Evangelical Cult

[Wart Hog]

I share "Burned Outs" frustration with all those, I'm sure, who have tried to share UR particularily with Evangelicals. May be the problem is we're expecting too much. I read a piece recently identifying evangelicals as part of the Eternal Torment Cult. I'd never seen it in that light before. But the more I think about it, the negative, fearful responses I've received over the ears, it sure adds up. That being the case, how should this possibly change our approach and message? Possibly sharing with people they're cult-like responses and reactions to UR may help. When I compare them with Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons, for example, what difference is there, really. The only difference I see is the shade of cult, not its essence... small case cult, as opposed to large case Cult... that's about it. I'm starting to ramble. Please share.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I share "Burned Outs" frustration with all those, I'm sure, who have tried to share UR particularily with Evangelicals. May be the problem is we're expecting too much. I read a piece recently identifying evangelicals as part of the Eternal Torment Cult. I'd never seen it in that light before. But the more I think about it, the negative, fearful responses I've received over the ears, it sure adds up. That being the case, how should this possibly change our approach and message? Possibly sharing with people they're cult-like responses and reactions to UR may help. When I compare them with Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons, for example, what difference is there, really. The only difference I see is the shade of cult, not its essence... small case cult, as opposed to large case Cult... that's about it. I'm starting to ramble. Please share.

I am not sure about cults, but I do know there is a percentage of Christians that assert  "Not all are saved" and their intepretations surround that.

[Wart Hog]

True, but their lack of objectivity and reluctance to listen and engage in meaningful dialogue disturbs me... hence, ear markings of small-case cult. How do we most effectively break into that?

[Paul Hazelwood]

True, but their lack of objectivity and reluctance to listen and engage in meaningful dialogue disturbs me... hence, ear markings of small-case cult. How do we most effectively break into that?

Good question, don't think I have an adequate answer. I have seen people come to this freedom of thought so many different ways I have concluded that I share where I am led and God will do the rest and perhaps it is not my responsibility to do the breaking, only to set the charge and yell,  FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!     :happy3:

[Dallas]

The only way to break through to any one is to break through on ourselves...

All people have already been completley included into the fullness of God, they lack nothing. Unless we believe that they (every living person) is IN already we have no message for them.

2 Corinthians 14 "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

   15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

   16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh"


There is only one Good message, it's a message for everyone, it's the same message for everyone wether they are Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Buddist etc...

Becuase of Jesus, YOU HAVE BEEN INCLUDED. You aren't going to get anything ever... YOU HAVE EVERYTHING!

Hallelujah!!

Peace
Dallas

[Zeek]

The only way to break through to any one is to break through on ourselves...

All people have already been completley included into the fullness of God, they lack nothing. Unless we believe that they (every living person) is IN already we have no message for them.

2 Corinthians 14 "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

   15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

   16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh"


There is only one Good message, it's a message for everyone, it's the same message for everyone wether they are Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Buddist etc...

Becuase of Jesus, YOU HAVE BEEN INCLUDED. You aren't going to get anything ever... YOU HAVE EVERYTHING!

Hallelujah!!

Peace
Dallas

so did Jesus change God's view of us?  or is it THROUGH Jesus, we change our mind about what God has always been; LOVE

[reFORMer]

It's also "The Pastor Cult."  They have other mediators that pursuade them that to subimit to their authority is to be under duly appointed representatives of the kingdom of God, while Jesus refuses to share His bride with another.  How do you think He feels seeing another man in bed with Him and His wife, telling His wife that to love her husband she has to go through Him?

It is not just "The Ceaseless Torture For Ever Cult," a matter of what they believe; but, it is a matter of what they do.  They refuse the Holy Spirit access to His body in their meetings.  Another authority, another doctrine, another practice: "The Evangelical Cult."  It is not consensus of the local body of Christ over what is written in Scripture that determines orthodoxy and orthopraxy for them.  They have those authorized by other men to tell everybody else what to think and do.  Everybody else is not supposed to know on their own or do anything by their own leadings.  Their spirit is overthrown.  They sear their consciences.  They are blinded as was Samson.  Cut:  Seven Locks of Samson's Hair.  Caged:  with every unclean and hateful bird.  The messengers are tying the wicked together into to bundles to be burned!  Woe, woe, and again I say woe!

Revelation 18:1-5 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
1 After these things I perceived another messenger descending out of heaven, having great authority. And the earth is illuminated by his glory.
2 And he cries with a strong voice, saying, "It falls! It falls! Babylon the great! And it became the dwelling place of demons and the jail of every unclean spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird,
3 for, as a result of the wine of the fury of her prostitution have all the nations fallen. And the kings of the earth commit prostitution with her ,and the merchants of the earth are rich as a result of her power to indulge."
4 And I hear another voice out of heaven, saying, "Come out of her, My people, lest you should be joint participants in her sins, and lest you should be getting of her calamities,
5 for her sins were piled up to heaven, and God remembers her injuries...

[jabcat]

The only way to break through to any one is to break through on ourselves...

All people have already been completley included into the fullness of God, they lack nothing. Unless we believe that they (every living person) is IN already we have no message for them.

2 Corinthians 14 "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

  15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

  16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh"


There is only one Good message, it's a message for everyone, it's the same message for everyone wether they are Christian, Muslim, Catholic, Buddist etc...

Becuase of Jesus, YOU HAVE BEEN INCLUDED. You aren't going to get anything ever... YOU HAVE EVERYTHING!

Hallelujah!!

Peace
Dallas

Hi Dallas.  Not expecting to convince you my brother, but stating my own beliefs and understanding of scripture.  I still believe  we each individually need to be saved - at whatever appointed time the Holy Spirit draws each one of us, and we are given the faith to believe on Jesus unto salvation.  I don't believe a Buddist for example, has of yet been chosen, called out.  Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through Him, rather than all roads lead to the Father.  Without getting into a "let's beat each other over the head with the scriptures"  :laughing7:, I'll just say I personally believe there are many scriptures that talk about a specific event of one coming into belief unto salvation.  Some now, called out/chosen for the purpose of working God's will to bring the rest in - all the rest later.  That's the way I see it.  James.

[Dallas]

so did Jesus change God's view of us?  or is it THROUGH Jesus, we change our mind about what God has always been; LOVE

Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, in Romans Paul also says that God passed over sins previously committed... Just as in the wilderness when people lost trust in God and the serpents came to poison them Moses errected a stick for them to look upon and they would be restored, did the stick have magical properties, no but what it did was offer THEM permission to trust God.
God never held anything against any man, Jesus is the means in which all men can hang their shame that prevents them from trusting God and again be part of the relationship.

Hi Dallas.  Not expecting to convince you my brother, but stating my own beliefs and understanding of scripture.  I still believe  we each individually need to be saved - at whatever appointed time the Holy Spirit draws each one of us, and we are given the faith to believe on Jesus unto salvation.  I don't believe a Buddist for example, has of yet been chosen, called out.  Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through Him, rather than all roads lead to the Father.  Without getting into a "let's beat each other over the head with the scriptures"  , I'll just say I personally believe there are many scriptures that talk about a specific event of one coming into belief unto salvation.  Some now, called out/chosen for the purpose of working God's will to bring the rest in - all the rest later.  That's the way I see it.  James

I don't deny that there is an experience that many refer to as their born again moment, but that moment isn't the trigger it's the response.

I don't believe a Buddist for example, has of yet been chosen, called out.

Then what must they do, what job must they perform what, WORK must be accomplished to allow entrance?

No, the buddist is already included, but how can that buddist ever believe if they aren't told? (Romans 10) You can't exclude the buddist, when Jesus died all were included, even you, even before you acknowledged it, However the richness of the treasures of God weren't realized till after you saw...but you were only seeing what had always been there.

[jabcat]

believe on Jesus unto salvation.  I don't believe a Buddist for example, has of yet been chosen, called out.  Jesus

I don't believe a Buddist for example, has of yet been chosen, called out.

Then what must they do, what job must they perform what, WORK must be accomplished to allow entrance?

No, the buddist is already included, but how can that buddist ever believe if they aren't told? (Romans 10) You can't exclude the buddist, when Jesus died all were included, even you, even before you acknowledged it, However the richness of the treasures of God weren't realized till after you saw...but you were only seeing what had always been there.

What must they do?  I don't believe they do anything in and of themselves.  But I believe until they are visited specifically by the Holy Spirit, convicted of their need, and given the faith to believe upon Jesus as their Savior, then they are waiting to be made spiritually alive - each in his own order.  Many scriptures, but for one, I'll reference the jailor..."sirs what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:25..)

Not being harsh, not better than anyone - there but for the grace of God go I [us].  It's how I understand the scriptures.

Thanks for the good discussion.   :bigGrin:  

[lomarah]

Very good discussion! reFORMer, I love what you pointed out about the "church" having mediators and that was an awesome analogy with the lovers! What I am realizing more and more is that we ALL hear from God, He is the One who enlightens ALL men who come into this world. We don't need any man to stand in between us and God to tell us what God wants us to do, He will certainly speak to us Himself!

Anyhow, Wart Hog I think we just need to remember that evangelicals reject our message out of fear, because they believe that if they even consider something that sounds heretical God will throw them into hell to be tortured for all eternity. However I also believe that if the Truth is shared with them even if they reject it at first, seeds ARE planted and they WILL think about it and mull it over. Like Paul, I believe we shouldn't worry too much about our approach to certain individuals, but just share when we are led.

James and Dallas, you are having a very interesting discussion about something that I am personally wondering about. First of all, how do you both define salvation? Is it to be saved from hell or to be saved from death or to be saved from sin or something else or all of the above? (And should we start another thread? lol)

[MyOwnSheep]

I think it depends on ones definition of a cult.  Some christian groups define a cult as any belief system that doesn't share their particular interpretation of the Bible.  If it's popular, it's not defined as a cult by the general populous.  But whether the normative definition is an adequate definition deserves to be questioned.  There have been truly scary cults in our time which have resulted in people dieing, people being separated from their loved ones, bizzarre changes in behavior.  What sets these cults apart is the damaging methodologies which employ specifically and purposefully manipulative tactics to imprison peoples minds. 

http://www.cultfaq.org/cultfaq-answers-brainwashing.html

"A remarkable thing about cult mind control is that it's so ordinary in the tactics and strategies of social influence employed. They are variants of well-known social psychological principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, emotional manipulation, and others that are used on all of us daily to entice us: to buy, to try, to donate, to vote, to join, to change, to believe, to love, to hate the enemy.

Cult mind control is not different in kind from these everyday varieties, but in its greater intensity, persistence, duration, and scope. One difference is in its greater efforts to block quitting the group, by imposing high exit costs, replete with induced phobias of harm, failure, and personal isolation. "

Does Fundamentalist Churchianity fall within these parameters?  Does it use tactics of social influence employing the principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, and emotional manipulation?  Are these tactics used with a great intensity, persistence, duration and scope?  Is quitting the group blocked my threats of impending hell and an inability to return to salvation once it has been denied?  Do followers often suffer with phobias of harm (in the form of being left behind at the rapture), as sense of failure as they fail to live up to impossible legalistic standards, and personal isolation as they must cautiously present to their group the image they have been taught to present as they quell any question within as sinful demonic doubt and reject anyone outside the group as worldly and sent from satan to lead them astray?

I think yes.

[MyOwnSheep]

It's also notable that deviation from the collective results in being ostrasized - increasing the threat of isolation for those who are raised within the group or whom have dedicated years to building relationships souly within the isolationist group.  Your founder, in his video's which I very much enjoyed watching, noted that the Churches to which he once belonged rejected him for his observations regarding Universal Salvation.  Does this not follow the pattern of cult tactics?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WH... (initials just like mine!)  :cloud9:

True, but their lack of objectivity and reluctance to listen and engage in meaningful dialogue disturbs me... hence, ear markings of small-case cult. How do we most effectively break into that?

(1)  "Cults" are a designation created by MEN, and it is literally useless, for any man can call another "cultish"...  It is derogatory, and bears no spiritual fruit in its use.

(2)  Concerning the TRUTH of the WORD, revelation only comes from God...  As we share TRUTH with an Athiest, or Agnostic or Islamic, or Christian, it is not upon US to avail the spiritual substance of it in the ear of those to whom we speak...

Only YHVH has the power to reveal a given TRUTH of His WORD... and everyone which esteems His WORD as His... shall share it with others, with that in mind... content with simply being an INSTRUMENT in the Hand of the Master.

Knowing with CONFIDENCE that there will be times in which a new enlightenment might potentially take place in others, and that at other times it will not take place...

Our duty is to share the TRUTH of the Gospel... It is the DELIVERER which uses that TRUTH to deliver... not the instruments (us) that He might choose to use...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[peacemaker]

We don't need any man to stand in between us and God to tell us what God wants us to do, He will certainly speak to us himself!

:thumbsup:

[peacemaker]

"Cults" are a designation created by MEN

A faux pas of a social context.  :thumbsup:

[MyOwnSheep]

willieH: Hi WH... (initials just like mine!)  :cloud9:

(1)  "Cults" are a designation created by MEN...
...willieH  :icon_king:

Erm all words are designations created by men.  Chair. Apple. Ceiling. Dog.  Cat.  Mouse.  Rainbow. 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WH... (initials just like mine!)  :cloud9:

(1)  "Cults" are a designation created by MEN...

Erm all words are designations created by men.  Chair. Apple. Ceiling. Dog.  Cat.  Mouse.  Rainbow. 

"Erm", ...NONE of these "words" designate MAN in a definitive category... as does the word "CULT"...

Man is not considered a "dog, cat, mouse, rainbow, chair, apple, or ceiling"...  :laughing7: -- although some perchance think a man to be "DOG-LIKE", on occasion...  :laugh: ...even PIG-LIKE! (...once in awhile!  :laughhand:)

...willieH  :icon_king:

[MyOwnSheep]

Okay, I'll bite.

Male, Female, American, Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Christian, Pagan, Witch, Homosexual, Religion, Cult, Redhead, Ethnicity, Race, White, Black, Native, Bearded, Pirate, Geek, Nerd, Jock, Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, British, Canadian, Pakistani, Israeli,  Jewish, Redeemed...

Still lots of words that people assign meaning to.  Designations created by men.  It's how humans communicate.  That they are designations created by men does not remove or diminish the meaning they hold for men.  If we are to cease to discuss anything that involves designations created by men then we will cease to discuss anything at all, including salvation or redemption.  Language is a human tool of communication, a purely social construct.

[peacemaker]

Okay, I'll bite.

Oh no, you didn't!  :laughing7:

[willieH]

Okay, I'll bite.

No one is seeking you to "bite"...  :mnah:

Male, Female, American, Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Christian, Pagan, Witch, Homosexual, Religion, Cult, Redhead, Ethnicity, Race, White, Black, Native, Bearded, Pirate, Geek, Nerd, Jock, Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, British, Canadian, Pakistani, Israeli,  Jewish, Redeemed...

Still lots of words that people assign meaning to.  Designations created by men.  It's how humans communicate.  That they are designations created by men does not remove or diminish the meaning they hold for men.  If we are to cease to discuss anything that involves designations created by men then we will cease to discuss anything at all, including salvation or redemption.  Language is a human tool of communication, a purely social construct.

:omg: ...Whatever! :rolleye:  ...you are missing the points that I intended to make... and are proceeding upon a fruitless sidetrack...

The point being that the TRUTH, is either REVEALED or VEILED to any given person, and REVELATION of the TRUTH, is NOT according to any particular organization, or line of thinking, ...rather it is left, and rightly so, to YHVH GOD, within the PURPOSE of GOD... that REVELATION is availed to anyone about ANYTHING concerning the Scriptures...

The word "CULT", often used (basically by RELIGIOUS oriented persons) within the discussion of the Scriptures or within the analyzing of doctrinal positions within the "Christian Religion", ...is a PURPOSED derogatory term which is used and INTENDED in a DEROGATORY manner toward one or more persons...

It is ineptly and FOOLISHLY used by one who holds his/her opinion as "the TRUTH" -- and in strawman fashion employs the term "CULT", ...and thereby hopes to "designate" the opinion which is noted in discussion as OPPOSING to their own, as "CULTISH" or OF a "CULT"...  :dontknow: ...and therefore (by this name calling) false or misleading...

Usually this is done because the user of said term, is unable to Biblically respond to the challenge being made to their position... and seeks to erect a strawman by applying the word "cult" to their opposer --- which does not verify their position, but gives them an excuse to resort to, ...in lieu of proper Biblical response.

Try going to CARM, and challenge their current observational positions of the Bible... Matt Slick will oblige your challenge by ridiculing it with such words as "CULT", ...and then proceed to delete your challenge in the name of this strawman diversion, using said term as his JUSTIFIABLE basis...  :rolleye:

The use of such words by ANY which seek to uphold and secure the TRUTH, are employing DIVISIVE and UNFRUITFUL terminology instead of HONORABLY proving their position with the WORD of GOD.   :sigh:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[MyOwnSheep]

It is true that some people use it as simply a derogatory label for anyone they disagree with, but I do think that these people are misusing the term.  Nobody denies that the poisoned coolaid drinkers and weapon stockpilers are bad news, I'm not aware of a term for these other than cult.  What about a religion whose end goal is to be given all of your worldly assets and then seal you away on a prison ship in international waters, never to be heard from again?  I mean, jeepers! 

But the term cult has, as you point out, been watered down and used by members of one Christian sub-group to describe any other Christian sub-group which they consider to be heretical.  They don't want to call them Christian, so they call them cults. Cult is the new Heretic for these people. 

But if we aren't to use the term 'Cult' to describe the overtly manipulative and controlling coolaid drinkers of the world, what word is there?  Surely the excercise of principles of phsychological manipulation and control are separate from a true Shepherd empowering and enabling his flock to form an independent and vibrant relationship with a Living and Loving Creator?

[willieH]

But if we aren't to use the term 'Cult' to describe the overtly manipulative and controlling coolaid drinkers of the world, what word is there?  Surely the excercise of principles of phsychological manipulation and control are separate from a true Shepherd empowering and enabling his flock to form an independent and vibrant relationship with a Living and Loving Creator?

Do you really need to employ this term to prove your position in proximity to another MOS?

Also... those enveloped within RELIGIOUS trappings will not be detered by name calling. :pitiful:   Applying the word "CULT" to them, shall do nothing to shake their position! ...all it does is lower the user, (in their eyes and heart of the named) by its application to them.

If one has the BEAUTIFUL position of TRUTH, ...one does not have to resort to using such words as "CULT" in discussion with another.   Just using the TRUTH one has been blessed to know, shall be sufficient. 

For the TRUTH does BEAR WITNESS of ITSELF:

John 14:6 -- I... am the way the TRUTH and the life...

John 8:18 -- I... am one that BEAR WITNESS of ...MYSELF...

IMO -- The word "CULT" is UNBIBLICAL terminology, and has no place in the discussion of the Holy WORD, for all it serves to do... is DIVIDE.   It certainly will NOT persuade another to change his/her position by being named with it.  :mshock:

No amount of name calling or potentially fallible condescension, will EVER exalt ones position from fallacy to TRUTH...  :dontknow:

And the TRUTH is not in need of the "assistance" of such words to avail itself to anyone.  :declare:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[MyOwnSheep]

I'm just here to discuss the topic of the thread with respect to Warthog, the topic starter.  You seem to be offended by the topic itself and wish to end it rather than engage in it.

I suppose Biblical terms to employ in a discussion of Cult-like behaviors would be 'False Prophets' and 'Judging the spirit'.  Perhaps also examining 'fruit'.

Questioning methods employed to attain and retain membership, whether those methods have good fruit or are damaging to souls and minds, would still be not only allowable but recommended under the above Biblical terms.  Which is what I think Warthog, if I understood his initial post, is seeking to approach with this thread.

Understanding the sources and the results of negative patterns of behavior is beneficial in and of itself.  The edification of the body requires that we each be free to separate the wheat from the chaff.  No subject is forbidden for prayerful examination.  The Disciples, and the Christ Himself, were never shy to rebuke either Pharisees or Early Churches when they were behaving in a manner self-serving and even damaging.

The question of whether methods and behaviors employed throughout modern Churchianity follow negative and damaging patterns associated with common understandings of Psychological Manipulation and control as employed by those organizations which share the label of cult even outside Christian culture and within mainstream culture is worthy of examination and discussion.

[Beloved Servant]

Whether Brother willieH is offended or not is not the concern of this post.
The point is, however, is that YOU perceive it so and yet carry on.