in front of him...they are referring to the other beings (life forms) living in other dimensions.
Molly, for all these actions that you have outlined in your post, let me ask you: Do you wish for or hope that SOME people are going to get "justice" and suffer terribly for a LONG time? Do you hope that their suffering is really awful? Do you want them to pay big time? If so, you might want to reconsider and start loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you.
Think about that very carefully before you answer. I didn't notice anything about forgiveness in your post? Do you wish for people who steal bubble gum or even commit murder to suffer untold agony? If so, you may want to step back and consider your ability to "forgive 70x7 per day"...and see if it lines up with what you are wishing for other people. Perhaps the need for others to get "the fire" is an indication that WE need the fire as well.
MOLLY: The problem with all of this is that it makes the creation more important than the Creator.
ANS: It does? If you think it does then perhaps you should read it more carefully. The creation is not MORE important than the Creator...the fact is that the spirit of the Creator is WITHIN the creation...so treat the creation accordingly.
I have just one more thing to say regarding Molly's post:
As he hung on the cross, he said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
Notice he didn't say "Father give them both barrels because they REALLY screwed me over"?
On a side note...my dad was in WW2 as a Brent Gun operator for four years. He was also hit and spent the last 3 weeks of the war in the hospital and then it ended. My dad almost never spoke anything about that...ever. I remember 3 or 4 times in his life that it came out...and he would cry about it. He cried about what was happening there. But you know what the one thing that I never heard him say, when he cried about the horrors that went on?
I never heard him ever say anything EVER about "poor me for having to do that"....and I never EVER heard him say "the Germans/Nazis should have gotten every single thing done to them that they did to us, and others, there better be a payback." He never said it once.
And judging from the pictures he brought back with him, that I still have...well...let's just say that those pictures are beyond your imagination and beyond anything you saw in a schoolbook.
GODS GRACE made known those whom generously gave of their hearts to others because that heart is the Lords working though all chosen to do His will on the earth those angels unawares .... that heal what has been stolen or broken from God evil destroys its self !
when satan is divided against satan its house has an end !
Hebrews 13
Concluding Words
1 Keep on loving each other as brothers and sisters.
2 Don't forget to show hospitality to strangers, for some who have done this have entertained angels without realizing it!
3 Remember those in prison, as if you were there yourself.
Remember also those being mistreated, as if you felt their pain in your own bodies.
4 Give honor to marriage, and remain faithful to one another in marriage. God will surely judge people who are immoral and those who commit adultery.
5 Don't love money; be satisfied with what you have. For God has said,
"I will never fail you.
I will never abandon you."
6 So we can say with confidence,
"The Lord is my helper,
so I will have no fear.
What can mere people do to me?"
7 Remember your leaders who taught you the word of God. Think of all the good that has come from their lives, and follow the example of their faith.
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
9 So do not be attracted by strange, new ideas.
Your strength comes from God's grace, not from rules about food, which don't help those who follow them.
10 We have an altar from which the priests in the Tabernacle have no right to eat.
11 Under the old system, the high priest brought the blood of animals into the Holy Place as a sacrifice for sin, and the bodies of the animals were burned outside the camp.
12 So also Jesus suffered and died outside the city gates to make his people holy by means of his own blood.
13 So let us go out to him, outside the camp, and bear the disgrace he bore.
14 For this world is not our permanent home; we are looking forward to a home yet to come.
15 Therefore, let us offer through Jesus a continual sacrifice of praise to God, proclaiming our allegiance to his name. 16 And don't forget to do good and to share with those in need. These are the sacrifices that please God.
17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.
:soap:
I do understand Molly , i too want justice , but do not know what justice of God is sometimes :mblush:
to me those types of personality traits of evil , hate , liars all things bad are consumed in the Fire of Gods love , some will know that shame of being partakers with it / Sin but to me its not forever
How can God be love and let suffering continue without an end ?
where would be the justice in that ?
I am worthy of death and yet my own hope is in Gods grace and forgiveness as we all learn to love and forgive in the same way as God does
we suffer for doing good and do suffer for doing evil both have an End
for those who believe Christ is the End and those whom do evil the end is death
we all have tasted death .. Even Jesus for us has tasted death for every man , so His death has great purpose in Gods will its not in vain ever ...
it is better God will you suffer for doing good than evil doing
1peter 3 All Christians
8 Finally, all of you should be of one mind.
Sympathize with each other.
Love each other as brothers and sisters. Be tenderhearted, and keep a humble attitude.
9 Don't repay evil for evil. Don't retaliate with insults when people insult you. Instead, pay them back with a blessing. That is what God has called you to do, and he will bless you for it.
10 For the Scriptures say,
"If you want to enjoy life
and see many happy days,
keep your tongue from speaking evil
and your lips from telling lies.
11 Turn away from evil and do good.
Search for peace, and work to maintain it.
12 The eyes of the Lord watch over those who do right,
and his ears are open to their prayers.
But the Lord turns his face
against those who do evil."[b]
Suffering for Doing Good
13 Now, who will want to harm you if you are eager to do good?
14 But even if you suffer for doing what is right, God will reward you for it.
So don't worry or be afraid of their threats.
15 Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life.
And if someone asks about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it.
16 But do this in a gentle and respectful way.
Keep your conscience clear.
Then if people speak against you, they will be ashamed when they see what a good life you live because you belong to Christ.
17 Remember, it is better to suffer for doing good, if that is what God wants, than to suffer for doing wrong!
18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.[e]
19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.[f]
21 And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from[g] a clean conscience.
It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
22 Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his authority.
:icon_flower:
QuoteMOLLY: The problem with all of this is that it makes the creation more important than the Creator.
ANS: It does? If you think it does then perhaps you should read it more carefully. The creation is not MORE important than the Creator...the fact is that the spirit of the Creator is WITHIN the creation...so treat the creation accordingly.
I'm just thinking of this discussion I had the other day with a guy who was telling me there is no wrong and no right, there are just choices. Don't you think the suicide bombers think they are doing the right thing, he said?
Yes, they do think they are right, I said--they are deceived, because there is a wrong and a right, and our only hope to ever find out the truth is from our Creator. We will never discern it for ourselves.
Exodus 13:9
This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that the law of the LORD is to be on your lips. For the LORD brought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.
MOLLY: I'm just thinking of this discussion I had the other day with a guy who was telling me there is no wrong and no right, there are just choices.
ANS:I see. So he sounds very much like a new ager...a moral relativist. I'm neither of those. I think there is wrong and right, although cultures can affect those definitions I suppose. That's also why I think Jesus Christ offers the highest form of discernment with it with things like "love others as I have loved you", "forgive 70x7 times per day". And then Paul gives the best definition of that love you could ever ask for...so anything that doesn't measure up to what Jesus Christ said, and Paul made clear, can't possibly be 'right'.
At least that's how I see it. It's also the hardest thing to do...just try and forgive someone who murders your family member...easy to say but not so easy to do...yet it seems that we're called to just that. And that's not something that people like to do, I don't think, I know I have a very hard time with that myself. Any "choice" that doesn't include SELF-LESS-NESS...is self-ISH, and it seems that that choice of self-ISH, is "wrong". Plain and simple.
I also don't really know how to tackle such a thing because how do you get someone to understand that? It seems like so many in the world are really only interested in themselves. Take "counsellors" for example...basically they instruct people who have problems in the way that "it's all about YOU, you have to do what's best for YOU". But doesn't this seem exactly backwards? Couldn't marriages be helped if it reversed and they were instructed "It's NOT about YOU, it's about the OTHER"...wouldn't you then have people forgetting about themselves and trying to be all they can be for their partner?
Wouldn't a lot of other things in the world be different if this principle of unconditional love, forgiveness and kindness, along with a different world view that EXCLUDES selfish thought, were taught?
In other words...it's not about what I can get out of something, it's about what I can give to that something. And, Molly, I'm sorry if I upset you...I didn't mean to and I hope you would forgive me if I did.
Or maybe it's not about getting someone to "get it", but instead, leading by example...that might be the best Bible translation as well. Mother Teresa seems like a pretty good example, if people only realized just how significant she was...however they seem to be more interested in Princess Diana.
QuoteWouldn't a lot of other things in the world be different if this principle of unconditional love, forgiveness and kindness, along with a different world view that EXCLUDES selfish thought, were taught?
Well, yes, it is a message that has been taught for 2000 years.
I saw a movie, Flame and Citron [Flammen and Citronen], about two freedom fighters. These are two selfless men trying to do the right thing for their country.
"The movie is based on actual events and eye-witness accounts of two of the most active resistance fighters in the Holger Danske resistance group during World War II, Bent Faurschou-Hviid (known as Flame) and Jørgen Haagen Schmith (known as Citron), who both died during the war."--Wikipedia
The story seems simple enough--the mission of the good guys [Danes] is to kill the bad guys [Nazi's]. The problem is, to make a long story short, every decision they make to kill or not to kill is wrong. They kill the innocent and let the monsters go free--not because that is their intent, but because they simply cannot tell the difference--there are so many double agents and betrayers and thugs and so much deception floating around that men of good hearts cannot discern the hearts of their fellow men accurately. So it's a just a mess. And, such a waste, and two beautiful young men compromise themselves and end up dying for nothing. This is the horror of war.
Why is it so easy for a small group of very bad guys to run the playground when they are so outnumbered by the others?
We have to cling to him, or we are lost.
Psalm 63:8
My soul clings to you; your right hand upholds me.
Yes, I would agree with that. That's what my mother always taught me, and she tried to live it as well. My mother and dad have both left this world, and do I ever wish they would just come home again.
HERE IS AN ARTICLE I FOUND TODAY:
When we die, there will be a review or "judgment" of our lives, and we will be astounded at the effect we had on others, and on God's Creation. As one woman from Long Island put it, she saw how every nice word or action created light that circled the world while each negativity did the opposite.
More than one such near-death witness has seen this "ripple" effect -- how what we do not only affects those with whom we interact, but often others, indirectly, down the line, like a stone thrown into a pond.
We are what we radiate.
Even in the physical, a kind word can set a chain-reaction of goodness while a rude remark could pass on from one person to the next until in the course of a day it reaches a person who is mentally unbalanced and may even commit a violent act, all rooted in that first unkind interaction.
When we die we may be responsible for more than we commonly think, and Easter is the time for self-examination. In a book by Dr. Jeffrey Long, a radiation oncologist who has studied more than a thousand near-death cases, a woman named Linda related that: "I saw everything from birth till then in fast motion.
"Also while this was happening I could feel the feelings of these events.
"I could feel any pain I gave out to others. I also felt the goodness I'd given out. God asked if I was happy with how things went, and I said yes. He asked me how I felt, and I said I was a little nervous. He explained that this was because all my life I felt this way and it is sort of why I didn't handle life properly.
That is precisely what those who have been declared dead but revive have reported.
Said another: "Everything I ever thought, did, said, hated, helped, did not help, should have helped, how mean I was (unintentionally also) to animals! Yes! Even the animals had had feelings. It was horrible. I fell on my face in shame. I saw how my acting, or not acting, rippled in effect towards other people and their lives. It wasn't until then that I understood how each little decision or choice affects the world. The sense of letting my Savior down was too real."
However: "Strangely, even during this," she said, "I felt a compassion, an acceptance of my limitations, by Jesus and the crowd of others."
Just a quick note of clarification. For one to believe the scriptures are reliable, trustworthy, God-breathed, does not say each translation and interpretation is inerrant or "infallable" - whatever that means.
My belief (and the default setting at TM) is that the scriptures are to be respected, and they are trustworthy - accurately translated, Spirit-revealed, and rightly divided. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on March 02, 2010, 09:18:08 PM
Just a quick note of clarification. For one to believe the scriptures are reliable, trustworthy, God-breathed, does not say each translation and interpretation is inerrant or "infallable" - whatever that means.
My belief (and the default setting at TM) is that the scriptures are to be respected, and they are trustworthy - accurately translated, Spirit-revealed, and rightly divided. :thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
:HeartThrob: Thanks James ...
I agree with James, my personal opinion is that scripture provides enough information, but it does not contain everything there is to know. Most references to the infallible word of God ARE referring to the interpretation someone is expressing.
For instance, if ET is the doctrine then the infallible word of God says ET is true and it is not to be questioned.
I maintain that the scriptures are the absolute truth spiritually, since no man has all truth, it is wrong for me to say that because I read scripture that all I believe is inerrant.
Otherwise, one could argue that Jesus is not the messiah since scripture is errant and untrustworthy.
Thanks for your input rosie and Paul.
Through the night, I got worried that I mispoke about my belief regarding "infallable". I've just never used that word, so I had to think about it some more :laughing7:.
I think I'd have to add (to my own thoughts) that IF we had the originals that God breathed (God-breathed), I'd certainly have to say that's infallable AND inerrant. Obviously though, what we have are translations. However, when the oldest manuscripts are compared, they actually are incredibly agreeable and accurate with each other.
Which brings me to the second thing I'd add to my own thoughts :bigGrin:. Even with all the translational issues, I still believe as you indicate Paul, the truths of God are there...He promised (don't remember the passage) that He would preserve His (Written) Word to us, so I believe He did. So IMO, that's where the "study to show yourself approved..." - "it's the glory of God to conceal a matter and the honor of kings to SEARCH OUT a matter", etc. come into play - and as God veils and reveals to each one of us. I also believe we're getting closer and closer to knowing what (VERY FEW) words and partial sentences may be spurrious, as wellas what more closely and accurately translated scriptures to the original languages actually are and look like (Young's, then the CLV, and now The Christian Bible, etc.). So BASICALLY, ITS ESSENCE, THE CORE of THE MESSAGE, THE SPIRIT, WHAT HE WANTS US TO KNOW - even in the translations we now have, I believe IF Spirit-revealed to an individual, then the logos is actually infallable in its essence and message to us - because God "don't talk no trash" :Sparkletooth:. For whatever reasons, and He does have His reasons - He has veiled us and allowed us to put our slants on things to the point that we certainly do have plenty of confusion. But IMO, that isn't a failure of God or His Words to us - it's part of His plan that will eventually lead exactly where He intends for it to go.
So bottom line, I meant no personal disrespect of the scriptures in anything I had to say, so wanted to clarify for my own conscience. As with many things with the Lord, there's a whole lot to think about. Thanks for hearing me out. :thumbsup:
Anyway, back to the OP I guess. I have some thoughts I may post later regarding some of the wild claims people make vs. what's our plumb line and (hint) "lamp unto our feet and light that guides our path" as we hear and examine all these claims - attempting to "test the spirits to see if they're of God".
God is good, James.
Hello Jabcat and Paul, since I am searching for answers myself...here are a few main things that make me have a very hard time with a lot of the Bible. That's not to say that I disrespect it or disrespect Jesus Christ, in fact, I would like to be able to know Jesus Christ a lot better than I do. Here are those things that I choke on, that I wish there were some way to get around:
1-So much of the Bible always seems to be threatening, and it seems to me that threatening is like poison to someone who is sensitive and has a heart.
2-Even what's written about Jesus Christ seems to be almost "bi-polar" or "schizophrenic"...meaning on one hand he says to forgive virtually without limit and the next time he's threatening to NOT forgive, judge you and throw you into a blazing ash can. It's this kind of thing that makes me wonder if he really said everything that's written in there.
3-It seems to contain all kinds of reasons for someone to be killed and in the OT God seems to be more than willing to kill or give orders to kill.
4-If someone were to tell the family of someone who had just died that their loved one suffering right now, that family would, in many cases (unless they're fundamentalists)would outright reject that God and deny his existence...in fact the statement may even cause another death, and I don't see how anything that's good could possibly justify this. When someone dies, if their family cares about them at all, they're looking for assurance, security, comfort and peace...not threats and horrible punishment for the one that they love.
5-As I understand it, there are over 20,000 different Christian "organizations" who all claim to be "right" and they all seem to be able to pull out the Bible and "prove" it to you. They can't all be right.
6-When Paul wirites that God is love, and then there is a definition of that love...to me this practically contradicts most of the rest of the Bible.
7-That Lucidfer translation changes everything at least as I see it..all of a sudden the fallen angel story seems to be invalid...so how did it get there in the first place?
8-If "satan" was the serpent in the garden and he was banished to "eat dust" from then on, then how is this dust eating snake supposed to be the same being that seems pretty friendly with God in the Job story?
These are the main things that I have a hard time dealing with.
ABOUT THE KILLING I WAS REFERRING TO...HERE IS WHAT I MEAN...AND THIS DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT IT SEEMS A BIT LIKE PAUL ACTUALLY ENCOURAGED THE KILLING OF SOMEONE IN THE NT AS WELL:
Verse Number killed Cumulative total
1 God drowns everyone of earth (except Noah and his family) Genesis 7:23
30,000,000 30,000,000
2 God rains fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone.
Genesis 19:24
1,000 30,001,000
3 Lot's wife for looking back
Genesis 19:26
1 30,001,001
4 Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord"
Genesis 38:7, 1 Chronicles 2:3
1 30,001,002
5 Onan for spilling his seed
Genesis 38:10
1 30,001,003
6 A 7 year, world-wide famine
Genesis 41:25-54
70,000 30,071,003
7 7th Egyptian Plague: Hail
Exodus 9:25
300,000 30,371,003
8 God kills every Egyptian firstborn child.
Exodus 12:29-30
1,000,000 31,371,003
9 God drowns Egyptian army
Exodus 14:8-26
5000 31,376,003
10 God and Moses help Joshua kill the Amalekites
Exodus 17:13
1000 31,377,003
11 Israelites for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf
Exodus 32:27-28, 35
3000 31,380,003
12 God plagued the people because of the calf that Aaron made
Exodus 32:35
1000 31,381,003
13 Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord
Leviticus 10:1-3; Numbers 3:4, 26:61
2 31,381,005
14 A blasphemer
Leviticus 24:10-23
1 31,381,006
15 God burned people to death for complaining
Numbers 11:1
100 31,381,106
16 God sent "a very great plague" for complaining about the food.
Numbers 11:33
10,000 31,391,106
17 God killed ten scouts with a plague.
Numbers 14:35-36
10 31,391,116
18 A man who gathered firewood on the sabbath
Numbers 15:32-36
1 31,391,117
19 Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families)
Numbers 16:27
12 31,391,129
20 Burned to death for offering incense
Numbers 16:35
250 31,391,379
21 For complaining
Numbers 16:49
14,700 31,406,079
22 Massacre of the Aradites
Numbers 21:1-3
3,000 31,409,079
23 For complaining about the lack of food and water, God sent fiery serpents to bite the people.
Numbers 21:6
100 31,409,179
24 God delivers the Bashanites into Moses' hands and Moses kills them all
Numbers 21:34-35
2,000 31,411,179
25 Phinehas impales a mixed-race couple having sex
Numbers 25:6-8
2 31,411,181
26 Israelites for "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab"
Numbers 25:9
24,000 31,435,181
27 Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Numbers 31:1-35
200,000 31,635,181
28 God kills the entire Israelite army
Deuteronomy 2:14-16
500,000 32,135,181
29 The slaughter of the Zamzummim, Horim, Avim, and the Caphtorim
Deuteronomy 2:21-22
10,000 32,145,181
30 God hardened the king of Heshbon's heart so that the Israelites could massacre his people. (included several cities) Deuteronomy 2:33-34
3,000 32,148,181
31 All the men, women, and children in 60 cities
Deuteronomy 3:3-6
60,000 32,208,181
32 Massacre of Jericho
Joshua 6:21
1,000 32,209,181
33 Achan (and his his sons and daughters) for taking the accursed thing
Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26
5 32,209,186
34 The Ai Massacre
Joshua 8:1-25
12,000 32,221,186
35 God slaughters the Amorites
Joshua 10:10-11
5,000 32,226,186
36 Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees
Joshua 10:24-26
5 32,226,191
37 Massacre of 7 kingdoms
Joshua 10:28-42
7,000 32,233,191
38 The remaining kingdoms
Joshua 11:8-12
10,000 32,243,191
39 Massacre of the Anakim
Joshua 11:20-21
5,000 32,248,191
40 God delivers the Canaanites and Perizzites
Judges 1:4
10,000 32,258,191
41 The Jerusalem Massacre
Judges 1:8
1000 32,259,191
42 Ten Massacres, a wedding, and some God-proof iron chariots
Judges 1:9-25
10,000 32,269,191
43 The LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim
Judges 3:7-10
1000 32,270,191
44 Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife in the belly
Judges 3:15-22
1 32,270,192
45 God delivers 10,000 Moabites
Judges 3:28-29
10,000 32,280,192
46 Barak and God massacre the Canaanites
Judges 4:14
1,000 32,281,192
47 Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's head
Judges 4:18-25
1 32,281,193
48 God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other
Judges 7:22, 8:10
120,000 32,401,193
49 A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit
Judges 9:23-57
2001 32,403,194
50 The Ammonite massacre
Judges 11:29-33
20,000 32,423,194
51 Jephthah's daughter
Judges 11:34-39
1 32,423,195
52 The spirit of the Lord comes on Samson and he murders 30 men for their clothes
Judges 14:19
30 32,423,225
53 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon Samson and he kills 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass
Judges 15:14-15
1,000 32,424,225
54 Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism
Judges 16:27-30
3,000 32,427,225
55 A Holy Civil War
Judges 20:35-37
65,100 32,492,325
56 God kills Eli's sons
1 Samuel 2:25, 34; 4:11
2 32,492,327
57 God smote three cities with hemorrhoids in their secret parts
1 Samuel 5:1-12
3,000 32,495,327
58 For looking into the ark of the Lord
1 Samuel 6:19
50,070 32,545,397
59 The LORD thundered with a great thunder upon the Philistines
1 Samuel 7:10-11
1000 32,546,397
60 The Ammonite Massacre (and another God-inspired body part message)
1 Samuel 7:11-13
1000 32,547,397
61 Jonathan's very first slaughter (not counting the one before)
1 Samuel 14:12
20 32,547,417
62 God forces the Philistine soldiers to kill each other.
1 Samuel 14:20
1,000 32,548,417
63 The Amalekite Genocide
1 Samuel 15:2-3
10,000 32,558,417
64 Samuel hacks Agag to pieces before the Lord
1 Samuel 15:32-33
1 32,558,418
65 God delivers the Philistines.
1 Samuel 23:2-5
1,000 32,559,418
66 "The Lord smote Nabal."
1 Samuel 25:38
1 32,559,419
67 David spends the day killing Amalekites
1 Samuel 30:17
1000 32,560,419
68 God has the Philistines kill Israelite soldiers
1 Samuel 31:6, 1 Chronicles 10:6
100 32,560,519
69 Saul and his three sons
1 Samuel 31:6, 1 Chronicles 10:6
4 32,560,523
70 God delivers the Philistines to David (from the front)
2 Samuel 5:19
1,000 32,561,523
71 God delivers the Philistines to David (from behind)
2 Samuel 5:25
1,000 32,562,523
72 Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling
2 Samuel 6:6-7, 1 Chronicles 13:9-10
1 32,562,524
73 David and Bathsheba's baby boy
2 Samuel 12:14-18
1 32,562,525
74 God sent a three-year famine because of something Saul did.
2 Samuel 21:1
3000 32,565,525
75 Saul's two sons and five grandsons hung up before the Lord
2 Samuel 21:6-9
7 32,565,532
76 God kills 200,000 people because David did a census that God told him to do
2 Samuel 24:15, 1 Chronicles 21:14
200,000 32,765,532
77 A lion is sent by God to kill a prophet for believing another prophet's lie
1 Kings 13:1-24
1 32,765,533
78 Jeroboam's son
1 Kings 14:17
1 32,765,534
79 Jeroboams's familiy
1 Kings 15:29
10 32,765,544
80 Baasha's family and friends
1 Kings 16:11-12
20 32,765,564
81 The first God-assisted slaughter of the Syrians
1 Kings 20:28-29
10,000 32,775,564
82 God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a God of the hills
1 Kings 20:28-29
100,000 32,875,564
83 God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers
1 Kings 20:30
27,000 32,902,564
84 God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet
1 Kings 20:35-36
1 32,902,565
85 Ahab for not killing a captured king
1 Kings 20:42, 22:35
1 32,902,566
86 51 men are burned to death by God for asking Elijah to come down from his hill
2 Kings 1:10
51 32,902,617
87 Another 51 men are burned to death by God for asking Elijah to come down from his hill
2 Kings 1:12
51 32,902,668
88 Ahaziah is killed for asking the wrong god
2 Kings 1:2-4, 17; 2 Chronicles 22:7-9
1 32,902,669
89 God sent two bears to kill 42 children for making fun of Elisha's bald head
2 Kings 2:23-24
42 32,902,711
90 God delivered the Moabites
2 Kings 3:18-25
1000 32,903,711
91 God calls for a seven year famine.
2 Kings 8:1
7000 32,910,711
92 Jehoram
2 Kings 9:24
1 32,910,712
93 Jezebel
2 Kings 9:33-37
1 32,910,713
94 Ahab's family 2 Kings 10:16-17
10 32,910,723
95 God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners for not fearing him 2 Kings 17:25-26
10 32,910,733
96 Sleeping Assyrian soldiers 2 Kings 19:35; Isaiah 37:36
185,000 33,095,733
97 God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chronicles 13:15-17
500,000 33,595,733
98 Jeroboam 2 Chronicles 13:20
1 33,595,734
99 "The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chronicles 14:9-14
1,000,000 34,595,734
100 God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out 2 Chronicles 21:14-19
1 34,595,735
101 Judean soldiers killed for forsaking God 2 Chronicles 28:6
120,000 34,715,735
102 God delivered the Israelites into the hand of the Chaldeans. 2 Chronicles 36:16-17
1000 34,716,735
103 God and Satan kill Job's children and servants Job 1:1-19
60?
34,716,795
104 Ezekiel's wife Ezekiel 24:15-18
1 34,716,796
105 Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10
2 34,716,798
106 Herod Acts 12:23
1 34,716,799
Bobson, the bottom line is that you don't have to 'know' everything, but do you trust God?
Job 13:15
Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
Quote from: Bobson on March 03, 2010, 01:58:45 PM
1-So much of the Bible always seems to be threatening, and it seems to me that threatening is like poison to someone who is sensitive and has a heart.
God is depicted in the bible as destroying the entire worlds population and leaving one worthy family. Yes indeed Bobson, but what does it really mean? Well, I know that God destroyed an entire civilization, it was within me, it was drug abuse, and me and my family survived. If you get that metaphor your well on your way to the truth of scripture.
Quote2-Even what's written about Jesus Christ seems to be almost "bi-polar" or "schizophrenic"...meaning on one hand he says to forgive virtually without limit and the next time he's threatening to NOT forgive, judge you and throw you into a blazing ash can. It's this kind of thing that makes me wonder if he really said everything that's written in there.
It is a matter of translation. From any point of view Bobson do you agree that anything goes? If not anything goes and in some way there is accountability for what we do then you know full well that everyone reaps what they sow in some regaurd and some consequenses are just what you will have to endure till they are over no matter how much forgiveness exists. In biblical terms forgiveness of sins is entirely different than reaping the consequenses of your actions.
Quote3-It seems to contain all kinds of reasons for someone to be killed and in the OT God seems to be more than willing to kill or give orders to kill.
See my answer to 1
Quote
4-If someone were to tell the family of someone who had just died that their loved one suffering right now, that family would, in many cases (unless they're fundamentalists)would outright reject that God and deny his existence...in fact the statement may even cause another death, and I don't see how anything that's good could possibly justify this. When someone dies, if their family cares about them at all, they're looking for assurance, security, comfort and peace...not threats and horrible punishment for the one that they love.
Well, I have seen other belief system have just as much nonesense, I've had heard of people afraid to cut down a tree because it might be their dead uncle reincarnated into one. People say all kinds of crap that has nothing to do with whether the belief system or the bible actually was meant to convey such a message.
Quote
5-As I understand it, there are over 20,000 different Christian "organizations" who all claim to be "right" and they all seem to be able to pull out the Bible and "prove" it to you. They can't all be right.
No one has said they are, this has nothing to do with the scriptures being flawed.
Quote6-When Paul wirites that God is love, and then there is a definition of that love...to me this practically contradicts most of the rest of the Bible.
It contradicts what you believe it says.
Gods Wrath has the aim to perfect something, which is love, if you love your kids you correct them even if they may hate you when you do. Does this mean if you correct your kids and they hate you that bobson is now bad and evil?
Quote
7-That Lucidfer translation changes everything at least as I see it..all of a sudden the fallen angel story seems to be invalid...so how did it get there in the first place?
It is because people do not really care to learn truth, and there could be countless reasons, most Christians do not even realize that while calling Mormons a cult the greatest influence to the idea of "the fall" "a war in heaven" "fallen angels" comes from the mormon bible. LOL
Quote
8-If "satan" was the serpent in the garden and he was banished to "eat dust" from then on, then how is this dust eating snake supposed to be the same being that seems pretty friendly with God in the Job story?
Again translation and interpretation . You get no argument from me on the ills of religion, but religion and the bible are actually mutually exclusive.
QuoteThese are the main things that I have a hard time dealing with.
And you will continue to have problems with them as long as you argue about what religion says the bible says.
A lot of good thoughts Paul, thanks.
Bobson, you probably won't (intellectually) like my answer. It goes along with what Molly said. Please think about it, let it dwell on you, let it sink in before automatically rejecting it.
There are many things in the scriptures I don't understand or that don't necessarily "set well" especially with my carnal mind and flesh. Remember, our carnal/fleshly mind is enmity (against) God. That's why we need the spiritual rebirth - it's miraculous, something God does, not me just "making up my mind to believe" something or knowing and understanding everything.
I have questioned and fought against God. What He has taught me and continues to teach me is this; trust He IS, that He is what He says He is, that He will let me know and understand more as it suits His purposes and as I'm ready for it, and then to humble myself before Him, accepting and bowing before anything and everything He says He is. For He needs to change me, not me attempt to change Him to fit my own thoughts and imaginations. Been there, done that, doesn't work. It's part of the broad path that leads to destruction.
There are scriptures that talk of "what does the creation have to say about what the Creator decides to do", and "walk humbly before your God". Then there are MANY promises about the outcome - all things working together for good, God redeeming/reconciling all His creation, Job's end result was better than where things began...
So, trust, humble myself before Him, bow and obey as He empowers. The final result is up to Him.
James.
The first thing I want to say, is that I appreciate not getting banned for posting some rather ill looking Biblical things...and the next thing I would like to say is that I appreciate that no one answered me in a hostile way. It says a lot about some of the people here, and it has not gone un-noticed by me. Now, I would like to say this:
PAUL: From any point of view Bobson do you agree that anything goes? If not anything goes and in some way there is accountability for what we do then you know full well that everyone reaps what they sow in some regaurd and some consequenses are just what you will have to endure till they are over no matter how much forgiveness exists.
ANS: I would now like to tell you a short outline of something that is happening right now. Recently, a friend of mine who goes to the Catholic church phoned me and told me that a lady has been coming there and was talking to their priest. Her daughter was 25 years old, living with her dad (who left his wife), got upset with her mother (this lady) and left and got in a car accident, and she died. She left on bad terms with her mother. He told me that the lady said she has gone to the Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal and Lutheran churches...and has found no help in any of them. She is actually a Lutheran herself. She has gone from counsellor to counsellor who all tell her the same thing..."let go and move on"...and it has made her situation worse. The lady's sister has rejected her and they don't speak...her sister tells her that she should be over this already and that she should be in a psychiatric ward. She was a Bible believer and now finds that nothing in it makes sense to her anymore...she barrages me with questions about hell, satan, resurrection, etc.
The reason this friend of mine called me is because he knows of the experience that happened to me, and he asked if I would consider meeting her with him, and telling her my story because she is practically going crazy...she demands proof that her daughter lives and is safe and can't find any...she wants to know where heaven is and gets told things like "nobody knows that", "the Bible says it's up", etc.
She is 57 years old...I'm 45...it seems to me that it should be the other way around and this lady should be guiding ME. I told her what happened to me in detail, and I told her I can absolutely guarantee her that her daughter still lives on. The next that she said to me is this: "If that's true, how do I know that she is safe and happy?"
Now...what would you have had me tell her? That her daughter will "reap what she sowed" and is being punished but there's nothing she can do about that anyway so just accept it and be happy? Is that what I should have told her?
I have to admit, I never even hesitated on that question...I told her straight out..."there is no hell and there is NO punishment, period. I told her that her daughter will already have seen her life from the perspective of everyone she interacted with and that might have been painful initially, but, there is no punishment she is enduring right now beyond "becoming" everyone she interacted with and being able to forgive herself...because she is already forgiven...end of story. I told her to completely ignore and avoid anyone who tries to tell her anything different, and if she reads anything in any book that scares her into thinking her daughter is being punished right now, to throw that book in the fire because all it's good for is the heat that it will generate to warm her.
If I had told that lady that her daughter is now being punished in fire to burn off impurities she would have committed suicide. She is still hysterical now...and I have spoken with her a few times...always giving "proof" of her daughter's existence and that her daughter is SAFE and SECURE and that no one is inflicting any kind of punishment on her at all. Did I disobey the scriptures? Would the scriptures accept responsibility for her suicide if I had done that and she took her life? Would I have any responsibility if that happened?
You see, in the real world, "truth" had better be able to "salt" itself with fire...to see if it really is "truth" after all. This is part of the reason I've been asking about the things that I have. Would any of you have told her about her daughter's "punishment"? Would you accept responsibility for the result of your "truth"?
I also answered her question as to "where is heaven?" And I told her exactly what I thought...that "heaven" is right here. There are other dimensions that all overlap and interleaf with our physical dimension. I told her that this is where her daughter is right now...right "here" and in heaven at the same time. I also explained to her about the vibrational qualities of these dimensions, quantum physics, and did the best I could to put it all together so that she could understand it.
She asked me "can my daughter hear me?" I answered YES...my experience is such that I can tell you your daughter hears you...and sees you as well. Should I have told her about punishment instead?
Paul, unfortunately, when you leave this world, I think you're going to find out that your statement about judgement and enduring punishment whether one likes it or not is so far from reality you will wonder how you could ever have believed it in the first place.
PAUL: It contradicts what you believe it says.
ANS: No Paul...you seem to be unable to accept that love keeps no record of wrong doing....regardless of what the rest of the Bible says. When you die, Paul, you're going to see your life and become everyone you interacted with...and every deed, word, and thought...you are going to feel it's ripple through everyone...and it's going to hurt bad. But the only point of this will be this: "Take a look at yourself and see who you REALLY are." That will be the extent of your punishment...and when you realize you've been forgiven so easily it will amaze you and then you will REJOICE...and you'll be glad that you were wrong.
PAUL: Does this mean if you correct your kids and they hate you that bobson is now bad and evil?
ANS:If I were to "salt" my children with fire to "correct" them, I should be in jail. If I were to beat my children for any reason, I should be in jail. If I was any kind of a parent at all, I would tell my children: "what you're doing is going to cause you and other people problems" and then explain why. The next thing I should do if they insist on disregarding what I tell them is say: "well I guess you'll do whatever you think you should do and when the problems come to you then you'll have learned something hopefully." And then, I should tell them "when you've learned your lesson I'll be waiting here, and I'll still love you and forgive you." That's what a real parent does. I won't be waiting with big stick when they come back, I'll simply be glad they came back and learned not to do the same thing again.
JABCAT: For He needs to change me, not me attempt to change Him to fit my own thoughts and imaginations. Been there, done that, doesn't work. It's part of the broad path that leads to destruction.
ANS:With due respect James, when you understand love more clearly you won't need to worry about destruction because there's nothing that you could ever do that would bring about your destruction. The more you understand what love is the less you will need to think about "punishment"...because you won't need any kind of fear to keep you living in ways of love, and you won't fear "punishment" after you die because you'll realize that PERFECT love could never judge you and punish you...but you will have to relive your entire life and you WILL become everyone you interacted with..and when that happens I think you'll admit that was punishment enough.
And to expand on what I have just written...the next experience you have with the next person you encounter, before you speak, think, or act...ask yourself this: "How do I want this to look when "I" have to live it and become this person? How will it affect them and who else will it affect after that as well?"
That's a pretty safe way to navigate the world...and it's not based on fear either.
Quote from: Bobson on March 04, 2010, 05:33:18 AM
Paul, unfortunately, when you leave this world, I think you're going to find out that your statement about judgement and enduring punishment whether one likes it or not is so far from reality you will wonder how you could ever have believed it in the first place.
Unfortunatly? Really? What would be so unfortunate about it?
Quoteand it's going to hurt bad
But that is my point, your still applying what you think I believe the bible says from a religious point of view when I have not said anything in any detail concerning a horrid punishment that awaits, perhaps you can quote something I said to cause you to think I see the bibles words in that fashion so that I can clarify or explain something better.
If I say that you will be accountable for what you do and that the bible speaks of this in metaphorical terms, you have only agreed with me by saying the above. You say Love keeps no record of wrong doing yet I am going to hurt? I see that you imply that I beleive in some sort of torturous end after we die, but I have said nothing of the kind. I mean no offense, but you are only making the point I have made about asserting the religous aspect of biblical interpretation in your replies to me which will continue to cause yourself difficulty when dealing with it's words.
Quote
ANS:If I were to "salt" my children with fire to "correct" them, I should be in jail.
If I were to beat my children for any reason, I should be in jail. If I was any kind of a parent at all, I would tell my children: "what you're doing is going to cause you and other people problems" and then explain why. The next thing I should do if they insist on disregarding what I tell them is say: "well I guess you'll do whatever you think you should do and when the problems come to you then you'll have learned something hopefully." And then, I should tell them "when you've learned your lesson I'll be waiting here, and I'll still love you and forgive you." That's what a real parent does. I won't be waiting with big stick when they come back, I'll simply be glad they came back and learned not to do the same thing again.
Did I mention beatings? Where does that come from? A real parent can correct their children without having to be cruel.
Bobson, I was trying to be helpful. You said you were searching, but your last post doesn't sound like you are - at least as I thought you meant it when you said you were. Maybe I misunderstood.
As I said, our carnal mind is enmity against God. The scriptures clearly discuss punishment and destruction. The questions are, do we believe, and what do those scriptures mean. Here's one example "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." Mt. 7:13
Just as Paul said, I'm not saying God beats and tortures people endlessly, and I personally believe the Lake of Fire is spiritual. But I also believe the cleansing process is painful - described as "torment" (basanos) and that it's best to walk in this life humbly before our God.
If you don't really believe the scriptures, including encouraging people to throw the Bible away, that's it's worthless, then it's an example of what I've said in the past. People can basically believe and say anything they want, with no standard of measure, and then "anything goes"...there's also a scripture that talks about people "doing what's right in their own eyes". IMO, if we teach people New Age philosophies to "tickle their ears", then we're really not doing anyone any favors.
If you are truly seeking and open, I'll try to add to your search, be helpful and supportive. But I really have some question at this point if that's really where this is headed. I'm on my own journey, but trusting strictly subjective opinions and experiences over the Words of God, is in error - and struggling over them with each other, generally fruitless.
James.
Quote from: Bobson on March 04, 2010, 06:02:21 AM
And to expand on what I have just written...the next experience you have with the next person you encounter, before you speak, think, or act...ask yourself this: "How do I want this to look when "I" have to live it and become this person? How will it affect them and who else will it affect after that as well?"
That's a pretty safe way to navigate the world...and it's not based on fear either.
It's called empathy, and a good skill to acquire. It's part of God's character.
"empathy"1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.
Etymology: Greek
empatheia, literally,
passion, from empathēs emotional,
from em- +
pathos feelings, emotion — more at
pathos"pathos"Main Entry:
pa·thos Pronunciation: \ˈpā-ˌthäs, -ˌthȯs, -ˌthōs also ˈpa-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek,
suffering, experience, emotion, from paschein (aor. pathein) to experience, suffer; perhaps akin to Lithuanian kęsti to suffer
Date: 1591
1 : an element in experience or in artistic representation evoking pity or compassion
empathy, "em-pathos"--it means 'suffering [together] with.'
It's a quality that I don't think is possible without God, and one we learn through suffering. To make it through suffering without bitterness, hatred, or soul death, we need Christ, who is with us because he suffered- for- us.
To the extent that we are able to exhibit empathy towards another, I believe we are acting as proxy for Christ.
Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Amen Molly.
Quote from: Bobson on March 04, 2010, 05:33:18 AMNow...what would you have had me tell her? That her daughter will "reap what she sowed"
Quoteher daughter is being punished right now, to throw that book in the fire because all it's good for is the heat that it will generate to warm her.
QuoteIf I had told that lady that her daughter is now being punished in fire to burn off impurities she would have committed suicide.
This may work for the short term but not in the long term. It can't be ignored fire and "punishment" are mentioned in the Bible.
I think you should tell that woman what exactly fire and punishment is. Both are real but neither are what what we commonly mean by those words.
QuoteShe is still hysterical now...and I have spoken with her a few times...always giving "proof"
There are whole lists of happy love verses (on this forum)
QuoteShe asked me "can my daughter hear me?" I answered YES...my experience is such that I can tell you your daughter hears you...and sees you as well. Should I have told her about punishment instead?
Not right now. But I think a one sided view on the Bible only showing the love verses is a bad foundation that won't hold for long. The strong foundation is love verses with the explaination what the fire verses are really about.
:2c:
Fantastic post Tony. Good points. First we believe, then search and be open to revelation of the meanings. :thumbsup: Usually/often not what orthodox error says it means.
God's ways are for ultimate good, and we are in Loving Hands...but good fathers know what's best and sometimes spank to bring things where they need to be - spank, correct, guide - not beat or burn forever with literal fire (guilt, regret, remorse can be real torment and feel like fire [from experience]). But once the attention's gotten, the point is made, and the problem corrected, the (F)father dries the tears and gives a hug. :HeartThrob:
Quick side note - forgive me :bigGrin:. I just really discovered this in WW's sig. Check it out! :2thumbs:
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/
PAUL: Unfortunatly? Really? What would be so unfortunate about it?
ANS:My apologies Paul, it was a bad choice of a word by me. There is nothing unfortunate about that.
PAUL: But that is my point, your still applying what you think I believe the bible says from a religious point of view when I have not said anything in any detail concerning a horrid punishment that awaits, perhaps you can quote something I said to cause you to think I see the bibles words in that fashion so that I can clarify or explain something better.
ANS: Well, then maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, or it's one of the shortcomings of trying to communicate by way of message boards. When I hear the word "punishment", I am instantly reminded of the numerous threats, and their graphic description that are in the Bible...not to mention all of the killing.
PAUL: You say Love keeps no record of wrong doing yet I am going to hurt?
ANS:Perhaps another poor choice of words or the disadvantage of message boards...the "hurt" is not imposed on you...you simply feel the "hurt" because you fully understand the result of actions, words, and thoughts by becoming and feeling the effect that others felt. That's the difference for me between the "punishment" I hear about from some people, and what I am trying to say.
PAUL: Did I mention beatings? Where does that come from? A real parent can correct their children without having to be cruel.
ANS:True, and no, you did not mention beatings. But when you speak of punishment it takes me right back to the barbaric threats that ARE in the Bible...the talk of "stripes" and "burning" and "worms", etc.
JABCAT: But I also believe the cleansing process is painful - described as "torment" (basanos) and that it's best to walk in this life humbly before our God.
ANS:Perhaps you would like to tell this to the lady whose daughter has died? If you would be willing to do that, what makes you different from the fundamentalists who can tell her the same thing...with the main difference only being "forever" and "temporary"? Will you accept the responsibility for what happens when you tell her? Think about it this way...would you like to tell me of the terribly painful corrections my kind little mother and my dad are enduring? If so, why should I bow down to this God? Out of fear of getting the same thing?
JABCAT: People can basically believe and say anything they want, with no standard of measure, and then "anything goes"...there's also a scripture that talks about people "doing what's right in their own eyes".
ANS:The standard of measure is LOVE and not fear. Bowing down to a God out of fear is nothing but fear in action. If you understand love clearly, you will understand that love does not mean "anything goes"...and I have repeatedly said that I am NOT a new ager nor a moral relativist...I have never said that anything goes...it seems to me that you have not understood that threats, punishment, and pain are not necessary to behave, at least not for those who aren't motivated by some form of fear...pain might be necessary to YOU to behave, but not to everyone...it seems to me that anyone who understands love more clearly can't believe a God exists that requires suffering and pain to "correct" them...and they don't need threats, punishment and pain, to make them behave either.
As long as you continue to promote "pain" and "punishment" you will only provide "food" to those who need some fear to motivate them...but in reality fear is not a legitimate motivation...as far as I'm concerned "pain" and "punishment" is rejected as soon as someone realizes that no God could possibly be behind pain and punishment that they themselvs could not inflict on their own families for any reason. By your standard Jabcat, if I were you I would be afraid to die, because by your own admission you are in for a pretty painful process...are you looking forward to it?
JABCAT: But I really have some question at this point if that's really where this is headed. I'm on my own journey, but trusting strictly subjective opinions and experiences over the Words of God.
ANS:Jabcat, are you telling me that all the killing that was posted above, really are the words of a God? Do you honestly believe that? What would you do today if God told you to gather the Christians and wipe out an entire city or town? Would you do it? Because if you profess those words are the demands of a God, you won't attract or interest anyone who can't reconcile a killing God with their own heart...you will only attract and be of interest to others who are still motivated by the same fear and pain that you seem to be.
JABCAT: IMO, if we teach people New Age philosophies to "tickle their ears", then we're really not doing anyone any favors.
ANS:Where have I ever said anything that resembles new age philosophy, which basically really is "anything goes"? And on that note, I would have to ask you what favour you think you would be doing to the lady whose daughter died, when you tell her about how painful the "process" her daughter is going through right now?
JABCAT: If you are truly seeking and open, I'll try to add to your search, be helpful and supportive.
ANS:I am seeking, and I am open...but I'm not open to fear; I'm not open to a God who operates very much like human beings; I'm not open to a God who asks his followers to do people a favour and tell them their deceased loved ones are enduring a very painful process right now...I'm not interested in that God because I doubt very strongly he exists and I'm not going to risk the death of another person for the sake of a God that I seriously doubt exists.
JABCAT: But I really have some question at this point if that's really where this is headed.
ANS: Essentially I came here to find reasons to believe that the Christian God is truly the God that exists, because I would like that to be the case. I have found nice people here (and of course that includes you as well as Paul) but there hasn't been that much else to convince me that the Christian God exists because this God is always someone that requires some form of pain and suffering for one reason or another...the only difference is that for some it lasts forever and for others it lasts for an undetermined period of time...and I can't find a reason to believe a God exists that would require pain and suffering that I myself would not be able to inflict upon anyone for any reason.
And as far as the Bible goes, it's at least possible that the reason all those threats are present in it is because the people who lived thousands of years ago were so barbaric that they NEEDED horrific threats to keep them from doing things virtually unimaginable to people today, after all, how would you feel if the USA implemented crucifixion into their justice system? In any case, that only goes further to the point to indicate that at least some people don't need fear, threats, pain, and punishment to function...in fact, it is poisonous to them...and that seems to be why at least some of them reject the Christian God. And, regarding bowing down to God...I would also consider "feeding" his sheep in one way or another...without using fear, pain and suffering as the "feed".
MOLLY: It's a quality that I don't think is possible without God, and one we learn through suffering. To make it through suffering without bitterness, hatred, or soul death, we need Christ, who is with us because he suffered- for- us.
ANS:I take no offence to anything you have written, it's just that I know atheists who, in my opinion, are more empathetic in many cases than many Christians are...and they don't know Jesus Christ at all...at least not by the definition of "knowing" that many Christians ascribe to.
WHITEWINGS: It can't be ignored fire and "punishment" are mentioned in the Bible.
ANS:I know that Whitewings, however just because it's in the Bible does not validate it to me...regardless of whatever one thinks of the divinity of the Bible it has passed through the minds of people who were likely quite barbaric. If you can readily tell a mother who is hysterical over the death of her daughter that her daughter is enduring painful "correction" possibly in the form of fire, then you may want to expose yourself to a situation like the one I wrote about and see how easily those words come out of your mouth when you are confronted with the situation first hand...it's easy to say something while someone is sitting in front of their computer...but sometimes not so easy when the situation presents itself in front of your face. I assume you would think if I had told her that, that I would NOT then be responsible for her suicide? And neither would God?
WHITEWINGS: I think you should tell that woman what exactly fire and punishment is. Both are real but neither are what what we commonly mean by those words.
ANS:Well, I don't know what those words "really" mean then...and you can get thousands of different answers depending on who you ask...could it be that they're ALL wrong? Maybe.
WHITEWINGS: There are whole lists of happy love verses (on this forum)
ANS:But she's not looking for verses of love, she's looking for proof that her daughter exists and is safe, and she's now confronted with a God that she believed but who she sees as not answering her. And, on top of that, that God now scares her. That's why the guy called me, she is not able to accept philosophy and blind belief anymore.
WHITEWINGS: Not right now. But I think a one sided view on the Bible only showing the love verses is a bad foundation that won't hold for long. The strong foundation is love verses with the explaination what the fire verses are really about.
ANS:Respectfully, my friend, I would have to disagree. I think that there is enough fear going around these days...nobody needs anymore of it...except maybe those who need it in order to behave. I guess I don't understand what the "fire" verses are then, because I see a lot of threatening and intimidation in the Bible...maybe because people thousands of years ago needed it...but not everyone today does. As far as I'm concerned, when someone dies, they've gone home...and that's that. I'm not obligated to believe anyone is suffering or enduring pain just because it's in the Bible...sorry but that's the way I see it, I came here looking...and I found some nice people...however I still found a God that I can't believe exists...namely, the God of pain and punishment.
After all, what better way is there to get people to behave other than instilling fear of punishment and awesome pain in the afterlife? That's the only way to ultimately control someone...the problem is that so many people are not buying into it anymore, they don't believe this God exists, and it is creating atheists. I am honestly wondering if perhaps mainstream Christianity is going to eventually disappear...and I still think that would be sad because Jesus Christ's words have a lot to offer people, the problem is that Christians focus on pain, fear, and suffering instead of turning it around and explaining to people why LOVE is just as good a motivation to be kind as pain and suffering are...and that might be Christianity's downfall.
JABCAT: but good fathers know what's best and sometimes spank to bring things where they need to be.
ANS:James, no offence, but it is really sounding to me like it is a good thing that lady came to me, and not to you. You just can't seem to get past the whole "pain" thing...you make God sound like a human parent...which is part of what makes it all so unbelievable.
JABCAT: father dries the tears and gives a hug.
ANS: But the tears were caused, at least in part, by the pain that had to be endured which was imposed by the "good" father...I don't know about you James, but I was never spanked in my life...and I didn't turn out any worse than anyone else, I don't think. They never threatened with punishment I would have to endure for not obeying them either...yet I'm not telling anyone that "anything goes" despite that fact...neither am I any better than anyone else either. Speaking for myself, I don't think I would feel much like hugging father back, after the pain I just endured that he insisted was "justice". You speak of the God that created the universe as if he were a human being. James, I feel like you really are a sincere person...try explaining to people that perfect love is as good a reason to live ways of kindness, instead of explaining to them about the painful correction that they'll have to face...who knows, you might make a difference.
The bottom line regarding that lady, is that I told her what happened to me, which is impossible by the current standard of science. I explained to her that I was able to think, function, turn, etc., while I was not in that body. I told her the entire story of what happened to me...the darkness, the light, the brilliance of the "place", the people, the word for word conversation that I had with one of them, the return back, etc.
I tried to offer her some kind of proof of her daughter's continued existence, and I was successful at least to a point in that...and I assured her that her daughter was safe...and that's a fact...and it's also good news...it just seems that some people don't want the news to be THAT good. Everyone who dies is safe, it's just that for the extreme few (the Hitlers of the world), the "process" (which does not resemble fire nor inflicted punishment) will be much harder to endure initially. I struggle very much each day to try and not be judgemental, to not proselytize and add things to that experience for any reason, and I struggle each day to find a balance between "judging" and "loving"...and that's not easy to do sometimes. I try NOT to do things for the sake of getting a reward or some kind of special treatment because that is still selfish...I try to do things just because I WANT to do them, not because I think I'm entitling myself to a special reward for it.
For me, the new agers kind of love is a perversion of what real love would seem to be...and as far as Christians are concerned, I wish they could abandon all fear, uncertainty and painful punishment referred to as "correction"...they have no reason to live that way because it's not expected of them. Kindness, selflessness, caring for people, animals and all of creation is ASKED of people...look in the mirror each day and be honest with yourself about the day, acknowledge the mistakes, accept the forgiveness, and try to live a little better regarding these principles the next day...in other words, do the best you can. If I could only follow my own advice more often.
Incidentally, the entirety of what happened to me does NOT line up with new age thinking...in fact, it contradicted and didn't support the vast majority of what the new agers say. That being said, it also contradicted and didn't support what most Christians say as well. So, I doubt that neither new agers nor Christians would be very happy about the story. Maybe that's not such a bad thing.
One last thing...just to clarify, James, I agree with you when you speak of being humble...I think being humble is probably the greatest attribute that anyone can possess and cultivate...I just think that being humble also extends to other people, animals, and all creation...not just to God. Yes, to God, but to others as well. This reminds me of my little mother who fought cancer in her bones, breast, lungs, liver, and stomach...who is the most humble person I know, and also the kindest. She's not perfect but perfection is not expected...and besides, she's perfect to me...as is my dad. God bless you both, mother and dad, with wonderful love and light. :cloud9:
Quote from: Bobson on March 04, 2010, 02:23:39 PM
But when you speak of punishment it takes me right back to the barbaric threats that ARE in the Bible...the talk of "stripes" and "burning" and "worms", etc.
Your perception of biblical words is noted. I see the metaphor of the bible to my own life that directs that barbaric language to where it is intended to go.
That is all I have been saying, while talking with me, you simply retain the religious view that directs biblical words to the external shell of our flesh and emotions. Turn those same words towards the inner man to where they cut with a spiritual sword and they take on new meaning. You can maintain that those barbaric words are in the bible as a negative, but the view in which you argue against is not my view, it is what you wish to retain.
Bobson Wrote
QuotePerhaps you would like to tell this to the lady whose daughter has died? If you would be willing to do that, what makes you different from the fundamentalists who can tell her the same thing...with the main difference only being "forever" and "temporary"? Will you accept the responsibility for what happens when you tell her? Think about it this way...would you like to tell me of the terribly painful corrections my kind little mother and my dad are enduring? If so, why should I bow down to this God? Out of fear of getting the same thing?
I realize this was an answer to Jabcat but thought I would comment on it a bit.
You get no argument from me on the painstaking responsibility we can be faced with when we are put into a situation that could break someones emotions. But the point I am making is if the womans daughter had a destiny to face who she is and as your poor choice of words put it "Hurt" concerning that, then the issue with this woman really has nothing to do with trying to make someone face the truth.
It is often about rendering aid and comfort and if the time was right then maybe a discussion concering that type of thing will be appropriate.
I have heard Christians say some of the most distasteful things to someone in their time of grief. Whether they are true or not never has been the issue, sometimes people need to heal and sometimes we just need to be quiet and offer comfort.
The truth may be that we go through "something" (you can word it however you like) but, that truth isn't necessarily an appropriate responce to someone grieving.
The woman did not need to know anything concerning what her daughter may be going through, or had gone through, she needed assurance.
Many people in this life need assurance even for themselves a few of us in the religious world (in comparison to the majority) wants to send that message to other people and we try daily.
Bobson, I don't know that I really have a lot else to say right now. Paul's response was a good one, with which I agree. Love, kindness, and truth are not mutually exclusive. I don't know what you describe as a 'fundamentalist' exactly, but attempting to understand and obey the Spirit-revealed Words of God is the course I recommend. That does not exclude love, compassion, empathy, support, nor does it involve merciless, senseless torture. There is a rightly dividing that must occur, and falling into an extreme on either side, I personally discourage.
God's Spirit will visit you in due time, open your eyes and give you faith to truly believe - on this side or the other. There's a narrow path that leads to life and a broad path that leads to destruction (of all that is not of God and that cannot enter into the kingdom). Some experience the discipline now as a son, some later as a hireling, in whatever form it requires to bring them into the kingdom. God's the Judge, He's the Master, He knows what He's doing and needs to be done.
We could argue for an aion over our own subjective opinions. I choose to do not do that. In a joust between our carnal minds, nobody wins. It's a spiritual issue that begins with the new birth - "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved"; and "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."
It's the Words of God that will ultimately stand - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." Mathew 24:35. Those are the words of not just 'a god', but God Almighty. He's the Master. He speaks and the wind and waves obey. Yes, we should treat each other and His creation with respect - but not to the point of disrespecting the very One Who gives us each breath - by attempting to re-create Him in our image. Our role is to "...humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time.." I Peter 5:6
At some point I may post one more piece of my thoughts I'd put together earlier, and unless I really feel compelled to do so (which I may a time or two - but not just for the sake of futile struggling) I probably won't have a whole else to say other than as a moderator in this thread. At some point things will need to be held to the TM default setting of "the scriptures are reliable and to be treated with respect", and I may not be in the best position to ensure that if I'm posting a lot as a participant.
Respectful, honest, searching questions are encouraged. Otherwise, things will monitored for adherence to the forum guidelines.
James.
Quote from: Bobson on March 04, 2010, 02:23:39 PMI came here looking...and I found some nice people...however I still found a God that I can't believe exists...namely, the God of pain and punishment.
That's exactly why I wrote you should look up the meaning of words.
On this forum people use hell, punishment/correction, Lake of Fire, etc just as on a ET forum.
Partly because those words are in the Bible and partly because most/many on this forum has a (long) ET background.
But if you would read more on this forum (and main site) you would understand that when we use those words we assume the original defenitions not the paganised ET defentions. Perhaps you understood that we believe in a Catholic type purgatory with real fire.
For a more UR type of believe on fire see: This post (click here) (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4786.msg49819#msg49819)
Quote from: Bobson on Today at 07:23:39 AM
QuoteI came here looking...and I found some nice people...however I still found a God that I can't believe exists...namely, the God of pain and punishment.
There are some very bad people who do some very bad things, and he is a God of Justice. And, we all know what Justice is, although we might not be able to articulate it.
So I look for scripture on justice. But, he is also a God of mercy.
Psalm 89:14
Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
I think I'm going to respectfully withdraw from this thread because any further discussion is likely only to be banned. It started out OK with Whitewings, and it became very positive and uplifting when "SQ" and "Rosered" got involved and posted their comments, and Molly added useful considerations...however it has now spiralled downward to a defending of doctrine perhaps out of concern by some that the "message" being talked about here was just TOO good, and so I perhaps have been tricked by satan (that's a pretty dirty trick that God permitted to happen)...continuing all the way down to those who don't adhere to painful punishment and fire being potentially banned.
It seems that the message that everyone who dies is safe and those who seem to be left behind can feel secure about those they love, is still TOO good a message to be accepted by some...fear and pain have to prevail. The purpose of the life review is for educating, revealing, learning, understanding...not for damning.
In reality, there is no torment at all...and that message eliminates all fear...perfect love casts out fear and the fact that we fear only shows that we have not really learned to love...but it seems that religions need to hold onto fear and punishment in order to remain exclusive. Love does not, and never will, mean "anything goes"...it only means that to those who do not seem to have a sufficient understanding of love. To quote three well known words: "It is finished"...well, is it finished or not? If it really IS finished then why not move on to the next step of "love one another as I have loved you"? Why stay fixated on an event that is already finished? In my humble opinion, with the exception of Catholics I suppose, Christianity might be more appropriately termed "Paulianity". I am not a moral relativist (as I have stated numerous times) and I have never advocated worshipping the creation and not the creator, yet it is still implied that I am doing this. I am anti-fear because it's not necessary and causes suffering and division.
This message of salvation is still conditional and exclusive to Christians only, except that the act of joining that exclusive club is extended to the afterlife instead of just this world. In other words, you still need to be a Christian or else you'll be rejected by God until you become one, it's just that you can become a Christian in the afterlife as well as in this world...that seems to be the main difference between this board and hardcore ET fundamentalists...and that you'll only be tormented for awhile instead of forever.
In reality, there is no torment at all (unless you want there to be)...and that message eliminates all fear...perfect love casts out fear and the fact that we fear only shows that we have not really learned to love...but it seems that religious systems need to hold onto fear and punishment in order to retain their exclusive status.
To quote three well known words: "It is finished"...well, is it finished or not? If it really IS finished then why not move on to the next step of "love one another as I have loved you"? Why stay fixated on an event that is already finished? In my humble opinion, with the exception of Catholics I suppose, Christianity might be more appropriately termed "Paulianity".
I honestly hoped to learn more here, and I hoped at the same time to also bring a message of "don't worry, don't be afraid" to people who were afraid to die and afraid of "burning" because it's just not true...but the message seems to be one that is too good to be true.
I'll withdraw from this because it isn't useful to me...not because I have anything against Jesus Christ or people in general...it's because I don't think God is a Christian, nor a Hindu, nor a Muslim, nor a Jew, nor a Shaman...and I don't think God has to rely on human beings to preserve doctrine.
I also don't think that God has specially "chosen" people who are the apple of his eye, nor that God was the one who actually commanded the dashing to pieces against rocks of suckling infants in the OT...I think PEOPLE commanded that...I also find it beyond imagination that God is limited to accepting only those who profess the name of Jesus Christ. I also tend to find it beyond imagination that the creator of the universe can be exclusively contained in a book of any kind.
It's this kind of exclusivity that divides people into groups of the saved and unsaved...which turns into groups that are against other groups who are seen as being opposed to the "real" God, and then it's very easy to go to the next step of thinking "God is on our side" which turns into fighting...which is pretty much what's happening in a lot of the world right now.
It seems to me that anyone who doesn't completely sync with the exclusively correct club, is deemed "lost". Islam says the same thing...if you won't acknowledge Mohammed and become Muslim you will burn forever...Hindus and Tibetans all claim that they are right and everyone else is wrong....much the same with Buddhists...and all react with indignance when faced with something that challenges their way of thinking. These exclusive groups all have one thing in common...they divide instead of unite. Worshipping of, and calling on the name of Jesus Christ, has almost completely obliterated his teachings...if the entire world exclusively followed his teaching of love of others and forgiveness there would be peace.
I assume, James, that unless I call on Jesus Christ to save me I will be left in darkness or fire in the afterlife until I do, I'll have to endure my painful punishment after that as well...is that correct? The bottom line is that either way, it will be done out of fear and through punishment masquerading as "love" or "correction" or "justice" or something.
One thing I am very thankful for, is that I know this is not true, so I am someone who is not vulnerable to that fear, and to me, this seems to be why I am pretty much rejected by most Christians...I know that perfect love (which is what God is) does not include fear.
And, unless this post gets removed, I would like to say to anyone who might read this...don't be afraid...and don't be afraid to die because you don't have to be...and God is not going to torment you either...I may not know much else, but this I know is true...and it truly is GOOD news. If even one person reads those words, and finds they're able to rest better tonight knowing they and all those they love who have passed from this world are safe...then at least something will have been accomplished by this thread.
Don't take it out on us bobson just because you failed miserably at discrediting the bible. Better luck next time.
Quote from: Bobson on March 05, 2010, 01:45:31 PM
I am not a moral relativist (as I have stated numerous times) and I have never advocated worshipping the creation and not the creator, yet it is still implied that I am doing this. I am anti-fear because it's not necessary and causes suffering and division.
That seems to be the conflict your facing here though. One one hand you want to talk about no worries and there is no torment and "Hurt" was a poor choice of words that you mentioned to me. On the other hand you act as if people will be held accountable for their actions, but then play this sort of game trying to disguise what that really is.
From what you have written I can't see that it matters a hill of beans if you are a moral relativist or if you worship creation so what difference could it make if you are and do?
In fact, perhaps if you would slow down a bit and get off your bible bashing kick and ask questions rather than replying with all your assumptions loaded in both barrels you actually might get to see WHY some of us see how beautiful the biblical words are to us.
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
--1 Cor 13
"the perfect"
G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
Quote from: Bobson on March 05, 2010, 01:45:31 PMhowever it has now spiralled downward to a defending of doctrine
You sound suprised that people on a Biblical forum talk about a Bible...?
People asking questions and not always agreeing isn't "sprialing down"
You seems to hold to a certain type/sub-group of NDEs. The happy NDEs but there are also others.
I bought an NDE book a year ago but never read it until you started this thread. Lots of happy NDEs. But also not so happy NDEs. Pitty you want to ignore such NDEs.
I said it a few messages earlier, Paul said it a bit (to) direct, it would make a big difference when you know how we view certain words, verses and parables. I spoke a few people in private and all see (good) possibilties to align NDEs with the Bible. We just approach it with more care than you prefer.
:Peace: :Peace2:
Well, since it appears this thread may be winding down (and that's OK, because yes, there are limits to bashing the scriptures at TM, and IMO, we've about reached them) - I'll go ahead and post a part of some thoughts I'd put together several days ago. Again, honest questions and searching is encouraged - simply insistent, persistent proselytizing against the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ is not. At some point it only brings dischord. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7383.msg84791#msg84791
WW, I agree with your assessment, and add this; In what I understand as true, Biblical Ultimate Reconciliation, the scriptures are believed and trusted, yet there is an understanding there have been misconceptions, mistranslations, misunderstandings, and misinformation through the years that need to be reconsidered. Some of the same words and phrases are used (because they're in the Bible - more specifically THE ORIGINAL GREEK AND HEBREW as White Wings recently pointed out) - words like torment, fire, heaven, grace, love - but also other words stressed such as aion, age, gehenna, divine purification, etc. Regarding the "same words and phrases", there is a push to understand what those words really mean, not how orthodox religion has interpreted and taught them to mean; while with the "other words and phrases", there is an attempt to see the truths in the scriptures that have been hidden through the past 1500 years, and that if properly factored in and understood, altogether can make a HUGE difference in doctrine and approach.
Anyway, here's what I wrote specific to this thread;
"Without "thy Word (logos) is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path" (Ps. 119:105), the witness and direction of the Spirit within the Word - then we can wander off into our own vain imaginations (.."became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.." Romans 1:21); and "..in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, that they may be judged -- all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness." 2 Thes. 2:9-12 For ever, O LORD, your word (logos) is settled in heaven. Ps. 119:89 (both Jesus as God's living Word in the flesh, and God's Word in Scripture).
If I tell you I had a dream or a vision last night, and I am 100% certain it was real. I've never had any such experience before. My wife was in the room, and she could tell I was "somewhere else" for 10 minutes. In this vision a bright Light came to me, and I felt very warm and happy. Out of the Light a voice said, "you don't need to follow Jesus. There are many ways to me. The god is within you, seek and you will find it within yourself. One day you will bow and confess (realize) that you in fact are your own lord, and in need of no other. Jesus was an example of love, and love is all you truly need. You will reach a point of understanding that. So from this day forward, no longer pay any attention to the things in the Bible. You now have a higher level of truth, it is directly from Me and this truth will set you free. Now go, live as you want - I don't care. You will one day find the totality of existence within and OF yourself. Peace and love to you beyond measure. Be filled with joy.
"What do you do with that, what do you test it against? Or in your mind, maybe I'm right? How would you know?
Quote from: jabcat on March 05, 2010, 09:16:49 PM
"What do you do with that, what do you test it against? Or in your mind, maybe I'm right? How would you know?
First trying to align/test with what I already know.
If that doesn't work then then the choice is
a] Ignore the vision.
b] Ignore (parts of) the Bible.
If b then you are no longer a Christian. It would be like vegitarian that eats meat...
QuoteI'm right? How would you know?
Right and wrong are based on reference points.
Your question isn't about right or wrong but what reference point to use.
I doubt it's possibly to pick a reference point with only facts.
But I think one can come close with iteration....
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 05, 2010, 09:36:29 PM
iteration....
That's a pretty big word for me...I had to google it :laughing7:
Yep, good points. I understand there are still varying opinions, levels of understanding/interpretation/revelation, etc., but that we need the Spirit in the Word by which to judge and test things. "...to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ." Eph. 4:12-15
:thumbsup:
OK, I need to keep my word and mostly get out of this thread except to moderate. :mblush:
:2c:...sometimes we get a pretty narrow veiw of things,especially when the age old battle of good vs evil
is so upclose and personal.
....and that is exactly what it is..He designed this whoe good vs evil exercise for all His children to develope a gut level hatred for evil and heartfelt love for good.
...how many movies have you watched and rejoiced when the totaly evil villian was vanquinshed? The righteous indignation of the 'hero' that resulted in the putting down of the villian..and the foiling of all his evil plans.
well, the movie takes place on this earth...some vessels are given over to the evil roles,some to the good, some a mixture of good and evil......
the climax...good triumphs over evil[it's in the program of the divine play]...curtain call..look..those who played the evil roles
take off their costumes and attend the full cast play,afterwards.
It's been HIGH DRAMA ALL THE WAY..it's been hard to know who is truly evil and who is good...but we know this....
the evil at work during this divine drama is utterly destroyed...
all remove the costumes for the roles played...attend the banquet afterward and return to their homes. It's been a real educational expierance..this upclose and personal expierance/exercize in good vs evil
An article about NDEs by Gary: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ever-been-to-hell-and-back.html
"Tunnel vision, that of buying or selling the reproductive and creative imaginations of men."
peacemaker
NDE's can be very controversial. Theres some biological phenomena that occurs near death, something maybe with brain chemicals causing a vision of the afterlife. But if anything, NDE's should teach us that God does deliver us from Hell. In fact, according to some studies conducted by Dr. Ken Vincent, people who went through NDE's and did experience Hellish experiences usually came back believing in Universal Salvation and deliverance from Hell. Take Howard Storm for example. He still believes in unending punishment. But he had a near death experience as an atheist where he was dragged down to hell, and prayed to God for deliverance, and was rescued from Hell.
I'm a bit sketchy about this study, but apparently this Heart Surgeon Maurice Rawlings had nearly killed about four atheist patients during surgery and they claimed to have been plunged into hell. However they were all delivered and became Fundamentalists. I'm a bit sketchy about this whole account. First off, Anesthesia can cause one to have extreme burning sensations and think they have gone to hell. But if the doctor is doing serious heart surgeries, then he should have been fully aware of the side effects of Anesthesia. But then again he accidentally nearly killed many patients and then resuscitated them back to life. They end up coming back with some tale from Hell, just because they were in the wrong religion. However if I recall, many of the patients prayed for deliverance from this place. However the good doctor writes a couple books about this subject with some Fundamentalist agenda.
:cloud9: My grandmother and uncle had NDE's, when they had heart issues and died. My uncle said he heard the most beautiful choir he had ever heard, but didn't see them. Blessings...
Quote from: Molly on February 21, 2010, 10:16:15 PM
Sheila, is it possible the golden bowl is not the spirit itself but a container? The golden bowl and the pitcher are containers , the wheel at the cistern and the silver cord brings up the water from the well. This seems to be talking about ways to procure and carry water.
The woman at the well--
13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
--John 4
Some useful thought. We discussed about the silver cord recently. I wondered what the bowl was about ...
:cloud9: Bowl = grail = womb/soul; gold = full redemption, for your silver I'll give you gold.....He started me on a study of this right before I got swamped with hours.......all the furniture in the Most Holy place was made with gold. :HeartThrob: