The blood. Sometimes it doesn't fit our "sophisticated sensibilities". Some have said "we don't need a bloody gospel". Obviously love is extremely important [I Cor. 13]. However, the importance of the blood that saves and cleanses us may not sit well with our mixing of New Age philosphies and Christianity that preaches "love, love, love" - sometimes seemingly to the exclusion of many other scriptural truths - including the blood of Jesus. Some want to wash it out, stamp it out, or simply explain it away.
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2 Peter 2:1
The Blood: Forgiveness
Hebrews 9:22 "Without the shedding of blood, there is
no remission of sins."
1 John 1:7 "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth
us from all sin."
Revelation 1:5 "... Unto him that loved us, and washed us
from our sins in his own blood."
The Blood: Victory
Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood
of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony ..."
The Blood: Sanctification
Exodus 29:37 "Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for
the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy..."
Hebrews 10:10 "... we are sanctified through the offering of the
body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Hebrews 13:12 "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify
the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate."
The Blood: Assurance and Reconciliation
Colossians 1:20 "And you, that were sometime alienated and
enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled ..."
Hebrews 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who
through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
purge your conscience ..."
Hebrews 10:19, 22 "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter
into the holiest by the blood of Jesus ... Let us draw near with a true
heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an
evil conscience ..." (scripture list courtesy of cafe sozo)
May we never hesitate to embrace, profess, plead and proclaim the glorious, unexplainable, unfathomable, precious blood of Jesus.
:cloud9: AMEN.
I want to share a real life thing that happened to a friend of mine from long ago. My intent is not to shock or scare, but point out that pleading the BLOOD is real. She was attacked by a demon, and she had a sister that told her once years before, "If you ever feel like there is something evil around you, say; I rebuke you Satan in the name of Jesus by the BLOOD of the covenant."
She did this one night when her very life hung in the balance, and whereas she was cold as death prior to this, she said when those words left her lips it LITERALLY felt like someone had dumped a bucket of warm water on her and the demon retreated. Truly, there is power in the BLOOD, and the devils know it even if those in flesh and blood bodies, DON'T. Blessings.....
I'm reminded of several songs Card. "(There Is Wonderworking) Power In The Blood". There was also a song in the last several years called "I Plead The Blood". Important to remember in our own life to plead the blood as part of seeking and drawing near to Him, but especially when the adversary attacks.
A couple more songs come to mind. One, from the 70's by a singer I can't recall his name, "I'll Be a Fool For Jesus". There's a scripture verse that says the preaching of the cross if foolishness to the world but [salvation] to us that believe. So if that's being foolish, I say let's be "fools".
There's also this from Andre Crouch;
The blood that Jesus shed for me,
way back on Calvary;
the blood that gives me strength
from day to day,
it will never lose its power.
Chorus
It reaches to the highest mountain,
it flows to the lowest valley;
the blood that gives me strength
from day to day,
it will never lose its power.
It soothes my doubts and calms my fears,
and it dries all my tears;
the blood that gives me strength
from day to day,
it will never lose its power.
Quote from: jabcat on January 03, 2010, 09:05:26 AM
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2 Peter 2:1
What exactly is the defenition of a false teacher? I think Gary is one too.
Don't get me wrong I think he's a good person and (very) close to the truth in his teachings.
But his teachings aren't at the 100% Jesus-level.
We all write our opinions on this forum. Even if the poster ends his/her message with "that's how I see it" is was still something educating. Teaching. We learn by interacting. We teach by interacting.
So all humanity are teachers. But that can't be the meaning of the verse. So where to draw the line?
It's a good question, and I think it may bear deeper discussion, may be varying levels. However, I can think of 3 contexts;
this particular one in Peter that identifies them as denying the Savior. I've seen this done (IMO) by those claiming the cross wasn't necessary, that Jesus didn't purchase us/pay our dues by His death and blood (that He was really "just" showing us how to endure suffering, showing us how to love, etc.).
Also, when Paul said if someone taught a gospel other than what he taught, then they were to be accursed - I would say that would be considered to be a false teacher (then there's arguments about "what exactly was Paul's gospel"? That's discussed here on TM even).
The other one is when John described a deceiver and/or anti-Christ as one who says Jesus hasn't come in the flesh.
I believe I started a thread once about deceivers that didn't have a lot of action in it. I'll look for it...may be one we want to resurrect?
Are there deceivers today?
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2522.msg25957#msg25957
Quote from: jabcat on January 03, 2010, 10:18:10 PM
The other one is when John described a deceiver and/or anti-Christ as one who says Jesus hasn't come in the flesh.
Then all, non messanic, Jews are false teachers.
I'm sure they mean no harm but it's indeed a very significant error/teaching.
But what if someone claims Paul was no apostle but just someone that did the cooking for the 12. That's a 'medium error'. Then we ofcourse have the zillions denominations that all have diffrences from small to big.
I'm not saying the verse is wrong. I'm just sayin for me personally it's nice to know but useless in daily use because it is often very hard to decide between things.
:cloud9: The Spirit of God is the only 100% foolproof teacher. The comment about men with itching ears heaping to themselves teacher(S), is a perfect description of what has happened.
There was no teacher standing between Adam and God when he walked with Him in the cool (word there runs into meaning of breath) of the day. His Spirit IS this same breath that Adam walked with. This is why we are given the Spirit to bear WITNESS with the Truth, which is that SAME SPIRIT. Truth with God is not an idea or abstract concept, it is a SPIRIT. Blessings....
Sometime I am puzzled in our own society as day in and day out we are inundated with figurative things. I think we have a slang term for almost everything and we often tell stories and make jokes using a figurative nature in doing so.
Yet, something as obvious as The Blood of Jesus seems to escape many people as being a figurative point about a perfect spiritual cleansing agent.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2010, 11:16:39 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 03, 2010, 10:18:10 PM
The other one is when John described a deceiver and/or anti-Christ as one who says Jesus hasn't come in the flesh.
Then all, non messanic, Jews are false teachers.
I'm sure they mean no harm but it's indeed a very significant error/teaching.
But what if someone claims Paul was no apostle but just someone that did the cooking for the 12. That's a 'medium error'. Then we ofcourse have the zillions denominations that all have diffrences from small to big.
I'm not saying the verse is wrong. I'm just sayin for me personally it's nice to know but useless in daily use because it is often very hard to decide between things.
Well, I think it can be hard to know. The Holy Spirit leads into truth, but for me I find it to be a step-by-step process, a little at a time, filled with many times of "missing it"/misunderstanding. That's a whole other discussion, the Holy Spirit leading into all truth, because I don't know or have ever known anyone I felt had all truth. I do feel led into truths, but I also feel I mess it up and miss it a lot too. Must be me and it must be going to take awhile. I just realize that just because it hasn't been completed yet doesn't mean it won't. So the Holy Spirit is doing what the scriptures say will occur, I/we just must be "projects" that take awhile to complete - all in due time, the Potter shaping the clay etc.
Anyway, I came across this today and thought of your questions/points in this thread - Rev. 2:1,2 "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars..." Sounds like more false prophets/deceivers/teachers to me. Not sure exactly who this is talking about, if there are any more specific references as to who this was.
Well at first sight "false prophets/deceivers/teachers" sounds like church leaders.
I think most are part of it. Everyone who gives sermons is a teacher. I think that's safe to assume. But then the grey area starts. Take for example Gary. Let's assume he became fasinated by Hanson's and Knoch long ago.
So they were his teachers. His great website contains all kinds of teaching materials. So Gary is a teacher too. People on this forum that have read the stuff are passing it on on this forum. Teaching. Then some of those who learned things on this forum start teaching on YouTube with their homebrew movies. Others search for ET movies on YouTube and are trying to teach the people watching that video they just watched is false info.
And finally Jabcat switches of his PC and starts explaining/teaching UR to his wife.
And that's how life works. Learning by interaction. My parents are no licenced teachers; but they learned me to talk, walk and ride a bicycle to name a few things.
I'm repeating myself because I wrote about the same thing a few message back :laughing7:
:cloud9: Ah....repetition, the secret of learning.... :grin:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 05, 2010, 08:34:12 AM
:cloud9: Ah....repetition, the secret of learning.... :grin:
:violin: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L/M/N/O/P... :angelharp:
Showing of again Jabcat? :laughing7:
I only know 2 letters.
(http://www.aojewelry.com/products/large/AlphaOmegaPendant.jpg)
Quote from: jabcat on January 03, 2010, 10:21:47 PM
Are there deceivers today?
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2522.msg25957#msg25957
What a fantastic old thread. It is very enlightening indeed! Too bad captamajora has not been active since spring of '08!
Quote from: Cardinal on January 03, 2010, 11:22:10 PM
:cloud9: The Spirit of God is the only 100% foolproof teacher. The comment about men with itching ears heaping to themselves teacher(S), is a perfect description of what has happened.
There was no teacher standing between Adam and God when he walked with Him in the cool (word there runs into meaning of breath) of the day. His Spirit IS this same breath that Adam walked with. This is why we are given the Spirit to bear WITNESS with the Truth, which is that SAME SPIRIT. Truth with God is not an idea or abstract concept, it is a SPIRIT. Blessings....
Amen! And because of the blood of Christ we are able to go directly to the top for everything--all needs, all desires, all truth--it's not an abstract thing--it's real--
From Jab--
Hebrews 10:19, 22
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter
into the holiest by the blood of Jesus ... Let us draw near with a true
heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an
evil conscience ..." (scripture list courtesy of cafe sozo)
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2010, 10:39:56 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 03, 2010, 09:05:26 AM
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2 Peter 2:1
What exactly is the defenition of a false teacher? I think Gary is one too.
Don't get me wrong I think he's a good person and (very) close to the truth in his teachings.
But his teachings aren't at the 100% Jesus-level.
We all write our opinions on this forum. Even if the poster ends his/her message with "that's how I see it" is was still something educating. Teaching. We learn by interacting. We teach by interacting.
So all humanity are teachers. But that can't be the meaning of the verse. So where to draw the line?
Good question, I happen to have a couple of examples in my own experience.
In this case I will not mention a name, but this person believes that she has physically transported her body from one place to the next. Her teachings seem to surround the idea that we are projections from another place, or at least she claims this of herself. She also seems to imply that she has the knowledge that when given to someone else they will be able to achieve this feat.
Now, I have never been against the ideas of possibilities, not having observed this happen is not why I believe she is a false teacher. I believe she is a false teacher because she makes excuses for why she cannot demonstrate what she claims to have power to do.
There is always the convenient excuse, just like faith healers who have all kinds of testamonials, but when someone is not healed then of course the responsibility for healing is placed upon the person who failed to get healed, how convenient.
I think there is a difference between a false prophet and someone being wrong and admitting it and seeing their life humbled and changed through that.
A Minister when I was younger made the prediction and wrote a book about Christs return in the year 2000, this minister was not humbled by his failure, he continues to make end times sermons. He is a false teacher because he is not humbled by being wrong he ignores it and continues on in the same traditions as what caused him to be wrong in the first place.
I suppose this does not make someone completely wrong in everything they say, but why bother wading around in it to find little to nothing anyway.
:cloud9: I know there are counterfeits, and no one should seek to this of their own will IMO, but remember Phillip was caught up of the Spirit and put in another place, so there is a scriptural precedent. Whether in the body or out of it, I know not. Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on January 05, 2010, 10:29:22 PM
:cloud9: I know there are counterfeits, and no one should seek to this of their own will IMO, but remember Phillip was caught up of the Spirit and put in another place, so there is a scriptural precedent. Whether in the body or out of it, I know not. Blessings.....
Yes I agree and why I do not argue against possibilities, I pointed out the assertion of a person and the claim of a personal power. To me that makes the difference.
Quote from: Cardinal on January 05, 2010, 10:29:22 PM
:cloud9: I know there are counterfeits, and no one should seek to this of their own will IMO, but remember Phillip was caught up of the Spirit and put in another place, so there is a scriptural precedent. Whether in the body or out of it, I know not. Blessings.....
I often wonder if that is one way they managed to spread the gospel over the known world. That's a lot of walking, otherwise.
Quote from: Cardinal on January 05, 2010, 10:29:22 PM
:cloud9: I know there are counterfeits, and no one should seek to this of their own will IMO, but remember Phillip was caught up of the Spirit and put in another place, so there is a scriptural precedent. Whether in the body or out of it, I know not. Blessings.....
Also, when Jesus stepped into the boat it was
immediately brought to shore.
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2010, 10:54:27 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 05, 2010, 10:29:22 PM
:cloud9: I know there are counterfeits, and no one should seek to this of their own will IMO, but remember Phillip was caught up of the Spirit and put in another place, so there is a scriptural precedent. Whether in the body or out of it, I know not. Blessings.....
I often wonder if that is one way they managed to spread the gospel over the known world. That's a lot of walking, otherwise.
Philippians 1:12-14 (Amplified Bible)
12 Now I want you to know and continue to rest assured, brethren, that what [has happened] to me [this imprisonment] has actually only served to advance and give a renewed impetus to the [spreading of the] good news (the Gospel).
13 So much is this a fact that
throughout the whole imperial guard and to all the rest [here] my imprisonment has become generally known to be in Christ [that I am a prisoner in His service and for Him].
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 10:50:51 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 05, 2010, 10:29:22 PM
:cloud9: I know there are counterfeits, and no one should seek to this of their own will IMO, but remember Phillip was caught up of the Spirit and put in another place, so there is a scriptural precedent. Whether in the body or out of it, I know not. Blessings.....
Yes I agree and why I do not argue against possibilities, I pointed out the assertion of a person and the claim of a personal power. To me that makes the difference.
:cloud9: EXACTLY......if they're claiming it's a PERSONAL power, it's a counterfeit. The Spirit can catch you up in the Spirit and it's independent of your will, your foreknowledge, and at first, even your understanding. Blessings.....
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 05, 2010, 11:23:38 AM
Showing of again Jabcat? :laughing7:
I only know 2 letters.
(http://www.aojewelry.com/products/large/AlphaOmegaPendant.jpg)
Those are the best 2 letters anyway...if you know Those, then :thumbsup:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 12:56:46 AM
Sometime I am puzzled in our own society as day in and day out we are inundated with figurative things. I think we have a slang term for almost everything and we often tell stories and make jokes using a figurative nature in doing so.
Yet, something as obvious as The Blood of Jesus seems to escape many people as being a figurative point about a perfect spiritual cleansing agent.
Yep - death has a WONDERFUL way of wiping the slate clean :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
The Life is in the Blood...These words I speak to you are life.
they are eternal life due to being the 'thoughts and mind' of
God. Perfect in understanding..able to bring into alignment
mankinds thoughts and heart with the Father. Elevating
mankinds mind from below..bringing into perfect understanding
of the will and mind of the Father.
The putting to death of that word by the ignorance of man
profits the Kingdom of darkness nothing..for it is resurrected
up into the heavens eternally true and faithful.
There will be no stopping or thwarting it. It will accomplish
that which the Lord sent it forth for. It will prove faithful and
true,eternally. It has the power to deliver from bondage,error
and the death that is in the tongue.
Hi Molly!
QuoteI often wonder if that is one way they managed to spread the gospel over the known world. That's a lot of walking, otherwise.
Good observation.. any idea exactly how far away it was?
It also now seems to me that the speaking in tongues that was in the 2nd chapter was not like we see in churches today-- back then, everyone heard in their own language. Again, better than science fiction!!!
Hi Firstborn888!
QuoteYep - death has a WONDERFUL way of wiping the slate clean
The Scripture also says that "he who is dead is FREE from SIN." To me, that seems to mean that ALL sin is gone when we leave this earthly realm!! Hallelujah!!
Or am I understanding that verse wrong? Could it be that God makes everyone "pure" at death?
Blessings to all,
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 07, 2010, 10:26:28 PM
Hi Firstborn888!
QuoteYep - death has a WONDERFUL way of wiping the slate clean
The Scripture also says that "he who is dead is FREE from SIN." To me, that seems to mean that ALL sin is gone when we leave this earthly realm!! Hallelujah!!
Or am I understanding that verse wrong? Could it be that God makes everyone "pure" at death?
Blessings to all,
Brian
That's the one I had in mind. By faith we reckon ourselves dead to sin now - and alive to God.
I personally see it as , when Christ rose from the dead,
1 He killed death
2 He bought back ALL THINGS back from death and brought immortality to all
3 In doing so, locked up the ellegedged devil for that 1000 years of God's time.
4 In so doing, acomplished all He said he would, oops- sorry rapture people.
5 Much Much more. but will stop here
Jesus said quite simply that the Holy Spirit would lead us and guide us into all truth. It is our distance from God, and our carnal reasonings that obscure the word. The revelation of the blood, as the outpoured LIFE of Christ, being the active agent in the reconciliation of all things, is so deep and real and intrinsic to the gospel, it IS the revelation of God. He created all things, and allowed the fall, in order to reveal HIMSELF completely to us in the deepest beauty of His love- an unmerited sacrifice. Abel saw it, and died for the testimony of it. Abraham saw it, and became the friend of God as he offered up Isaac in faith. Our faith allows us to participate in the friendship of that sacrifice as we embrace the divine nature. By grace we abide in the vine. Having been forgiven much(the more we grow in grace the more we realize how much we are forgiven)- we love much. The love spreads virally as we lay down our lives because we love Him, we love one another, and we love the kosmos. Because we have been born, not of the will of the flesh, or the will of man, but by the pure and undefiled Logos(seed) of God, we have the same blood/life in us. We receive the will to sacrifice(sharing His life, bearing the cross) He had, and He is therefore not,"ashamed to call us brethren"(breathren :smile:). In other words, His blood is the love, and it was poured out once and for all, and all are being brought into it, but all are not yet brought into it, so we labor. If He labored, so ought we, in the same Spirit of faith. Otherwise, we might as well just reject the scriptures as useless symbols open to anyones interpretation and join the New Age.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 11, 2010, 07:37:02 AM
Jesus said quite simply that the Holy Spirit would lead us and guide us into all truth. It is our distance from God, and our carnal reasonings that obscure the word. The revelation of the blood, as the outpoured LIFE of Christ, being the active agent in the reconciliation of all things, is so deep and real and intrinsic to the gospel, it IS the revelation of God. He created all things, and allowed the fall, in order to reveal HIMSELF completely to us in the deepest beauty of His love- an unmerited sacrifice. Abel saw it, and died for the testimony of it. Abraham saw it, and became the friend of God as he offered up Isaac in faith. Our faith allows us to participate in the friendship of that sacrifice as we embrace the divine nature. By grace we abide in the vine. Having been forgiven much(the more we grow in grace the more we realize how much we are forgiven)- we love much. The love spreads virally as we lay down our lives because we love Him, we love one another, and we love the kosmos. Because we have been born, not of the will of the flesh, or the will of man, but by the pure and undefiled Logos(seed) of God, we have the same blood/life in us. We receive the will to sacrifice(sharing His life, bearing the cross) He had, and He is therefore not,"ashamed to call us brethren"(breathren :smile:). In other words, His blood is the love, and it was poured out once and for all, and all are being brought into it, but all are not yet brought into it, so we labor. If He labored, so ought we, in the same Spirit of faith. Otherwise, we might as well just reject the scriptures as useless symbols open to anyones interpretation and join the New Age.
:goodpost: :first:
BEAUTIFUL!!
Brought to Christ
It should be clear to every thinking child of God that God does not use the same means and measures with every man to bring them to Christ. It would be very simple to fill this book with instance after instance from Holy Scripture which loudly and unmistakably proclaim the nature and purposes of all God's judgments from the banishment of Adam and Eve from Eden's fair garden in Geneses to the blazing inferno of the lake of fire in Revelation. But I would point you briefly to one plain and positive illustration which proceeded from the lips of our Lord Jesus Christ. "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, to be drunken; the lord of that servant will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be BEATEN WITH MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be BEATEN WITH FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more" (Lk.12:45-48).
In this parable it is plain that Christ is teaching degrees of punishment. The Christ teaches that those who have committed things worthy of many stripes, will receive many, and those who were ignorant, and with lesser light did not know or understand the will of God, yet did things worthy of stripes, shall receive but few. Here is set forth in the plainest of language not only varying degrees of punishment, but also varying lengths of time for the punishment. What ever the judgment typified by the 'stripes,' it takes longer to inflict many stripes than just a few, so it should not be difficult to understand that some men are punished for a longer period of time than others. The Word of God declares that the Judge of all the earth shall do right, and I believe that He shall do just that. As our children were growing up we did not have one stock punishment for all their misdeeds. We suited the punishment to the disobedience, yet we haven't granted the same privilege to God! We have said that everyone is to receive the very same common punishment, hell fire, and that that judgment would endure for the very same length of time for all---eternity ! How, then, I ask, can some be beaten with "many stripes" and others with "few stripes" if all receive the same punishment of endless hell fire ?
How foolish can we be ! It is always extremely foolish to hold to a doctrine that clearly contradicts the Word of God.
I can almost feel the holy wrath, I can almost hear the stinging invective of some who think they have me now--- "Ah," they say, "but Jesus is not talking in this parable about the condition of the LOST; He is teaching about the punishment of disobedient SERVANTS OF GOD!" And you are so very right, my friend! We never want to forget it. Nothing could be plainer, for Jesus prefaces His remarks with these significant words: "Who then is that FAITHFUL AND WISE STEWARD, who his lord shall make ruler over all that He hath" (Lk. 12:42-44 ).
There would be no answer to your argument; I would be forced to throw up my hands and admit that these words of our Lord apply only to the correction and discipline of servants of the Lord, and have absolutely no bearing whatever on the judgment of unbelievers, or on hell, or on the lake of fire, were it not for one significant statement that appears in verse fort-six. The Lord says, "The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for Him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S." Do you see that? Ah, the punishment of this SERVANT is appointed his portion WITH THE UNBELIEVERS! The punishment, therefore, of this servant of the Lord and the punishment of the unbelievers is equal, identical, of the same intencity, for same length of time, the very same punishment, and that punishment is? MANY STRIPES! Not unending stripes; not everlasting whipping; not eternal torment under the hands of the tormentors; but—many stripes. And of what precise judgment speaks our Lord when He commands "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers? What is the "portion of the unbelievers?" Hear it! "But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING... shall have their part(portion) IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNETH WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE" (Rev. 21:8 ). The "portion of the unbelievers" is the lake of fire. And not only are the unbelievers judged there, but the unfaithful servants of God are dealt with there, too! And, by Jesus' own words this punishment is called "many stripes," and is shown to be limited in its duration and corrective and REMEDIAL IN ITS NATURE.
Just what do you mean ... The Lake of Fire By J. Preston Eby. Part 7 pg.s9-11 typed by Lee Damboise II
:cloud9: Amen Eaglesway! :2thumbs: :goodone:
Psa 51:3-4 For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me. Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge.
This is all God asks. It is all He seeks. It is the end of all chastisement. It applies the blood. It is the entrance into brokeness, "a broken and a contrite heart Oh God you will in no way cast out". He dwells in the high and holy place and with the one who is of a broken and a contrite heart.
Confess your faults one to another and pray for each other that you may be healed.
This is the key that unlocks the prison door, it pays "the last penny". This humility and honesty is the core of fellowship because it is "true being" and "being true". The arrogant are not so. So they have no oneness.
1Jn 1:6-9 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship(koinonea, oneness) with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This statement is so powerful. We all sin. Even after faith, and even as we grow in grace. As James says, "For we all stumble in many ways". Yet, their is a healing balm that we access continually as we walk through humble fellowship. The blood. It carries life through the body, and healing to every cell through "connectedness", which is the union of the pure in heart. The pure in heart are not the "perfect" who never sin, they are the "poor in spirit" who are humble and seek grace- and minister grace as well.
Psa 32:2-5 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.
When I kept silent about my sin! Hiding in the garden from the presence. "Am I my brother's keeper?" Your hand was heavy upon me. These are the few and many stripes- however many it takes to bring us to honesty.
"You will teach me truth in my innermost being."
We will all be true beings, able to say "I am what I am" when God is over all in all and through all. When all the adversaries are destroyed, all will rejoice in the "connectedness" of the life of God flowing through all.
"I heard the voice of the Almighty like the rushing of many waters like the sound of ten thousands of ten thousands of voices praising God."
Psa 51:6-13 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom. Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness, Let the bones which You have broken rejoice. Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit. Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You.
Hyssop is a bitter herb signifying repentance. Esau could not find repentance though he sought it with "bitter tears". This means Esau suffered irrevocable loss. "If any man's work is burned up he shall suffer loss, but he himself will be saved....(1 Cor 3:15-17)". The children of Israel applied the blood of the Passover Lamb to the doorpost with hyssop, and the death angel passed over. When we repent we simply "change our mind" and "humble ourselves to agree with God" that we are "all connected". Sin now becomes an issue, not of breaking arbitrary rules and laws, but rather it is about separation and ignoring the connection of all and failing to treat others as we would be treated. Darkness is failing to recognize the union and walking in chaos(total separation, no union, no harmony). Without form and void.....LET THERE BE LIGHT!!! In the light, it is not me first(chaos), it is sowing the seeds of reconciliation in a free will union(harmony) in the outpouring of Christ- to whatever measure such grace has grown in us.
Psa 51:16-19 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. By Your favor do good to Zion; Build the walls of Jerusalem. Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices, In burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.(see Romans 12:1-3) This is the key to acceptable offerings(gold, silver, precious stone).
Religion seeks to buy God off with the works of our hands and ascend via the tree of knowledge, all the while maintaining this dishonest separation of self-centered living(death). As such we are our own worst enemy...."the servant of God must not strive....gently instruct....pray for those who oppose themselves that they may escape the snare..."
Like Cain we murder the humble and resent the rejection of our offerings and judge others as inferior to us in knowledge and righteousness. "Why do you go on judging(condemning) before the time". Discernment is the recognition of another's condition through "the insight of love" and the wisdom of God. Condemnation is a different kind of judging and we are not permitted to do it. It is only for God to make the absolute determination.
If you find a brother in a fault, you that are spiritual(humble, mature in the ministry of reconciliation) go to him, considering your own selves(keeping an eye on your flesh and remembering your own weakness and need of grace) and restore such a one in the spirit of meekness(as one who is meek and lowly of heart, like the Lamb of God, our Redeemer, our fountain of living water).
If you see a brother or a sister committing a sin not unto death, pray for them and God will give them life for their sin. WOW!
This is gold silver and precious stone. Love one another, forgive one another, bear one anothers burdens, confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed.
The healing won't come through what we know(tree of knowledge), it will come through the connection that allows blood to flow from cell to cell, member to member, and eventually to all till God be all in all. So feed the hungry- you are connected. Weep with those who weep- you are connected. Do not put your own needs first, but esteem others before yourself, because His blood is in you- as long as you abide in the vine :HeartThrob:.
The fire will keep us honest, or it will get us honest by falling upon us if we fail to "Buy of (Him) gold tried in the fire." Eventually we will all be able to walk in the midst of the everlasting burnings, rejoicing as gold does, when it is 7 times purified.
Jas 3:14-18 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition(fission, energy from splitting atoms, destruction, death) exist, there is disorder(chaos) and every evil thing(everything that thrives on separation). But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace(fusion, energy from atoms becoming one).
eaglesway, I completely disagree with your post, because if the words that come out of your mouth(type), bring the hears Life, then your a messenger of God-Life, and if your words that come out of 'YOUR' mouth bring the hears death (make them sinners) then your a messenger or angle of death.Period... end of story.
so, speak life...
raise the dead...
stop the process of sin, "IF YOU know how... I do, hope you learn how!
Lee Damboise II
QuotePsa 51:3-4 For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me. Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge.
This is all God asks. It is all He seeks. It is the end of all chastisement. It applies the blood. It is the entrance into brokeness, "a broken and a contrite heart Oh God you will in no way cast out". He dwells in the high and holy place and with the one who is of a broken and a contrite heart.
This is where I have my little bone to pick with fundies.. For them, God does in fact forgive...until you die. Then it's over. No more "being Mr. Nice."
And the resentment of God kicks in....
They don't believe that God can convert the soul. They say that it's all up to man himself, otherwise it's "not really love, because it would be 'forced'."
QuoteIf you see a brother or a sister committing a sin not unto death, pray for them and God will give them life for their sin. WOW!
Anyone here know which sins are "unto death" and which aren't? I can't seem to find that info in my KJV..
Love to all here,
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 13, 2010, 03:01:39 PM
This is where I have my little bone to pick with fundies.. For them, God does in fact forgive...until you die. Then it's over. No more "being Mr. Nice."
And the resentment of God kicks in....
And when does God forgive? If you ask. That's a very tricky situation. I think very many people sin on daily basis. Say they all ask for forgiveness at 11pm.
Unfortunately they die at 6pm....
If judgement is really as black/white as ETs say it is then many will have a hot suprise waiting.
I was thinking about forgiveness recently.
If God forgives "only if you do such-and-such," then He tecnically hasn't yet forgiven you. This is quite different from the "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them" message we read.
If God forgives not based on any external behavior on our part, however, this would be because perhaps it is His nature or character to forgive.
These two are very different. One could be used as leverage to get something from the one in need of forgiveness. And it's a very "unstable," conditional forgiveness.
The other is what we could call "forgiveness-natured." It's something ingrained and unmovable.
Any thoughts?.....
Blessings to all,
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 13, 2010, 09:40:10 PM
I was thinking about forgiveness recently.
If God forgives "only if you do such-and-such," then He tecnically hasn't yet forgiven you.
I would say that is true as far as I can tell.
Quote
This is quite different from the "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them" message we read.
For sure.
Quote
If God forgives not based on any external behavior on our part, however, this would be because perhaps it is His nature or character to forgive.
I believe the idea that you must do something for God to forgive you is a confusion of the difference between forgivness and suffering consequenses.
I saw this a lot in churches, people would do something wrong and worry that God would not forgive them. The real problem? The real problem is that they screwed up and asked God to forgive them and they were not immediatly released from the consequenses of their actions. They weren't getting out of the mess they were in like they wanted to or as fast as they liked.
This actually is a side effect of how prayer is taught in most churches when they define prayer by a verse or two that sounds REALLY GREAT.
I mean ANYTHING you ask will be given unto you, and then when I pray and what I wanted was not given unto me I ask why, oh, well, you have sin in your life, you didn;t believe enough, etc etc, all a cop out for not having taught prayer correctly in the first place.
Well, Lee, disagreement is not always a bad thing. Misunderstanding may not even be a bad thing- when it leads to discussion and ends in edification. I am not sure how you can completely disagree with my whole post, since most of it comes right out of the scriptures- I will assume some specific part of it really set you off. However, I hope you won't strain at the gnat and swallow the camel. I believe I was illustrating the efficacy of the blood of Jesus, for believers first, and ultimately for all, through the application of repentance and faith towards God, which is the process of learning to have a broken and a contrite heart. Fairly basic stuff from my view. Peace, John
"For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father."
"When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."
"For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, (20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."
Brian,
I am not sure exactly what all the "sins unto death" are, but I am thinking they involve the sins assigned the death penalty in the old testament. I believe God has forgiven all sin, but repentance enables the application, and eventually all will experience a broken and a contrite heart, and the reconciliation afforded through the blood of the Lamb..
Thomas / Ephesians 2:13
From: tkissinger01@cox.net
Sent: Sat 1/23/10 8:30 AM
Ephesians 2:13 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. How wonderful it is to know and be assured of our salvation in Jesus Christ. While we were once far off (in our minds) from a relationship and the knowledge of God, we are now brought near by the blood of Christ. It is important to meditate on this, because it constantly reminds us of how we were lost and how that God found us (so to speak) through His Son Jesus Christ.
Please note, however, that it is by "the blood of Christ" that we are brought into relationship with God. It is not just that we believe in Jesus, but it is vital that we believe in Him as "our sacrifice for sin". Remember...It is not that He sinned, for He did not, but He became a sin offering for us through the blood of His cross. This is what separates those who believe in Jesus just as a good man Who came to teach us how to live, and those who understand that HE IS THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD!
Yes...He did come to show us how to live, but His primary mission was to bear witness to the truth through His de
ath, burial, and resurrection for the sin and salvation of the world. Thank God for the blood of His cross. It will result in the reconciliation of all things! Hallelujah!
Sincerely,Thomas Kissinger
www.hearingthetruthofgod.com The Berean Group (A Discussion Group On Yahoo) www.groups.yahoo.com/group/thebereangroup Thomas Kissinger - The Sound Of Inspiration (A Website Dedicated To The Music And Recordings Of Thomas Kissinger)
I think it's important to realize it's not about magic red stuff - as appealing as it may seem.
Understand the CONCEPT - and that is the spiritually reality.
One thing that is amplified by the "once for all" sacrifice of the Lamb of God is the connectedness of all mankind throughout all time and creation.
Rom 5:8-13 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
The typology referred to here is the root of mankinds universal union. A universal union in death through the fatherhood of Adam, a universal union in life through the fatherhood of Christ- born not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh, but born of God having the incorruptible seed which is the delivery system of the blood/life/DNA of the kingdom of God in Christ, the root. The physical shedding of the blood of Jesus was the release mechanism for His life to enter all men, because the life is in the blood, and we are all connected(for in Him we live and move and breath and have our being), and it was applied once and for all upon the altar in the heavenly holy of holies (the heart of God). All will be brought into the new root (behold I make all things new), each in their order, until God is all in all. The actual sacrifice of Christ's blood is the effective agent of the spiritual reality it unlocked.
1Co 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
Amen eaglesway.
Quote from: firstborn888 on January 24, 2010, 08:56:44 AM
I think it's important to realize it's not about magic red stuff - as appealing as it may seem.
Understand the CONCEPT - and that is the spiritually reality.
I'll agree there's much spiritual about it. But I also believe it had to do with Jesus' actual, literal life blood when He shed it. Another concept being that it has to do with His sacrificial death, which so many want to explain away. Many are denying "the very Lord that bought them", and leading themselves and others into apostacy.
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the
Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
QuoteRom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
The typology referred to here is the root of mankinds universal union. A universal union in death through the fatherhood of Adam, a universal union in life through the fatherhood of Christ- born not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh, but born of God having the incorruptible seed which is the delivery system of the blood/life/DNA of the kingdom of God in Christ, the root. The physical shedding of the blood of Jesus was the release mechanism for His life to enter all men, because the life is in the blood, and we are all connected(for in Him we live and move and breath and have our being), and it was applied once and for all upon the altar in the heavenly holy of holies (the heart of God). All will be brought into the new root (behold I make all things new), each in their order, until God is all in all. The actual sacrifice of Christ's blood is the effective agent of the spiritual reality it unlocked.
Nice elaboration there, Eaglesway!! :boyheart:
Blessings to all,
Brian
Quote from: jabcat on January 24, 2010, 10:19:35 PM
I'll agree there's much spiritual about it. But I also believe it had to do with Jesus' actual, literal life blood when He shed it.
Okay, a couple of questions.
1. "For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed". Literal or spiritual? (and why)
2. "purchased with his own blood". Who was the blood paid to?
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 25, 2010, 11:29:21 AM
QuoteRom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
The typology referred to here is the root of mankinds universal union. A universal union in death through the fatherhood of Adam, a universal union in life through the fatherhood of Christ- born not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh, but born of God having the incorruptible seed which is the delivery system of the blood/life/DNA of the kingdom of God in Christ, the root. The physical shedding of the blood of Jesus was the release mechanism for His life to enter all men, because the life is in the blood, and we are all connected(for in Him we live and move and breath and have our being), and it was applied once and for all upon the altar in the heavenly holy of holies (the heart of God). All will be brought into the new root (behold I make all things new), each in their order, until God is all in all. The actual sacrifice of Christ's blood is the effective agent of the spiritual reality it unlocked.
Nice elaboration there, Eaglesway!! :boyheart:
Blessings to all,
Brian
Thank you brian, this is why
I believe that all humans have the seed of God( now in them), even Hitler
I believe that if all things are right, you will feel His drawing in this life, and if not in another age or place or i.e. after this planet earth form. (somewhere)
& If Christ be in you, You don't sin. you do do things that are in your hearts wrong like , lie, cheet, steel , rob, etc.. but there are not sins of law. they are against the nature of God and the blood that was shed for all will hid those things that we and our fellow man find offense or wrong from out Father.
Lee Damboise II
Hi Lee,
Quotethere are not sins of law.
Can you elaborate a bit?
Blessings,
Brian
The literal event unlocked the spiritual reality. The Holy Spirit distributes the benefits of the literal event through faith in both the literal efficacy of that event and the spiritual reality that resulted from it.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 25, 2010, 08:06:57 PM
The literal event unlocked the spiritual reality. The Holy Spirit distributes the benefits of the literal event through faith in both the literal efficacy of that event and the spiritual reality that resulted from it.
Amen. I believe that's exactly right.
Byron, obviously Jesus often spoke of spiritual things - which were often displayed first in a literal event as well. Eating His flesh and drinking His blood is spiritual/symbolic. The blood He shed on the cross was literal and very real. The Father required the sacrifice. I don't know "WHO" it was "paid to"...but it was paid for us. IMO, too many scriptures clearly state and indicate as so. May not be able to totally explain every detail of it, but I must accept the scriptures, not try to explain them away. God will tell me rest later if He so chooses.
Hebrews 9
American Standard Version
---------------------
.... priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing; 9 which is a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect, 10 being only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.
11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, 12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh: 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must of necessity be the death of him that made it. 17 For a testament is of force where there hath been death: for it doth never avail while he that made it liveth. 18 Wherefore even the first covenant hath not been dedicated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses unto all the people according to the law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded to you-ward. 21 Moreover the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry he sprinkled in like manner with the blood. 22 And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us: 25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own; 26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment; 28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.
:cloud9: Good posts......I would like to add that He went to the cross spiritually, before He ever went there literally. The natural is a witness. Blessings....
Agree Card, good point..."from the foundation of the world". When the Father says it, it's as good as done. :thumbsup:
Without trying to sound scandalous, would it be possible for God to do it in the spiritual realm without ever needing to do it in the natural?
It seems to me that what is important is the spiritual event, more than the physical one..
If Jesus is as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then wasn't the work already done before the created universe?
Just curious..
Blessings,
Brian
Quote from: jabcat on January 24, 2010, 10:19:35 PM
I'll agree there's much spiritual about it. But I also believe it had to do with Jesus' actual, literal life blood when He shed it.
Quote from: firstborn888 on January 25, 2010, 11:44:05 AM
Okay, a couple of questions.
1. "For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed". Literal or spiritual? (and why)
Quote from: jabcat on January 25, 2010, 08:40:30 PM
Byron, obviously Jesus often spoke of spiritual things - which were often displayed first in a literal event as well. Eating His flesh and drinking His blood is spiritual/symbolic. The blood He shed on the cross was literal and very real.
Yes, and human nature tends to build alters to the symbols and make religions out of them. Hence the RCC's transubstantiation doctrine. AISI many protestants aren't far behind "pleading the blood" and so forth. Not a criticism as much as an observation because if there is a spiritual reality behind the words (faith) then I'm sure it gets the desired result (and hence people's lifelong adherence to the practice - my Grandmother for instance). Yet I think it would be
better to get completely beyond the superstitious magic phrase mentality.
Quote from: jabcat on January 25, 2010, 08:40:30 PM
The Father required the sacrifice.
Well, that's what the OT
seemed to teach - but it seems they also did not understand what it meant: First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although
the law required them to be made).
Quote from: firstborn888 on January 25, 2010, 11:44:05 AM
2. "purchased with his own blood". Who was the blood paid to?
Quote from: jabcat on January 25, 2010, 08:40:30 PM
I don't know "WHO" it was "paid to"...but it was paid for us. IMO, too many scriptures clearly state and indicate as so. May not be able to totally explain every detail of it, but I must accept the scriptures, not try to explain them away. God will tell me rest later if He so chooses.
Just my opinion but I would think "who it was paid to" would be more than just a detail? For instance, if you ever get audited by the IRS I guarantee that "who it was paid to" will not be considered a side issue. :winkgrin:
We are (in theory at least) blessed with ALL spiritual wisdom and understanding, and if we don't seem to have it certainly it is available to us.
Quote from: jabcat on January 24, 2010, 10:19:35 PM
Another concept being that it has to do with His sacrificial death, which so many want to explain away. Many are denying "the very Lord that bought them", and leading themselves and others into apostacy.
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
It seems that you are implying that those who teach a deeper understanding of what the cross was all about and
don't adhere to traditional substitutionary atonement doctrine fit your profile above? You yourself admit that it's all a great mystery and are not sure who the blood was paid to etc. but then determine that those who understand and teach these things differently are "explaining it away" and then throw in a good bible threat of swift destruction for good measure. :thumbsup:
It probably would be better to be able to explain something before you determine other's are explaining it away? :dontknow: I would submit to you that those you feel have an incorrect understanding of the blood of Jesus may not be denying the Lord who has "made them His own".
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 25, 2010, 10:48:09 PM
Without trying to sound scandalous, would it be possible for God to do it in the spiritual realm without ever needing to do it in the natural?
I wonder if there are different realms for God.
We speak of "here" and "there".
But because God is omnipresent He always is "here". (or "here" and "there" at the same time
I would be suprised if it's exactly the same with realms.
But from our p.o.v. I would say Father certainly works in this realm to. Almost the whole Bible speaks of this realm. So to me that means work is done in this realm.
Not saying It doesn't speak also about the other realm (at the same time)
QuoteIf Jesus is as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then wasn't the work already done before the created universe?
From Father's p.o.v. yes because He's timeless/no linear time etc.
From our p.o.v. I would say the plan was made and is unfolding eversince.
(The core of the plan was the slaying of the Lamb)
Tiny off-topic note :winkgrin:
God doesn't change. So His plan doesn't change either. That kinda debunks the idea that hell was made for Satan but somehow God was forced to use it for mankind too.
That has a great effect on the plan. If things go totally out of control the Lamb was slain for nothing. (everyone is in hell)
It's obviously not just the OT Byron. In fact, I didn't even quote the OT, so where are you getting that? Do you think Paul was confused as well? I won't argue with you about whether the scriptures are reliable or not.
You have an opinion on how I need to think and post, and what I should or shouldn't understand. Not saying you absolutely don't have any legitimate point there, I'm not perfect. But IMO, I don't think I need to be able to explain every word or aspect of the scriptures to believe they're true and reliable - allowing them to change me, rather than me change them. I've tried the latter, and it really doesn't work very well for me.
Overall, IMO, if the shoe doesn't fit, then don't worry about it. If it does fit, then we'll all be held accountable for what we do with it.
Have a great day, I'll be praying more for you, and if you're led, please do the same for me. James.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 25, 2010, 10:48:09 PM
Without trying to sound scandalous, would it be possible for God to do it in the spiritual realm without ever needing to do it in the natural?
It seems to me that what is important is the spiritual event, more than the physical one..
If Jesus is as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then wasn't the work already done before the created universe?
Just curious..
Blessings,
Brian
:cloud9: My :2c: Yes and no. Yes, because He can do anything, but no because the body/natural can only do what it "sees" it's Head do. So the moment He lowered us into the bondage of the natural substance, it had to become a witness by the very nature of the act itself. Hard to put into words here, but do you see what I'm getting at? Blessings....
Quote from: jabcat on January 26, 2010, 12:11:23 AM
It's obviously not just the OT Byron. In fact, I didn't even quote the OT, so where are you getting that? Do you think Paul was confused as well? I won't argue with you about whether the scriptures are reliable or not, we've been down that road.
OK, so you have an opinion on how I need to think and post, and what I should or shouldn't understand. Probably nothing new about that. But overall, in my (literal, actual) opinion, if the shoe doesn't fit, then don't worry about it. If it does fit, then we'll all be held accountable for what we do with it.
Just suggestions from a man who wants to help others get past surface understandings. Like you said - if it doesn't fit...
Curious, do you see any truth or value in my statements?
I didn't question the veracity of the scriptures in this thread at all. :Sparkletooth: I actually quoted the NT quoting the OT because (in both) it reveals that it was actually the law requiring the sacrifice, not God. Maybe something to think about...
As far as "then don't worry about it'' - since my own life is made a living sacrifice I don't worry a lot about "swift destruction". :icon_flower: It's more the slow dying thing that I tend to worry about. :winkgrin:
Blessings, in Christ's love,
- Byron
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world because the Father made it so when He laid the foundations of the kosmos. Realize however, that the Father saw the event as the express reality of His very own nature, literally portrayed in the life of the Son, "who is the radiance of the Fathers glory and exact representation of His nature"(Heb 1:1-3). In times past God spoke in various and sundry ways.....in these last days He has spoke THROUGH HIS SON. The greatest word ever spoken was the ACT of suffering crucifixion willingly by the Son- an eternal word that cannot be gainsayed by anyone. The Father could no more see the crucified Messiah and not actually live the sacrifice of His Son than He could say I AM THAT I AM and mean I AM CONCEPTS ABOUT MYSELF.
"For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself". This is why we are called to yield our bodies as a living sacrifice, be living stones and living epistles read by all men. The crucifixion was not a little cherry on top of a big cake of knowledge. IT WAS THE CORE EVENT OF ALL TIME AND ETERNITY. It is the incorruptible seed falling into the ground so that it may bring forth more like unto itself. It is the core particle from which the big bang of all spiritual reality sprang forth and became.
There is no place where these things are more clearly explained than in Colossians 1: 13-23
The Fountainhead Of All The Works Of God
"He(the Father) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
He(the Son) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For through Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence
For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Heb 1:1-4
God's Supreme Revelation
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 9:24-26
At The Consummation Of The Ages
For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
The fact that Christ died "once for all" is sufficient evidence that the literal event fueled all that went before and came after. Time is wrapped around by eternity, and the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus is the core of it ALL.
1Co 2:6-8 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; (7) but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; (8) the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
Some people overlook the fact the God nailed Himself to the cross.
...it's almost — perhaps is — beyond words.
:cloud9: Amen guys......good posts....... :thumbsup:
Very beyond words indeed.
okay I am admit when I am wrong,
Transgression of the Law is sin.
To everything there is a season,
a time for every purpose under the sun.
A time to be born and a time to die;
a time to plant and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
a time to kill and a time to heal ...
a time to weep and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn and a time to dance ...
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing;
a time to lose and a time to seek;
a time to rend and a time to sew;
a time to keep silent and a time to speak;
a time to love and a time to hate;
a time for war and a time for peace.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 26, 2010, 01:30:15 AM
...it's almost — perhaps is — beyond words.
Amen eaglesway and David...praise God for His majesty. "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!"
I'm not an advocate of self-chosen ignorance, but IMO, not being able to fully explain a process in absolute detail that is established in the heavens and by a God above all others, doesn't make it any less true. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 26, 2010, 02:11:47 AM
okay I am admit when I am wrong,
Transgression of the Law is sin.
Where are you with this exactly brother Lee? What are you experiencing and describing?
Just that, that if you lean on the law for your righteousness, then you have to follow all 640 laws and follow the old Jewish system of bringing your animal to the priest and he brings it to the High priest and he has to bring the blood to the ark of the cov. and so on and so forth.
Breaking the law of the above is sin''''''
I'm not sure exactly what you may or may not be responding to, but my personal intent in this thread is to reinforce the idea of Jesus' sacrificial death for the redemption of all mankind as the many scriptures teach - Old and New. He is worthy of glory and honor.
Quote from: jabcat on January 26, 2010, 02:17:03 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 26, 2010, 01:30:15 AM
...it's almost — perhaps is — beyond words.
Amen eaglesway and David...praise God for His majesty. "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!"
I'm not an advocate of self-chosen ignorance, but IMO, not being able to fully explain a process in absolute detail that is established in the heavens and by a God above all others, doesn't make it any less true. :thumbsup:
Yes Jab,
He has showed us in the natural, as in the spiritual, that He does not change. Forever demonstrating the Self-Existent One as I AM that I Am.
Amen, Lee. So we lean on Christ for righteousness......
1Jn 1:6-10 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin :egyptdance:. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness :boydance:. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1-2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world :bgdance:.
Amen, Lee.
YOU are that animal that must live his life as a living sacrifice, and Christ in you, who covers all sin, is your hope of Glory.
:cloud9: I think it bears pointing out Lee, that sin entered the world before the 613 came on the scene, so breaking them (alone) is not sin for by ONE MAN, ADAM, sin entered the world, therefore it pre-dates the Jews and the law.
And so excluding anyone from having sin on the basis of "under the law" or "not under the law" just doesn't hold water, for sin was there before the law if the law is understood to ONLY be the 613.
The true measure of law is that of a BOUNDARY stone, that is established by God, and anyone "moving" any of them to transgress what Father has spoken, brings sin which brings death, ie. we have just placed ourselves UNDER the STONE (as a grave marker) instead of submitting to His perfect expressed will so that the same stone becomes a stepping stone and a cornerstone to what He is building in us.
We must build our houses upon this rock, ie. the revelation of the Father's expressed will just like Peter received it. Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven. Blessings...
In keeping with Jabcat's original post in this thread..... I Thank God for the blood of Jesus Christ!
Oh fountain flowing deep within
Ever Cleansing heart and soul from sin
Ever present, Ever there for me
My Saviour's love, eternally
:happyclap:
Literal, or spiritual? Spiritual, or literal?
Why, of course, it's both! :bowing:
:thumbsup:
His blood is resurrected. Just one platelet has inconceivable power and ability. The word (DNA) of Who He is is in it.
Awesome dude! :myahoo:
Quote from: jabcat on January 26, 2010, 12:11:23 AM
You have an opinion on how I need to think and post, and what I should or shouldn't understand.
Sorry I came across that way James. I probably should just stay out of these discussions. :sigh:
Take care...
God's already been helping me forgive, brother (not the easiest thing for me - He has to do it through me). I can stand to be taken down a notch or two, and I shouldn't take as much offense as I do sometimes, anyway. God uses us to help shape each other. And I meant it about praying more for you. I've probably been negligent there. Thanks for caring, take care, James.
Quote from: jabcat on January 26, 2010, 01:00:10 PM
God's already been helping me forgive, brother (not the easiest thing for me - He has to do it through me). I can stand to be taken down a notch or two, and I shouldn't take as much offense as I do sometimes, anyway. God uses us to help shape each other. And I meant it about praying more for you. I've probably been negligent there. Thanks for caring, take care, James.
You are defending what you believe is right and what you believe to be beneficial for all of us. I would consider that to be "a perfect heart". So I totally agree that we are shaping each other as I have to go back and reconsider all that you (an others) are saying and your concerns - which is a good thing.
Jesus and His sacrifice means everything to me (as it does to you) and I am inspired by what you and others have written (thank you) but still I am on this very difficult road of challenging theological status quos and I realize it gets very touchy and offensive at times.
Since this forum is not really the place to raise the types of concerns I'm raising - I should have stayed out. Also, accusing people of being superstitious and 'religious' etc. can be very offensive but since I have often fallen into these same categories it's not meant to be condescending as much as observational. Plus,
we all have different ways of expressing the reality of Christ and I always try to leave room for that difference of expression even in the midst of my extremist black and white mentality. Many times we are just saying the same things in different words and communication is lost by having a different understanding of what those words mean.
Hope this makes sense. I love you all and your zeal for God is refreshing/inspiring. Eaglesway - Your panoramic views of the eternal Christ are stunning. Thank you.
Blessings to you all.
- Byron
If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have koinonea with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
There it is, no matter how we define it, we are having fellowship :high5:. However, as James said, "For we all stumble in many ways"..... so occasionally sparks fly, but it's all good, sparks light the fire and the fire purifies and reveals many things we need to see.
The status quo is death, and we all come from many different lands of dispersion on the highways to Zion. At first we look strange to one another, but as we ascend the mount and enter the joy of our Lord, we find ourselves standing as one soul.
John 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
John 17:20-21 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
My hope is in Zion
Of Zion it is said, "All my springs of joy are in thee".
I weep at our captivity
By the rivers of Babylon we wept when we remembered Zion, as our captives demanded of us a song.
I long for our restoration
Psa 84:1-12 For the choir director; on the Gittith. A Psalm of the sons of Korah.
How lovely are Your dwelling places, O LORD of hosts! My soul longed and even yearned for the courts of the LORD; My heart and my flesh sing for joy to the living God.
The bird also has found a house, And the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, Even Your altars, O LORD of hosts, My King and my God. How blessed are those who dwell in Your house! They are ever praising You. Selah.
How blessed is the man whose strength is in You, In whose heart are the highways to Zion!
Passing through the valley of Baca they make it a spring; The early rain also covers it with blessings.
They go from strength to strength, Every one of them appears before God in Zion.
O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer; Give ear, O God of Jacob! Selah. Behold our shield, O God, And look upon the face of Your anointed. For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand outside. I would rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God Than dwell in the tents of wickedness. For the LORD God is a sun and shield; The LORD gives grace and glory; No good thing does He withhold from those who walk uprightly.
O LORD of hosts, How blessed is the man who trusts in You!
I rejoice in the hope of the glory of God
Psa 126:1-6 A Song of Ascents.
When the LORD brought back the captive ones of Zion,
We were like those who dream.
Then our mouth was filled with laughter
And our tongue with joyful shouting;
Then they said among the nations,
"The LORD has done great things for them."
The LORD has done great things for us; We are glad.
Restore our captivity, O LORD, As the streams in the South.
Those who sow in tears shall reap with joyful shouting.
He who goes to and fro weeping, carrying his bag of seed,
Shall indeed come again with a shout of joy, bringing his sheaves with him.
Can a nation be born in a day? Before she travailed she brought forth sons.
Isa 52:6-10
Therefore My people shall know My name;
Therefore they shall know in that day
That I am He who speaks:
' Behold, it is I.'"
How beautiful upon the mountains
Are the feet of him who brings good news,
Who proclaims peace,
Who brings glad tidings of good things,
Who proclaims salvation,
Who says to Zion,
" Your God reigns!"
Your watchmen shall lift up their voices,
With their voices they shall sing together;
For they shall see eye to eye
When the LORD brings back Zion.
Break forth into joy, sing together,
You waste places of Jerusalem!
For the LORD has comforted His people,
He has redeemed Jerusalem.
The LORD has made bare His holy arm
In the eyes of all the nations;
And all the ends of the earth shall see
The salvation of our God.
Depart, depart, go out from there,
Touch nothing unclean;
Go out of the midst of her, purify yourselves,
You who carry the vessels of the LORD.
Grace and peace, John