TALK ABOUT THE HARD THINGS: NDE-OBE-VISIONS-BLIND PEOPLE SEE IN NDE

[rosered]

 

  to be more clear  Tony .. ha! 
Jhn 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you.

  how do we ''kill Christ / the annointing of the Father '' ? 

   Jhn 3:8 The wind blows where it listeth, and you hear   the sound thereof, but cannot not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

  so  when does Jesus/ salvation  come and go  in anyone ?

   the Lord  does this , we cannot  say who has  and  has not  this Spirit in them  but by   how they love  one another

  when they  hate divide  and  strike  in the name of God you sure  wonder eh?

  when the WORD OF GOD / SEED  of Christ / annoined of the Father 

  when born from above is not corruptible   but pure and holy
  this comes by faith hearing the Spirit of God
  as Jesus told Nicodemis  in John 3 above  verse





1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides/ remains  for ever. 
  than  we grow learn and  be taught what is  Spirit and Truth

   so  we all have to be careful not to speak against God and His work  in that sense  :mblush:   

   some shame is  bound to happen along the way   

  but that can be a good thing
  because   we are chastened of the Lord , we learn a better way to treat
one another 
:icon_flower:
 

[WhiteWings]

I am not disputing what you might think. 

That would be impossible because I have no strong opinion yet. Just a open mind.

The point I was making is that there is no lack of story telling when Bobson seems to suggest people are hesitant to tell their story.

Well if I would tell my NDE (if I had one) at office they would do a drug test  :laughing7:
What I'm trying to say that I think people often don't dare to speak about it. They know they would have made fun at. Just as they would do before their experience.

Maybe some are,  depending upon who they are around a lot.   But I have heard an abundance of stories and the vast majority of them are patterned to persuade others to a certain religious point of view.   Most often the story teller wants recognition and attention or that certainly is what they receive from it.

True. I'm sure remember me writting soemthing similar in various threads.

My path in churches included a lot of envy and doubt about my own faith and beliefs from listing to story after story of how people saw this and got that and their dramatic telling of the story made me wonder what was wrong with me that I had not saw that or experienced something similar.   Then combine that with supposed NDE's of people who then are warning everyone one they can that what they experienced was eternal hell and the doom of the unbeliever.

One of the main problems is that people always try to label things and put it in boxes.
But what if someone come with a NDE that doesn't fit in regular boxes. Atheist would put it in the loony bin box.
And religious people grab their satanic deception stamp. People often get reject afterwards.
In this thread people told about their NDEs or about their pets. All happy answers. Now imagine the answers on CARM...

So my point is what exactly is someone actually going to detemine from the research in that regaurd?

NDEs of heaven can't be verified directly. Only by numbers. There seem to 1000s of recorded NDEs of the ages with similar wording. Both religion and secular. That's a little bit of proof. But ofcourse you can say they are lies or fantasies by someone looking to sell books.
There are also NDEs with 'proof' like people that can give detailed reports of when they were under surgery.
Or teh woman that floated outside the hospital and saw a shoe on the ledge. The doctor found the shoe. Stories of that type. For those involved that would certainly be strong proof. But we haven't experienced it first hand so perhaps teh doctors lied. Or there was no suregery and doctors at all. The complete story is a fantasy.
But that's so for so many things in life. I have to believe there was a earhquake in Haiti while I never was in the country.

[SQ]

Thank you Bobson I really liked the story
This part stood out for me.
(I heard the voice of Christ vibrate through me as he said, "No, this heart condition of yours is not a cross from me for you to bear.  This heart condition is a challenge to help you grow and stay compassionate. Now, go back.")


It seems to me many of our beloved losses teach us to love.
I know for me since I lost my sweet dog Danny my heart has more love compassion and love for others.
I have changed a lot in this year Danny has been gone from me.
I believe God gives us challenges along the way to help us develop?

rosered I love your dogs name Axel our experiences were so similar.  :HeartThrob:
I wanted to mention Jesus is the only way it is all about him can't be no other way to get to God.
God is God of all people he owns the world and everything in it.

[Bobson]

PAUL: Then combine that with supposed NDE's of people who then are warning everyone one they can that what they experienced was eternal hell and the doom of the unbeliever.

ANS: Maybe I'm starting to understand why it seemed slightly "hostile" to the NDE thing here...I see people referring to "eternal damnation" and brimstone NDEs, and I didn't really understand it at first...maybe I do now. I don't know if I have ever seen a NDE like that, maybe some of you are just looking in different places than I am. I don't want to see them either, I don't want to put garbage like that into myself.

I've yet to see an NDE that threatened eternal damnation...but maybe I'm just looking in different places. What I have seen are a few NDEs where the alleged experiencer is PUSHING damnation...but when I look at the NDE there isn't anything in it that supports what they are saying. People start to proselytize about things...just like Howard Storm...one of the most profound NDEs on record. Now, he keeps talking about "the exquisite torments of hell" and yet in his NDE there is nothing that even resembles Christian "hell" and absolutely nothing about exquisite torments, nor anything about "eternal". I don't know why he does this...and I can't understand how he seems to be unaware of it  himself. In Storm's NDE, those angels of light told him "go back, make all the mistakes you want, mistakes are how you learn." I don't hear eternal damnation threatened there...yet for some reason, he prefers to talk about the "exquisite torments of hell"...it doesn't even come close to lining up. Maybe he thinks "hell" is a pre-requisite for being a Christian, I don't know. I'm sure if he ever went on a Christian TV show and said what I just wrote that those angels of light told him, they would say he's possessed by the devil and kick him out.

If an NDE doesn't contain some kind of verifiable information, as Whitewings puts it, "medical" NDEs...I don't pay much attention to it. Whitewings mentioned the "red shoe" and things like that...there is also the case of the "false teeth", blind people seeing, etc. Those are the ones that speak loudest, and certainly derail the skeptics.

I suppose it's somewhat different for me because it has happened to me and it made perfect sense, and was logical and orderly. I also think some fundamentalist Christians and Catholics really are desperate enough to lie about it...not to mention "crazies" like Bill Wiese, whose mind goes berserk with something (I don't even know what to call it) that doesn't even have Biblical support and he continues to promote it anyway.

Why not just stay away from people who make these bizarre claims of eternal damnation? At the best, if "thoughts become reality" and I'm pretty well convinced that they do, then all that is happening is these people who are obsessed with "hell" are making a "hell" for themselves...so let them...they'll eventually find out...although they might spend a l-o-n-g time in that self-created "hell" where they are surrounded by others who think they're there forever...until something causes them to want something different...and then their "eternal hell" will disappear. If people would just understand that in a world of "thought", as you "think" so you "are", they would understand things better and avoid their "hell"...no one is there to inflict "hell" on anyone...they're only doing it to themselves.

Be careful what you put into yourself, into your mind...because you just might get it. Just live, be nice, and expect good things when you die...and you'll probably get it.

[Bobson]

Whitewings, what would you, or anyone else respond to a Catholic priest who says "I believe in hell because it's logical. If there is a place where God is then there has to be someplace where he is not. Hell is real but God doesn't want anyone to go there."

Then that same Catholic priest, when the person he was talking to would not accept his and peppered him with questions and asked him why he should like such a vile God that gives no assurance of anything, questions the person as to the possibility that they are possessed by demons, and that's why he won't love this God?

What would you or anyone else reply to a priest like this?

I know it's a bit off subject, but I'm interested to see what anyone would say to this. I hope someone will reply, this has actually happened to someone who I know.

[WhiteWings]

In the very unlikely event.... :winkgrin:

If there is a place where God is then there has to be someplace where he is not.

God is in is whole creation. If something exists God is there.

Hell is real but God doesn't want anyone to go there."

I would say that I agree but would ask if his view on hell is that of the current or previous pope. The current one believes in flames. The other one in "cast in utter darkness" (like the NDEs)
I would also ask if why he thinks people can go against Gods will.

Then that same Catholic priest, when the person he was talking to would not accept his and peppered him with questions and asked him why he should like such a vile God that gives no assurance of anything, questions the person as to the possibility that they are possessed by demons, and that's why he won't love this God?

That's about opionions. And opionons are always right. They will wriggle and squirm with weird answers. And if they are completely stuck they will say the ways of God are not understood by mankind.

[WhiteWings]

To go off-topic even more. Ther surely are hardcore morons. But many aren't I think. I'm very new to religion and I took some noobie course. A preacher told discussed a few things each lesson. The weird think is it was a reformed church. But he used a Catholic Bible and liked Maccabees. That's apocryptica and that only used by RCC I think. Basicly every thing he told was about love, helping others and stuff. Two persons also present were studying theology. None of them believed in torture.
The preacher was very seriously looking into UR. Actually already was UR. Nasty as I am I asked why he always skipped hell because that's not a unimportant factor. The last lesson was about Revelation. No hell in there either....  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

I hadn't posted in this thread before.  I was asked by PM some specific questions about what I thought about NDEs, as well as a "side note" of maybe Jesus isn't the only way to the Father, because there's a scripture about he who loves knows God...also, that NDEs show perhaps a "learning process/salting with fire" for everyone...

I thought I'd include some of my responses as fits this thread, compiled from several PMs...

I hope my thoughts are helpful in some way...I'm not swearing I'm 100% right on everything, we're all learning...willingly or not  :bigGrin:.

-----------------

A lot to consider.

I think I believe in them, I'm just not sure I believe all of them that are reported.  This is a hard part of it, because I certainly don't know everything about the scriptures, there are multiple translations and thousands/millions of interpretations - however, I don't believe anything that's reported in a NDE that is "clearly" (according to my understanding) against what the scriptures say.
An example is a couple things I read in NDEs that come to mind.  One, that the person was told to go make all the mistakes they want, like it was no big deal - when the scriptures teach us about obedience,
doing the will of Father, etc.  Another, is where Ken Vincent reported "we don't judge here"...the scriptures clearly state there will be a judment, GWT judgment, God is the Judge, etc.

So that's a couple of thoughts on it - when I hear things I (at least mentally) sort of check it against my understanding of the scriptures - still plenty of room to learn and grow in all areas, my knowledge of NDEs AND the scriptures, so ongoing process.  ADDED - Some NDEs could even help me understand the scriptures better - but always this;  "...they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Acts 17:11

---------------------------------

[As far as perhaps] "Jesus is not the only way"....

First of all, He clearly says He is - that "no man comes to the Father but by Me"...also, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"...and others

Secondly, I believe there's a level of love that only comes through the Holy Spirit's indwelling and proceeding out of a person, a kind of love we're not capable of having in and of ourselves...so if anyone has that kind of love, then it's EVIDENCE they're saved...anyone who can really love with the love of Christ is of Christ.  I only personally have bits and pieces of that, that shows itself at times despite me.  In my own flesh, I'm not a very loving person.  My tendency is to be critical, judgmental, have anger flare-ups, etc....very fleshly...it's only by God's Spirit working through me that I can have any real love at all.  So no, I don't believe just because someone professes some sort of love, or appears to have some sort of ability to love, that automatically means they're a born again from above child of God.  I believe they/we must have gone through Jesus the Savior, as the Spirit draws each one, then He places that love (agape, perhaps?---unconditional - that I can't have without His help) in our heart.   It's when I want to be angry and unforgiving, that HE works in and through me, helping me to forgive and love even if I don't want to or am inclined to do so in myself - when I may want revenge, He convicts me of those sinful attitudes and empowers me to handle it some other way.  It's His work in us.

That's how I'd describe right now.
-----------------------

(Q of what context do I mean regarding the "he who loves knows God"/not just pulling the one scripture out to stand on its own, when so many other scriptures address the same topic - attempting to reconcile many scriptures)

The larger context is HUGE and many scriptures, 2 of which I mentioned...

No man comes to the Father but [I misquoted - it's actually] THROUGH ME, and the other one, "I am the Way"...

The context also involves that God is love, as you mention.  Yes He is...but that isn't some gooey Romance Novel or new age feeling...it carries many aspects to it...judgment, corrective discipline, healing, spanking, renewing...ultimately working out to mankind's good and the end result of LOVE....so I'm not ignoring that,, again, there's just a huge context - MANY scriptures and scriptural principles that must be considered...

For example, if I take the stance of isolating that one scripture - He who loves knows God - and try to make it mean "if someone is kind to their neighbor, then they're born from above", aka, a born again believer - no matter what else- if they don't even believe in God, believe that Mohammed is the savior and Jesus was just a good guy - but they "love" - it ignores too many other scriptures taken in context.  I'd have to ignore the 2 scriptures quoted above, along with a list of many others that say Jesus is THE WAY.  Jesus told Nicodemus not to marvel that He said one must be be born from above (spiritually re-born).  And that's what many are trying to do today, do away with the cross, saying "if only we can love, everything's OK".  But love encompasses much...including the cross, taking up our cross daily and following Him...by grace are we saved through faith...call upon the NAME of the Lord and you shall be saved - how can they call on Him in whom they have not heard, etc.

I have seen folks go the way of "is the cross really necessary?" - "it's about Father's love/Jesus is incidental", the Bible is not accurate, not true, etc.  I know 2 that were on these boards that are now professing agnostics/atheists.

The way of the cross leads home.

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[The saved in this lifetime are salted IN THIS LIFETIME - they are not hurt of the second death.  There is a company of believers that will rule and reign with Christ, serving as kings and priests - I believe, bringing the others of the nations in.  So as far as "steps"/progression in NDEs, there would be a different process/situation of correction for those not yet saved - whether it looked like the NDE experiences or not, not sure...probably not like EVERY ONE of them that's reported.]

---------------------------

IMO, that's what can be frightening about all these NDE reports...anyone can say anything they want.  AND, there is a matter of delusion that satan would very much like people to go after and AWAY from the Written Word.  I AM NOT saying none of it is true...but that's why I said I personally want to attempt to match up what I hear with what I read and "hear" from God through His Word and Spirit about it.  You know, there's also scripture that says those saved in this lifetime, the ecclesia, will rule and reign with Christ as kings and priests - they will not be hurt of the second death...so I believe a case could be made scripturally that not ALL are going through a corrective process...only those whose names are not (yet) written in the Book of Life...so let's say in NDEs there is that process, "steps"...I don't know if that's true as pictured in NDEs or not...but if so, I don't believe it would be for the ecclesia that are already redeemed, "...Savior of all men, especially of those believing" (I Tim. 4:10)

So, no, by saying that having a love that only comes through a relationship with Jesus is EVIDENCE that one knows God, I don't believe that's ignoring the scripture you referenced...it's taking in context of OTHER scriptures, trying to reconcile many scriptures with each other rather than pulling out one to stand on its own - apart from all the others that also say Jesus is the Way.  

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[Bobson]

JABCAT: I think I believe in them, I'm just not sure I believe all of them that are reported.

ANS: I agree. Thank you for your comments Jabcat, they were good...we're all learning here, I agree.

JABCAT:One, that the person was told to go make all the mistakes they want, like it was no big deal - when the scriptures teach us about obedience, doing the will of Father, etc.  Another, is where Ken Vincent reported "we don't judge here"...the scriptures clearly state there will be a judment, GWT judgment, God is the Judge, etc.
ANS: Could be nothing more than the people who wrote those scriptures (and it was people who wrote them) trying to express their understanding of "judgement"...it doesn't necessarily mean that what is written is absolutely 100% the way it's going to be. I happen to struggle with the concept of "punishment"...I think punishment is a human concept that people understand...we do it all the time...and I also think that when a person actually WANTS someone else to get the "punishment" that it may be a sign that THEY are the ones who really need the punishment...because they are actually DESIRING someone to "get justice" instead of trying to forgive and not wishing for any "justice" for anyone.

Put your belief to the test and try and tell the mother or dad of a person who has committed suicide is now being temporarily "punished" and see what happens...do this instead of telling that mother and dad that their child is safe in the arms of Love/God...and see what happens...see if that mother and dad will "like" Jesus Christ and want to know Him. As far as I'm concerned, people's beliefs should be able to stand up to the acid test in this world, and when the acid test results in ANOTHER suicide or death, there might be something wrong with the belief...not the person.

While I don't mean to underestimate the Bible, I also don't accept that everything written in it is inerrant and infallible either. I also don't think God is a person who is sitting on a throne....I also struggle with why Jesus Christ would find it so necessary to receive a pat on the back and a bent knee for what he did...that sounds like a human concept, not necessarily the concept of a God. Further, I have never seen an NDE where anyone claims a God is judging them...they are judging themselves...and let's face it when you become the other people you will definitely understand as plain as day, the damage you have caused...there will be no denying it...if it wasn't this way, how could anyone's verdict be anything other than "not guilty"?

Also, about the "mistakes"...well, I can think of something that I've learned from virtually every mistake I've made, can't you? If so, then maybe those mistakes have contributed to your afterlife more than you think. I've also heard the following from the NDE of a person who was clinically brain dead, with no heartbeat, for almost an hour: "you were sent away to school and we expected that you would spill your milk, but it's the manner in which you clean it up that gives us cause for pride." Interestingly, it is written that God IS love...and it's also written that love keeps no record of wrong doing...where does it say in Paul's description "love will only punish you severely for awhile." It's just my opinion, but I tend to think that many Christians have a somewhat poor understanding of "punishment" and "judgement". I probably should also make it clear that I am not a moral relativist...I'm certainly not a new ager. I do believe there is a standard, and that standard is LOVE...love for God, love for others...and it's pretty hard for me to love a God who would inflict awful punishment on anyone in my family. Dr. George Ritchie...a Christian at the time of his NDE...and who is a psychiatrist...wrote this: "He (Jesus Christ) asked me if I had learned to love my fellow man the same way that he unconditionally loved and accepted me. We have a God that is in the LOVING business, not the JUDGING business."

JABCAT: First of all, He clearly says He is - that "no man comes to the Father but by Me"...also, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"...and others"
ANS: That's assuming that He actually said that...it's possible, it's just that I am not entirely sure that Jesus Christ said every single word that it is written that he said...he could have, I'm just not sure. This is a line that fundamentalists use to insist that everyone who doesn't accept Jesus is going to hell...but then what about those Indians in the Americas in 1200 AD? What about the fact that it was 1600 years before China got any missionaries? Did they all go to hell? Did they get punished? There are also many other things written that imply that love is of God, and all who love know God. To tell you the truth, I'm somewhat more suspect of the gospel of John than I am of, say, Mark. To me, Jesus Christ sounds somewhat different in John than he does in the others.

JABCAT:  I believe they/we must have gone through Jesus the Savior, as the Spirit draws each one, then He places that love (agape, perhaps?---unconditional - that I can't have without His help) in our heart.

ANS:Perhaps, but most of the world has not "chosen" Jesus Christ...yet it seems to me that the vast majority understand at least some concept of love, to varying degrees. And I don't think the afterlife, Heaven, or whatever you want to call it, is an existence where things plateau and become stagnant...I think that when people leave this physical world they will continue to develop their understanding of love and God...and that the two are equal.

JABCAT: The context also involves that God is love, as you mention.  Yes He is...but that isn't some gooey Romance Novel or new age feeling...it carries many aspects to it...judgment, corrective discipline, healing, spanking, renewing...ultimately working out to mankind's good and the end result of LOVE....so I'm not ignoring that,, again, there's just a huge context - MANY scriptures and scriptural principles that must be considered...

ANS: No, I don't think it is some gooey romance novel. I also don't see how perfect love can be anything except unconditional and I don't see how unconditional love needs to spank someone, when the spanking will only make them angrier...I also doubt very much that any God is going to judge anyone, I think you're going to do it yourself and it will be far worse than any judgement a God would do. I don't know about anyone else here, but I know that I'm NOT looking forward to my own life review...are you?

JABCAT: AND, there is a matter of delusion that satan would very much like people to go after and AWAY from the Written Word.

ANS: Satan? Which "satan"? The Jews' "satan" or the Christian "devil"? The two seem to be different. That would really be something wonderful wouldn't it? God casting a devil to earth, who will trick and deceive us and then God will either punish us or damn us for falling for this "devil's" tricks, including the worst "trick" of all, which is playing a HUGE trick on us in the afterlife on top of it all, by way of NDEs...a God like that doesn't make much sense to me.

Please explain. Does the existence of Satan somehow justify G-d torturing people for falling for Satan's tricks? I don't see Satan as a nearly omniscient/omnipotent being as many Christians do, giving him the power to be everywhere at once and whispering into our deepest thoughts.

1.) Angels supposedly don't have "free will" yet some angels revolted. This doesn't make any sense to me. One can't have it both ways. If Satan and the fallen angels were created to fall, it's all a put up job and they ultimately are not any more responsible for their fallen state than we are. God set the whole thing up. Then, He condemns them to eternal torment or punishment for doing what they were created to do. Calvinists don't have a problem with that logic. But, I do.

2.) God created a creature as powerful as Satan and turned him loose on the universe. Either God didn't know the risk He was taking or He did know and decided to create Satan anyway. Presumably God is still more powerful than Satan and could take him out any time He likes. Yet, He allows Satan to continue to suck His children into Hell or some kind of awful punishment to correct us. If Satan is truly an adversary, why doesn't God stop him? This is a really high stakes game.

3.) If Satan was created to be the "Adversary", God has given us an "Adversary" that is infinitely more powerful than we are, yet we are responsible for resisting him. He has eons of experience and the power to literally get inside of our heads. What chance do we have? How could we possibly be responsible to face up to such a being?
For me though rather to reject a belief in G-d (whose existence is quite evident and I cannot deny) I had to attempt to find out what G-d is really like.
I don't believe God created an adversary that is really "at war" with God. God could take out any adversary He wants any time He wants. I don't believe God put His children's eternal destiny in the hands of someone who could possibly lure them away eternally. I don't believe that God was surprised by any revolt in heaven.
Yes, Jesus spoke of a "Satan". But, the Buddha spoke of Mara, a personification of his temptations. Jesus taught in parables. Just because He spoke of Satan does not mean He necessarily believed in such a literal being.

Bottom line, I don't discount the possibility there may be a Satan-like creature though I highly, highly doubt it. If such a creature exists, I don't believe he's nearly as powerful as many Christians think he is.

I really don't speculate on the eternal fate of a creature I think probably doesn't exist. If Satan exists and G-d is omnipotent/omniscient then I hold G-d responsible for Satan's behavior because Satan is doing what he was created to do. If forced to speculate on his fate, I would go with the church fathers who thought Satan and the demons would also be "saved".

Some say angels have no free will. If we accept that, then obviously, G-d is responsible for their behaviour because they can only do what they are programmed to do. When God created Satan and the fallen angels, He foreknew what they would do. I don't know how one can justly hold a being with no free will responsible for anything.

Let's assume Satan and the fallen angels do have free will. Could they possibly be so incredibly evil without a semblance of good left in them if God didn't create them defective in the first place? And, these evil almost omnipotent and omnipresent being(s) are left to suck G-d's own children into the eternal fiery pits of hell or punishment? That's quite a price to pay for the "gift" of "free will". What type of parent would leave such a creature roaming about to destroy His children so they would have to punished severely?

Origen was one who professed universal salvation...I recently read one of the reason why...because he couldn't fathom a "devil" that was capable of causing even one to be lost because that would mean this "devil" was successful, and he reasoned that it is impossible for this "devil" to succeed in any way against God.

Jabcat, you had stated some of the qualities about yourself that you didn't care for very much...wouldn't that mean that you are learning from your mistakes? Will God punish you for the mistakes or embrace you for cleaning them up?

[Bobson]

FOR CONSIDERATION...THE QUESTIONS THAT HOWARD STORM ASKED THOSE ANGELS OF LIGHT, AND THE ANSWERS THEY GAVE HIM:


Howard Storm was an atheist and a nasty man, to tell it in his own words. But during time spent with Jesus after dying in a hospital in Paris, France, Storm became a devout believer and upon returning to the living he became a Christian minister. He received many predictions about the world while in the afterlife, and several are detailed here.


Storm put several question to the angels when he was on the other side, in this dialogue Storm claims that Jesus Christ was present:

•   "Where did the creation come from?"" There was never time, space or matter before God. God created universes which become procreative. There are countless intelligent beings in the universe.
•   "Who manages all of this?" The angels are part of the organization of the physical universe. They cause events to happen and tend to the garden, so to speak.
•   "What is reality?" Much that has been called supernatural is only that which we cannot fathom. The religious mysteries can direct us to the understanding of the true nature of reality.
•   "What is the best religion?" The religion that brings one closest to God. There is no ONE religion.
•   "What is atheism?" As it is impossible to believe in nothing, atheism does not exist.
•   "Is Jesus the Son of God?" Yes.
•   "Were the things written about Jesus true?" Yes, and even more so. All the books in the world could not contain all that he has done.

Predictions
In 1985, during his 'death' experience, Storm was told that God wants an end to all wars and the Two World Wars were not God's wishes, but rather He allowed the people who were bent on war to experience it. If people are so intent on killing sometimes God allows it. However, Storm was told that there will be no other World War. There could possibly be a nuclear accident but not a World War.

He was also told that the Cold War would end in a couple of years, which he did not believe as there were so many nuclear weapons floating around. But he was assured that this would happen.

Asked if the United States would be the leader in the coming change, Howard was told that the United States had been given much and much was expected in return. It must change its greedy attitude or the country will collapse economically and the result will be civil unrest. It is up to the United States to become a model of goodness and generosity to the world


At one point, Howard simply asks, "Is there life on other worlds?" The angels' responses are both visual and linguistic. In addition to their telepathic and extraordinarily clear communication, "the universe is FULL of LIFE!", they initiate what he describes as holographic tableau, a procession of intelligent life forms beginning with those that resemble the human form; then with increasing numbers, the forms are less and less humanoid in appearance, as the angels apparently impress their original point: the Universe is full of sentient life. Howard gets the point, so his next query becomes, "If there is all this life in the Universe, then why aren't we aware of it here on our own planet?"

Before I continue with their most disturbing and ultimately enlightening answer, I digress here to add a few comments made elsewhere. The angels themselves when first appearing to him as these gorgeous spheres of iridescent radiance, sense his apprehension as he is overwhelmed by their glory. Their first communication to him, is to ask him if they need to 'turn down their glow' as it were, and appear in their human form, or 'any other form that you need to be comfortable with us'! In addition, Howard later asked them if they (the angels) had ever been human, and they assured him that they had been human as well as also from among the variety of life forms that had paraded before him in the holographic procession described above. I will leave the reader to ponder on one's own the wondrous implications of these revelations!

Returning to his question regarding the apparent lack of 'proof or evidence' of other intelligent life in the universe, what he was told and shown I found quite interesting. They told him that the Universe is teaming with life- not only in the physical world but even in other dimensions. The angels told of countless worlds they 'shepherded'. When asked about the lack of 'evidence' in our world of life from other worlds, he was told that we are visited, and by a number of different groups of beings, but that they must be very careful in their contact with us, because of our immaturity, naughtiness and to put it bluntly, sinfulness. Later in conversation Howard made reference to seeing images of worlds where beings lived in perfect harmony with one another and the creation, having 'grown up' and matured spiritually to the place where innate spiritual gifts could be unfolded where collectively a world's inhabitants steered the weather patterns, enabling them to create a world of Paradise.

"I asked Jesus: Has he been to another world besides my world? He said that he had been to every world in every time and space. He said that he had brought the revelation of God to all intelligent beings. Some beings had been as stubborn as we were to accept him, and many more worlds had gladly accepted him. He said he would back to our world in good time when we were ready to accept him."

Elaborating on the response, Howard said that on the worlds where the inhabitants had been following the Christ in their hearts all along, the appearance in their form of the Messenger, then became one of welcome and recognition, as if to say, 'we have known you all along'. It was on these worlds that Howard describes people in the physical living a life experience that for us on Earth, would be Heaven: no war, no poverty, no disease; everyone living up to their own capacity for growth, wisdom and love; no one 'left behind', everyone embraced, loved and loving!

Howard makes no apology in identifying the Being who embraces him, who saves him, as Jesus the Christ. That affirmed, I must add that Howard in no way identifies that holy, loving Being with anything other than the One who has come here on behalf of EVERYONE, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. In my own experience, my meditation on Howard's journey has been profoundly healing for my own wounds at the hands of religious zealots. The Christ who reaches out to rescue the all-too-human Storm, has likewise crossed every racial, religious and yes, time and space barrier to bring us the Good News that we are not alone; God is with us, and we have brothers and sisters scattered throughout the heavens both visible and invisible!

[WhiteWings]

An example is a couple things I read in NDEs that come to mind.  One, that the person was told to go make all the mistakes they want, like it was no big deal - when the scriptures teach us about obedience,

For me there is a difference between disobedience and mistakes. Mistakes are wrong by accident. Disobedience is wrong on purpose.

doing the will of Father, etc.  Another, is where Ken Vincent reported "we don't judge here"...the scriptures clearly state there will be a judment, GWT judgment, God is the Judge, etc.

Fully agreed but if you look up what judging means it has a whole different meanings than in an earthly court.
So I think the exact wording may be very important.

So that's a couple of thoughts on it - when I hear things I (at least mentally) sort of check it against my understanding of the scriptures - still plenty of room to learn and grow in all areas, my knowledge of NDEs AND the scriptures, so ongoing process.  ADDED - Some NDEs could even help me understand the scriptures better - but always this;  "...they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Acts 17:11

I agree but at the same time disagree. Lets take the writing of Moses as the basis. At that time his writings were the whole Bible. New things got added over time. Not contradicting the early writings but adding. Addings that not always can be verified (because they reveal new bits in God plan).  But many many verses after the writing of Moses got added and made our "complete" Bible.
IF NDEs come from God and are real can we ignore them? Did Jesus every say "The Bible is now complete."
I know lots and lots of lies are floating around. But my guess is that during the very first and very last verse in you Bible the situation was not different.
So how did they filter the truth from the lies?

---------------------------------

[As far as perhaps] "Jesus is not the only way"....

No man comes to the Father but [I misquoted - it's actually] THROUGH ME, and the other one, "I am the Way"...

But what is "through"? The person Jesus or His teachings of love (love=the greatst command)

For example, if I take the stance of isolating that one scripture - He who loves knows God - and try to make it mean "if someone is kind to their neighbor, then they're born from above", aka, a born again believer - no matter what else- if they don't even believe in God, believe that Mohammed is the savior and Jesus was just a good guy - but they "love" - it ignores too many other scriptures taken in context.

There are many shades of love. Similar there are many shades of knowing Jesus. As a moslim. They all know Jesus, Noah, Moses, etc. They also believe those were very important/worthy persons. But not as high as their mohammed.
So they know Jesus. But not at the correct level.

IMO, that's what can be frightening about all these NDE reports...anyone can say anything they want.  AND, there is a matter of delusion that satan would very much like people to go after and AWAY from the Written Word.

Agreed. But see what I wrote about Moses earlier in this post.

[Bobson]

I don't know how popular this will be here but I don't mean to offend anyone. I just think that it sounds very much like human concepts regarding things like:

1-Jesus must be acknowledged and worshipped
2-You can't really love unless you know Jesus
3-Jesus will be the judge
4-Those who acknowledge Jesus will receive a special reward...like eternal life, blissful life in heaven, etc.

These all speak to me of PEOPLE doing this:

1-Persuade others to acknowledge only Jesus
2-Using threats to get people to acknowledge only Jesus
3-Passing judgment on people's "love", which is clearly forbidden by Jesus Christ, to persuade them to acknowledge Jesus
4-Using a human concept of rewards for things and punishments for things...if you only acknowledge or love Jesus to get a special reward or treatment, what kind of love is that?

But as I said, I do not accept that the Bible is 100% inerrant and infallible, and in many cases it speaks to me of people insisting that Jesus must be acknowledged when I can't fathom why a God would place so much importance on such a human concept.

I'm just not sure that everything in the Bible is perfect and 100% true, I think at least some of it is people's attempt to explain their current understanding of things which are not necessarily 100% accurate. In fact, I think much of Jesus Christ has been lost...the Jesus Christ that spoke of not judging, love for God and others, has been hijacked by people who want to worship him rather than do what he said...hijacked by the Jesus who promises big time punishment...in some ways, when I read what he allegedly said, it almost sounds like he is two different people. In other words, God made man in his image (spirit) but then man went ahead and made God is man's own image...a man on a throne in the sky who is jealous, incessantly angry, vengeful, willing to kill, willing to give orders to kill...and then we come to that little phrase "God IS love", and then since some people feel that the Bible is totally complete, inerrant and infallible, they have to try to reconcile this "LOVE" with everything else that's in it that doesn't sound like love at all...in order to keep the Bible 100% true...and that's how we end up with a schizophrenic God.

[Bobson]

In other words, a being (God) IS the personification of ultimate love which holds no jealousy, not self seeking, keeps no record of wrong doing, delights in good...somehow has to be reconciled with the other God found in the Bible...the one of punishment and "justice"...and that's why some people are so scared of NDEs, because they so often talk about a love that is similar to what Paul wrote about...unconditional...the very personification of love itself...and they can't figure that  out because they think "why isn't God judging them?" "Why isn't God warning them that they better behave or else He'll have to serve up some justice"...this mystifies them because the God of NDEs does not jive with the schizophrenic of serious business and punishment.

Jesus Christ spoke of forgiveness "70x7 times per day", and in the NDEs that forgiveness and unconditional love is taken seriously by God..it's actually being practised...yet people are scared of it because they can't figure out why the "punishment" seems to be missing. And, the concept of "judgement" in the NDE is so radically different from an old king on a throne up in the sky, that they can't figure that out either and it scares them. Why are so many people so scared of unconditional love? It's like they are actually hoping for punishment...maybe because that would reinforce their own belief to them that somehow in some strange way PERFECT love still somehow means awesome punishment.

The best Bible translation is my mother's...because she lived it...and she did without fearing punishment or having to refer to the scriptures to verify everything...she just got better and better at extending love and kindness every day of her life. Will she be awesomely punished for her mistakes? Or will she be unconditionally loved forgiven for them and embraced for trying to clean up the milk that she spilled along the way?

[rosered]

  good testimony /witness ! BOBSON  :HeartThrob: thanks for sharing that  and reminding me of God is Love  , love is God  and no words  can express love it is an action in motion  and  of the most spiritually universal language  ever made known to mankind

  its something you know  but cannot  explain in mere words to anyone with satisfaction ...

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you  might be filled with all the fulness of God. LOVE IS  GOD  , GOD IS LOVE   all good and perfect /complete
and lacks NOTHING .. :HeartThrob:

[Bobson]

A BIT MORE FROM STORM'S NDE:

The entire life's review would have been emotionally destructive, and would have left me a psychotic person, if it hadn't been for the fact that my friend, and my friend's friends, were loving me during the unfolding of my life. I could feel that love. Every time I got a little upset they turned the life's review off for awhile, and they just loved me. Their love was tangible. You could feel it on your body, you could feel it inside you; their love went right through you. I wish I could explain it to you, but I can't.

The therapy was their love, because my life's review kept tearing me down. It was pitiful to watch, just pitiful. I couldn't believe it. And the thing is, it got worse as it went on. My stupidity and selfishness as a teenager only magnified as I became an adult – all under the veneer of being a good husband, a good father, and a good citizen. The hypocrisy of it all was nauseating. But through it all was their love.

They said, "No, you have to go back."

My friends then said, "Do you think that we expect you to be perfect, after all the love we feel for you, even after you were on Earth blaspheming God, and treating everyone around you like dirt? And this, despite the fact that we were sending people to try and help you, to teach you the truth? Do you really think we would be apart from you now?"
They assured me that mistakes are an acceptable part of being human. 

"Go," they said, "and make all the mistakes you want. Mistakes are how you learn."

As long as I tried to do what I knew was right, they said, I would be on the right path. If I made a mistake, I should fully recognize it as a mistake, then put it behind me and simply try not to make the same mistake again. The important things is to try one's best, keep one's standards of goodness and truth, and not compromise those to win people's approval.

"But," I said, "mistakes make me feel bad." 

They said, "We love you the way you are, mistakes and all. And you can feel our forgiveness. You can feel our love any time you want to."


They advised me to recognize it when I made a mistake and to ask for forgiveness. Before I even got the words out of my mouth, I would be forgiven but, I would have to accept the forgiveness. My belief in the principal of forgiveness must be real, and I would have to know that the forgiveness was given. Confessing, either in public or in private, that I had made a mistake, I should then ask for forgiveness. After that, it would be an insult to them if I didn't accept the forgiveness. I shouldn't continue to go around with a sense of guilt, and I should not repeat errors I should learn from my mistakes.

"But," I said, "how will I know what is the right choice? How will I know what you want me to do?"

They replied, "We want you to do what you want to do. That means making choices and there isn't necessarily any right choice. There are a spectrum of possibilities, and you should make the best choice you can from those possibilities. If you do that, we will be there helping you."

I didn't give in easily. I argued that back there was full of problems and that here was everything I could possibly want. I questioned my ability to accomplish anything they would consider important in my world. They said the world is a beautiful expression of the Supreme being. One can find beauty or ugliness depending on what one directs one's mind toward.

[Molly]

Go," they said, "and make all the mistakes you want. Mistakes are how you learn."

Just try not to kill too many people? Break too many hearts?  Wreck too much havok?

They seem to have left that out.  As long as you are learning, who cares what happens to the rest of us?
 

As long as I tried to do what I knew was right, they said, I would be on the right path.

Stalin thought he was doing what was right, didn't he?  Was he on the right path?  And, those mowed down by him, were they on the wrong path?

If I made a mistake, I should fully recognize it as a mistake, then put it behind me and simply try not to make the same mistake again.

How are you going to recognize it as a mistake? Because you lost the war?  Because you got caught?  Because somebody put the truth about you up on youtube?

The important things is to try one's best, keep one's standards of goodness and truth, and not compromise those to win people's approval.

Goodness and truth is according to one's standards?  That means we have 7 billion standards of goodness and truth?  Or just three--Stalin's, Hitler's, and Jesus'?

In addition, Howard later asked them if they (the angels) had ever been human, and they assured him that they had been human as well as also from among the variety of life forms that had paraded before him in the holographic procession described above. I will leave the reader to ponder on one's own the wondrous implications of these revelations!

This is the most radical form of evolution I've ever seen--from et sea slug to angel?  Is the angel the highest form of evolution, then?  That means angels are descended from monkeys, too?

The problem with all of this is that it makes the creation more important than the Creator.  And, it makes humans the most important of all (at least until they meet their ET betters).

[Bobson]

Molly, with due respect, this is just silly. You might think you have hit the nail right on the head but it's really very easy to discredit everything you've written.

MOLLY:How are you going to recognize it as a mistake? Because you lost the war?  Because you got caught?  Because somebody put the truth about you up on youtube?

ANS:How about recognizing it as a mistake because there's either very little, or  no, love involved in it? Is that so hard to figure out? How would you Molly, like to "correct" someone in that situation? By making them suffer for 200 years? Why would this satisfy you? How much suffering and punishment would you like to see them get? What makes you think you aren't getting the same amount of punishment that you desire for others, simply because you desire it?

MOLLY:Just try not to kill too many people? Break too many hearts?  Wreck too much havok?

ANS:Is killing people, breaking hearts, and wreacking havoc considered love? You missed the whole point. The points are that nothing that kills people, breaks hearts and wreaks havoc is any kind of love at all. Think very carefully and ask yourself if you could accept that a killer or heart breaker could possibly be loved by God? You want "human justice" Molly...you want them to PAY big time...but if you and I want this for others, it might really mean that WE need the fire.

MOLLY:Stalin thought he was doing what was right, didn't he?  Was he on the right path?  And, those mowed down by him, were they on the wrong path?

ANS:Did anything that he did consist of a definition of love? If not, then he wasn't on the right path was he? How much suffering would you like to see him get because of that? How much should he burn and for how long? How much and for how long should you and I burn?

MOLLY:This is the most radical form of evolution I've ever seen--from et sea slug to angel?

ANS:Sea slug to angel?? Molly, again you missed the point...you will need to sharpen your understanding a bit perhaps...they were NOT talking about earth evolution from a sea slug to an angel...they were saying they had indeed been human people as well as from the variety of other life forms they had paraded in front of him...they are referring to the other beings (life forms) living in other dimensions.

Molly, for all these actions that you have outlined in your post, let me ask you: Do you wish for or hope that SOME people are going to get "justice" and suffer terribly for a LONG time? Do you hope that their suffering is really awful? Do you want them to pay big time? If so, you might want to reconsider and start loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you.

Think about that very carefully before you answer. I didn't notice anything about forgiveness in your post? Do you wish for people who steal bubble gum or even commit murder to suffer untold agony? If so, you may want to step back and consider your ability to "forgive 70x7 per day"...and see if it lines up with what you are wishing for other people. Perhaps the need for others to get "the fire" is an indication that WE need the fire as well.

MOLLY: The problem with all of this is that it makes the creation more important than the Creator.

ANS: It does? If you think it does then perhaps you should read it more carefully. The creation is not MORE important than the Creator...the fact is that the spirit of the Creator is WITHIN the creation...so treat the creation accordingly.

[rosered]

Go," they said, "and make all the mistakes you want. Mistakes are how you learn."

Just try not to kill too many people? Break too many hearts?  Wreck too much havok?

They seem to have left that out.  As long as you are learning, who cares what happens to the rest of us?
 

As long as I tried to do what I knew was right, they said, I would be on the right path.

Stalin thought he was doing what was right, didn't he?  Was he on the right path?  And, those mowed down by him, were they on the wrong path?

If I made a mistake, I should fully recognize it as a mistake, then put it behind me and simply try not to make the same mistake again.

How are you going to recognize it as a mistake? Because you lost the war?  Because you got caught?  Because somebody put the truth about you up on youtube?

The important things is to try one's best, keep one's standards of goodness and truth, and not compromise those to win people's approval.

Goodness and truth is according to one's standards?  That means we have 7 billion standards of goodness and truth?  Or just three--Stalin's, Hitler's, and Jesus'?

In addition, Howard later asked them if they (the angels) had ever been human, and they assured him that they had been human as well as also from among the variety of life forms that had paraded before him in the holographic procession described above. I will leave the reader to ponder on one's own the wondrous implications of these revelations!

This is the most radical form of evolution I've ever seen--from et sea slug to angel?  Is the angel the highest form of evolution, then?  That means angels are descended from monkeys, too?

The problem with all of this is that it makes the creation more important than the Creator.  And, it makes humans the most important of all (at least until they meet their ET betters).

Molly do you think any of these ever experienced  Love and Compassion  ever  ?  or were these examples like Paul in his ignorance  persectued   Christ Body / the  true Church , till the Lord come
and made the  seeing  blinded by Truth/ Jesus

  Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If you  were blind, you should have no sin: but now you say, We see; therefore your sin remains. 


And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 


Act 9:2   And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 


Act 9:3   And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 

Act 9:4   And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 


Act 9:5   And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 


Act 9:6   And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 


Act 9:7   And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 


Act 9:8   And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought [him] into Damascus. 


Act 9:9  And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. 

Act 9:10 ¶ And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord. 


Act 9:11   And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 


Act 9:12   And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him,


Act 9:13   Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 
Act 9:14   And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 


Act 9:15   But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 

Act 9:16   For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 

Act 9:17   And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 


Act 9:18   And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 


Act 9:19   And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 


Act 9:20 ¶ And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

[Bobson]

Molly, with due respect, this is just silly. You might think you have hit the nail right on the head but it's really very easy to discredit everything you've written.

MOLLY:How are you going to recognize it as a mistake? Because you lost the war?  Because you got caught?  Because somebody put the truth about you up on youtube?

ANS:How about recognizing it as a mistake because there's either very little, or  no, love involved in it? Is that so hard to figure out? How would you Molly, like to "correct" someone in that situation? By making them suffer for 200 years? Why would this satisfy you? How much suffering and punishment would you like to see them get? What makes you think you aren't getting the same amount of punishment that you desire for others, simply because you desire it?

MOLLY:Just try not to kill too many people? Break too many hearts?  Wreck too much havok?

ANS:Is killing people, breaking hearts, and wreacking havoc considered love? You missed the whole point. The points are that nothing that kills people, breaks hearts and wreaks havoc is any kind of love at all. Think very carefully and ask yourself if you could accept that a killer or heart breaker could possibly be loved by God? You want "human justice" Molly...you want them to PAY big time...but if you and I want this for others, it might really mean that WE need the fire.

MOLLY:Stalin thought he was doing what was right, didn't he?  Was he on the right path?  And, those mowed down by him, were they on the wrong path?

ANS:Did anything that he did consist of a definition of love? If not, then he wasn't on the right path was he? How much suffering would you like to see him get because of that? How much should he burn and for how long? How much and for how long should you and I burn?

MOLLY:This is the most radical form of evolution I've ever seen--from et sea slug to angel?

ANS:Sea slug to angel?? Molly, again you missed the point...you will need to sharpen your understanding a bit perhaps...they were NOT talking about earth evolution from a sea slug to an angel...they were saying they had indeed been human people as well as from the variety of other life forms they had paraded in front of him...they are referring to the other beings (life forms) living in other dimensions.

Molly, for all these actions that you have outlined in your post, let me ask you: Do you wish for or hope that SOME people are going to get "justice" and suffer terribly for a LONG time? Do you hope that their suffering is really awful? Do you want them to pay big time? If so, you might want to reconsider and start loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you.

Think about that very carefully before you answer. I didn't notice anything about forgiveness in your post? Do you wish for people who steal bubble gum or even commit murder to suffer untold agony? If so, you may want to step back and consider your ability to "forgive 70x7 per day"...and see if it lines up with what you are wishing for other people. Perhaps the need for others to get "the fire" is an indication that WE need the fire as well.

MOLLY: The problem with all of this is that it makes the creation more important than the Creator.

ANS: It does? If you think it does then perhaps you should read it more carefully. The creation is not MORE important than the Creator...the fact is that the spirit of the Creator is WITHIN the creation...so treat the creation accordingly.

[Bobson]

I have just one more thing to say regarding Molly's post:

As he hung on the cross, he said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

Notice he didn't say "Father give them both barrels because they REALLY screwed me over"?

[Bobson]

On a side note...my dad was in WW2 as a Brent Gun operator for four years. He was also hit and spent the last 3 weeks of the war in the hospital and then it ended. My dad almost never spoke anything about that...ever. I remember 3 or 4 times in his life that it came out...and he would cry about it. He cried about what was happening there. But you know what the one thing that I never heard him say, when he cried about the horrors that went on?

I never heard him ever say anything EVER about "poor me for having to do that"....and I never EVER heard him say "the Germans/Nazis should have gotten every single thing done to them that they did to us, and others, there better be a payback." He never said it once.

And judging from the pictures he brought back with him, that I still have...well...let's just say that those pictures are beyond your imagination and beyond anything you saw in a schoolbook.

[rosered]

GODS GRACE   made known    those whom generously gave of their hearts to others   because that heart is the Lords  working though all chosen to do His will on the earth those  angels unawares ....  that  heal what has been stolen or broken  from God  evil destroys its self !
when satan is divided against satan its house has an end !


Hebrews 13
Concluding Words
1 Keep on loving each other as brothers and sisters.

2 Don't forget to show hospitality to strangers, for some who have done this have entertained angels without realizing it!

3 Remember those in prison, as if you were there yourself.

  Remember also those being mistreated, as if you felt their pain in your own bodies.
4 Give honor to marriage, and remain faithful to one another in marriage. God will surely judge people who are immoral and those who commit adultery.

5 Don't love money; be satisfied with what you have. For God has said,

   "I will never fail you.
      I will never abandon you."

6 So we can say with confidence,

   "The Lord is my helper,
      so I will have no fear.
      What can mere people do to me?"


7 Remember your leaders who taught you the word of God. Think of all the good that has come from their lives, and follow the example of their faith.
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.



9 So do not be attracted by strange, new ideas.

Your strength comes from God's grace, not from rules about food, which don't help those who follow them.

10 We have an altar from which the priests in the Tabernacle have no right to eat.



11 Under the old system, the high priest brought the blood of animals into the Holy Place as a sacrifice for sin, and the bodies of the animals were burned outside the camp.



12 So also Jesus suffered and died outside the city gates to make his people holy by means of his own blood.

13 So let us go out to him, outside the camp, and bear the disgrace he bore.  
14 For this world is not our permanent home; we are looking forward to a home yet to come.

15 Therefore, let us offer through Jesus a continual sacrifice of praise to God, proclaiming our allegiance to his name. 16 And don't forget to do good and to share with those in need. These are the sacrifices that please God.
17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.
:soap:

  I do understand Molly  , i too want justice , but do not know what justice of God is sometimes  :mblush:

to me those  types of  personality traits  of evil , hate , liars   all things bad  are   consumed  in the Fire of Gods love   , some will know that  shame  of being partakers  with it / Sin  but to me its not forever
  How can God be love and let  suffering continue without an end  ?
  where would be the  justice in that ?
  I am worthy of  death and yet my own hope is in Gods grace and forgiveness  as  we all learn to love and forgive in the same way as God does
   we suffer for doing good  and do suffer for  doing evil  both have an  End
  for those who believe Christ is the End and those whom do evil the end is death
  we all have  tasted death ..  Even Jesus for us  has tasted death for every man  , so His death  has  great purpose  in Gods will its not in vain   ever ...

   it is better God will you suffer for doing good than evil doing
  1peter 3 All Christians

8 Finally, all of you should be of one mind.

Sympathize with each other.

  Love each other as brothers and sisters. Be tenderhearted, and keep a humble attitude.

9 Don't repay evil for evil. Don't retaliate with insults when people insult you. Instead, pay them back with a blessing. That is what God has called you to do, and he will bless you for it.

10 For the Scriptures say,
   "If you want to enjoy life
      and see many happy days,
   keep your tongue from speaking evil
      and your lips from telling lies.
11 Turn away from evil and do good.
      Search for peace, and work to maintain it.
12 The eyes of the Lord watch over those who do right,
      and his ears are open to their prayers.
   But the Lord turns his face
      against those who do evil."[b]

Suffering for Doing Good
13 Now, who will want to harm you if you are eager to do good?
 
14 But even if you suffer for doing what is right, God will reward you for it.

So don't worry or be afraid of their threats.

15 Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life.

And if someone asks about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it.

16 But do this in a gentle and respectful way.

  Keep your conscience clear.

Then if people speak against you, they will be ashamed when they see what a good life you live because you belong to Christ.

17 Remember, it is better to suffer for doing good, if that is what God wants, than to suffer for doing wrong!


18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.[e]


19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.[f]


21 And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from[g] a clean conscience.

  It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

22 Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his authority.


   :icon_flower:
 

[Molly]

MOLLY: The problem with all of this is that it makes the creation more important than the Creator.

ANS: It does? If you think it does then perhaps you should read it more carefully. The creation is not MORE important than the Creator...the fact is that the spirit of the Creator is WITHIN the creation...so treat the creation accordingly.

I'm just thinking of this discussion I had the other day with a guy who was telling me there is no wrong and no right, there are just choices.  Don't you think the suicide bombers think they are doing the right thing, he said?

Yes, they do think they are right, I said--they are deceived, because there is a wrong and a right, and our only hope to ever find out the truth is from our Creator.  We will never discern it for ourselves.



Exodus 13:9
This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that the law of the LORD is to be on your lips. For the LORD brought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.

[Bobson]

MOLLY: I'm just thinking of this discussion I had the other day with a guy who was telling me there is no wrong and no right, there are just choices.

ANS:I see. So he sounds very much like a new ager...a moral relativist. I'm neither of those. I think there is wrong and right, although cultures can affect those definitions I suppose. That's also why I think Jesus Christ offers the highest form of discernment with it with things like "love others as I have loved you", "forgive 70x7 times per day". And then Paul gives the best definition of that love you could ever ask for...so anything that doesn't measure up to what Jesus Christ said, and Paul made clear, can't possibly be 'right'.

At least that's how I see it. It's also the hardest thing to do...just try and forgive someone who murders your family member...easy to say but not so easy to do...yet it seems that we're called to just that. And that's not something that people like to do, I don't think, I know I have a very hard time with that myself. Any "choice" that doesn't include SELF-LESS-NESS...is self-ISH, and it seems that that choice of self-ISH, is "wrong". Plain and simple.

I also don't really know how to tackle such a thing because how do you get someone to understand that? It seems like so many in the world are really only interested in themselves. Take "counsellors" for example...basically they instruct people who have problems in the way that "it's all about YOU, you have to do what's best for YOU". But doesn't this seem exactly backwards? Couldn't marriages be helped if it reversed and they were instructed "It's NOT about YOU, it's about the OTHER"...wouldn't you then have people forgetting about themselves and trying to be all they can be for their partner?

Wouldn't a lot of other things in the world be different if this principle of unconditional love, forgiveness and kindness, along with a different world view that EXCLUDES selfish thought, were taught?

[Bobson]

In other words...it's not about what I can get out of something, it's about what I can give to that something. And, Molly, I'm sorry if I upset you...I didn't mean to and I hope you would forgive me if I did.