TALK ABOUT THE HARD THINGS: NDE-OBE-VISIONS-BLIND PEOPLE SEE IN NDE

[Bobson]

Hello to everyone. I stared this topic because I wanted to discuss some things on these subjects with Universal Christians. The reason is, I'm wondering if UR people have considered the other available explanations for NDEs, OBEs and alleged visions. I also wonder if they consider those other explanations viable. I'm not talking about materialistic atheist explanations...I'm talking about potentially supernatural explanations that seem to disagree with the Bible.

I also would like to say that I don't wish to attemtp to invalidate anyone...the further I go, I realize the less I know, so who am I to invalidate anyone. I'm interested in hearing thoughts on these subjects...and I'm also hoping to make statements that might challenge some of those thoughts and I'm interested to see any responses to that. Again, I'm not seeking to invalidate anyone and I don't have an agenda.

As for me, I actually am also looking for reasons to believe the Bible...as well as reasons to believe Jesus Christ, etc., so in our discussion I probably will bring up some questions about these things as well, I hope that's OK.

I also would like to say that I sometimes feel as though my writing style can come across as "sharp" (if I can put it that way)...and so, if I write in such a way that it seems to anyone participating to be that way...please accept my apologies up front, because I do not mean to be that way at all. I sometimes feel as though I find it hard when it comes to message boards because everything is simply typed words, without being able to hear the person's tone of voice, etc., which if possible, might be something totally different in reality, than what it looks like on paper.

Please join in the discussion.

[Bobson]

I will start off by saying that an NDE experience happened to me. I had no prior knowledge of NDEs or OBEs, etc. In other words, I saw myself from up near the ceiling looking down, was able to turn side to side, had peripheral vision, was drawn into a darkness, saw a light, stopped right in front of it, the brilliance of the light within the area of light is hard to explain because I don't have anything to compare it to. There were people there and I spoke at length to one of them.

I returned from this area of light, back through the darkness and through an opening in the darkness that I came through, and back into the room where my body was. Upon re-entering the room I slowed down dramatically, looked side to side again, and came down on top of my body.

It was very shocking to me, when this happened, and I was shaking upon return, although I'm not sure why. This was not a "heaven" that I expected in any way. In fact, the "existence" in the area of this light was very much like this physical world.

Since then I've become aware of many experiences similar to this and I also was puzzled at first as to how they could all be different. To my surprise, I found the answer to this question within the people's experiences as told to them by those they spoke with during the experience. It seems the common answer was that everyone sees things that are familiar to them because if they did not they would be afraid...imagine if a Hindu saw Christian concepts...or if a Christian saw Hindu concepts, Jewish concepts, etc.
It seems that Christians conclude that everything that doesn't include Jesus is demonic. Yet, I'm not sure why everything would have to include Jesus, or even why Jesus would insist that he must be included.

Howard Storm returned from his experience promoting Christianity and the "reality" of hell...yet virtually nothing of his experience seems compatible with Christianity. Certainly his "hell" (as he calls it) is not remotely consistent with the typical Christian "hell". From what I can gather, it seems that "hell" does not exist even from a Biblical standpoint, and it also seems to me that the concept of eternal punishment is a man-made concept that was totally absent to the Jews and still is, today.

So how are people seeing what appears to be traditional Christian "hell"? First, the vast majority that this happens to are already fundamentalist Christians, who could already be obsessed with hell...many are. They seem to see it under certain circumstances:

1-They expect it
2-It has been a major focal point of their life
3-They think they deserve it or are going there
4-They have lived somewhat "dark" lives

They then return and proselytize about the reality of "hell" fiercely, without putting any further research into other experiences and other possibilities as to why they saw what they saw. How does one see something that for all intents and purposes does not exist? Some claim that consciousness creates "reality"...in other words, as your thoughts are, so you are. Although I can't say that I have a lot of knowledge about this book, but, it seems that the Tibetan Book of The Dead describes what is happening in NDEs relatively well...better than how some claim the Bible does.

Regarding demons and the devil...the hardest part of Christianity for me to comprehend is the creation of all things by a God, that suddenly went wrong, and that omnipotent God either did not know it would happen before-hand, or didn't care. This God seems very prone to mistakes and then having to come up with backup plans...it doesn't seem very believable to me...it sounds more like a human concept than an actual creator of the universe.

On that subject, it seems inconceivable to me that there would be some kind of a "fall"...in other words, an oversight on the part of the omnipotent creator who would then realize he needed a backup plan to save all humanity from either "hell" or from eternal death...whichever you believe. This is inconceivable to me, although I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.

What is also inconceivable to me is the Christian thought that a "devil" somehow was crazy enough to rebel against the supreme creator and then was kicked out of heaven along with a legion of other rebels who were also crazy enough to wish to dethrone their creator. I assume these legions are understood to be "demons" according to Christians. On top of all of this, the creator cast this "devil" and "demons" to the earth and permits them to trick, torment, and deceive all mankind! Then, when humans fall victim to these same "demons", the creator who permitted this to happen, sees fit to punish the humans for what he himself has permitted!

This is unimaginable to me...it doesn't seem possible. I have since discovered that the Jews state that there is no "hell" and that if one passes into Gehinnom the longest stay is 12 months...and this is for spiritual correction...not punishment at all. They also say there is  no devil either. They say that "Lucifer" is a Latin word for "day star, son of the dawn" which is actually Venus, but refers to the fall of a Babylonian king who persecuted the Jews...yet Christians seem to have turned this into some kind of a supernatural devil who has powers all to himself and on his own, independant of God. How can this be?

The Jews refer to "satan" as "the satan" or "sutan"...except they claim this "satan" is simply an angel with a dirty job who is doing God's bidding for him. They cite "Job" as proof of this, and refer to "the satan" as entering the very same kingdom that he is supposed to be kicked out of, according to Christians. They claim that the "satan" is doing God's bidding and is defined as "hinderer" which gives us the opportunity to do evil or to do good...in other words the "hinderer" aka "the satan" is doing God's bidding so that we have a choice of evil or good...the "satan" is actually an element of free will...and that without this same "satan" there would be no free will.

Yet, Christians see this "satan" as a devil with enormous power, yet whom God will not destroy and terminate, for some reason unknown to me, and permits this "devil" to wreak havoc on humanity and then punishes, annihilates or torments the humans after that! I do not understand this concept. It seems like a God of mistakes and backup plans...it doesn't seem to me like a realistic creator of the universe.

Further, if as the Jews claim, there is no "hell" and no "devil", then how can there be demons? How can there be legions of fallen angels if there never was a fall to begin with? A rabbi has told me that "you will find the satan within YOU yourself, overcome it". This makes more sense to me than the Christian concept does, although I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.

To finish this statement, it seems to me that the God of Jews and Christians is supposed to be the same God...yet the Christians' God is so vastly different than the Jews God that it seems impossible to reconcile the two. And, I wonder how this could be? Is it possible Christians fashioned their own God? At least on the surface, the Jews idea of God appears to make more sense, although I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

The Jews also seem to state that original sin is a myth, they also claim that death did not enter the world because of Adam and Eve, because they were already created mortal, and they were kicked out of the garden so that they would not eat of the tree that would make them IM-mortal. Is the Christian old testament different from the Tanak? If so, why?

Anyway, these are all the things that I was hoping to discuss here. Feel free to comment and discuss this with me. I have more to say about NDEs, etc. as well as other questions about these theological ideas.
Thank you.

[Bobson]

I'm sorry for another post...I just forgot to mention...on the subject of "visions"...I'm not sure that I can give much credibility to "visions" of people who perceive things while in a normal waking state that corresponds perfectly to what they already believe...for example, the numerous Catholic saints who who have visions of things that are 100% Catholic...in the case of fundantalist Christians, they receive "prophecy" that is virtually always corresponds with their "angry God"...usually consisting of chastisement for one reason or another. Then, there are the "visions" of liberal Christians who perceive things that are always "liberal" and correspond quite perfectly with what they already believe.

I do not afford the same credibility of these as to NDEs because NDEs very often include veridical descriptions of events, conversations, etc., from a vantage point that would be impossible if the people were not somehow out of their body. In fact many of these NDEs contain corroborated verification of conversations had by people great distances away from the experiencer, as well as corroborated verification of the activities of relatives of the experiencer, while being visited by the experiencer who was out of their body. And we haven't even begun to speak about the people who are born blind that are suddenly able to see and describe events and objects from an impossible vantage point. For me, this indicates that something more is happening than simply having a "vision" that corresponds perfectly to what you have already been taught, while in a perfect waking state.

And this is only taking into consideration the host of Christian "visons"...don't forget there are Hindu, Buddhist and Shaman "visions" as well...not everyone who has a claimed "vision" is seeing Jesus Christ or Mary, his mother.

[WhiteWings]

So how are people seeing what appears to be traditional Christian "hell"? First, the vast majority that this happens to are already fundamentalist Christians, who could already be obsessed with hell...many are. They seem to see it under certain circumstances:

1-They expect it
2-It has been a major focal point of their life
3-They think they deserve it or are going there
4-They have lived somewhat "dark" lives

I'm not sure that I can give much credibility to "visions" of people who perceive things while in a normal waking state that corresponds perfectly to what they already believe...for example, the numerous Catholic saints who who have visions of things that are 100% Catholic...in the case of fundantalist Christians, they receive "prophecy" that is virtually always corresponds with their "angry God"...usually consisting of chastisement for one reason or another. Then, there are the "visions" of liberal Christians who perceive things that are always "liberal" and correspond quite perfectly with what they already believe.

If people only have NDEs about what they believe then either God for some reasons varies the content of the visions or those people had nothing more than dreams. Plus I think in many cases just a fantasy to make money.
I've also heared about muslims getting a Christian NDE. But that sounds a lot like those money making chain letters "I never believed I could make money with this system but..."
If that muslim switched to Christianity surely only Christians would use that NDE. Muslims won't report that NDE.
So if NDEs are real they most often are used selectively.

[Bobson]

It doesn't seem logical to dismiss experiences where people are able to recount a series of events taking place around them (often in remote locations)  from an impossible vantage point, and then have it verified by the people involved, including doctors...and then to state these are nothing other than dreams. I have never dreamed while I had zero brain activity and no heart beat...much less been able to recount conversations with family members hundreds of miles away (later verified) and witness a medical teams actions from up near the ceiling, have you?

Also, do people born blind suddenly see, describe the appearance of curtains in the emergency rooms, etc., in dreams? How would this happen? With due respect, to me it sounds a bit like you are attempting to invalidate these experiences for some reason...this is sort of like reductionism in reverse.

I would agree that in some cases there are probably people who make up stories to make money...but there are people who do this in every circumstance of life...I hardly think it is possible to write off all humanity as crooks simply because a few might be...the same would apply to NDEs. Also, the fact that people's entire lives are changed as a result of the experience does not jive with "made up fantasies". Some have given up fortunes...such as Gordon Allen, who has had 5 of these experiences.

I'm not aware of a Muslim having an entirely Christian NDE...it's possible I suppose, I'm just not aware of it...and yes, if that did happen I doubt very much that Muslims would report it...but isn't that what a lot of people do? Most people are not open to anything that contradicts what they already believe...why? I can only speculate that it might have something to do with cognitive dissonance...the need to keep their belief valid to themselves and so they automatically reject anything that would appear to invalidate it. Thanks for your comment.

[Bobson]

And yes, it does seem very true that people attempt to use NDEs very selectively, I agree. And also, it has to be kept in mind that the majority of people begin to prosletyze after such an experience...they will latch onto something and run with it...whether that's Christianity, new age, etc. Yet, when one looks closely at the experience it often contains very little of what they have begun to preach. They fill in the blanks, so to speak. In other words, if they're in darkness for a period of time, they'll later insist that this is the "outer darkness" that the Bible speaks of, when in reality nothing of the sort was ever conveyed to them.

Also, regarding the dream hypothesis...there is a man whose name is George Rodonaia, who was a Soviet scientist as well as a doctor and atheist. He was killed by KGB, spent 3 days in the morgue waiting for an autopsy. While in the morgue, George was able to travel at will, claimed to have been able to "see" people's thoughts, and in fact, visited a friend who had just had a baby. The baby was crying and no one knew why, he "spoke" to the baby through what he calls "mental spiritual communication" and she stopped crying.

Upon returning to physical life, and once he was able to speak, he informed those same friends that the reason the new born baby was crying was because she had a fractured hip and that this was the diagnosis they were seeking...his diagnosis regarding the new born's hip was then verified by doctors as correct. How would he do this if he was merely dreaming?

In fact, the video testimony of this is available to view online.

[WhiteWings]

It doesn't seem logical to dismiss experiences where people are able to recount a series of events taking place around them (often in remote locations)  from an impossible vantage point, and then have it verified by the people involved, including doctors...and then to state these are nothing other than dreams. I have never dreamed while I had zero brain activity and no heart beat...much less been able to recount conversations with family members hundreds of miles away (later verified) and witness a medical teams actions from up near the ceiling, have you?

That's let's call it a medical NDE. I've read several of them. Indeed several have been verified. But the religious NDEs about heaven/hell are not verified.
And it are, of course, those religious hell NDEs you read so often about. As you wrote they quite often align with what the person already believed.
The medial NDEs can often be verified the religious ones not..

Also, do people born blind suddenly see, describe the appearance of curtains in the emergency rooms, etc., in dreams? How would this happen? With due respect, to me it sounds a bit like you are attempting to invalidate these experiences for some reason...

I'm not. But I part of the NDEs are fantasies, dreams. So I think it's important to seperate fact from fiction.

I'm not aware of a Muslim having an entirely Christian NDE...it's possible I suppose, I'm just not aware of it...and yes, if that did happen I doubt very much that Muslims would report it...but isn't that what a lot of people do?

No.
Also; was the man really a muslim? All 'proof' is site that tries to proof hell by NDE's (IIRC)

Most people are not open to anything that contradicts what they already believe...why? I can only speculate that it might have something to do with cognitive dissonance...the need to keep their belief valid to themselves and so they automatically reject anything that would appear to invalidate it.

I think many are simply afraid they are tricked by satan. So they run away from anything new/different. Learning often involves questuioning your own believes.

[Bobson]

I wish I knew how to use the "quote" feature that you are using WhiteWings!
Anyway, since I do not know how...I agree entirely about the "hell" thing, and I'm certainly not starting this discussion to try and "prove" hell :) because I cannot put the majority of the world's population into destruction...at least not while I'm using my heart and some common sense. I do not accept hell, and that's one of the reasons I'm glad for the presence of this website in the world and I certainly have no intention of trying to "prove" it does exist...the evidence that it does NOT is so overwhelming that it should be enough to persuade anyone.

It was somewhat confusing at first because when it happened I was an atheist...maybe an agnostic, at best. I was very puzzled as to how it could be possible that I had a vantage point from up above myself and able to look around because this was supposed to be impossible! What happened after that continued to be puzzling because I still could not see how any of it was possible...yet it was exhilarating and fascinating at the same time...it was a very logical and orderly sequence of events. In order to write this off as a hallucination of some kind I would have to write off the rest of my entire life as a hallucination.

I suppose one of the things that I'm asking is, how do people here, who subscribe to UR view these experiences from the point of view that many if not most, do not include the presence of Jesus Christ?

Although I'm willing to say that some of these experiences may not be "true" and some people may even concoct them for the sake of fame...however, the other reason I'm bringing this up is because the Tibetan Book of The Dead seems to give a description of what one encounters after dying, that is really quite similar to what is happening in NDEs..and to summarize, it sepaks of "white light", etc. and that your mind is somewhat in control from the point of view that there are "projections" of reality. It's hard to explain and I'm not an expert on that book.

How do we separate the fact from fiction, in your opinion? I know most Christians will say it has to have Jesus in it or be absolutely consistent with the Bible or it is not valid. I must admit that this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I also am very interested to know people's knowledge as to how the Jews ended up with a "hinderer" who is doing God's bidding...and the rest of Christendom ended up with a tormenting "devil"...this is a total mystery to me...after all, the two Gods are supposed to be the same yet they seem to be so different that I wonder if someone concocted a God of their own desires? How does a "hinderer" who works for God become a devil?

Why would God punish people for falling victim to a tormenting devil that he has permitted to exist? Where is this devil in the tanak?
And I also agree that part of learning involves questioning your own beliefs...and that is part of what I am doing in this discu
ssion.

[Molly]

I suppose one of the things that I'm asking is, how do people here, who subscribe to UR view these experiences from the point of view that many if not most, do not include the presence of Jesus Christ?

Are you a Jew who has had a near death type experience where you left your body?  First of all, let me say, I believe you--I have experienced similar myself, twice.  Both experiences for me were benign and did not include any other presence than myself.  I was a 'Christian' at the time of both, but, shall we say, 'lapsed.' 

I would encourage you to start reading the Old and New Testaments.  God himself will answer your questions.  I can tell by what you are saying that you know you have experienced something profound, but now you want some answers.  If I could be so bold, you won't find them in such writings as the Tibetan Book of the Dead. 

Every major religion honors and respects Jesus.  Even the demons know who he is and tremble at his name.  Learn who he is, and you will have your answers.


Luke 10:17
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."

[friendofmankind]

I was one of the most sceptical people you could ever meet, until one day, while out driving, me and a good trusted friend, (and even more down to earth than me), encountered a UFO.
Noone could ever convince me or her otherwise of what we saw.

We were told it was a 'cloud', 'army maneouvers in the area', a 'hot air balloon' etc by various groups and people, including the ministry of defence etc.

Well, no.  It wasn't a 'cloud' or a 'balloon', it was a solid, massive, sleek black triangular shaped craft that sat some 30 feet directly above our heads covered in lights and making no sound whatsoever...Way more technologically advanced than ANYTHING I have ever seen...It was like seeing an iceberg in a desert, that's how much it shouldn't have been there...It made no sense at all and seemed to break every law of physics, especially when it shot off into the sky in the blink of an eye and was 'gone'.  (Some hot air balloon that).

For too long, people who have seen such phenomenon have been branded 'stupid' or 'mad' or 'deluded' etc.
I'm not saying that what I saw was from another world.  Although I believe it was.  But I am saying that I saw a UFO and have never seen anything like it before or since.  We saw the UFO in around 1998...We didn't even have mobile phones back then, much less phones with a built in camera, which is a great pity, because I could have got some fantastic photos!
John Lennon saw one, Ali saw one, Presidents, Flight crew, astronauts....And when you see one yourself there is no room for doubt....Which brings me to the subject of NDE's.

Who am I to say to someone "You didn't have an NDE!  You just had a dream!  It must have been the drugs you were on!  It was because you had no oxygen your brain just played a trick on you!"  How could I be so arrogant to assume such, to someone who 'saw what they saw?' 
Thats the same as people saying to me and my friend "You both just saw a cloud".
Eh....Hello!  I know what a flippin cloud looks like I see hundreds of them every day!
So it made me research the NDE phenomena myself because you do learn to trust what 'some' people are saying on the matter, especially if you know that person.

I don't believe NDE's go against the bible at all...Nor do I believe that UFO's in anyway go against what the Bible teaches.
Jesus said he had much more to tell his disciples, but they wouldnt be able to bear it right now.
I believe Ezekiel was on board a UFO.
There is a whole website devoted to the subject of 'UFO's and the Bible'.
http://www.bibleufo.com/

The thing that always struck me about NDE's is the fact that these people no longer fear death and they change their lives....They become more unmaterialistic, they start to care more about their fellow man...Athiests who have had NDE's become a believer in a 'God' or 'Creator'...Hellish NDE reporters/sufferers, always cite the experience as being the 'tool' they needed to 'change their lives', or if they were dead long enough, they report that although they went to a 'hellish plane', they were delivered from it, or that they knew that it would not last 'forever'.

Oh it's a wierd world!
Right now I'm studying the http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
These are 'official' documents from the national archives (british government) about UFO's which they have had to release to the public....Thousands of reports from regular people who reported UFO's to the governement in the past....Very interesting reading indeed!  Esspecially when 'we know the truth' as it were, because I have seen one with my own eyes.

I feel that Universalism fits in rather well with what has been discovered about life after death from NDE reporters...That hell is not eternal (there is a way out of it), that we reap what we sow, that we are judged, that all people eventually reach higher planes (until God is all and in all as the Bible teaches), and that (as people who have had an NDE have said), "God is love, or the 'creator' is love...The reason to live is 'love'" and so on.

It's a fascinating subject, which I do take with a pinch of salt, but any reasonable minded person would do that with anything and always remain open minded.
There are always people out to make money from everything....The Bible, NDE's, UFOS....Fakes everywhere, and it is hard to seperate the true from the fake, because there are a lot of liars out there...And anything to do with life after death or aliens is a hot topic and always makes a good seller.

[Molly]

I'm not saying that what I saw was from another world.  Although I believe it was.  But I am saying that I saw a UFO and have never seen anything like it before or since.  We saw the UFO in around 1998..

I have a friend who saw one in 1968 over a military base.  Why would you assume it's not our own technology?  Isn't the simplest explanation always the best?  Occam's razor.



Main Entry: Oc·cam's razor
Variant(s): also Ock·ham's razor \ˈä-kəmz-\
Function: noun
Etymology: William of Occam
Date: circa 1837
: a scientific and philosophic rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities

[friendofmankind]

Well Molly if our own world had the technology to travel at the speed this UFO did which I seen, why not do away with all the primitive airplanes and helicopters we have?

If earthlings can make massive aircraft that make no sound (no more noise pollution), use seemingly no fuel (no engine sound to be heard) which could get you from New York to Scotland in 5 mins instead of many hours....Why not let the public know about them or indeed do away with primitive Jumbos and suchlike?

When you see something that is 'impossible' and 'unearthly', what explanation can one come too?
There are millions of planets, which have been around for millions more years than Earth...Should I really be so closed minded and arrogant to assume that Earth is the be all and end all?  Especially in light of what top astronauts and military aircraft pilots etc have said?

All I am saying is that I dont believe this UFO was from our world, because I dont believe we have that technology, (not now, and certainly not back in 1998 when I saw the UFO), and lets bear in mind that there are reports from much much longer back in time of UFO's, indeed before any form of 'aircraft' was even invented.

You say you had an NDE...Well did you?  Or were you just dreaming?  Full of drugs perhaps?  Wishful thinking?  After all, the simplest explanation is always the best (according to you).

[Molly]

Well Molly if our own world had the technology to travel at the speed this UFO did which I seen, why not do away with all the primitive airplanes and helicopters we have?

Now that's a good question.  The answer should come quickly to mind.


[clue: For the same reason that automotive technology has not significantly changed in the last hundred years.]

[friendofmankind]

Wow, you know everything! Its incredible! (Incredibly arrogant).

[Molly]

Wow, you know everything! Its incredible! (Incredibly arrogant).

Are you somehow invested in believing this is alien technology?

Let me ask you this, what do you think is going on behind the secret, top secret, for eyes only, beyond top secret classifications every government in the western world maintains?  You think they are playing tiddlywinks in back rooms?  Maybe they are discussing, oh what are we ever going to do about those nasty aliens, and wringing their hands?  And, they don't want us to see how scared they are?  So they have to keep it all secret? lol

[friendofmankind]

Wow...you just dont stop...They should give you an arrogance award...seriously, its so evident with you in almost every post.   :icon_flower:

It always amazes me how someone (you) who never seems to get up off their pc and spends almost every waking hour on forums knows so damn much about everything that goes on in the world...Amazing.

:happyclap:

Now hopefully the person who started the post will at least have some form of reasoning ability so that we can get a 2 sided convo going, instead of...IM RIGHT! YOUR WRONG, I HAD AN NDE! YOU DIDNT SEE A UFO!  CARS HAVENT CHANGED FOR THE LAST 100 YEARS (cough).  Etc.  Yawn.

Its just no fun talking to someone who is so arrogant they already have their mind made up about everything....there is no debate with you, just sheer arrogance.  (I already know it all but you dont).
It actually shows you know bugger all to start with, and is very tedious and boring, and with that Molly, I dont want to talk to you again (or rather....I dont want you to 'talk' to me again, since you dont listen anyway, you just blabble, cinvinced in your own mind that your right and everyone else is wrong, with a closed mind.

Still love you tho, dont take it to heart...I just dont like wasting time on worthless pursuits.

[Molly]

Wow...you just dont stop...They should give you an arrogance award...seriously, its so evident with you in almost every post.   

On the contrary, it takes a good deal of humility to admit that you know about as much about the real advancement of science in the 21st century as a primitive tribe in the deep jungle who has never seen the 20th century.  To think otherwise, is the real arrogance.

PS  I don't do drugs.

[friendofmankind]

PS  I don't do drugs.

I'm convinced.

[WhiteWings]

I wish I knew how to use the "quote" feature that you are using WhiteWings!

Several methods
1- Top right of each message you find a Quote button to quote the comoplete message.
2- Just copy and paste parts and type [*quote] at the start and [*/quote] at the end. Without the the *
3- Copy paste. Select/highlight with your mouse. Click the text balloon button. 1 row above the smilies. 2nd from the right.

[sheila]

   when I was seven,a ruptured appendix and too much either

  caused me to leave my body. I was on the ceiling looking

  down at my body,seeing the tops of the heads of the surgeons.

   I had a 7 yrolds concept of what was going on...I thought it

was funny and like a trick on the surgeons who thought I was

  asleep and didn't know I was watching them.

   Our spirit is a golden bowl with a silver cord that anchors it to

our fleshly body..this cord can be lengthened...and the spirit

move from the body..but still attached.When it is severed..this

physical /spiritual body  connection is finished.

   After the surgery I thought maybe  had just been looking at

the overhead mirror,maybe. But then I realized that cottonballs

with vaseline had been placed over my eyes before the either

  was given me.

   After we are reaped/circumcized from our fleshy body,we are

drawn to certain areas. we gather there with others that have

been reaped...the angels call that a sheaves..they direct us

further on our journey of return into the Holy city.

   Eccl 12;6  Remember Him-before the silver cord is severed or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,or the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the earth,and the spirit returns to God who gave it..

   Now, regarding the triangle shaped craft. In August of 2001

I was given a dream vision of a formation of such crafts flying

about in formation in the mid-heavens. The lighting was murky

in the vision around me..and I looked up and watched them..

subsequently I felt these creepy crawly sensations on my body

that were the locusts in Rev...and they did not harm me, just

their crawling bugged me,no sting.So I knew it was time for the

fifth seal to be opened on the word of God.

  Rev 6;9 and Rev 9;6  Rev 16;10  of course I knew spiritual

warfare was taking place and I had His seal from this vision,due

to the locust not stinging me[the servants of God are not

harmed by this first woe...for they have already repented and

given the Glory to God.]

   the last bowl is poured out on the air...of which the prince of

the power of the air is satan...being handed over to satan for

the destruction of the flesh can make a man pray for death..the

last trumpet results in the fall of the dominion of the Kingdom

of Darkness

  Do I understand the triangle shaped craft?What they represent spiritually? Not really...we know they are a war machination
associated with spiritual warfare,locusts and preceding the drying up of the Euprhates to prepare the way for the kings of the East...three evil spirits[black/air/tool] that look like frogs
that come out of the mouth of the dragon.   I beleive they are the Kingdom of darkness,/Babylon  the harlot Jewish/Christian and Muslem religions  of which the Jerusalem in bondage is
divided into three parts[earthquake] A cage of demons,full
of evil spirits,doctrines of hate and division.

   where will all this spiritual warfare lead? In the destruction of the lies/evils/corruptions of those that have been reigning on earth

  Now, what I've put out here,is just for thought, may the spirit of God clarify it to us all

[Molly]

Our spirit is a golden bowl with a silver cord that anchors it to

our fleshly body..this cord can be lengthened...and the spirit

move from the body..but still attached.When it is severed..this

physical /spiritual body  connection is finished.

Yes, I've seen that cord.  I shot out into space and way below me was the earth, as a planet in black space, and a silver cord attaching me, like an umbilical cord.  I could no longer see my body but I knew that if the cord broke, I would not return.



1Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth...


6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

--Ecclesiastes 12

[Molly]

Sheila, is it possible the golden bowl is not the spirit itself but a container?  The golden bowl and the pitcher are containers , the wheel at the cistern and the silver cord brings up the water from the well.  This seems to be talking about ways to procure and carry water.



The woman at the well--

13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

--John 4

[sheila]

 Yep! thats right....the vessels of the Lord that hold water,oil

  bread etc. Golden or clay....holy because of what was inside it

   the word of God or the breath of the Almighty.

   I knew it was not quite right,shortly after I posted it

    Proverbs 27;17  as iron sharpens iron,so one man sharpens another.   thanks for helping straighten it out,Molly

  loved your post,

     Sheila

[Molly]

What a lovely thought!  God pours out his love into the golden bowl of our hearts, minds, and souls. His love is the water of life everlasting.



Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.


hearts"

G2588
καρδία
kardia
kar-dee'-ah
Prolonged from a primary κάρ kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).

[annuit coeptis]

Thank You WW for the cut paste high light lesson... A