TALK ABOUT THE HARD THINGS: NDE-OBE-VISIONS-BLIND PEOPLE SEE IN NDE

[annuit coeptis]

*/quote I suppose one of the things that I'm asking is, how do people here, who subscribe to UR view these experiences from the point of view that many if not most, do not include the presence of Jesus Christ? /quote

In my thinking, JC or God can be found in "all things" and not just a bible. people who never spoke English or some tribe on an island in the so. sea could be saved by knowing what is Love. They may call out to a thing out side of "self" for help, and experience Love and this love is God.

[WhiteWings]

ANS:Maybe. I just think that the NDEs where people see "concepts" that are familiar to them is a perfect scenario...let's keep in mind that there are tens of thousands of people that die EVERY HOUR...it would seem to me that there needs to be a little more of an automatic system in place than everyone seeing Jesus...of which most would be so confused they wouldn't know what to do.

Unless we arrive in a empty place and lateron move to the real stuff. There are so many ways I can think of. But nothing more than speculation

Whitewings:Did they say how long the punishment lasts? Their believe is somewhere between 0-12 months. Right?
ANS:Yes, that's right. The rabbis all told me that the longest it is possible to be in "gehinnom", their place of spiritual correction, is 12 months...this is their theology. Personally, I don't believe that anyone is burned for any reason at all...nor are they punished just for the sake of punishment either. Correction, learning and understanding takes place perfectly in the life review...in my opinion.

But Jews are not speaking about burning. Right? It was an honor to be buried in the correct way. Criminals and outcasts were burned in Gehenna like garbage. For ETs Gehanna stands for torture and fire. I think for Jews it's stand for deep shame. And the loop back video likely is lots of shame....

Let me ask you one thing...from what you feel that you personally know...do you feel that this "devil" exists?

Yes. Satan is mentioned many times. Snake and dragon. And more directly in the testing of Job. What I don't believe is that satan is gonna be a the ruler of the lava pit. Or that he looks like half goat. I'm not sure how to picture satan. So spirit being perhaps.

But I'm not the one you should ask because I'm a seeking semi-atheist.
:omg:

[WhiteWings]

About the 12 months. Do you have any info how they reached that conclusion? Based on what verses etc.

[Bobson]

By the way Whitewings...I found out that there is a new book coming out this summer. You might like it...it's called "Between Two Worlds" by Raymond Moody MD with Paul Perry. What is it about? It's about SHARED death experiences...in other words people who are with someone who dies actually SEE THE SAME THINGS AS THE PERSON WHO DIED...including seeing their life review and seeing other deceased loved ones coming to meet the person, when a "portal" to another world opens up.

In other words what the person who has died is seeing, is also seen by others who are with them! I guess that should officially eliminate the "hallucination" excuse of skeptics.
I hope it was OK to post the name of that book here...I don't remember if that's allowed or not.

[Bobson]

Oh and I forgot to metion Whitewings...the rabbis explained gehinnom (in their belief) as a place one goes only if they are in need of "spiritual correction"...they never said anything about a literal burning. I never thought to ask how they arrived at the "12 month longest" scenario...I'll ask about it. God bless and surround you and those you love, with love.

[Bobson]

And just to clarify...I'm not talking about "the satan"...I'm talking about "devil"...they are two completely different things...the Jews say they have "the satan", but they also say that "the satan" is not a "devil"...they say "the satan" is working for God and not fighting against God...they say "devil" does not exist...they also say this:

Each of us every day fights with the Satan. We all have temptations, throughout the day. But we, as the Children of Israel, have the power to overcome even angels, if we work at it. Therefore, the Talmud says that men are greater than angels, for we can fight with an angel (Satan) and win.

Satan is not, as the Christians think, a rebellious angel. How impossible. The angels are spiritual and holy, without any physical or unholy presence, and the presence of  holiness permeates them entirely. Angels, unlike humans, are therefore constantly and fully aware of The Eternal's Presence everywhere. Could you stay dry in the ocean? An angel could not stop being holy, and can do no wrong. There is holiness everywhere in Creation, everywhere in the universe, and angels are made of the same thing. An angel could not stop serving G-d even if he tried.

[Molly]

Let me ask you one thing...from what you feel that you personally know...do you feel that this "devil" exists? Personally, I don't think so...and I think the fact that the Jews reject the existence of a devil and say this devil is not present in their books is a confirmation of that.

I'm not sure I would rely on a Rabbi to explain to me what is in the Old Testament or to elucidate what the Hebrew priests of the Old Testament believed.  It's a different religion now.  Didn't they miss Jesus as the Messiah?  They were already relying on their own traditions rather than God's word when Jesus showed up.  Jesus tells them in Mat 23 that their house will be left desolate.  I just think you should read the Old Testament yourself for answers.

Why did you ignore what I said about the nachash?  Satan shows up in the third chapter of the Book.  Revelation confirms that the nachash--the old serpent, the devil, and the great dragon--are all one and the same.

There are people here who see the principal of satan as anyone who is adversarial to God, rather than a separate being.  You could search for those old threads if these people don't show up on this one.  I think you might find they agree with what you are saying.  [I would consider those who are adversarial to God, as the antichrist, myself.]

Let me ask you one thing...from what you feel that you personally know...do you feel that this "devil" exists?

Yes I do.

I will start off by saying that an NDE experience happened to me. I had no prior knowledge of NDEs or OBEs, etc. In other words, I saw myself from up near the ceiling looking down, was able to turn side to side, had peripheral vision, ,,

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

--1 Cor 15

..was drawn into a darkness, saw a light, stopped right in front of it, the brilliance of the light within the area of light is hard to explain because I don't have anything to compare it to.

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Satan is not, as the Christians think, a rebellious angel. How impossible. The angels are spiritual and holy, without any physical or unholy presence, and the presence of  holiness permeates them entirely.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

--Rev 12



Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

[friendofmankind]

By the way Whitewings...I found out that there is a new book coming out this summer. You might like it...it's called "Between Two Worlds" by Raymond Moody MD with Paul Perry. What is it about? It's about SHARED death experiences...in other words people who are with someone who dies actually SEE THE SAME THINGS AS THE PERSON WHO DIED...including seeing their life review and seeing other deceased loved ones coming to meet the person, when a "portal" to another world opens up.

In other words what the person who has died is seeing, is also seen by others who are with them! I guess that should officially eliminate the "hallucination" excuse of skeptics.
I hope it was OK to post the name of that book here...I don't remember if that's allowed or not.

Bobson...This is in no way a 'dig' at you.
But it seems your quite prepared to believe what the Howard Sterns and the Raymond Moodys of the world believe, no matter how 'far' removed they go away from science.
NDES have 'never' been proven.  Ever.
We have a few scientists from the past saying they 'proved' it (Crookes etc), but their 'proof' turned out to be images such as this http://www.prairieghosts.com/spr1.jpg which real science has proved were double exposed photos etc.
As for Howard Stern, well fair enough...Anyone can see he was in an accident, but what does that prove?  Anyone can say they died and went here and did this and that and make a tonne of money...Take Bill Wiese for example - http://thegreatrealization.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/man-who-claims-he-went-to-hell-scams-christians/
Whom L Ray Smith completely debunked on utube, showing him up for the money greedy fraud he is - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3updz1KalQ
Raymond Moody believes in the manifestation of spirits in his psychomanteum. http://www.psychomanteum.com/
Now if these things are all true, why doesn't the world know about them?  Why not 'prove' it to the world?
For years these men, such as Michael Roll have been saying -
"We can prove it! We WILL prove it!"  For YEARS!!!  They have still YET to 'prove' it.

So what I'm saying is this.  How can you believe one person over another?  Why pick and choose?  Do you know all these people personally?  Do you know what 'agenda' they may have had to make something up?  You seem quick to judge certain things and super fast to believe in what I would call 'nonsense' with no scientific basis or basis in reality at all.
For example you said:-

in other words people who are with someone who dies actually SEE THE SAME THINGS AS THE PERSON WHO DIED...including seeing their life review and seeing other deceased loved ones coming to meet the person, when a "portal" to another world opens up.
In other words what the person who has died is seeing, is also seen by others who are with them! I guess that should officially eliminate the "hallucination" excuse of skeptics.

Your use of capital letters shows your a true believer in this stuff...That your willing to accept what one man (Moody) says without any evidence and then you say that this should officially eliminate the hallucination excuse of the skeptics.....Eh?  How is that possible?  Because Dr Moody said it?

Heres an idea...Why doesnt Dr Moody 'prove' it and put his money where his mouth is.  He says he has proof...Roll says he has proof, yet they have never produced any whatsoever...All they do is bring out a book every few years telling the world they have proof but never actually proving anything.

[Bobson]

MOLLY:I'm not sure I would rely on a Rabbi to explain to me what is in the Old Testament or to elucidate what the Hebrew priests of the Old Testament believed.  It's a different religion now.  Didn't they miss Jesus as the Messiah?

ANS:Yes, I guess they did. However, I don't see that necessarily being relevant. What the Jews say about Jesus Christ is sort of irrelevant to me. But this part of "devil" is just like "hell" to me which can't be "proven" in the old testament..I don't understand why "devil" shouldn't be able to be proven with old testament as well...and from what I can see there is no proof of the devil's existence in there...the encounter with Job certainly doesn't sound like a rebelling devil to me, it sounds like "the satan" that the Jews are speaking about...how did he get back into the kingdom he was kicked out of? It sounds like a being who is working for God and they don't appear to be arch-enemies. Did you read the other posts as to the explanation of Lucifer and the Babylonian king?

MOLLY: I just think you should read the Old Testament yourself for answers.

ANS:The problem is that the old testament does not seem to line up with it's equivalent, as I understand...the tanakh. This reinforces my suspicions that a "devil" might not exist...and I would really like to get to the bottom of it...I also don't see how a devil could exist without a hell...and I find it hard to reconcile myself to a God who would cast out a supernatural devil with a lot of power thus causing humans to be tormented, and then punish those humans after they have fallen victim to this devil...when God should have known better to begin with. I strongly suspect that this supernatural "devil" who wields all this independant power does not exist...yet I could conceive that "the satan" as the Jews describe it...does exist.

MOLLY: Revelation confirms that the nachash--the old serpent, the devil, and the great dragon--are all one and the same.

ANS:Revelation is a dream...also it was written after the Jewish version of the old testament so it doesn't really prove anything to me other than the writer of Revelation already believed in a "devil" that seems to be foreign to the entire OT/Tanakh.

MOLLY: There are people here who see the principal of satan as anyone who is adversarial to God, rather than a separate being.  You could search for those old threads if these people don't show up on this one.  I think you might find they agree with what you are saying.

ANS:Thank you Molly...would you be able to point me to one of those threads that are speaking about this and outline their views on this? The way that you have described "satan" here in your last part, seems to be very similar to what they Jews say.

MOLLY: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

ANS:Again, I would have to say, did you read the articles I posted on Lucifer, fall, and the Babylonian king? Revelation just does not mean that much to me Molly because I can't find verification for this "devil" in the old testament which should be the same as the tanach...so I'm unable to just believe Revelation when there is no reference to this being in the OT/Tanach...and the reference to "satan" that is there is a lot different from a "devil" or a "dragon". Plus, as I understand from this website...Revelation is symbolism.

I don't mean to sound blasphemous...it's just that even the new testament to me should be able to hold at least some kind of corroboration with the OT/Tanach...after all, it's the same God. So unless I can find corroboration of a "devil" in the OT/Tanach, I'm not sure I'm able to state that a devil really exists despite all logic to the contrary, just because a "devil" is mentioned in the NT.

FRIENDOFMANKIND:But it seems your quite prepared to believe what the Howard Sterns and the Raymond Moodys of the world believe, no matter how 'far' removed they go away from science.
NDES have 'never' been proven.  Ever.

ANS:Would you please offer an alternative and logical explanation to the following:

1-People born blind can see and describe events and objects in NDEs
2-Conversations had by relatives in distant locations from the experiencer are later verified as correct
3-A former atheist scientist and doctor diagnoses a baby with a fractured hip while his body is in the morgue
4-Pam Reynolds has a deep NDE and even describes the instruments they were using on her brain aneurysm while she is monitored and has no heart beat and all of the blood is drained from her head...for all intents and purposes she  is dead. Neurologists can only say that it is inconceivable to them as to how this could occur.
5-People who are present with someone who doesn't have a NEAR death experience, but actually DIES for good...and sees the same thing as the person who has died beside them...including the spirit of the one who has just died
6-In death bed visions people see someone who they did not know had died...and it is confirmed by others

Bill Wiese's story is not a death experience. It's a weak argument to try to use Bill Wiese in this. Most likely Bill Wiese's imagination went wild...or else his own obsessive thoughts created an illusion for him...he believes it was real...but it was not.

FRIEND: Raymond Moody believes in the manifestation of spirits in his psychomanteum.

ANS: Please explain how these manifestations would be able to relay information previously unknown to those they manifested to, and later verified as correct, if it is nothing more than a hallucination. Also check the book "induced after death communication" by Dr. Al Botkin and get back to me with complete explanations for each of the accounts that contain verified information contained in it. in fact, one such expereince is captured on video, including the tleephone call to verify the information recieved.

FRIEND: Now if these things are all true, why doesn't the world know about them?  Why not 'prove' it to the world?

ANS:I am familiar with all of these things you have brought up. And I also feel that the reality of life after life has been proven so many times already, it's almost comical to hear someone say "prove it". I am seeking answers regarding the Bible and Jesus Christ...and that's why I'm here...I'm also not willing to just blindly believe things in a book that has many authors, filtered through the minds of humans, without some corroboration at least between it's own books. That's the difference...and that's why I'm interested in this subject...it's all supposed to be the same God...I assume when you think of "hell" you do not instantly accept what is written, and in fact, discover that the tanach does not contain hell nor the concept of eternal punishment...shouldn't the "devil" be held to the same scrutiny and standard? I'm not trying to invalidate Jesus Christ, and it does not matter to me what the Jews say about him...but it does matter to me what is in the tanach about a devil...because a powerful devil would be a pretty bad trick on God's part, to reveal the devil's existence thousands of years after the fact...just like hell.

FRIEND: Heres an idea...Why doesnt Dr Moody 'prove' it and put his money where his mouth is.  He says he has proof...Roll says he has proof, yet they have never produced any whatsoever...All they do is bring out a book every few years telling the world they have proof but never actually proving anything.

ANS: If you don't think it has already been proven then you haven't done enough homework yet. I don't say this in a challenging way, but I have 100+ gigs of various items that any rational person would have to conclude is enough evidence to constitute proof...perhaps you haven't searched diligently enough...or perhaps you simply CAN'T believe? There is a difference. You forget, that I was once an atheist...and I did not convert easily, I assure you. The problem is not a lack of proof...the problem is utter denial of the proof by pseudo-scientists and atheists who call themselves critical thinkers...but mainly they are only protecting their own beliefs...and atheism is a belief as well.

FRIEND: Your use of capital letters shows your a true believer in this stuff...That your willing to accept what one man (Moody) says without any evidence and then you say that this should officially eliminate the hallucination excuse of the skeptics.....Eh?  How is that possible?  Because Dr Moody said it?

ANS:Do you accept the existence of a supernatural devil because it's in the NT? Even if it's completely absent prior to that? No. I'm using Molly's Occam's Razor...it's the most logical conclusion to be drawn from the MOUNTAIN of evidence...of which continues to be denied, not by scientists, but pseudo-scientists...who wouldn't know proof if it stared them in the face. Would you consider the shared death experience of someone who dies as LOGICALLY explained as...a hallucination? What is ironic to me, Friend, is that you don't seem to be willing to hold the existence of a "devil" up to the same scrutiny as you do these other people and experiences...I'm trying to sort out Jesus Christ and the Bible...but I can't find a way to blindly believe things that don't make logical sense to me, and I can't find corroboration for in the books of the supposed keepers of the word. Hell wasn't there...and it seems very likely that the devil isn't there either...I was hoping someone could educate me on this...but the education will need to be more than "well it's in the new testament"...if it truly is, then it should be in the old testament as well as the tanach...and it does not seem to be there, from what I can tell. Are you willing to consider proof of a supernatural devil just because it's in the NT? Even the keepers of the word NEVER believed such a thing? Ever.
Sorry if I sounded aggressive, I don't mean to. I'm just typing in a hurry!!

[Bobson]

And, Friend, I still have't brought up Prof. Charles Tart, or Prof. Gary Shwartz either...along with 100+ gigs of more VERIFED information. I'm not really someone who is satisfied with stories that don't contain verfication from third persons...that's another reason I'm looking for cross reference to a "devil" in the Tanach and Talmud and Torah...and it's not there..so the fact that it is in the NT doesn't hold much water to me. I already posted some articles explaining these translations and so on, maybe no one has read them...or else they just assume a devil does exist...without holding it to the same standard as they do "hell". I'm not sure why this would be the case. I would very much like hear from UR people here who have also researched this, rather than simply believe in a "devil" because it's in the NT. Don't forget "hell" was in the NT as well as the "Christian" OT at one time too...but it really wasn't...we only believed it was...and for a very long time, I might add.

[WhiteWings]

MOLLY:I'm not sure I would rely on a Rabbi to explain to me what is in the Old Testament or to elucidate what the Hebrew priests of the Old Testament believed.  It's a different religion now.  Didn't they miss Jesus as the Messiah?

ANS:Yes, I guess they did. However, I don't see that necessarily being relevant. What the Jews say about Jesus Christ is sort of irrelevant to me. But this part of "devil" is just like "hell" to me which can't be "proven" in the old testament..I don't understand why "devil" shouldn't be able to be proven with old testament as well...and from what I can see there is no proof of the devil's existence in there...the encounter with Job certainly doesn't sound like a rebelling devil to me, it sounds like "the satan" that the Jews are speaking about...how did he get back into the kingdom he was kicked out of? It sounds like a being who is working for God and they don't appear to be arch-enemies. Did you read the other posts as to the explanation of Lucifer and the Babylonian king?

The Jews are not without flaws. But neither are Christians. If I had to choose to listen to the average Rabi or the average Pastor about the OT I would surely choose the Rabbi.
Just the fact that the OT is written in a old version of their own language gives them a great headstart. 'The Hebrew text has so many hidden 'word games' that got lost in translation.
The Jews may have overlooked the "big fact' Jesus but most Christians have overlooked the huge fact Father is not a monster...

[WhiteWings]

And, Friend, I still have't brought up Prof. Charles Tart, or Prof. Gary Shwartz either...along with 100+ gigs of more VERIFED information.

100 gigs sounds like movies... Titles? :winkgrin:

[Bobson]

Hi Friend...100 gigs of video clips, word documents, etc. All containing independant verification. I have amassed it over 3 years. I'm almost afraid to bring this up here..but, maybe just quickly...including the studies done by Prof. Gary Schwart using mediums.

[Bobson]

Whitewings:The Jews are not without flaws. But neither are Christians. If I had to choose to listen to the average Rabi or the average Pastor about the OT I would surely choose the Rabbi. Just the fact that the OT is written in a old version of their own language gives them a great headstart. 'The Hebrew text has so many hidden 'word games' that got lost in translation. The Jews may have overlooked the "big fact' Jesus but most Christians have overlooked the huge fact Father is not a monster...

ANS: Very well said in my opinion, Whitewings...for what it's worth, I agree with you.

[Bobson]

Whitewings, that book by Moody...the first chapter of it can be downloaded and read for free of charge, if you were interested in seeing the first chapter. The "Between Two Worlds" book.

[Molly]

MOLLY: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

ANS:Again, I would have to say, did you read the articles I posted on Lucifer, fall, and the Babylonian king? Revelation just does not mean that much to me Molly because I can't find verification for this "devil" in the old testament which should be the same as the tanach...so I'm unable to just believe Revelation when there is no reference to this being in the OT/Tanach...and the reference to "satan" that is there is a lot different from a "devil" or a "dragon". Plus, as I understand from this website...Revelation is symbolism.

There's a lot going on in the OT that people do not see because they are not reading the Hebrew.

There are all sorts of characters present that people do not even know about--the watchers, nephilim, etc and places, the abyss, the pit, etc.  These words all refer to specific beings or places that is lost to our understanding without the Hebrew, and without knowledge of the context.

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

--Job 1

Now we see here that Satan is a member of a group called 'the sons of God.'  Who is this group?  They are not celestial angels--

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

This phrase sons of God in the OT is 'bên 'ĕlôhı̂ym.'

In this context, these look to be minor gods, not angels.

There's a lot going on in the OT.


7 Remember the days of old;
  consider the years of many generations;
ask your father, and he will show you,
  your elders, and they will tell you.
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
  when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
  according to the number of the sons of God.

9But the LORD's portion is his people,
  Jacob his allotted heritage.

--Deut 32 [English standard version]



"heritage"

H5159
נחלה
nachălâh
nakh-al-aw'
From H5157 (in its usual sense); properly something inherited, that is, (abstractly) occupancy, or (concretely) an heirloom; generally an estate, patrimony or portion: - heritage, to inherit, inheritance, possession. Compare H5158.


We, the believers, are God's inheritance, his possession.

1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.



This below is Jesus speaking--And, he says this as he is sending out his disciples to the nations--

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

To me this means the battlefield has now changed from heaven to earth.

I think you can use the search option to find other threads on the subject of satan.

[Bobson]

Hello Molly, yes I see what you wrote. However I don't see this as any proof of the existence of a supernatural tormenting devil. Plus, I'm more interested in the Tanach about this than I am the Christian OT...if you read the posts I  made regarding Lucifer, the satan, and translations...you will understand why. I'm not really interested in the Christianized version of OT...because 'hell' ended up there as well...and now it looks like a 'devil' has ended up there as well.

For me, if the Jews say their writings do not contain any devil and they have never believed such a thing...then I wonder where it came from? And the Christian OT does not mean that much to me...hell was in there at one time too...I was hoping to hear from those who had actually done that kind of research and interested in what they discovered...honestly I can't find a way to believe a supernatural demon appeared on the scene out of nowhere and really does exist...I also find it somewhat of a stretch to think that this supernatural devil demon really WAS revealed to the Jews but they just missed it. They certainly didn't miss "the satan" though...how would they miss something as important as a supernatural tormenting devil from the beginning of their revelations from what is supposed to be the same God as the Christians have.

If this supernatural devil demon who is warring with God (how could he be so stupid??) is not present in the Jewish Torah, Talmud or Tanach...then it seems logical to conclude that any reference to this powerful super demon in the NT is either a fabrication of the Church somewhere along the way, maybe because they soaked it up from pagan sources like the Egyptians, or else they had an agenda and wanted a super-devil to support a "fall", "hell" and of course with hell, you need a ruler...maybe that's how the devil was born...or it has been misunderstood and mistranslated...one of the two seems to be the only logical conclusion. But I would really like to hear from others who have researched this thoroughly with Jewish sources, etc. and what their conclusions were. Of course, if there is no devil then that throws a monkey wrench into the entire "demons" thing as well...at least the typical "Christian" demons.

Rember the bottom line is that  there is this from the Jews:


As one sees in Job, Satan actually comes to the very kingdom he is supposed to be cast out from.
In the Bible there is also verses which show that it is God, the Creator and Ruler of the whole universe, who is responsible for both the Good and the Bad, and not a devil or god of the underworld:

I am the Eternal, and there is none else, there is no god beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Eternal, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Eternal do all these things. [Isaiah 45:5-7]

For God, the Bible, and for Judaism, to have an entity that competes with God, that has power and authority of his own in opposition to God, is to violate the basic idea of monotheism.

God creates light and darkness...God creates evil...why didn't he tell the Jews that the devil is doing it when he had a perfect opportunity to do so right there?

[Bobson]

Hello Molly, I find it difficult to believe that rabbis who spend their whole life in these books of theirs, don't really know what's going on! If they don't know what's going on then who on earth would? The Christians? Why would the Christians have a better idea of what's going on than the thousands of years of rabbis? Including the very recipients of these messges at the beginning? Can they possibly not know what's going on? What happened to Occam's Razor?  :happy3:

It will be quite disturbing if one finds out that there is no devil as well as no hell...and if it isn't contained in any Jewish Holy Books then it would seem that Jesus really DID NOT say those words and someone put them in his mouth, after all, didn't they do that with "hell"? Most Christians today still say that "Jesus talked about hell more than he did heaven" but in actuality he never spoke of it once. Plus, how would he speak of a concept (hell/eternal punishment) when he was a Jew himself and it would have been completely foreign to his own people? Did he speak of a supernatural powerful tormenting devil that would also have been completely foreign to his own people? In either case, they wouldn't have had any idea what he was even talking about...or else the church misunderstood what he was saying or mistranslated something, either innocently or purposefully.

Also, the Jews denial of a devil and their description of a 'satan' sounds to me to be very, very suspiciously like what Jesus Christ was talking about when he said to Peter "Get behind me satan"...was he talking to the devil himself? Or was he talking to Peter and insisting that he overcome "the hinderer"..."the satan"...the angel with a dirty job? I don't know, but it sounds quite a bit like he was using 'satan' in the same context as what the Jews are stating...

[friendofmankind]

ANS:Would you please offer an alternative and logical explanation to the following:

1-People born blind can see and describe events and objects in NDEs

Prove it.  If it was proven, everyone would believe it, but it cant be proven...

2-Conversations had by relatives in distant locations from the experiencer are later verified as correct

Lol ah it MUST be true then...People never lie after all...

3-A former atheist scientist and doctor diagnoses a baby with a fractured hip while his body is in the morgue
4-Pam Reynolds has a deep NDE and even describes the instruments they were using on her brain aneurysm while she is monitored and has no heart beat and all of the blood is drained from her head...for all intents and purposes she  is dead. Neurologists can only say that it is inconceivable to them as to how this could occur.
5-People who are present with someone who doesn't have a NEAR death experience, but actually DIES for good...and sees the same thing as the person who has died beside them...including the spirit of the one who has just died
6-In death bed visions people see someone who they did not know had died...and it is confirmed by others

Again, no proof...None at all, only a vast lack of it.
Actually the truth is that 90% of people who have died saw NOTHING.  They had no NDE, no lights, nowt!
Also, most people who have seen ghosts, orbs, blah blah blah, are normally mentally unstable.
Also most people who have ever come up with a startling ghost photo or spectacular NDE etc, are afterwards proven to be fakes, as is the case of most NDE 'scientists'.

Bill Wiese's story is not a death experience. It's a weak argument to try to use Bill Wiese in this. Most likely Bill Wiese's imagination went wild...or else his own obsessive thoughts created an illusion for him...he believes it was real...but it was not.

So you dont believe Bill, well thats a start!

ANS: Please explain how these manifestations would be able to relay information previously unknown to those they manifested to, and later verified as correct, if it is nothing more than a hallucination. Also check the book "induced after death communication" by Dr. Al Botkin and get back to me with complete explanations for each of the accounts that contain verified information contained in it. in fact, one such expereince is captured on video, including the tleephone call to verify the information recieved.

Again a huge lack of evidence...All we have is a 'DR's' side of the story, as for the video, it proves nothing, nor the telephone call, it could have been (and no doubt was) set up.
Under any proper scientific study, all of these things have been and would be proven false no doubt.

ANS:I am familiar with all of these things you have brought up. And I also feel that the reality of life after life has been proven so many times already, it's almost comical to hear someone say "prove it". I am seeking answers regarding the Bible and Jesus Christ...and that's why I'm here...I'm also not willing to just blindly believe things in a book that has many authors, filtered through the minds of humans, without some corroboration at least between it's own books. That's the difference...and that's why I'm interested in this subject...it's all supposed to be the same God...I assume when you think of "hell" you do not instantly accept what is written, and in fact, discover that the tanach does not contain hell nor the concept of eternal punishment...shouldn't the "devil" be held to the same scrutiny and standard? I'm not trying to invalidate Jesus Christ, and it does not matter to me what the Jews say about him...but it does matter to me what is in the tanach about a devil...because a powerful devil would be a pretty bad trick on God's part, to reveal the devil's existence thousands of years after the fact...just like hell.


ANS: If you don't think it has already been proven then you haven't done enough homework yet. I don't say this in a challenging way, but I have 100+ gigs of various items that any rational person would have to conclude is enough evidence to constitute proof...perhaps you haven't searched diligently enough...or perhaps you simply CAN'T believe? There is a difference. You forget, that I was once an atheist...and I did not convert easily, I assure you. The problem is not a lack of proof...the problem is utter denial of the proof by pseudo-scientists and atheists who call themselves critical thinkers...but mainly they are only protecting their own beliefs...and atheism is a belief as well.

FRIEND: Your use of capital letters shows your a true believer in this stuff...That your willing to accept what one man (Moody) says without any evidence and then you say that this should officially eliminate the hallucination excuse of the skeptics.....Eh?  How is that possible?  Because Dr Moody said it?

ANS:Do you accept the existence of a supernatural devil because it's in the NT? Even if it's completely absent prior to that? No. I'm using Molly's Occam's Razor...it's the most logical conclusion to be drawn from the MOUNTAIN of evidence...of which continues to be denied, not by scientists, but pseudo-scientists...who wouldn't know proof if it stared them in the face. Would you consider the shared death experience of someone who dies as LOGICALLY explained as...a hallucination? What is ironic to me, Friend, is that you don't seem to be willing to hold the existence of a "devil" up to the same scrutiny as you do these other people and experiences...I'm trying to sort out Jesus Christ and the Bible...but I can't find a way to blindly believe things that don't make logical sense to me, and I can't find corroboration for in the books of the supposed keepers of the word. Hell wasn't there...and it seems very likely that the devil isn't there either...I was hoping someone could educate me on this...but the education will need to be more than "well it's in the new testament"...if it truly is, then it should be in the old testament as well as the tanach...and it does not seem to be there, from what I can tell. Are you willing to consider proof of a supernatural devil just because it's in the NT? Even the keepers of the word NEVER believed such a thing? Ever.
Sorry if I sounded aggressive, I don't mean to. I'm just typing in a hurry!!

There is no proof for life after death.
Thats the 'fact' here.  But your touting it as 'fact'...So there is no debate left!
Believe what you like! I was under the immpression you were after honest answers.

Ill readily admit that there is a large stack of good reasoning towards there being life after death, but there is equally a large stack of good reasoning against there NOT being life after death.  (90% of people who have died did not have an NDE for one example)...The remaining 10% are normaly not everyday sane-minded people (i mean no offence by this, but just listen to some of the callers on radio shows such as coast to coast who speak of their NDE, or listen to some peoples NDES on utube and tell me if they come over as being normal rational people, they normally come across as very loud, brash, mad, or all three), or the 10% end up writing a bestseller about their little trip through fairyland.

Believe it or not, I believe in life after death.  But to be honest, the Raymond Moodys and Michael Rolls with their so called 'evidence' actually makes most people question if their is life after death, because they've said theyve had proof for about 20-30 years, and so far they havent proved anything...It just shows them up as liars.
If they have proof...show it.  Then noone will laugh at them anymore since they seem to get really upset when people question them....Well, no wonder people question them!  30 year saying they have evidence and not a drop of it has emerged!!

Its like the people I tell i have seen a UFO too.  - They go online and look at the fake photos of ufos by all those greedy people out to write books and make money from their forgeries and the people i told come back to me and say "You must be mad to believe in that crap"...Then they dont believe in it because of all the falseness and fakeness attatched to it and the so called people who have 'proof' but never actually show any.

People like Moody etc seem to be ruining it for everyone else, by continuously saying they have proof and never presenting it and any rational mind has to assume that they might well just be out to make money from the gullible.

[Molly]

Plus, I'm more interested in the Tanach about this than I am the Christian OT...if you read the posts I  made regarding Lucifer, the satan, and translations...you will understand why. I'm not really interested in the Christianized version of OT...because 'hell' ended up there as well...and now it looks like a 'devil' has ended up there as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  The English translations may be different but--for the most part--the Hebrew should be the same.

Maybe you mean to say the English translation of certain words leading to a particular general understanding among the Christians.  Solution--read it in Hebrew, easy to do these days.

The Talmud is not the word of God--it is the tradition of men.  The Torah is the word of God and the same book for Jews and Christians.

"The Torah is a name used in Judaism for the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Masoretic Text or the Miqra."

The tanakh--I'm not sure what that is--Sounds like our entire OT--the same thing as the Torah--Although maybe the Torah just refers to the first five books?


Tanakh--"the Jewish scriptures which consist of three divisions--the Torah and the Prophets and the Writings "



"The Torah ("Teaching", also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nevi'im ("Prophets") and Ketuvim ("Writings")—hence TaNaKh. The name "Miqra" (מקרא) is a Hebrew word for the Tanakh, meaning "that which is read", derived from the word qara "קרא" meaning to read aloud. The elements of the Tanakh are incorporated in various forms in Christian Bibles, in which, with some variations, it is called the "Old Testament". The Old Testament does not use the traditional Hebrew subdivisions, though the distinction "Law and the Prophets" is used several times in the New Testament.[1]"

For God, the Bible, and for Judaism, to have an entity that competes with God, that has power and authority of his own in opposition to God, is to violate the basic idea of monotheism

I wouldn't say this is exactly how I would put it.  Remember the Jews themselves worshipped other gods often in the OT. An incident with a calf comes to mind. Thus the commandment--

Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


But, some here might say these other 'gods' are the vain imaginations of men.  I disagree with that.

If this supernatural devil demon who is warring with God (how could he be so stupid??)

Indeed!

Gen 3 says he was cunning.  No one ever said he was smart.


But there is a spiritual war going on nonetheless--



10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

--Eph 6

[Bobson]

FRIENDOFMANKIND: Respectfully, I'm not going to answer your post because I have no interest in turning this into an argument with someone who will never be persuaded no matter what they see or hear. What you believe about this is of no significance to me...you are the one it is significant to. I could show you video after video, document after document and you will only continue to deny so there is no point. So I would ask you to just drop it with me, I don't have the time or the patience.

[Paul Hazelwood]

NDE's are simple to me.

The mountain of data is evidence that something outside of the observable realm we live in exists and the evidence also suggests what exists is a realm of life.


However, where the Bull S*** comes in is when people use this to leverage our emotions to a specific way to believe as if they have seen something that makes their personal doctrine true and others must believe those specifics. 

[Molly]

Hello Molly, I find it difficult to believe that rabbis who spend their whole life in these books of theirs, don't really know what's going on! If they don't know what's going on then who on earth would? The Christians? Why would the Christians have a better idea of what's going on than the thousands of years of rabbis? Including the very recipients of these messges at the beginning? Can they possibly not know what's going on? What happened to Occam's Razor?

well, all I can say is, when I first started really studying the OT, I asked myself--How did these people miss Jesus?  He is all over the OT.  He is the fulfillment of hundreds of predictions in the OT.  Believe me, either the NT is all lies or these people are blind as bats.  My thinking is most Jews do not read the entire OT.  My goodness, David even describes Jesus on the cross in one of his Psalms.  How do they explain that?

But God predicted it would happen that way--


Matthew 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

[Bobson]

Hello Molly,

But there is a spiritual war going on nonetheless--

-Well maybe, but it doesn't look like it's with a devil or his fallen angels to me...again, the NT is sort of irrelevant to me on this subject because I want to cross reference something as important as a powerful "devil" with the Jewish equivalent of the OT...if it does not correspond then it would strongly seem something is wrong.

I also do not understand why when God told his people that HE creates light and darkness, HE creates evil...why he did not reveal this "devil's" role in it very clearly...the Jews would claim that he did...and they would say that is "the satan"...but they also say the satan is certainly not a devil with totally independant power.

It still sounds to me a bit like the church needed a ruler for 'hell'...and it got one...the devil.

Have you read the entire post about the explanation of Lucifer, devil, morning start, etc.? Did you read all of that? What is the logical rebuttal to that article, without using the NT as 'proof' of a devil? A good rebuttal to that article would go a long way for the devil...but it seems like it will have to come from the Jewish equivalent of the OT...I don't trust the Christian OT ever since I found out about the "hell" situation. If the devil existed, he couldn't have just come into existence 2000 years ago...and it doesn't seem that reasonable to me that the jews understood 'the satan' but missed the all powerful tormenting devil...especially when God had a perfect opportunity to explain it when he said that HE is the one who creates evil.

[friendofmankind]

FRIENDOFMANKIND: Respectfully, I'm not going to answer your post because I have no interest in turning this into an argument with someone who will never be persuaded no matter what they see or hear. What you believe about this is of no significance to me...you are the one it is significant to. I could show you video after video, document after document and you will only continue to deny so there is no point. So I would ask you to just drop it with me, I don't have the time or the patience.

I believe in life after death friend...I just dont believe Dr Moody, or Michael Rolls of the world. They have been saying they have 'proof' for over 30 years, and still havent given any.  All your doing by touting their stuff as proof, is the same as what they are doing...Saying there is proof when there actually isnt, and helping them sell books into the bargain.

I believe the small minority of people when they say they have had an NDE, but I also believe the massive bunch of people (90%+) that say that when they died there was nothing.

Respect.
It was never an argument, i dont argue with people...I merely questioned your belief in Ray Moodys 'lack of proof'.