Judas

[Zeek]

So did Judas go to "a bed of roses"? No he didn't. He went to his grave in shame. :mblush:   

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[chuckt]

Hey guys writing from my mobile phone so not very exciting text. I was thinking, when Jesus says that He did not loose any of those that the Father gave him, does that include Judas? Most Eter's would say judas was well and truly lost forever but does Jesus say differently?

Judas's lost his allotment and his house was left desolate.

that dosent mean he wont be ""saved""

chuckt

[WhiteWings]

The prodical son lost his allotment too.

[Beth]

That doesn't make it correct, but would it make sense to say that it would have been good for "the Son of Man" if "Judas" (through whom He would delivered up to be crucified) has not been born?

I believe that it does, particularly since it is "the Son of Man" (as opposed to "the Son of God") that is being referred to by Christ.

I was going to bring this up.  L. Ray Smith had written about this, but I couldn't find it.  I remember years ago when I first read Ray, I checked out the Greek and it does appear that the "him" is referring to the Son of Man.

:girlheart:

[chuckt]

The prodical son lost his allotment too.

yup he squandered it away.....

[WhiteWings]

The prodical son lost his allotment too.

yup he squandered it away.....

Of course it's not huge revelation when I say the father for the parable is our heavenly Father. The son is creation (that sins etc).
When the son returned he was cast out. -->annihilated
Neither did he get some sort of punishment. -> "hell"
He got a party from a father that cried of happiness. -> UR

The big question is; will God give prodical son Judas a party?
I think the answer is yes. (besides the question: Did Judas rebel or follow orders?)

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I believe there is one paramount scripture that should teach us what the word "apollumi" means. "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which is lost (apollumi)." (Luke 19:10) This passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus; he was lost, destroyed. Because he was lost, he was ready to be found and saved. The theory of most false definitions of "apollumi" is to prove that the word means "death" from which there is no resurrection, practical annihilation, a state from which salvation is impossible. This passage directly destroys this theory. Instead of the lost being beyond salvation, they alone are eligible for salvation. You cannot rescue a man who is save and sound. It is only when a man is in the state denoted by "apollumi" that salvation can operate in his behalf. Antithetical statements such as this are of great value in the study of words. The terms "seek" and "save," are accurate indications of the opposite of destroy. One who is "destroyed" must be lost or no one would seek him. He must be in a state which calls for salvation or Christ would not have come for him. This proves that destruction is a salvable condition, not a state beyond the reach of deliverance. Add to this the fact only the "lost" are "saved" and it reverses the usual theory of "destruction." God seeks what he has "lost." It is a sad fact that most Christians believe that Jesus is seeking to save the "lost" yet on the other hand they do not believe that He will save the "lost." They do not believe that Jesus will save "lost" mankind. Thus Jesus will not be successful in seeking and saving the lost.

"Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished (apollumi)." (1 Cor. 15:18) Are the Christians who are now sleeping deprived of future life? They are at present time "perished." They are now deprived of life, but in the future, they will be resurrected to life that is immortal.

"But if thy brother be grieve with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitable, destroy (apollumi) not him with thy meat for whom Christ died." (Rom. 14:15, compare 1 Cor. 8:11) According to these scriptures, we can destroy one of our brethren by eating foods which he deems unclean. Does our eating deprive him of life? That would be an easy way to commit legal murder.

Destruction is a relative term. The coin was lost in relation to the woman. (Luke 15:8,9) The sheep was destroyed as regards to the shepherd. (Luke 15:4-7) The prodigal son had perished in relation to his father. (Luke 15:11-32) So with the destroyed sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10:5,6) They were not deprived of life, they were away from the great shepherd, their Creator. The prodigals were far off from their father who created them, who loves them, who commissioned His Son Jesus to come to seek and save them. Does this prove they were outside of this affair of salvation? It proves the opposite. Destruction is a prelude to salvation. It never means ultimate annihilation.

[peacemaker]

That doesn't make it correct, but would it make sense to say that it would have been good for "the Son of Man" if "Judas" (through whom He would delivered up to be crucified) has not been born?

I believe that it does, particularly since it is "the Son of Man" (as opposed to "the Son of God") that is being referred to by Christ.

:smile:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just to throw this in for good measure, there comes a time if you go on to follow the Lord, when a revelation comes to you personally, that it would be better if you had never been born (in the flesh) as Job did, and he is the one that received the DOUBLE PORTION. It's the revelation of the realization that all is vanity (Eccles.) Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

I believe there is one paramount scripture that should teach us what the word "apollumi" means. "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which is lost (apollumi)." (Luke 19:10) This passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus; he was lost, destroyed. Because he was lost, he was ready to be found and saved.

Lee I agree with that but the way it formulated it can be misread (on purpose).
Like "ready to be found" means that the lost person has to want to be found. -> Repent etc.
But the coin was also "apollumi". And that coin didn't have any desire to be found.
I think that's a very important addition to that word and the whole lost/found teachings.
It means the truely lost will also be found. Some know they are lost. But do you think the lost muslim thinks s/he is lost because s/he doesn't follow Jesus.....?
Even if all Christians qualify to be found it would mean Salvation is a failure because Jesus was/is unable to save the whole world. And that world includes other religions also.
:2c:

[peacemaker]

He spent every penny, from a twopenny to an eighty penny; nailing it!
And do you know that the holding power of a common nail, drops by half within two days after being driven?

Now, that's Resurrection Power!

:thumbsup:

[Livelystone]

I believe there is one paramount scripture that should teach us what the word "apollumi" means. "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which is lost (apollumi)." (Luke 19:10) This passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus; he was lost, destroyed. Because he was lost, he was ready to be found and saved.

Lee I agree with that but the way it formulated it can be misread (on purpose).
Like "ready to be found" means that the lost person has to want to be found. -> Repent etc.
But the coin was also "apollumi". And that coin didn't have any desire to be found.
I think that's a very important addition to that word and the whole lost/found teachings.
It means the truely lost will also be found. Some know they are lost. But do you think the lost muslim thinks s/he is lost because s/he doesn't follow Jesus.....?

Even if all Christians qualify to be found it would mean Salvation is a failure because Jesus was/is unable to save the whole world. And that world includes other religions also.
:2c:

Taking your post at face value when do propose that those who worship under faiths without Jesus ........ when are they found ????

Blessings.

Doug

[WhiteWings]

Taking your post at face value when do propose that those who worship under faiths without Jesus ........ when are they found ????

When I can't answer. That's not under our control. The coin only got found when the woman decided she has to search for it. The lost sheep was only found when the shepherd decided it was time to go search for that lost sheep. Only the prodical son saw his error and returned.

I think those parables even show 3 modes of salvation.

Prodical son: The son repented. He eventually knew he was wrong and his father was right.
The sheep: Not very sure about this one because I don't know what sheep think. But I think a sheep will notice he is no longer in the flock and likely wants to return. But can only do so with help of the shepherd.
The coin: Totally unaware of right and wrong.

No direct answer.... I simply don't have one....
My guess is after death. Simply because noone can deny that most have not found Jesus in this lifetime. And because the only way to Father is by the Son it means somehow they have to find or to be found by the Son after death.
?

[peacemaker]

Doug, same question of you, that is asked of Whitewings?

[Livelystone]

WW

First thanks for not quoting my whole post again and giving me a chance to properly place my reply after yours. :mblush:

No direct answer.... I simply don't have one....
My guess is after death. Simply because no one can deny that most have not found Jesus in this lifetime. And because the only way to Father is by the Son it means somehow they have to find or to be found by the Son after death

Simply put I do not have a direct answer either and considering that ALL things are at some point albeit not neccessarily in time are reconciled unto Jesus does leave a lot unanswered. Because for sure according to scripture God does hold souls accountable after ones death and the books are not opened before the GWT without a reason.

When the goats are cast off is that to be assumed to be in this life?.......I do not think so and since goats are clean animals that unlike sheep who are followers, goats are a very stubborn lot preferring to hang out with horses so well that horse owners often buy a goat to keep their horse(s) company.

Then we have other things to consider such as the first will be last and the last shall be first.  :Chinscratch:

For sure as a member of the Apostles Judas was a first that will IMO be the very last one other than other members of a possible corporate body of other Judas(s). Although some here seem to indicate that without his betrayal of Jesus that in their opinion made Jesus wish He had never been born :thumbdown: despite the fact that the scriptures teach some of us that for joy Jesus endured the Cross and for the Cross alone was the reason that He came to earth, IMO to say the least displays a high degree of qualifications that will not get one advanced to the head of the class .......

........ other than that my lips are sealed  :msealed:

But I am with you and neither do I have a definite.

Blessings to you

Doug

PS Peacemaker....... I assume (hate that word) that is the "when" question.

[WhiteWings]

Although some here seem to indicate that without his betrayal of Jesus that in their opinion made Jesus wish He had never been born :thumbdown: despite the fact that the scriptures teach some of us that for joy Jesus endured the Cross and for the Cross alone was the reason that He came to earth, IMO to say the least displays a high degree of qualifications that will not get one advanced to the head of the class .......

I can't speak for others regarding "Jesus wished he never was born"
I strongly believe Jesus had a 100% drive to do His very best to follow orders of Father.
I also think He generally liked His life/job.
That said I can believe that Jesus wished He never had be born. For (parts of) His last day of His life.
Jesus was a man with a mission. But I don't think He enjoyed being tortured.

joy Jesus endured the Cross and for the Cross alone was the reason that He came to earth

No disagreement there.
I don't know exactly to word this....
Can't we seperate the pleasure Jesus had in His mission and the "wished never had to be born" of the torture? I think the following verse shows that.

^KJV Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

[Syndicated]

So, if it wasn't Judas — it would have been another.
For the plan HAD to be carried out.

100%  :thumbsup:

Jesus CAME TO BE crucified for the world, to have His blood spilled to save all!  Judas was obeying God to the fullest.  If it wasn't Judas there would HAVE TO BE ANOTHER that would have betrayed Jesus.  I believe that Judas' going to the grave the way he did WAS his punishment... could you imagine the shame and guilt you would have in the assisting of sending God's son to die?  It must have been hard to live with, even if he didn't realize that he was fully obeying God at the time.  God had everything planned out before it happened though, and thanks to Judas obeying God we now have salvation.

:2c: :icon_flower:

[peacemaker]

Peacemaker....... I assume (hate that word) that is the "when" question.

No postulation, only integrity; a necessary prerequisite.

Thanks!

[peacemaker]

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Truth always prevails!

[Livelystone]

No disagreement there.
I don't know exactly to word this....
Can't we seperate the pleasure Jesus had in His mission and the "wished never had to be born" of the torture? I think the following verse shows that.

KJV Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Of course we can........ what Jesus went through for us cannot be overstated  :HeartThrob:

I was just using that part to highlight my disagreement with some other posts that were not made by you.

When Jesus spoke of only loosing who was necessary to loose for the scriptures to be fulfilled IMO points both to Judas and that he suffered more lost than just an earthly allotment and a shameful death but was also resurrected to even more shame and dishonor......... Also there seems to be scriptural support for Absolom as a type and shadow of Judas who not only lost his life along with a future earthly throne but consequently lost any opportunity to be  found in the linage of Jesus........ I think it does say something to when one FOREVER looses a possible position in the linage leading up to divinity in human form that they might otherwise have had a shot at.

Still on this part of Absolom I need to study up on it lest I might speak out of turn and I too suffer some shame and dishonor  :laughing7:........ kinda just came to me as I was writing this

Peacemaker....... Was Judas obeying God when he betrayed Jesus........ nada not a chance brother. God NEVER tempts with sin let alone lead someone into it............ plus the scriptures say that it was Satan who entered into Judas's heart and therefore it was satan that led him to betray Jesus  ......... that much you can take to the bank. :thumbsup:

Blessings

Doug 

[jabcat]

Judas stood with the other 11, and heard Jesus say this;

"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Matthew 19:28

Also there's this;  The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  Rev. 21:14

Regeneration - Judas included.  How does one overlook UR when reading these verses?  (Not to mention God's love, power, grace, forgiveness, sovereignty!).   :bowing:

[Chris]

I can't speak for others regarding "Jesus wished he never was born"

Jesus wished who had never been born?

I think that perhaps you are misunderstanding what is being said, at least by me if I am one of the ones you are referring to.

It is not about "Jesus" wishing that "he" (who? Judas? Himself?) had never been born.

Jesus was talking about THE SON OF MAN who was to be delivered up to be crucified by Judas. Why would it be "better" FOR HIM (THE SON OF MAN) if "that man" (HIS BETRAYER) had never been born?

Think of it spiritually as it applies to "the son OF MAN" and not just to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.  Can you not see how it would be "better" for the son OF MAN if "that man" (the son of perdition, typified in Judas) had never been born?

I strongly believe Jesus had a 100% drive to do His very best to follow orders of Father.
I also think He generally liked His life/job.
That said I can believe that Jesus wished He never had be born. For (parts of) His last day of His life.
Jesus was a man with a mission. But I don't think He enjoyed being tortured.

Jesus was not only the Son of God, but the son of man. Right? He "condemned sin in the flesh" making the flesh subject to the spirit, subject to the will of His Father/God, right?

And this is what we must do, as well, no?

No disagreement there.
I don't know exactly to word this....
Can't we seperate the pleasure Jesus had in His mission and the "wished never had to be born" of the torture? I think the following verse shows that.

^KJV Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

What is your understanding of the "never been born" statement? Sorry but it's not clear to me who are you saying wished who was never born.  :mblush:

Are you saying that you believe that Jesus was saying that He (Jesus) wished HE (Jesus, himself) had never been born?

[Chris]

Judas stood with the other 11, and heard Jesus say this;

"Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Matthew 19:28

Also there's this;  The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  Rev. 21:14

Regeneration - Judas included.  How does one overlook UR when reading these verses?  (Not to mention God's love, power, grace, forgiveness, sovereignty!).   :bowing:

I'd assume that they believe that Judas' name was replaced with another's, but I've never actually heard anyone who doesn't believe in UR say one way or the other, I don't think.

[jabcat]

I guess many would try to explain it away (as with many other things) but that's been something that's struck me since God showing me a little of His plan of reconciliation - the context of the first line of my post.  Judas was standing there in Jesus' presence when He said that.  Makes me think also that Judas was actually considered as having "followed" Jesus.  As I stated earlier, I believe He was prepared as a vessel of dishonor, to play His role in the Big Plan - and to then be reconciled, broken, and reshaped by the Potter.  Seems to me his brokeness had already begun - with his guilt, violent death, and burial.  Notice Jesus references IN THE REGENERATION!   :thumbsup:

[Chris]

John 6:70  Jesus answered them,  Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

A "devil" and yet still "chosen".  :thumbsup: