TALK ABOUT THE HARD THINGS: NDE-OBE-VISIONS-BLIND PEOPLE SEE IN NDE

[Molly]

8And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
9According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.


Exodus 25:29
And thou shalt make the dishes thereof, and spoons thereof, and covers thereof, and bowls thereof, to cover withal: of pure gold shalt thou make them.


"bowl"

H4518
מנקּית
menaqqı̂yth
men-ak-keeth'
From H5352; a sacrificial basin (for holding blood): - bowl.




2 Timothy 2:20
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.


"vessel"


G4632
σκεῦος
skeuos
skyoo'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a vessel, implement, equipment or apparatus (literally or figuratively [specifically a wife as contributing to the usefulness of the husband]): - goods, sail, stuff, vessel.




Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

[Bobson]

QUESTION:Are you a Jew who has had a near death type experience where you left your body?

ANS: No, I'm not a Jew. Yes, this experience has happened to me and it was confusing at first because I did not see how such a thing as viewing yourself and being able to look around the room, from an impossible vantage point above the body, could be possible. What happened next was absolutely stunning...I was intact, functioning, thinking rationally and normally throughout, was drawn into darkness, saw a light, came right up to it and it seemed that there was another world that was "brilliant", there were people there and one of them spoke with me. However, as I said, I am not a Jew.

COMMENT: That hell is not eternal (there is a way out of it), that we reap what we sow, that we are judged, that all people eventually reach higher planes (until God is all and in all as the Bible teaches), and that (as people who have had an NDE have said), "God is love, or the 'creator' is love...The reason to live is 'love'" and so on.
ANS: It seems to me that there is no judgement other than what one imposes on themselves. In fact, in this experience, one "becomes" the other people who you have interacted with...and so you feel everything that those others did, positive or negative, and you also "become" the others who your actions, words and thoughts have "rippled" down to. This also seems to me to be a PERFECT form of "judgement" because no God is judging you...which in essence would mean that God actually DOES follow his own advice of "judge not lest you be judged"...you judge yourself and what could be more effective than that? I also wonder if it might also be true that you are already forgiven...but can you forgive yourself? Once you fully understand that you are already forgiven, and you can forgive yourself as well, you then more fully understand the real nature of "love". This also would seem to negate "punishment" so to speak...I often wonder exactly what purpose "punishment" would serve except the human desire to inflict suffering on someone else in order to appease themselves because they themselves have suffered? Surely a God would be beyond such human reasoning? Any "punishment" would be inflicted on you by YOU not by any God...until you realize that are already forgiven and accept it...and thus, understand what "love" really means.

COMMENT: I have a friend who saw one in 1968 over a military base.  Why would you assume it's not our own technology?  Isn't the simplest explanation always the best?  Occam's razor.

ANS: Respectfully, Molly, I feel that you are oversimplifying things. Yes, Occam's razor might be true in some cases, perhaps even many cases, but that does not mean it is some kind of an absolute law. I am usually indifferent to UFOs but I do not think that everyone who claims to have seen one is simply mistaken, or making it up. I recently saw video footage of a few particular doctors who have removed objects that people claimed were "implanted" in them by UFO beings...when analyzed at an independant laboratory, the result that came back was that the material analyzed was unknown to science. How can this be?

I wish the poster who spoke of the Tibetan Book Of The Dead would clarify what he knows and understands about this book...as I understand it, this book seems to describe what is happening in NDEs extensively and even seems to be relatively accurate...although I do not claim to be an expert. To me, it seems that NDEs actually seem to be contrary to the Bible, not supported by it. NDEs virtually never refer to being judged by a God or by Jesus Christ...but rather, they speak of judging themselves. Also the Tibetan Book Of The Dead describes "projections" of reality, which sort of seems to be happening in NDEs, it speaks of "white light", etc. It also seems to speak of "demons" as being in your "mind"...a projection of your mind...not that they are "real". Does the earlier poster have knowledge that he could share about this book, etc.?
I'm also not convinced that God is a person however I'm open to be convinced otherwise. I have seen two different translations of...."God is A spirit" and "God IS spirit". When I see this I see a HUGE difference, akin to "God IS love"....not that God is FULL of love or lovING..but IS love. Now, if God is A spirit then that's pretty small...but it God IS spirit, then that is much bigger and encompasses ALL of spirit...can anyone comment on this please?

I would also like to know more about the theology part of things...I do not understand why the Jews have a "hinderer" (THE satan) and Christendom has a DEVIL (named satan)...For the Jews this "satan" has no power in and of himself at all, yet for Christians this "devil" is nearly as powerful as their God himself...and has been cast out by God, and permitted to torment humans, which then results in their punishment...I do not understand this. How did the hinderer, the satan, suddenly become a powerful devil? As I said, the God of the Jews and Christians is supposed to be the same, yet each God seems so different, how could God possibly have arrived at the Christian God from such a different God of the Jews? How does a devil who is cast out, suddenly return to the very kingdom he is supposed to be cast out from, in Job? The Jews (and many others) claim that there was no "fall" at all...that the story is referring to a Babylonian king who persecuted the Jews...how can this become a devil? Yet in the new testament this "devil" makes a strong appearance and seems to have enough power on his own to be able to promise Jesus Christ all the world's kingdoms if he will worship him? This does not sound at all like the original "the satan" of the old testament or the tanakh..how can this be?

I do not write all of this to challenge anyone...I'm simply looking for explanations from people.

[Bobson]

A POSTING TO SUMMARIZE MY EARLIER QUESTIONS:

I suppose one of the things that I'm asking is, how do people here, who subscribe to UR view these experiences from the point of view that many if not most, do not include the presence of Jesus Christ?

How do we separate the fact from fiction, in your opinion? I know most Christians will say it has to have Jesus in it or be absolutely consistent with the Bible or it is not valid. I must admit that this doesn't make a lot of sense to me because I have a hard time fathoming that a God could be entirely contained in any book...especially a book filtered through the minds of people, and subject to those same people's desires and wishes.

MOLLY: First of all, let me say, I believe you--I have experienced similar myself, twice.  Both experiences for me were benign and did not include any other presence than myself.
ANS: Yes, Molly, the experienced happened to me and it was tremendously profound...I couldn't understand how it was possible and so I was confused at first. Could you expand a bit on exactly what happened to you?

MOLLY: Even the demons know who he is and tremble at his name.
ANS: What I don't understand is how there can possibly be demons because this implies that there was a "fall" and that a supernatural devil was kicked out of Heaven and he and his followers were permitted to wreak havoc on humanity, and then humanity gets punished for falling victim to them! How can there be a fall when this Lucifer is a Latin word that is foreign to the Jews? How can the story of a fallen Babylonian king suddenly become a supernatural devil? If there is no devil then how can there be any such thing as a demon (followers of the devil)?

About judgment, NDEs, and the Bible...as I understand it nowhere in the Bible does it say "you shall judge yourself" yet this is exactly what appears to be happening in NDEs...how could that correspond to the Bible? And, in NDEs it seems that NO ONE is deemed to be "lost" forever...in fact, those who find themselves in darkness, etc. often are transported OUT of that darkness simply by DESIRING to be! I don't see how this corresponds with the Bible either.
If one uses the Bible as the sole guideline for NDEs then it would appear that all the Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, etc. are being tricked by a "devil"...yet in Hebrew, it seems that this devil does not exist.

I'm also starting to wonder if the only "hell" that exists (temporary or otherwise), only exists in the minds of people who believe it does in one way or another...or who have been exposed to the teaching of some kind of "hell" at some point in their life...this is why I have been referring to the Tibetan Book Of The Dead...and talking about "projections"...in other words that "hell" manifests itself to them in the afterlife.

Indeed the vast majority of NDEs, perhaps even all, seem to carry a message of the importance of "love"....kindness, loving actions, loving words, etc. I haven't seen any that imply the necessity of a particular belief...nor have I seen any that imply that God demands or REQUIRES the worshipping of Jesus Christ...I'm also not sure I understand why a God or Jesus Christ would feel it so necessary to be worshipped...although I can certainly understand that PEOPLE would see that as necessary, for various reasons.

As far as the comments on UFOs, and the comment of them being from the kingdom of darkness, I quote from Howard Storms NDE:

"When the review was finished they asked, "Do you want to ask any questions?" and I had a million questions."
"Asking them if there was life on other planets, their surprising answer was that the universe was full of life." The angels' responses were both visual and linguistic. In addition to their telepathic and extraordinarily clear communication, "the universe is FULL of LIFE!", they initiate a holographic tableau, a procession of intelligent life forms beginning with those that resemble the human form; then with increasing numbers, the forms are less and less humanoid in appearance, as the angels apparently impress their original point: the Universe is full of sentient life."

"Howard gets the point, so his next query becomes, "If there is all this life in the Universe, then why aren't we aware of it here on our own planet?" They told him that the Universe is teaming with life- not only in the physical world but even in other dimensions. The angels told of countless worlds they 'shepherded'."

"When asked about the lack of 'evidence' in our world of life from other worlds, he was told that we are visited, and by a number of different groups of beings, but that they must be very careful in their contact with us, because of our immaturity, naughtiness and to put it bluntly, sinfulness. Later in conversation Howard made reference to seeing images of worlds where beings lived in perfect harmony with one another and the creation, having 'grown up' and matured spiritually to the place where innate spiritual gifts could be unfolded."

"I asked them, which was the best religion. I was looking for an answer which was like, "Presbyterians." I figured these guys were all Christians. The answer I got was, "The best religion is the religion that brings you closest to God."

"They gradually educate us as spirit beings, and bring us into heaven. We grow and increase, and grow and increase, and shed the concerns, desires, and base animal stuff that we have been fighting much of our life. Earthly appetites melt away. It is no longer a struggle to fight them. We become who we truly are, which is part of the divine."

AS TO THE COMMENT ABOUT WHY NDEs CONTAIN DIFFERENT "CONCEPTS":

"I asked about death – what happens when we die? They said that when a loving person dies, angels come down to meet him, and they take him – gradually, at first, because it would be unbearable for that person to be instantly exposed to God. Knowing what's inside of every person, the angels don't have to prove anything by showing off. They know what each of us needs, so they provide that. In some cases it may be a heavenly meadow, and in another, something else. If a person needs to see a relative, the angels will bring that relative. If the person really likes jewels, they will show the person jewels. We see what is necessary for our introduction into the spirit world, and those things are real, in the heavenly, the divine sense."

"We could do much damage to the planet. And by the planet, they meant all of God's creation. Not just the people, but the animals, the trees, the birds, the insects, everything."

"They explained to me that I was very under-developed and that it would be of great benefit to return to my physical existence to learn. In my human life I would have an opportunity to grow so that the next time I was with them I would be more compatible. I would need to develop important characteristics to become like them and to be involved with the work that they do."

"They never gave me a direct mission or purpose. Could I build a shrine or cathedral for God? They said those monuments were for humanity. They wanted me to live my life to love people not things."

[peacemaker]

...that the world is flat was at one time a popular belief or false concept.

peacemaker

[WhiteWings]

Thank You WW for the cut paste high light lesson... A

At your service :thumbsup:

[Molly]

I am usually indifferent to UFOs but I do not think that everyone who claims to have seen one is simply mistaken, or making it up.

Just to be clear, I also believe that UFO's exist and believe those who have seen them, especially my friend whom I trust. UFO simply means it cannot be identified by the person who saw it. She described it as saucer shaped with lights, hovering soundlessly very low in the sky, and then suddenly shooting off at a high rate of speed, again without sound.  Now this person is as practical and down to earth as it gets, and would never make such a thing up.  And this was 40 years ago that she saw it.  I've also watched many testimonies of the disclosure project, which can be seen online.  What I was saying was--I think these are our own technology, our own military, not aliens from other planets.  This puts a very advanced technology into the hands of a very few people, with the rest of us left to dance around our campfires--isn't that the way human history has always happened? The occult is only hidden knowledge.  But, if you go back over a hundred years ago, when scientists were still allowed to talk about what they were doing, and not required to lie, you can readily see how they might have gotten from there to here by expanding on the principles they were discovering then.

[WhiteWings]

It was somewhat confusing at first because when it happened I was an atheist...maybe an agnostic, at best. I was very puzzled as to how it could be possible that I had a vantage point from up above myself and able to look around because this was supposed to be impossible! What happened after that continued to be puzzling because I still could not see how any of it was possible...yet it was exhilarating and fascinating at the same time...it was a very logical and orderly sequence of events. In order to write this off as a hallucination of some kind I would have to write off the rest of my entire life as a hallucination.

Heaven and hell NDEs not, so they can be real or just a dream.
Medical NDEs are proven. But what exactly do they prove? Christianity? Reincarnation? I trick everyone can do after another 10000 years of evolution?

I suppose one of the things that I'm asking is, how do people here, who subscribe to UR view these experiences from the point of view that many if not most, do not include the presence of Jesus Christ?

Maybe because for more hell and heaven are more important than Jesus?

Although I'm willing to say that some of these experiences may not be "true" and some people may even concoct them for the sake of fame...however, the other reason I'm bringing this up is because the Tibetan Book of The Dead seems to give a description of what one encounters after dying, that is really quite similar to what is happening in NDEs..and to summarize, it sepaks of "white light", etc. and that your mind is somewhat in control from the point of view that there are "projections" of reality.

"White light" is something often heard. Mind being in control sounds like a dream. It would also hint towards that people can control if they get heaven or hell visions. If we are judged for what we are we maybe also experience what we believe?

How do we separate the fact from fiction, in your opinion? I know most Christians will say it has to have Jesus in it or be absolutely consistent with the Bible or it is not valid. I must admit that this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

The Bible is rather vague about hell. Yet teh generally accepted NDE's in ET circles are very detailed.

I also am very interested to know people's knowledge as to how the Jews ended up with a "hinderer" who is doing God's bidding...and the rest of Christendom ended up with a tormenting "devil"...this is a total mystery to me

Because pagan Constantine may Catholicsism the state dictrine. He brought in certain pagan believes. Hell is not Christianity. Hell is the result of mixing Christianity with many pagan views.

Why would God punish people for falling victim to a tormenting devil that he has permitted to exist?

Maybe not just permitted. (read Job)
Another thing is that satan is the big winner. He steals 95% of humanity out of the hands of Jesus. And as a reward he may have eternal fun torturing them.

[Molly]

How can there be a fall when this Lucifer is a Latin word that is foreign to the Jews? How can the story of a fallen Babylonian king suddenly become a supernatural devil? If there is no devil then how can there be any such thing as a demon (followers of the devil)?

I pretty much agree with Heiser's interpretation of this, but not everybody here would.

Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

"serpent"

H5175
נחשׁ
nâchâsh


"The Hebrew root--n-ch-sh--which functions as a noun, verb, and adjective in the Hebrew Bible [used here to describe a divine being] .

If you take it in its normal noun meaning, the word here would mean 'serpent.'

If you take it in its normal verb meaning, the word here would mean 'deceiver' or 'diviner.'

If you take it in its normal adjective meaning, the word here would mean 'shining one.'

Most likely a triple entendre--they are all true.  The nachash is a shining, serpentine being--not an animal/snake."

--Michael Heiser




Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[WhiteWings]

How can there be a fall when this Lucifer is a Latin word that is foreign to the Jews?

The fact that Lucifer is a Latin word doesn't prove he doesn't exist.
Everything but Hebrew is foreign to the Jews. That said; there is weak proof of a fallen devil at best.

[WhiteWings]

Yep! thats right....the vessels of the Lord that hold water,oil

  bread etc. Golden or clay....holy because of what was inside it

   the word of God or the breath of the Almighty.

What a lovely thought!  God pours out his love into the golden bowl of our hearts, minds, and souls. His love is the water of life everlasting.



Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

What about Revelation's bowls?

[Molly]

How can there be a fall when this Lucifer is a Latin word that is foreign to the Jews?

The fact that Lucifer is a Latin word doesn't prove he doesn't exist.
Everything but Hebrew is foreign to the Jews. That said; there is weak proof of a fallen devil at best.

Rev 12:9 seems pretty solid to me.  Scroll up, I added it to my post.

I know, he didn't fall, he was pushed. :laughing7:

We've got Aramaic for the Jews, also.  What about Greek?

[Molly]

What about Revelation's bowls?

I know.  I was thinking about that.  Those bowls are filled with the wrath of God.  :mshock:



Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.



Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."

[WhiteWings]

We've got Aramaic for the Jews, also.  What about Greek?

My point is/was not what languages the Jews know/knew. A translation doesn't make something more or less true. If the devil has fallen that's a fact no matter how it's translated.
Just like hell isn't any more true when many preach about it.

BTW for those who are interested: Click here for "The Tibetian book of the dead" and many other (not religious) books

[Bobson]

Hello Molly, we'll have to perhaps leave UFOs for another discussion :)

WHITEWINGS: But what exactly do they prove? Christianity? Reincarnation? I trick everyone can do after another 10000 years of evolution?
ANS: I'm glad you brought that up because that is part of what I am wondering myself...I don't see how NDEs prove Christianity or anything else for that matter. Although I also think that to the experiencer it does "prove" something...unfortunately because they have seen "concepts" that are familiar to them they conclude that is "proof" of something...the problem is that the people who have these experiences don't do any research for themselves after it has happened...if they did, they would notice that people usually do see "concepts" that are familiar to them regardless of what religion they are. Because of this, some people dismiss these experiences as hallucinations...I do not agree with that...there is an abundance of information available that states that upon dying people will "see" concepts that are familiar to them to help ease confusion...NDEs contain common elements, among different "scenes" or "concepts"...and each "concept" will be appropriate for the individual...even if the "concept" is "hell". This is not to say that hell exists...it does not...and all they will have to do to escape from this "hell" is simply call out for help, or desire to escape from it...when they do one of these two things, they will find that their "hell" has vanished.

Another thing that can be commonly seen if one examines closely, is that "hellish" or negative NDEs teach the experiencer a lesson in the end...such as the Nigerian pastor who claims he was shown "hell"...and was told that this would be his abode if he were to stay. He was flabbergasted and insisted that he was a preacher! A man of God! He was saved! He learned a lesson the hard way that simply believing something isn't of much value...that love and forgiveness were the important values...more important than what he believed. In other words, he learned his lesson, in a way that he could understand it...if it had been any other way he probably would have rejected it and insisted it was the devil.

As far as what happened to me in that NDE experience...there is no doubt as to the reality of it...there is no way to view yourself from above the body, think and rationalize, turn side to side and be fully aware in the same manner as being in the body. There was no "hell" nor "heaven" when this experience happened. After realizing what was happening and trying to "think" my way out of it, I was drawn into darkness, then there was a light...and the rest of the story is much longer and detailed.
WhiteWings, I think you are misunderstanding something...people "get" what they are familiar with regardless of what religion they are...how could it be any other way? The "heaven" and "hell" NDEs are simply people getting what's familiar to them...they have to or they would be so confused they wouldn't know what to do...and most Christians would think the devil was tricking them if they didn't see what they expected to see...did you read what Howard Storm said he was told by those angels of light?
This: "They (the angels of light) know what each of us needs, so they provide that. In some cases it may be a heavenly meadow, and in another, something else. If a person needs to see a relative, the angels will bring that relative. If the person really likes jewels, they will show the person jewels. We see what is necessary for our introduction into the spirit world, and those things are real, in the heavenly, the divine sense."

Also, I would like to rephrase one of my questions...do the people here who ascribe to UR, accept that NDEs that do not have Jesus in them, are NOT deceptions?

Molly...yes I know what Revelation states...however, Revelation was written after the old testament/tanakh...so the concept of a "devil" would have already been present in the minds of some people. What I am asking is, according to the Jews, "the satan" is an emissary of God who is doing God's bidding for him..."the satan" has no power in and of himself...but then how did this "the satan" suddenly become a devil who had great power on his own? It sounds to me like this "devil" is a man made myth...and I'm wondering what other people here might say about all of this to help clarify it.

Revelation is not "solid proof" to me of a devil...because first, it's a dream...second, it was written AFTER the old testament/tanakh..so the idea of a "devil" was most likely present in the mind of the writer of Revelation already...plus this "devil" is totally absent in the old testament/tanakh...even to this day. How did a "devil" suddenly appear on the scene? It seems to me that there is virtually no Biblical or Hebrew evidence for the existence of this "devil", yet Christians seem to be completely unaware of this. "Hell" is not part of the old testament/tanakh, we know that....neither is a "devil"...yet this devil is part of Christianity...how?

[Bobson]

Hello WhiteWings...You wrote: "My point is/was not what languages the Jews know/knew. A translation doesn't make something more or less true. If the devil has fallen that's a fact no matter how it's translated."

But in this case, it seems that the translation DOES make a difference in it's validity...you know that "hell" is just a word for sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus..in translation. Neither hell nor the concept of eternal punishment is valid.

Here is some information I received from a person, in my pursuit of these questions...you will see how "Lucifer" is Latin, and how even that Latin "Lucifer" never implied any kind of a "devil"...plus, in Job, God and this rebellious and banished "devil" seem to be pretty "buddy-buddy" for two entities who, according to Christndom, are at "war". The problem seems to be that "Lucifer" is a Latin name that somehow made it's way into a Hebrew manuscript before there was a Roman language. How could this possibly be?  Here's the information:

The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains:

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of some supposed hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."
Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues) went on to say, "this passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 10:18 by Jesus, that was not its first meaning. It's primary meaning is given in Isaiah 14:4 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...

How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.

How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."
Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".

So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning"). Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.

The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.

David Grinspoon comments on the historical aspects of the word as follows: "The origin of the Judeo-Christian Devil as an angel fallen from heaven into the depths of hell is mirrored in the descent of Venus from shining morning star to the darkness below. This underworld demon, still feared today by people in many parts of the world, is also called Lucifer, which was originally a Latin name for Venus as a morning star." (Venus Revealed p. 17) Actually, Grinspoon should just refer to the "Christian Devil" since the Jews never believed in such a creature and still don't to this day.

[WhiteWings]

there is an abundance of information available that states that upon dying people will "see" concepts that are familiar to them to help ease confusion...

You mean people that shortly afterwards really died? No real NDE? If we assume that experience comes from God then that 'proves' UR. Why would God make the dying people feel at ease moments before dead and then 10 minutes dump them in a eternal lava pit?

NDEs contain common elements, among different "scenes" or "concepts"...and each "concept" will be appropriate for the individual...even if the "concept" is "hell".

That contradicts the word "ease" you used above. I can in no way imagine how views of hell easy someone...

This is not to say that hell exists...it does not...and all they will have to do to escape from this "hell" is simply call out for help, or desire to escape from it...when they do one of these two things, they will find that their "hell" has vanished.

Then it means that all hell NDE are imaginations. God isn't a master of confusion/lies. So would He show a none existing torture pit

Another thing that can be commonly seen if one examines closely, is that "hellish" or negative NDEs teach the experiencer a lesson in the end

That's not true for the one I have read. They all 'prove' eternal damnation.

...such as the Nigerian pastor who claims he was shown "hell"...and was told that this would be his abode if he were to stay. He was flabbergasted and insisted that he was a preacher! A man of God! He was saved! He learned a lesson the hard way that simply believing something isn't of much value...that love and forgiveness were the important values...more important than what he believed. In other words, he learned his lesson, in a way that he could understand it...if it had been any other way he probably would have rejected it and insisted it was the devil.

And what about those who do not learn their lesson?

WhiteWings, I think you are misunderstanding something

If it only was something :laughing7:

...people "get" what they are familiar with regardless of what religion they are...how could it be any other way?

I see that differently. If all have to learn about Father, Son and HS; why use a NDE with fake gods?

The "heaven" and "hell" NDEs are simply people getting what's familiar to them...they have to or they would be so confused they wouldn't know what to do...and most Christians would think the devil was tricking them if they didn't see what they expected to see...did you read what Howard Storm said he was told by those angels of light?
This: "They (the angels of light) know what each of us needs, so they provide that. In some cases it may be a heavenly meadow, and in another, something else. If a person needs to see a relative, the angels will bring that relative. If the person really likes jewels, they will show the person jewels. We see what is necessary for our introduction into the spirit world, and those things are real, in the heavenly, the divine sense."

That still makes no sense to be for the hell visions. I can accept many truely believe in hell. But those "need" heaven why do the angels of light provide hell instead of heaven?

Also, I would like to rephrase one of my questions...do the people here who ascribe to UR, accept that NDEs that do not have Jesus in them, are NOT deceptions?

We don't really know how Jesus looks like so a NDE could also have a fake Jesus. Plus a NDE is a small fragment of 'revelation'. A fragment doen't prove there is nothing beyond that fragment.

[WhiteWings]

Hello WhiteWings...You wrote: "My point is/was not what languages the Jews know/knew. A translation doesn't make something more or less true. If the devil has fallen that's a fact no matter how it's translated."

But in this case, it seems that the translation DOES make a difference in it's validity...you know that "hell" is just a word for sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus..in translation. Neither hell nor the concept of eternal punishment is valid.

Agreed. And I agree with the rest of your message. Lucifer has been discussed several times on this forum.
And somewhere on these pages... http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html & http://www.tentmaker.org/

[Bobson]

A BIT MORE ON THE SUBJECT OF EVIL AND THE DEVIL:

THIS WAS WRITTEN TO ME BY A RABBI:

Judaism rejects the concept of a "Devil", an 'fallen' angel with free will who is in 'rebellion' against G-d and is ruler of Hell. The term "Lucifer' is a corrupt and purposely misleading translation from the Book of Isaiah in theTanach. The original and correct Hebrew term means 'Morning Star" and is the title of the King of Babylon, not some super natural demon. Judaism rejects the concept of "Original Sin" that requires a hell to punish people in and Judaism rejects the idea that the "Devil" rules in "Hell".

We do have S'tan, an angel with NO free will and who is totally obedience to G-d, like all other angels. S'tan's job is to act as the DA>Fred Thompson< on 'Law & Order', bringing charges, accusations against the bad acts of people. But all the mythology that has evolved in Christianity about the "Devil" is completely absent in Judaism. In effect, Christianity has created a 4th god. Judaism forbids the worship of any god but G-d.

As one sees in Job, Satan actually comes to the very kingdom he is supposed to be cast out from.
In the Bible there is also verses which show that it is God, the Creator and Ruler of the whole universe, who is responsible for both the Good and the Bad, and not a devil or god of the underworld:

I am the Eternal, and there is none else, there is no god beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Eternal, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Eternal do all these things. [Isaiah 45:5-7]

[Bobson]

Whitewings:"If we assume that experience comes from God then that 'proves' UR."
ANS: Yes, it does...that's the point.

Whitewings:That contradicts the word "ease" you used above. I can in no way imagine how views of hell easy someone...
ANS: It's not easy...but their mind is manifesting it for them...I have heard countless times that in the afterlife "thoughts are things"...in other words if you "think" it, it will manifest itself...transportation is by thought...it is a world of "thought"... a world of "consciousness"...you "think" your way around.

I realize this is probably going to sound kind of strange here...but then I admit I have searched various information...not only from Christian sources. It is my opinion that the afterlife is a world of "thought" and not a physical world in the way that is not like the world that we live in at all. Thoughts become real things, and those who think alike (including "hell") are joined together by their thoughts...it is their negative thought patterns and fears that create their "hell" for them...so, in essence they are getting what they expect or want. I think one of the worst things that anyone could do is to leave this earth world in fear of hell and devils...they just might find themselves in an existence very similar to what they have feared or expected...and will not be imposed on them by a God, they will have created it for themselves.

It does not mean that NDEs are imaginations...respectfully, I would say that you may want to explore sources of information different from just the Bible in order to research what I am trying to say here, and decide for yourself if it makes sense to you...from all that I have seen, the "world of thought" does make sense to me, although it didn't at first.

Whitewings: That's not true for the one I have read. They all 'prove' eternal damnation.
ANS: OK. I haven't seen NDEs that "prove" eternal damnation...what I have seen, though, is a lot of preaching by people who try to CLAIM that their NDE "proves" eternal damnation...yet in the NDE itself there is usually nothing that corresponds with what they are preaching and nothing was communicated to them indicating that either...these people seem to come to their own conclusions. I'm not sure which NDEs you're referring to or that you have been reading. Perhaps some of these people also might have an agenda and are not being entirely truthful in some casees? People defend their religion fiercely.

Whitewings: And what about those who do not learn their lesson?
ANS: I can't comment because I have never seen an NDE that didn't proclaim the importance of love and forgiveness...even from fundamentalists...it seems almost universal. If someone claimed to have a NDE and DIDN'T come back stressing the importance of this, then I might have to wonder if they are lying about the experience...the "lesson" about love and forgiveness is so common it could be said that it is universal...and if someone came back stating things otherwise, I would be doubtful about their reliability.

Whitewings: I see that differently. If all have to learn about Father, Son and HS.
ANS: Well, this is something that I suppose I'll have to admit I don't understand or necessarily agree with. I don't think that all HAVE to learn about Father, Son and Holy Spirit...I find it difficult to imagine why it would be so important to God or to Jesus Christ that everyone MUST learn about Him and bend their knee to him...because he saved the world? I suppose we would think that was a very good reason to have to learn about him, the question is, would a GOD think it was absolutely necessary? If so, why? Because he saved the world? To us that's a good reason, I'm just  not so sure that Jesus Christ thinks it's a tremendously important reason...I'm not convinced Jesus is looking for a pat on the back or looking for congratulations...I think perhaps some people are more willing themselves to give him that 'pat on the back' and bend their knee toward him, but I'm not that sure that this is something that is important to him...if he is a God then I feel that he would have outgrown the need for adulation and acknowledgement from humans...that sounds like a human concept to me.

To me that would sort of sound a bit like He is looking for a reward, which is a very  human concept that I find difficult to label a God with. I'm not sure that I can equate God or Jesus Christ with someone who needs and wants to be acknowledged for something good that they have done...it sounds like they would be seeking some kind of congratulations, or a pat on the back...when in essence, I don't really see why such a thing would be important to a God...even if he really was the saviour of the world.
Humans think in terms of a reward for something or a punishment for something...they look for "acknowledgment" of something they have done that was good, and they expect "punishment" for someone they believe did something bad...I'm not sure I'm convinced that God sees things this same way, regardless of what is in the Bible.

To tell you the truth...I seriously doubt that there is any kind of "punishment" at all, beyond what someone might inflict on themselves...I find it very hard to believe a God will inflict punishment...what will he do? Tell them to stand in the corner? Burn them in fire for a few years to 'purify' them? Punishment for the sake of punishment accomplishes nothing, in my opinion. We do this here on earth and many of the people who are punished in prison seem to come out and continue to break the law again...so what  has been accomplished? It also seems possible that, for those who come out and don't break the law anymore, they only refrain from it out of fear of more punishment.

To me, this seems to be the purpose of the 'life review'...surely anyone would understand what they have done once they "become" the other people they interacted with? In other words, they'll have learned a great deal about themselves through this (without any punishment), they'll have learned a great deal about others, and they'll have learned a great deal about the true definition of love and forgiveness when they realize they have been forgiven of everything...and that because of this they should forgive everyone else as well...and they can forgive themselves...this is "learning" without brutality, and with punishment for the sake of punishment.
Whitewings: why use a NDE with fake gods?

ANS: What would an old Hindu lady think if she saw Jesus Christ? Would she know who he was? Would she know what to do about it? Would she run away? Wouldn't she be confused and ask 'where are the yamatoots I believed in all my life?' What would a Buddhist say if he saw Jesus Christ? Would he know what to think about what he was seeing? Wouldn't he think he was going crazy? What would a Jewish person think if he saw Jesus Christ instead of Jewish concepts? As another NDE person put it: "I WAS SHOWN THAT EVERYONE GETS A FEEDBACK LOOP OF THEIR OWN STUFF."

Whitewings: I can accept many truely believe in hell. But those "need" heaven why do the angels of light provide hell instead of heaven?
ANS: As I have said, I have seen countless statements alluding to "thoughts are things", "thoughts become things", "its a world of thought". This is also my understanding of the nature of "reality" since that experience happened to me...I do think that the afterlife is a world of "thought"...a world of "consciousness"...where almost anything is possible. Also, I'm not entirely sure that those who see traditional fundamentalist "hell" really "need" Heaven...I know a few people who are so obsessed with hell and so afraid of God that they actually seem to think that they are going to get "hell"...and it seems that often they do get just that...until they realize it's a fantasy to be abandoned and desire something better.

Whitewings: A fragment doen't prove there is nothing beyond that fragment.
ANS:I suppose I could agree with that...and that's why I also think that NDEs can offer a glimpse of the beyond...but only a glimpse...they are a fragment and not the whole.
Thanks for your comments, my friend.

[WhiteWings]

Judaism rejects the concept of "Original Sin" that requires a hell to punish people in and Judaism rejects the idea that the "Devil" rules in "Hell".

If hell exists then it should be possible to prove it with the OT only.

[Bobson]

I'm not sure that I understand your last post Whitewings...what I posted about what Rabbis told me is not saying hell exists at all...the rabbis I spoke with ALL insisted that hell does not exist and never has...they also clearly stated that eternal punishment does not exist either. They're certainly not saying anything other than that. The Jews reject hell and eternal punishment because they say it is not in their writings at all..anywhere.

[WhiteWings]

I realize this is probably going to sound kind of strange here...

Your talking to a stranger so that's  :thumbsup:

but then I admit I have searched various information...not only from Christian sources. It

If religions are compared there is a lot of overlap. Why? Even a 100% true and correctly translated Bible doesn't contain all knowledge of God and the afterlife. I see it as a good possibilty extra Biblical sources have truth in them too. Maybe even revelations by God that didn't make it into the Bible. Example it's said Zoroaster was a student of Daniel. Did Daniel just reread 'his book' a thousand of times? Or did Daniel also have knowledge that didn't get into the "Daniel" book but perhaps in the teachings of Zoroaster??????

It does not mean that NDEs are imaginations...respectfully, I would say that you may want to explore sources of information different from just the Bible in order to research what I am trying to say here, and decide for yourself if it makes sense to you...from all that I have seen, the "world of thought" does make sense to me, although it didn't at first.

Agreed. The problem, and danger, is if you read a book with 10% facts and 90% lies it's easy to confuse a lie for a fact...

Whitewings: That's not true for the ones I have read. They all 'prove' eternal damnation.
ANS: OK. I haven't seen NDEs that "prove" eternal damnation...

Someone having a demon as a guide in hell. That person can hear the thoughs of the damned. They all think they are there forever.

Whitewings: And what about those who do not learn their lesson?
ANS: I can't comment because I have never seen an NDE that didn't proclaim the importance of love and forgiveness...even from fundamentalists...it seems almost universal.

I'm talking about the people who had the NDE that scared them unto the narrow road. But those that stayed on the wide road until death.

Whitewings: I see that differently. If all have to learn about Father, Son and HS.
ANS: Well, this is something that I suppose I'll have to admit I don't understand or necessarily agree with. I don't think that all HAVE to learn about Father, Son and Holy Spirit...I find it difficult to imagine why it would be so important to God or to Jesus Christ that everyone MUST learn about Him and bend their knee to him...because he saved the world?

The Bible states it's teh way things are/gonna be. So I assume that fact still stands after death.

To tell you the truth...I seriously doubt that there is any kind of "punishment" at all,

On this forum we usually call it correction. Some believe it takes place now. Some believe it takes place in the afterlife. And likely some believe it takes place both in the current and afterlife. Personally I think the is "correction" but I'm not sure when. I edge to the after life.

To me, this seems to be the purpose of the 'life review'...surely anyone would understand what they have done once they "become" the other people they interacted with?

That sounds like a "correction"
It also reminds me of cartoon drawings with angels that film every action of your life and present it at judgement.

Whitewings: why use a NDE with fake gods?
ANS: What would an old Hindu lady think if she saw Jesus Christ? Would she know who he was?

Likely not. But Jesus has eternity to explain... And being devine I think Jesus can be very convincing.

Would she know what to do about it? Would she run away?

If Jesus looks like a demon yes. But Jesus looks gentle/comforting/etc. So that's a good start for a conversation. Perhaps the lady thinks it's just another dead person.

As another NDE person put it: "I WAS SHOWN THAT EVERYONE GETS A FEEDBACK LOOP OF THEIR OWN STUFF."

The ultimate be judged as you judge.

Thanks for your comments, my friend.

And thank you for this topic :thumbsup:
I question everything. It's my way of learning. Nothing personal Bobson.

[WhiteWings]

I'm not sure that I understand your last post Whitewings...what I posted about what Rabbis told me is not saying hell exists at all...the rabbis I spoke with ALL insisted that hell does not exist and never has...they also clearly stated that eternal punishment does not exist either. They're certainly not saying anything other than that. The Jews reject hell and eternal punishment because they say it is not in their writings at all..anywhere.

Another try :winkgrin:
IMO hell not in OT. And hell is not in NT.
People that believe in hell usually use NT to prove it. Revelation is their fav book for that.
My point is/was IF the NT really teaches about hell the OT also should teach about hell. So hell should be proven with OT verses alone.

If hell is not in OT:
Did God forget to mention hell for millenia?
Did Moses forgot to mention it in his 600+ laws?
Do the Jews miss one of the most important points in their "own" books?

[WhiteWings]

they also clearly stated that eternal punishment does not exist either.

Did they say how long the punishment lasts?
Their believe is somewhere between 0-12 months. Right?
Personally I think it aligns somehow with the harvesting seasons.

[Bobson]

WHITEWINGS:I see it as a good possibility extra Biblical sources have truth in them too. Maybe even revelations by God that didn't make it into the Bible. Example it's said Zoroaster was a student of Daniel. Did Daniel just reread 'his book' a thousand of times? Or did Daniel also have knowledge that didn't get into the "Daniel" book but perhaps in the teachings of Zoroaster??????
ANS: I think much the same way that you about this Whitewings...thank you for mentioning this. I'm not very familiar with Zoroaster...only a little bit.

WHITEWINGS: Agreed. The problem, and danger, is if you read a book with 10% facts and 90% lies it's easy to confuse a lie for a fact...
ANS: Yes, and I struggle with that myself as well. Basically, I try to keep in mind that anything that speaks opposite of love, forgiveness, kindness and selflessness...is false. This is part of why I'm here at this website...I'm learning myself.

WHITEWINGS:Someone having a demon as a guide in hell. That person can hear the thoughts of the damned. They all think they are there forever.
ANS:Well, even if they "think" that it doesn't mean it's true...it only  means they are confused. And I'm also very skeptical of any NDE (as well as any other experience) containing traditional demons, etc. I'm not sure that demons exist...in fact, I kind of doubt it. I do, however, think that there are earthbound spirits who are troublesome and even malicious.

Whitewings: I'm talking about the people who had the NDE that scared them unto the narrow road. But those that stayed on the wide road until death.
ANS:Well, I question anyone who takes the "wide road" after a legitimate NDE...I've seen this talked about by new agers...and I think that those people are confusing "love and forgiveness" with permissiveness. Not everything is loving and kind...and just because you've already been forgiven doesn't mean that you should indulge all your selfish desires...that is a very poor misunderstanding of love...I agree that some seem to think that way...but I do not accept it. I think they have confused things.
Whitewings: The Bible states it's teh way things are/gonna be. So I assume that fact still stands after death.
ANS:I understand. It's not really something that I understand but I'm aware that it is what the Bible states...I just think sometimes that things like this are "filtered" by human minds...not necessarily the mind of a God. I think humans certainly feel the need to exalt and bow down to God...I'm just not convinced that the creator of the universe thinks the same way as humans do about it.

Whitewings: Personally I think the is "correction" but I'm not sure when. I edge to the after life.
ANS:I do as well...and I think the perfect kind of correction takes place when you "become" everyone you have interacted with...there will be no denying things when that happens...and then they will understand true "love" and true "forgiveness"...when they realize they have been forgiven, they will understand WHY it is necessary to forgive all others, including themselves...and when they can do that they will have no desire to live without that kind of unconditional love and forgiveness and they will freely give it to all others, because they will understand how easily it was given to them even if they didn't deserve it.
Yes, I see the life review as "correction" as well...a perfect kind of correction...where the creator isn't even the judge himself...to me, it lends a new meaning to "forgive 70x7 per day" and "judge not lest you be judged".

Whitewings: Likely not. But Jesus has eternity to explain... And being devine I think Jesus can be very convincing.
ANS:I suppose so. I'm not sure that he would be concerned about that, because I'm not sure that a God would be concerned about receiving praise from humans and that sounds like a human concept to me...however, if I'm wrong, I can accept that too.
Whitewings: If Jesus looks like a demon yes. But Jesus looks gentle/comforting/etc. So that's a good start for a conversation. Perhaps the lady thinks it's just another dead person.

ANS:Maybe. I just think that the NDEs where people see "concepts" that are familiar to them is a perfect scenario...let's keep in mind that there are tens of thousands of people that die EVERY HOUR...it would seem to me that there needs to be a little more of an automatic system in place than everyone seeing Jesus...of which most would be so confused they wouldn't know what to do.

Whitewings: And thank you for this topic. I question everything. It's my way of learning. Nothing personal Bobson.
ANS: Oh, you're most welcome...thank you for your comments, I appreciate it. I question almost everything as well...and that's partly why I came here...and why I brought up the "devil" and "demons" stuff...I still would like to hear what people have to say about those things as well.

No, hell is not in the old testament and not in any of the Jews books..neither is the concept of eternal punishment either...why so many people refuse to acknowledge and accept this is beyond me.

Whitewings:Did they say how long the punishment lasts? Their believe is somewhere between 0-12 months. Right?
ANS:Yes, that's right. The rabbis all told me that the longest it is possible to be in "gehinnom", their place of spiritual correction, is 12 months...this is their theology. Personally, I don't believe that anyone is burned for any reason at all...nor are they punished just for the sake of punishment either. Correction, learning and understanding takes place perfectly in the life review...in my opinion.

Let me ask you one thing...from what you feel that you personally know...do you feel that this "devil" exists? Personally, I don't think so...and I think the fact that the Jews reject the existence of a devil and say this devil is not present in their books is a confirmation of that.