Eternal Security and not taking sin serious

[Universalist Catholic]

Have you ever heard someone say that Universalism completely undermines the seriousness of sin?  It seems like the Evangelicals take sin the most lightly.  All they have to do is believe, and punishment for them, despite their sins.

Does being saved mean that you can never loose salvation from age enduring punishment? If you choose to live in sin, unrepented. 

I read a comment that someone found universalism to be unjust.  They claim that an Age long Timeout is not Justice.

this was a dumpy review from the book Jeromes Conspiracy

You must take the Bible as a whole and not just pull ourt parts to justify your conclusions. Such a practice is called "text proofing" and is not a valid way of interpreting the Bible. The author conveniently disregards so many things, there isn't time to go into them all here. To provide just one to think about is the concept of satan. No scholar denies that satan is referred to and described in detail throughout the Bible. To what is satan's desire then, to just have us live godless lives here on earth and to watch us suffer a temporary punishment when we die? This would be akin to a nonbeliever getting a "time-out" from God until we become good boys and girls and are allowed to join Him.

That sounds like this guy thinks cleansing punishment is just. NOT

[gky]

Hello Universalist Catholic,

I've continued to enjoy your questions - they're spot on - thank you!

When I was in the ET camp and "serving in the music ministry" I would
occasionally have private debates about "once saved always saved" vs. "one can lose their salvation".  My take was the first - I believed in eternal security
(though after years of struggle, realized that to be very unsatisfactory).
And BTW, the church I was involved in leaned more towards a
"backslide - you can lose your salvation" mentality.

But you brought up points that I used in my rebuttals.
To have the audacity to think we can "maintain" our salvation is indicative
that we grossly underestimate the seriousness of sin and blatantly insult the holiness of God, implying that His level of holiness is attainable as long as we go to church, go to the right church, go to that church on Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesday night, serve in that church, read, pray, fellowship, remain submissive to the pastor, don't cause divisions, tithe hilariously etc.

Now "God forbid" I've bought into UR - LOL

When the phrase "God is a just God" was argued, I would sarcastically respond - "oh so YOU want God's justice" and go from there.

[ducktapehero]

I don't know if I sin more or less than when I was an ET'er but I do know this. When I avoid sinning now, it's out of love instead of merely fear. I love God and I know Sin hurts him so I try not to.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Religion has a hold over many people well beyond them leaving the physical church and even a dumping of the idea of hell,  many are so conditioned to think about the consequenses in the sense of the HORROR that many now claim to be sinless and that there really isn't anything wrong only what God has revealed and what he hasn't.

I have a friend who personally puts his wife in harms way and in reality the law cannot touch this kind of abuse,  he basically says if God wants me to stop, then he will make me since it's his ordained word that keeps me abusing her.

Someone asked me if we can willfully sin,  yep, and he is and there is no justification to say he will not reap consequenses for his behavior,  since he is convinced that religion telling him that his consequenses of hell is a lie, he really don't care.

Such is the evil of both extremes.

[eaglesway]

1Co 3:11-16  For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,  each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Rom 2:13-16  for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,  on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Luk 12:47-48  "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,  but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.


The way I read it, you can be in more hot water if you "know" than if you don't. I think the principles of the father's discipline, discernment and chastisement are more important than the specifics of what and when. From 1 Cor 3 it appears that you can suffer loss and still be saved......what you are saved from at the point you are losing your reward is an interesting thought trail.

[jabcat]

I believe we are to live a surrendered, obedient life - yet at the same time, I also believe it is only God that empowers us and works through us to do so.

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."  Phil. 1:6

It's by grace we are saved, through faith, and that not of ourselves - lest we should boast.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The way I read it, you can be in more hot water if you "know" than if you don't. I think the principles of the father's discipline, discernment and chastisement are more important than the specifics of what and when. From 1 Cor 3 it appears that you can suffer loss and still be saved......what you are saved from at the point you are losing your reward is an interesting thought trail.

As an earthly father I cannot say that the way I raised my children was in absolute perfection but what I do know is that there was a difference in how I saw the attitude of my kids when they would do something out of ignorance as opposed to doing something I knew good and well they knew better!

[ducktapehero]

As an earthly father I cannot say that the way I raised my children was in absolute perfection but what I do know is that there was a difference in how I saw the attitude of my kids when they would do something out of ignorance as opposed to doing something I knew good and well they knew better!

Exactly

[Beloved Servant]

John's Account 10  (CLV)


27 "My sheep are hearing My voice, and I know them, and they are following Me.
28 And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to be snatching them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and the Father, We are one."

[jabcat]

John's Account 10  (CLV)


27 "My sheep are hearing My voice, and I know them, and they are following Me.
28 And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to be snatching them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and the Father, We are one."

:thumbsup:     :happyclap:     :bowing:

[jabcat]

For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.  2 Tim 1:12  

It's about Him.  I can't do it, but He can.  "..looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith..." Hebrews 12:2

[Universalist Catholic]

It makes me sick that so many people really want to believe in eternal punishment.  Scholars have proven that "Aion" deals with "Age", while eternity was represented as "Adion".  Not to mention, the scriptures point out clearly that we are promised a future where no evil will exist.  Not to mention, the early Greek Fathers understood what the scriptures meant, plus they all lived in Middle Eastern Cultures, and would understand Middle Eastern Context better than the Latin Churches, along with these new Fundamentalist Churches. 

[eaglesway]

Rev 5:11-14  Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,  saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."  And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."  And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.

In this instance I think the "Amen" is sort of like "YAAAYYYY!!!"  :bgdance:


Php 2:9-11  For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"YAAAYYYYY!!!" :boogie: :boydance: :myahoo: :Egyptdance2: :egyptdance: :dsunny: