Is David still in his grave?

[Chris]

Make no mistake Paul, I KNOW exactly who shall RISE FIRST.... THE DEAD/TARES!

I also know WHO "the dead" (the "tares") ARE.

I also know WHO Jesus sent TO REAP!

You see Paul, I used to agree WITH YOU until I realized WHO "the dead" really are.

Now if we can dispense with the insults, perhaps we can have a more productive conversation?  :flowerred:

Chris

Sorry Chris,

You confused an observation with an insult!

All is of God! Including our specific beliefs!

If you see THE DEAD/TARES rising first! Then so shall it be for you! God's will be done for us both! To God be the glory!

See ya at the resurrection! :wink:

Paul

So shall it be, not because I said so but because Jesus Christ said so:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

To maintain your understanding of who "the dead in Christ" are you have to believe that Paul contradicts THE LORD, whereas I do not.

Jesus Christ is Lord of both the LIVING and the DEAD; we are all found IN HIM, having been reconciled to God through HIS BODY.

How can "the wheat" (the elect) EVER be "gathered first" when the FIRST thing that needs to happen for one to pass from DEATH unto LIFE is for all that "hay, wood and stubble" to be BURNED UP?

You may still be waiting/watching for Christ to come, as those who sleep are told to, but I believe Christ IS COME - without sin unto salvation FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE.

And those who LIVE and BELIEVE shall NEVER DIE.

So I find it rather ironic that you call me uniformed and accuse me of agreeing with the serpent because I agree WITH CHRIST  - call it just "an observation" (rather than see it for the INSULT that it is) and then refuse to address what I have posted concerning THE SCRIPTURES because you are so secure in your own "rightness".

Thank the Lord that I did not act as you have with me to the person who questioned my standing ( where you are now ) a few years ago and I was willing to lend them an ear and hear what they had to say and actually prayerfully and thoughtfully consider it, as I waited on the Lord to give me a better understanding.

   

[Chris]

if the tares rise first, then that makes them the first fruits, the few chosen.  

How? Where you born a "wheat"? Born righteous?  

You seem to want to look at 'individuals' as "wheat" and "tares" and yet want to ignore the fact that we are ALL ~by nature~ CHILDREN OF WRATH (tares).

It is not UNTIL "the chosen" ARE "chosen" that that which is not fit for the kingdom is BURNED UP.

It is the same for everyone, we must ALL pass THROUGH THE FIRE. Or do you see some 'other' way?

[Chris]

Consider how Scripture here speaks.  The goal of not dying, of entering a higher realm in Christ is the one and only thing Paul is pursuing.  He considers it attainable.  Everything else is garbage to Him.

Philippians 3:7-15, 20-21 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
7 But things which were gain to me, these I have deemed a forfeit because of Christ.
8 But, to be sure, I am also deeming all to be a forfeit because of the superiority of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, because of Whom I forfeited all, and am deeming it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:
10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
12 Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front --
14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you.
20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
21 Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.

What I'm understanding from this is that the door to not dying has been open at least since Jesus died, rose victorious from the dead and ascended into glory, sending forth His Spirit into us to accomplish the same victory.  Whatever God does is by faith.  I expect some progressive series of words with enabling power to emerge into our consciousness.  Whether direct or through other vessels, it is God's own summons into a higher dimension in Christ.  It is possible this call remains in a place we can come into.  However it happens, it has to be available without respect of persons.  Whoever meets the qualifications may enter.  If all we can do is wait for some distant day, then  the book of Philippians is junk.

Hey reFORMer!

What began to stand out to me about that passage as my understanding of all of this began to change was that I used to use this passage to prove that Paul was saying that he "had not already attained unto the resurrection of the dead".

But what I was not seeing is that this is not what he is saying at all, but that he "counts not himself" and continue to strives for it "as though" he has not already attained unto it. And he tells "as many AS BE PERFECT" to "walk by the same rule".

So why would Paul call others "perfect" and yet "not count" HIMSELF?  :Chinscratch:

[Chris]

Consider how Scripture here speaks. The goal of not dying, of entering a higher realm in Christ is the one and only thing Paul is pursuing.  He considers it attainable.  Everything else is garbage to Him.

We can read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where Paul is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ:

"And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord."

This is when Paul expects to be with the Lord, at the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ, not before then. Let us see another wonderful example of when Paul plans to be with Jesus. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 states:
"We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembly with him."

We can see that Paul expects the Thessalonians and himself to assemble with Christ at "His Coming."

Hey, but that's just my  :2c:

Paul

Christ comes "the second time" unto them that look for Him and he "comes" AS THE COMFORTER.

He said: I will not leave you comfortless, I WILL COME TO YOU.

What Paul is talking about to the Thessalonians with regard to "the dead in Christ" rising first is "THE END" when ALL WHO REMAIN (both THE LIVING and THE DEAD) shall be gathered unto the Lord and it is "the dead" (THE TARES, who also "remain") who shall rise first. Then those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together WITH THEM, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR and then we shall ALL "ever be with the Lord".

Where does Paul say that they will now rule with Christ in a physical kingdom on this physical earth for "a thousand years" to be followed by "another resurrection" for the wicked/unjust/tares?

And, again, why would Paul need to COMFORT BELIEVERS who already looked forward to "the resurrection of the dead" concerning "the dead" if those "dead in Christ" were physically dead BELIEVERS?

Clearly you are looking at this from only a physical perspective, but that which is seen is meant to reveal to us that which is not seen. The fact that Paul did not "count" himself and almost always included himself among those to whom he was preaching the COMING of the Lord, should not cause us to ignore the fact that Paul bore witness of others, just as Christ bore witness of John the Baptist (who also did not bear witness OF HIMSELF).

It is not UNTIL Christ is formed WITHIN US that we are "delivered of the child" and "saved" and this happens "at His coming" (CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY). It is those who LIVE and BELIEVE who "rule and reign with Christ" IN LIFE over the kingdom, becoming labourers in the field (the field was WHITE, ALREADY TO HARVEST, even ~ 2000 years ago).

THEN COMETH THE END, when "those who remain" (both the living and the dead) still need to be gathered.

[Zeek]

if the tares rise first, then that makes them the first fruits, the few chosen.  

How? Where you born a "wheat"? Born righteous?  

You seem to want to look at 'individuals' as "wheat" and "tares" and yet want to ignore the fact that we are ALL ~by nature~ CHILDREN OF WRATH (tares).

It is not UNTIL "the chosen" ARE "chosen" that that which is not fit for the kingdom is BURNED UP.

It is the same for everyone, we must ALL pass THROUGH THE FIRE. Or do you see some 'other' way?

I don't see all "children of wrath" going through the wrath of God.  There is clearly imo; those who are not destined to wrath.  Those who are not hurt of the fire, indicating there are those who are. 

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.



I understand your view (i think), but think that this "spiritual" view, is not how Paul, James, John were teaching it.  And if I understand you correctly, the view of an "us versus them" approach; that I believe Paul and gang were preaching; would be definede by you and many here as carnal teaching, or "natural", because it didn't look inwardly; applying the "us and them" as "inward/outward men". 



I was thinking more of your view yesterday as I was driving; and I wondered if you still see your self as mortal putting on immortality?  and if being fully "immortal" is possible while you are literally living? (ie: before your physical death). 

Can you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul in this literal/physical life?  And if you receive the end of your faith as attainable, would the "fires" stop, as there would be no more faith to be tried.  What to you, would be "immortal"?  How will you know you are there?  Have you ever met anyone "immortal" while physically alive?  I think buddhists would say it is possible, what they call enlightenment. 

[Chris]

I don't see all "children of wrath" going through the wrath of God. 

So you can be "a child of wrath" without having the wrath of God abide upon you?

There is clearly imo; those who are not destined to wrath.  Those who are not hurt of the fire, indicating there are those who are. 

AMEN!! But who is it that is not appointed to this condemnation? Isn't it those who believe? Those who have PASSED from death unto life? So how did they PASS from death unto life? Was it not through "this fiery trial which is to try you"?

Why do not see "this fiery trial which is to try you" as "the lake of fire" (into which the UNBELIEVING - as well as those who will have their PART with the unbelieving - are cast)?

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Amen, but the one who HAS "eternal life" did not always have it; he was once a child OF WRATH. Did not the wrath of God abide upon him BEFORE he "believed"?

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

And what man that you know of, besides Christ, has not at one time held the truth in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS?

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Again, who has not HAD a hard and impenitent heart? Only to ONE DAY see "the righteous judgment of God" (which is TO SHOW MERCY AND COMPASSION)?

Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We ARE saved FROM WRATH through HIM... when we PASS from death unto life. The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may DEPART FROM HELL BENEATH.

We are "of this world" (born of only of WATER) long before we are BORN AGAIN  (by the spirit of God). And until we are born both of water AND spirit we are "by nature" THE CHILDREN OF WRATH. Are we not?

What do you associate "the wrath of God" with that you want so desperately to spare "some" from it, while condemning "the rest" to it?   

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Who are "the righteous" and who are "the ungodly"? Were "the righteous" NEVER "ungodly"?

God divides between THE FLESH and THE SPIRIT, between THE NATURAL MAN and THE SPIRITUAL MAN, between THE VESSELS OF WRATH and THE VESSELS OF MERCY.   

It is "the natural man" that must perish and it upon "him" that the wrath of God abides.

I understand your view (i think), but think that this "spiritual" view, is not how Paul, James, John were teaching it.  And if I understand you correctly, the view of an "us versus them" approach; that I believe Paul and gang were preaching; would be definede by you and many here as carnal teaching, or "natural", because it didn't look inwardly; applying the "us and them" as "inward/outward men". 

One shows the other. That which IS SEEN, shows us that which IS NOT SEEN.

Which are we told to be looking upon?

So, yes, it is "carnal thinking" to see ONLY the natural; but you seem to see both but still want to focus on the natural anyway. Why? How is that "rightly dividing the word of truth" BY "comparing SPIRITUAL things WITH SPIRITUAL"?

I was thinking more of your view yesterday as I was driving; and I wondered if you still see your self as mortal putting on immortality?  and if being fully "immortal" is possible while you are literally living? (ie: before your physical death). 

Are you asking me if I believe there are immortal humans? No! The flesh profits nothing; the body returns to dust. Men are MORTAL. But it is still THIS MORTAL that must "put on" immortality. It is about being "clothed" (with Christ, who ONLY has immortality). It is THE SPIRIT that is quickened, not the flesh. 

Can you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul in this literal/physical life? 

YES!! Jesus Christ IS the end of our faith and the salvation of our souls.

And if you receive the end of your faith as attainable, would the "fires" stop, as there would be no more faith to be tried. 

I guess that might depend on what you think "receiving the end of your faith" is. As receiving Jesus Christ is to receive the end of our faith one could say yes. However, we know that "babes in Christ" are "yet carnal" as Christ has not yet been "formed" in them and "the body" growing into "the head" is a process, a growing/maturing process, that might not ever be "complete" in this life as not all "go on unto perfection". Do some? Perhaps, Paul seemed to believe so, as he addressed those who are "already perfect", but perhaps he (as God) was calling those things that aren't as though they are. Am I perfect? A thousand times NO! But then what does being "perfect" mean?

What to you, would be "immortal"?  How will you know you are there?  Have you ever met anyone "immortal" while physically alive?  I think buddhists would say it is possible, what they call enlightenment. 

Men are MORTAL. The flesh profits nothing; the body returns to dust. We are not made "immortal" in the flesh, but through the spirit, as it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened.

[Zeek]

I don't see all "children of wrath" going through the wrath of God.  

So you can be "a child of wrath" without having the wrath of God abide upon you?

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Yes, I believe so.  The day of wrath, as spoken in the new testament times; is a future day imo.  and when that day came, those chosen escaped the wrath of God.  Like Noah, they were elevated/risen above, never to perish.    

There is clearly imo; those who are not destined to wrath.  Those who are not hurt of the fire, indicating there are those who are.  

AMEN!! But who is it that is not appointed to this condemnation? Isn't it those who believe? Those who have PASSED from death unto life? So how did they PASS from death unto life? Was it not through "this fiery trial which is to try you"?

no, i see it as through faith.  There is a fiery trial of one's faith, but that imo is not the wrath of God.  That is a blessing being bestowed upon his son's (not bastards).  The wrath of God is imo, the fire upon those who refuse to live by the faith of Christ, who have They are the one's who    (Rom 1:21)  when they knew God (first), they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(as per Romans 11). There portion is a shame that won't be forgotten.  I believe they are the wicked talked about in Psalm 11.  

Why do not see "this fiery trial which is to try you" as "the lake of fire" (into which the UNBELIEVING - as well as those who will have their PART with the unbelieving - are cast)?

because i see the lake of fire, as a shaming for those who have not put on immortality (clothed in Christ)

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Amen, but the one who HAS "eternal life" did not always have it; he was once a child OF WRATH. Did not the wrath of God abide upon him BEFORE he "believed"?

No, because they were washed with the Spirit, given eyes to see prior to the day of wrath.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

And what man that you know of, besides Christ, has not at one time held the truth in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS?

Yes, a child of wrath, that prior to the day of wrath, but had their scales peeled off, their ears opened, and were washed in the spirit; and passed the test prior to the end of the old covenant world.  Joh 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Again, who has not HAD a hard and impenitent heart? Only to ONE DAY see "the righteous judgment of God" (which is TO SHOW MERCY AND COMPASSION)?

see above

Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We ARE saved FROM WRATH through HIM... when we PASS from death unto life. The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may DEPART FROM HELL BENEATH.

I thought you were saying we were saved or passed from death unto life because of the wrath of God upon us.  In other words, I thot you died to the old man because of the wrath of God.  I may have misunderstood you.

We are "of this world" (born of only of WATER) long before we are BORN AGAIN  (by the spirit of God). And until we are born both of water AND spirit we are "by nature" THE CHILDREN OF WRATH. Are we not?

by nature, yes; but appointed to not have to go through it.  

What do you associate "the wrath of God" with that you want so desperately to spare "some" from it, while condemning "the rest" to it?  

I want to believe what the word teaches, believers are not appointed to wrath.  I don't see the wrath of God as for believers.  It is shaming upon those who don't believe; but it has a positive outcome; the end of that old world.

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Who are "the righteous" and who are "the ungodly"? Were "the righteous" NEVER "ungodly"?

as above

God divides between THE FLESH and THE SPIRIT, between THE NATURAL MAN and THE SPIRITUAL MAN, between THE VESSELS OF WRATH and THE VESSELS OF MERCY.    

It is "the natural man" that must perish and it upon "him" that the wrath of God abides.  

but they move on from death to life; before the day of wrath.  

I understand your view (i think), but think that this "spiritual" view, is not how Paul, James, John were teaching it.  And if I understand you correctly, the view of an "us versus them" approach; that I believe Paul and gang were preaching; would be definede by you and many here as carnal teaching, or "natural", because it didn't look inwardly; applying the "us and them" as "inward/outward men".  

One shows the other. That which IS SEEN, shows us that which IS NOT SEEN.


Which are we told to be looking upon?

So, yes, it is "carnal thinking" to see ONLY the natural; but you seem to see both but still want to focus on the natural anyway. Why? How is that "rightly dividing the word of truth" BY "comparing SPIRITUAL things WITH SPIRITUAL"?

because imo, the letters written by Paul and gang, were not to be interpreted IMO as you see it.  He was not speaking in parables to them or allegorically, or of literal truths so they could apply it to their "inner/outer man".  He was speaking of literal things about to happen, yet they were spiritual.  They were huge spiritual applications; as the old wordl was about to vanish. For me, I now see those prophecies fulfilled; and so as we live in this world of "all things new"; we can take inner applications from scripture and apply them.  To me, this is what you are doing.  To me, many religions around the world repeat the same message, new agers same, mystical christians same.  It is because imo; we continue to see ourselves as mortal needing to put on immortality.  always hoping for something; always attempting to clothe ourselves with immortality.  It's forward thinking imo.  It's hope deferred; rather than desire fulfilled; the tree of LIFE.

I was thinking more of your view yesterday as I was driving; and I wondered if you still see your self as mortal putting on immortality?  and if being fully "immortal" is possible while you are literally living? (ie: before your physical death).  

Are you asking me if I believe there are immortal humans? No! The flesh profits nothing; the body returns to dust. Men are MORTAL. But it is still THIS MORTAL that must "put on" immortality. It is about being "clothed" (with Christ, who ONLY has immortality). It is THE SPIRIT that is quickened, not the flesh.  

So I take it, you see it as a "literal body that returns to dust, that is mortal; and must literally die before all is fulfilled in you????

Can you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul in this literal/physical life?  

YES!! Jesus Christ IS the end of our faith and the salvation of our souls.

but that still doesn't make you immortal??

And if you receive the end of your faith as attainable, would the "fires" stop, as there would be no more faith to be tried.

I guess that might depend on what you think "receiving the end of your faith" is. As receiving Jesus Christ is to receive the end of our faith one could say yes. However, we know that "babes in Christ" are "yet carnal" as Christ has not yet been "formed" in them and "the body" growing into "the head" is a process, a growing/maturing process, that might not ever be "complete" in this life as not all "go on unto perfection". Do some? Perhaps, Paul seemed to believe so, as he addressed those who are "already perfect", but perhaps he (as God) was calling those things that aren't as though they are. Am I perfect? A thousand times NO! But then what does being "perfect" mean?

What to you, would be "immortal"?  How will you know you are there?  Have you ever met anyone "immortal" while physically alive?  I think buddhists would say it is possible, what they call enlightenment.  

Men are MORTAL. The flesh profits nothing; the body returns to dust. We are not made "immortal" in the flesh, but through the spirit, as it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened.

sorry for how i wrote back to you, i dont' understand the quote buttons.  

I enjoy discussing this, but please know that it is just that; discussion.  I really am not "attached" to any view; as I KNOW, no matter what my view; we are BELOVED; and that is enough.

:)

[Chris]

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Yes, I believe so.  The day of wrath, as spoken in the new testament times; is a future day imo.  and when that day came, those chosen escaped the wrath of God.  Like Noah, they were elevated/risen above, never to perish.    

It is not always spoken of in the future tense. Paul said that the wrath of God ABIDE UPON (present tense) those who believe not.

no, i see it as through faith.  There is a fiery trial of one's faith, but that imo is not the wrath of God.  That is a blessing being bestowed upon his son's (not bastards).  The wrath of God is imo, the fire upon those who refuse to live by the faith of Christ, who have They are the one's who    (Rom 1:21)  when they knew God (first), they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(as per Romans 11). There portion is a shame that won't be forgotten.  I believe they are the wicked talked about in Psalm 11.  

And who are you calling "bastards"?  :winkgrin:

Does God have "bastard" children or does he chasten EVERY SON whom He receives?

The wrath of God abides upon those who believe not, but they "experience" the wrath of God before they are actually "in the presence of the Lord and His angels"? Eye can see and yet not perceive the truth, can it not? So perhaps our "experience" of "the wrath of God" depend upon our knowledge of the Lord?

because i see the lake of fire, as a shaming for those who have not put on immortality (clothed in Christ)

So you believe that God is a respecter of persons? That He will "shame" others but not you? Have you never felt "shame" for your unbelief?

No, because they were washed with the Spirit, given eyes to see prior to the day of wrath.

That doesn't answer the question that I asked. We are not washed with the Spirit BEFORE we have received the spirit; and if we "are" then so is everyone. So does not the wrath of God abide upon (present tense) those who believe not, as Paul stated? And, if so, then how is it that those who are "by nature the children of wrath" do not ALL have "the wrath of God" abiding upon them?

Yes, a child of wrath, that prior to the day of wrath, but had their scales peeled off, their ears opened, and were washed in the spirit; and passed the test prior to the end of the old covenant world.  Joh 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I don't understand what you are saying or how it answers my question, sorry.  :mblush:

see above

I did, but it still seems to make God a respecter of persons.

I thought you were saying we were saved or passed from death unto life because of the wrath of God upon us.  In other words, I thot you died to the old man because of the wrath of God.  I may have misunderstood you.

No, you are just seeing being saved "from" something as never ever having to go "through" it. I am saying that we are save "from" it because it we are "taken out if it"... we pass THROUGH it WITH HIM - just as did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were cast into the fire BOUND, but were seen WALKING LOOSED with one LIKE UNTO THE SON OF GOD.... and "were not hurt"

What do you think is the point of the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? To say that the elect/chosen of God are "not" cast into the fire? 

by nature, yes; but appointed to not have to go through it.  

That's not true. The natural man is the very man who IS appointed unto the wrath of God, as it is "the natural man" that must PERISH. 

I want to believe what the word teaches, believers are not appointed to wrath.  I don't see the wrath of God as for believers.  It is shaming upon those who don't believe; but it has a positive outcome; the end of that old world.

But that is the whole point, believers are NOT appointed unto the wrath of God, only those who BELIEVE NOT.

But ALL BELIEVERS were once UNBELIEVERS... it is "the old man" who is cast into the fire, so that "the new man" (fit for the kingdom of God) can emerge.

as above

I don't know what you mean by that. That the righteous, thou once ungodly, never experience the wrath of God? Not even when they were ungodly?

The only way that you can say that it to claim (as you seem to be doing) that God has not yet poured out His wrath on ANYONE.

Yet, Paul very clearly said that wrath of God ABIDETH UPON (present tense, even ~2000 years ago) those who believe not. Jesus Christ himself said: "I am come TO SEND FIRE ON THE EARTH". Has He not yet done so? And what did he means by "and what will I, if it be already kindled?"

but they move on from death to life; before the day of wrath.  

You can say this only because you see "the day of wrath" as something that takes place "in the future" as part of some linear time line. How can that be if Paul said that the wrath of God ABIDES UPON (present tense) those who believe not (even 2000 years ago)?

because imo, the letters written by Paul and gang, were not to be interpreted IMO as you see it.  He was not speaking in parables to them or allegorically, or of literal truths so they could apply it to their "inner/outer man".  He was speaking of literal things about to happen, yet they were spiritual.  They were huge spiritual applications; as the old wordl was about to vanish. For me, I now see those prophecies fulfilled; and so as we live in this world of "all things new"; we can take inner applications from scripture and apply them.  To me, this is what you are doing.  To me, many religions around the world repeat the same message, new agers same, mystical christians same.  It is because imo; we continue to see ourselves as mortal needing to put on immortality.  always hoping for something; always attempting to clothe ourselves with immortality.  It's forward thinking imo.  It's hope deferred; rather than desire fulfilled; the tree of LIFE.

How is that looking upon that which IS NOT SEEN?

The HOPE is CHRIST IN YOU. You see that as a future hope only?

You say you see the prophesies "fulfilled" yet you are still talking about that which is "to come" that has not been fulfilled, so I don't know exactly what you are saying here, as you say "we continue to see ourselves as mortal needing to put on immortality" and I don't even know if you are saying that is how we are "supposed to" see it or if that is wrong, because it sure seems to be what you are saying?

So I take it, you see it as a "literal body that returns to dust, that is mortal; and must literally die before all is fulfilled in you????

Not at all. That seems to be what you all are saying, that one cannot "put on" immortality until AFTER they die... but it's not even something that we do WHEN we die... but perhaps thousands of years later.

In essence, what this says is that one who is CLOTHED WITH CHRIST ~NOW~ STILL DIES... when Christ said otherwise.

It looks at "death" according to a natural/physical truth (as it relates to a body of DUST that is going to RETURN TO DUST) rather to a spiritual truth as it relates to THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST, a SPIRITUAL body.

but that still doesn't make you immortal??

It doesn't make YOUR FLESH immortal, no. But it does QUICKEN THE SPIRIT. And where does THE SPIRIT go when our bodies returns to dust?

sorry for how i wrote back to you, i dont' understand the quote buttons.  

I enjoy discussing this, but please know that it is just that; discussion.  I really am not "attached" to any view; as I KNOW, no matter what my view; we are BELOVED; and that is enough.

:)

No problem!!

You've known me for several years now, so you know very well how my own beliefs have changed throughout the last several years, as my own understanding of the scriptures has changed as new things have come to light.

I don't expect that I see "perfectly", nor do I know if I ever will this side of the grave - if, even, anyone ever does.

But the one thing that I can't do is ignore the very things that have caused me to abandon some of teachings that I have abandoned. That would be like saying that I can ignore the doctrine of ET and go back into a church that teaches it. See?

I went from believing that the deceased were with God to believing in the doctrine of soul sleep. And I was totally convinced that it was "true" and there was nothing that was going to convince me otherwise, but scripture/God. Well, the time came when those things that I was NOT considering finally came to light and I realized that I had not abandoned a lie for the truth after all. I was just not understanding WHO "the dead" ARE and who (NOT MAN) "ascends and descends". I was not seeing who "the angels" are or comprehending what Christ meant when He said that the field were white AND READY TO BE HARVESTED. Nor did I see that He has already sent His disciples TO REAP (the reapers ARE THE ANGELS). 

God does speak in parable and allegories, using types and shadows and those "shadows" are NOT the reality; they simply point to and reveal THE TRUTH!

As someone else pointed out to me years ago... a car can cast a shadow, but the shadow IN NOT THE CAR.

And just as a CORPSE "knows nothing" and "cannot work" and "cannot praise God" because it is "dead" (having NO LIFE in it) and there is "no consciousness" in that body of flesh in which there is no spirit... the same is true of those who partake not of the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ... there is NO LIFE In them; they are "dead", they "know nothing", they "cannot work" (or they are called DEAD WORKS) and they "cannot praise God", whom they do not know.

The "corpse" is but A (natural) SHADOW of a spiritual truth. But it is not :the truth" in and of itself.

Chris

[Zeek]

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


treasurest up
G2343
θησαυρίζω
thēsaurizō
thay-sow-rid'-zo
From G2344; to amass or reserve (literally or figuratively): - lay up (treasure), (keep) in store, (heap) treasure (together, up).


Jas 5:3  Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

sounds linear to me, and I'll bet James meant it to be linear, as the day was approaching fast.  

Mat 3:7  But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luk 21:23  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Eph 5:6  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

[Zeek]

It is not always spoken of in the future tense. Paul said that the wrath of God ABIDE UPON (present tense) those who believe not.

I take this as they are storing up (treasuring up) wrath for the approaching day of wrath. 

[Zeek]

So you believe that God is a respecter of persons? That He will "shame" others but not you? Have you never felt "shame" for your unbelief?

I believe God is no respector of persons, because he loves us all.  However; I definitely see certain peoples given different portions; to carry out His plan. 

No, I have never felt shame for unbelief.  I have felt self imposed shame for supposedly "dissapointing God" which really was from being "conditioning" from my earthly parents.         

[Zeek]

No, you are just seeing being saved "from" something as never ever having to go "through" it. I am saying that we are save "from" it because it we are "taken out if it"... we pass THROUGH it WITH HIM - just as did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were cast into the fire BOUND, but were seen WALKING LOOSED with one LIKE UNTO THE SON OF GOD.... and "were not hurt"

What do you think is the point of the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? To say that the elect/chosen of God are "not" cast into the fire? 

if shadrach, etc were not hurt,

then no one is hurt; by your interpretation that God is no respector of persons. 

[Zeek]

The HOPE is CHRIST IN YOU. You see that as a future hope only?

You say you see the prophesies "fulfilled" yet you are still talking about that which is "to come" that has not been fulfilled, so I don't know exactly what you are saying here, as you say "we continue to see ourselves as mortal needing to put on immortality" and I don't even know if you are saying that is how we are "supposed to" see it or if that is wrong, because it sure seems to be what you are saying?

I apologize, forums are a hard medium to communicate.  For me, I see all prophecy fulfilled.  When I speak of wrath to come, I speak as if I were living in the first century times.  I see no wrath to come anymore.  God has fulfilled through Christ the old and all is new.  IMO, we are living in that world. 

Christ in me, my hope of glory; is a view from "not yet".  I no longer hope for that; as I AM already.  I AM HIS.  Immortality imo; was a covenental term.  Putting on immortality was during the transition of the ages; when the old was ready to pass away; and the new to arrive. 


but (and where i probably confuse you)

is I see us here on earth learning, thinking, and growing into awareness of who we are.  This process, definitely mirrors what you have outlined (ie: the tares within dying, as the new resurrects.  dying to old thots, rising to new). 


What I find absolutely fascinating; is the "smart people" out there; YOU; that can "make sense" of the bible story and apply it to your inward growth;

when;

for me; I don't see that as what Paul, James and gang were preaching. 


how's that for confusing ya. 

blessings to you Chris.  i'll step away for now, as i start obsessing too much over posts, and tend to neglect the important stuff in my life; my family. 

Love to you

Z/L 

[Chris]

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


treasurest up
G2343
θησαυρίζω
thēsaurizō
thay-sow-rid'-zo
From G2344; to amass or reserve (literally or figuratively): - lay up (treasure), (keep) in store, (heap) treasure (together, up).

Who is being addressed in that passage?

Jas 5:3  Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Who are "the rich men" being addressed there?

sounds linear to me, and I'll bet James meant it to be linear, as the day was approaching fast.

Because it mentions "the last days"?  Are we not in "the last days"?

It's not that there is not a "linear" nature to spiritual truths, it's just that they are not limited to TIME and that which is SEEN. In other words, one cannot be "born again" UNTIL "God sends forth His spirit". But "when" that happens for ONE person is not the same as when it happens for another, is it?

One may enter into "THE DAY"  of the Lord (called TODAY) while still others "sleep" in "THE NIGHT" (called Yesterday, when it is past).

That which we can "see" taking place IN TIME in a PHYSICAL way (law... Christ... grace) are carried out within the lives of believers in a spiritual way. We start out as "children" (in bondage, under the law) until such time as "Christ is come" and when Christ "is formed IN US" we pass from death (LAW) unto life (GRACE) and receive "the adoption OF SONS".

Mat 3:7  But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

This was spoken before Christ was crucified and resurrected. Christ said: "I am come TO SEND FIRE ON THE EARTH". Christ came ONCE TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) AND AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT.

NOW is the judgment of this world.

Luk 21:23  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

You believe that this is talking about literal women who are pregnant or who have small infants?

Christ compares his MALE disciples to "a woman whose hour has come TO BE DELIVERED OF THE CHILD".

Paul himself talks about "travailing in birth" (and putting away CHILDISH things).

Eve (the church) "shall be saved IN CHILDBEARING".

It's about being "delivered of the child" that "A MAN" (Christ) can be born into the world. It is about having Christ formed in you. (Christ IN YOU, the HOPE of glory.)

Eph 5:6  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Present tense.

You are trying to taking single passages that seem to present things the way that you see them in order to "prove" your point, but you still have to reconcile those passages with the other passages that speak of these things in the present tense.

Not everyone enters into "the DAY of the Lord" at the same time, spiritually. We do not do so until we pass from death unto life... TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts).

1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The word translated "to come" in this verse is "erchomai" and it it is a verb written in the middle voice, written only in the present and imperfect tenses. 

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I think I already addressed this earlier, but who is he talking about? Is it not those who are "OF THE DAY"?

Those who are "OF THE DAY" are NOT "appointed unto wrath". They have already passed from death unto life. Have they not?

The problem is that you are saying that if they do that "here" then they do not have to face "the day of wrath" that is "yet to come".

But I disagree (for the reasons already stated).

NOW is the judgment of this world.

[Chris]

It is not always spoken of in the future tense. Paul said that the wrath of God ABIDE UPON (present tense) those who believe not.

I take this as they are storing up (treasuring up) wrath for the approaching day of wrath. 

How can they be storing up for something "to come" if it abides on them (present, active, indicative tense)?

You are not addressing the fact that this is written in the present tense. Why?

[Chris]

So you believe that God is a respecter of persons? That He will "shame" others but not you? Have you never felt "shame" for your unbelief?

I believe God is no respector of persons, because he loves us all.  However; I definitely see certain peoples given different portions; to carry out His plan. 

No, I have never felt shame for unbelief.  I have felt self imposed shame for supposedly "dissapointing God" which really was from being "conditioning" from my earthly parents.         

And what sort of "shame" do you think those who go through the lake of fire are going to experience? Something other the type of shame that you experienced?

[Chris]

No, you are just seeing being saved "from" something as never ever having to go "through" it. I am saying that we are save "from" it because it we are "taken out if it"... we pass THROUGH it WITH HIM - just as did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were cast into the fire BOUND, but were seen WALKING LOOSED with one LIKE UNTO THE SON OF GOD.... and "were not hurt"

What do you think is the point of the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? To say that the elect/chosen of God are "not" cast into the fire? 

if shadrach, etc were not hurt,

then no one is hurt; by your interpretation that God is no respector of persons. 

Huh?

You are aware that they were not hurt, right?

God is no respecter of persons. Did you mean to say something else?

[Chris]

The HOPE is CHRIST IN YOU. You see that as a future hope only?

You say you see the prophesies "fulfilled" yet you are still talking about that which is "to come" that has not been fulfilled, so I don't know exactly what you are saying here, as you say "we continue to see ourselves as mortal needing to put on immortality" and I don't even know if you are saying that is how we are "supposed to" see it or if that is wrong, because it sure seems to be what you are saying?

I apologize, forums are a hard medium to communicate.  For me, I see all prophecy fulfilled.  When I speak of wrath to come, I speak as if I were living in the first century times.  I see no wrath to come anymore.  God has fulfilled through Christ the old and all is new.  IMO, we are living in that world. 

Christ in me, my hope of glory; is a view from "not yet".  I no longer hope for that; as I AM already.  I AM HIS.  Immortality imo; was a covenental term.  Putting on immortality was during the transition of the ages; when the old was ready to pass away; and the new to arrive. 


but (and where i probably confuse you)

is I see us here on earth learning, thinking, and growing into awareness of who we are.  This process, definitely mirrors what you have outlined (ie: the tares within dying, as the new resurrects.  dying to old thots, rising to new). 


What I find absolutely fascinating; is the "smart people" out there; YOU; that can "make sense" of the bible story and apply it to your inward growth;

when;

for me; I don't see that as what Paul, James and gang were preaching. 


how's that for confusing ya. 

blessings to you Chris.  i'll step away for now, as i start obsessing too much over posts, and tend to neglect the important stuff in my life; my family. 

Love to you

Z/L 

Yes, now I really am confused... if you don't see any wrath 'to come', then why do you seem to be saying that there is wrath yet to come?

I can relate to spending too much time online and neglecting family things. I do it all the time, but I guess I can get away with it since I am single. But I sometimes still wonder if I should let myself get away with it and allow those things to be neglected - as much as they are.  :mblush:

Have a good night!

Chris  :girlheart:

[reFORMer]

(The point I had previously sought to make was that these things ought to have some bearing on what experience of God we are entering into now.)

"...Leave both to grow up together until the harvest, and in the season of the harvest I shall be declaring to the reapers, 'Cull first the darnel, and bind them into bundles to burn them up. Yet the grain gather into my barn.'" (Mt 13:30, CLT)

That says nothing about the tares or darnel being resurrected.  No harpazo in the Greek.  The whole parable may be seen as something transpiring within us.  There is a world within.  The soul is a field with many personages and ideas born of God or the wicked.  As well, the judgments preceding the people of God coming to reign in all the land with the anointing is possibly in view.  Ninety percent of the people who have ever lived are alive today.  Approaching is a period that may be called, "The Great Harvest," when many are taken from their bodies by disasters, and judgment, maybe even nuclear war.

A messenger carries a spirit enlivened word, a message that is spirit empowered.   One explanation of things happening today that fulfill this word is groups like terrorists, or homosexuals that have a fellowship, meaning they are tied into bundles.  The people of these groups find their identity with them, not with other groups in the world.  They are tares being bound "into bundles to burn."  There are other things that can be seen to fulfill these words.  If this is a presently being fulfilled word the joy that should be ours is in believing we are being gathered into His granary.  In neither case, that of the tares or the good seed, is there any mention of the physical body being placed into sonship.

There are may good points that should be accepted within what is called the preterist view.  Full preterism, however, doesn't seem to be pressing into the liberation (redemption) of the Adamic physical by its metamorphosis into a deathless incorruptible embodiment, which is clearly taught by Scripture.  This not to be understood as a spirit apart from a body.  The regeneration of the spirit of a man, what is commonly called "the new birth," or, being "born again," does not correspond with the resurrection.  There are three distinct terms used in the Greek and distinguished in English by the Concordant Literal Translation.  They are, "vivification of spirit," "rousing of the soul," and "raising of the body."  All three are used seen in that version's rendering of 1 Corinthians 15.  All three are also said to occur for all mankind the references for which I have done some searching, having  misplaced my notes on the matter.)

[bobf]

You lost me. Why do you call that which you describes as happening first (tares) "the 2nd resurrection"?

Ok let me clarify.  Your question was in terms of the 1st and 2nd resurrection, so I answered using thoese labels.  But my answer was really in terms of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 which is the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection that apparently follows which is the resurrection of the unjust.  However, I'm not sure there is anything in Revelation 20 that proves  that the "first resurrection" actually takes place first in time.

1. Yes it is called the first resurrection.  But "first" does not have to be about time.  It can also be about rank (Strongs says: first in influence, honor; chief; principal).
2. The verse that says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" is not in the two oldest manuscripts.

Christ said that the tares are harvested "first". So what you have describes seems to be presented in the correct order but you seem to want to label the "resurrection to aionion contempt" as "the 2nd resurrection". Why?

My reason was based on the descriptions of the two resurrections given in Rev 20 not based on their apparent order in time.  Yes the tares are gathered first.  No doubt about that.

I don't think the Romans 14:7-9 says that both living and dead are raised with Christ.

Why?

I guess you'd have to define living and dead.  Tell me how the living can be raised from the dead if they are already living.

When Paul preached the gospel he said that we had already been reconciled to God through Christ (while we were yet sinners). Paul always spoke of us being raised with Christ, having been planted in the likeness of His death, etc (indication that those things had already taken place) even though not all were "walking in it". The admonishment was to walk in it.

But which parts are past tense and which parts are future tense here?

• Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection


• Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.


• Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Paul even spoke of those who had "fallen asleep".  I used to think that he was talking about those who had died, physically... but I now believe that he was referring to those who were raised with Christ (revived) but who "did not remain". When Paul speaks of "the end" when the last trumpet sounds and Christ comes for all of those who "remain", he says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first"... then those "who are alive" and remain shall be caught up with them.  Again, I used to see "the dead in Christ" as believers who had previously died, physically, being called out of their graves.

I guess I still take that rather physically, which probably means I don't really understand it.  :)

But if it is THE TARES who are gathered FIRST, then how can "the dead" not be "the tares"? How can it be the righteous who are being gathered FIRST (in the FIRST resurrection) - the tares not to gathered for another "thousand years"?

I've already given one possable answer.  A second conceivable answer is that the resurrections themselves are not the gatherings.

The fact is that the tares have to be gathered first, in order for the wheat to be gathered into the barn... in order for the wheat to shine forth in the kingdom of God... because if one died for all then were ALL DEAD. Right?

Yes the tares are gathered first.  Taken inwardly this is easy understand.  Especially if you've experienced some of it.

That is exactly what I said. We experience wrath/condemnation FIRST, before we pass from death unto life.

You said "as" rather than "before" which made me want to clarify what you were really saying.

However, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ said that HE ((is)) the resurrection. And even if there is more than one, He also said that when the time of harvest came he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES.

Agreed.

I can see no way of getting around the fact that it is the tares that are gathered first; which would make "the dead in Christ" (who Paul said would rise first) "the tares". Which is why we are not to sorrow for them!! Why would we even sorrow for the righteous, who had already died, physically? Why would Paul need to "comfort" us with the fact that "even the dead shall Christ bring with Him" if he was talking about believers? Who would doubt that?

But that's just it, some not only doubted, they denied the resurrection.

• 1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead.

[Chris]

You lost me. Why do you call that which you describes as happening first (tares) "the 2nd resurrection"?

Ok let me clarify.  Your question was in terms of the 1st and 2nd resurrection, so I answered using thoese labels.  But my answer was really in terms of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 which is the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection that apparently follows which is the resurrection of the unjust.  However, I'm not sure there is anything in Revelation 20 that proves  that the "first resurrection" actually takes place first in time.


1. Yes it is called the first resurrection.  But "first" does not have to be about time.  It can also be about rank (Strongs says: first in influence, honor; chief; principal).
2. The verse that says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" is not in the two oldest manuscripts.

True, though that seems a bit awkward to me. Especially given that those who have part in "the first resurrection" reign with Christ and "the rest of the dead live not until the thousand years is finished".

That appears to say that the righteous are resurrected before the rest of the dead, even though Christ said that the tares are harvested first. So there must be a way to reconcile this apparent contradiction, no?

Christ said that the tares are harvested "first". So what you have describes seems to be presented in the correct order but you seem to want to label the "resurrection to aionion contempt" as "the 2nd resurrection". Why?

My reason was based on the descriptions of the two resurrections given in Rev 20 not based on their apparent order in time.  Yes the tares are gathered first.  No doubt about that.

So how do those who have part in the first resurrection rule and reign with Christ until the thousand years are finished before the rest of the dead live?

I don't think the Romans 14:7-9 says that both living and dead are raised with Christ.

Why?

I guess you'd have to define living and dead.  Tell me how the living can be raised from the dead if they are already living.

I would define both according to a spiritual truth; those who are "living" know God and those who are "dead" do not, but are "dead" in sin. Yet both are "raised" with Christ - not meaning raised "to life", as those who are "dead" still "sleep".

But the scriptures say that God both DIED AND ROSE ~and~ REVIVED.

I believe that all were "revived" (having been raised WITH HIM) but some (even most) have "fallen asleep"... which is why Christ changed the terminology - they are not longer "dead", but "asleep" (the two being equivalent, spiritually). 

When Paul preached the gospel he said that we had already been reconciled to God through Christ (while we were yet sinners). Paul always spoke of us being raised with Christ, having been planted in the likeness of His death, etc (indication that those things had already taken place) even though not all were "walking in it". The admonishment was to walk in it.

But which parts are past tense and which parts are future tense here?

• Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection


• Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.


• Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Exactly!! :thumbsup:

All "have been" (past tense) planted into the likeness of His death (been buried with Him in 'that' baptism... into His DEATH).

But not all know (but all "shall" know) the power of His resurrection.... each in His own order, AT HIS COMING (Christ in you, the Hope of glory).

This is how we have part in "the first resurrection" (HIS).

And we can only know the power of His resurrection by going through that fiery trial with is to try us (the tares being gathered to be burned... that the wheat can be gathered to the barn... so that the wheat can shine forth in the kingdom of God).

This is how "the tares" are harvested first; yet the righteous (once tares) reign with Christ until the thousand years are finished... and then "the rest of the dead" shall LIVE.

Paul even spoke of those who had "fallen asleep".  I used to think that he was talking about those who had died, physically... but I now believe that he was referring to those who were raised with Christ (revived) but who "did not remain". When Paul speaks of "the end" when the last trumpet sounds and Christ comes for all of those who "remain", he says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first"... then those "who are alive" and remain shall be caught up with them.  Again, I used to see "the dead in Christ" as believers who had previously died, physically, being called out of their graves.

I guess I still take that rather physically, which probably means I don't really understand it.  :)

Well, I used to, as well. But I just can't see it that way anymore.

But if it is THE TARES who are gathered FIRST, then how can "the dead" not be "the tares"? How can it be the righteous who are being gathered FIRST (in the FIRST resurrection) - the tares not to gathered for another "thousand years"?

I've already given one possable answer.  A second conceivable answer is that the resurrections themselves are not the gatherings.

Then what would the gathering be?

The fact is that the tares have to be gathered first, in order for the wheat to be gathered into the barn... in order for the wheat to shine forth in the kingdom of God... because if one died for all then were ALL DEAD. Right?

Yes the tares are gathered first.  Taken inwardly this is easy understand.  Especially if you've experienced some of it.

True and very easy to "order" after a spiritual truth, but seems backwards when you try to apply it physically, doesn't it?

That is exactly what I said. We experience wrath/condemnation FIRST, before we pass from death unto life.

You said "as" rather than "before" which made me want to clarify what you were really saying.

Well it seems as if we pass from death to life 'as' we pass through the fire; so I do see a connection. I believe that we are all "cast into the fire" but those who "overcome" are "not hurt" (ie Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego... cast in BOUND, but LOOSED IN THE FIRE as they walked WITH one like unto THE SON OF GOD  :thumbsup:).

However, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ said that HE ((is)) the resurrection. And even if there is more than one, He also said that when the time of harvest came he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES.

Agreed.

:thumbsup:

I can see no way of getting around the fact that it is the tares that are gathered first; which would make "the dead in Christ" (who Paul said would rise first) "the tares". Which is why we are not to sorrow for them!! Why would we even sorrow for the righteous, who had already died, physically? Why would Paul need to "comfort" us with the fact that "even the dead shall Christ bring with Him" if he was talking about believers? Who would doubt that?

But that's just it, some not only doubted, they denied the resurrection.

• 1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead.

As did the Sadducees. But even they erred not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God... and Paul addressed "the resurrection of the dead" after a SPIRITUAL TRUTH, not a natural one; he even called anyone who would ask concerning it, after a natural truth (how are the dead raised up and with what body do they come) as A FOOL! Right?

So even if they understood it (and denied it) after a carnal truth, doesn't mean that it was meant to be understood that way.

That the dead ARE raises, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Why not "will be" raised?

Even Christ put it in the present tense when he sent word unto John the Baptist:

Mat 11:4-5 Jesus answered and said unto them,  Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

That which IS SEEN is meant to show us that which IS NOT SEEN. Right?

So, it seems to me, that looking at "the resurrection of the dead" in relation to physical death (which was NEVER the penalty for sin) and tying it to the flesh and dead/rotting corpses in physical graves is to "err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God" it is to ask "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" It is to focus on the shadow (natural) and miss the reality (spiritual).

It was quite an eyeopener for me when I realize who "the dead" are... and stopped seeing corpses, as Christ said that those who partake not of His flesh and His blood have "no life" in them. And HE is "THE LIFE" that is HID within us and it is not UNTIL HE APPEARS ("until Christ is formed in you") that WE APPEAR WITH HIM - IN GLORY (Christ IN YOU, the hope OF GLORY! ... the angels/stars/celestial bodies of the churches   :girlangel:)   :happygrin:

Sorry it took me a couple of days to reply... been very busy the last couple of days and haven't been online.

Have a great night!!  :Peace2:

[Zeek]

so who are the "reapers"?

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

[Beloved Servant]

The reapers are the wonderful Words of the Lord.

[Zeek]

The reapers are the wonderful Words of the Lord.

scripture please.  thanks.

and who spreads/preaches the words to the whole world prior to the harvest?


 Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

[Zeek]

You lost me. Why do you call that which you describes as happening first (tares) "the 2nd resurrection"?

Ok let me clarify.  Your question was in terms of the 1st and 2nd resurrection, so I answered using thoese labels.  But my answer was really in terms of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 which is the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection that apparently follows which is the resurrection of the unjust.  However, I'm not sure there is anything in Revelation 20 that proves  that the "first resurrection" actually takes place first in time.


1. Yes it is called the first resurrection.  But "first" does not have to be about time.  It can also be about rank (Strongs says: first in influence, honor; chief; principal).
2. The verse that says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" is not in the two oldest manuscripts.

True, though that seems a bit awkward to me. Especially given that those who have part in "the first resurrection" reign with Christ and "the rest of the dead live not until the thousand years is finished".

That appears to say that the righteous are resurrected before the rest of the dead, even though Christ said that the tares are harvested first. So there must be a way to reconcile this apparent contradiction, no?

Christ said that the tares are harvested "first". So what you have describes seems to be presented in the correct order but you seem to want to label the "resurrection to aionion contempt" as "the 2nd resurrection". Why?

My reason was based on the descriptions of the two resurrections given in Rev 20 not based on their apparent order in time.  Yes the tares are gathered first.  No doubt about that.

So how do those who have part in the first resurrection rule and reign with Christ until the thousand years are finished before the rest of the dead live?

I don't think the Romans 14:7-9 says that both living and dead are raised with Christ.

Why?

I guess you'd have to define living and dead.  Tell me how the living can be raised from the dead if they are already living.

I would define both according to a spiritual truth; those who are "living" know God and those who are "dead" do not, but are "dead" in sin. Yet both are "raised" with Christ - not meaning raised "to life", as those who are "dead" still "sleep".

But the scriptures say that God both DIED AND ROSE ~and~ REVIVED.

I believe that all were "revived" (having been raised WITH HIM) but some (even most) have "fallen asleep"... which is why Christ changed the terminology - they are not longer "dead", but "asleep" (the two being equivalent, spiritually). 

When Paul preached the gospel he said that we had already been reconciled to God through Christ (while we were yet sinners). Paul always spoke of us being raised with Christ, having been planted in the likeness of His death, etc (indication that those things had already taken place) even though not all were "walking in it". The admonishment was to walk in it.

But which parts are past tense and which parts are future tense here?

• Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection


• Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.


• Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Exactly!! :thumbsup:

All "have been" (past tense) planted into the likeness of His death (been buried with Him in 'that' baptism... into His DEATH).

But not all know (but all "shall" know) the power of His resurrection.... each in His own order, AT HIS COMING (Christ in you, the Hope of glory).

This is how we have part in "the first resurrection" (HIS).

And we can only know the power of His resurrection by going through that fiery trial with is to try us (the tares being gathered to be burned... that the wheat can be gathered to the barn... so that the wheat can shine forth in the kingdom of God).

This is how "the tares" are harvested first; yet the righteous (once tares) reign with Christ until the thousand years are finished... and then "the rest of the dead" shall LIVE.

Paul even spoke of those who had "fallen asleep".  I used to think that he was talking about those who had died, physically... but I now believe that he was referring to those who were raised with Christ (revived) but who "did not remain". When Paul speaks of "the end" when the last trumpet sounds and Christ comes for all of those who "remain", he says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first"... then those "who are alive" and remain shall be caught up with them.  Again, I used to see "the dead in Christ" as believers who had previously died, physically, being called out of their graves.

I guess I still take that rather physically, which probably means I don't really understand it.  :)

Well, I used to, as well. But I just can't see it that way anymore.

But if it is THE TARES who are gathered FIRST, then how can "the dead" not be "the tares"? How can it be the righteous who are being gathered FIRST (in the FIRST resurrection) - the tares not to gathered for another "thousand years"?

I've already given one possable answer.  A second conceivable answer is that the resurrections themselves are not the gatherings.

Then what would the gathering be?

The fact is that the tares have to be gathered first, in order for the wheat to be gathered into the barn... in order for the wheat to shine forth in the kingdom of God... because if one died for all then were ALL DEAD. Right?

Yes the tares are gathered first.  Taken inwardly this is easy understand.  Especially if you've experienced some of it.

True and very easy to "order" after a spiritual truth, but seems backwards when you try to apply it physically, doesn't it?

That is exactly what I said. We experience wrath/condemnation FIRST, before we pass from death unto life.

You said "as" rather than "before" which made me want to clarify what you were really saying.

Well it seems as if we pass from death to life 'as' we pass through the fire; so I do see a connection. I believe that we are all "cast into the fire" but those who "overcome" are "not hurt" (ie Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego... cast in BOUND, but LOOSED IN THE FIRE as they walked WITH one like unto THE SON OF GOD  :thumbsup:).

However, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ said that HE ((is)) the resurrection. And even if there is more than one, He also said that when the time of harvest came he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES.

Agreed.

:thumbsup:

I can see no way of getting around the fact that it is the tares that are gathered first; which would make "the dead in Christ" (who Paul said would rise first) "the tares". Which is why we are not to sorrow for them!! Why would we even sorrow for the righteous, who had already died, physically? Why would Paul need to "comfort" us with the fact that "even the dead shall Christ bring with Him" if he was talking about believers? Who would doubt that?

But that's just it, some not only doubted, they denied the resurrection.

• 1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead.

As did the Sadducees. But even they erred not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God... and Paul addressed "the resurrection of the dead" after a SPIRITUAL TRUTH, not a natural one; he even called anyone who would ask concerning it, after a natural truth (how are the dead raised up and with what body do they come) as A FOOL! Right?

So even if they understood it (and denied it) after a carnal truth, doesn't mean that it was meant to be understood that way.

That the dead ARE raises, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Why not "will be" raised?

Even Christ put it in the present tense when he sent word unto John the Baptist:

Mat 11:4-5 Jesus answered and said unto them,  Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

That which IS SEEN is meant to show us that which IS NOT SEEN. Right?

So, it seems to me, that looking at "the resurrection of the dead" in relation to physical death (which was NEVER the penalty for sin) and tying it to the flesh and dead/rotting corpses in physical graves is to "err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God" it is to ask "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" It is to focus on the shadow (natural) and miss the reality (spiritual).

It was quite an eyeopener for me when I realize who "the dead" are... and stopped seeing corpses, as Christ said that those who partake not of His flesh and His blood have "no life" in them. And HE is "THE LIFE" that is HID within us and it is not UNTIL HE APPEARS ("until Christ is formed in you") that WE APPEAR WITH HIM - IN GLORY (Christ IN YOU, the hope OF GLORY! ... the angels/stars/celestial bodies of the churches   :girlangel:)   :happygrin:

Sorry it took me a couple of days to reply... been very busy the last couple of days and haven't been online.

Have a great night!!  :Peace2:

The first will be last, and the last first. 

so maybe the tares gathered first, but actually last (second resurrection).  and the last will be first (reigning 1000 years with, given faith, and "eyes to see", aionian life. 

??