TALK ABOUT THE HARD THINGS: NDE-OBE-VISIONS-BLIND PEOPLE SEE IN NDE

[Paul Hazelwood]

Here the Pharisees refer to Satan as the prince, meaning the ruler,  of the devils--

We also have to realize that what the pharasees believed may not be the truth since we are told not to follow their doctrine.

[peacemaker]

Bio-luminescence or living light is nothing like dung flies?  :coffee2:

"The quick and the dead."

[Molly]

LOL

When I saw the Hebrew definition for that name, I realized that's where Golding got the title of his book, Lord of the Flies.

Interesting title for Satan.

[peacemaker]

In Lord of the Flies, the beast began as a product of the boys' (or mans) imaginations.
Thus, they gave their fears a name. 

"Nothing is anything, until you label it something."

peacemaker

[noname]

Hi Bobson,
what is the connection in your post between NDE, satan and Jesus?

a lot of things are said here but I don't get what you're actually after in this post...

did you see someone in your NDE of wwhom you're not sure who it is? are you not sure whether it was Jesus or satan...as both are seen by some to be "morningstars"?

I have watched people giving evidence of the NDEs on video and a lot of them talk about meeting a person who is a bright light and love, peace and kindness flows from this light being...

[WhiteWings]

I have watched people giving evidence of the NDEs on video and a lot of them talk about meeting a person who is a bright light and love, peace and kindness flows from this light being...

Like this one: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen021.html

[WhiteWings]

Any idea why those visions most often happen when someone is nearly dead? Because the carnal mind loses control over the spirit?

[Bobson]

Hello everybody...
There is no connection to the experience I encountered with satan and Jesus Christ. What happened to me is a long story, it was profound, it was very logical and orderly...it was fantastic...yet so many Christians have made me wish it had never happened at all.

The reason I have come up with the satan and devil stuff is because I can't reconcile myself to a God that seems to be one of mistakes...as I keep saying. The God who created all, and then it failed, then he had to come up with a backup plan, and according to most of Christendom that backup plan is failing as well, he casts out a devil and permits mankind to be tormented by this devil and followers and damns or punishes the the humans after they become lost or fall victim to this same devil, etc.

Does this make any sense? It doesn't to me. If I was the creator and did all of this, it seems to me that I would be the one who should be held responsible, not the humans, because it is directly me who is at the control of all of this. How do I punish someone for falling victim to a devil that I cast out into their midst? How do I damn someone for that? I made a creation and should have known that it would all "fall" (because I'm omnipotent) but I did it anyway...then I permitted this devil to torment all of my creation after I cast him out because of my own initial actions...then I punished the humans because they were deceived by the same devil that I am the one who cast into their midst...then I had to sacrifice myself TO myself so that I could forgive the humans for what I caused in the very beginning. And for what? For the sake of free will? Is that a reason? It just doesn't seem like a valid reason to me for any of this...if it were me I would consider myself a creator who has made a lot of mistakes and then blames others for my own mistakes. It just doesn't seem rational to me.

When I discovered that there was no hell and no concept of eternal punishment either, it made a bit more sense, but it still doesn't make complete sense to me for the reasons that I've written. When I discovered that the Jews also said that there is no 'devil', I almost fell off my chair...and their explanation of 'the satan' actually made sense to me because it removed the God who 'failed' in a huge 'fall'...it removed the God that allowed people to be tormented because of a huge 'mis-fire' and the casting out of an awful creature into people' midst under the excuse of free will. Teh Christian 'evil one' seems to me to have come about by a mistake prone God who is in a battle against a 'devil' that God didn't want so he gave the gift of this devil to people to suffere with! The Jews idea of 'the satan' made more sense because at least it was part of a plan instead of part of a 'backfire'.

So, I know there is life after life, for sure. But it's like knowing the time without having a clock. I'm looking for a 'clock'. I feel pretty sure that the compass is "love" plain and simple, and this is universal. It's the God of mistakes and backup plans for those mistakes that I can't find a way to believe in. I am interested in Jesus Christ and I take him seriously, I just can't help but now wonder just how much of what is written, he actually said, because it seems to imply that he talks about this 'devil' sometimes...of which his own people claim has never existed. And it makes me wonder exactly who wanted a devil and why...it sounds very much to me like the people who wanted a hell also wanted a devil so they could have a being that could put you in their hell. If they have a hell, they have to have a ruler for it, who is capable of getting you into it.

And this is why I'm not able to accept the NT as 'proof' of the devil...I have no way of knowing what was manipulated in those writings. I have seen some Christians writing articles about hell and stating that the Jews got involved with the Egyptians and that this is partly where this hell came from...they claimed, and then supported with evidence, that these gospels were written by Egyptian Jews. It seems to me that somehow 'the satan' has turned into 'the devil' and the two have completely different meanings...and this is why I'm really only interested in the Jews version of the OT, to see how it compares with the Christian OT, which has already been tainted with 'hell', and from what I can see, also seems to be tainted with a 'devil' as well.

There is a huge difference between a 'satan' that is an emissary of God and a 'devil' that is a powerful being who is fighting with God. Is it possible that a being could be so stupid? None of this makes any sense to me and I was hoping to find someone who had researched all of this thoroughly, using the Jewish version of the OT, and to see what they had come up with...as long as they weren't biased in the direction of "proving" a devil that seems to have popped into Christianity.

The Jewish 'the satan' makes a lot more sense to me than the Christian 'devil' does...although I can't say that EITHER make total sense to me.

I also can't swallow what so many Christians say about 'satan' being a light...especially the light of NDEs. Think about this logically...that would be a pretty bad joke, wouldn't it? A God who, on top of everything else, permits this devil to appear as a light...permits this devil to radiate love...to radiate forgiveness...does this actually make sense? How am I supposed to find a way to like a God who permits things like this? How on earth am I supposed to like a God who permits a devil to masquerade as all these different things, including 'loving lights' in NDEs? What could be worse than permitting such a thing?

I sometimes wonder if these "lights" have been going on for a long time, and when they happened to people who might not have been so "Christ-like" in Paul's day, with the same 'message' of unconditional love and forgiveness, he had no way to explain how God could possibly be 'saving' or 'loving' these 'bad' people, other than to say it is 'satan' masquerading as a light because he couldn't fathom how people who had been 'bad' might still be able to be loved and forgiven so easily and unconditionally!
Although I don't know, I have serious doubts that this 'devil' exists...although I'm open to being convinced otherwise...but it's going to take more than the Christian OT and NT to convince me...I was hoping to find the answers to all of this.

Also, the vast majority of these NDEs speak of being "one"...they speak of "all is one". Now this sounds a lot different to me than 'we are all fallen and cut off'. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to sort this out...if someone believes that the Bible is absolutely 100% true and that anything that doesn't fit with it 100% is false, then I guess they'll say "all is one" is another trick of satan...anyone who doesn't believe the Bible is absolutely 100% true and there is no other, might see otherwise...and there seems to be no way to sort it out.

This is why I'm seeking this 'devil' and why I'm not willing to use the Christian Bible to prove the Bible...to me, the NT should be able to correlate to the Jewish version of the OT at least on simple things like "hell" and a "devil"...and it does not appear to.

I also do not trust things that come from the Latin Vulgate either. It seems to me that the Catholic church played a big part in establishing "hell"...and now I wonder if they also played a part in establishing a "devil" as well.

The Jewish 'satan' makes a bit of sense to me...the Christian 'devil' makes none...it all smacks very much of the same old hell-fire and brimstone concept.

However, I have not written any of this to be offensive to anyone at this website...I appreciate what people like Gary have done and I appreciate that Christians like Gary, and I'm sure many others here, seem to "live out" a God that is far more believable than most other Christians do. I certainly cannot find a way to "love" a God that damns my family, or anyone else for that matter...yet so many people have no problem with that...including the Catholics as well. I made the mistake of telling a preacher what happened to me and of course he informed me that it was the devil. I'm looking for an unbiased "study" into 'the satan' and 'the devil'...using sources that have the least chance of being tainted...I'm not looking for someone to prove there is a 'devil'...I'm looking for someone who did unbiased research...someone who didn't care either way if they found out a 'devil' existed or not...using more than the Christian OT and NT.

Please remember that I have not written any of this to offend anyone...only searching for answers. I'm actually really glad that there are Christians in the world who are like Gary Amireault and the people who run this website...and I include you, Molly, you've been nice to me and I appreciate it very much.

[Bobson]

Whitewings: Any idea why those visions most often happen when someone is nearly dead? Because the carnal mind loses control over the spirit?

ANS:Well, the spiritualists would say that the spirit/soul will actually leave the body even before the body dies...and that when someone dies they are actually out of the body even before their heart stops, etc., and that any pain stops before someone actually dies.

I do know people who claim to have been out of the body numerous times and can verify things they encountered while out...I know one particular person who was actually SEEN by another person while he was out of the body.

Now, looking back, it seems like this 'separation' actually started to happen when I was in a car accident as well...before the NDE happened with me...I felt a bit like part of me was going to 'separate'...and now after this dramatic experience, I wonder if that's what was happening.
I also know a lady who was in the hospital in an emergency and was suddenly found herself out of her body and in the room where her mother and dad were and later recounted their conversation to them.

In the late '60s, professor Charles Tart tried an experiment while he was in college. He setup a makeshift 'lab' when he met a lady who claimed that she sometimes left her body...he did an experiment with her for a few days, and monitored her brain waves, and had setup a way to view her body, etc. He put a card with a five digit number on a high ledge in the room where she was...on one of those days she informed him that she had been out of her body and knew the number, and told him what it was...and she was right. You can find him telling the details of this online...it's not hard to find. This has never been duplicated, to my knowledge, but right now Dr. Sam Parnia has a study underway called "Aware"...where they have implemented objects in emergency rooms, to see if NDE people are able to see these objects from above their body...in an interview he said that the preliminary results were positive and it was now being extended to various hospitals around the UK, USA, and others.

He didn't come right out and say it, but when he said this...it's my opinion that they've already got many people who have identified the objects from impossible vantage points, etc. because he seemed pretty confident about it...and this is taking place over a couple of years and then results will be announced. Personally, I think they've already numerous results and they will spread it to other countries and cities and when the results are announced they will try to ensure that there is no loophole for pseudo-skeptics...who will of course be threatened by those results and will do anything to try and invalidate it and smear Parnia and his associates.

[Bobson]

Also, Whitewings...I think the "mind" actually IS the soul or spirit, whatever you want to call it. It's not the mind that 'loses' control of the spirit...it's the brain that loses control over the 'mind', which actually is the spirit/soul. I not accept that the brain generates the mind...I know much of science thinks that way...but not all people of science do. People who profess the reality of life after life are in pretty good academic company.

I also think that science is a lot like fundamentalists...they insist that they know the 'truth' and that there is NO other. It's this kind of thinking that needs to be updated...and until it is progress will be very, very slow. Fundamentalists of any persuasion don't let go easily. If Dr. Parnia's team of science yields positive results, and I think it already has, then that will shake up a lot of things...but there will still be fundamentalist scientists who will try to find any way of invalidating it that they can to protect their own materialistic darwinism.

After all, one materialist doctor, when confronted with the reality that blind people see in NDEs, came up with the 'conclusion' that it's not really happening...he decided that somehow the blind person's brain is 'throwing' itself up near the ceiling...and the other doctor's brains were somehow 'throwing' themselves up to the same spot near the ceiling, and 'transferring' their brain information to the 'thrown' brain of the blind person. Wow! That would be remarkable indeed wouldn't it? This is the length that pseudo-skeptics will go to in order to protect their belief.

[WhiteWings]

When I discovered that the Jews also said that there is no 'devil', I almost fell off my chair...and their explanation of 'the satan' actually made sense to me because it removed the God who 'failed' in a huge 'fall'...it removed the God that allowed people to be tormented because of a huge 'mis-fire' and the casting out of an awful creature into people' midst under the excuse of free will.

Satan or devil whats the difference. The Christian fallen angel and the Jewish angel with a mission from God have the same effect. They tempt people. "...I send you a strong delusion..."

I am interested in Jesus Christ and I take him seriously, I just can't help but now wonder just how much of what is written, he actually said, because it seems to imply that he talks about this 'devil' sometimes...of which his own people claim has never existed.

I think the problem isn't that a translation uses devil, satan or somthing else. Words are just a bunch of letters with a defenition. The problem lays in the corrupted defenition.
Like age gets redefined as forever. Grave turns into a lava pit. Etc AFAIK the word hell is a good translation of the Hebrew words for grave etc. But the defention got redefined. So whatever Jesus said should be understood with the word defenition in the time He spoke them. If the HS personally translated tthe Bible into English it would be a perfect translation for a while. But in 200 years the word defenitions are different, and things seems wrong. A classic example is the gay=happy turned into gay=homosexual.
So:
a] What did Jesus say?
b] What was the word defenition at that time?
c] What was the word defenition during translation? -> does it match b?
d] What is the current word defenition? -> does it match b and c?

And it makes me wonder exactly who wanted a devil and why...it sounds very much to me like the people who wanted a hell also wanted a devil so they could have a being that could put you in their hell. If they have a hell, they have to have a ruler for it, who is capable of getting you into it.

I think devil is  a good translation. Likely what Jesus said. BUT a pagan defenition got attached to it.

And this is why I'm not able to accept the NT as 'proof' of the devil...I have no way of knowing what was manipulated in those writings.

Same goes for Jewish versions. Goto Amazon and read reviews of the JPS and the Stone edition. Both translations by respected Rabbi's.
And guess what.... some give the Stone edition 5 stars and others 1 star because it's so very wrong. And of course the other way around

The Jewish 'the satan' makes a lot more sense to me than the Christian 'devil' does...although I can't say that EITHER make total sense to me.

Depends on the denomination. I think you will have a hard time finding anyone on this forum that things satan/devil is part of a out of control unforseen war.

I also can't swallow what so many Christians say about 'satan' being a light...especially the light of NDEs. Think about this logically...that would be a pretty bad joke, wouldn't it?

Hidden agenda. If that 'light' says "I'm Jesus and tell everyone that 95% will burn in hell forever." The that was a NDE with Jesus. But if the light would say "I and Father love you all and we will all enjoy being together." then that's absolute proof of satanic deception.
But who's to blame? Jesus said a wrong word? Corrupt translation? Changed defentions? Or just people twisting everything to their own believes.....

Although I don't know, I have serious doubts that this 'devil' exists...although I'm open to being convinced otherwise...but it's going to take more than the Christian OT and NT to convince me...I was hoping to find the answers to all of this.

Everything that does or doesn't exist is according to plan and under full control.
:thumbsup:

[Bobson]

Whitewings:I think devil is  a good translation. Likely what Jesus said. BUT a pagan defenition got attached to it.

ANS:OK,  I could see that as a possibility. Is there any particular reason that you say this that I should know?

Whitewings:Hidden agenda. If that 'light' says "I'm Jesus and tell everyone that 95% will burn in hell forever." The that was a NDE with Jesus. But if the light would say "I and Father love you all and we will all enjoy being together." then that's absolute proof of satanic deception. But who's to blame? Jesus said a wrong word? Corrupt translation? Changed defentions? Or just people twisting everything to their own believes.....

ANS:Yes, this is sort of what I'm saying...if someone sees a light and it says "everyone is going to hell" then that seems to be "authentic" to most Christians...but when a non-Christian, perhaps even a person who is deemed by many Christians to be sinful, sees a light says "you are loved and have a purpose" then that seems to be "authentically" satan. And this is what I just don't understand...that's a pretty cruel joke to be played on someone and I can't find a way to believe such a God that would permit this to happen to people, exists. I think it's also one of the reasons that "neutral" NDE people actually reject Christianity and turn to other sources, like new age, etc.

[Bobson]

MAYBE A BIT OFF TOPIC...BUT AN ALTERNATE VIEW OF DEVILS, DEMONS AND POSSESSION...FROM AN ALLEGED EXORCIST:

Please find below a letter to the editor of a TV-Station, who prepared a show about the subject exorcisms together with Wanda Pratnicka:
Cordial greetings,

I was born three years after the end of World War II. I had skills from birth. I saw and knew things that others couldn't see and know. All my life people of various ages have come to me for help, comfort, understanding and advice. I never looked for them; it was they themselves who somehow found me out. At a certain moment I learned to see an illness and its cause long before the appearance of its physical symptoms. However, I help only when a patient decides to help him or herself.

I am led in everything I do by God, the Higher Power and Intelligence. It is that which prompts me, tells me what I should do at a given moment. That's why I never wonder how I can help. It happens automatically. I know what to do, what questions to ask, what answers to give. I know much more about the patients, about their problems, than they know themselves. I have thousands of proofs to show that I do it well.

Today I am a therapist for ghosts and for people. They both need the same care, understanding and the same dose of love.

I'm glad that you want to look at the subject of exorcisms and not because I would be participating in it but because it's an exceptionally burning issue. It has more detractors than proponents and that's because the majority of people believes it's nonsense for mankind in the twenty-first century, when the world has progressed so far, to believe in ghosts. It's not just a question of believing in their existence but of acknowledging the fact that ghosts (beings without bodies) have such a great influence on people's lives.
There are huge numbers of individual people (every one of them thinks they are the only ones affected) who are suffering greatly, whom nobody wants to or can help. This is not however a phenomenon which a normal person (and that includes priests) will want to believe. For it inspires fear, irritates with its irrationality and to many people seems to be completely insane. It's therefore much easier to mock it, regard it as prejudice or superstition. This, however, is hiding one's head in the sand in the (usually vain) hope that nothing like this will ever touch us or those closest to us.

Till now exorcisms have been carried out only by the Church. A church exorcism is a battle with Satan and as we know every battle has to end with victory for one of the sides and defeat for the other. A church exorcist expels Satan from a person. But where is this ghost - "Satan" - supposed to go? Having been expelled it wanders the world of the living and at the first opportunity will possess another person. That's why church exorcisms are, in many cases, of little or no effect. And anyway, in the majority of cases priests will not undertake an exorcism but will concentrate on sending the people needing help to a psychiatrist. This isn't, however, the priests' fault. I've explained quite extensively why this happens in my book "Possessed by Ghosts - Exorcisms of the 21st Century" in the chapter on exorcisms.

I personally do not believe in Satan. In twenty five thousand, sometimes severe or demonic cases of possession of my patients I have not come across Satan. In the majority of these cases these people have already sought help from priests, been treated by psychiatrists and sometimes spent years in psychiatric institutions.

An exorcist - at least in my case - is someone who releases people from ghosts and ghosts from people. An exorcist doesn't expel them from a person any old where but teaches them, persuades them and helps them to pass through to the other side (to God).

I often have to apply therapy, in the form of psychotherapy, to the ghost doing the possessing the same way as I do to the person possessed. During it I explain to them the interdependence they are tied into and how they can release one another from it. It often happens that when I explain its situation to a ghost it will willingly release the person and leave. Similarly, a person will also release the ghost. There are cases, however, when a ghost is completely deaf to all arguments and then it's hard work to persuade it to change its decision. It is not, though, a question of whether or not a ghost will leave but rather of how much time will elapse before it does so.

Anyone can be possessed by ghosts regardless of their age, sex, education, religious affiliation, or social standing. Naturally, one person will have greater predisposition to being possessed and another lesser, but absolutely everyone is threatened by it. The ghost of any person who has died and not passed through to the other side of death's curtain may be the one which has just possessed us; so it may be our mother, father, brother, sister, grandfather, granny, uncle, aunt, friend, work-mate, neighbor, school friend or some random ghost which just happened to be nearby. Sometimes it's a very strong bond of which both parties are unaware and which cannot be broken in any traditional way.

The reasons why a person's ghost did not pass through to the other side of death's curtain (to the Light, to God - different people have different names for it) are very many. I'll mention just some of them: Some ghosts won't leave since they think that they sinned so much in their lives that they're afraid of their punishment. They want to delay its imposition as far as possible into the future. Others don't really know where they're supposed to go since when they were alive they believed that their existence will end in the grave. Others again don't go because they are too attached to the material world: their possessions, their work, authority, sex, habits. Others still want to leave but their family didn't want to let them go.

However, most souls don't leave because they do not realize that they have died and the reason for that is that after their death nothing much really has changed. They continue to feel, see, hear just as they did in their lifetime. So what could possibly tell them that they are not alive? If they had before their death had so much as an awareness that after death nothing will change then it would be easier for them to face reality.

Possession is based on this: a ghost which has not passed through to the other side of death's curtain has to "hook up" to some person in order to survive. Then it steals the person's energy. For many ghosts this is, however, not enough so then they steal the person's body as well. If such a ghost also succeeds in usurping a person's mind then we're dealing with total possession. Such a person is a puppet which is completely governed by a ghost. Depending on whether this ghost used to be a good person when it was alive or a bad one, we will be dealing either with "demonic" possession or not.

Right at the very beginning possession may not be noticed at all. It causes a person to have mood swings, headaches, stomach aches and panic attacks. With the passage of time and according to the degree of possession, other disorders may follow - physical and mental - more severe personality disorders, severe pains, chronic or incurable diseases, stays in hospital - not just psychiatric ones. People who are possessed by ghosts frequently fall ill with diseases which the ghost had suffered from, or died of, earlier which indicates that very many sick people might well be cured if they only became aware of the fact that they are possessed and ensured that the ghost left them.

Very many people suffer completely not realizing why. My book reveals this dependence clearly and helps people to take charge of their lives. That is one of the reasons it was written.

Best wishes

Wanda Pratnicka

[WhiteWings]

Whitewings:I think devil is  a good translation. Likely what Jesus said. BUT a pagan defenition got attached to it.

ANS:OK,  I could see that as a possibility. Is there any particular reason that you say this that I should know?

There are quite a few discussions on this forum, otehr UR forums/blogs, and the book section of this forum about word defenitions.
When you have 50 posts you will see another busy section of this forum. Also such posts there.
Not all agree with this but imo the defenition of "all, aion, fire, brimstone" are the pillars of the difference between UR and ET.
All and aion simply force twisting things into UR. Bit over simplified ofcourse but still very relevant to your question.
If satan is at war and causes havoc the satn is to blame and God is of the hook.
But what if God has full control over the being that creates the havoc. When people don't understand the way God works (due to word defenitions) they need to get God of the hook. So a bad guy is needed. Defenitions are very important.
Imagine I go to a hardcore ET forum and use as a signature a quote from a person that lived a few hundred years ago.
"Jesus was a gay person" How many seconds later will I be banned? But still at that time the quote was written I means Jesus was a happy/cheerful person. And that would be accepted.
Plus, of course pagan concepts slipped in. Constantine suddenly switched from many pagan God to The God. Augustine was a pagan worshipper to before he turned to The God. But did they fully turn? Or did they quite often read words with pagan defenitions.

[Bobson]

Whitewings: But what if God has full control over the being that creates the havoc. When people don't understand the way God works (due to word defenitions) they need to get God of the hook. So a bad guy is needed. Defenitions are very important.

ANS:This is exactly what I'm thinking...I don't understand how there can be anything or any "being" that is at war with God...this is why "the satan" as the Jews were describing it actually made a bit of sense to me...it means that God is in control and that no "thing" and "being" is fighting with God...which would be the stupidest thing this "being" could ever attempt...and makes me wonder how on earth a God would ever permit such a thing as this "rebellious warrior" to torment humans and then punish the humans for falling victim to this horrendous tormentor who is stupid enough to war with God...I wish it made sense to me but it just doesn't.

Whitewings:Plus, of course pagan concepts slipped in. Constantine suddenly switched from many pagan God to The God. Augustine was a pagan worshipper to before he turned to The God. But did they fully turn? Or did they quite often read words with pagan defenitions.

ANS:How much do you know about Constantine and Augustine? Do you know enough about this to answer some questions about it for me?

[WhiteWings]

ANS:How much do you know about Constantine and Augustine? Do you know enough about this to answer some questions about it for me?

Not a lot I fear. But.... I know how to Google and I'm not the only member around here that can potentially answer your questions.
You know, I've read 80% of all the books in "Scholars Corner" Things are sometime just mentioned. Not everything comes with 500 pages of documents to back it up.
I would say ask your questions (in a new thread). :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

The Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.
........
The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.
........
When this world comes to an end, and the Next World begins, the Day of Judgment will take place. After that, Satan's work will be done.
There will no longer be any need for a Tempting Angel. Satan will cease to exist. It will not be a sad day at all.

Nor will it be unfair treatment of Satan. It will be like turning off a machine. Angels are not like humans, with human emotions and desires. They exist merely to follow Hashem's instructions, for the greater glory of Hashem.

Still very weird. Satan did follow orders to the letter. No matter what the orders were they came from Father. How can obeying Father lead to be "turning off like a machine"?
:dontknow:

[Molly]

The Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.
........
The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.
........
When this world comes to an end, and the Next World begins, the Day of Judgment will take place. After that, Satan's work will be done.
There will no longer be any need for a Tempting Angel. Satan will cease to exist. It will not be a sad day at all.

Nor will it be unfair treatment of Satan. It will be like turning off a machine. Angels are not like humans, with human emotions and desires. They exist merely to follow Hashem's instructions, for the greater glory of Hashem.

Still very weird. Satan did follow orders to the letter. No matter what the orders were they came for Father. How can obeying Father lead to be "turning off like a machine"?
:dontknow:

The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.

Who says Satan is an angel?


Joshua 24:23
Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.


"strange"

H5236
נכר
nêkâr
nay-kawr'
From H5234; foreign, or (concretely) a foreigner, or (abstractly) heathendom: - alien, strange (+ -er).


"gods"

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.



...incline your heart unto...


" the LORD God of Israel"

Y'hôvâh 'ĕlôhı̂ym yiśrâ'êl



"Israel"

H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.


1 Corinthians 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels?

[WhiteWings]

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[SQ]

I am a bit off topic but when my grandmother died years back I was living 800 miles away,I was not able to attend her funeral.
I was stressed bad cause I wanted to go, but couldn't.
I went to bed the night before her funeral and seemed I just laid down may have went to sleep briefly.
Suddenly at the end of my bed grandmother appeared, I said what you doing here grandma.
She said I wanted to say goodby stay sweet don't forget me.
She was lit up she glowed in the dark in her old familiar clothes.
I said I won't forget you, then as suddenly as she appeared she disappeared.
I have told this to a few on line and off, some say devil playing tricks some says my mind took me there.
It has been a great comfort for me over the years, gave me hope of seeing her again sometime.
Sorry for brief hi-jack, but seemed appropriate here.  :cloud9:

[WhiteWings]

NDE's are about seeing the after life. Isn't that what you saw? If yes it's on-topic :thumbsup:

[SQ]

NDE's are about seeing the after life. Isn't that what you saw? If yes it's on-topic :thumbsup:

OK good!   :cloud9:

[SQ]

NDE's are about seeing the after life. Isn't that what you saw? If yes it's on-topic :thumbsup:

As an afterthought I wanted to say Grandmother was dead was to be buried the next day. She came to my bed the night before her funeral, that I wasn't able to attend.
This was an actual death.
Maybe Bobson or someone can comment on this experience.
I have a Catholic friend told me grandmother is a saint.
I don't know about that but in life she was.

[Molly]

NDE's are about seeing the after life. Isn't that what you saw? If yes it's on-topic :thumbsup:

As an afterthought I wanted to say Grandmother was dead was to be buried the next day. She came to my bed the night before her funeral, that I wasn't able to attend.
This was an actual death.
Maybe Bobson or someone can comment on this experience.
I have a Catholic friend told me grandmother is a saint.
I don't know about that but in life she was.

Loved that story.  Lots of people have had experiences like that, including me.


Song of Solomon 8:6
Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame.

[rosered]

NDE's are about seeing the after life. Isn't that what you saw? If yes it's on-topic :thumbsup:

As an afterthought I wanted to say Grandmother was dead was to be buried the next day. She came to my bed the night before her funeral, that I wasn't able to attend.
This was an actual death.
Maybe Bobson or someone can comment on this experience.
I have a Catholic friend told me grandmother is a saint.
I don't know about that but in life she was.

Loved that story.  Lots of people have had experiences like that, including me.


Song of Solomon 8:6
Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame.

Awesome Sistas !!! :HeartThrob:  this one  verse  goes great Molly with that verse


Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 

awesome as this one too ....  I still long to know more on the burning bush .. off topic maybe , maybe not lol.....

Exd 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed. 

  Blessings to you all............... :icon_flower: