TALK ABOUT THE HARD THINGS: NDE-OBE-VISIONS-BLIND PEOPLE SEE IN NDE

[Molly]

Also, the Jews denial of a devil and their description of a 'satan' sounds to me to be very, very suspiciously like what Jesus Christ was talking about when he said to Peter "Get behind me satan"...was he talking to the devil himself? Or was he talking to Peter and insisting that he overcome "the hinderer"..."the satan"...the angel with a dirty job? I don't know, but it sounds quite a bit like he was using 'satan' in the same context as what the Jews are stating...

Yes, there are some here who would agree with you on that, saying it is the adversary in Peter that Jesus is calling 'satan.'

However, I feel that satan as a spirit [of antichrist] can and does enter into men, causing them to do his bidding instead of God's.   To my mind, Jesus hands himself over to satan, not Judas--

3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.

--Luke 22


I'm curious--why does this interest in satan come out of your NDE?  I know for myself,  the only thing I can conclude from my similar experiences is that we have a spiritual body, connected to our physical body.  I saw nothing else.

[Bobson]

MOLLY:How do they explain that?

-Well, they just say he didn't fulfill enough prophecy and that's that. But this doesn't matter to me...I don't really care about it. Neither do I see missing Jesus Christ as being relevant to the devil...with Jesus Christ the discussion is about who was he? With the devil the question is "does he exist?" And it smells conspicuously like he doesn't because he is absent from the people who claimed all these revelatons from God...this is why I came to this website...I already knew what the Jews said, I wanted to know what the UR people here said because they had the guts to dig and eliminate the myth of hell and eternal punishment.

Respectfully, though, it kind of sounds a bit like "selective belief" now...in other words "we used the Jews to realize there is no hell and never was right from the beginning...but well, they can't be trusted at all when they say there is no devil because they don't know their own holy books well enough."

I don't know...it doesn't make sense to me...and I don't see the NT as proof of a devil anymore than I see it as proof of 'hell'. The same God should be able to cross reference in at least the simplest ways...and what could be more simple than hell and a devil? And, the cross referencing is not working...but in this case Christians are saying the Jews just didn't get it when it comes to the devil...even though they have a perfectly rational explanation for 'the satan'...in fact, to me, it makes far more sense than the casting out of some kind of a supernatural devil to torment mankind, who is warring with God...one could say that this was not a very nice "gift" from God at all.

But from the Jews point of view, where the satan is a hinderer, commissioned by God to provide the opportunity to choose between good and evil, it makes some sense. This conceopt eliminates a God who casts a devil down to torment people (not very nice) and then damns, destroys or punishes those people simply because they fell victim to the devil that God himself cast out because HE didn't want him around. For two entities to be at war, they certainly seem to be buddies in Job.

[Bobson]

Hello again Molly...well, this interest in Satan, devils, demons and such didn't come as a result of NDE. It's come as a result of searching for valid truth...in other words, something to believe that makes logical sense to me...this is why I came here and this is why the interest in this...Honestly, in much of Christendom, I find a God of mistakes...a creation that goes bad and he did it anyway...letting a supernatural devil wreak havoc on humans simply because he's at war with this devil..the damnation of the world for what they did or did not believe...the list goes on.

That's why it's important for me to get to the bottom of it...I know there's life after life...but now I need something that  makes sense, to hold onto about that.
I didn't find much sense in this powerful devil who God would've known would turn and rebel but did nothing about it and then cast this devil down to torment humans...and then punishes them afterward for something that he should have avoided to begin with.

I was shocked when I found out about this "devil" from the Jews, and the explanations as to how this devil was mistranslated and invented. What the Jews said about 'the satan' as an emissary working for God made sense to me..it removed the God of mistakes..and it removed the God who threw out a super devil to torment humans just because he didn't want this devil around. That made NO sense to me at all. It still doesn't.

And I came here because the UR people had the guts to expose "hell"...yet it seems they now want to say the Jews didn't get it when it comes to this devil! It seems quite convenient to me.

Although, in no way do I say this disrespectfully towards you or anyone else here. Be sure of that.

[Bobson]

Oh, and also Molly, when that experience happened to me, a preacher told me that it was really the devil who had orchestrated all of it...that's another reason that led me to investigate the devil and these demons...I have only seen a little on the "demons" but it already sort of looks to me like these demons are not what most of Christianity is claiming they are either.

[Bobson]

Molly, can I ask you...are there UR people here who would actually say that a "devil" does not exist, and that 'the satan' does? Are there some here who would indeed say that?

[friendofmankind]

Oh, and also Molly, when that experience happened to me, a preacher told me that it was really the devil who had orchestrated all of it...that's another reason that led me to investigate the devil and these demons...I have only seen a little on the "demons" but it already sort of looks to me like these demons are not what most of Christianity is claiming they are either.

Bobson, what do you make of the demons that Jesus drove out of the man into the herd of pigs?

What were they?

Mark 5:11-13 - A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank and were drowned.

...They could even speak...

I really would like to hear your take on this if you have time.

[Molly]

I already knew what the Jews said, I wanted to know what the UR people here said because they had the guts to dig and eliminate the myth of hell and eternal punishment.

I think many of them would agree with you.  Don't know where they are though.  Maybe all on vacation.  So all you have is me. lol  And I went to hell, met satan, shook his hand, and was saved by Jesus. And I did all that without dying.  So you can't convince me he's not real rofl.

And I came here because the UR people had the guts to expose "hell"...yet it seems they now want to say the Jews didn't get it when it comes to this devil! It seems quite convenient to me.

No, I'm just speaking for me.  Many others here would agree with you I think.  Maybe I should be quiet and see if they come along and say something.  Plus, I never said the Jews didn't get it with regards to the devil--he shows up in the third chapter of their Book.  I believe there were three beings there, Adam, Eve, and Satan, just like described.

Regarding proving NDE--there is a pediatrician who wrote a book--can't remember his name now, but he saw that many children he saved from death described the same experiences to him--so he asked them to draw pictures and describe what they saw--and there are many similarities among what they say they saw--tunnel, white light, angels, etc.

This is really the first generation to come back from death on a routine basis, because of our technology and knowledge, but--


Luke 16:31
... If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[Bobson]

Hello Molly, I have to be short here because I have to go to bed! I can't comment much on the "demons" thing because I just don't think I have found out enough about it to do so. What I will say is, as I understand it..."demon" means "knowing one"...if this is true it seems to be a long way from fallen devils. I also sometimes wonder if some of this NT stuff came from pagan sources like the Egyptians...I have seen Christians' articles claiming this to be true...and they tied the "hell" thing into the Egyptians as well.

When I see words like "evil spirits" I don't necessarily see those as being "demons"...this is speculation on my part, but I often wonder if these evil spirits were nothing more than earthbound souls. The spiritualists would not deny that this kind of thing happens...they just call it obsession or attachment, instead of possession. They do however say that a devil and demons do not exist...they say these things are 'attaching' malevolent and malicious spirits who do this kind of thing for a variety of reasons that I just don't have time right now to get into.

But that's a fast answer.

[Bobson]

Hi, yes I've asked about that...Adam, Eve and devil...the Jews say the serpent was not a devil and in fact I think they say that it was not even 'the satan'. I haven't dug into that too far yet...but I intend to.

[Bobson]

Hi Molly, that doctor you mentioned...his name is Dr. Melvin Morse.

[Molly]

Molly, can I ask you...are there UR people here who would actually say that a "devil" does not exist, and that 'the satan' does? Are there some here who would indeed say that?

There are people here who say the satan is just a name for the adversarial side of man [fallen man]--adversary to God, that is.  I can't really do justice to what they say, but my understanding of it is that satan does not exist as an independent being [that is, independent of man].  

[Bobson]

I see...thanks for explaining that

[Bobson]

Did I make you cringe when I mentiond "spiritualists"?  :bigGrin:

[Molly]

Did I make you cringe when I mentiond "spiritualists"?  :bigGrin:

No, but they make me cringe lol. 

Maybe when you wake up, whitewings will have dug up some other threads for you.

[WhiteWings]

letting a supernatural devil wreak havoc on humans simply because he's at war with this devil.

War is at defeating your enemy. God has just to think about winning that war and satan is defeated.


I wonder what this is about...

Matthew 8:28-29   And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.  29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

[Bobson]

Molly, on an side note here, as I'm sitting wondering why I'm not in bed...did you know that there are those who refer to themselves as Christian Spiritualists...who do not deny the resurrection...did you know this? I didn't, but I found out about them.

[Molly]

Molly, on an side note here, as I'm sitting wondering why I'm not in bed...did you know that there are those who refer to themselves as Christian Spiritualists...who do not deny the resurrection...did you know this? I didn't, but I found out about them.

I didn't know that, no. 

[Bobson]

Well Whitewings, I don't mean to be difficult...but what you posted I would still have to say, I can't accept the NT as proof of devils...there has to be a correspondence on this with the Jewish version of the OT...and there isn't one when it comes to a mighty "devil"...the NT contained "hell" too, until we discovered that "hell" did not exist...maybe now we'll discover that the devil does not exist either...

Until there is a direct correlation of the devil (not the satan) to the Jewish version of OT, I'm not able to accept the NT as "proof" of a devil...I'm not talking about "the satan"...I'm talking about the supernatural "devil" that seems to me to be an invention...or maybe a confused translation...I hope that's all it is.

[Bobson]

At this point I don't trust any translation word that is "devil" or "devils"...until I see a direct correlation to the Jewish version of the OT..and so far there isn't one...so I would have to say the stories about devils in the NT might be concocted by the church...or else mistranslated as "evil spirits"...and if that's the case they are not fallen devils at all. They might even be malicious earthbound entities who have attached themselves for a variety of reasons.

Even the spiritualists don't deny that Jesus Christ was casting out "something" but they insist that it was not typical Christian devils and demons.

[WhiteWings]

Well Whitewings, I don't mean to be difficult...but what you posted I would still have to say, I can't accept the NT as proof of devils...

It was no statement. It was a question.
I'm open to views from both sides.

[Bobson]

OK my friend  :laughing7:

[Bobson]

JUST IN CASE ANYONE IS INTERESTED...HERE IS A LETTER I GOT FROM A RABBI REGARDING THE 'DEVIL' AND THE SATAN:

The Christians don't understand how an angel of G-d can try to seduce people to disobey G-d, so they came to the unsupported conclusion that Satan must have rebelled against G-d.

This is completely contrary to everything Judaism believes. We reject that interpretation entirely.

Jews do not see it that way, and we never have. The Satan is also not working for himself.

The Hebrew word "Satan" means "Hinderer." To hinder someone means to hold him back, to try to prevent him from doing something. G-d created the Hinderer to give us work to do in this world. Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of the Satan. The Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.

Temptation is there to try and deter us. It gives us the ability to do the wrong thing. More importantly, it gives us the ability to look at evil and refuse to do it. By presenting us with the opportunity to do evil, it gives us the ability to choose between good and evil.

The ability to choose between good and evil is what gives us free will.

So, in order for us to work for the good that Hashem wants to give us, the good of the World to Come, we need something to deter us. That is the ability to do evil. Satan is our Evil Inclination (Yetzer Hara). The Evil Inclination tries to prevent us from doing good, because Hashem has commanded the Evil Inclination to do that.
Each of us every day fights with the Satan. We all have temptations, throughout the day. But we, as the Children of Israel, have the power to overcome even angels, if we work at it. Therefore, the Talmud says that men are greater than angels, for we can fight with an angel (Satan) and win.
Satan is not, as the Christians think, a rebellious angel. How impossible.

Furthermore, humans have Satan to tempt us. Angels have no Satan to tempt them. Who would be Satan's Satan? An ultra-Satan?

The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.

A man once came to a Rabbi, very troubled. He said to the Rabbi, "Please pray to Hashem to take away my Evil Inclination. I do so many sins, and I want to stop sinning!"
The Rabbi answered, "Then what would be your purpose in this world, if you had no Evil Inclination? Your purpose in life is to overcome your personal Evil Inclination. That is what you were created for! Hashem has enough angels in heaven. He doesn't need one more. He created you human, so that you could improve yourself."
Humans can improve themselves, and that is their purpose in this world. Angels, however, cannot improve themselves. That's not their purpose. Angels are therefore said to be "standing." They cannot become better, and they cannot rise any higher than they are. They are, so to speak, standing.

Isaiah, when describing a Heavenly scene, says "Seraphim were standing around Him...." (Isaiah 6:2). (Seraphim are a type of angel.) Spiritually, angels are stuck at whatever level Hashem created them.

Humans are different. Humans can rise by improving themselves. For that reason, we are described as "walkers." Therefore the Prophet Zachariah told the High Priest, "This is what Hashem, L-rd of Hosts says: if you walk in My ways, and if you observe My safeguards, you and your sons after you will be the High Priests, and you and your sons will thus guard my Holy Temple, and I will make you walkers among these who are standing" (Zachariah 3:7).

The Prophet Zachariah was saying that in the Next World they will be walkers among the standers, which means humans among angels.

So the angels are referred to as perpetually standing, but we are movers. Our purpose is to keep on moving, to keep on improving ourselves, and to keep on rising.
And how do we do it? By constant battle with the Evil Inclination.

So now we have to revise our understanding of Satan. Satan is not a fallen angel. Satan is merely an angel with a dirty job. Satan does not have a rival kingdom. Satan is not in competition with G-d, and Satan does not want followers or worshipers. He's not even happy when people obey him and sin.

So, no, Satan does not wear a red suit, or carry a trident. Nor does he wear a business suit. Satan is a force of evil in the world that we must resist. Satan most often appears as a desire within you. Of course, there is no shortage of things in the world to tempt us to sin.

Likewise, the snake in the Garden of Eden was not Satan either, though confused Christians think it was. The snake had his own motivations, which I will not go into now. He was what the Torah calls a "Seducer".

None of us are capable of destroying Satan. What we are expected and commanded to do is to gain the upper hand over our personal Satans. And Hashem helps us do this, constantly. The Talmud says that the Evil Inclination constantly attempts to destroy us spiritually, and Hashem constantly helps us and gives us the means with which to overcome our Evil Inclinations.

When this world comes to an end, and the Next World begins, the Day of Judgment will take place. After that, Satan's work will be done.
There will no longer be any need for a Tempting Angel. Satan will cease to exist. It will not be a sad day at all.

Nor will it be unfair treatment of Satan. It will be like turning off a machine. Angels are not like humans, with human emotions and desires. They exist merely to follow Hashem's instructions, for the greater glory of Hashem.

That's the reason we exist too -- to follow Hashem's instructions for the greater glory of Hashem. So Satan was created to struggle against us, and we were put into this world to struggle against Satan.

But that was not the purpose of our being created. When the struggle is over we will begin to receive the reward for having struggled. We will be brought in to the Next World, and the struggle will end.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Bobson,  are you saying that in Job an angel killed Jobs family?

[WhiteWings]

So, no, Satan does not wear a red suit, or carry a trident.

He surely does!
(http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/bsd%20linux%20devil.JPG)

Likewise, the snake in the Garden of Eden was not Satan either, though confused Christians think it was. The snake had his own motivations, which I will not go into now. He was what the Torah calls a "Seducer".

More confusion  :sigh:

None of us are capable of destroying Satan. What we are expected and commanded to do is to gain the upper hand over our personal Satans. And Hashem helps us do this, constantly. The Talmud says that the Evil Inclination constantly attempts to destroy us spiritually, and Hashem constantly helps us and gives us the means with which to overcome our Evil Inclinations.

That sounds like a battle between good and evil. A managed purposeful battle but still a battle...

[Molly]

Here the Pharisees refer to Satan as the prince, meaning the ruler,  of the devils--


Matthew 9:34
But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.


"devil"
G1140
δαιμόνιον
daimonion
dahee-mon'-ee-on
Neuter of a derivative of G1142; a daemonic being; by extension a deity: - devil, god.



Here, the Pharisees show that they have a familiar name for Satan--

Matthew 12:24
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.


Beelzebub
G954
Βεελζεβούλ
Beelzeboul
beh-el-zeb-ool'
Of Chaldee origin (by parody upon [H1176]); dung god; Beelzebul, a name of Satan: - Beelzebub.


in the Hebrew--

H1176
בּעל זבוּב
ba‛al zebûb
bah'-al zeb-oob'
From H1168 and H2070; Baal of (the) Fly; Baal Zebub, a special deity of the Ekronites: - Baal-zebub.


Sounds like the Pharisees considered Satan a 'god,' not an angel.

The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.

Your Rabbi is saying that Satan is one of God's angels.  That means he considers him a separate entity.  So now we could say that your Rabbi and the Pharisees agree that Satan is a being that is independent of man.


In Jude, we have a dispute between the archangel Michael and Satan over the body of Moses.   Here Michael treats Satan with respect, asking for the Lord to rebuke him, implying Satan is more powerful than Michael.


9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
--Jude 1


And here is talk about rebelling angels--

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

--Jude 1