TALK ABOUT THE HARD THINGS: NDE-OBE-VISIONS-BLIND PEOPLE SEE IN NDE

[Bobson]

Or maybe it's not about getting someone to "get it", but instead, leading by example...that might be the best Bible translation as well. Mother Teresa seems like a pretty good example, if people only realized just how significant she was...however they seem to be more interested in Princess Diana.

[Molly]

Wouldn't a lot of other things in the world be different if this principle of unconditional love, forgiveness and kindness, along with a different world view that EXCLUDES selfish thought, were taught?

Well, yes, it is a message that has been taught for 2000 years. 

I saw a movie, Flame and Citron [Flammen and Citronen], about two freedom fighters.  These are two selfless men trying to do the right thing for their country.


"The  movie is based on actual events and eye-witness accounts of two of the most active resistance fighters in the Holger Danske resistance group during World War II, Bent Faurschou-Hviid (known as Flame) and Jørgen Haagen Schmith (known as Citron), who both died during the war."
--Wikipedia


The story seems simple enough--the mission of the good guys [Danes] is to kill the bad guys [Nazi's].  The problem is, to make a long story short, every decision they make to kill or not to kill is wrong.  They kill the innocent and let the monsters go free--not because that is their intent, but because they simply cannot tell the difference--there are so many double agents and betrayers and thugs and so much deception floating around that men of good hearts cannot discern the hearts of their fellow men accurately.  So it's a just a mess.  And, such a waste, and two beautiful young men compromise themselves and end up dying for nothing.  This is the horror of war.

Why is it so easy for a small group of very bad guys to run the playground when they are so outnumbered by the others?

We have to cling to him, or we are lost.



Psalm 63:8
My soul clings to you; your right hand upholds me.

[Bobson]

Yes, I would agree with that. That's what my mother always taught me, and she tried to live it as well. My mother and dad have both left this world, and do I ever wish they would just come home again.

[Bobson]

HERE IS AN ARTICLE I FOUND TODAY:

When we die, there will be a review or "judgment" of our lives, and we will be astounded at the effect we had on others, and on God's Creation. As one woman from Long Island put it, she saw how every nice word or action created light that circled the world while each negativity did the opposite.

More than one such near-death witness has seen this "ripple" effect -- how what we do not only affects those with whom we interact, but often others, indirectly, down the line, like a stone thrown into a pond.

We are what we radiate.

Even in the physical, a kind word can set a chain-reaction of goodness while a rude remark could pass on from one person to the next until in the course of a day it reaches a person who is mentally unbalanced and may even commit a violent act, all rooted in that first unkind interaction.

When we die we may be responsible for more than we commonly think, and Easter is the time for self-examination. In a book by Dr. Jeffrey Long, a radiation oncologist who has studied more than a thousand near-death cases, a woman named Linda related that: "I saw everything from birth till then in fast motion.

"Also while this was happening I could feel the feelings of these events.

"I could feel any pain I gave out to others. I also felt the goodness I'd given out. God asked if I was happy with how things went, and I said yes. He asked me how I felt, and I said I was a little nervous. He explained that this was because all my life I felt this way and it is sort of why I didn't handle life properly.

That is precisely what those who have been declared dead but revive have reported.

Said another: "Everything I ever thought, did, said, hated, helped, did not help, should have helped, how mean I was (unintentionally also) to animals! Yes! Even the animals had had feelings. It was horrible. I fell on my face in shame. I saw how my acting, or not acting, rippled in effect towards other people and their lives. It wasn't until then that I understood how each little decision or choice affects the world. The sense of letting my Savior down was too real."

However: "Strangely, even during this," she said, "I felt a compassion, an acceptance of my limitations, by Jesus and the crowd of others."

[jabcat]

Just a quick note of clarification.  For one to believe the scriptures are reliable, trustworthy, God-breathed, does not say each translation and interpretation is inerrant or "infallable" - whatever that means.

My belief (and the default setting at TM) is that the scriptures are to be respected, and they are trustworthy - accurately translated, Spirit-revealed, and rightly divided.   :thumbsup:

[rosered]

Just a quick note of clarification.  For one to believe the scriptures are reliable, trustworthy, God-breathed, does not say each translation and interpretation is inerrant or "infallable" - whatever that means.

My belief (and the default setting at TM) is that the scriptures are to be respected, and they are trustworthy - accurately translated, Spirit-revealed, and rightly divided.   :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

  :HeartThrob:   Thanks James ...

[Paul Hazelwood]

I agree with James,  my personal opinion is that scripture provides enough information, but it does not contain everything there is to know.  Most references to the infallible word of God ARE referring to the interpretation someone is expressing.

For instance, if ET is the doctrine then the infallible word of God says ET is true and it is not to be questioned.

I maintain that the scriptures are the absolute truth spiritually, since no man has all truth, it is wrong for me to say that because I read scripture that all I believe is inerrant.


Otherwise, one could argue that Jesus is not the messiah since scripture is errant and untrustworthy.

[jabcat]

Thanks for your input rosie and Paul.

Through the night, I got worried that I mispoke about my belief regarding "infallable".  I've just never used that word, so I had to think about it some more  :laughing7:.

I think I'd have to add (to my own thoughts) that IF we had the originals that God breathed (God-breathed), I'd certainly have to say that's infallable AND inerrant.  Obviously though, what we have are translations.  However, when the oldest manuscripts are compared, they actually are incredibly agreeable and accurate with each other.  

Which brings me to the second thing I'd add to my own thoughts  :bigGrin:.  Even with all the translational issues, I still believe as you indicate Paul, the truths of God are there...He promised (don't remember the passage) that He would preserve His (Written) Word to us, so I believe He did.  So IMO, that's where the "study to show yourself approved..." - "it's the glory of God to conceal a matter and the honor of kings to SEARCH OUT a matter", etc. come into play - and as God veils and reveals to each one of us.    I also believe we're getting closer and closer to knowing what (VERY FEW) words and partial sentences may be spurrious, as wellas what more closely and accurately translated scriptures to the original languages actually are and look like (Young's, then the CLV, and now The Christian Bible, etc.).  So BASICALLY, ITS ESSENCE, THE CORE of THE MESSAGE, THE SPIRIT, WHAT HE WANTS US TO KNOW - even in the translations we now have, I believe IF Spirit-revealed to an individual, then the logos is actually infallable in its essence and message to us - because God "don't talk no trash"  :Sparkletooth:.  For whatever reasons, and He does have His reasons - He has veiled us and allowed us to put our slants on things to the point that we certainly do have plenty of confusion.  But IMO, that isn't a failure of God or His Words to us - it's part of His plan that will eventually lead exactly where He intends for it to go.

So bottom line, I meant no personal disrespect of the scriptures in anything I had to say, so wanted to clarify for my own conscience.  As with many things with the Lord, there's a whole lot to think about.  Thanks for hearing me out.   :thumbsup:

Anyway, back to the OP I guess.  I have some thoughts I may post later regarding some of the wild claims people make vs. what's our plumb line and (hint) "lamp unto our feet and light that guides our path" as we  hear and examine all these claims - attempting to "test the spirits to see if they're of God".

God is good, James.

[Bobson]

Hello Jabcat and Paul, since I am searching for answers myself...here are a few main things that make me have a very hard time with a lot of the Bible. That's not to say that I disrespect it or disrespect Jesus Christ, in fact, I would like to be able to know Jesus Christ a lot better than I do. Here are those things that I choke on, that I wish there were some way to get around:

1-So much of the Bible always seems to be threatening, and it seems to me that threatening is like poison to someone who is sensitive and has a heart.

2-Even what's written about Jesus Christ seems to be almost "bi-polar" or "schizophrenic"...meaning on one hand he says to forgive virtually without limit and the next time he's threatening to NOT forgive, judge you and throw you into a blazing ash can. It's this kind of thing that makes me wonder if he really said everything that's written in there.

3-It seems to contain all kinds of reasons for someone to be killed and in the OT God seems to be more than willing to kill or give orders to kill.

4-If someone were to tell the family of someone who had just died that their loved one suffering right now, that family would, in many cases (unless they're fundamentalists)would outright reject that God and deny his existence...in fact the statement may even cause another death, and I don't see how anything that's good could possibly justify this. When someone dies, if their family cares about them at all, they're looking for assurance, security, comfort and peace...not threats and horrible punishment for the one that they love.

5-As I understand it, there are over 20,000 different Christian "organizations" who all claim to be "right" and they all seem to be able to pull out the Bible and "prove" it to you. They can't all be right.

6-When Paul wirites that God is love, and then there is a definition of that love...to me this practically contradicts most of the rest of the Bible.

7-That Lucidfer translation changes everything at least as I see it..all of a sudden the fallen angel story seems to be invalid...so how did it get there in the first place?

8-If "satan" was the serpent in the garden and he was banished to "eat dust" from then on, then how is this dust eating snake supposed to be the same being that seems pretty friendly with God in the Job story?

These are the main things that I have a hard time dealing with.

[Bobson]

ABOUT THE KILLING I WAS REFERRING TO...HERE IS WHAT I MEAN...AND THIS DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT IT SEEMS A BIT LIKE PAUL ACTUALLY ENCOURAGED THE KILLING OF SOMEONE IN THE NT AS WELL:

      Verse    Number killed    Cumulative total
1    God drowns everyone of earth (except Noah and his family)    Genesis 7:23
30,000,000    30,000,000
2    God rains fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone.
Genesis 19:24
1,000    30,001,000
3    Lot's wife for looking back
Genesis 19:26
1    30,001,001
4    Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord"
Genesis 38:7, 1 Chronicles 2:3
1    30,001,002
5    Onan for spilling his seed
Genesis 38:10
1    30,001,003
6    A 7 year, world-wide famine
Genesis 41:25-54
70,000    30,071,003
7    7th Egyptian Plague: Hail
Exodus 9:25
300,000    30,371,003
8    God kills every Egyptian firstborn child.
Exodus 12:29-30
1,000,000    31,371,003
9    God drowns Egyptian army
Exodus 14:8-26
5000    31,376,003
10    God and Moses help Joshua kill the Amalekites
Exodus 17:13
1000    31,377,003
11    Israelites for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf
Exodus 32:27-28, 35
3000    31,380,003
12    God plagued the people because of the calf that Aaron made
Exodus 32:35
1000    31,381,003
13    Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord
Leviticus 10:1-3; Numbers 3:4, 26:61
2    31,381,005
14    A blasphemer
Leviticus 24:10-23
1    31,381,006
15    God burned people to death for complaining
Numbers 11:1
100    31,381,106
16    God sent "a very great plague" for complaining about the food.
Numbers 11:33
10,000    31,391,106
17    God killed ten scouts with a plague.
Numbers 14:35-36
10    31,391,116
18    A man who gathered firewood on the sabbath
Numbers 15:32-36
1    31,391,117
19    Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families)
Numbers 16:27
12    31,391,129
20    Burned to death for offering incense
Numbers 16:35
250    31,391,379
21    For complaining
Numbers 16:49
14,700    31,406,079
22    Massacre of the Aradites
Numbers 21:1-3
3,000    31,409,079
23    For complaining about the lack of food and water, God sent fiery serpents to bite the people.
Numbers 21:6
100    31,409,179
24    God delivers the Bashanites into Moses' hands and Moses kills them all
Numbers 21:34-35
2,000    31,411,179
25    Phinehas impales a mixed-race couple having sex
Numbers 25:6-8
2    31,411,181
26    Israelites for "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab"
Numbers 25:9
24,000    31,435,181
27    Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive)    Numbers 31:1-35
200,000    31,635,181
28    God kills the entire Israelite army
Deuteronomy 2:14-16
500,000    32,135,181
29    The slaughter of the Zamzummim, Horim, Avim, and the Caphtorim
Deuteronomy 2:21-22
10,000    32,145,181
30    God hardened the king of Heshbon's heart so that the Israelites could massacre his people. (included several cities)    Deuteronomy 2:33-34
3,000    32,148,181
31    All the men, women, and children in 60 cities
Deuteronomy 3:3-6
60,000    32,208,181
32    Massacre of Jericho
Joshua 6:21
1,000    32,209,181
33    Achan (and his his sons and daughters) for taking the accursed thing
Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26
5    32,209,186
34    The Ai Massacre
Joshua 8:1-25
12,000    32,221,186
35    God slaughters the Amorites
Joshua 10:10-11
5,000    32,226,186
36    Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees
Joshua 10:24-26
5    32,226,191
37    Massacre of 7 kingdoms
Joshua 10:28-42
7,000    32,233,191
38    The remaining kingdoms
Joshua 11:8-12
10,000    32,243,191
39    Massacre of the Anakim
Joshua 11:20-21
5,000    32,248,191
40    God delivers the Canaanites and Perizzites
Judges 1:4
10,000    32,258,191
41    The Jerusalem Massacre
Judges 1:8
1000    32,259,191
42    Ten Massacres, a wedding, and some God-proof iron chariots
Judges 1:9-25
10,000    32,269,191
43    The LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim
Judges 3:7-10
1000    32,270,191
44    Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife in the belly
Judges 3:15-22
1    32,270,192
45    God delivers 10,000 Moabites
Judges 3:28-29
10,000    32,280,192
46    Barak and God massacre the Canaanites
Judges 4:14
1,000    32,281,192
47    Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's head
Judges 4:18-25
1    32,281,193
48    God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other
Judges 7:22, 8:10
120,000    32,401,193
49    A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit
Judges 9:23-57
2001    32,403,194
50    The Ammonite massacre
Judges 11:29-33
20,000    32,423,194
51    Jephthah's daughter
Judges 11:34-39
1    32,423,195
52    The spirit of the Lord comes on Samson and he murders 30 men for their clothes
Judges 14:19
30    32,423,225
53    The Spirit of the Lord comes upon Samson and he kills 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass
Judges 15:14-15
1,000    32,424,225
54    Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism
Judges 16:27-30
3,000    32,427,225
55    A Holy Civil War
Judges 20:35-37
65,100    32,492,325
56    God kills Eli's sons
1 Samuel 2:25, 34; 4:11
2    32,492,327
57    God smote three cities with hemorrhoids in their secret parts
1 Samuel 5:1-12
3,000    32,495,327
58    For looking into the ark of the Lord
1 Samuel 6:19
50,070    32,545,397
59    The LORD thundered with a great thunder upon the Philistines
1 Samuel 7:10-11
1000    32,546,397
60    The Ammonite Massacre (and another God-inspired body part message)
1 Samuel 7:11-13
1000    32,547,397
61    Jonathan's very first slaughter (not counting the one before)
1 Samuel 14:12
20    32,547,417
62    God forces the Philistine soldiers to kill each other.
1 Samuel 14:20
1,000    32,548,417
63    The Amalekite Genocide
1 Samuel 15:2-3
10,000    32,558,417
64    Samuel hacks Agag to pieces before the Lord
1 Samuel 15:32-33
1    32,558,418
65    God delivers the Philistines.
1 Samuel 23:2-5
1,000    32,559,418
66    "The Lord smote Nabal."
1 Samuel 25:38
1    32,559,419
67    David spends the day killing Amalekites
1 Samuel 30:17
1000    32,560,419
68    God has the Philistines kill Israelite soldiers
1 Samuel 31:6, 1 Chronicles 10:6
100    32,560,519
69    Saul and his three sons
1 Samuel 31:6, 1 Chronicles 10:6
4    32,560,523
70    God delivers the Philistines to David (from the front)
2 Samuel 5:19
1,000    32,561,523
71    God delivers the Philistines to David (from behind)
2 Samuel 5:25
1,000    32,562,523
72    Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling
2 Samuel 6:6-7, 1 Chronicles 13:9-10
1    32,562,524
73    David and Bathsheba's baby boy
2 Samuel 12:14-18
1    32,562,525
74    God sent a three-year famine because of something Saul did.
2 Samuel 21:1
3000    32,565,525
75    Saul's two sons and five grandsons hung up before the Lord
2 Samuel 21:6-9
7    32,565,532
76    God kills 200,000 people because David did a census that God told him to do
2 Samuel 24:15, 1 Chronicles 21:14
200,000    32,765,532
77    A lion is sent by God to kill a prophet for believing another prophet's lie
1 Kings 13:1-24
1    32,765,533
78    Jeroboam's son
1 Kings 14:17
1    32,765,534
79    Jeroboams's familiy
1 Kings 15:29
10    32,765,544
80    Baasha's family and friends
1 Kings 16:11-12
20    32,765,564
81    The first God-assisted slaughter of the Syrians
1 Kings 20:28-29
10,000    32,775,564
82    God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a God of the hills
1 Kings 20:28-29
100,000    32,875,564
83    God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers
1 Kings 20:30
27,000    32,902,564
84    God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet
1 Kings 20:35-36
1    32,902,565
85    Ahab for not killing a captured king
1 Kings 20:42, 22:35
1    32,902,566
86    51 men are burned to death by God for asking Elijah to come down from his hill
2 Kings 1:10
51    32,902,617
87    Another 51 men are burned to death by God for asking Elijah to come down from his hill
2 Kings 1:12
51    32,902,668
88    Ahaziah is killed for asking the wrong god
2 Kings 1:2-4, 17; 2 Chronicles 22:7-9
1    32,902,669
89    God sent two bears to kill 42 children for making fun of Elisha's bald head
2 Kings 2:23-24
42    32,902,711
90    God delivered the Moabites
2 Kings 3:18-25
1000    32,903,711
91    God calls for a seven year famine.
2 Kings 8:1
7000    32,910,711
92    Jehoram
2 Kings 9:24
1    32,910,712
93    Jezebel
2 Kings 9:33-37
1    32,910,713
94    Ahab's family    2 Kings 10:16-17
10    32,910,723
95    God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners for not fearing him    2 Kings 17:25-26
10    32,910,733
96    Sleeping Assyrian soldiers    2 Kings 19:35; Isaiah 37:36
185,000    33,095,733
97    God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah    2 Chronicles 13:15-17
500,000    33,595,733
98    Jeroboam    2 Chronicles 13:20
1    33,595,734
99    "The Lord smote the Ethiopians."    2 Chronicles 14:9-14
1,000,000    34,595,734
100    God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out    2 Chronicles 21:14-19
1    34,595,735
101    Judean soldiers killed for forsaking God    2 Chronicles 28:6
120,000    34,715,735
102    God delivered the Israelites into the hand of the Chaldeans.    2 Chronicles 36:16-17
1000    34,716,735
103    God and Satan kill Job's children and servants    Job 1:1-19
60?
34,716,795
104    Ezekiel's wife    Ezekiel 24:15-18
1    34,716,796
105    Ananias and Sapphira    Acts 5:1-10
2    34,716,798
106    Herod    Acts 12:23
1    34,716,799

[Molly]

Bobson, the bottom line is that you don't have to 'know' everything, but do you trust God?

Job 13:15
Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

[Paul Hazelwood]

1-So much of the Bible always seems to be threatening, and it seems to me that threatening is like poison to someone who is sensitive and has a heart.

God is depicted in the bible as destroying the entire worlds population and leaving one worthy family.  Yes indeed Bobson, but what does it really mean?   Well, I know that God destroyed an entire civilization, it was within me,  it was drug abuse, and me and my family survived.   If you get that metaphor your well on your way to the truth of scripture.

2-Even what's written about Jesus Christ seems to be almost "bi-polar" or "schizophrenic"...meaning on one hand he says to forgive virtually without limit and the next time he's threatening to NOT forgive, judge you and throw you into a blazing ash can. It's this kind of thing that makes me wonder if he really said everything that's written in there.

It is a matter of translation.   From any point of view Bobson do you agree that anything goes?  If not anything goes and in some way there is accountability for what we do then you know full well that everyone reaps what they sow in some regaurd and some consequenses are just what you will have to endure till they are over no matter how much forgiveness exists.  In biblical terms forgiveness of sins is entirely different than reaping the consequenses of your actions.

3-It seems to contain all kinds of reasons for someone to be killed and in the OT God seems to be more than willing to kill or give orders to kill.

See my answer to 1

4-If someone were to tell the family of someone who had just died that their loved one suffering right now, that family would, in many cases (unless they're fundamentalists)would outright reject that God and deny his existence...in fact the statement may even cause another death, and I don't see how anything that's good could possibly justify this. When someone dies, if their family cares about them at all, they're looking for assurance, security, comfort and peace...not threats and horrible punishment for the one that they love.

Well, I have seen other belief system have just as much nonesense, I've had  heard of people afraid to cut down a tree because it might be their dead uncle reincarnated into one.   People say all kinds of crap that has nothing to do with whether the belief system or the bible actually was meant to convey such a message.

5-As I understand it, there are over 20,000 different Christian "organizations" who all claim to be "right" and they all seem to be able to pull out the Bible and "prove" it to you. They can't all be right.

No one has said they are, this has nothing to do with the scriptures being flawed.

6-When Paul wirites that God is love, and then there is a definition of that love...to me this practically contradicts most of the rest of the Bible.

It contradicts what you believe it says.

Gods Wrath has the aim to perfect something, which is love,  if you love your kids you correct them even if they may hate you when you do.   Does this mean if you correct your kids and they hate you that bobson is now bad and evil? 

7-That Lucidfer translation changes everything at least as I see it..all of a sudden the fallen angel story seems to be invalid...so how did it get there in the first place?

It is because people do not really care to learn truth, and there could be countless reasons, most Christians do not even realize that while calling Mormons a cult the greatest influence to the idea of "the fall"  "a war in heaven" "fallen angels" comes from the mormon bible.  LOL

8-If "satan" was the serpent in the garden and he was banished to "eat dust" from then on, then how is this dust eating snake supposed to be the same being that seems pretty friendly with God in the Job story?

Again translation and interpretation .  You get no argument from me on the ills of religion, but religion and the bible are actually mutually exclusive.

These are the main things that I have a hard time dealing with.

And you will continue to have problems with them as long as you argue about what religion says the bible says.

[jabcat]

A lot of good thoughts Paul, thanks.

Bobson, you probably won't (intellectually) like my answer.  It goes along with what Molly said.   Please think about it, let it dwell on you, let it sink in before automatically rejecting it.

There are many things in the scriptures I don't understand or that don't necessarily "set well" especially with my carnal mind and flesh.  Remember, our carnal/fleshly mind is enmity (against) God.  That's why we need the spiritual rebirth - it's miraculous, something God does, not me just "making up my mind to believe" something or knowing and understanding everything.

I have questioned and fought against God.  What He has taught me and continues to teach me is this;  trust He IS, that He is what He says He is, that He will let me know and understand more as it suits His purposes and as I'm ready for it, and then to humble myself before Him, accepting and bowing before anything and everything He says He is.  For He needs to change me, not me attempt to change Him to fit my own thoughts and imaginations.  Been there, done that, doesn't work.  It's part of the broad path that leads to destruction.

There are scriptures that talk of "what does the creation have to say about what the Creator decides to do", and "walk humbly before your God".  Then there are MANY promises about the outcome - all things working together for good, God redeeming/reconciling all His creation, Job's end result was better than where things began...


So, trust, humble myself before Him, bow and obey as He empowers.  The final result is up to Him.

James.

[Bobson]

The first thing I want to say, is that I appreciate not getting banned for posting some rather ill looking Biblical things...and the next thing I would like to say is that I appreciate that no one answered me in a hostile way. It says a lot about some of the people here, and it has not gone un-noticed by me. Now, I would like to say this:

PAUL: From any point of view Bobson do you agree that anything goes?  If not anything goes and in some way there is accountability for what we do then you know full well that everyone reaps what they sow in some regaurd and some consequenses are just what you will have to endure till they are over no matter how much forgiveness exists.

ANS: I would now like to tell you a short outline of something that is happening right now. Recently, a friend of mine who goes to the Catholic church phoned me and told me that a lady has been coming there and was talking to their priest. Her daughter was 25 years old, living with her dad (who left his wife), got upset with her mother (this lady) and left and got in a car accident, and she died. She left on bad terms with her mother. He told me that the lady said she has gone to the Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal and Lutheran churches...and has found no help in any of them. She is actually a Lutheran herself. She has gone from counsellor to counsellor who all tell her the same thing..."let go and move on"...and it has made her situation worse.  The lady's sister has rejected her and they don't speak...her sister tells her that she should be over this already and that she should be in a psychiatric ward. She was a Bible believer and now finds that nothing in it makes sense to her anymore...she barrages me with questions about hell, satan, resurrection, etc.

The reason this friend of mine called me is because he knows of the experience that happened to me, and he asked if I would consider meeting her with him, and telling her my story because she is practically going crazy...she demands proof that her daughter lives and is safe and can't find any...she wants to know where heaven is and gets told things like "nobody knows that", "the Bible says it's up", etc.

She is 57 years old...I'm 45...it seems to me that it should be the other way around and this lady should be guiding ME. I told her what happened to me in detail, and I told her I can absolutely guarantee her that her daughter still lives on. The next that she said to me is this: "If that's true, how do I know that she is safe and happy?"
Now...what would you have had me tell her? That her daughter will "reap what she sowed" and is being punished but there's nothing she can do about that anyway so just accept it and be happy? Is that what I should have told her?

I have to admit, I never even hesitated on that question...I told her straight out..."there is no hell and there is NO punishment, period. I told her that her daughter will already have seen her life from the perspective of everyone she interacted with and that might have been painful initially, but, there is no punishment she is enduring right now beyond "becoming" everyone she interacted with and being able to forgive herself...because she is already forgiven...end of story. I told her to completely ignore and avoid anyone who tries to tell her anything different, and if she reads anything in any book that scares her into thinking her daughter is being punished right now, to throw that book in the fire because all it's good for is the heat that it will generate to warm her.

If I had told that lady that her daughter is now being punished in fire to burn off impurities she would have committed suicide. She is still hysterical now...and I have spoken with her a few times...always giving "proof" of her daughter's existence and that her daughter is SAFE and SECURE and that no one is inflicting any kind of punishment on her at all. Did I disobey the scriptures? Would the scriptures accept responsibility for her suicide if I had done that and she took her life? Would I have any responsibility if that happened?

You see, in the real world, "truth" had better be able to "salt" itself with fire...to see if it really is "truth" after all. This is part of the reason I've been asking about the things that I have. Would any of you have told her about her daughter's "punishment"? Would you accept responsibility for the result of your "truth"?

I also answered her question as to "where is heaven?" And I told her exactly what I thought...that "heaven" is right here. There are other dimensions that all overlap and interleaf with our physical dimension. I told her that this is where her daughter is right now...right "here" and in heaven at the same time. I also explained to her about the vibrational qualities of these dimensions, quantum physics, and did the best I could to put it all together so that she could understand it.

She asked me "can my daughter hear me?" I answered YES...my experience is such that I can tell you your daughter hears you...and sees you as well. Should I have told her about punishment instead?

Paul, unfortunately, when you leave this world, I think you're going to find out that your statement about judgement and enduring punishment whether one likes it or not is so far from reality you will wonder how you could ever have believed it in the first place.

PAUL: It contradicts what you believe it says.

ANS: No Paul...you seem to be unable to accept that love keeps no record of wrong doing....regardless of what the rest of the Bible says. When you die, Paul, you're going to see your life and become everyone you interacted with...and every deed, word, and thought...you are going to feel it's ripple through everyone...and it's going to hurt bad. But the only point of this will be this: "Take a look at yourself and see who you REALLY are." That will be the extent of your punishment...and when you realize you've been forgiven so easily it will amaze you and then you will REJOICE...and you'll be glad that you were wrong.

PAUL: Does this mean if you correct your kids and they hate you that bobson is now bad and evil?

ANS:If I were to "salt" my children with fire to "correct" them, I should be in jail. If I were to beat my children for any reason, I should be in jail. If I was any kind of a parent at all, I would tell my children: "what you're doing is going to cause you and other people problems" and then explain why. The next thing I should do if they insist on disregarding what I tell them is say: "well I guess you'll do whatever you think you should do and when the problems come to you then you'll have learned something hopefully." And then, I should tell them "when you've learned your lesson I'll be waiting here, and I'll still love you and forgive you." That's what a real parent does. I won't be waiting with big stick when they come back, I'll simply be glad they came back and learned not to do the same thing again.

JABCAT: For He needs to change me, not me attempt to change Him to fit my own thoughts and imaginations.  Been there, done that, doesn't work.  It's part of the broad path that leads to destruction.

ANS:With due respect James, when you understand love more clearly you won't need to worry about destruction because there's nothing that you could ever do that would bring about your destruction. The more you understand what love is the less you will need to think about "punishment"...because you won't need any kind of fear to keep you living in ways of love, and you won't fear "punishment" after you die because you'll realize that PERFECT love could never judge you and punish you...but you will have to relive your entire life and you WILL become everyone you interacted with..and when that happens I think you'll admit that was punishment enough.

[Bobson]

And to expand on what I have just written...the next experience you have with the next person you encounter, before you speak, think, or act...ask yourself this: "How do I want this to look when "I" have to live it and become this person? How will it affect them and who else will it affect after that as well?"

That's a pretty safe way to navigate the world...and it's not based on fear either.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul, unfortunately, when you leave this world, I think you're going to find out that your statement about judgement and enduring punishment whether one likes it or not is so far from reality you will wonder how you could ever have believed it in the first place.

Unfortunatly?   Really?  What would be so unfortunate about it?

and it's going to hurt bad

But that is my point,  your still applying what you think I believe the bible says from a religious point of view when I have not said anything in any detail concerning a horrid punishment that awaits, perhaps you can quote something I said to cause you to think I see the bibles words in that fashion so that I can clarify or explain something better.

If I say that you will be accountable for what you do and that the bible speaks of this in metaphorical terms, you have only agreed with me by saying the above.   You say Love keeps no record of wrong doing yet I am going to hurt?  I see that you imply that I beleive in some sort of torturous end after we die, but I have said nothing of the kind.  I mean no offense, but you are only making the point I have made about asserting the religous aspect of biblical interpretation in your replies to me which will continue to cause yourself difficulty when dealing with it's words.

ANS:If I were to "salt" my children with fire to "correct" them, I should be in jail.
If I were to beat my children for any reason, I should be in jail. If I was any kind of a parent at all, I would tell my children: "what you're doing is going to cause you and other people problems" and then explain why. The next thing I should do if they insist on disregarding what I tell them is say: "well I guess you'll do whatever you think you should do and when the problems come to you then you'll have learned something hopefully." And then, I should tell them "when you've learned your lesson I'll be waiting here, and I'll still love you and forgive you." That's what a real parent does. I won't be waiting with big stick when they come back, I'll simply be glad they came back and learned not to do the same thing again.

Did I mention beatings?   Where does that come from?   A real parent can correct their children without having to be cruel. 

[jabcat]

Bobson, I was trying to be helpful.  You said you were searching, but your last post doesn't sound like you are - at least as I thought you meant it when you said you were.  Maybe I misunderstood.

As I said, our carnal mind is enmity against God.  The scriptures clearly discuss punishment and destruction.  The questions are, do we believe, and what do those scriptures mean.  Here's one example "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." Mt. 7:13

Just as Paul said, I'm not saying God beats and tortures people endlessly, and I personally believe the Lake of Fire is spiritual.  But I also believe the cleansing process is painful - described as "torment" (basanos) and that it's best to walk in this life humbly before our God.  

If you don't really believe the scriptures, including encouraging people to throw the Bible away, that's it's worthless, then it's an example of what I've said in the past.  People can basically believe and say anything they want, with no standard of measure, and then "anything goes"...there's also a scripture that talks about people "doing what's right in their own eyes".  IMO, if we teach people New Age philosophies to "tickle their ears", then we're really not doing anyone any favors.

If you are truly seeking and open, I'll try to add to your search, be helpful and supportive.  But I really have some question at this point if that's really where this is headed.  I'm on my own journey, but trusting strictly subjective opinions and experiences over the Words of God, is in error - and struggling over them with each other, generally fruitless.

James.

[Molly]

And to expand on what I have just written...the next experience you have with the next person you encounter, before you speak, think, or act...ask yourself this: "How do I want this to look when "I" have to live it and become this person? How will it affect them and who else will it affect after that as well?"

That's a pretty safe way to navigate the world...and it's not based on fear either.

It's called empathy, and a good skill to acquire.  It's part of God's character.

"empathy"

1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.

Etymology: Greek empatheia, literally, passion, from empathēs emotional, from em- + pathos feelings, emotion — more at pathos


"pathos"
Main Entry: pa·thos  
Pronunciation: \ˈpā-ˌthäs, -ˌthȯs, -ˌthōs also ˈpa-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek, suffering, experience, emotion, from paschein (aor. pathein) to experience, suffer; perhaps akin to Lithuanian kęsti to suffer
Date: 1591
1 : an element in experience or in artistic representation evoking pity or compassion




empathy, "em-pathos"--it means 'suffering [together] with.'

It's a quality that I don't think is possible without God, and one we learn through suffering.  To make it through suffering without bitterness, hatred, or soul death, we need Christ, who is with us because he suffered- for- us.

To the extent that we are able to exhibit empathy towards another, I believe we are acting as proxy for Christ.


Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

[jabcat]

Amen Molly.

[WhiteWings]

Now...what would you have had me tell her? That her daughter will "reap what she sowed"

her daughter is being punished right now, to throw that book in the fire because all it's good for is the heat that it will generate to warm her.

If I had told that lady that her daughter is now being punished in fire to burn off impurities she would have committed suicide.

This may work for the short term but not in the long term. It can't be ignored fire and "punishment" are mentioned in the Bible.
I think you should tell that woman what exactly fire and punishment is. Both are real but neither are what what we commonly mean by those words.

She is still hysterical now...and I have spoken with her a few times...always giving "proof"

There are whole lists of happy love verses (on this forum)

She asked me "can my daughter hear me?" I answered YES...my experience is such that I can tell you your daughter hears you...and sees you as well. Should I have told her about punishment instead?

Not right now. But I think a one sided view on the Bible only showing the love verses is a bad foundation that won't hold for long. The strong foundation is love verses with the explaination what the fire verses are really about.
:2c:

[jabcat]

Fantastic post Tony.  Good points.  First we believe, then search and be open to revelation of the meanings.   :thumbsup:  Usually/often not what orthodox error says it means.  

God's ways are for ultimate good, and we are in Loving Hands...but good fathers know what's best and sometimes spank to bring things where they need to be - spank, correct, guide - not beat or burn forever with literal fire (guilt, regret, remorse can be real torment and feel like fire [from experience]).  But once the attention's gotten, the point is made, and the problem corrected, the (F)father dries the tears and gives a hug.   :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Quick side note - forgive me  :bigGrin:.  I just really discovered this in WW's sig.  Check it out!   :2thumbs:

http://home.online.nl/spamfree/

[Bobson]

PAUL: Unfortunatly?   Really?  What would be so unfortunate about it?

ANS:My apologies Paul, it was a bad choice of a word by me. There is nothing unfortunate about that.

PAUL: But that is my point,  your still applying what you think I believe the bible says from a religious point of view when I have not said anything in any detail concerning a horrid punishment that awaits, perhaps you can quote something I said to cause you to think I see the bibles words in that fashion so that I can clarify or explain something better.

ANS: Well, then maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, or it's one of the shortcomings of trying to communicate by way of message boards. When I hear the word "punishment", I am instantly reminded of the numerous threats, and their graphic description that are in the Bible...not to mention all of the killing.

PAUL:  You say Love keeps no record of wrong doing yet I am going to hurt?

ANS:Perhaps another poor choice of words or the disadvantage of message boards...the "hurt" is not imposed on you...you simply feel the "hurt" because you fully understand the result of actions, words, and thoughts by becoming and feeling the effect that others felt. That's the difference for me between the "punishment" I hear about from some people, and what I am trying to say.

PAUL: Did I mention beatings?   Where does that come from?   A real parent can correct their children without having to be cruel.

ANS:True, and no, you did not mention beatings. But when you speak of punishment it takes me right back to the barbaric threats that ARE in the Bible...the talk of "stripes" and "burning" and "worms", etc.

JABCAT: But I also believe the cleansing process is painful - described as "torment" (basanos) and that it's best to walk in this life humbly before our God.

ANS:Perhaps you would like to tell this to the lady whose daughter has died? If you would be willing to do that, what makes you different from the fundamentalists who can tell her the same thing...with the main difference only being "forever" and "temporary"? Will you accept the responsibility for what happens when you tell her? Think about it this way...would you like to tell me of the terribly painful corrections my kind little mother and my dad are enduring? If so, why should I bow down to this God? Out of fear of getting the same thing?

JABCAT: People can basically believe and say anything they want, with no standard of measure, and then "anything goes"...there's also a scripture that talks about people "doing what's right in their own eyes".

ANS:The standard of measure is LOVE and not fear. Bowing down to a God out of fear is nothing but fear in action. If you understand love clearly, you will understand that love does not mean "anything goes"...and I have repeatedly said that I am NOT a new ager nor a moral relativist...I have never said that anything goes...it seems to me that you have not understood that threats, punishment, and pain are not necessary to behave, at least not for those who aren't motivated by some form of fear...pain might be necessary to YOU to behave, but not to everyone...it seems to me that anyone who understands love more clearly can't believe a God exists that requires suffering and pain to "correct" them...and they don't need threats, punishment and pain, to make them behave either.

As long as you continue to promote "pain" and "punishment" you will only provide "food" to those who need some fear to  motivate them...but in reality fear is not a legitimate motivation...as far as I'm concerned "pain" and "punishment" is rejected as soon as someone realizes that no God could possibly be behind pain and punishment that they themselvs could not inflict on their own families for any reason. By your standard Jabcat, if I were you I would be afraid to die, because by your own admission you are in for a pretty painful process...are you looking forward to it?

JABCAT: But I really have some question at this point if that's really where this is headed.  I'm on my own journey, but trusting strictly subjective opinions and experiences over the Words of God.

ANS:Jabcat, are you telling me that all the killing that was posted above, really are the words of a God? Do you honestly believe that? What would you do today if God told you to gather the Christians and wipe out an entire city or town? Would you do it? Because if you profess those words are the demands of a God, you won't attract or interest anyone who can't reconcile a killing God with their own heart...you will only attract and be of interest to others who are still motivated by the same fear and pain that you seem to be.

JABCAT: IMO, if we teach people New Age philosophies to "tickle their ears", then we're really not doing anyone any favors.

ANS:Where have I ever said anything that resembles new age philosophy, which basically really is "anything goes"? And on that note, I would have to ask you what favour you think you would be doing to the lady whose daughter died, when you tell her about how painful the "process" her daughter is going through right now?

JABCAT: If you are truly seeking and open, I'll try to add to your search, be helpful and supportive.

ANS:I am seeking, and I am open...but I'm not open to fear; I'm not open to a God who operates very much like human beings; I'm not open to a God who asks his followers to do people a favour and tell them their deceased loved ones are enduring a very painful process right now...I'm not interested in that God because I doubt very strongly he exists and I'm not going to risk the death of another person for the sake of a God that I seriously doubt exists.

JABCAT: But I really have some question at this point if that's really where this is headed.

ANS: Essentially I came here to find reasons to believe that the Christian God is truly the God that exists, because I would like that to be the case. I have found nice people here (and of course that includes you as well as Paul) but there hasn't been that much else to convince me that the Christian God exists because this God is always someone that requires some form of pain and suffering for one reason or another...the only difference is that for some it lasts forever and for others it lasts for an undetermined period of time...and I can't find a reason to believe a God exists that would require pain and suffering that I myself would not be able to inflict upon anyone for any reason.

And as far as the Bible goes, it's at least possible that the reason all those threats are present in it is because the people who lived thousands of years ago were so barbaric that they NEEDED horrific threats to keep them from doing things virtually unimaginable to people today, after all, how would you feel if the USA implemented crucifixion into their justice system? In any case, that only goes further to the point to indicate that at least some people don't need fear, threats, pain, and punishment to function...in fact, it is poisonous to them...and that seems to be why at least some of them reject the Christian God. And, regarding bowing down to God...I would also consider "feeding" his sheep in one way or another...without using fear, pain and suffering as the "feed".

MOLLY: It's a quality that I don't think is possible without God, and one we learn through suffering.  To make it through suffering without bitterness, hatred, or soul death, we need Christ, who is with us because he suffered- for- us.

ANS:I take no offence to anything you have written, it's just that I know atheists who, in my opinion, are more empathetic in many cases than many Christians are...and they don't know Jesus Christ at all...at least not by the definition of "knowing" that many Christians ascribe to.

WHITEWINGS: It can't be ignored fire and "punishment" are mentioned in the Bible.

ANS:I know that Whitewings, however just because it's in the Bible does not validate it to me...regardless of whatever one thinks of the divinity of the Bible it has passed through the minds of people who were likely quite barbaric. If you can readily tell a mother who is hysterical over the death of her daughter that her daughter is enduring painful "correction" possibly in the form of fire, then you may want to expose yourself to a situation like the one I wrote about and see how easily those words come out of your mouth when you are confronted with the situation first hand...it's easy to say something while someone is sitting in front of their computer...but sometimes not so easy when the situation presents itself in front of your face. I assume you would think if I had told her that, that I would NOT then be responsible for her suicide? And neither would God?

WHITEWINGS: I think you should tell that woman what exactly fire and punishment is. Both are real but neither are what what we commonly mean by those words.

ANS:Well, I don't know what those words "really" mean then...and you can get thousands of different answers depending on who you ask...could it be that they're ALL wrong? Maybe.

WHITEWINGS: There are whole lists of happy love verses (on this forum)

ANS:But she's not looking for verses of love, she's looking for proof that her daughter exists and is safe, and she's now confronted with a God that she believed but who she sees as not answering her. And, on top of that, that God now scares her. That's why the guy called me, she is not able to accept philosophy and blind belief anymore.

WHITEWINGS: Not right now. But I think a one sided view on the Bible only showing the love verses is a bad foundation that won't hold for long. The strong foundation is love verses with the explaination what the fire verses are really about.

ANS:Respectfully, my friend, I would have to disagree. I think that there is enough fear going around these days...nobody needs anymore of it...except maybe those who need it in order to behave. I guess I don't understand what the "fire" verses are then, because I see a lot of threatening and intimidation in the Bible...maybe because people thousands of years ago needed it...but not everyone today does. As far as I'm concerned, when someone dies, they've gone home...and that's that. I'm not obligated to believe anyone is suffering or enduring pain just because it's in the Bible...sorry but that's the way I see it, I came here looking...and I found some nice people...however I still found a God that I can't believe exists...namely, the God of pain and punishment.

After all, what better way is there to get people to behave other than instilling fear of punishment and awesome pain in the afterlife? That's the only way to ultimately control someone...the problem is that so many people are not buying into it anymore, they don't believe this God exists, and it is creating atheists. I am honestly wondering if perhaps mainstream Christianity is going to eventually disappear...and I still think that would be sad because Jesus Christ's words have a lot to offer people, the problem is that Christians focus on pain, fear, and suffering instead of turning it around and explaining to people why LOVE is just as good a motivation to be kind as pain and suffering are...and that might be Christianity's downfall.

JABCAT: but good fathers know what's best and sometimes spank to bring things where they need to be.

ANS:James, no offence, but it is really sounding to me like it is a good thing that lady came to me, and  not to you. You just can't seem to get past the whole "pain" thing...you make God sound like a human parent...which is part of what makes it all so unbelievable.

JABCAT: father dries the tears and gives a hug.

ANS: But the tears were caused, at least in part, by the pain that had to be endured which was imposed by the "good" father...I don't know about you James, but I was never spanked in my life...and I didn't turn out any worse than anyone else, I don't think. They  never threatened with punishment I would have to endure for not obeying them either...yet I'm not telling anyone that "anything goes" despite that fact...neither am I any better than anyone else either. Speaking for myself, I don't think I would feel much like hugging father back, after the pain I just endured that he insisted was "justice". You speak of the God that created the universe as if he were a human being. James, I feel like you really are a sincere person...try explaining to people that perfect love is as good a reason to live ways of kindness, instead of explaining to them about the painful correction that they'll have to face...who knows, you might make a difference.

[Bobson]

The bottom line regarding that lady, is that I told her what happened to me, which is impossible by the current standard of science. I explained to her that I was able to think, function, turn, etc., while I was not in that body. I told her the entire story of what happened to me...the darkness, the light, the brilliance of the "place", the people, the word for word conversation that I had with one of them, the return back, etc.

I tried to offer her some kind of proof of her daughter's continued existence, and I was successful at least to a point in that...and I assured her that her daughter was safe...and that's a fact...and it's also good news...it just seems that some people don't want the news to be THAT good. Everyone who dies is safe, it's just that for the extreme few (the Hitlers of the world), the "process" (which does not resemble fire nor inflicted punishment) will be much harder to endure initially. I struggle very much each day to try and not be judgemental, to not proselytize and add things to that experience for any reason, and I struggle each day to find a balance between "judging" and "loving"...and that's not easy to do sometimes. I try NOT to do things for the sake of getting a reward or some kind of special treatment because that is still selfish...I try to do things just because I WANT to do them, not because I think I'm entitling myself to a special reward for it.

For me, the new agers kind of love is a perversion of what real love would seem to be...and as far as Christians are concerned, I wish they could abandon all fear, uncertainty and painful punishment referred to as "correction"...they have no reason to live that way because it's not expected of them. Kindness, selflessness, caring for people, animals and all of creation is ASKED of people...look in the mirror each day and be honest with yourself about the day, acknowledge the mistakes, accept the forgiveness, and try to live a little better regarding these principles the next day...in other words, do the best you can. If I could only follow my own advice more often.

Incidentally, the entirety of what happened to me does NOT line up with new age thinking...in fact, it contradicted and didn't support the vast majority of what the new agers say. That being said, it also contradicted and didn't support what most Christians say as well. So,  I doubt that neither new agers nor Christians would be very happy about the story. Maybe that's not such a bad thing.

[Bobson]

One last thing...just to clarify, James, I agree with you when you speak of being humble...I think being humble is probably the greatest attribute that anyone can possess and cultivate...I just think that being humble also extends to other people, animals, and all creation...not just to God. Yes, to God, but to others as well. This reminds me of my little mother who fought cancer in her bones, breast, lungs, liver, and stomach...who is the most humble person I know, and also the kindest. She's not perfect but perfection is not expected...and besides, she's perfect to me...as is my dad. God bless you both, mother and dad, with wonderful love and light.  :cloud9: