Judas

[jabcat]

Yep.  Pretty amazing.  Sure doesn't fit orthodox theology very well. 

[peacemaker]

"Absalom fled on a swift mule; but was found hanging on the branch of tree."

Was it Jesus' desire to proclaim himself, king?
Was it his desire to be pierced through with nails?
To be cast into a tomb, a grave covered with stone?

Cain was branded with the guilt of fratricide, much in the same way as Judas.
Except he wandered from place to place in adversity; calamity or distress, accusing others of
wanting to take his life. Interesting?

"The use of power with which God has imbued mankind is deadly, when wielded by corrupted flesh."

peacemaker

[Livelystone]

Judas stood with the other 11, and heard Jesus say this;

"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Matthew 19:28

Also there's this;  The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  Rev. 21:14

Regeneration - Judas included.  How does one overlook UR when reading these verses?  (Not to mention God's love, power, grace, forgiveness, sovereignty!).   :bowing:

I'd assume that they believe that Judas' name was replaced with another's, but I've never actually heard anyone who doesn't believe in UR say one way or the other, I don't think.

Man picked Mathis to take Judas place but we never heard of him doing anything that showed that there was anything special about him. However when God picked one we see Paul who understood before the others the deep truths of the mysteries of God.

Fact is there are a lot of people picking pastors preachers, priests and so on but are they chosen by God? Paul was and it showed however Mathis was picked by man and that showed to.

Doug

[WhiteWings]

I can't speak for others regarding "Jesus wished he never was born"

Jesus wished who had never been born?

I think that perhaps you are misunderstanding what is being said, at least by me if I am one of the ones you are referring to.

I didn't refer to anyone. Livelystone mentioned it and I just answer that I speak for myself. Not trying to prove or disprove anyone else. That's all.

No disagreement there.
I don't know exactly to word this....
Can't we seperate the pleasure Jesus had in His mission and the "wished never had to be born" of the torture? I think the following verse shows that.

^KJV Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

What is your understanding of the "never been born" statement? Sorry but it's not clear to me who are you saying wished who was never born.  :mblush:

Depends on who explains it. Some translations are a bit vague. Others seem to be clear "that man" = Judas.
But articles that look at the original Greek are more mixed. Different versions of the original. No agreement on how to read it. A few month ago I saw a documentary about it on National Gegrahpic or History Channel. yeah I'm aware it's secular. The advantage of that is that they have no agenda about Judas. Some scholars were interviewed/quoted. The outcome was a little mixed but Judas might have been following orders.

But when I read Dutch and English translations I can say that several strongly point to Judas="that man" while others are just to vague to use. Perhaps because those translators saw the difficulty and tried to translate around the issue.
Personally I have no agenda to push. I don't care who it's about. I only want to know the true meaning. Judas killed himself so he certainly wasn't a happy man. Jesus sweated blood because of fear. No happy man either. So as far as I'm concerned it it was better for both not to be born.
Again not talking about the whole life. Just the last hours of pain.
In Dutch we have the same saying as that verse. But it's always about the moment of pain. Not the rest of the life. And that's another thing we should take care of. We shouldn't read how we use words. How did the culture at Jesus time use certain words. That's a thing not to be overlooked.
Plus there was for a very long time a misunderstanding that NT was written in the Greek that was know during the early translations. 200 (?) years ago it was discovered it was a dialect with it's own rules. I'm getting way off-topic here... I just want to say that some verses require (very) good understanding of Koine Greek. I don't have that. So I have to rely on articles. And when articles are mixed, it's very hard for me to make a choice. I don't want a choice that fits with my believes. In that case it would be very easy. Just pick the explanation I want.

A final thing I already mentioned. Satan entered Judas. A few verses before that Jesus prevented satan entering Peter. Why? Just because Jesus final hours had come? Or not to spoil a plan?

[WhiteWings]

Judas stood with the other 11, and heard Jesus say this;

"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Matthew 19:28

Also there's this;  The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  Rev. 21:14

Regeneration - Judas included.  How does one overlook UR when reading these verses?  (Not to mention God's love, power, grace, forgiveness, sovereignty!).   :bowing:

Seems very UR at first sight......
Is someone that betrays (or more accurately hands over. different meaning) a follower?
That would mean Jesus spoke to only 11. So that's problematic too.
Surely Jesus wasn't unaware what Judas was going to do.
Does the verse show the great mercey of God? Or does it (also) show that Judas acted according to plan?

[Livelystone]

The fact that Judas although chosen was still taken over by satan certainly shows that one being chosen. saved, christian or otherwise does not prevent them from being used by satan to commit sins to fulfill his evil desires.

The fact that he through his transgression was removed from being one of the 12, translated means he was judged for his sin. Then in addition he went unto his own special place that there is no indication that it was anything else but during the resurrection and plenty of scriptures that do.

I say this because both Paul and Jesus warn us of Christians being judged in the resurrection for the sins they have committed in this life

He 6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

So does Jesus

Luke 12: 5 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.


Likewise when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats who also are "Christians" that takes place in the resurrection He then casts them off to the same place reserved for the devil and his angels. Then what about the story of lazarus and the rich man?....... They both called Abraham to be father signifying being chosen but one was being comforted while the other was being denied water for his thirst yet both were "sons"........ certainly judgement going on there and the rich man is most unhappy about it.

All of the above is what I was referring to when I said that where he was going to was no bed of roses and not just because he was ashamed and committed suicide......... but because it was judgement in the resurection.

Fact is Christians do not want to hear that that they will be judged in the resurrection for any of the sins that they have committed when the truth is that they will......... then we have UR advocates taking it even further preaching that even unbelievers do not get  judged in the resurrection that contrary to what they think is not helping to win people to Christ.

AS far as Judas sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging Israel  :thumbdown:.......... There is no scripture to support that theory and much to refute it. There no record of Judas following Jesus through the regeneration also that would have required both obedience from Judas as well as his presence at Pentecost instead of his absence........ Then on top of that the only one that Judas was being obedient to and following after was satan and not Jesus.

For sure Judas did not go to any place where I would ever want to be and the only question that remains is how long will he have to stay there at the special place reserved for him?............ because Judas was the one who would have been better off had he never been born  :thumbsup:

Blessings

Doug

[jabcat]

I guess we just see some of this regarding Judas differently, because I see the scriptures I presented as actually being 2 possible ones supporting the idea re: Judas' restoration.  As I noted, Judas was present when Jesus said those things.  I also believe Judas was fulfilling the role that he was set aside for.  Sin, for sure - miserable in judgment, in need of repentance, forgiveness, redemption, for sure - but as with Adam and Eve and Pharoah, still playing his part as assigned.

Since I don't know every single detail of how God does things, I don't know that Judas either hasn't already been judged and corrected, or will be prior to the ruling and reigning events.  I can study it out further, but I take Jesus referencing "the regeneration" to mean a later date, when He has judged and fixed things.

I don't know for sure, it just seems to be an interesting thought and possibility.  I imagine there are things that are more important.

Also, I also don't advocate a passive acceptance of sin nor advocate living for the flesh.  We reap what we sow, God will not be mocked, and there is a wide road that leads to destruction or a narrow path that leads to life.  James.

[WhiteWings]

AS far as Judas sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging Israel  :thumbdown:.......... There is no scripture to support that theory and much to refute it.

No debate just a quetion.

"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Matthew 19:28

Judas was one of the 12 (at that time)
Only followers sit on the thrones.
If Judas is no follower who sits on the 12th throne?
But is the verse really speaking about 12 people? Surely there are more than 12 followers.
IIRC the saints are going to rule with Jesus during the 1000 years (literal or otherwise)
There are more than just 12 saints.
12 is as returning number. Could just as well mean 12 tribes. Or something else.

So my question is: Who is "you" in that verse?
(note: you is plural)

[WhiteWings]

I guess we just see some of this regarding Judas differently, because I see the scriptures I presented as actually being 2 possible ones supporting the idea re: Judas' restoration.  As I noted, Judas was present when Jesus said those things...

True, but I think much of the words of Jesus had a hidden (greater) meaning. So.... well read my previous reply to livelystone. :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

I also believe Judas was fulfilling the role that he was set aside for.  Sin, for sure - miserable in judgment, in need of repentance, forgiveness, redemption, for sure - but as with Adam and Eve and Pharoah, still playing his part as assigned.

That's very hard to understand for me. Going to make a few assumptions to explain myself better....
I mentioned a documentary about Judas earlier. They claim certain writings found (not all in the Bible) hint toward/state that Jesus ordered Judas to do what he did.
That makes me think of: "I also believe Judas was fulfilling the role that he was set aside for."

So Judas followed orders of Jesus. Jesus followed the plan of Father.
Then how can obeying the 2 highest 'people' in existence be a sin against those same 'people'?
If Judas hands over Jesus he sins because he was partly responsible for the death of Jesus.
But if he didn't betray Jesus he would have ignored a direct command and that's also a sin.
And IF that documentary is true I can very well imagine Judas wished he never was born. Judas is always seen as a traitor. An animal. But what if he dearly loved Jesus? And his part to play was helping the one he loved getting killed.

Just some thoughts. I haven't drawn a conclusion for myself yet. 50-50 right now.

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:

[Livelystone]

AS far as Judas sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging Israel  :thumbdown:.......... There is no scripture to support that theory and much to refute it.

No debate just a quetion.

"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Matthew 19:28

Judas was one of the 12 (at that time)
Only followers sit on the thrones.
If Judas is no follower who sits on the 12th throne?
But is the verse really speaking about 12 people? Surely there are more than 12 followers.
IIRC the saints are going to rule with Jesus during the 1000 years (literal or otherwise)
There are more than just 12 saints.
12 is as returning number. Could just as well mean 12 tribes. Or something else.

So my question is: Who is "you" in that verse?
(note: you is plural)

In order for a person to experience "being regenerated" they must take part in that part of the *first step* of "regeneration" that happens through receiving the Holy Spirit.......... and as you know the Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost and we do not see Judas there.

Judas is never portrayed in a good light always being seen in a sinister role of deception using the treasury for his own design yet I wonder what was his reasoning behind betraying Jesus? I have heard different ideas that do have some degree of plausibility but nothing that ever sounded the gong for me.

Judas certainly experienced some type of repentance but so do most that are convicted of murder just as Cain (who is compared to Judas) did but was worrying for his own future rather than the brother he murdered.

Neither do I think that there are just 12 individuals fulfilling any one role but that particular numbers point to a role being fulfilled...... That is repeated throughout the scheme of Bible mathematics and 12 is seen in 24 as well as in the 144,000

Regarding the gospel of Judas......... I have read some of the gnostic works but not that one. All I will say about any of them is that one should first posses discernment between good and evil if they are going to go enter into them. Problem is that most think that they posses that discernment when they do not. Words are the seeds that when given life by us create knowledge in the image that spawned them and there are only two original images obtained through knowledge that are good and evil. Consequently at best you have only a 50% chance of getting something good but what makes it worse is that evil at its best does not appear to be evil........ it is transformed to appear as a messenger of righteousness just like all the rest of the false doctrines first did that have taken over the church.

To Peacemaker........ In one of my replies mistakenly attributed the idea brought forth in this thread of Judas being obedient to God when he did what he did to you rather than who did post that erroneous word..........  I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness.

Blessings

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

To Peacemaker........ In one of my replies mistakenly attributed the idea brought forth in this thread of Judas being obedient to God when he did what he did to you rather than who did post that erroneous word..........  I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness.

Blessings

Doug

If you are referring to me, Doug, I simply said: " Some say — that Judas can be viewed as obedient — more so than a traitor."
It is post No. 1 of this thread.

[Livelystone]

To Peacemaker........ In one of my replies mistakenly attributed the idea brought forth in this thread of Judas being obedient to God when he did what he did to you rather than who did post that erroneous word..........  I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness.

Blessings

Doug

If you are referring to me, Doug, I simply said: " Some say — that Judas can be viewed as obedient — more so than a traitor."
It is post No. 1 of this thread.

No I was not............ although the "some" that you have referred to in your post are in error the post I was referring to was made by forum member "Syndicated"

Blessings

Doug

[Chris]

Man picked Mathis to take Judas place but we never heard of him doing anything that showed that there was anything special about him. However when God picked one we see Paul who understood before the others the deep truths of the mysteries of God.

Fact is there are a lot of people picking pastors preachers, priests and so on but are they chosen by God? Paul was and it showed however Mathis was picked by man and that showed to.

Doug

Many will say that even Paul called himself and was not chosen by God. They will dismiss anything that Paul says that they think is "contradictory" to the rest of scripture. And even those who don't think that put Peter ahead of Paul because they claim that Christ said that He would build his church "on Peter".

I think the important difference between Paul and the rest of the Apostles - who where specifically chosen to be "witnesses" of Christ's death and resurrection so had to know Christ AFTER THE FLESH - was that Paul didn't know Christ after the flesh but had Christ revealed to Him by revelation, through THE SPIRIT.

And neither are we to know Christ after the flesh, as we are to know know NO MAN after flesh. Yet how many divide things according to the flesh anyway? Even those who claim to be "spiritually minded"? For example, there are still many, even in the UR camps, that will not allow "a woman" (according to a carnal truth, rather than a spiritual one) "to teach" because they still judge things "according to the flesh" and they have no clue who "the woman" is that Paul said he would not allow to teach. But that is for another topic.  :winkgrin:

[Beth]

WOW lots of replies which I am not able to read at this time.  I did however, want to clarify that I in no way implied that Judas' betrayal made Jesus "wish He had never been born."  That is not what that scripture declared at all.   Jesus said "better" for the "son of man" that "that man" had not been born.  My point in bringing this out is that there is more being said here (and worthy of further consideration) than what is generally understood.

:girlheart:

[Chris]

I can't speak for others regarding "Jesus wished he never was born"

Jesus wished who had never been born?

I think that perhaps you are misunderstanding what is being said, at least by me if I am one of the ones you are referring to.

I didn't refer to anyone. Livelystone mentioned it and I just answer that I speak for myself. Not trying to prove or disprove anyone else. That's all.

It wasn't an accusation. I was just trying to clarify what I said as I am one of the others who addressed that passage. But I did not say that "Jesus wished he never was born". I don't recall anyone saying that, but wasn't sure who the "he" was in your sentence either so was wondering.

Depends on who explains it. Some translations are a bit vague. Others seem to be clear "that man" = Judas.
But articles that look at the original Greek are more mixed. Different versions of the original. No agreement on how to read it. A few month ago I saw a documentary about it on National Gegrahpic or History Channel. yeah I'm aware it's secular. The advantage of that is that they have no agenda about Judas. Some scholars were interviewed quoted. The outcome was a little mixed but it Judas might have been following orders.

But when I read Dutch and English translations then I can say that several strongly point to Judas="that man" while others are just to vague to use. Perhaps because those translators saw the difficulty and tried to translate around the issue.
Personally I have no agenda to push. I don't care who it's about. I only want to know the true meaning. Judas killed himself so he certainly wasn't a happy man. Jesus sweated blood because of fear. No happy man either. So as far as I'm concerned it it was better for both not to be born.
Again not talking about the whole life. Just the last hours is pain.
In Dutch we have the same saying as that verse. But it's always about the moment of pain. Not the rest of the life. And that's another thing we should take care of. We shouldn't read how we use words. How did the culture at Jesus time use certain words. That's a thing not to be overlooked.
Plus there was for a very long time a misunderstanding that NT was written in the Greek that was know during the early translations. 200 (?) years ago it was discovered it was a dialect with it's own rules. I'm getting way off-topic here... I just want to say that some verses require (very) good understanding of Koine Greek. I don't have that. So I have to rely on articles. And when articles are mixed, it's very hard for me to make a choice. I don't want a choice that fits with my believes. In that case it would be very easy. Just pick the explanation I want.

A final thing I already mentioned. Satan entered Judas. A few verses before that Jesus prevented satan entering Peter. Why? Just because Jesus final hours had come? Or not to spoil a plan?


history channel

It does seem pretty evident that "that man" is Judas since he is named in the passage and we know with certainty who it was (Judas) that betrayed the Lord. And I agree that the rest can be confusing and there are varying opinions about it.

I don't know that I believe that Jesus did sweat blood (literally), as Luke says he sweat "as if" (hōsei) it were great drops of blood. So while it's possible I'm not sure that it the point, but I think that it is significant that is describes as "falling down to the ground".  :thumbsup:

What are you referring to when you say that Jesus prevented Satan from entering into Peter?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Not saying He did or didn't, but I read a doctor's account of Calvary, and it is physiologically possible to "sweat" blood through the capillaries close to the surface of the skin when in extreme stress.

I personally think He did, for the scriptural reason that sweat was an offense in the sanctuary, which is why the HG does the works, and He IS the sanctuary. Blessings....

[peacemaker]

Peacemaker....... Was Judas obeying God when he betrayed Jesus........ nada not a chance brother. God NEVER tempts with sin let alone lead someone into it............ plus the scriptures say that it was Satan who entered into Judas's heart and therefore it was satan that led him to betray Jesus  ......... that much you can take to the bank. :thumbsup:

To Peacemaker........ In one of my replies mistakenly attributed the idea brought forth in this thread of Judas being obedient to God when he did what he did to you rather than who did post that erroneous word..........  I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness.

I took it as a question that was in the form of a statement, and the thumbs up appeared to collaborate this understanding.
I do appreciate the thoughtfulness which entered your heart and mind, although, there is no need to apologize.

Blessings to you, brother Doug.

[WhiteWings]

It does seem pretty evident that "that man" is Judas since he is named in the passage and we know with certainty who it was (Judas) that betrayed the Lord. And I agree that the rest can be confusing and there are varying opinions about it.

Judas was certainly part of the deal. But the word betrayed....
Among other things that was topic in the documentary. What is translated as betrayed can also mean 'to hand over'
Betrayed is always negative. 'hand over not' always. Strong confirms that.
The the "Judas kiss" also seen as negative etc. But that's also doubted. Could also be some sort of fare well kiss.
In a loving manner.
Judas was involved. That's 100% sure. But his exact role is unclear. At least it's to me....

I don't know that I believe that Jesus did sweat blood (literally), as Luke says he sweat "as if" (hōsei) it were great drops of blood. 

It's possible and medically accepted. Just Google for sweating blood.
One quote:

Although this medical condition is relatively rare, according to Dr. Frederick Zugibe (Chief Medical Examiner of Rockland County, New York) it is well-known, and there have been many cases of it. The clinical term is "hematohidrosis." "Around the sweat glands, there are multiple blood vessels in a net-like form." Under the pressure of great stress the vessels constrict. Then as the anxiety passes "the blood vessels dilate to the point of rupture. The blood goes into the sweat glands." As the sweat glands are producing a lot of sweat, it pushes the blood to the surface - coming out as droplets of blood mixed with sweat.

So while it's possible I'm not sure that it the point, but I think that it is significant that is describes as "falling down to the ground".  :thumbsup:

While I can see the significance of blood+ground it also shows the extreme stress Jesus was under. And in that hour Jesus might wished He was not born.

What are you referring to when you say that Jesus prevented Satan from entering into Peter?

Luke 22:31-32  And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:  32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

[Chris]

The fact that Judas although chosen was still taken over by satan certainly shows that one being chosen. saved, christian or otherwise does not prevent them from being used by satan to commit sins to fulfill his evil desires.

Is anyone out of satan's reach? Even Paul spoke of struggling with the flesh and doing those things which he desired not to do and being unable to do that which he desired to do. Right? 

The fact that he through his transgression was removed from being one of the 12, translated means he was judged for his sin.

He was judged and removed by whom?

Then in addition he went unto his own special place that there is no indication that it was anything else but during the resurrection and plenty of scriptures that do.

He went to his grave. A natural shadow of a spiritual truth that applies to all who sin, does it not? Do we not all "remain in the graves" ("the body of this death" that Paul spoke of) UNTIL we hear the voice of the Lord calling us OUT of it? 

I say this because both Paul and Jesus warn us of Christians being judged in the resurrection for the sins they have committed in this life


He 6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

What does it mean to taste the good word of God and the powers of the age to come? Doesn't the chapter start out with "let us go on unto perfection"? So isn't Paul talking about going on "unto perfection"? Talking about the difference between "a child" (which differs nothing from a servant) and "A SON" (one who has Christ formed IN THEM)?

Who is this applicable to? Those who have died or those who are living?

So does Jesus

Luke 12: 5 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Christ comes the second time unto them that look for Him; we are told to WATCH for His appearing and He has promised not to leave us COMFORTLESS.

CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory. Right?

So, again I have to ask, does this have to do with those who have died or those who are living?

With regard to being beaten with many or few stripes, it is not "in the earth" that both the righteous and the wicked are recompensed?

Pro 11:31  Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

Even "into their bosom"?

Isa 65:6  Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

Likewise when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats who also are "Christians" that takes place in the resurrection He then casts them off to the same place reserved for the devil and his angels.

Yet, Jesus Christ is THE resurrection and THE life, right? (1 John 11:25) And we are first DRAGGED IN before those without a wedding garment are (bound hand and foot) CAST OUT.

Jesus said:

Joh 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

NOW is the judgment of this world, according to Christ. We are judged by the cross of Christ, are we not? So why are we still looking for judgment? This life isn't "hell" enough for anyone? 

Then what about the story of lazarus and the rich man?....... They both called Abraham to be father signifying being chosen but one was being comforted while the other was being denied water for his thirst yet both were "sons"........ certainly judgement going on there and the rich man is most unhappy about it.

Where did Lazarus call Abraham "father"? He was caught up to the bosom of Abraham while the rich man (who called Abraham "father") found himself "in hades" and was "tormented in this flame" (singular - that was ON HIS TONGUE).

Note that ONLY THE RICH MAN was "buried".

This parable is not about judgment in the "afterlife".

All of the above is what I was referring to when I said that where he was going to was no bed of roses and not just because he was ashamed and committed suicide......... but because it was judgement in the resurection.

We are judged HERE.

Fact is Christians do not want to hear that that they will be judged in the resurrection for any of the sins that they have committed when the truth is that they will......... then we have UR advocates taking it even further preaching that even unbelievers do not get  judged in the resurrection that contrary to what they think is not helping to win people to Christ.

Jesus Christ himself is the one who said NOW IS THE JUDGMENT OF THIS WORLD, Doug. Scripture says that we are judged IN THE EARTH, even INTO OUR BOSOMS. We REAP what we SOW.

We are called NOW to be reconciled to God - OR FACE JUDGMENT! The wrath of God abides upon (present tense, according to Paul) those who believe not. Does it not? 

AS far as Judas sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging Israel  :thumbdown:.......... There is no scripture to support that theory and much to refute it. There no record of Judas following Jesus through the regeneration also that would have required both obedience from Judas as well as his presence at Pentecost instead of his absence........ Then on top of that the only one that Judas was being obedient to and following after was satan and not Jesus.

Judas was still one of the ones who that promise was made to. Could he have lost His reward? Sure. But does that mean that He did and God will not fulfill that promise? I wouldn't want to be the one to say so without more to go on than the fact that Judas killed himself.

What happened at Pentecost speaks to a higher spiritual truth that are not limited to that one day in time.

For sure Judas did not go to any place where I would ever want to be and the only question that remains is how long will he have to stay there at the special place reserved for him?

He went to the grave where we all go, whether according to a carnal truth or a spiritual one.

because Judas was the one who would have been better off had he never been born  :thumbsup:

Interesting. So then all who are cast into the lake of fire would have been "better off" not having ever been born? Is that what you are saying?

[Chris]

I was not claiming that Jesus didn't sweat blood or that it is not possible. I even said in my post that it was possible.

I am very aware that, medically, it is possible.

I was just pointing out that it is not stated in such a way that makes it a "fact". I gave the Greek word, which seems to me to indicate that Luke was saying that His SWEAT was "as if it were" GREAT DROP OF BLOOD, but not that is "was".

I certainly have no problem with it being either. I think the point is more of the anguish that He suffered and I think that the fact that his sweat/blood (literally or figurative) falls to the ground and even (spiritually) COVERS THE EARTH is quite beautiful.

[Chris]

What are you referring to when you say that Jesus prevented Satan from entering into Peter?

Luke 22:31-32  And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:  32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Thanks! You said it was something written "a few verses before" satan entered Judas (Luke 22:3 and John 13;27) and I could not find anything there except Jesus washing the feet of His disciples, so I wasn't sure what you were referring to, if not that.

But the fact that Jesus prayed for Peter's faith not to fail (knowing what satans desire is) didn't prevent Peter from stumbling; even before that Jesus said to Peter "get thee behind me satan".

Peter seems to stumble several times; you don't attribute that to satan (sin lying at the door, ready to devour us if we don't rule over it)?

[WhiteWings]

What are you referring to when you say that Jesus prevented Satan from entering into Peter?

Luke 22:31-32  And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:  32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Thanks! You said it was something written "a few verses before" satan entered Judas (Luke 22:3 and John 13;27)

Whoops. Shoulda checked before I wrote that from memory.

But the fact that Jesus prayed for Peter's faith not to fail (knowing what satans desire is) didn't prevent Peter from stumbling; even before that Jesus said to Peter "get thee behind me satan".

Perhaps the prayer of Jesus only had effect on a certain unmentioned stumbling?
The way you write it, it sounds like you are saying the prayer of Jesus failed. And I think you are not trying to say that.
I'm sure Jesus prayed often to stop stumbling. Not every word/action of Jesus is written down.
Then I wonder why is this time so special that it is written down? Just to show the powers of Jesus?
Maybe so. But personally I think there are other reasons to mention it. A connection with Judas? I'm no scholar. Far faaaaar from it :winkgrin: But I learned one thing: A verse never has just only one simple meaning.
Just thinking out loud.

Peter seems to stumble several times; you don't attribute that to satan (sin lying at the door, ready to devour us if we don't rule over it)?

Prepare for another vague answer...
Before I started reading TentMaker it was simple for me. If I do something bad it's me to blame.
Some Christian think it's being under control of Satan. But on TentMaker (and Ray's site) I've read other views. Just to not derail this thread I mention that satan got permission of God to test Job. So yes most certainly Peter stumbled. But who is/are to blame :sigh:
Typical case of: When you learn more you know you know less  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

Not saying I fully understand this, but it seems to me that somehow in the whole scheme of things, whatever our lot in life is, we're still accountable.  For instance, even though Judas was vessel of dishonor, it didn't mean that what he did wasn't sin, or that he didn't need to be forgiven and "fixed".  Again, can't fully explain it, but if I sin, it may be the "law of sin and death working in me", but it's still IN ME, so I'm held accountable for it.  That's why the confession on my part and the forgiveness on God's part.   :Chinscratch: