The Blood of Jesus

[eaglesway]

The literal event unlocked the spiritual reality. The Holy Spirit distributes the benefits of the literal event through faith in both the literal efficacy of that event and the spiritual reality that resulted from it.

[jabcat]

The literal event unlocked the spiritual reality. The Holy Spirit distributes the benefits of the literal event through faith in both the literal efficacy of that event and the spiritual reality that resulted from it.

Amen.  I believe that's exactly right.

Byron, obviously Jesus often spoke of spiritual things - which were often displayed first in a literal event as well.  Eating His flesh and drinking His blood is spiritual/symbolic.  The blood He shed on the cross was literal and very real.  The Father required the sacrifice.  I don't know "WHO" it was "paid to"...but it was paid for us.  IMO, too many scriptures clearly state and indicate as so.  May not be able to totally explain every detail of it, but I must accept the scriptures, not try to explain them away.  God will tell me rest later if He so chooses.



Hebrews 9
American Standard Version  

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.... priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing; 9 which is a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect, 10 being only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.

11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, 12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh: 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must of necessity be the death of him that made it. 17 For a testament is of force where there hath been death: for it doth never avail while he that made it liveth. 18 Wherefore even the first covenant hath not been dedicated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses unto all the people according to the law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded to you-ward. 21 Moreover the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry he sprinkled in like manner with the blood. 22 And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.

23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us: 25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own; 26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment; 28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good posts......I would like to add that He went to the cross spiritually, before He ever went there literally. The natural is a witness. Blessings....

[jabcat]

Agree Card, good point..."from the foundation of the world".   When the Father says it, it's as good as done.   :thumbsup:

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Without trying to sound scandalous, would it be possible for God to do it in the spiritual realm without ever needing to do it in the natural?
It seems to me that what is important is the spiritual event, more than the physical one..
If Jesus is as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then wasn't the work already done before the created universe?

Just curious..

Blessings,
Brian

[firstborn888]

I'll agree there's much spiritual about it.  But I also believe it had to do with Jesus' actual, literal life blood when He shed it. 

Okay, a couple of questions.

1. "For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed". Literal or spiritual? (and why)

Byron, obviously Jesus often spoke of spiritual things - which were often displayed first in a literal event as well.  Eating His flesh and drinking His blood is spiritual/symbolic.  The blood He shed on the cross was literal and very real. 

Yes, and human nature tends to build alters to the symbols and make religions out of them. Hence the RCC's transubstantiation doctrine. AISI many protestants aren't far behind "pleading the blood" and so forth. Not a criticism as much as an observation because if there is a spiritual reality behind the words (faith) then I'm sure it gets the desired result (and hence people's lifelong adherence to the practice - my Grandmother for instance). Yet I think it would be better to get completely beyond the superstitious magic phrase mentality.   

The Father required the sacrifice.

Well, that's what the OT seemed to teach - but it seems they also did not understand what it meant: First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made).

2. "purchased with his own blood". Who was the blood paid to?

 I don't know "WHO" it was "paid to"...but it was paid for us.  IMO, too many scriptures clearly state and indicate as so.  May not be able to totally explain every detail of it, but I must accept the scriptures, not try to explain them away.  God will tell me rest later if He so chooses.

Just my opinion but I would think "who it was paid to" would be more than just a detail? For instance, if you ever get audited by the IRS I guarantee that "who it was paid to" will not be considered a side issue.  :winkgrin:

We are (in theory at least) blessed with ALL spiritual wisdom and understanding, and if we don't seem to have it certainly it is available to us.

Another concept being that it has to do with His sacrificial death, which so many want to explain away.  Many are denying "the very Lord that bought them", and leading themselves and others into apostacy.

2 Peter 2:1  But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

It seems that you are implying that those who teach a deeper understanding of what the cross was all about and don't adhere to traditional substitutionary atonement doctrine fit your profile above? You yourself admit that it's all a great mystery and are not sure who the blood was paid to etc. but then determine that those who understand and teach these things differently are "explaining it away" and then throw in a good bible threat of swift destruction for good measure.  :thumbsup:

It probably would be better to be able to explain something before you determine other's are explaining it away? :dontknow: I would submit to you that those you feel have an incorrect understanding of the blood of Jesus may not be denying the Lord who has "made them His own".

[WhiteWings]

Without trying to sound scandalous, would it be possible for God to do it in the spiritual realm without ever needing to do it in the natural?

I wonder if there are different realms for God.

We speak of "here" and "there".
But because God is omnipresent He always is "here". (or "here" and "there" at the same time
I would be suprised if it's exactly the same with realms.
But from our p.o.v. I would say Father certainly works in this realm to. Almost the whole Bible speaks of this realm. So to me that means work is done in this realm.
Not saying It doesn't speak also about the other realm (at the same time)

If Jesus is as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then wasn't the work already done before the created universe?

From Father's p.o.v. yes because He's timeless/no linear time etc.
From our p.o.v. I would say the plan was made and is unfolding eversince.
(The core of the plan was the slaying of the Lamb)

Tiny off-topic note  :winkgrin:
God doesn't change. So His plan doesn't change either. That kinda debunks the idea that hell was made for Satan but somehow God was forced to use it for mankind too.
That has a great effect on the plan. If things go totally out of control the Lamb was slain for nothing. (everyone is in hell)

[jabcat]

It's obviously not just the OT Byron.  In fact, I didn't even quote the OT, so where are you getting that?  Do you think Paul was confused as well?  I won't argue with you about whether the scriptures are reliable or not.  

You have an opinion on how I need to think and post, and what I should or shouldn't understand.  Not saying you absolutely don't have any legitimate point there, I'm not perfect.  But IMO, I don't think I need to be able to explain every word or aspect of the scriptures to believe they're true and reliable -  allowing them to change me, rather than me change them.  I've tried the latter, and it really doesn't work very well for me.

Overall, IMO, if the shoe doesn't fit, then don't worry about it.  If it does fit, then we'll all be held accountable for what we do with it.

Have a great day, I'll be praying more for you, and if you're led, please do the same for me.  James.

[Cardinal]

Without trying to sound scandalous, would it be possible for God to do it in the spiritual realm without ever needing to do it in the natural?
It seems to me that what is important is the spiritual event, more than the physical one..
If Jesus is as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then wasn't the work already done before the created universe?

Just curious..

Blessings,
Brian

:cloud9: My  :2c: Yes and no. Yes, because He can do anything, but no because the body/natural can only do what it "sees" it's Head do. So the moment He lowered us into the bondage of the natural substance, it had to become a witness by the very nature of the act itself. Hard to put into words here, but do you see what I'm getting at? Blessings....

[firstborn888]

It's obviously not just the OT Byron.  In fact, I didn't even quote the OT, so where are you getting that?  Do you think Paul was confused as well?  I won't argue with you about whether the scriptures are reliable or not, we've been down that road.  

OK, so you have an opinion on how I need to think and post, and what I should or shouldn't understand.  Probably nothing new about that. But overall, in my (literal, actual) opinion, if the shoe doesn't fit, then don't worry about it.  If it does fit, then we'll all be held accountable for what we do with it.

Just suggestions from a man who wants to help others get past surface understandings. Like you said - if it doesn't fit...

Curious, do you see any truth or value in my statements?

I didn't question the veracity of the scriptures in this thread at all. :Sparkletooth: I actually quoted the NT quoting the OT because (in both) it reveals that it was actually the law requiring the sacrifice, not God. Maybe something to think about...

As far as "then don't worry about it'' - since my own life is made a living sacrifice I don't worry a lot about "swift destruction".  :icon_flower: It's more the slow dying thing that I tend to worry about. :winkgrin:

Blessings, in Christ's love,
- Byron

[eaglesway]

 
   The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world because the Father made it so when He laid the foundations of the kosmos. Realize however, that the Father saw the event as the express reality of His very own nature, literally  portrayed in the life of the Son, "who is the radiance of the Fathers glory and exact representation of His nature"(Heb 1:1-3). In times past God spoke in various and sundry ways.....in these last days He has spoke THROUGH HIS SON. The greatest word ever spoken was the ACT of suffering crucifixion willingly by the Son- an eternal word that cannot be gainsayed by anyone. The Father could no more see the crucified Messiah and not actually live the sacrifice of His Son than He could say I AM THAT I AM and mean I AM CONCEPTS ABOUT MYSELF.

    "For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself". This is why we are called to yield our bodies as a living sacrifice, be living stones and living epistles read by all men. The crucifixion was not a little cherry on top of a big cake of knowledge. IT WAS THE CORE EVENT OF ALL TIME AND ETERNITY. It is the incorruptible seed falling into the ground so that it may bring forth more like unto itself. It is the core particle from which the big bang of all spiritual reality sprang forth and became.

There is no place where these things are more clearly explained than in Colossians 1: 13-23

The Fountainhead Of All The Works Of God
   
   "He(the Father) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
   He(the Son) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
   For through Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
   And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence
  For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,  and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
  And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—  if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.



Heb 1:1-4   

God's Supreme Revelation


God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Heb 9:24-26

At The Consummation Of The Ages

For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.


The fact that Christ died "once for all" is sufficient evidence that the literal event fueled all that went before and came after. Time is wrapped around by eternity, and the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus is the core of it ALL.

1Co 2:6-8  Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;  (7)  but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;  (8)  the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

[Beloved Servant]

Some people overlook the fact the God nailed Himself to the cross.

[Beloved Servant]

...it's almost — perhaps is — beyond words.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen guys......good posts....... :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Very beyond words indeed.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

okay I am admit when I am wrong,
Transgression of the Law is sin.

[Beloved Servant]

To everything there is a season,
a time for every purpose under the sun.
A time to be born and a time to die;
a time to plant and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
a time to kill and a time to heal ...
a time to weep and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn and a time to dance ...
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing;
a time to lose and a time to seek;
a time to rend and a time to sew;
a time to keep silent and a time to speak;
a time to love and a time to hate;
a time for war and a time for peace.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

[jabcat]

...it's almost — perhaps is — beyond words.

Amen eaglesway and David...praise God for His majesty.  "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!"

I'm not an advocate of self-chosen ignorance, but IMO, not being able to fully explain a process in absolute detail that is established in the heavens and by a God above all others, doesn't make it any less true.   :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

okay I am admit when I am wrong,
Transgression of the Law is sin.

Where are you with this exactly brother Lee?  What are you experiencing and describing?

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Just that, that if you lean on the law for your righteousness, then you have to follow all 640 laws and follow the old Jewish system of bringing your animal to the priest and he brings it to the High priest and he has to bring the blood to the ark of the cov. and so on and so forth.

Breaking the law of the above is sin''''''

[jabcat]

I'm not sure exactly what you may or may not be responding to, but my personal intent in this thread is to reinforce the idea of Jesus' sacrificial death for the redemption of all mankind as the many scriptures teach - Old and New.  He is worthy of glory and honor.

[Beloved Servant]

...it's almost — perhaps is — beyond words.

Amen eaglesway and David...praise God for His majesty.  "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!"

I'm not an advocate of self-chosen ignorance, but IMO, not being able to fully explain a process in absolute detail that is established in the heavens and by a God above all others, doesn't make it any less true.   :thumbsup:

Yes Jab,
He has showed us in the natural, as in the spiritual, that He does not change. Forever demonstrating the Self-Existent One as I AM that I Am.

[eaglesway]

Amen, Lee. So we lean on Christ for righteousness......

1Jn 1:6-10  If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;  but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin  :egyptdance:. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness :boydance:. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1Jn 2:1-2  My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world :bgdance:.

[Beloved Servant]

Amen, Lee.
YOU are that animal that must live his life as a living sacrifice, and Christ in you, who covers all sin, is your hope of Glory.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think it bears pointing out Lee, that sin entered the world before the 613 came on the scene, so breaking them (alone) is not sin for by ONE MAN, ADAM, sin entered the world, therefore it pre-dates the Jews and the law.

And so excluding anyone from having sin on the basis of "under the law" or "not under the law" just doesn't hold water, for sin was there before the law if the law is  understood to ONLY be the 613.

The true measure of law is that of a BOUNDARY stone, that is established by God, and anyone "moving" any of them to transgress what Father has spoken, brings sin which brings death, ie. we have just placed ourselves UNDER the STONE (as a grave marker) instead of submitting to His perfect expressed will so that the same stone becomes a stepping stone and a cornerstone to what He is building in us.

We must build our houses upon this rock, ie. the revelation of the Father's expressed will just like Peter received it. Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven. Blessings...