Tentmaker Forum

Ok, as promised, as discussion on Acts 2:29.

Bob (or anyone) I wasn't sure where to start, as I didn't want to write some sort of long thesis on the topic (long-winded as I am, I am trying to keep myself in check when I can  :laughing7:) and then ask you/others to dissect it in order to address each point. So I think that maybe making and addressing various points as we go would work better for the purposes of having a discussion.  :bigGrin:

So I am just going to begin by posting the verse in question and making a few comments and then we can take it from there.  :thumbsup:

Act 2:29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

I guess the first thing that I would like to point out is "what" is being discussed and that it the prophesies made BY David OF Christ when he said: "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption".

The "proof" that is being offered of this is the fact that David's BODY is still in its sepulcher while Christ's BODY is not. Christ's tomb is EMPTY! (AMEN!!)

The point is not that David is still "asleep" and awaiting "the resurrection of the dead"; the point is that David's prophesies were fulfilled by the resurrection OF CHRIST (and were not words spoken of David, himself). 

For sure the main point was not that David was asleep.  The main point was, as you stated, that the prophecies were about Christ.  But a side point leading up to the main point was that David was both dead and buried.  I'd be hard pressed to call David dead if he were enjoying eternal life with God.

My question for you would be this.  If you believe David was with God at that time, do you believe David was resurected already.  And by resurrection, I'm referring to the resurrection spoken of by Christ when he reasoned with the Sadducees.

So when was David resurrected?


Paul

Ok, so let's look at a couple of other translation with a slightly different wording:

ASV:
Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

YLT
Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;

LITV
Men, brothers, it is permitted to say to you with plainness as to the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us until this day.


So rather than saying that David "is dead and buried" we have Paul saying that David "died and was buried"

"dead" in this passage [τελευτάω (teleutaō)] is in the aorist (not present) tense.

So, yes, David both died and was buried.

And his sepulcher (tomb, which would contain his body) "is with us unto this day".

(I am going to address the resurrection in another post. )

Looking now at what Christ said to the Sadducees, picking up just before Christ gives his answer:

Mat 22:27-32 And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

First, let's address the fact that "in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven"

Who are "the angels of God in heaven"?

In the book of Revelation we see that letters are sent "to the angels of the churches".

In Galatians we have Paul saying that he was "received as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus"

In the book of Matthew we have Christ saying that "the reapers are the angels".

Who did Christ send "to reap"? (John 4:28)

In 1 Cor we have Paul answering the question "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" and that "not all flesh is the same flesh".

And just as not all flesh is the same flesh, there are body TERRESTRIAL (natrual) and bodies CELESTIAL (spiritual).

And how are those "celestial" bodies described?

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

Then Paul goes on to discuss "the resurrection of the dead", but is it after a physical/natural/carnal truth or after a SPIRITUAL truth?

In relation to "the stars" let's look to Revelation:
 
Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


We can discuss this further, but I want to go ahead and move on to the next part of the verse.


First, Jesus points out that God said: I am THE GOD of Abraham and THE GOD of Isaac and THE GOD of Jacob.

Second, He points out that God is not the God ~of the dead~ but OF THE LIVING.

Remember that Abraham believed God and that is was imputed to him for righteousness.

We are saved by FAITH through GRACE. Abraham died IN FAITH.

Abraham was ALIVE (not "dead"), for God is the God OF THE LIVING (not the dead).

Therefore Abraham was "resurrected from the dead" and was passed FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.

And Jesus said: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."


Jesus Christ ~IS~ the resurrection and the life. Listen to His words to Martha (paying close attention to her words as well):


Joh 11:23  Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

Joh 11:24  Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Gonna stop there for now...

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2010, 05:51:12 AMTherefore Abraham was "resurrected from the dead" and was passed FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.

Ok Chris... this is the part I was specifically looking for.  To believe that Abraham is still awaiting the resurrection that Christ spoke of in that passage can not be reconciled with a belief that Abraham is with God.  But since you believe Abraham was resurrected then your belief is consistent with that passage.

I don't believe that "the resurrection of the dead" has anything to do with rotting flesh in dirt graves (the flesh profits nothing).

People point to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it being a "bodily" resurrection and say that this is "proof" that our resurrection will be the same (bodies popping out of graves).

Yet Paul said that that which is SEWN is ~NOT~ that which is REAPED.... that GOD GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases Him, and to each seed it's own body.

I believe that the reason that Christ was resurrected "bodily" was to prove "the resurrection of the dead", and we can only see "that which IS NOT SEEN" by that which "IS SEEN" (given to us, to reveal those things).

Christ tells us who "the dead" are: they are they who "partake not of" HIS FLESH and HIS BLOOD. They have "no part" in HIS (THE FIRST) resurrection.

God said that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" and Adam/men SINNED and Adam/men DIED; this has nothing to do with our "mortality" as it is THIS MORTAL that must "put on" IMMORTALITY. And we can only do that by being found "IN HIM" who ONLY has IMMORTALITY.  

This passage almost states what you're saying, but you have to connect verse 25 "the dead... that hear shall live" with verse 29 "the ressurection of life"

• John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Quote from: bobf on January 10, 2010, 07:25:43 AM
This passage almost states what you're saying, but you have to connect verse 25 "the dead... that hear shall live" with verse 29 "the ressurection of life"

• John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I'm not sure what you're asking, but I see verse 25 connected to 29 because those who "hear" and "live" are "resurrected unto life", right? Having passed from death unto life.

The remainder (though they "come forth"... "unto a resurrection of damnation") remain "dead" and "the wrath of God" abides upon them (everlasting punishment). 

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2010, 09:45:02 AMI'm not sure what you're asking, but I see verse 25 connected to 29 because those who "hear" and "live" are "resurrected unto life", right? Having passed from death unto life.

I wasn't really asking a question.  Just pointing out that this passage might support what you're saying about the timing of the resurrection to life since Jesus said "and now is".  Yes, I think it is reasonable to connect verse 25 and 29 though I'm sure some would disagree since that would put the 1st resurrection "now" even before Christ died and rose again.   So if you believe that a believer is resurrected to life "now" during his lifetime then what is the timing of the resurrection to condemnation?

Quote from: bobf on January 10, 2010, 03:09:42 PM
I'm sure some would disagree since that would put the 1st resurrection "now" even before Christ died and rose again.  

:thumbsup:

This passage seems to prove that those who have (present tense) eternal life still have a resurrection awaiting them in the future, at the last day.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

   Matthew 22;43

   How is it,then....that David..speaking by the spirit

   CALLS HIM LORD?

   IF THEN....DAVID  CALLS HIM LORD

  HOW CAN HE BE HIS SON?

 I don't think this can really be addressed without Psalms 110

     The Lord says to "my Lord.".[David confessins Christ as the

    Lord]  sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.

  The Lord will extend your mighty sceptor from Zion,

  you will rule in the midst of your enemies. Your troops will be willing on your day of battle

   Arrayed in Holy majesty, from the womb of the dawn

  you will receive the dew of your youth

   THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND


   YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER, IN THE ORDER OF

      MELCHEZIDEK


  what's the order of Melchezidek?  when did it begin[Christ's

  priesthood] when does it end....I tell you He was a priest

  BEFORE THE FOUNDING OF THE WORLD

     Look at His first known appearance ' then Melchezidek

  KING OF SALEM brought out bread and wine.

   Hebrews 7;3 Without Father or Mother, without geneology

  without beginning of Days or end of life, LIKE

  THE SON OF GOD HE REMAINS FOREVER.

   Now, do you recognize WHO this is speaking of?

   who has no Mother of Father, beginning or end?..BUT GOD!!

           the Father and I are ONE....I do only what I see the

      Father doing? What did He see the Father doing?

  casting out demons? raising the dead? laying down His body?

in order to take it back up again?  I think so....

{edited just to highlight the question being answered in this post}

Quote from: bobf on January 10, 2010, 03:09:42 PM

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2010, 09:45:02 AMI'm not sure what you're asking, but I see verse 25 connected to 29 because those who "hear" and "live" are "resurrected unto life", right? Having passed from death unto life.

I wasn't really asking a question.  Just pointing out that this passage might support what you're saying about the timing of the resurrection to life since Jesus said "and now is".  Yes, I think it is reasonable to connect verse 25 and 29 though I'm sure some would disagree since that would put the 1st resurrection "now" even before Christ died and rose again.   So if you believe that a believer is resurrected to life "now" during his lifetime then what is the timing of the resurrection to condemnation?

Not really. Jesus Christ ~is~ THE resurrection and THE life. He is THE FIRST-fruits of them that slept.

The resurrection is not past... nor it is future.

Christ IS, WAS, and IS TO COME.

The "resurrection" that we are striving to enter into is HIS, to know the power of HIS resurrection, which is found IN HIM.

Where do the scriptures ever speak of a "second resurrection"? Nowhere!! It only speaks of THE FIRST (HIS). Blessed and holy is he that has part in THE FIRST (HIS) RESURRECTION.


Look at what Paul said:

Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Php 3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Php 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

[Jesus said: I AM the resurrection an the life. We become "Children OF THE RESURRECTION".]

Php 3:12  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[He never says that he "has not" attained unto the resurrection; he says he continues to strive for it "as though" he has not. Why? ]

Php 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Php 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Php 3:15  Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Php 3:16  Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Php 3:17  Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.


Why would Paul "count not himself" and tell us to "walk by the same rule"?  

Quote from: bobf on January 10, 2010, 03:09:42 PM

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2010, 09:45:02 AMI'm not sure what you're asking, but I see verse 25 connected to 29 because those who "hear" and "live" are "resurrected unto life", right? Having passed from death unto life.

I wasn't really asking a question.  Just pointing out that this passage might support what you're saying about the timing of the resurrection to life since Jesus said "and now is".  Yes, I think it is reasonable to connect verse 25 and 29 though I'm sure some would disagree since that would put the 1st resurrection "now" even before Christ died and rose again.   So if you believe that a believer is resurrected to life "now" during his lifetime then what is the timing of the resurrection to condemnation?

Sorry, I missed the last question. It is also now. Are they not spoken of as taking place that the same time? Some come forth to one while others come forth to the other? The graves were opened at the same time weren't they?

Who does the wrath of God abide (present tense) on?

Quote from: bobf on January 10, 2010, 06:12:58 PM
This passage seems to prove that those who have (present tense) eternal life still have a resurrection awaiting them in the future, at the last day.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The "last" day is also "today"  (when you hear my voice and harden not your hearts).

The "DAY" of the Lord is "divided".

Note that Christ said: "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" (John 11:9)

Why only 12?

There are 24 hours in "a" day, right? But Christ mentions only 'half' of "a" day and says that there are 12 hours in "the" day. Right?

That is because God has "divided" the light from the darkness. THE NIGHT from THE DAY.

And THE NIGHT (when it is PAST) is AS YESTERDAY.

It is also connected to "a thousand years":

Psa 90:4  For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Christ comes "as a thief in the night", right? To awake those who sleep!!

Eph 5:14  Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

WE pass FROM DEATH (the NIGHT) UNTO LIFE (the DAY).

When? TODAY!

When we hear His voice and harden not our hearts.

We become children OF THE DAY, children OF THE RESURRECTION

And are not longer walking "in darkness" (asleep/dead - in THE NIGHT)

And THE NIGHT (when it is past) is as YESTERDAY.

TODAY ~is~ THE DAY of the Lord!!

There is a connection between "the third day", "the last day" and "today".

But it is all ONE DAY unto the Lord.

Thanks Sheila! Good thoughts!! Amen!!

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2010, 07:37:02 PMSorry, I missed the last question. It is also now. Are they not spoken of as taking place that the same time? Some come forth to one while others come forth to the other? The graves were opened at the same time weren't they?

Where does it say they occur at the same time?

QuoteWho does the wrath of God abide (present tense) on?

Are you associating that with resurrection to condemnation?

Matt. 27:53 David is with the Father, and the Chirst where ever they are today.

Lee

2 Cor 2;15,16

    For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are

being saved and those who are perishing.

   TO THE ONE WE ARE THE SMELL OF DEATH;

    TO THE OTHER THE FRAGRANCE OF LIFE

Quote from: bobf on January 10, 2010, 07:59:40 PM

Where does it say they occur at the same time?

Sorry, I was referring to the verse that you posted, so assumed you would know to what I was making reference.

Joh 5:28-29  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Are you saying that you don't see this verse as speaking of this all happening at the same time; wherein one group comes forth unto a resurrection of life while the other to a resurrection of damnation?

Quote from: bobf on January 10, 2010, 07:59:40 PM

Are you associating that with resurrection to condemnation?

Yes, I associated "everlasting punishment" (as opposed to "eternal life") with "the wrath of God".

Here "the resurrection of life" is set apart from "the resurrection of damnation".

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2010, 08:54:31 PMSorry, I was referring to the verse that you posted, so assumed you would know to what I was making reference.

Joh 5:28-29  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Are you saying that you don't see this verse as speaking of this all happening at the same time; wherein one group comes forth unto a resurrection of life while the other to a resurrection of damnation?

I don't see that verse as necessarily saying that it all occurs at the same time.  It might be just stating the fact that this will happen for all at some hour.

QuoteYes, I associated "everlasting punishment" (as opposed to "eternal life") with "the wrath of God".

But every person who passes from death to life (resurrection to life) was formerly a child of wrath (resurrection to condemnation) so wouldn't that put these two resurrections at different times?

Quote from: bobf on January 10, 2010, 09:09:20 PM

I don't see that verse as necessarily saying that it all occurs at the same time.  It might be just stating the fact that this will happen for all at some hour.

I guess so, but it certainly doesn't read that way to me.

Even in Acts it says:

Act 24:15  And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Those who see more than one resurrection "divide" this verse differently, as well; but it still speaks of "a" resurrection. And Jesus Christ says that "He" is "the" resurrection.


If Christ is "the" resurrection then how can there be more than "one"?

Quote from: bobf on January 10, 2010, 09:09:20 PM

But every person who passes from death to life (resurrection to life) was formerly a child of wrath (resurrection to condemnation) so wouldn't that put these two resurrections at different times?

I don't think so, I think we are all resurrected unto damnation, then we PASS from death unto life.

However, it's not as cut and dry as that, IMO.

As I see it we are resurrected to both...the inward man (vessel of mercy) unto the resurrection of life, the outward man (vessel fitted for destruction) unto damnation.

As the outward man (the natural man) decreases, the inward man (the spiritual man) increases... and we PASS from death unto life (though within us is "both" life and death).

Hey Bob, one of the things that made me begin to doubt my own understanding of the millennium and the resurrections back when I was at BT was this:

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

As soon as that finally stood out to me I had to question everything that I believed about the resurrection(s) and the millennium.

If I was claiming (and I was) that the elect come forth FIRST in "the first resurrection" (because we all know that "blessed and holy is that comes forth IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION) and then that resurrection was followed by "a thousand years" (whether literal or figurative) that was followed by "the second resurrection" (the resurrection of the "unjust") then how is it that, according to Christ, "the tares" are harvested FIRST?   :Chinscratch:

 Listen to what God said when deliverance from bondage

was worked through Moses. Exodus 5;2 Pharoah said ,'who is

the Lord that I should obey him and let Israel go"

  Then they said .' THE GOD OF THE HEBREWS HAS MET WITH

US. NOW....LET US TAKE A 3 DAY JOURNEY INTO THE DESSERT

TO OFFER SACRIFICES TO THE LORD OUR GOD,

 OR HE MAY STRIKE US WITH PLAGUES OR THE SWORD


  Luke 13;32  go tell that fox,'I will drive out demons today and

tomorrow and on the third day I will reach my goal'

 IN ANY CASE...I MUST KEEP GOING.....TODAY...TOMORROW

 AND THE NEXT DAY- FOR SURELY NO PROPHET CAN DIE

  OUTSIDE JERUSALEM!![v35 Look! your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord']

  Note the similiarity  Moses delivery of Israel in slavery....

 and Jesus delivery of the Israel of God to bondage of sin

  both into the promises of God[promised land/kingdom]

  evil generation that perished in the wilderness wandering 40

   years[ad70]

 interesting, huh?

  what if...the raising up of the tares and the raising up of Pharoah[for this cause I raised you up] and  hardening of the heart IS THE RESURRECTION OF THE UNRIGHTEOUS?

Quote from: sheila on January 10, 2010, 06:27:06 PM
   Matthew 22;43

   How is it,then....that David..speaking by the spirit

   CALLS HIM LORD?

   IF THEN....DAVID  CALLS HIM LORD

  HOW CAN HE BE HIS SON?

 A Son is born and savior given
1:31   And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:  


Luk 1:33   And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

 the Throne of David his father
 the word Patriarch is only mentioned twice \ \  once for David the other For Abraham

Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.  
Hbr 7:4 Now consider how great this man [was], unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.  

lots of things  being revealed today  :icon_flower:

2 Samuel 7
1And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;

2That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.

3And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee.

4And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

5Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

6Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.

7In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

8Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

9And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

10Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

17According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Amen ! Sheila and Rose. Some great points!!

I love those connections.

TODAY - TOMORROW - THE NEXT DAY

YESTERDAY - TODAY - FOREVER

THE HEAVENS - THE EARTH - THE SEA

THE NEW HEAVENS - THE NEW EARTH (no more "sea")

THE THIRD HEAVEN (no mention of either "the earth" or " the sea")

Just THE TREE OF LIFE in the midst of THE PARADISE OF GOD!!!  :cloud9:

 
 Awesome Chris....... :thumbsup:

this is why Jesus IS   saying Mat 22:32 But as touching the resurrection of the dead,

have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God,

saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.


Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.  
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 
Hebrews 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,  23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Amen Rose

Was looking at this too:

Hos 6:1-2 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

We move from glory to glory.  :thumbsup:

From YESTERDAY (the NIGHT - when it is past)

To TODAY (the DAY - when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts)

to FOREVER ("caught up to the paradise of God" - THE THIRD HEAVEN - where we can partake of THE TREE OF LIFE freely)

Quote from: rosered on January 10, 2010, 09:59:50 PM


24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

And OH HOW GREAT and WONDERFUL those words are!!

Abel's blood cried up from the ground (recorded in the words of Christ on the cross... "MY GOD, MY GOD, Why hath thou forasaken me?")

God asked Cain "What hast thou done?"

And Christ, being THE MEDIATOR between man and God, "intercedes" for us....

FATHER, FORGIVEN THEM; FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!!!  :HeartThrob:

Praise His Holy Name!!!  :girlheart:

Rom 14:7-9

For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

For to this end Christ BOTH died, and rose, AND revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

 thats just it sis , when Paul was saying this it would be for those who knew the City of David  Mount ZION IS  Davids sepulcher !! the dwelling place of the living God ! '' the sign''  lol...  the raise up  monument !

 Key of David is the clue to those who the  heavens open !

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;  

  Paul was good to say that! in such a way !

 AMEN!!!

    and then they shall see  THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN

    COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN

 

For me all those whom slept with their fathers in the City of David are raised up ! the clue must be Matt 27;53

the New Jerusalem is the new heavens ! 2Sa 5:7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same [is] the city of David.
 for the old Jerusalem  was dead .. Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Zion
(From Hitchcock's Bible Names)

monument; raised up; sepulcher

   On that day, David said ,

    ' ANYONE WHO CONQUERS THE JEBUSITES WILL HAVE

  TO USE THE WATER SHAFT TO REACH THOSE

   'LAME AND BLIND WHO ARE DAVID'S ENEMIES

   that is why they say..the blind and lame will not enter the

    palace.

   jebu= threshing place

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2010, 09:36:11 PM
Hey Bob, one of the things that made me begin to doubt my own understanding of the millennium and the resurrections back when I was at BT was this:

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

As soon as that finally stood out to me I had to question everything that I believed about the resurrection(s) and the millennium.

If I was claiming (and I was) that the elect come forth FIRST in "the first resurrection" (because we all know that "blessed and holy is that comes forth IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION) and then that resurrection was followed by "a thousand years" (whether literal or figurative) that was followed by "the second resurrection" (the resurrection of the "unjust") then how is it that, according to Christ, "the tares" are harvested FIRST?   :Chinscratch:

Hi Chris,

Yes, I am aware of that verse and it's relation to our discussion.  I am not stuck on looking at the resurrection(s) as future literal physical events with 1st preceding 2nd by a thousand years.  But when I have looked at these as spiritual events, what I "saw" was that wrath and condemnation (Christ coming as a thief) precedes awakening to our sin and is followed by turning to Christ and passing from death to life.  That's why I was surprised that when you said you saw them as simultaneous.

Quote from: bobf on January 11, 2010, 03:48:13 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2010, 09:36:11 PM
Hey Bob, one of the things that made me begin to doubt my own understanding of the millennium and the resurrections back when I was at BT was this:

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

As soon as that finally stood out to me I had to question everything that I believed about the resurrection(s) and the millennium.

If I was claiming (and I was) that the elect come forth FIRST in "the first resurrection" (because we all know that "blessed and holy is that comes forth IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION) and then that resurrection was followed by "a thousand years" (whether literal or figurative) that was followed by "the second resurrection" (the resurrection of the "unjust") then how is it that, according to Christ, "the tares" are harvested FIRST?   :Chinscratch:

Hi Chris,

Yes, I am aware of that verse and it's relation to our discussion.  I am not stuck on looking at the resurrection(s) as future literal physical events with 1st preceding 2nd by a thousand years. 

With who coming forth in the 1st resurrection and who coming forth in the 2nd?

And in relation to Mat 13:30?

Quote from: bobf on January 11, 2010, 03:48:13 AM

But when I have looked at these as spiritual events, what I "saw" was that wrath and condemnation (Christ coming as a thief) precedes awakening to our sin and is followed by turning to Christ and passing from death to life. 

Absolutely! We pass from death unto life. For night to day, darkness to light, yesterday to today... to forever.

Quote from: bobf on January 11, 2010, 03:48:13 AM

That's why I was surprised that when you said you saw them as simultaneous.

We are "raised" WITH CHRIST. If that includes both "the living" and "the dead" how can it not be simultaneous? Though we experience the wrath/condemnation FIRST as we pass FROM DEATH unto LIFE?

Quote from: Chris on January 11, 2010, 04:37:12 AM
With who coming forth in the 1st resurrection and who coming forth in the 2nd?

And in relation to Mat 13:30?

Ok let me use Daniel 4 and king Nebuchadnezzar as an example.

Here is where Jesus came as a thief.

• Daniel 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

The tares were removed during the seven times of judgment when Neb. was cast out of his kingdom.

• Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will

Nebechadnezzar's words prior to that judgment revealed his heart, that He worshipped himself.  Tares.

• Daniel 4:30  The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

The kings words after judgment reveal his new heart, glorifying God.  Tares removed.

• Daniel 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


• Daniel 4:3  How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation

.

I believe Neb. passed from death to life here.

• Daniel 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

If I had to relate them to the 1st and 2nd resurrection.  I'd say that the 2nd resurrection to aionion contempt corresponds to Neb being judged and cast out of his kingdom for seven times.  The 1st resurrection to life corresponds to Neb. lifting his eyes to heaven and having his kingdom restored. Problem with that is they are out of order with Revelation 20.  So I can't really draw that conclusion.

QuoteWe are "raised" WITH CHRIST. If that includes both "the living" and "the dead" how can it not be simultaneous?

I don't think the Romans 14:7-9 says that both living and dead are raised with Christ.  Nebuchadnezzar both died and lived unto the Lord, but I think only his being made alive from the dead corresponds to being raised with Christ.

QuoteThough we experience the wrath/condemnation FIRST as we pass FROM DEATH unto LIFE?

All the examples I can think of in scripture has people experiencing wrath and condemnation before passing from death to life.  For example, you quoted this.

• Hosea 6:1-2 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

They experienced being torn and smitten prior to saying "let us return unto the LORD" and prior to being made alive on the third day.

QuoteThose who see more than one resurrection "divide" this verse differently, as well; but it still speaks of "a" resurrection. And Jesus Christ says that "He" is "the" resurrection. If Christ is "the" resurrection then how can there be more than "one"?

1. I'm not sure there is any "a" in the text.
2. "a resurrection of the just and unjust".  Can't I also say "my son and daughter have a birthday this week"?
3. I think the resurrection of the unjust is more of an rude awakening from sleep than a making alive.  The word "awake" in this verse is the same as the one for the resurrection of the unjust in Daniel 12:2.

• Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.7   He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast [it] away; the branches thereof are made white.

4. When Jesus says "I am the resurrection" I think he's talking about the reusrrection to life.  Even if not, I still don't think Christ saying "I am the resurrection" causes the resurrection to contempt to be simultaneous with the resurrection to life, anymore than it causes your resurrection to be simulataneous with mine.


[/list]

The dead know nothing! David is still in his grave...

Act 2:34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

Psa 146:3  Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.4  His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Joh 11:24  Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."  Notice it does not say on his last day! Just like Job said...

Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Indeed... Paul knew of the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul...  2Ti 2:18  men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Peter confirms...nothing changed with Jesus' ressurection

2Pe 3:4  They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."

We must wait...

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.  That means no one!

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  How can the dead rise if they are in heaven? Note it reads dead, not body!

"The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21). This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body. Paul speaks of the resurrection not 'of the body' but 'of the dead.' This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man.... Thus the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul. The Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus' Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great."  Quote taken from the studies of  Dr. Paul Althaus


Paul

Hi Paul.  How do you understand the following?  I'm not sure what it means.   :dontknow:     Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Quote from: bobf on January 13, 2010, 05:57:27 AM


Ok let me use Daniel 4 and king Nebuchadnezzar as an example.

Here is where Jesus came as a thief.

• Daniel 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

The tares were removed during the seven times of judgment when Neb. was cast out of his kingdom.

• Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will

Nebechadnezzar's words prior to that judgment revealed his heart, that He worshipped himself.  Tares.

• Daniel 4:30  The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

The kings words after judgment reveal his new heart, glorifying God.  Tares removed.

• Daniel 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


• Daniel 4:3  How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation

.

I believe Neb. passed from death to life here.

• Daniel 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

If I had to relate them to the 1st and 2nd resurrection.  I'd say that the 2nd resurrection to aionion contempt corresponds to Neb being judged and cast out of his kingdom for seven times.  The 1st resurrection to life corresponds to Neb. lifting his eyes to heaven and having his kingdom restored. Problem with that is they are out of order with Revelation 20.  So I can't really draw that conclusion.

You lost me. Why do you call that which you describes as happening first (tares) "the 2nd resurrection"?

Christ said that the tares are harvested "first". So what you have describes seems to be presented in the correct order but you seem to want to label the "resurrection to aionion contempt" as "the 2nd resurrection". Why?

Quote from: bobf
I don't think the Romans 14:7-9 says that both living and dead are raised with Christ.  Nebuchadnezzar both died and lived unto the Lord, but I think only his being made alive from the dead corresponds to being raised with Christ.

Why?

When Paul preached the gospel he said that we had already been reconciled to God through Christ (while we were yet sinners). Paul always spoke of us being raised with Christ, having been planted in the likeness of His death, etc (indication that those things had already taken place) even though not all were "walking in it". The admonishment was to walk in it..

Paul even spoke of those who had "fallen asleep".

I used to think that he was talking about those who had died, physically... but I now believe that he was referring to those who were raised with Christ (revived) but who "did not remain".

When Paul speaks of "the end" when the last trumpet sounds and Christ comes for all of those who "remain", he says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first"... then those "who are alive" and remain shall be caught up with them. 

Again, I used to see "the dead in Christ" as believers who had previously died, physically, being called out of their graves. But if it is THE TARES who are gathered FIRST, then how can "the dead" not be "the tares"? How can it be the righteous who are being gathered FIRST (in the FIRST resurrection) - the tares not to gathered for another "thousand years"? 

The fact is that the tares have to be gathered first, in order for the wheat to be gathered into the barn... in order for the wheat to shine forth in the kingdom of God... because if one died for all then were ALL DEAD. Right?

Quote from: Chris
Though we experience the wrath/condemnation FIRST as we pass FROM DEATH unto LIFE?

Quote from: bobf
All the examples I can think of in scripture has people experiencing wrath and condemnation before passing from death to life.  

That is exactly what I said. We experience wrath/condemnation FIRST, before we pass from death unto life.

Quote from: bobf
For example, you quoted this.

• Hosea 6:1-2 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

They experienced being torn and smitten prior to saying "let us return unto the LORD" and prior to being made alive on the third day.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: bobf
1. I'm not sure there is any "a" in the text.

There may not  be; I'd have to check, but it is still spoken of in the singular.

Quote
2. "a resurrection of the just and unjust".  Can't I also say "my son and daughter have a birthday this week"?

True, you could just as easily say that both the just and the unjust will be resurrected.

However, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ said that HE ((is)) the resurrection. And even if there is more than one, He also said that when the time of harvest came he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES.

I can see no way of getting around the fact that it is the tares that are gathered first; which would make "the dead in Christ" (who Paul said would rise first) "the tares". Which is why we are not to sorrow for them!! Why would we even sorrow for the righteous, who had already died, physically? Why would Paul need to "comfort" us with the fact that "even the dead shall Christ bring with Him" if he was talking about believers? Who would doubt that?

Quote
3. I think the resurrection of the unjust is more of an rude awakening from sleep than a making alive.  The word "awake" in this verse is the same as the one for the resurrection of the unjust in Daniel 12:2.

I would say so. It is a casting into fire/judgment. It is only in passing THROUGH THE FIRE that we finally pass from death unto life. Babes in Christ are yet carnal. Christ is not yet formed in them; that takes time.... and a burning away of all that hay, wood and stubble (tares).

Quote from: bobf

• Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.7   He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast [it] away; the branches thereof are made white.

Quote
4. When Jesus says "I am the resurrection" I think he's talking about the reusrrection to life.  Even if not, I still don't think Christ saying "I am the resurrection" causes the resurrection to contempt to be simultaneous with the resurrection to life, anymore than it causes your resurrection to be simulataneous with mine.

We do not pass from death unto life at the same time, no, each man in his own order; but we are already raised with Christ, regardless of whether we are currently "awake" or "asleep". That LIFE is already (HID) within each and every one of us, as Jesus Christ is the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world (it's just that the darkness comprehends it not).

Quote from: Pierac on January 14, 2010, 03:52:34 AM
The dead know nothing! David is still in his grave...

Act 2:34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

David's sepulcher was still with them, yes; it was not David's tomb that was empty, but Christ's.

And you are right, "the dead know nothing":

Pro 9:13  A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.

Quote
Psa 146:3  Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.4  His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

You can see that after a carnal truth as it relates to physical death and the body returning to dust and the spirit to God.

You can also see it after a spiritual truth as it relates to man who was formed "out of the dust of the ground", in that it takes "the breath of life" to make Adam/man "a LIVING soul" .... and "the soul that sinneth, IT SHALL DIE".

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Quote
Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

The same here; you can see that after a carnal truth, as it related to physical death or you can see it after a spiritual truth as it relates to "the body of this death" whose THROAT IS "an open sepulcher".

QuoteEcc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Again, you can see that after a carnal truth as it relates to physical death or you can see it after a spiritual truth as it related to THE NIGHT/DARKNESS in which we walk:

Joh 9:3-5 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Quote
Joh 11:24  Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."  Notice it does not say on his last day! Just like Job said...

And Jesus responded:

Joh 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

QuoteJob 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Same as above, how might we understand that as a spiritual truth, rather than a carnal one? Does man have to be dead physically to "lie down" and "not rise" UNTIL the heavens are no longer (the creation of a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH  = A NEW CREATION, created IN CHRIST)?

QuoteIndeed... Paul knew of the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul...  2Ti 2:18  men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Peter confirms...nothing changed with Jesus' ressurection

No one here has said that the resurrection is past. Jesus Christ, who IS, WAS, and IS TO COME ((is)) THE RESURRECTION.

Quote2Pe 3:4  They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."

We are also told to LOOK for His appearing! As He comes "as a thief in the night"... TO THOSE WHO SLEEP.

If we were to say that "it is past" then where is THE HOPE for those who still "sleep"?

QuoteWe must wait...

We "wait" for Christ to be formed IN US..... each man in his own order.

That doesn't mean that Abraham, who walked IN FAITH, is still "waiting".

QuoteJoh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.  That means no one!

We don't ascend... the kingdom of God is within!!

Only Christ, who first descended, ascended into heaven. And it is not MAN who "ascended and descends" but THE ANGELS.

Gen 28:12  And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

Joh 1:51  And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Who are "the angels"?

(Paul was received as one.  :angel5:)

Quote1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  How can the dead rise if they are in heaven? Note it reads dead, not body!

And who are "the dead"? Who did Christ say would be gathered first?

Quote"The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21).

Are you saying the believers do not HAVE eternal life (NOW)?

QuoteThis resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body.

The flesh profits NOTHING.

QuotePaul speaks of the resurrection not 'of the body' but 'of the dead.'

Amen! God GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases him and to each seed its own body.

(Who are "the dead"?)

Quote
This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man.... Thus the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul.

It is THIS MORTAL that must "put on" IMMORTALITY, that ONLY CHRIST has.

But it is NOT about be "unclothed"; it is about being CLOTHED UPON!

2Co 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.



Remember "the soul that sinneth, it shall die?


James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


God breathed the breath of life into Adam making him A LIVING (chay) SOUL (nehpesh).

A "nephesh" (soul) is A BREATHING CREATURE.

Why would God need to breath "the breath of life" into A BREATHING CREATURE to make him "a LIVING soul"?

Because man is not "created" (in the image and likeness OF GOD) UNTIL God sends forth HIS SPIRIT and "renewth the face of the earth":

Psa 104:30  Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

This is seen ALLEGORICALLY in Genesis with Adam, when God breaths the breath of life into Adam's nostril to make him "a LIVING soul".

QuoteThe Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus' Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great."  Quote taken from the studies of  Dr. Paul Althaus


Paul

The DAY of the Lord has to do with TODAY, when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts. Then we pass from death (THE NIGHT/DARKNESS = which is as YESTERDAY, when it is past) unto LIFE (THE DAY/LIGHT) becoming "children of the resurrection".

That ((is)) THE HOPE! The hope OF ETERNAL LIFE (Christ IN YOU).

Chris

1Co 15:29  Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

how can one be baptized (death/resurr) for the dead (tares), if the dead (tares) were raised first?  

how can one be a firstfruit if the dead (tares) were first?

how can they (tares) obtain mercy because of our mercy (firstfruits) if they were shown mercy first?? 

or are you "internalizing" all of this, and the tares are not "individuals", non believers but rather "mindsets"? 

Quote from: Zeek on January 14, 2010, 06:57:21 AM
1Co 15:29  Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

how can one be baptized (death/resurr) for the dead (tares), if the dead (tares) were raised first?  

I am not sure what you are asking, but it is "the dead" who are baptized. The question is why? If the dead are not raised?

Are they not raised?

Quote
how can one be a firstfruit if the dead (tares) were first?

Again, I am not sure what you are asking, but Jesus Christ is the first-fruit. We (believers) are a type of first-fruits... but even believers were once "dead" (walking in darkness, children of the wicked one, etc)

Quote
how can they (tares) obtain mercy because of our mercy (firstfruits) if they were shown mercy first??

Who was "shown mercy first"? We are ALL "tares" (dead) until all that "hay, wood and stubble" is BURNED UP!

Quote
or are you "internalizing" all of this, and the tares are not "individuals", non believers but rather "mindsets"?  

Both.

The wheat and the tares "grow together" ~IN THE SAME FIELD~

As an internal application, we all have both "wheat" AND "tares" growing together in these 'earthen vessels'. There is the outward man (natural/tare) and the inward man (wheat).

As an external application, it is not until that outward man (natural man / flesh / tare) DECREASES and the inward man (spiritual man / spirit / wheat) INCREASED that "THE WHEAT" can shine forth in the kingdom of God.

Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 15, 2010, 02:50:42 AM
Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

HI Lee, I used David in the title because of the specific passage about him, but I am not talking only about David. Nor do I believe that the saints were in the grave until after Christ was resurrection.

Now, when you say that the saints rose with Christ and went into the city are you saying that they were in the graves (asleep and awaiting their resurrection) until Christ was resurrected or are you talking only about their bodies? 

Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2010, 03:56:07 AM
Hi Paul.  How do you understand the following?  I'm not sure what it means.   :dontknow:     Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 21:1  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

I don't really understand it, but it conforms with Job. Job some how spoke the truth.

Quote from: Pierac on January 15, 2010, 03:21:41 AM

Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2010, 03:56:07 AM
Hi Paul.  How do you understand the following?  I'm not sure what it means.   :dontknow:     Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 21:1  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

I don't really understand it, but it conforms with Job. Job some how spoke the truth.

So you see that as still future? Do you take that literally (as in a new physical creation)?

Hi all,

Is there an actual tomb where the body of David lays? I have never heard of one.
Maybe David was a "type and shadow" which was "laid in the ground" when Christ came??

Any thoughts would be GREATLY appreciated!

Blessings,
Brian

sacred-destinations.com -  "The Tomb of David is a much-revered site on Mount Zion in Jerusalem that has been variously owned and jealously guarded by Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout its history. Today it is a Jewish holy site.

Despite this site's long association with King David, it is highly unlikely that this is actually his burial place. The Bible records that David was buried on the eastern hill in the City of David (1 Kings 2:10), which is on the other side of Jerusalem."


jewishvirtuallibrary.org -    "According to the Bible, David was buried in the "City of David" presumably in the southeast of the present Siloam area (I Kings 2:10). Traditionally the later kings of the Davidic dynasty were also buried there and the Bible refers to the "sepulchers of the sons of David" (II Chron. 32:33), whose site was still known in the time of Nehemiah (Neh. 3:16). The tombs were in Jerusalem, but were never touched (Tos. B. B. 1:11). According to Josephus, Herod broke into David's tomb to rob it, but when he tried to go into the inner chamber tongues of fire shot out (Jos., Ant., 16:7:1). The site is also mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 2:29).

The tomb of David was probably destroyed at the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt (135 C.E.), and afterward the exact location of the site was forgotten. However, various sites were suggested by popular traditions over the ages and the one which became generally accepted was the place now called Mt. Zion. This tradition is about 1,000 years old..."

Here is an article you might find interesting. I don't know how accurate it all is but it makes pretty good sense.

The Location and Future Discovery of King David's Tomb
http://www.askelm.com/temple/t061001.htm

CHB

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 15, 2010, 02:50:42 AM
Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

Did Lazarus live forever or die a second time? I see no scripture saying he died again, yet many have no trouble believing he did? Why?

Read your verse again in context... they did not rise with Christ, but at His death.

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (Ie. Jesus Died!)
Mat 27:51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; (Raised from the dead at the death of Jesus!) Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Mat 27:54  Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

There is only one first born from the dead!  Jesus never returned to the grave like Lazarus and the others... He is the first born of God's new creation! The many bodies of the saints were raised at Jesus' death and appeared only after his resurrection.  Do you see the importance of this?  Jesus rose 3 days later so they can not be the first born of the dead because Jesus is... therefore they were not raised to immortality.

Paul

Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 03:23:49 AM

Quote from: Pierac on January 15, 2010, 03:21:41 AM

Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2010, 03:56:07 AM
Hi Paul.  How do you understand the following?  I'm not sure what it means.   :dontknow:     Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 21:1  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

I don't really understand it, but it conforms with Job. Job some how spoke the truth.

So you see that as still future? Do you take that literally (as in a new physical creation)?

Chris,

How did Jesus teach you to pray?

Mat 6:9  "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10  'Your kingdom come.

Why would Jesus teach you to pray for something to come if it's already here?  Jesus is still calling out the few the reign in the future. All to be raised in the last day or day of the Lord! :2c:

Paul

Quote from: Pierac on January 16, 2010, 05:18:58 AM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 15, 2010, 02:50:42 AM
Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

Did Lazarus live forever or die a second time? I see no scripture saying he died again, yet many have no trouble believing he did? Why?

Read your verse again in context... they did not rise with Christ, but at His death.

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (Ie. Jesus Died!)
Mat 27:51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; (Raised from the dead at the death of Jesus!) Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Mat 27:54  Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

There is only one first born from the dead!  Jesus never returned to the grave like Lazarus and the others... He is the first born of God's new creation! The many bodies of the saints were raised at Jesus' death and appeared only after his resurrection.  Do you see the importance of this?  Jesus rose 3 days later so they can not be the first born of the dead because Jesus is... therefore they were not raised to immortality.

Paul

Paul, you first say that no Scriptures prove Lazarus stayed alive or was put back in the ground in death, then you quote that JC never stayed dead or in the ground of earth "Like Lazarus". so you found the scripture the put him back in the ground??? 

Then you quote that "no one rose from the dead before JC (well into eternal life anyway), but Scriptures do say that there was risen bodies of saints before JC...???  Matt. 17:3 Moses and others before Resurrection day.

and as for the Lords Prayer: I see it as this, JC taught them to Pray "thy" kingdom come. ((((   Before He Rose from the dead    )))) He did this to fulfill the pryor promises in Scripture of bringing them a kingdom ruled by a Christ. and not a Kingdom ruled by a Moses. Law-vs.-God's Grace. The Anointed.  Israel's Kingdom did come, and it forever will be ruled by one Son of God, although you and I know that they have not and mostlikely will never except Him, (real hard hearted )

And Paul, it don't matter about those saints rising "after" JC's Resurrection, but what does matter is that "THE SAINTS DID RISE WITH JC... AND I HAVE NOT PROBLEM BELIEVING THAT """""DAVID IS ONE OF THEM""""""  Meet of this threat....

Lee Damboise II

Quote from: Pierac on January 16, 2010, 05:18:58 AM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 15, 2010, 02:50:42 AM
Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

Did Lazarus live forever or die a second time? I see no scripture saying he died again, yet many have no trouble believing he did? Why?

Read your verse again in context... they did not rise with Christ, but at His death.

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (Ie. Jesus Died!)
Mat 27:51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; (Raised from the dead at the death of Jesus!) Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Mat 27:54  Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

There is only one first born from the dead!  Jesus never returned to the grave like Lazarus and the others... He is the first born of God's new creation! The many bodies of the saints were raised at Jesus' death and appeared only after his resurrection.  Do you see the importance of this?  Jesus rose 3 days later so they can not be the first born of the dead because Jesus is... therefore they were not raised to immortality.

Paul

Why do you divide verses 52 and 53 from 54? 52 and 53 say that the tombs were opened and the dead were raised and 54 goes on to say that they came out of the graves.... AFTER Christ was resurrected?

You think that the tombs were opened and the dead raised when Christ DIED and then just stayed in their graves until after Christ was resurrected?

Besides, you are looking at Jesus being "the firstfruits of them that slept" only after a NATURAL truth, as it relates to His PHYSICAL BODY.

Jesus Christ is "the firstfruits of them that slept" because Jesus Christ (the Word of God; the incorruptible SEED) is He THROUGH?BY WHOM we "are" born again and pass from life unto death. That SEED is planted WITHIN US.

It is the same see BY WHICH Abraham walked IN FAITH and passed FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE, long before that 'seed' was "made flesh".

The "grave" that needs to be OPENED is "the body of this death" whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... SET ON FIRE OF HELL".

Is it not?

Quote from: Pierac on January 16, 2010, 05:35:39 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 03:23:49 AM

Quote from: Pierac on January 15, 2010, 03:21:41 AM

Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2010, 03:56:07 AM
Hi Paul.  How do you understand the following?  I'm not sure what it means.   :dontknow:     Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 21:1  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

I don't really understand it, but it conforms with Job. Job some how spoke the truth.

So you see that as still future? Do you take that literally (as in a new physical creation)?

Chris,

How did Jesus teach you to pray?

Mat 6:9  "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 'Your kingdom come.

Why would Jesus teach you to pray for something to come if it's already here?  Jesus is still calling out the few the reign in the future. All to be raised in the last day or day of the Lord! :2c:

Paul

Are you claiming that the kingdom of God is NOT "within" and that it DOES COME "with observation", Paul?

Just because the kingdom is "here" doesn't mean that we have ENTERED INTO HIS REST, now does it?

So, how did Jesus teach 'me' to pray?  :laughing7:

How did Jesus teach US ALL to pray, Paul?  :winkgrin:

Just 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10  'Your kingdom come"?

How about the rest of the prayer?

Thy will be done IN EARTH, AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

When shall we forgive our debtors? When do we suffer temptations? Is that not NOW, as we walk in THIS world?

If so, then what is the difference between that which "in the earth" and that which is "in heaven"?

Was Adam not FIRST FORMED "out of the dust of the ground"? Is this treasure (CHRIST) not hidden "in EARTHEN vessels"?

Who is it that was called "a tiller of the ground"? And upon "what" does satan feast?

Adam was given dominion over THE EARTH. But Jesus Christ, of whom Adam was a figure, has dominion IN HEAVEN and is Lord OF ALL. Right?

So how is Christ's will done IN THE EARTH ~as~ IN HEAVEN?

Who resides "in the heavens" and how do they "get there"?

Pro 15:24  The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.

Jesus said:

Joh 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

He also said:

Joh 12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Luk 12:49  I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

You speak of "a thousand years" and associate it only with "the reign of Christ" and yet it is also associated with a reign OF DEATH. As it is not associated only with "THE DAY of the Lord" but also with THE NIGHT (which is "as YESTERDAY when it is PAST").

God had a covenant with both THE NIGHT and THE DAY.

One (THE DAY) He leads IN THE PILLAR OF A CLOUD

The other (THE NIGHT) He leads IN A PILLAR OF FIRE.  

Those who sleep (and to whom Christ comes, as a thief IN THE NIGHT) are "of this world", they are "in the earth" (IN HELL BENEATH).

Those to whom He has already COME (having been formed IN THEM) are "not of this world" (any more), as they ARE ABOVE (seated with Christ IN HEAVEN; they ARE "the heavens"; they ARE "the clouds"; they ARE "the stars in His right hand"; they ARE "the angels of the churches").

That which IS SEEN (the Word of God made flesh, Christ's physical death and resurrection) are given to us "as examples" so that we can see that which IS NOT SEEN.  

In order to "rightly divide the word of truth", we have to be "comparing spiritual things WITH SPIRITUAL" and to do that we have to be looking upon "that which IS NOT SEEN".

We are to know NO MAN after the flesh - NOT EVEN CHRIST. (2 Cor 5:16)

Correct?

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 16, 2010, 12:36:34 PM
Paul, you first say that no Scriptures prove Lazarus stayed alive or was put back in the ground in death, then you quote that JC never stayed dead or in the ground of earth "Like Lazarus". so you found the scripture the put him back in the ground??? 

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 16, 2010, 12:36:34 PMThen you quote that "no one rose from the dead before JC (well into eternal life anyway), but Scriptures do say that there was risen bodies of saints before JC...???  Matt. 17:3 Moses and others before Resurrection day.

Lee,
Moses and Elijah did not actually appear with Jesus! It was a vision as confirmed by Jesus Himself!

Mat 17:9  As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."  

So Why the Vision?

The purpose of the vision of the transfiguration was to confirm to Peter, James, and John that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. The New American Bible states on this verse:
"Moses and Elijah represent respectively law and prophecy in the Old Testament and are linked to Mount Sinai. They now appear with Jesus as witnesses to the fulfillment of the law and prophets taking place in the person of Jesus as he appears in glory."

See you at the resurrection! :wink1:
Paul

Hi All,

This is one confusing thread, at least to me.   :scratchhead:  Some of what is being said my brain just can't absorb. Maybe I am thinking physical instead of spiritual I don't know? I cannot tell which is being talked about half the time.

I always believed that everyone who physically dies are still dead and will remain dead until Christ returns and resurrects them. I am speaking strictly physical here.  

Now spiritually speaking, we have died, was buried, have been resurrected and are now sitting in Christ in the heavens. Both of these things I believed for many years.

Just recently I have wondered,...{not fully convinced}...if there wasn't a physical resurrection in 70 AD where John and all the rest of the firstfruits were literally taken to heaven. Jesus said that John would remain until he came. I believe if this happened that John was the only apostle who was living at the time this happened. (Luke 9:27)  (John 21:22)

I don't believe that people who have literally died since then have gone on to heaven. I believe Christ will return and resurrect those who have died since the resurrection of 70 AD,...if there was one?  

(1Cor. 15:20- 23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits:

Notice, it says "Christ the firstfruits". Christ should be the FIRSTFRUIT, singular, not the firstfruits, plural.   What if it should read like this, {Christ, the firstfruits}.  Christ being the first resurrection and then the firstfruits such as all the saints, and apostles.

Who are the firstfruits anyway? Aren't they Israelites, or the Bride of Christ?  (James 1:18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that WE SHOULD BE A KIND OF FIRSTFRUITS, of his creatures. (Rev. 14:4) "these were redeemed from among men BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS UNTO GOD and to the Lamb".

Paul speaks in the present when he says "Then WE which are alive and remain" (1Thess. 4:15&17).

Just trying to make sense of it all.   :dontknow: :sigh:

CHB

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 16, 2010, 12:36:34 PM

Quote from: Pierac on January 16, 2010, 05:18:58 AM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 15, 2010, 02:50:42 AM
Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

Did Lazarus live forever or die a second time? I see no scripture saying he died again, yet many have no trouble believing he did? Why?

Read your verse again in context... they did not rise with Christ, but at His death.

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (Ie. Jesus Died!)
Mat 27:51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; (Raised from the dead at the death of Jesus!) Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Mat 27:54  Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

There is only one first born from the dead!  Jesus never returned to the grave like Lazarus and the others... He is the first born of God's new creation! The many bodies of the saints were raised at Jesus' death and appeared only after his resurrection.  Do you see the importance of this?  Jesus rose 3 days later so they can not be the first born of the dead because Jesus is... therefore they were not raised to immortality.

Paul

Paul, you first say that no Scriptures prove Lazarus stayed alive or was put back in the ground in death, then you quote that JC never stayed dead or in the ground of earth "Like Lazarus". so you found the scripture the put him back in the ground???

Lee, your missing the context! Of course I have found scripture that puts Lazarus and the others back into the grave, but not by name or date!

Col 1:18  He (Jesus) is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

If any human was raised to immortality before Jesus... then Col 1:18 is a lie!


Paul

Quote from: Chris on January 16, 2010, 06:59:15 PM

Why do you divide verses 52 and 53 from 54? 52 and 53 say that the tombs were opened and the dead were raised and 54 goes on to say that they came out of the graves.... AFTER Christ was resurrected?

You think that the tombs were opened and the dead raised when Christ DIED and then just stayed in their graves until after Christ was resurrected?

First, I did not divide anything... Matthew did... It is very clear...


Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

It is quite clear, Jesus died, the veil of the temple was torn, the earth shook/rocks split, tombs opened and the saints who had fallen asleep were raised! All told per Matthew... not me!

Then Matthew continues... Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

I have no idea what they were doing for three days, but Matthew is clear... they were raised at Jesus' death... Not His resurrection. It's a documented fact!


Yet we know Jesus is the first born from the dead! The only one to be raised to immortatily!

Paul

Quote from: CHB on January 16, 2010, 09:44:09 PM
Who are the firstfruits anyway? Aren't they Israelites, or the Bride of Christ?  (James 1:18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that WE SHOULD BE A KIND OF FIRSTFRUITS, of his creatures. (Rev. 14:4) "these were redeemed from among men BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS UNTO GOD and to the Lamb".

Paul speaks in the present when he says "Then WE which are alive and remain" (1Thess. 4:15&17).

Just trying to make sense of it all.   :dontknow: :sigh:

CHB

The firstfruits are the chosen!

Mat 22:14  "For many are called, but few are chosen."

NASB  Joh 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS)  him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

CEV Joh 6:44  No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day.

Col 3:12  So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Net Eph 1:11  In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk  "we were appointed by lot."  The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

Only the chosen will reign with the Christ for a thousand years... Then the rest of the dead will rise!


Rev 20:4  Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 20:5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed



Paul

Quote from: Pierac on January 16, 2010, 09:59:12 PM

Quote from: Chris on January 16, 2010, 06:59:15 PM

Why do you divide verses 52 and 53 from 54? 52 and 53 say that the tombs were opened and the dead were raised and 54 goes on to say that they came out of the graves.... AFTER Christ was resurrected?

You think that the tombs were opened and the dead raised when Christ DIED and then just stayed in their graves until after Christ was resurrected?

First, I did not divide anything... Matthew did... It is very clear...


Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

It is quite clear, Jesus died, the veil of the temple was torn, the earth shook/rocks split, tombs opened and the saints who had fallen asleep were raised! All told per Matthew... not me!

Then Matthew continues... Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

I have no idea what they were doing for three days, but Matthew is clear... they were raised at Jesus' death... Not His resurrection. It's a documented fact!


Yet we know Jesus is the first born from the dead! The only one to be raised to immortatily!

Paul

A documented FACT? Many believe that ET is "a documented FACT", as well.  :dontknow:

That is not the only way that you can read that passage.

There seems to me to more than just one thought being expressed, Matthew even jumps BACK to what was a happening BEFORE Christ was even buried AFTER he speaks of those coming out of the grave AFTER HIS RESURRECTION.

So yes, it CAN be read the way you read it:

Mat 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And {THREE DAYS LATER} came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Or it CAN be read differently (the way I read it, which makes much more sense to me):

Mat 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; {AND THREE DAYS LATER} And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

But regardless of which is "correct", we are still talking about physical events here (things that are seen/temporal). So how do those PHYSICAL events point to SPIRITUAL TRUTHS since we are told that it is "after two days" that we are REVIVED and on "the third day" that we are RAISED UP?

Quote from: Pierac
If any human was raised to immortality before Jesus... then Col 1:18 is a lie!

At the time this was written only Christ had immortality. 

CHB

Christ is THE FIRST-FRUIT.

Christ is THE CHOSEN

Christ is THE ELECT of God.

Christ is THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE

It is by being found IN HIM that we REIGN (a thousand years) WITH HIM (in LIFE, in THE DAY of the Lord).

There is also "a thousand years" (it being TWICE TOLD) associated with a reign OF DEATH (YESTERDAY, the night when it is PAST) as well.

But it is all ONE DAY to the Lord.

That ONE DAY is divided between THE NIGHT (death, darkness, those who sleep) and THE DAY (life, light, those who have passed from death UNTO LIFE).

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

Being found IN CHRIST we are "a new creation", "new creatures" created IN HIM. And while some have FALLEN ASLEEP, those who LIVE and BELIEVE know the power OF HIS RESURRECTION and they shall reign WITH HIM "a thousand years" in THE DAY of the Lord.

it is ALL about JESUS CHRIST.

Those things that are written testify OF HIM.  :declare: :bowing: :cheerleader:

Quote from: CHB on January 16, 2010, 10:50:11 PM

Quote from: Pierac
If any human was raised to immortality before Jesus... then Col 1:18 is a lie!

At the time this was written only Christ had immortality. 

CHB

Yes, but it was written decades after Jesus' death... and many had already died "in Jesus Name."  Even Peter wrote...  decades after Jesus' death...  2Pe 3:4  They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."

You will not be ressurected until the last day!  

The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Christian Words and Christian Meanings, by John Burnaby (pp. 148, 149):

"Greek philosophers had argued that the dissolution which we call death happens to nothing but bodies, and that the souls of men are by their native constitution immortal. The Greek word for immortality occurs only once in the New Testament, and there it belongs to none but the King of Kings.... The immortality of the soul is no part of the Christian creed,  just as it is no part of Christian anthropology to divide soul and body and confine the real man, the essence of personality, to supposedly separable soul for which embodiment is imprisonment.... Jesus taught no doctrine of everlasting life for disembodied souls, such as no Jew loyal to the faith his fathers could have accepted or even understood. But Jewish belief was in the raising of the dead at the Last Day."

(Why then do churches constantly say that disembodied souls have gone to heaven or hell?)

Law and Grace, by Professor A. F. Knight (p. 79):
"In the Old Testament man is never considered to be a soul dwelling in a body, a soul that will one day be set free from the oppression of the body, at the death of that body, like a bird released from a cage. The Hebrews were not dualists in their understanding of God's world."


The protest of Justin Martyr against what later became orthodoxy, and remains so to this day, is no less incisive (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80):

"They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh. . . As in the case of a yoke of oxen, if one or other is loosed from the yoke, neither of them can plough alone; so neither can soul or body alone effect anything, if they be unyoked from their communion . . ." [i.e. the soul can have no separate existence]. For what is man but the reasonable animal composed of body and soul? Is the soul by itself man? No; but the soul of man. Would the body be called man? No; but it is called the body of man. If then neither of these is by itself man, but that which is made up of the two together is called man, and God has called man to life and resurrection, He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and body. . . Well, they say, the soul is incorruptible, being a part of God and inspired by Him. . . . Then what thanks are due to Him, and what manifestation of His power and goodness is it, if He purposed to save what is by nature saved. . . . but no thanks are due to one who saves what is his own; for this is to save himself. . . . How then did Christ raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body. . . . Why do we any longer endure those unbelieving arguments and fail to see that we are retrograding when we listen to such an argument as this: That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?"

Justin is here refuting the arguments of Gnosticism which denied the resurrection of the flesh. Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.


2Co 5:1  For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens... inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. (Without a body)

Paul

Paul, I don't believe you read my other post. I said "I don't believe we go on to heaven when we die". When I die physically I will stay in my tomb till I am resurrected, whenever that is. Spiritually I am sitting in Christ at this moment.

What I was saying was, could it be that there was a physical resurrection in the apostles time. All of the scriptures that were written like "Jesus only has immortality" and "no man has ascended up to heaven" would be true, because at the time this was written no man had ascended to heaven as yet.

What I am thinking is, all of the apostles were dead and in their graves, except for John when the resurrection occured. The resurrection hadn't passed when Paul wrote his epistles.

Does this make sense to any one?

CHB

Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2010, 12:26:32 AM


2Co 5:1  For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens... inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. (Without a body)

Paul

And how are you not taking that "out of context" when Paul clearly says that we DO NOT desire to be UNCLOTHED (take this EARTHLY tabernacle OFF), but CLOTHED UPON in order for MORTALITY to be swallowed up OF LIFE?

You quote Paul saying that if this EARTHLY tabernacle were dissolved that we would know that WE HAVE "a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" and then you seem to claim that we don't yet HAVE it, but we WAIT FOR IT, even if we have been CLOTHED UPON WITH IT?

Why?

It is not THIS MORTAL (that infers a living being, not a rotting corpse) who must "put on" IMMORTALITY?

What has any of that got to do with dying (physically = being UNCLOTHED) FIRST? And why would you say that if others do not see it as you do that we are saying that we go "with a body".:mshock:

There is A NATURAL BODY and there is A SPIRITUAL BODY and when it comes to that body that is REAPED (versus that which is SEWN = FLESH which PROFITS NOTHING), GOD GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases Him.

Why assume that we need this earthly body to pop out of a grave at some future date in order to "have" a body?

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2010, 01:38:54 AM

Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2010, 12:26:32 AM


2Co 5:1  For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens... inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. (Without a body)

Paul

And how are you not taking that "out of context" when Paul clearly says that we DO NOT desire to be UNCLOTHED (take this EARTHLY tabernacle OFF), but CLOTHED UPON in order for MORTALITY to be swallowed up OF LIFE?

You quote Paul saying that if this EARTHLY tabernacle were dissolved that we would know that WE HAVE "a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" and then you seem to claim that we don't yet HAVE it, but we WAIT FOR IT, even if we have been CLOTHED UPON WITH IT?

Why?

It is not THIS MORTAL (that infers a living being, not a rotting corpse) who must "put on" IMMORTALITY?

What has any of that got to do with dying (physically = being UNCLOTHED) FIRST? And why would you say that if others do not see it as you do that we are saying that we go "with a body".:mshock:

There is A NATURAL BODY and there is A SPIRITUAL BODY and when it comes to that body that is REAPED (versus that which is SEWN = FLESH which PROFITS NOTHING), GOD GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases Him.

Why assume that we need this earthly body to pop out of a grave at some future date in order to "have" a body?

Chris, I think you miss the whole point.

Perhaps, I can make my point better by asking you a few questions.  Your response will make my point.

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.  

If one is already with Jesus with our spiritual bodies upon our death, then whom are in the tombs?

Note that Paul does not want you to be uninformed!

1Th 4:13  But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.  For if we believe
that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and
remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them
in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

If you are already with Jesus at your death... Then who are the dead that will rise first?

Your finding yourself in bed with the church of today...  They still believe the
lie of  Satan...
Gen 3:4  The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!

The God of this world still rules... The King has not returned to claim his Kingdom! Make no mistake... Paul told you so you would not be uninformed...
and the dead in Christ will rise first!


Paul

Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2010, 03:38:16 AM

Chris, I think you miss the whole point.

Perhaps, I can make my point better by asking you a few questions.  Your response will make my point.

We'll see.   :winkgrin:

QuoteJohn 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.   

If one is already with Jesus with our spiritual bodies upon our death, then whom are in the tombs?

Perhaps the more relevant question is "what tombs"?

As the hour is not only "coming"; it NOW IS and he that hears IS PASSED from death UNTO LIFE (ie HAS eternal life).

Joh 5:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

As I pointed out already "the body of this death" that we live in is "full of dead men's bones" and its THROAT is "an open sepulcher".

QuoteNote that Paul does not want you to be uninformed!

1Th 4:13  But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

If you are already with Jesus at your death... Then who are the dead that will rise first?

If Jesus Christ said:

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Then you tell me, Paul:

WHO ARE "the dead in Christ" who shall RISE FIRST?

Then, perhaps, you can tell me (since you believe that I am so "uniformed") why Paul needed to COMFORT other BELIEVERS about "the dead in Christ" if those who were "dead" were BELIEVERS? Why would BELIEVERS be "grieving" for other BELIEVERS who have gone 'to sleep' (after a carnal truth, as you see it) before them?

Perhaps you might want to consider the possibility that Paul is talking about ALL OF THOSE WHO REMAIN... BOTH "the living" AND "the dead" (OF WHOM CHRIST IS LORD)?

Have you ever considered that? Or do you not consider WHY others might believe as they do before accusing them of being "uniformed"?  

QuoteYour finding yourself in bed with the church of today...  They still believe the lie of  Satan...

Gen 3:4  The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!

Well, while you accuse me of being in bed with the churches of today because (you say) I "believe the lie of the serpent", perhaps you aught to step back for a minute and consider the fact that THE JEWS accused JESUS CHRIST of "having a devil" FOR THE SAME REASON:

Joh 8:51-52 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Would you accuse JESUS of "having a devil", Paul?   :JCThink:

Would you accuse JESUS of "believing the lie of the serpent"?   :mshock:

You see Paul, what you fail to see is that which the Jews also failed to see (and what even I used to fail to see UNTIL someone else pointed it out TO ME  :thumbsup:); that THE SERPENT spoke concerning THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL - while Jesus Christ was speaking concerning THE TREE OF LIFE.

SAME WORDS!! ~ DIFFERENT TREE!!

Do you still believe that am siding with SATAN, Paul? (I sure HOPE NOT!! :declare:)

So now that we have established WHICH TREE Satan was referring to when he said "thou shalt not surely die", can you tell me if Adam died, when and how?

Do you believe that Adam was IMMORTAL? That PHYSICAL DEATH is the penalty for sin?  

If you do, then perhaps it is you who is "finding yourself in bed with the church of today".   :wink1:

If you do not and you believe that LIFE AND IMMORTALITY comes ONLY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST - THE LAST ADAM - then please do tell me what "death" it was that Adam (and all men) suffer due to sin? What "death" is it that Jesus Christ is "redeeming" us from?

Quote
The God of this world still rules... The King has not returned to claim his Kingdom! Make no mistake... Paul told you so you would not be uninformed...
and the dead in Christ will rise first!


Paul

Make no mistake Paul, I KNOW exactly who shall RISE FIRST.... THE DEAD/TARES!

I also know WHO "the dead" (the "tares") ARE.

I also know WHO Jesus sent TO REAP!

You see Paul, I used to agree WITH YOU until I realized WHO "the dead" really are.

Now if we can dispense with the insults, perhaps we can have a more productive conversation?  :flowerred:

Chris

Consider how Scripture here speaks.  The goal of not dying, of entering a higher realm in Christ is the one and only thing Paul is pursuing.  He considers it attainable.  Everything else is garbage to Him.

Philippians 3:7-15, 20-21 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
7 But things which were gain to me, these I have deemed a forfeit because of Christ.
8 But, to be sure, I am also deeming all to be a forfeit because of the superiority of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, because of Whom I forfeited all, and am deeming it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:
10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
12 Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front --
14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you.
20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
21 Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.

What I'm understanding from this is that the door to not dying has been open at least since Jesus died, rose victorious from the dead and ascended into glory, sending forth His Spirit into us to accomplish the same victory.  Whatever God does is by faith.  I expect some progressive series of words with enabling power to emerge into our consciousness.  Whether direct or through other vessels, it is God's own summons into a higher dimension in Christ.  It is possible this call remains in a place we can come into.  However it happens, it has to be available without respect of persons.  Whoever meets the qualifications may enter.  If all we can do is wait for some distant day, then  the book of Philippians is junk.

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2010, 06:05:15 AM
Make no mistake Paul, I KNOW exactly who shall RISE FIRST.... THE DEAD/TARES!

I also know WHO "the dead" (the "tares") ARE.

I also know WHO Jesus sent TO REAP!

You see Paul, I used to agree WITH YOU until I realized WHO "the dead" really are.

Now if we can dispense with the insults, perhaps we can have a more productive conversation?  :flowerred:

Chris

Sorry Chris,

You confused an observation with an insult!

All is of God! Including our specific beliefs!

If you see THE DEAD/TARES rising first! Then so shall it be for you! God's will be done for us both! To God be the glory!

See ya at the resurrection! :wink:

Paul

Quote from: reFORMer on January 17, 2010, 07:48:47 AM
Consider how Scripture here speaks. The goal of not dying, of entering a higher realm in Christ is the one and only thing Paul is pursuing.  He considers it attainable.  Everything else is garbage to Him.

We can read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where Paul is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ:

"And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord."

This is when Paul expects to be with the Lord, at the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ, not before then. Let us see another wonderful example of when Paul plans to be with Jesus. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 states:
"We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembly with him."

We can see that Paul expects the Thessalonians and himself to assemble with Christ at "His Coming."

Hey, but that's just my  :2c:

Paul

Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2010, 08:01:40 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2010, 06:05:15 AM
Make no mistake Paul, I KNOW exactly who shall RISE FIRST.... THE DEAD/TARES!

I also know WHO "the dead" (the "tares") ARE.

I also know WHO Jesus sent TO REAP!

You see Paul, I used to agree WITH YOU until I realized WHO "the dead" really are.

Now if we can dispense with the insults, perhaps we can have a more productive conversation?  :flowerred:

Chris

Sorry Chris,

You confused an observation with an insult!

All is of God! Including our specific beliefs!

If you see THE DEAD/TARES rising first! Then so shall it be for you! God's will be done for us both! To God be the glory!

See ya at the resurrection! :wink:

Paul

if the tares rise first, then that makes them the first fruits, the few chosen. 

Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2010, 08:01:40 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2010, 06:05:15 AM
Make no mistake Paul, I KNOW exactly who shall RISE FIRST.... THE DEAD/TARES!

I also know WHO "the dead" (the "tares") ARE.

I also know WHO Jesus sent TO REAP!

You see Paul, I used to agree WITH YOU until I realized WHO "the dead" really are.

Now if we can dispense with the insults, perhaps we can have a more productive conversation?  :flowerred:

Chris

Sorry Chris,

You confused an observation with an insult!

All is of God! Including our specific beliefs!

If you see THE DEAD/TARES rising first! Then so shall it be for you! God's will be done for us both! To God be the glory!

See ya at the resurrection! :wink:

Paul

So shall it be, not because I said so but because Jesus Christ said so:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

To maintain your understanding of who "the dead in Christ" are you have to believe that Paul contradicts THE LORD, whereas I do not.

Jesus Christ is Lord of both the LIVING and the DEAD; we are all found IN HIM, having been reconciled to God through HIS BODY.

How can "the wheat" (the elect) EVER be "gathered first" when the FIRST thing that needs to happen for one to pass from DEATH unto LIFE is for all that "hay, wood and stubble" to be BURNED UP?

You may still be waiting/watching for Christ to come, as those who sleep are told to, but I believe Christ IS COME - without sin unto salvation FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE.

And those who LIVE and BELIEVE shall NEVER DIE.

So I find it rather ironic that you call me uniformed and accuse me of agreeing with the serpent because I agree WITH CHRIST  - call it just "an observation" (rather than see it for the INSULT that it is) and then refuse to address what I have posted concerning THE SCRIPTURES because you are so secure in your own "rightness".

Thank the Lord that I did not act as you have with me to the person who questioned my standing ( where you are now ) a few years ago and I was willing to lend them an ear and hear what they had to say and actually prayerfully and thoughtfully consider it, as I waited on the Lord to give me a better understanding.

   

Quote from: Zeek on January 17, 2010, 04:32:13 PM

if the tares rise first, then that makes them the first fruits, the few chosen.  

How? Where you born a "wheat"? Born righteous?  

You seem to want to look at 'individuals' as "wheat" and "tares" and yet want to ignore the fact that we are ALL ~by nature~ CHILDREN OF WRATH (tares).

It is not UNTIL "the chosen" ARE "chosen" that that which is not fit for the kingdom is BURNED UP.

It is the same for everyone, we must ALL pass THROUGH THE FIRE. Or do you see some 'other' way?

Quote from: reFORMer on January 17, 2010, 07:48:47 AM
Consider how Scripture here speaks.  The goal of not dying, of entering a higher realm in Christ is the one and only thing Paul is pursuing.  He considers it attainable.  Everything else is garbage to Him.

Philippians 3:7-15, 20-21 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
7 But things which were gain to me, these I have deemed a forfeit because of Christ.
8 But, to be sure, I am also deeming all to be a forfeit because of the superiority of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, because of Whom I forfeited all, and am deeming it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:
10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
12 Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front --
14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you.
20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
21 Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.

What I'm understanding from this is that the door to not dying has been open at least since Jesus died, rose victorious from the dead and ascended into glory, sending forth His Spirit into us to accomplish the same victory.  Whatever God does is by faith.  I expect some progressive series of words with enabling power to emerge into our consciousness.  Whether direct or through other vessels, it is God's own summons into a higher dimension in Christ.  It is possible this call remains in a place we can come into.  However it happens, it has to be available without respect of persons.  Whoever meets the qualifications may enter.  If all we can do is wait for some distant day, then  the book of Philippians is junk.

Hey reFORMer!

What began to stand out to me about that passage as my understanding of all of this began to change was that I used to use this passage to prove that Paul was saying that he "had not already attained unto the resurrection of the dead".

But what I was not seeing is that this is not what he is saying at all, but that he "counts not himself" and continue to strives for it "as though" he has not already attained unto it. And he tells "as many AS BE PERFECT" to "walk by the same rule".

So why would Paul call others "perfect" and yet "not count" HIMSELF?  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: Pierac on January 17, 2010, 08:11:51 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on January 17, 2010, 07:48:47 AM
Consider how Scripture here speaks. The goal of not dying, of entering a higher realm in Christ is the one and only thing Paul is pursuing.  He considers it attainable.  Everything else is garbage to Him.

We can read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where Paul is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ:

"And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord."

This is when Paul expects to be with the Lord, at the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ, not before then. Let us see another wonderful example of when Paul plans to be with Jesus. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 states:
"We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembly with him."

We can see that Paul expects the Thessalonians and himself to assemble with Christ at "His Coming."

Hey, but that's just my  :2c:

Paul

Christ comes "the second time" unto them that look for Him and he "comes" AS THE COMFORTER.

He said: I will not leave you comfortless, I WILL COME TO YOU.

What Paul is talking about to the Thessalonians with regard to "the dead in Christ" rising first is "THE END" when ALL WHO REMAIN (both THE LIVING and THE DEAD) shall be gathered unto the Lord and it is "the dead" (THE TARES, who also "remain") who shall rise first. Then those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together WITH THEM, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR and then we shall ALL "ever be with the Lord".

Where does Paul say that they will now rule with Christ in a physical kingdom on this physical earth for "a thousand years" to be followed by "another resurrection" for the wicked/unjust/tares?

And, again, why would Paul need to COMFORT BELIEVERS who already looked forward to "the resurrection of the dead" concerning "the dead" if those "dead in Christ" were physically dead BELIEVERS?

Clearly you are looking at this from only a physical perspective, but that which is seen is meant to reveal to us that which is not seen. The fact that Paul did not "count" himself and almost always included himself among those to whom he was preaching the COMING of the Lord, should not cause us to ignore the fact that Paul bore witness of others, just as Christ bore witness of John the Baptist (who also did not bear witness OF HIMSELF).

It is not UNTIL Christ is formed WITHIN US that we are "delivered of the child" and "saved" and this happens "at His coming" (CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY). It is those who LIVE and BELIEVE who "rule and reign with Christ" IN LIFE over the kingdom, becoming labourers in the field (the field was WHITE, ALREADY TO HARVEST, even ~ 2000 years ago).

THEN COMETH THE END, when "those who remain" (both the living and the dead) still need to be gathered.

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2010, 07:04:20 PM

Quote from: Zeek on January 17, 2010, 04:32:13 PM

if the tares rise first, then that makes them the first fruits, the few chosen.  

How? Where you born a "wheat"? Born righteous?  

You seem to want to look at 'individuals' as "wheat" and "tares" and yet want to ignore the fact that we are ALL ~by nature~ CHILDREN OF WRATH (tares).

It is not UNTIL "the chosen" ARE "chosen" that that which is not fit for the kingdom is BURNED UP.

It is the same for everyone, we must ALL pass THROUGH THE FIRE. Or do you see some 'other' way?

I don't see all "children of wrath" going through the wrath of God.  There is clearly imo; those who are not destined to wrath.  Those who are not hurt of the fire, indicating there are those who are. 

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.



I understand your view (i think), but think that this "spiritual" view, is not how Paul, James, John were teaching it.  And if I understand you correctly, the view of an "us versus them" approach; that I believe Paul and gang were preaching; would be definede by you and many here as carnal teaching, or "natural", because it didn't look inwardly; applying the "us and them" as "inward/outward men". 



I was thinking more of your view yesterday as I was driving; and I wondered if you still see your self as mortal putting on immortality?  and if being fully "immortal" is possible while you are literally living? (ie: before your physical death). 

Can you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul in this literal/physical life?  And if you receive the end of your faith as attainable, would the "fires" stop, as there would be no more faith to be tried.  What to you, would be "immortal"?  How will you know you are there?  Have you ever met anyone "immortal" while physically alive?  I think buddhists would say it is possible, what they call enlightenment. 

Quote from: Zeek on January 17, 2010, 08:22:03 PM

I don't see all "children of wrath" going through the wrath of God. 

So you can be "a child of wrath" without having the wrath of God abide upon you?

QuoteThere is clearly imo; those who are not destined to wrath.  Those who are not hurt of the fire, indicating there are those who are. 

AMEN!! But who is it that is not appointed to this condemnation? Isn't it those who believe? Those who have PASSED from death unto life? So how did they PASS from death unto life? Was it not through "this fiery trial which is to try you"?

Why do not see "this fiery trial which is to try you" as "the lake of fire" (into which the UNBELIEVING - as well as those who will have their PART with the unbelieving - are cast)?

QuoteJoh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Amen, but the one who HAS "eternal life" did not always have it; he was once a child OF WRATH. Did not the wrath of God abide upon him BEFORE he "believed"?

QuoteRom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

And what man that you know of, besides Christ, has not at one time held the truth in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS?

QuoteRom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Again, who has not HAD a hard and impenitent heart? Only to ONE DAY see "the righteous judgment of God" (which is TO SHOW MERCY AND COMPASSION)?

QuoteRom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We ARE saved FROM WRATH through HIM... when we PASS from death unto life. The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may DEPART FROM HELL BENEATH.

We are "of this world" (born of only of WATER) long before we are BORN AGAIN  (by the spirit of God). And until we are born both of water AND spirit we are "by nature" THE CHILDREN OF WRATH. Are we not?

What do you associate "the wrath of God" with that you want so desperately to spare "some" from it, while condemning "the rest" to it?   

QuotePsa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Who are "the righteous" and who are "the ungodly"? Were "the righteous" NEVER "ungodly"?

God divides between THE FLESH and THE SPIRIT, between THE NATURAL MAN and THE SPIRITUAL MAN, between THE VESSELS OF WRATH and THE VESSELS OF MERCY.   

It is "the natural man" that must perish and it upon "him" that the wrath of God abides.

QuoteI understand your view (i think), but think that this "spiritual" view, is not how Paul, James, John were teaching it.  And if I understand you correctly, the view of an "us versus them" approach; that I believe Paul and gang were preaching; would be definede by you and many here as carnal teaching, or "natural", because it didn't look inwardly; applying the "us and them" as "inward/outward men". 

One shows the other. That which IS SEEN, shows us that which IS NOT SEEN.

Which are we told to be looking upon?

So, yes, it is "carnal thinking" to see ONLY the natural; but you seem to see both but still want to focus on the natural anyway. Why? How is that "rightly dividing the word of truth" BY "comparing SPIRITUAL things WITH SPIRITUAL"?

QuoteI was thinking more of your view yesterday as I was driving; and I wondered if you still see your self as mortal putting on immortality?  and if being fully "immortal" is possible while you are literally living? (ie: before your physical death). 

Are you asking me if I believe there are immortal humans? No! The flesh profits nothing; the body returns to dust. Men are MORTAL. But it is still THIS MORTAL that must "put on" immortality. It is about being "clothed" (with Christ, who ONLY has immortality). It is THE SPIRIT that is quickened, not the flesh. 

QuoteCan you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul in this literal/physical life? 

YES!! Jesus Christ IS the end of our faith and the salvation of our souls.

QuoteAnd if you receive the end of your faith as attainable, would the "fires" stop, as there would be no more faith to be tried. 

I guess that might depend on what you think "receiving the end of your faith" is. As receiving Jesus Christ is to receive the end of our faith one could say yes. However, we know that "babes in Christ" are "yet carnal" as Christ has not yet been "formed" in them and "the body" growing into "the head" is a process, a growing/maturing process, that might not ever be "complete" in this life as not all "go on unto perfection". Do some? Perhaps, Paul seemed to believe so, as he addressed those who are "already perfect", but perhaps he (as God) was calling those things that aren't as though they are. Am I perfect? A thousand times NO! But then what does being "perfect" mean?

QuoteWhat to you, would be "immortal"?  How will you know you are there?  Have you ever met anyone "immortal" while physically alive?  I think buddhists would say it is possible, what they call enlightenment. 

Men are MORTAL. The flesh profits nothing; the body returns to dust. We are not made "immortal" in the flesh, but through the spirit, as it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened.

Quote from: Chris on January 17, 2010, 09:48:56 PM

Quote from: Zeek on January 17, 2010, 08:22:03 PM

I don't see all "children of wrath" going through the wrath of God.  

So you can be "a child of wrath" without having the wrath of God abide upon you?

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Yes, I believe so.  The day of wrath, as spoken in the new testament times; is a future day imo.  and when that day came, those chosen escaped the wrath of God.  Like Noah, they were elevated/risen above, never to perish.    

QuoteThere is clearly imo; those who are not destined to wrath.  Those who are not hurt of the fire, indicating there are those who are.  

AMEN!! But who is it that is not appointed to this condemnation? Isn't it those who believe? Those who have PASSED from death unto life? So how did they PASS from death unto life? Was it not through "this fiery trial which is to try you"?

no, i see it as through faith.  There is a fiery trial of one's faith, but that imo is not the wrath of God.  That is a blessing being bestowed upon his son's (not bastards).  The wrath of God is imo, the fire upon those who refuse to live by the faith of Christ, who have They are the one's who    (Rom 1:21)  when they knew God (first), they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(as per Romans 11). There portion is a shame that won't be forgotten.  I believe they are the wicked talked about in Psalm 11.  

Why do not see "this fiery trial which is to try you" as "the lake of fire" (into which the UNBELIEVING - as well as those who will have their PART with the unbelieving - are cast)?

because i see the lake of fire, as a shaming for those who have not put on immortality (clothed in Christ)

QuoteJoh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Amen, but the one who HAS "eternal life" did not always have it; he was once a child OF WRATH. Did not the wrath of God abide upon him BEFORE he "believed"?

No, because they were washed with the Spirit, given eyes to see prior to the day of wrath.

QuoteRom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

And what man that you know of, besides Christ, has not at one time held the truth in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS?

Yes, a child of wrath, that prior to the day of wrath, but had their scales peeled off, their ears opened, and were washed in the spirit; and passed the test prior to the end of the old covenant world.  Joh 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

QuoteRom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Again, who has not HAD a hard and impenitent heart? Only to ONE DAY see "the righteous judgment of God" (which is TO SHOW MERCY AND COMPASSION)?

see above

QuoteRom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We ARE saved FROM WRATH through HIM... when we PASS from death unto life. The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may DEPART FROM HELL BENEATH.

I thought you were saying we were saved or passed from death unto life because of the wrath of God upon us.  In other words, I thot you died to the old man because of the wrath of God.  I may have misunderstood you.

We are "of this world" (born of only of WATER) long before we are BORN AGAIN  (by the spirit of God). And until we are born both of water AND spirit we are "by nature" THE CHILDREN OF WRATH. Are we not?

by nature, yes; but appointed to not have to go through it.  

What do you associate "the wrath of God" with that you want so desperately to spare "some" from it, while condemning "the rest" to it?  

I want to believe what the word teaches, believers are not appointed to wrath.  I don't see the wrath of God as for believers.  It is shaming upon those who don't believe; but it has a positive outcome; the end of that old world.

QuotePsa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Who are "the righteous" and who are "the ungodly"? Were "the righteous" NEVER "ungodly"?

as above

God divides between THE FLESH and THE SPIRIT, between THE NATURAL MAN and THE SPIRITUAL MAN, between THE VESSELS OF WRATH and THE VESSELS OF MERCY.    

It is "the natural man" that must perish and it upon "him" that the wrath of God abides.  

but they move on from death to life; before the day of wrath.  

QuoteI understand your view (i think), but think that this "spiritual" view, is not how Paul, James, John were teaching it.  And if I understand you correctly, the view of an "us versus them" approach; that I believe Paul and gang were preaching; would be definede by you and many here as carnal teaching, or "natural", because it didn't look inwardly; applying the "us and them" as "inward/outward men".  

One shows the other. That which IS SEEN, shows us that which IS NOT SEEN.


Which are we told to be looking upon?

So, yes, it is "carnal thinking" to see ONLY the natural; but you seem to see both but still want to focus on the natural anyway. Why? How is that "rightly dividing the word of truth" BY "comparing SPIRITUAL things WITH SPIRITUAL"?

because imo, the letters written by Paul and gang, were not to be interpreted IMO as you see it.  He was not speaking in parables to them or allegorically, or of literal truths so they could apply it to their "inner/outer man".  He was speaking of literal things about to happen, yet they were spiritual.  They were huge spiritual applications; as the old wordl was about to vanish. For me, I now see those prophecies fulfilled; and so as we live in this world of "all things new"; we can take inner applications from scripture and apply them.  To me, this is what you are doing.  To me, many religions around the world repeat the same message, new agers same, mystical christians same.  It is because imo; we continue to see ourselves as mortal needing to put on immortality.  always hoping for something; always attempting to clothe ourselves with immortality.  It's forward thinking imo.  It's hope deferred; rather than desire fulfilled; the tree of LIFE.

QuoteI was thinking more of your view yesterday as I was driving; and I wondered if you still see your self as mortal putting on immortality?  and if being fully "immortal" is possible while you are literally living? (ie: before your physical death).  

Are you asking me if I believe there are immortal humans? No! The flesh profits nothing; the body returns to dust. Men are MORTAL. But it is still THIS MORTAL that must "put on" immortality. It is about being "clothed" (with Christ, who ONLY has immortality). It is THE SPIRIT that is quickened, not the flesh.  

So I take it, you see it as a "literal body that returns to dust, that is mortal; and must literally die before all is fulfilled in you????

QuoteCan you receive the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul in this literal/physical life?  

YES!! Jesus Christ IS the end of our faith and the salvation of our souls.

but that still doesn't make you immortal??

QuoteAnd if you receive the end of your faith as attainable, would the "fires" stop, as there would be no more faith to be tried.

I guess that might depend on what you think "receiving the end of your faith" is. As receiving Jesus Christ is to receive the end of our faith one could say yes. However, we know that "babes in Christ" are "yet carnal" as Christ has not yet been "formed" in them and "the body" growing into "the head" is a process, a growing/maturing process, that might not ever be "complete" in this life as not all "go on unto perfection". Do some? Perhaps, Paul seemed to believe so, as he addressed those who are "already perfect", but perhaps he (as God) was calling those things that aren't as though they are. Am I perfect? A thousand times NO! But then what does being "perfect" mean?

QuoteWhat to you, would be "immortal"?  How will you know you are there?  Have you ever met anyone "immortal" while physically alive?  I think buddhists would say it is possible, what they call enlightenment.  

Men are MORTAL. The flesh profits nothing; the body returns to dust. We are not made "immortal" in the flesh, but through the spirit, as it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened.

sorry for how i wrote back to you, i dont' understand the quote buttons.  

I enjoy discussing this, but please know that it is just that; discussion.  I really am not "attached" to any view; as I KNOW, no matter what my view; we are BELOVED; and that is enough.

:)

Quote from: Zeek on January 17, 2010, 10:56:15 PM

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Yes, I believe so.  The day of wrath, as spoken in the new testament times; is a future day imo.  and when that day came, those chosen escaped the wrath of God.  Like Noah, they were elevated/risen above, never to perish.    

It is not always spoken of in the future tense. Paul said that the wrath of God ABIDE UPON (present tense) those who believe not.

Quoteno, i see it as through faith.  There is a fiery trial of one's faith, but that imo is not the wrath of God.  That is a blessing being bestowed upon his son's (not bastards).  The wrath of God is imo, the fire upon those who refuse to live by the faith of Christ, who have They are the one's who    (Rom 1:21)  when they knew God (first), they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(as per Romans 11). There portion is a shame that won't be forgotten.  I believe they are the wicked talked about in Psalm 11.  

And who are you calling "bastards"?  :winkgrin:

Does God have "bastard" children or does he chasten EVERY SON whom He receives?

The wrath of God abides upon those who believe not, but they "experience" the wrath of God before they are actually "in the presence of the Lord and His angels"? Eye can see and yet not perceive the truth, can it not? So perhaps our "experience" of "the wrath of God" depend upon our knowledge of the Lord?

Quotebecause i see the lake of fire, as a shaming for those who have not put on immortality (clothed in Christ)

So you believe that God is a respecter of persons? That He will "shame" others but not you? Have you never felt "shame" for your unbelief?

QuoteNo, because they were washed with the Spirit, given eyes to see prior to the day of wrath.

That doesn't answer the question that I asked. We are not washed with the Spirit BEFORE we have received the spirit; and if we "are" then so is everyone. So does not the wrath of God abide upon (present tense) those who believe not, as Paul stated? And, if so, then how is it that those who are "by nature the children of wrath" do not ALL have "the wrath of God" abiding upon them?

QuoteYes, a child of wrath, that prior to the day of wrath, but had their scales peeled off, their ears opened, and were washed in the spirit; and passed the test prior to the end of the old covenant world.  Joh 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I don't understand what you are saying or how it answers my question, sorry.  :mblush:

Quotesee above

I did, but it still seems to make God a respecter of persons.

QuoteI thought you were saying we were saved or passed from death unto life because of the wrath of God upon us.  In other words, I thot you died to the old man because of the wrath of God.  I may have misunderstood you.

No, you are just seeing being saved "from" something as never ever having to go "through" it. I am saying that we are save "from" it because it we are "taken out if it"... we pass THROUGH it WITH HIM - just as did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were cast into the fire BOUND, but were seen WALKING LOOSED with one LIKE UNTO THE SON OF GOD.... and "were not hurt"

What do you think is the point of the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? To say that the elect/chosen of God are "not" cast into the fire? 

Quoteby nature, yes; but appointed to not have to go through it.  

That's not true. The natural man is the very man who IS appointed unto the wrath of God, as it is "the natural man" that must PERISH. 

QuoteI want to believe what the word teaches, believers are not appointed to wrath.  I don't see the wrath of God as for believers.  It is shaming upon those who don't believe; but it has a positive outcome; the end of that old world.

But that is the whole point, believers are NOT appointed unto the wrath of God, only those who BELIEVE NOT.

But ALL BELIEVERS were once UNBELIEVERS... it is "the old man" who is cast into the fire, so that "the new man" (fit for the kingdom of God) can emerge.

Quoteas above

I don't know what you mean by that. That the righteous, thou once ungodly, never experience the wrath of God? Not even when they were ungodly?

The only way that you can say that it to claim (as you seem to be doing) that God has not yet poured out His wrath on ANYONE.

Yet, Paul very clearly said that wrath of God ABIDETH UPON (present tense, even ~2000 years ago) those who believe not. Jesus Christ himself said: "I am come TO SEND FIRE ON THE EARTH". Has He not yet done so? And what did he means by "and what will I, if it be already kindled?"

Quotebut they move on from death to life; before the day of wrath.  

You can say this only because you see "the day of wrath" as something that takes place "in the future" as part of some linear time line. How can that be if Paul said that the wrath of God ABIDES UPON (present tense) those who believe not (even 2000 years ago)?

Quotebecause imo, the letters written by Paul and gang, were not to be interpreted IMO as you see it.  He was not speaking in parables to them or allegorically, or of literal truths so they could apply it to their "inner/outer man".  He was speaking of literal things about to happen, yet they were spiritual.  They were huge spiritual applications; as the old wordl was about to vanish. For me, I now see those prophecies fulfilled; and so as we live in this world of "all things new"; we can take inner applications from scripture and apply them.  To me, this is what you are doing.  To me, many religions around the world repeat the same message, new agers same, mystical christians same.  It is because imo; we continue to see ourselves as mortal needing to put on immortality.  always hoping for something; always attempting to clothe ourselves with immortality.  It's forward thinking imo.  It's hope deferred; rather than desire fulfilled; the tree of LIFE.

How is that looking upon that which IS NOT SEEN?

The HOPE is CHRIST IN YOU. You see that as a future hope only?

You say you see the prophesies "fulfilled" yet you are still talking about that which is "to come" that has not been fulfilled, so I don't know exactly what you are saying here, as you say "we continue to see ourselves as mortal needing to put on immortality" and I don't even know if you are saying that is how we are "supposed to" see it or if that is wrong, because it sure seems to be what you are saying?

QuoteSo I take it, you see it as a "literal body that returns to dust, that is mortal; and must literally die before all is fulfilled in you????

Not at all. That seems to be what you all are saying, that one cannot "put on" immortality until AFTER they die... but it's not even something that we do WHEN we die... but perhaps thousands of years later.

In essence, what this says is that one who is CLOTHED WITH CHRIST ~NOW~ STILL DIES... when Christ said otherwise.

It looks at "death" according to a natural/physical truth (as it relates to a body of DUST that is going to RETURN TO DUST) rather to a spiritual truth as it relates to THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST, a SPIRITUAL body.

Quote
but that still doesn't make you immortal??

It doesn't make YOUR FLESH immortal, no. But it does QUICKEN THE SPIRIT. And where does THE SPIRIT go when our bodies returns to dust?

Quotesorry for how i wrote back to you, i dont' understand the quote buttons.  

I enjoy discussing this, but please know that it is just that; discussion.  I really am not "attached" to any view; as I KNOW, no matter what my view; we are BELOVED; and that is enough.

:)

No problem!!

You've known me for several years now, so you know very well how my own beliefs have changed throughout the last several years, as my own understanding of the scriptures has changed as new things have come to light.

I don't expect that I see "perfectly", nor do I know if I ever will this side of the grave - if, even, anyone ever does.

But the one thing that I can't do is ignore the very things that have caused me to abandon some of teachings that I have abandoned. That would be like saying that I can ignore the doctrine of ET and go back into a church that teaches it. See?

I went from believing that the deceased were with God to believing in the doctrine of soul sleep. And I was totally convinced that it was "true" and there was nothing that was going to convince me otherwise, but scripture/God. Well, the time came when those things that I was NOT considering finally came to light and I realized that I had not abandoned a lie for the truth after all. I was just not understanding WHO "the dead" ARE and who (NOT MAN) "ascends and descends". I was not seeing who "the angels" are or comprehending what Christ meant when He said that the field were white AND READY TO BE HARVESTED. Nor did I see that He has already sent His disciples TO REAP (the reapers ARE THE ANGELS). 

God does speak in parable and allegories, using types and shadows and those "shadows" are NOT the reality; they simply point to and reveal THE TRUTH!

As someone else pointed out to me years ago... a car can cast a shadow, but the shadow IN NOT THE CAR.

And just as a CORPSE "knows nothing" and "cannot work" and "cannot praise God" because it is "dead" (having NO LIFE in it) and there is "no consciousness" in that body of flesh in which there is no spirit... the same is true of those who partake not of the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ... there is NO LIFE In them; they are "dead", they "know nothing", they "cannot work" (or they are called DEAD WORKS) and they "cannot praise God", whom they do not know.

The "corpse" is but A (natural) SHADOW of a spiritual truth. But it is not :the truth" in and of itself.

Chris

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


treasurest up
G2343
θησαυρίζω
thēsaurizō
thay-sow-rid'-zo
From G2344; to amass or reserve (literally or figuratively): - lay up (treasure), (keep) in store, (heap) treasure (together, up).


Jas 5:3  Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

sounds linear to me, and I'll bet James meant it to be linear, as the day was approaching fast.  

Mat 3:7  But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luk 21:23  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Eph 5:6  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Quote from: Chris on January 18, 2010, 01:51:46 AM

It is not always spoken of in the future tense. Paul said that the wrath of God ABIDE UPON (present tense) those who believe not.

I take this as they are storing up (treasuring up) wrath for the approaching day of wrath. 

Quote from: Chris on January 18, 2010, 01:51:46 AM
So you believe that God is a respecter of persons? That He will "shame" others but not you? Have you never felt "shame" for your unbelief?

I believe God is no respector of persons, because he loves us all.  However; I definitely see certain peoples given different portions; to carry out His plan. 

No, I have never felt shame for unbelief.  I have felt self imposed shame for supposedly "dissapointing God" which really was from being "conditioning" from my earthly parents.         

Quote from: Chris on January 18, 2010, 01:51:46 AM
No, you are just seeing being saved "from" something as never ever having to go "through" it. I am saying that we are save "from" it because it we are "taken out if it"... we pass THROUGH it WITH HIM - just as did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were cast into the fire BOUND, but were seen WALKING LOOSED with one LIKE UNTO THE SON OF GOD.... and "were not hurt"

What do you think is the point of the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? To say that the elect/chosen of God are "not" cast into the fire? 

if shadrach, etc were not hurt,

then no one is hurt; by your interpretation that God is no respector of persons. 

Quote from: Chris on January 18, 2010, 01:51:46 AM

The HOPE is CHRIST IN YOU. You see that as a future hope only?

You say you see the prophesies "fulfilled" yet you are still talking about that which is "to come" that has not been fulfilled, so I don't know exactly what you are saying here, as you say "we continue to see ourselves as mortal needing to put on immortality" and I don't even know if you are saying that is how we are "supposed to" see it or if that is wrong, because it sure seems to be what you are saying?

I apologize, forums are a hard medium to communicate.  For me, I see all prophecy fulfilled.  When I speak of wrath to come, I speak as if I were living in the first century times.  I see no wrath to come anymore.  God has fulfilled through Christ the old and all is new.  IMO, we are living in that world. 

Christ in me, my hope of glory; is a view from "not yet".  I no longer hope for that; as I AM already.  I AM HIS.  Immortality imo; was a covenental term.  Putting on immortality was during the transition of the ages; when the old was ready to pass away; and the new to arrive. 


but (and where i probably confuse you)

is I see us here on earth learning, thinking, and growing into awareness of who we are.  This process, definitely mirrors what you have outlined (ie: the tares within dying, as the new resurrects.  dying to old thots, rising to new). 


What I find absolutely fascinating; is the "smart people" out there; YOU; that can "make sense" of the bible story and apply it to your inward growth;

when;

for me; I don't see that as what Paul, James and gang were preaching. 


how's that for confusing ya. 

blessings to you Chris.  i'll step away for now, as i start obsessing too much over posts, and tend to neglect the important stuff in my life; my family. 

Love to you

Z/L 

Quote from: Zeek on January 18, 2010, 03:30:00 AM
Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


treasurest up
G2343
θησαυρίζω
thēsaurizō
thay-sow-rid'-zo
From G2344; to amass or reserve (literally or figuratively): - lay up (treasure), (keep) in store, (heap) treasure (together, up).

Who is being addressed in that passage?

Quote
Jas 5:3  Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Who are "the rich men" being addressed there?

Quotesounds linear to me, and I'll bet James meant it to be linear, as the day was approaching fast.

Because it mentions "the last days"?  Are we not in "the last days"?

It's not that there is not a "linear" nature to spiritual truths, it's just that they are not limited to TIME and that which is SEEN. In other words, one cannot be "born again" UNTIL "God sends forth His spirit". But "when" that happens for ONE person is not the same as when it happens for another, is it?

One may enter into "THE DAY"  of the Lord (called TODAY) while still others "sleep" in "THE NIGHT" (called Yesterday, when it is past).

That which we can "see" taking place IN TIME in a PHYSICAL way (law... Christ... grace) are carried out within the lives of believers in a spiritual way. We start out as "children" (in bondage, under the law) until such time as "Christ is come" and when Christ "is formed IN US" we pass from death (LAW) unto life (GRACE) and receive "the adoption OF SONS".

QuoteMat 3:7  But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

This was spoken before Christ was crucified and resurrected. Christ said: "I am come TO SEND FIRE ON THE EARTH". Christ came ONCE TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) AND AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT.

NOW is the judgment of this world.

QuoteLuk 21:23  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

You believe that this is talking about literal women who are pregnant or who have small infants?

Christ compares his MALE disciples to "a woman whose hour has come TO BE DELIVERED OF THE CHILD".

Paul himself talks about "travailing in birth" (and putting away CHILDISH things).

Eve (the church) "shall be saved IN CHILDBEARING".

It's about being "delivered of the child" that "A MAN" (Christ) can be born into the world. It is about having Christ formed in you. (Christ IN YOU, the HOPE of glory.)

QuoteEph 5:6  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Present tense.

You are trying to taking single passages that seem to present things the way that you see them in order to "prove" your point, but you still have to reconcile those passages with the other passages that speak of these things in the present tense.

Not everyone enters into "the DAY of the Lord" at the same time, spiritually. We do not do so until we pass from death unto life... TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts).

Quote1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The word translated "to come" in this verse is "erchomai" and it it is a verb written in the middle voice, written only in the present and imperfect tenses. 

Quote1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I think I already addressed this earlier, but who is he talking about? Is it not those who are "OF THE DAY"?

Those who are "OF THE DAY" are NOT "appointed unto wrath". They have already passed from death unto life. Have they not?

The problem is that you are saying that if they do that "here" then they do not have to face "the day of wrath" that is "yet to come".

But I disagree (for the reasons already stated).

NOW is the judgment of this world.

Quote from: Zeek on January 18, 2010, 03:43:14 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 18, 2010, 01:51:46 AM

It is not always spoken of in the future tense. Paul said that the wrath of God ABIDE UPON (present tense) those who believe not.

I take this as they are storing up (treasuring up) wrath for the approaching day of wrath. 

How can they be storing up for something "to come" if it abides on them (present, active, indicative tense)?

You are not addressing the fact that this is written in the present tense. Why?

Quote from: Zeek on January 18, 2010, 03:50:02 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 18, 2010, 01:51:46 AM
So you believe that God is a respecter of persons? That He will "shame" others but not you? Have you never felt "shame" for your unbelief?

I believe God is no respector of persons, because he loves us all.  However; I definitely see certain peoples given different portions; to carry out His plan. 

No, I have never felt shame for unbelief.  I have felt self imposed shame for supposedly "dissapointing God" which really was from being "conditioning" from my earthly parents.         

And what sort of "shame" do you think those who go through the lake of fire are going to experience? Something other the type of shame that you experienced?

Quote from: Zeek on January 18, 2010, 03:54:13 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 18, 2010, 01:51:46 AM
No, you are just seeing being saved "from" something as never ever having to go "through" it. I am saying that we are save "from" it because it we are "taken out if it"... we pass THROUGH it WITH HIM - just as did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were cast into the fire BOUND, but were seen WALKING LOOSED with one LIKE UNTO THE SON OF GOD.... and "were not hurt"

What do you think is the point of the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? To say that the elect/chosen of God are "not" cast into the fire? 

if shadrach, etc were not hurt,

then no one is hurt; by your interpretation that God is no respector of persons. 

Huh?

You are aware that they were not hurt, right?

God is no respecter of persons. Did you mean to say something else?

Quote from: Zeek on January 18, 2010, 04:07:15 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 18, 2010, 01:51:46 AM

The HOPE is CHRIST IN YOU. You see that as a future hope only?

You say you see the prophesies "fulfilled" yet you are still talking about that which is "to come" that has not been fulfilled, so I don't know exactly what you are saying here, as you say "we continue to see ourselves as mortal needing to put on immortality" and I don't even know if you are saying that is how we are "supposed to" see it or if that is wrong, because it sure seems to be what you are saying?

I apologize, forums are a hard medium to communicate.  For me, I see all prophecy fulfilled.  When I speak of wrath to come, I speak as if I were living in the first century times.  I see no wrath to come anymore.  God has fulfilled through Christ the old and all is new.  IMO, we are living in that world. 

Christ in me, my hope of glory; is a view from "not yet".  I no longer hope for that; as I AM already.  I AM HIS.  Immortality imo; was a covenental term.  Putting on immortality was during the transition of the ages; when the old was ready to pass away; and the new to arrive. 


but (and where i probably confuse you)

is I see us here on earth learning, thinking, and growing into awareness of who we are.  This process, definitely mirrors what you have outlined (ie: the tares within dying, as the new resurrects.  dying to old thots, rising to new). 


What I find absolutely fascinating; is the "smart people" out there; YOU; that can "make sense" of the bible story and apply it to your inward growth;

when;

for me; I don't see that as what Paul, James and gang were preaching. 


how's that for confusing ya. 

blessings to you Chris.  i'll step away for now, as i start obsessing too much over posts, and tend to neglect the important stuff in my life; my family. 

Love to you

Z/L 

Yes, now I really am confused... if you don't see any wrath 'to come', then why do you seem to be saying that there is wrath yet to come?

I can relate to spending too much time online and neglecting family things. I do it all the time, but I guess I can get away with it since I am single. But I sometimes still wonder if I should let myself get away with it and allow those things to be neglected - as much as they are.  :mblush:

Have a good night!

Chris  :girlheart:

(The point I had previously sought to make was that these things ought to have some bearing on what experience of God we are entering into now.)

"...Leave both to grow up together until the harvest, and in the season of the harvest I shall be declaring to the reapers, 'Cull first the darnel, and bind them into bundles to burn them up. Yet the grain gather into my barn.'" (Mt 13:30, CLT)

That says nothing about the tares or darnel being resurrected.  No harpazo in the Greek.  The whole parable may be seen as something transpiring within us.  There is a world within.  The soul is a field with many personages and ideas born of God or the wicked.  As well, the judgments preceding the people of God coming to reign in all the land with the anointing is possibly in view.  Ninety percent of the people who have ever lived are alive today.  Approaching is a period that may be called, "The Great Harvest," when many are taken from their bodies by disasters, and judgment, maybe even nuclear war.

A messenger carries a spirit enlivened word, a message that is spirit empowered.   One explanation of things happening today that fulfill this word is groups like terrorists, or homosexuals that have a fellowship, meaning they are tied into bundles.  The people of these groups find their identity with them, not with other groups in the world.  They are tares being bound "into bundles to burn."  There are other things that can be seen to fulfill these words.  If this is a presently being fulfilled word the joy that should be ours is in believing we are being gathered into His granary.  In neither case, that of the tares or the good seed, is there any mention of the physical body being placed into sonship.

There are may good points that should be accepted within what is called the preterist view.  Full preterism, however, doesn't seem to be pressing into the liberation (redemption) of the Adamic physical by its metamorphosis into a deathless incorruptible embodiment, which is clearly taught by Scripture.  This not to be understood as a spirit apart from a body.  The regeneration of the spirit of a man, what is commonly called "the new birth," or, being "born again," does not correspond with the resurrection.  There are three distinct terms used in the Greek and distinguished in English by the Concordant Literal Translation.  They are, "vivification of spirit," "rousing of the soul," and "raising of the body."  All three are used seen in that version's rendering of 1 Corinthians 15.  All three are also said to occur for all mankind the references for which I have done some searching, having  misplaced my notes on the matter.)

Quote from: Chris on January 14, 2010, 03:57:13 AMYou lost me. Why do you call that which you describes as happening first (tares) "the 2nd resurrection"?

Ok let me clarify.  Your question was in terms of the 1st and 2nd resurrection, so I answered using thoese labels.  But my answer was really in terms of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 which is the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection that apparently follows which is the resurrection of the unjust.  However, I'm not sure there is anything in Revelation 20 that proves  that the "first resurrection" actually takes place first in time.

1. Yes it is called the first resurrection.  But "first" does not have to be about time.  It can also be about rank (Strongs says: first in influence, honor; chief; principal).
2. The verse that says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" is not in the two oldest manuscripts.

QuoteChrist said that the tares are harvested "first". So what you have describes seems to be presented in the correct order but you seem to want to label the "resurrection to aionion contempt" as "the 2nd resurrection". Why?

My reason was based on the descriptions of the two resurrections given in Rev 20 not based on their apparent order in time.  Yes the tares are gathered first.  No doubt about that.

Quote from: bobfI don't think the Romans 14:7-9 says that both living and dead are raised with Christ.

QuoteWhy?

I guess you'd have to define living and dead.  Tell me how the living can be raised from the dead if they are already living.

QuoteWhen Paul preached the gospel he said that we had already been reconciled to God through Christ (while we were yet sinners). Paul always spoke of us being raised with Christ, having been planted in the likeness of His death, etc (indication that those things had already taken place) even though not all were "walking in it". The admonishment was to walk in it.

But which parts are past tense and which parts are future tense here?

• Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection


• Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.


• Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

QuotePaul even spoke of those who had "fallen asleep".  I used to think that he was talking about those who had died, physically... but I now believe that he was referring to those who were raised with Christ (revived) but who "did not remain". When Paul speaks of "the end" when the last trumpet sounds and Christ comes for all of those who "remain", he says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first"... then those "who are alive" and remain shall be caught up with them.  Again, I used to see "the dead in Christ" as believers who had previously died, physically, being called out of their graves.

I guess I still take that rather physically, which probably means I don't really understand it.  :)

QuoteBut if it is THE TARES who are gathered FIRST, then how can "the dead" not be "the tares"? How can it be the righteous who are being gathered FIRST (in the FIRST resurrection) - the tares not to gathered for another "thousand years"?

I've already given one possable answer.  A second conceivable answer is that the resurrections themselves are not the gatherings.

QuoteThe fact is that the tares have to be gathered first, in order for the wheat to be gathered into the barn... in order for the wheat to shine forth in the kingdom of God... because if one died for all then were ALL DEAD. Right?

Yes the tares are gathered first.  Taken inwardly this is easy understand.  Especially if you've experienced some of it.

QuoteThat is exactly what I said. We experience wrath/condemnation FIRST, before we pass from death unto life.

You said "as" rather than "before" which made me want to clarify what you were really saying.

QuoteHowever, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ said that HE ((is)) the resurrection. And even if there is more than one, He also said that when the time of harvest came he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES.

Agreed.

QuoteI can see no way of getting around the fact that it is the tares that are gathered first; which would make "the dead in Christ" (who Paul said would rise first) "the tares". Which is why we are not to sorrow for them!! Why would we even sorrow for the righteous, who had already died, physically? Why would Paul need to "comfort" us with the fact that "even the dead shall Christ bring with Him" if he was talking about believers? Who would doubt that?

But that's just it, some not only doubted, they denied the resurrection.

• 1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead.

Quote from: bobf on January 19, 2010, 04:02:40 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 14, 2010, 03:57:13 AMYou lost me. Why do you call that which you describes as happening first (tares) "the 2nd resurrection"?

Ok let me clarify.  Your question was in terms of the 1st and 2nd resurrection, so I answered using thoese labels.  But my answer was really in terms of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 which is the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection that apparently follows which is the resurrection of the unjust.  However, I'm not sure there is anything in Revelation 20 that proves  that the "first resurrection" actually takes place first in time.


1. Yes it is called the first resurrection.  But "first" does not have to be about time.  It can also be about rank (Strongs says: first in influence, honor; chief; principal).
2. The verse that says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" is not in the two oldest manuscripts.

True, though that seems a bit awkward to me. Especially given that those who have part in "the first resurrection" reign with Christ and "the rest of the dead live not until the thousand years is finished".

That appears to say that the righteous are resurrected before the rest of the dead, even though Christ said that the tares are harvested first. So there must be a way to reconcile this apparent contradiction, no?

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisChrist said that the tares are harvested "first". So what you have describes seems to be presented in the correct order but you seem to want to label the "resurrection to aionion contempt" as "the 2nd resurrection". Why?

My reason was based on the descriptions of the two resurrections given in Rev 20 not based on their apparent order in time.  Yes the tares are gathered first.  No doubt about that.

So how do those who have part in the first resurrection rule and reign with Christ until the thousand years are finished before the rest of the dead live?

Quote from: bobfI don't think the Romans 14:7-9 says that both living and dead are raised with Christ.

QuoteWhy?

Quote from: bobfI guess you'd have to define living and dead.  Tell me how the living can be raised from the dead if they are already living.

I would define both according to a spiritual truth; those who are "living" know God and those who are "dead" do not, but are "dead" in sin. Yet both are "raised" with Christ - not meaning raised "to life", as those who are "dead" still "sleep".

But the scriptures say that God both DIED AND ROSE ~and~ REVIVED.

I believe that all were "revived" (having been raised WITH HIM) but some (even most) have "fallen asleep"... which is why Christ changed the terminology - they are not longer "dead", but "asleep" (the two being equivalent, spiritually). 

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisWhen Paul preached the gospel he said that we had already been reconciled to God through Christ (while we were yet sinners). Paul always spoke of us being raised with Christ, having been planted in the likeness of His death, etc (indication that those things had already taken place) even though not all were "walking in it". The admonishment was to walk in it.

But which parts are past tense and which parts are future tense here?

• Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection


• Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.


• Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Exactly!! :thumbsup:

All "have been" (past tense) planted into the likeness of His death (been buried with Him in 'that' baptism... into His DEATH).

But not all know (but all "shall" know) the power of His resurrection.... each in His own order, AT HIS COMING (Christ in you, the Hope of glory).

This is how we have part in "the first resurrection" (HIS).

And we can only know the power of His resurrection by going through that fiery trial with is to try us (the tares being gathered to be burned... that the wheat can be gathered to the barn... so that the wheat can shine forth in the kingdom of God).

This is how "the tares" are harvested first; yet the righteous (once tares) reign with Christ until the thousand years are finished... and then "the rest of the dead" shall LIVE.

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisPaul even spoke of those who had "fallen asleep".  I used to think that he was talking about those who had died, physically... but I now believe that he was referring to those who were raised with Christ (revived) but who "did not remain". When Paul speaks of "the end" when the last trumpet sounds and Christ comes for all of those who "remain", he says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first"... then those "who are alive" and remain shall be caught up with them.  Again, I used to see "the dead in Christ" as believers who had previously died, physically, being called out of their graves.

I guess I still take that rather physically, which probably means I don't really understand it.  :)

Well, I used to, as well. But I just can't see it that way anymore.

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChristBut if it is THE TARES who are gathered FIRST, then how can "the dead" not be "the tares"? How can it be the righteous who are being gathered FIRST (in the FIRST resurrection) - the tares not to gathered for another "thousand years"?

I've already given one possable answer.  A second conceivable answer is that the resurrections themselves are not the gatherings.

Then what would the gathering be?

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisThe fact is that the tares have to be gathered first, in order for the wheat to be gathered into the barn... in order for the wheat to shine forth in the kingdom of God... because if one died for all then were ALL DEAD. Right?

Yes the tares are gathered first.  Taken inwardly this is easy understand.  Especially if you've experienced some of it.

True and very easy to "order" after a spiritual truth, but seems backwards when you try to apply it physically, doesn't it?

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisThat is exactly what I said. We experience wrath/condemnation FIRST, before we pass from death unto life.

You said "as" rather than "before" which made me want to clarify what you were really saying.

Well it seems as if we pass from death to life 'as' we pass through the fire; so I do see a connection. I believe that we are all "cast into the fire" but those who "overcome" are "not hurt" (ie Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego... cast in BOUND, but LOOSED IN THE FIRE as they walked WITH one like unto THE SON OF GOD  :thumbsup:).

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisHowever, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ said that HE ((is)) the resurrection. And even if there is more than one, He also said that when the time of harvest came he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES.

Agreed.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisI can see no way of getting around the fact that it is the tares that are gathered first; which would make "the dead in Christ" (who Paul said would rise first) "the tares". Which is why we are not to sorrow for them!! Why would we even sorrow for the righteous, who had already died, physically? Why would Paul need to "comfort" us with the fact that "even the dead shall Christ bring with Him" if he was talking about believers? Who would doubt that?

But that's just it, some not only doubted, they denied the resurrection.

• 1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead.

As did the Sadducees. But even they erred not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God... and Paul addressed "the resurrection of the dead" after a SPIRITUAL TRUTH, not a natural one; he even called anyone who would ask concerning it, after a natural truth (how are the dead raised up and with what body do they come) as A FOOL! Right?

So even if they understood it (and denied it) after a carnal truth, doesn't mean that it was meant to be understood that way.

That the dead ARE raises, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Why not "will be" raised?

Even Christ put it in the present tense when he sent word unto John the Baptist:

Mat 11:4-5 Jesus answered and said unto them,  Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

That which IS SEEN is meant to show us that which IS NOT SEEN. Right?

So, it seems to me, that looking at "the resurrection of the dead" in relation to physical death (which was NEVER the penalty for sin) and tying it to the flesh and dead/rotting corpses in physical graves is to "err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God" it is to ask "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" It is to focus on the shadow (natural) and miss the reality (spiritual).

It was quite an eyeopener for me when I realize who "the dead" are... and stopped seeing corpses, as Christ said that those who partake not of His flesh and His blood have "no life" in them. And HE is "THE LIFE" that is HID within us and it is not UNTIL HE APPEARS ("until Christ is formed in you") that WE APPEAR WITH HIM - IN GLORY (Christ IN YOU, the hope OF GLORY! ... the angels/stars/celestial bodies of the churches   :girlangel:)   :happygrin:

Sorry it took me a couple of days to reply... been very busy the last couple of days and haven't been online.

Have a great night!!  :Peace2:

so who are the "reapers"?

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The reapers are the wonderful Words of the Lord.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 21, 2010, 05:38:47 AM
The reapers are the wonderful Words of the Lord.

scripture please.  thanks.

and who spreads/preaches the words to the whole world prior to the harvest?


 Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Quote from: Chris on January 21, 2010, 04:40:01 AM

Quote from: bobf on January 19, 2010, 04:02:40 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 14, 2010, 03:57:13 AMYou lost me. Why do you call that which you describes as happening first (tares) "the 2nd resurrection"?

Ok let me clarify.  Your question was in terms of the 1st and 2nd resurrection, so I answered using thoese labels.  But my answer was really in terms of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 which is the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection that apparently follows which is the resurrection of the unjust.  However, I'm not sure there is anything in Revelation 20 that proves  that the "first resurrection" actually takes place first in time.


1. Yes it is called the first resurrection.  But "first" does not have to be about time.  It can also be about rank (Strongs says: first in influence, honor; chief; principal).
2. The verse that says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" is not in the two oldest manuscripts.

True, though that seems a bit awkward to me. Especially given that those who have part in "the first resurrection" reign with Christ and "the rest of the dead live not until the thousand years is finished".

That appears to say that the righteous are resurrected before the rest of the dead, even though Christ said that the tares are harvested first. So there must be a way to reconcile this apparent contradiction, no?

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisChrist said that the tares are harvested "first". So what you have describes seems to be presented in the correct order but you seem to want to label the "resurrection to aionion contempt" as "the 2nd resurrection". Why?

My reason was based on the descriptions of the two resurrections given in Rev 20 not based on their apparent order in time.  Yes the tares are gathered first.  No doubt about that.

So how do those who have part in the first resurrection rule and reign with Christ until the thousand years are finished before the rest of the dead live?

Quote from: bobfI don't think the Romans 14:7-9 says that both living and dead are raised with Christ.

QuoteWhy?

Quote from: bobfI guess you'd have to define living and dead.  Tell me how the living can be raised from the dead if they are already living.

I would define both according to a spiritual truth; those who are "living" know God and those who are "dead" do not, but are "dead" in sin. Yet both are "raised" with Christ - not meaning raised "to life", as those who are "dead" still "sleep".

But the scriptures say that God both DIED AND ROSE ~and~ REVIVED.

I believe that all were "revived" (having been raised WITH HIM) but some (even most) have "fallen asleep"... which is why Christ changed the terminology - they are not longer "dead", but "asleep" (the two being equivalent, spiritually). 

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisWhen Paul preached the gospel he said that we had already been reconciled to God through Christ (while we were yet sinners). Paul always spoke of us being raised with Christ, having been planted in the likeness of His death, etc (indication that those things had already taken place) even though not all were "walking in it". The admonishment was to walk in it.

But which parts are past tense and which parts are future tense here?

• Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection


• Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.


• Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Exactly!! :thumbsup:

All "have been" (past tense) planted into the likeness of His death (been buried with Him in 'that' baptism... into His DEATH).

But not all know (but all "shall" know) the power of His resurrection.... each in His own order, AT HIS COMING (Christ in you, the Hope of glory).

This is how we have part in "the first resurrection" (HIS).

And we can only know the power of His resurrection by going through that fiery trial with is to try us (the tares being gathered to be burned... that the wheat can be gathered to the barn... so that the wheat can shine forth in the kingdom of God).

This is how "the tares" are harvested first; yet the righteous (once tares) reign with Christ until the thousand years are finished... and then "the rest of the dead" shall LIVE.

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisPaul even spoke of those who had "fallen asleep".  I used to think that he was talking about those who had died, physically... but I now believe that he was referring to those who were raised with Christ (revived) but who "did not remain". When Paul speaks of "the end" when the last trumpet sounds and Christ comes for all of those who "remain", he says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first"... then those "who are alive" and remain shall be caught up with them.  Again, I used to see "the dead in Christ" as believers who had previously died, physically, being called out of their graves.

I guess I still take that rather physically, which probably means I don't really understand it.  :)

Well, I used to, as well. But I just can't see it that way anymore.

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChristBut if it is THE TARES who are gathered FIRST, then how can "the dead" not be "the tares"? How can it be the righteous who are being gathered FIRST (in the FIRST resurrection) - the tares not to gathered for another "thousand years"?

I've already given one possable answer.  A second conceivable answer is that the resurrections themselves are not the gatherings.

Then what would the gathering be?

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisThe fact is that the tares have to be gathered first, in order for the wheat to be gathered into the barn... in order for the wheat to shine forth in the kingdom of God... because if one died for all then were ALL DEAD. Right?

Yes the tares are gathered first.  Taken inwardly this is easy understand.  Especially if you've experienced some of it.

True and very easy to "order" after a spiritual truth, but seems backwards when you try to apply it physically, doesn't it?

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisThat is exactly what I said. We experience wrath/condemnation FIRST, before we pass from death unto life.

You said "as" rather than "before" which made me want to clarify what you were really saying.

Well it seems as if we pass from death to life 'as' we pass through the fire; so I do see a connection. I believe that we are all "cast into the fire" but those who "overcome" are "not hurt" (ie Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego... cast in BOUND, but LOOSED IN THE FIRE as they walked WITH one like unto THE SON OF GOD  :thumbsup:).

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisHowever, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ said that HE ((is)) the resurrection. And even if there is more than one, He also said that when the time of harvest came he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES.

Agreed.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: bobf

Quote from: ChrisI can see no way of getting around the fact that it is the tares that are gathered first; which would make "the dead in Christ" (who Paul said would rise first) "the tares". Which is why we are not to sorrow for them!! Why would we even sorrow for the righteous, who had already died, physically? Why would Paul need to "comfort" us with the fact that "even the dead shall Christ bring with Him" if he was talking about believers? Who would doubt that?

But that's just it, some not only doubted, they denied the resurrection.

• 1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead.

As did the Sadducees. But even they erred not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God... and Paul addressed "the resurrection of the dead" after a SPIRITUAL TRUTH, not a natural one; he even called anyone who would ask concerning it, after a natural truth (how are the dead raised up and with what body do they come) as A FOOL! Right?

So even if they understood it (and denied it) after a carnal truth, doesn't mean that it was meant to be understood that way.

That the dead ARE raises, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Why not "will be" raised?

Even Christ put it in the present tense when he sent word unto John the Baptist:

Mat 11:4-5 Jesus answered and said unto them,  Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

That which IS SEEN is meant to show us that which IS NOT SEEN. Right?

So, it seems to me, that looking at "the resurrection of the dead" in relation to physical death (which was NEVER the penalty for sin) and tying it to the flesh and dead/rotting corpses in physical graves is to "err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God" it is to ask "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" It is to focus on the shadow (natural) and miss the reality (spiritual).

It was quite an eyeopener for me when I realize who "the dead" are... and stopped seeing corpses, as Christ said that those who partake not of His flesh and His blood have "no life" in them. And HE is "THE LIFE" that is HID within us and it is not UNTIL HE APPEARS ("until Christ is formed in you") that WE APPEAR WITH HIM - IN GLORY (Christ IN YOU, the hope OF GLORY! ... the angels/stars/celestial bodies of the churches   :girlangel:)   :happygrin:

Sorry it took me a couple of days to reply... been very busy the last couple of days and haven't been online.

Have a great night!!  :Peace2:

The first will be last, and the last first. 

so maybe the tares gathered first, but actually last (second resurrection).  and the last will be first (reigning 1000 years with, given faith, and "eyes to see", aionian life. 

??

Quote from: Zeek on January 21, 2010, 01:53:18 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 21, 2010, 05:38:47 AM
The reapers are the wonderful Words of the Lord.

scripture please.  thanks.

and who spreads/preaches the words to the whole world prior to the harvest?


 Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

God's Word does not return to Him void.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 21, 2010, 06:30:41 PM

Quote from: Zeek on January 21, 2010, 01:53:18 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 21, 2010, 05:38:47 AM
The reapers are the wonderful Words of the Lord.

scripture please.  thanks.

and who spreads/preaches the words to the whole world prior to the harvest?


 Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

God's Word does not return to Him void.

From "God's Word does not return to him void" you saw that as "reapers"?  I kind of see  that,

any others that ties "reapers"  to the "Word"?

I find it interesting a little later in the chapter, the "reapers" are the angels.

Christ, the Word of God says He will drag all men unto Himself.
He is the greatest of Angels, the firstborn of many.

Just as David "walked in the valley of death" and in Romans Paul spoke of back when he was Saul that he was alive unto the world but dead to God. Then in Ro. 6:13 he tells us to be "alive from the dead"

In the Bible death is spoken of both spiritually and physically just as Adam died spiritually the day that he disobeyed God at the same time physical death started to work in him.

Then we have "dead" as "dead to sin" and there is the "alive in Christ" that goes hand and hand with "dead in Christ" :faint:

So do we have to believe that the  "dead in Christ" who are those who are raised first have to wait until they physically die to be raised with Him?........ not according to Paul.  :bgdance:

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So what about those in verse 15 who are asleep that we were once taught were dead in their graves......... and how do we apply Paul's words to us "awake unto righteousness" IF WE ARE NOT ALREADY ASLEEP????? :Chinscratch:

There are no scriptures to lawfully discount that that those who are "dead in Christ" and are the first to rise to be "caught up with Him for evermore" ARE ALIVE IN THE FLESH  !!!!!!............... And there are plenty of verses that support that this IS exactly the way that it is.  

As far as the second resurrection when all the dead are raised before the GWT in Re.20 that most Christians are taught does not include believers and is 1000 years later........ who has the right to mandate that it is actually 1000 years and not just the "different day" that we are taught of because a thousand years is as a day"?.

I was raised as most others were who were brought up in a fundamental church but then after walking in the world (as in underworld) for 25  years God showed me that the church's take on the resurrection(s) is all wrong.

When I had my car accident and was pronounced dead I remained in that state for well over 20 minutes yet at the exact same time participated in the GWT scene of Re. 20 11-13 that was exactly as written rather than what the church taught me as a child........ so why would not every person upon the their natural death be resurrected exactly as I was to face what John said that he saw?

I do believe that is the way that it is and that the first resurrection is for sinners in this life just as Paul speaks of it and I quoted above. On the other hand there is an event spoken of that has not yet come to past that is by some called to be a rapture and by others a manifestation of the sons of God........ and then there is how I like to think of this event as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Malichi when the Lord will suddenly come to his temple (we are not His Temple until AFTER one has already been baptized in the Holy Spirit for those who have ears that hear)

For those who have not read of that experience here is a excerpt from my testimony. Like Paul when he had an out of body experience that he could not "lawfully" speak of things learned because of no other witnesses being present neither would I say that this is the way that it has to be for all....... but it is what I believe and my belief of it being this way for everyone does fulfill the scriptures (other than the me coming back part that did cause quite a stir with the hospital and highway patrol)

Because of the words of others for years I thought that because of what I had already seen and been through that it was already determined that I would miss out on the first resurrection....... now because of a much better understanding of the resurrection(s) I know that does not HAVE to be the case.

Blessings

Doug

.......The spectators could not believe that I was still alive let alone continue to talk to them while the paramedics immobilized me and prepared me for the trip to the hospital. All I could think was that they had no idea who was lying there in front of them and that this was just one more time that I had cheated death. When they wheeled me to the back of the ambulance I got the biggest shock of my life when I suddenly realized that I was about to die and that I had only seconds left to live.

My first thoughts were about how and when my family would find out that I had died and how would my dog get fed and taken care of. Then it got more serious as I realized that it did not matter whether I was wealthy or poor or whether I was driving a luxury car or a junker because I was about to leave this earth. I did not feel qualified to pray for my life at that time however I had a one-way conversation with God and I acknowledged to him that my life had been one of foolishness. I told Him that I no longer had the strength to live and if I was to do so it would take his direct intervention in one way or another because it was now all up to him. At that time I flat lined the monitoring equipment and the call went out to the highway patrol that they were losing me and at the same time and for the first time in my life I had peace and was grateful that dying wasn't all that bad. Keep in mind that I was totally immobilized and could only look straight up had I still been able to see. However I was soon looking at the paramedics eye to eye and at face level as they tried to restart my heart. Their attempts were futile and I was hoping that they would slow down before they ruined the best thing that had ever happened to me. The next thing that happened was that I was taken up into a large area where I could not see anyone else but could sense life around me. I was then "brought" up to a large table that had a very large book on it that was open but was placed in such a manner so that it could be read only by someone on the other side whom I could not see. I knew that this had to be the Book of Life that I had heard about as a youth and that if my name did not appear in it I would have to go to hell. This was very serious indeed but as I stood there the book closed. That did not seem to be a very good sign and I resigned myself to the fact that I would have to go to hell because I had had plenty of opportunities to change but now it was to late. I knew that it wouldn't do any good to cry and beg but that I should at least take it like a man because there would be plenty of time to cry where I was about to go.

However before any sort of trap door opened up to send me to hell I was suddenly taken to a second table that was just as the first one except the book on this table was closed. I was somewhat confused as to what this second book was all about when suddenly it was opened up and this scene became a repetition of the first one. This entire scene with a second book made no sense to me at all because as a child in Sunday School I had only heard of one book but at least it seemed to be a delay in what I already knew was about to happen to me. Then all of a sudden my name was found in this second book and I thought to myself "great I get to go to heaven". Unfortunately before that happened I was suddenly "back alive and in my body" feeling something really good in my throat that I realized was oxygen. I had forgotten that oxygen was one of the first things that they had given to me back at the scene of the accident some miles distant and I thought to myself "well it is about time they gave me some".  All of the above took place while I was still inside the ambulance and when I first opened my eyes there was a man leaning over me who asked me if I was OK. I told him I was fine and looking back I believe that he had been rubbing some oil on my chest that I have assumed to be something they might have used for the conductivity involved with the equipment they used to try and jumpstart my heart........

Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 21, 2010, 07:05:50 PM
Christ, the Word of God says He will drag all men unto Himself.
He is the greatest of Angels, the firstborn of many.

Christ the man,

or

Christ the "head and body".  
(meaning it is those given faith, who are the reapers too).  ??

Beautiful story Doug!!

Blessings to you,
Brian

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 21, 2010, 10:01:13 PM
Beautiful story Doug!!

Blessings to you,
Brian

Thank you for the kind words Brian

I sent you the rest of the story via PM

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: Zeek on January 21, 2010, 05:18:04 AM
so who are the "reapers"?

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The reapers are the angels

Mat 13:39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

And we know that "the angels of the churches" are "the stars" in His right hand, right?

Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So we have reapers = angels = stars ("celestial bodies", right, wherein one star differs from another star in glory?)

And who did Christ send to reap?

Joh 4:38  I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

Because the harvest is "the end of the world" (and Christ came "in the end of the world", saying that the field was white, already to harvest, right?)

And how was Paul "received"?

Gal 4:14  And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Lots of spiritual truths which bear witness to the fact that these things are going on right now.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 02:22:18 AM

Quote from: Zeek on January 21, 2010, 05:18:04 AM
so who are the "reapers"?

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The reapers are the angels

Mat 13:39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

And we know that "the angels of the churches" are "the stars" in His right hand, right?

Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So we have reapers = angels = stars ("celestial bodies", right, wherein one star differs from another star in glory?)

And who did Christ send to reap?

Joh 4:38  I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

Because the harvest is "the end of the world" (and Christ came "in the end of the world", saying that the field was white, already to harvest, right?)

And how was Paul "received"?

Gal 4:14  And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Lots of spiritual truths which bear witness to the fact that these things are going on right now.  :thumbsup:

thanks Chris,

I agree with your post, but don't see how the tares are gathered first, if the reapers are the ones gathering the tares.  To me, this would imply that they (the reapers) were raised first, to then gather the tares.  ?? 

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 04:37:33 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 02:22:18 AM

Quote from: Zeek on January 21, 2010, 05:18:04 AM
so who are the "reapers"?

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The reapers are the angels

Mat 13:39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

And we know that "the angels of the churches" are "the stars" in His right hand, right?

Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So we have reapers = angels = stars ("celestial bodies", right, wherein one star differs from another star in glory?)

And who did Christ send to reap?

Joh 4:38  I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

Because the harvest is "the end of the world" (and Christ came "in the end of the world", saying that the field was white, already to harvest, right?)

And how was Paul "received"?

Gal 4:14  And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Lots of spiritual truths which bear witness to the fact that these things are going on right now.  :thumbsup:

thanks Chris,

I agree with your post, but don't see how the tares are gathered first, if the reapers are the ones gathering the tares.  To me, this would imply that they (the reapers) were raised first, to then gather the tares.  ?? 

Being as the tares are planted by Satan and are the untruths that need to be removed Chris is correct. It will take those who are the first to know the truth to "burn; the lies (tares) taught to God"s children.

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 04:37:33 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 02:22:18 AM

Quote from: Zeek on January 21, 2010, 05:18:04 AM
so who are the "reapers"?

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The reapers are the angels

Mat 13:39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

And we know that "the angels of the churches" are "the stars" in His right hand, right?

Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So we have reapers = angels = stars ("celestial bodies", right, wherein one star differs from another star in glory?)

And who did Christ send to reap?

Joh 4:38  I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

Because the harvest is "the end of the world" (and Christ came "in the end of the world", saying that the field was white, already to harvest, right?)

And how was Paul "received"?

Gal 4:14  And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Lots of spiritual truths which bear witness to the fact that these things are going on right now.  :thumbsup:

thanks Chris,

I agree with your post, but don't see how the tares are gathered first, if the reapers are the ones gathering the tares.  To me, this would imply that they (the reapers) were raised first, to then gather the tares.  ?? 

Paul persecuted the church before he became a laborer in the field, didn't he?  :wink2:

If the tares are "the children of the wicked one" and we are ALL by nature "the children of wrath" (NONE being righteous) then how can it be anything other than "the tares" that are gathered first? That's what needs to be "burned up" isn't it?

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 05:23:47 AM
If the tares are "the children of the wicked one" and we are ALL by nature "the children of wrath" (NONE being righteous) then how can it be anything other than "the tares" that are gathered first? That's what needs to be "burned up" isn't it?

but who gathered those tares??

ok, see where i am struggling with your thinking is the "applying inward".  if Saul/Paul was a tare, and that was burned First, then by my understading of what you are saying; is that he then (now a reaper) went and gathered his own tares again to be burned;  ??   since the reapers (mesengers/angels) do the gathering of the tares to be burned.  

the only way for me to apply this according to my interpretation of your view, is

he was a tare (Saul) got burned first and became Paul; who then went and reaped the remaining tares OTHER peoples tares, not his own??  


The other thing I struggle with a bit, or am thinking about; is the "Saul" to "Paul" conversion, I take it you see as the "end of the age, or the harvest".  In other words; to you is "pentacost" each person's "harvest/end of the age"?  I see that as the beginning; with a consumation (end of age) after the "trying of faith period", ie: after the "40 day wilderness" test. 

who were the reapers that gathered "saul's" tares?? 

 Acts 9;4  He FELL TO THE GTOUND and heard a voice say

  Saul,Saul! Why do you persecute me?


     Matthew 3; 11 But after me will come one who is more

  POWERFUL than I,, whose sandals I am not fit to carry

  He will baptize you with the Holy spirit and fire.

   HIS WINNOWING FORK IS IN HIS HAND,AND HE WILL CLEAR

HIS THRESHING FLOOR,GATHERING HIS WHEAT INTO THE BARN

AND BURNING UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 05:31:09 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 05:23:47 AM
If the tares are "the children of the wicked one" and we are ALL by nature "the children of wrath" (NONE being righteous) then how can it be anything other than "the tares" that are gathered first? That's what needs to be "burned up" isn't it?

but who gathered those tares??

Those who laboured in the field before them, whose labours they entered into.

Joh 4:38  I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.


One plants and another waters, but it is GOD who gives the increase. Amen?

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 05:35:49 AM
ok, see where i am struggling with your thinking is the "applying inward".  if Saul/Paul was a tare, and that was burned First, then by my understading of what you are saying; is that he then (now a reaper) went and gathered his own tares again to be burned;  ??   since the reapers (mesengers/angels) do the gathering of the tares to be burned.  

the only way for me to apply this according to my interpretation of your view, is

he was a tare (Saul) got burned first and became Paul; who then went and reaped the remaining tares OTHER peoples tares, not his own??  


The other thing I struggle with a bit, or am thinking about; is the "Saul" to "Paul" conversion, I take it you see as the "end of the age, or the harvest".  In other words; to you is "pentacost" each person's "harvest/end of the age"?  I see that as the beginning; with a consumation (end of age) after the "trying of faith period", ie: after the "40 day wilderness" test. 

yes, the "first" (natural) man vs the "second" spiritual man... the "old" man vs the "new "man".... the "creature" vs the "new creature".

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 05:39:17 AM
who were the reapers that gathered "saul's" tares?? 

Quite notably, the Lord himself; though isn't that case with all of us? Do we not all have our own "road to Damascus experience" when the Lord "appears" to us?

Quote from: sheila on January 22, 2010, 06:00:02 AM
Acts 9;4  He FELL TO THE GTOUND and heard a voice say

  Saul,Saul! Why do you persecute me?


     Matthew 3; 11 But after me will come one who is more

  POWERFUL than I,, whose sandals I am not fit to carry

  He will baptize you with the Holy spirit and fire.

   HIS WINNOWING FORK IS IN HIS HAND,AND HE WILL CLEAR

HIS THRESHING FLOOR,GATHERING HIS WHEAT INTO THE BARN

AND BURNING UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

:bowing:

thanks Chris for your patience with my questions.  :)

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 06:25:27 AM

Quote from: sheila on January 22, 2010, 06:00:02 AM
Acts 9;4  He FELL TO THE GTOUND and heard a voice say

 Saul,Saul! Why do you persecute me?


    Matthew 3; 11 But after me will come one who is more

 POWERFUL than I,, whose sandals I am not fit to carry

 He will baptize you with the Holy spirit and fire.

  HIS WINNOWING FORK IS IN HIS HAND,AND HE WILL CLEAR

HIS THRESHING FLOOR,GATHERING HIS WHEAT INTO THE BARN

AND BURNING UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

:bowing:

so do you see the "chaff" as the same as tares?  I don't.

I believe the "chaff" is the fiery trial of one's faith, the proces of putting on immortality, the refiners fire.   

which, imo; those given faith are the means (reapers) who burn the tares.  

 :cloud9: To me, since angels means messages OR messengers, I see them as both messages and messengers with a message. When the Lord shows me something new or different to my thinking previously, spiritually speaking, what was "planted" before was just consumed by the fire of His appearing in the "new" message.

In the same way, when someone speaks/writes something that He quickens or makes life in me, again, what was "planted" before in it's place was just uprooted and burned in the fire of His appearing. Just my  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on January 22, 2010, 06:48:53 AM
:cloud9: To me, since angels means messages OR messengers, I see them as both messages and messengers with a message. When the Lord shows me something new or different to my thinking previously, spiritually speaking, what was "planted" before was just consumed by the fire of His appearing in the "new" message.

In the same way, when someone speaks/writes something that He quickens or makes life in me, again, what was "planted" before in it's place was just uprooted and burned in the fire of His appearing. Just my  :2c: Blessings....

so is it the "chaff" that keeps getting burned, or is it "tares"; or do you see them as the same.  The process you describe to me, is a gift of "fire" that is gifted to you through faith.  Do you see the tares and chaff as the same??

Mal 3:5  And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Mal 3:18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Jer 10:25  Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate.

Lam 3:22  It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

I've heard it said that "Jacob" is the soul or spirit of man, the part that doesn't die. Jacob is called a "worm," and Jesus mentions a place where the worm does not die. Perhaps the idea of a "purification" in the next realm is true.?
Verses like, "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD." make me think that Jacob isn't (anymore) a person, but a place in the heart of man. Israel is also a name for this sacred place, it seems to me.


Blessings,
Brian

I hope the we all acknowledge the YOU and ME are the messengers of good news to the world, (Messengers-Angles) IF we speak life to the hears then we are messengers of Life-good news, IF we teach a message that brings to the hears , Death we are then the messengers of Death, not good news. an example of MODeath is Baptist, Mormon, etc...

their message has some news, but it is not even close to a message of Life.

breath out of your mouth (movement of air, Spirit, God breath) brings Life if spoke in proper order of life, ie  speak truths=life.

speak lies or handed down knowledge from the fathers of that religion above, and that word can bring death, or keep you in the "Halls" of death.


Just a foot note. YOU ARE THE REAPERS = ANGELS.... 

I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree. Any human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked. IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Lee              Sorry my spelling is rotten .

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on January 22, 2010, 11:18:59 AM
I've heard it said that "Jacob" is the soul or spirit of man, the part that doesn't die. Jacob is called a "worm," and Jesus mentions a place where the worm does not die. Perhaps the idea of a "purification" in the next realm is true.?
Verses like, "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD." make me think that Jacob isn't (anymore) a person, but a place in the heart of man. Israel is also a name for this sacred place, it seems to me.


Blessings,
Brian

So do you think in Romans 9, Paul isn't really feeling bad for his fellow bretheren "Israelites", but actually for his "sacred place". 

As i've said before, I don't necessarily have a problem with "spiritualizing" the scriptures as I see it as a human nature to look for an "answer" to "life", but I really don't think Paul was "spiritualizing" to the point of everything "inward"; YET I believe Paul was speaking truth/spiritual; not carnal.  So, for me; to take scripture and to interpret it differenlty (imo) from what I perceive Paul and gang doing; imo is because something has changed since first century times.  For me, the fulfilled/preterist view is the "something changed". 

Rom 9:3  For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Rom 9:4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Quote from: Lee Damboise
I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree. Any human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked. IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Quote

Lee, would you say that all are IN CHRIST, or just some? 

I believe physically the heart is wicked above all things and there is none righteous no not one, even Christ said "why calleth me good? none is good save one, that is God".  Of course when Christ said this he was in the flesh at the time.

Physically we are rotten but spiritually in Christ we are perfect. Is this the way you see it?

CHB

Hi Zeek,
I don't want to say that I have the answers and others don't.
On one hand Paul does talk about Israelites "according to the flesh," and yet he also says that not all Israel is Israel. (vv 6)
Jews according to the flesh, and Jews according to the heart.
Here I do see a distinction. Carnal Jews and "spiritual" Jews.

Today there are people fighting over a piece of land in the ME which they consider to be "holy." This by implication means that the rest is "unholy." -Are they right? Maybe. But I do know that a lot of blood has been shed over this literal POV. And we need to look at the fruit of our actions as a guide.

To me today, anything that God made is in a way, "holy," because it is His work. That means you and I, too!!  :bigGrin:

Know what I mean?

Blessings to you,
Brian

 Hi Zeek,

  I wrote a post to you last night in reply..but don't know what

happened to it. I can also see your perspective on the chaff.


 Basically, I see all the analogys as a 'seperating' of the

undesirable from the things desirable by God.

 be it sheep from goats, wheat from chaff, wheat from tares.

gold from dross, mark of beast from sealed mark of God etc


  In the feild[our earth/clay vessel bodies.] There are both

wheat and tares..to be seperated at harvest. and further

seperation is chaff from wheat.

    Distinguishing what is deemed 'righteous' in the eyes of God

from 'unrighteousness'

  ex; chaff removed from wheat could be 'fear of man' that is

removed from the wheat during a feiry trial so that the 'tested

quality of faith be exhibited. Fear of man in itself could be an

unclean spirit removed from the wheat as chaff..an evidence of

the wheat maturing unto a righteous harvest.


  ex; a 'tare' in the feild could be an evil spirit of self

righteousness[offspring of viper/corruption/poisonous tare]

that actually  is poison/death/and rejects and crowds out the

faith of the wheat in the 'feild' Instilling 'fear' negative doubts

and unbeleif;warring against the faith in Christ that is in the

wheat. Sucking up nutrients in the feild and 'hindering' the

developement of the wheat.

      Sheila

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 22, 2010, 01:44:23 PM
I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree.

Well, the issue to me is that the scriptures speak of this, BUT it is almost always used by a believer or someone who says they believe to demean.  

QuoteAny human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked.

This is because of the way we are conditioned to react to the word wicked.

Quote
IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

I have never met a perfect person, no matter how sweet and well intended a persons words are, we are told in scripture to not rely on any man for a reason.

Quote
no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Until a believer shows me a perfect human being walking the earth and can demonstrate that perfection there is not one who has measured up to the idea of what it means to be IN Christ in the first place.   This has nothing to do with judging someone as we are conditioned to react to the word wicked it is simply a truth.

While on this earth we are not complete. Any believer that thinks they are complete and whole needs to prove how they are complete and whole yet has remained an inperfect person. Of course there are people that walk around claiming they are perfect which is a lie.

One false teaching that actually hinders our spiritual growth is the absurd notion that there is actually a day while we live on this earth that we cannot do something better than we did the day before.

Quote from: sheila on January 22, 2010, 05:18:06 PM
Hi Zeek,

  I wrote a post to you last night in reply..but don't know what

happened to it. I can also see your perspective on the chaff.


 Basically, I see all the analogys as a 'seperating' of the

undesirable from the things desirable by God.

 be it sheep from goats, wheat from chaff, wheat from tares.

gold from dross, mark of beast from sealed mark of God etc


  In the feild[our earth/clay vessel bodies.] There are both

wheat and tares..to be seperated at harvest. and further

seperation is chaff from wheat.

    Distinguishing what is deemed 'righteous' in the eyes of God

from 'unrighteousness'

  ex; chaff removed from wheat could be 'fear of man' that is

removed from the wheat during a feiry trial so that the 'tested

quality of faith be exhibited. Fear of man in itself could be an

unclean spirit removed from the wheat as chaff..an evidence of

the wheat maturing unto a righteous harvest.


  ex; a 'tare' in the feild could be an evil spirit of self

righteousness[offspring of viper/corruption/poisonous tare]

that actually  is poison/death/and rejects and crowds out the

faith of the wheat in the 'feild' Instilling 'fear' negative doubts

and unbeleif;warring against the faith in Christ that is in the

wheat. Sucking up nutrients in the feild and 'hindering' the

developement of the wheat.

      Sheila

Thanks for the reply.  Great post. 

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 06:39:30 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 06:25:27 AM

Quote from: sheila on January 22, 2010, 06:00:02 AM
Acts 9;4  He FELL TO THE GTOUND and heard a voice say

 Saul,Saul! Why do you persecute me?


    Matthew 3; 11 But after me will come one who is more

 POWERFUL than I,, whose sandals I am not fit to carry

 He will baptize you with the Holy spirit and fire.

  HIS WINNOWING FORK IS IN HIS HAND,AND HE WILL CLEAR

HIS THRESHING FLOOR,GATHERING HIS WHEAT INTO THE BARN

AND BURNING UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

:bowing:

so do you see the "chaff" as the same as tares?  I don't.

I believe the "chaff" is the fiery trial of one's faith, the proces of putting on immortality, the refiners fire.  

which, imo; those given faith are the means (reapers) who burn the tares.  

The chaff IS BURNED while the wheat IS GATHERED. Right?

How do you see that as being different from the tares? Especially since the "ungodly" are "like the chaff"?  (Isa 1:4) and "the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away" (Isa 29:5) and "chaff" = "stubble" (Isa 33:11)

In Isa 41 the "chaff" are compared to hills of a mountain that has been beaten down with a "sharp threshing instrument having teeth".

In Jeremiah the question is asked "What is the chaff to the wheat?"

We see the "chaff" mentioned primarily in the OT and the "tares" mentioned only in the NT. Right?

So what do you see as the "difference"? when both are "consumed"?

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 07:16:48 AM
Mal 3:5  And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Mal 3:18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Jer 10:25  Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate.

Lam 3:22  It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

Remember that "Jacob" was THE SECOND BORN SON.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 06:02:00 PM

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 06:39:30 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 06:25:27 AM

Quote from: sheila on January 22, 2010, 06:00:02 AM
Acts 9;4  He FELL TO THE GTOUND and heard a voice say

 Saul,Saul! Why do you persecute me?


    Matthew 3; 11 But after me will come one who is more

 POWERFUL than I,, whose sandals I am not fit to carry

 He will baptize you with the Holy spirit and fire.

  HIS WINNOWING FORK IS IN HIS HAND,AND HE WILL CLEAR

HIS THRESHING FLOOR,GATHERING HIS WHEAT INTO THE BARN

AND BURNING UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

:bowing:

so do you see the "chaff" as the same as tares?  I don't.

I believe the "chaff" is the fiery trial of one's faith, the proces of putting on immortality, the refiners fire.  

which, imo; those given faith are the means (reapers) who burn the tares.  

The chaff IS BURNED while the wheat IS GATHERED. Right?

How do you see that as being different from the tares? Especially since the "ungodly" are "like the chaff"?  (Isa 1:4) and "the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away" (Isa 29:5) and "chaff" = "stubble" (Isa 33:11)

In Isa 41 the "chaff" are compared to hills of a mountain that has been beaten down with a "sharp threshing instrument having teeth".

In Jeremiah the question is asked "What is the chaff to the wheat?"

We see the "chaff" mentioned primarily in the OT and the "tares" mentioned only in the NT. Right?

So what do you see as the "difference"? when both are "consumed"?

very good scriptures to assist my thinking.  

I see the chaff as coming off the "same plant"--->wheat.  The gathering of the wheat, the the burning of the chaff (mortality putting on immortality).  The trial of FAITH.  

I see the tares as those who did not move from law to grace; refusing to .

there seems to me to be in scripture a "shame that won't be forgotten" and "a never be shamed".   a return to one's vomit vs. clothed in righteousness.  

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


   

Was you experience from "death" (under law) to life (faith/grace) a feaful judment of fiery indignation?  

For my inward journey of evolving Christ consciousness:

I have to say mine wasn't.  I grew up with faith. I never did not believe.  I do not remember ever going through death to life in the way the bible talks of it (lake of fire).  I have always as long as i remember had deep knowing, a relationship with HIM.  Childlike faith.  It was there.  It imo, was my "lot".  I'm not saying this in pride; just relaying my experience.    

But, I do admit the "trials of my faith", (the wilderness walk) has been fiery.  But oh so sweet too.  The process of putting on immortality has been quite a journey.  And through this my faith to faith has grown.  And I await and pray for the day I  receive the end of my faith; the salvation of my soul.  This to me is definitely possible in THIS LIFE (physical life).  I, like you don't see "physical death" as the final path into this land of paradise.  



 

Chris,

for me; I really do think our "final outcome" of our belief systems is very close.  My whole point of my interaction is that I PERSONALLY struggled with how to see the "inward" approach if one looks at the message Paul and gang was preaching to literal people then.  To me something must have changed over the last 1950  years to make the jump.  Because I think Paul was literally warning literal people of things to come, and yet it was "spiritual" even though "literal". 

The fulfilled preterist view; has been my method of seeing the "jump".  What happened to "them" was to show us the progression of consciousness now.  We all move from death to life at various rates "inwardly" and it mirrors the outplay of what happened then (paul's time).

I apologize if this doesn't make sense.  It's the best I can do.  Again; I appreciate your patience with me.   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 06:19:44 PM

very good scriptures to assist my thinking.  

I see the chaff as coming off the "same plant"--->wheat.  The gathering of the wheat, the the burning of the chaff (mortality putting on immortality).  The trial of FAITH.  

I do not disagree with that... as the "chaff" is the protective casing of the wheat (ie skin/flesh, so to speak), right? Which is eventually separated from the wheat (through "threshing" and "winnowing"), right?

While "tares" are a different plant altogether; one that "looks like" wheat. Right?

But how might they be related, spiritually? And how might they apply to both and "outward" and well as an "inward" manifestation?

QuoteI see the tares as those who did not move from law to grace; refusing to .

I would not disagree with that either. But, then, are you saying that those who have moved on from the law (death) unto grace (life) where never manifested as "tares" but only "chaff"?

Quotethere seems to me to be in scripture a "shame that won't be forgotten" and "a never be shamed".   a return to one's vomit vs. clothed in righteousness.  

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

And what is the connection that you are drawing here between the tares vs the chaff (and/or wheat)?

QuoteWas you experience from "death" (under law) to life (faith/grace) a feaful judment of fiery indignation?  

For my inward journey of evolving Christ consciousness:

I have to say mine wasn't.

If "yours" wasn't then why do you assume that the experience of "others" will be?

Perhaps you are misunderstanding just exactly what is meant by "shame" and "fiery indignation". Do "the dead" KNOW "anything"? Eye can see and yet NOT PERCEIVE, right? Paul says that the wrath of God ABIDES (present tense) upon those who believe not. Do they "know" that? Do they "feel" the wrath of God that is abiding upon them? Do they even KNOW that they "are dead"?

QuoteI grew up with faith. I never did not believe.  I do not remember ever going through death to life in the way the bible talks of it (lake of fire).  I have always as long as i remember had deep knowing, a relationship with HIM.  Childlike faith.  It was there.  It imo, was my "lot".  I'm not saying this in pride; just relaying my experience.    

But what did you grow up having "faith" IN?

Even those who believe in ET "have faith" do they not? Would you say that they are not headed for the lake of fire? Why them and not you?

Who is it that the scriptures say has "their part" in the lake of fire? Do we not ALL meet the criteria?

If one died for all then were ALL DEAD, right? Why do you think that one person's passage "from death into life" is going to different from another man's experience?

No one CAN come to Christ except the Father draw Him, right? and ALL were drawn (according to Christ), right? It is THE EARTH (the flesh) that is BURNED UP. Are we not ALL "first formed out of the dust of the ground" (earthen vessels... fitted for destruction)? 

QuoteBut, I do admit the "trials of my faith", (the wilderness walk) has been fiery.  But oh so sweet too.  The process of putting on immortality has been quite a journey.  And through this my faith to faith has grown.  And I await and pray for the day I  receive the end of my faith; the salvation of my soul.  This to me is definitely possible in THIS LIFE (physical life).  I, like you don't see "physical death" as the final path into this land of paradise.

Why do you think that will be different for those who have not yet been clothed with Christ (or, better yet, do not yet know that THEY HAVE BEEN)?

Is God "more merciful" to some then to others?  Would that not make Him "a respecter of persons"?

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 06:27:43 PM
Chris,

for me; I really do think our "final outcome" of our belief systems is very close.  My whole point of my interaction is that I PERSONALLY struggled with how to see the "inward" approach if one looks at the message Paul and gang was preaching to literal people then.  To me something must have changed over the last 1950  years to make the jump.  Because I think Paul was literally warning literal people of things to come, and yet it was "spiritual" even though "literal". 

The fulfilled preterist view; has been my method of seeing the "jump".  What happened to "them" was to show us the progression of consciousness now.  We all move from death to life at various rates "inwardly" and it mirrors the outplay of what happened then (paul's time).

I apologize if this doesn't make sense.  It's the best I can do.  Again; I appreciate your patience with me.   :HeartThrob:

For me it's not about jumping "from" one "to" the other, as both can exist together, with that which IS SEEN revealing that which is NOT SEEN, right?

First, we have to be able to "see" THE NATURAL and then we can "see" THE SPIRITUAL, right? The natural does not need to cease to exist, does it? It's just not what we are supposed to be "looking upon", right?

I appreciate your patience with me as well, as I know that we have a hard time "understanding" each other sometimes.  :mblush: I appreciate your willingness to re-explain what you mean and to allow me to do the same as we try to "reason together".  :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 08:51:36 PM

Quote from: Zeek on January 22, 2010, 06:19:44 PM

very good scriptures to assist my thinking.  

I see the chaff as coming off the "same plant"--->wheat.  The gathering of the wheat, the the burning of the chaff (mortality putting on immortality).  The trial of FAITH.  

I do not disagree with that... as the "chaff" is the protective casing of the wheat (ie skin/flesh, so to speak), right? Which is eventually separated from the wheat (through "threshing" and "winnowing"), right?

While "tares" are a different plant altogether; one that "looks like" wheat. Right?

But how might they be related, spiritually? And how might they apply to both and "outward" and well as an "inward" manifestation?

QuoteI see the tares as those who did not move from law to grace; refusing to .

I would not disagree with that either. But, then, are you saying that those who have moved on from the law (death) unto grace (life) where never manifested as "tares" but only "chaff"?

Quotethere seems to me to be in scripture a "shame that won't be forgotten" and "a never be shamed".   a return to one's vomit vs. clothed in righteousness.  

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

And what is the connection that you are drawing here between the tares vs the chaff (and/or wheat)?

QuoteWas you experience from "death" (under law) to life (faith/grace) a feaful judment of fiery indignation?  

For my inward journey of evolving Christ consciousness:

I have to say mine wasn't.

If "yours" wasn't then why do you assume that the experience of "others" will be?

Perhaps you are misunderstanding just exactly what is meant by "shame" and "fiery indignation". Do "the dead" KNOW "anything"? Eye can see and yet NOT PERCEIVE, right? Paul says that the wrath of God ABIDES (present tense) upon those who believe not. Do they "know" that? Do they "feel" the wrath of God that is abiding upon them? Do they even KNOW that they "are dead"?

QuoteI grew up with faith. I never did not believe.  I do not remember ever going through death to life in the way the bible talks of it (lake of fire).  I have always as long as i remember had deep knowing, a relationship with HIM.  Childlike faith.  It was there.  It imo, was my "lot".  I'm not saying this in pride; just relaying my experience.    

But what did you grow up having "faith" IN?

Even those who believe in ET "have faith" do they not? Would you say that they are not headed for the lake of fire? Why them and not you?

Who is it that the scriptures say has "their part" in the lake of fire? Do we not ALL meet the criteria?

If one died for all then were ALL DEAD, right? Why do you think that one person's passage "from death into life" is going to different from another man's experience?

No one CAN come to Christ except the Father draw Him, right? and ALL were drawn (according to Christ), right? It is THE EARTH (the flesh) that is BURNED UP. Are we not ALL "first formed out of the dust of the ground" (earthen vessels... fitted for destruction)? 

QuoteBut, I do admit the "trials of my faith", (the wilderness walk) has been fiery.  But oh so sweet too.  The process of putting on immortality has been quite a journey.  And through this my faith to faith has grown.  And I await and pray for the day I  receive the end of my faith; the salvation of my soul.  This to me is definitely possible in THIS LIFE (physical life).  I, like you don't see "physical death" as the final path into this land of paradise.

Why do you think that will be different for those who have not yet been clothed with Christ (or, better yet, do not yet know that THEY HAVE BEEN)?

Is God "more merciful" to some then to others?  Would that not make Him "a respecter of persons"?

Chris, I don't even know how to continue on. 

I beleive we are all children of God, moving into greater awareness of who we are (this being an inward application).  And i have no problem applying wrath, tares etc. to this process if it helps one to see feel at peace with this process.

I just don't see that as what Paul was preaching at the time.  There were  "tares" headed for destruction which occurred at the destruction of Jerusalem; and their were wheat headed for reward.  The implications of this, are what allows us to internalize/spiritualize all of it.   And I don't agree that because Paul was talking about literal things to take place, that it wasn't still spiritual.   

I got to go to basketball game for son again, so I'll get back to ya. 

Quote from: CHB on January 22, 2010, 04:56:47 PM

Quote from: Lee Damboise
I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree. Any human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked. IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Quote



Lee, would you say that all are IN CHRIST, or just some?  ALL ARE IN CHRIST...NOW 

I believe physically the heart is wicked above all things and there is none righteous no not one, even Christ said "why calleth me good? none is good save one, that is God".  Of course when Christ said this he was in the flesh at the time. AND AFTER HE ROSE ? ALL BECAME "IN" HIM

Physically we are rotten but spiritually in Christ we are perfect. Is this the way you see it? NO NOT ROTTEN, WE ARE WHAT WE ARE, HIS... IN HIM

CHB

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 22, 2010, 05:22:19 PM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 22, 2010, 01:44:23 PM
I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree.

Well, the issue to me is that the scriptures speak of this, BUT it is almost always used by a believer or someone who says they believe to demean.  

QuoteAny human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked.

This is because of the way we are conditioned to react to the word wicked. CONDITIONED YES, TO THE WORD NO , ALL WORDS IN BIBLE YES. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE LEARNING , TO KNOW THE WORDS... AND HOW THE CHURCHES LIED TO US ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Quote
IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

I have never met a perfect person,(YOU SHOULD MEET ME, I AM PERFECT, IN CHRIST AND I AM ALWAYS THERE....) no matter how sweet and well intended a persons words are, we are told in scripture to not rely on any man for a reason.

Quote
no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Until a believer shows me a perfect human being walking the earth and can demonstrate that perfection ( HOW? BY WORKS OF THE LAW....???  )there is not one who has measured up to the idea of what it means to be IN Christ in the first place. (NO SAVED PEOPLE EVER)  This has nothing to do with judging someone as we are conditioned to react to the word wicked it is simply a truth.(TO YOU)

While on this earth we(SPEAK FOR YOUR SELF PLEASE) are not complete. Any believer that thinks they are complete and whole needs to prove how they are complete and whole yet has remained an imperfect person.(IN YOUR MEANING OF IMPERFECT) Of course there are people that walk around claiming they are perfect which is a lie.(ONLY BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO BECOME COMPLETE IN CHRIST-PERFECT)

One false teaching that actually hinders our spiritual growth is the absurd notion that there is actually a day while we live on this earth that we cannot do something better than we did the day before.

ABOUT THE ONLY PERFECT PARAGRAPH HERE... ABOVE
  NO PUN INTENDED...

NOT TRYING TO GET YOU UP SET, IT IS MY ABSOLUTE BELIEF AND NOT JUST RAMBLING.... 

LEE DAMBOISE II

Like Lee, I too tend to believe that all are now in Christ. Because we were reconciled to God while we were sinners. That sounds like everyone to me.

My  :2c:,
Brian

Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
While on this earth we are not complete. Any believer that thinks they are complete and whole needs to prove how they are complete and whole yet has remained an inperfect person. Of course there are people that walk around claiming they are perfect which is a lie.

Hi Paul,

(Col. 2:10) And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power.

There is a scripture that talks about us being perfect in Christ. Can't find it right now.

Physically I don't think I am perfect but if I am in Christ I believe spiritually I am perfect in the eyes of the Father. When the Father looks at me he sees Christ. Now, whether everyone is in Christ, is another question. You would think they are though because what ever Jesus accomplished, he accomplished it for all. 

CHB

Quote from: CHB on January 23, 2010, 02:22:43 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
While on this earth we are not complete. Any believer that thinks they are complete and whole needs to prove how they are complete and whole yet has remained an inperfect person. Of course there are people that walk around claiming they are perfect which is a lie.

Hi Paul,

(Col. 2:10) And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power.

There is a scripture that talks about us being perfect in Christ. Can't find it right now.

Physically I don't think I am perfect but if I am in Christ I believe spiritually I am perfect in the eyes of the Father. When the Father looks at me he sees Christ. Now, whether everyone is in Christ, is another question. You would think they are though because what ever Jesus accomplished, he accomplished it for all. 

CHB

Paul, when speaking about attaining to the resurrection of the dead and not counting himself to have attained unto it, says that "as many as BE PERFECT" should walk by the same rule.

Is that what you are thinking of?

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 12:31:24 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 22, 2010, 05:22:19 PM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 22, 2010, 01:44:23 PM
I personally find it offensive when anyone says that no one is righteous, not no one. because that is a lie of the death tree.

Well, the issue to me is that the scriptures speak of this, BUT it is almost always used by a believer or someone who says they believe to demean.  

QuoteAny human that is IN Christ is now righteous for ever.... and the other lie that pees me off is the lie of saying that the heart is wicked , and who can know it.... so they go on to explain that all human hearts are wicked.

This is because of the way we are conditioned to react to the word wicked. CONDITIONED YES, TO THE WORD NO , ALL WORDS IN BIBLE YES. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE LEARNING , TO KNOW THE WORDS... AND HOW THE CHURCHES LIED TO US ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Quote
IF you don't know how that wicked heart is changed, then they have a major problem....

I have never met a perfect person,(YOU SHOULD MEET ME, I AM PERFECT, IN CHRIST AND I AM ALWAYS THERE....) no matter how sweet and well intended a persons words are, we are told in scripture to not rely on any man for a reason.

Quote
no human heart IN Christ is wicked anymore. when ever your heart becomes a part of His...

Until a believer shows me a perfect human being walking the earth and can demonstrate that perfection ( HOW? BY WORKS OF THE LAW....???  )there is not one who has measured up to the idea of what it means to be IN Christ in the first place. (NO SAVED PEOPLE EVER)  This has nothing to do with judging someone as we are conditioned to react to the word wicked it is simply a truth.(TO YOU)

While on this earth we(SPEAK FOR YOUR SELF PLEASE) are not complete. Any believer that thinks they are complete and whole needs to prove how they are complete and whole yet has remained an imperfect person.(IN YOUR MEANING OF IMPERFECT) Of course there are people that walk around claiming they are perfect which is a lie.(ONLY BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO BECOME COMPLETE IN CHRIST-PERFECT)

One false teaching that actually hinders our spiritual growth is the absurd notion that there is actually a day while we live on this earth that we cannot do something better than we did the day before.

ABOUT THE ONLY PERFECT PARAGRAPH HERE... ABOVE
  NO PUN INTENDED...

NOT TRYING TO GET YOU UP SET, IT IS MY ABSOLUTE BELIEF AND NOT JUST RAMBLING.... 

LEE DAMBOISE II

I'm not upset, I just know that no one has completed their journey so there is still a long ways to go.  Call that perfection if you like.

Journey? whats that got to do with being perfect?

I was talking about being perfect (Complete IN Christ), Perfect...

that has nothing to do with the process or journey in knowledge and the trials and tribulations of pressing INTO Christ.

IMO the process and trials will never end.... ever. time excluded.

Lee

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 02:54:11 AM
Journey? whats that got to do with being perfect?

I was talking about being perfect (Complete IN Christ), Perfect...

that has nothing to do with the process or journey in knowledge and the trials and tribulations of pressing INTO Christ.

IMO the process and trials will never end.... ever. time excluded.

Lee

We may be misunderstanding one another.   Here is how I see perfection,  we are perfect in the sense that every human being is from God.   We are perfect for all that we have to learn.

We are not perfect in the sense that if we come to believe in Christ that we are not one ounce better than our enemies who don't.   Now measuring up to that idea is hard and it will not happen except for the Gods mercy and grace and is why Sin and "all falling short" is about having not yet been given all knowledge and truth.

Ok, the above post may be accurate in more than one way, although I don't believe that the falling short part applies. It really is too limited time and space here to explain the whole misdirection and lies told to God's children about being sinners.  of one I am not. "falling short"

Lee

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 03:32:25 PM
Ok, the above post may be accurate in more than one way, although I don't believe that the falling short part applies. It really is too limited time and space here to explain the whole misdirection and lies told to God's children about being sinners.  of one I am not. "falling short"

Lee

"Falling short" is way too passive for what it seems you could say of yourself.  Let's see, according to your doctrine, gay is okay but the Bible is not.  And, everybody is in Christ, only, don't think of Chairman Mao or Hitler, because it is easier to believe that everybody is in Christ if you just don't think of the facts.  Maybe the USA will get a President who is in your Christ.  Of course, he would be if he was like Stalin or Dr. Mengele, just not if he believed in sin and righteousness according to the Bible.  But that is wrong thinking on my part.  I take you too literally.  Oh, and let's not forget there's no such thing as sin anymore.  That makes Jeffrey Dahmer's reported repentance and conversion before he was murdered in prison a delusion.  He really wasn't a sinner and should've been taught that it was just a matter of taste, his dining on the boys he slaughtered.

With such wonderful ideas as an alternative, why would I be so foolish as to choose to keep my Bible?

Quote from: reFORMer on January 24, 2010, 05:19:56 AM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 03:32:25 PM
Ok, the above post may be accurate in more than one way, although I don't believe that the falling short part applies. It really is too limited time and space here to explain the whole misdirection and lies told to God's children about being sinners.  of one I am not. "falling short"

Lee

"Falling short" is way too passive for what it seems you could say of yourself.  Let's see, according to your doctrine, gay is okay but the Bible is not.  And, everybody is in Christ, only, don't think of Chairman Mao or Hitler, because it is easier to believe that everybody is in Christ if you just don't think of the facts.  Maybe the USA will get a President who is in your Christ.  Of course, he would be if he was like Stalin or Dr. Mengele, just not if he believed in sin and righteousness according to the Bible.  But that is wrong thinking on my part.  I take you too literally.  Oh, and let's not forget there's no such thing as sin anymore.  That makes Jeffrey Dahmer's reported repentance and conversion before he was murdered in prison a delusion.  He really wasn't a sinner and should've been taught that it was just a matter of taste, his dining on the boys he slaughtered.

With such wonderful ideas as an alternative, why would I be so foolish as to choose to keep my Bible?

Indeed, many are called, but few chosen!

  :thumbsup::laughing7:
Paul

Quote from: Pierac on January 24, 2010, 05:31:39 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on January 24, 2010, 05:19:56 AM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 03:32:25 PM
Ok, the above post may be accurate in more than one way, although I don't believe that the falling short part applies. It really is too limited time and space here to explain the whole misdirection and lies told to God's children about being sinners.  of one I am not. "falling short"

Lee Damboise's II Reply is in bold Red Letter.


Lee

"Falling short" is way too passive for what it seems you could say of yourself.  Let's see, according to your doctrine, gay is okay(Any of the 640 Laws set up by Moses is not a Law for this gentile, But if you can find righteousness in Law then your a good Jew) but the Bible is not.(This is true because I don't need a book to be His Righteousness)  And, everybody is in Christ,(True) only, don't think of Chairman Mao or Hitler, (All will be in God in the end, sorry you don't believe) because it is easier to believe that everybody is in Christ if you just don't think of the facts.(facts according you your religious understanding apparently)  Maybe the USA will get a President who is in your Christ. (Still trying to figure out if your slant a black man, not sure yet.) Of course, he would be if he was like Stalin or Dr. Mengele, just not if he believed in sin and righteousness according to the Bible. (The Jewish-Christian interputation)  But that is wrong thinking on my part.  I take you too literally.  Oh, and let's not forget there's no such thing as sin anymore. (That is true to all the Angle of God that have cut down the tree of knowledge and feast of the tree of Life) That makes Jeffrey Dahmer's reported repentance and conversion before he was murdered in prison a delusion. (Just like everyone else's self re-enforced delusions)  He really wasn't a sinner and should've been taught that it was just a matter of taste, his dining on the boys he slaughtered. (He will be saved in dew time, sorry spelling isn't great.)

With such wonderful ideas as an alternative, why would I be so foolish as to choose to keep my Bible?

(That is only a question you can answer.)

I think I herd this stated this way "why preach the gospel if all will be saved anyway in the end" Oh those foolish people.
Indeed, many are called, but few chosen!(another book/lesson for the Jews)

  :thumbsup::laughing7:
Paul

These really are the type of comments I would think would come from a calvinist, or Baptist family tree of origins .

Lee Damboise II

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 03:32:25 PM
Ok, the above post may be accurate in more than one way, although I don't believe that the falling short part applies. It really is too limited time and space here to explain the whole misdirection and lies told to God's children about being sinners.  of one I am not. "falling short"

Lee

That is because you view Falling short as a negative as religion has taught.   It is simply a fact and nothing else.   You are still in human form, if you believe you are equal to God as Jesus said he was equal,  then you are deceived.

God is telling us to see facts and accept them.  You are not equal to God yet,  accept it.

Simple.

Scripture contains those phrases, it is the interpretation of their translation that gets all jacked up.

WRITTEN WHEN I BELIEVED IN "SOUL SLEEP". You can probably still find it posted in the BT forum somewhere, if it still goes back that far.



The condition of the dead:


The body goes to the grave:

Gen 3:19: In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.

Psa 104:29: You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.

Ecc 3:20: All go to one place; all are of the dust, and all return to dust again.

Ecc 12:7: then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.



The spirit goes back to the Father:

       
Mat 27:50: And crying again with a loud voice, Jesus released His spirit.

Luk 23:46: And crying with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit. And when He had said this, He breathed out the spirit.

Joh 19:30: Then when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, It is finished! And He bowed His head and gave up the spirit.

Act 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.



It is the union of the body and spirit that makes us a living soul:


Gen 2:7: And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.



The spirit is apart from the body and soul: (as stated earlier)


Psa 104:29: You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.

Ecc 12:7: then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.



Our consciousness does NOT lie in the spirit; it resides in the soul, which goes to "sleep" when we die: (THERE IS NO PART OF US THAT IS IMMORTAL!! Hence the need for a Saviour and the resurrection which comes through Him – He being the first-fruit.)


Deu 31:16:  And Jehovah said to Moses, Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers.

2Sa 7:12:  And when your days are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall come out of your bowels. And I will make his kingdom sure.

1Ki 1:21:  And it will be, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, my son Solomon and I shall be offenders.

Job 7:21:  And why do You not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? For now I shall sleep in the dust, and You shall seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job 14:12:  so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they shall not awake, nor be awakened out of their sleep.

Psa 13:3:  Look! Answer me, O Jehovah my God; enlighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death,

Dan 12:2:  And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



There is no consciousness in the grave:


Ecc 9:5: For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6: Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; nor do they any longer have a part forever in all that is done under the sun.

Ecc 9:10: Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave where you go.

Job 7:9:  As the cloud falls and vanishes away, so he who goes down to the grave shall come up no more.

Job 10:19:  I should have been as though I had not been; I would have been carried from the womb to the grave.

Job 14:13:  Who will grant that You would hide me in the grave, that You would keep me secret, until Your wrath is past, that You would set me a fixed time and remember me?

Psa 6:5:  For in death there is no memory of You; in the grave who shall give You thanks?

Psa 31:17:  Let me not be ashamed, O Jehovah; for I have called on You; Let the wicked be ashamed; let them be silent in the grave.

Psa 49:14:  Like sheep they are appointed to the grave; death shall reign for them; and the upright shall have the rule over them in the morning; and their form is for rotting; the grave is their home.

Psa 88:5:  free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom You remember no more; and by Your hand they are cut off.

Psa 89:48:  What man lives and never sees death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Isa 38:18:  For the grave cannot praise You, death can not rejoice in You; they who go down into the pit cannot hope for Your truth.



The saints do not come back 'with Him'; He comes to resurrect the dead – to call them out of their graves:


Eze 37:13:  And you shall know that I am Jehovah when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves.

Eze 37:14:  And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I Jehovah have spoken and have done it, says Jehovah.

Joh 5:28: Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,"



[They are yet still IN the graves – the time is COMING; it is not PAST.]


Joh 5:29: and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.



They do not hear and answer the call – UNTIL the resurrection... the dead, in the graves, are dead. They are redeemed FROM THE GRAVE, from death.


Hos 13:14:  I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, where are your plagues; O Grave, where is your ruin! Repentance shall be hidden from My eyes.

Psa 6:4:  Return, O Jehovah, return; deliver my soul; save me for Your mercy's sake.

Psa 30:3:  O Jehovah, You have brought up my soul from the grave; You have kept me alive, so that I should not go down to the Pit.

Psa 49:15:  But God will redeem my soul from the hand of the grave; for He will take me. Selah.

Dan 12:2:  And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



Please also note (immediately above) that He is coming to redeem and resurrect our SOUL, not our body. Our bodies will NOT be resurrected:


1Co 15:42-45:  So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;

it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.

1Co 15:50:  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.



Christ is SPIRIT and we will "see Him as He is" and we will be LIKE HIM!!


1Co 15:46:  But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.

Joh 3:6:  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1Joh 3:2:  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Joh 4:24:  God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.



Christ does not a have a body of flesh and bone – glorified or otherwise. He may have appeared to His disciples in 'the flesh':


Luk 24:39-40:  Behold My hands and My feet, that I am He! Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see Me have. And when He had spoken this, He showed them His hands and feet.




But He did this to prove His resurrection and because they were yet carnal, still having doubts:


Luk 24:41  And while they still did not believe for joy, and wondered, He said to them, Have you any food here?

Joh 20:25  The other disciples therefore said to him, We have seen the Lord. But he said to them, Unless I shall see the print of the nails in His hands, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, I will not believe.

Joh 20:26  And after eight days the disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said, Peace to you!

Joh 20:27  Then He said to Thomas, Reach your finger here and behold My hands; and reach your hand here and thrust it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.

Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!



But please remember:


1Co 15:50:  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

As far as what Paul said; Paul did NOT say: 'to be absent from the body IS to be present with Christ.'


2Co 5:8

(ASV)  we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

(KJV+) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

(MKJV)  then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.

(YLT)  we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.




Paul continually spoke of his faith and hope in the resurrection. He aspired to a 'better' resurrection (to be among the 'chosen' in the first resurrection).

May we always remember these words:


Rom 8:38:  For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39:  nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



The problem with this is all of the things that I was MISSING, even though I THOUGHT I was examining "everything" that related to "the body", "the soul" and "the spirit". But I wasn't. I missed a great many things, probably the most important of which is to compare SPIRITUAL things WITH SPIRITUAL.  :mblush:

   Resurrection of the body of Christ is the third Heaven and

  earth..the third DAY of PERFECTION..even the Sabbath. The

Upward call is the resurrection to perfection of the saints.

  Perfect in their generation. The third heaven is the perfect

translation of the word of God..Law and Prophets fulfilled and

translated perfectly in resurrected body of Christ.[Perfect in

understanding]


   Noah was perfect amidst a crooked generation and was

delivered. Christ was perfect amidst a crooked generation and

was delivered of death, as so too, those hidden in Him. He had

perfect understanding and fulfilled the law


  Perfect understanding amidst a crooked generation of those

who reign with Christ. This is what our Father is establishing in

the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. A perfect

understanding[NEW HEAVEN] of the MIND/WILL/HEART of God

on earth[New Earth] This is the promised Kingdom of Christ


   Three Days..third day resurrection...was, am..is to come

the 'is to come' is the third day  and IT IS UPON US


  There is the GOOD...Acceptable  and PERFECT WILL OF GOD

  our THREE heavens.Hebrews 9;12 When Christ came as high

priest of the GOOD things that are already here, he went

through the greater and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE THAT IS

NOT MAN-MADE, that is to say ,NOT A PART OF THIS CREATION


  Hebrews 12;28  Therefore since we are receiving a Kingdom

that can not be shaken,let us be thankful, and so worship God

ACCEPTABLY with reverence and awe


   the THIRD DAY...is  I AM RETURNING UNTO MY FATHER

  it is the Spirit returning unto God who gave it...it is the

abyssing of satan in the dust


Isaaih 52;1  Awake! Awake! O"Zion, clothe yourself with

strength[coming with power] Put on your garments of splendour

O Jerusalem the Holy city.The uncircumcized and defiled will not

enter you again[Rev 21;27] Shake off your dust, RISE UP,SIT

ENTHRONED.

   I saw the Holy city, New Jerusalem, COMING DOWN OUT OF

HEAVEN FROM GOD[they had to ascend first/come up here/

spirit return unto Father]


   Now this is the city that Abraham was seeking..a city not

built by human hands...and because this city/promise was not

fulfilled in His Day[All these people were  still living by faith

when they died.They did not receive the things promised; they

only saw and welcomed them from the distance].And they

admitted they were aliens and strangers on earth.....instead

they were longing for a better country- a heavenly one


   John 2;19    DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND I WILL RAISE IT

   AGAIN IN THREE DAYS


   LORD OF THE SABBATH Luke 6;40  A student is not above his

teacher, but everyone who is FULLY TRAINED[instructed] WILL

BE LIKE HIS TEACHER[PREPARED}


  John 16;12,13  I have MUCH MORE TO SAY TO YOU, MORE

THAN YOU CAN NOW BEAR  But when he, the spirit of truth

comes, he will guide you into all truth[Acts 11;10]

2 Cor 12;2....he heard inexpressible things, things that man is

not permitted to tell[only revealed by spirit/tell no man]


  Paradise/parousia/presence/return of Christ...third heaven.

SOE VIII V3  And in the midst of the trees that of life,

IN THAT PLACE WHEREON THE LORD RESTS[Sabbath] when

He goes up into paradise, and this tree is of ineffable goodness

and frangrance......v4  IT'S ROOT IS IN THE GARDEN AT THE

EARTH'S END.....AND PARADISE IS BETWEEN CORRUPTIBILITY

AND INCORRUPTIBILITY.[ meet the Lord in the air]1 Cor 15;52

Resurrection of Christ...resurrection body...in a flash in the

twinkling of an eye, at the Last trumpet.

  Rev 16;17  The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air

   [Ephesians 2;1,2  Made ALIVE IN CHRIST...as for you, YOU

  WERE DEAD   in your transgressions and sins,

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this

world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who

is now at work in those who are disobediant


  Rev 11;14  The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom

of our Lord and of His Christ


  Isaaih 52;10  The Lord will lay bare His holy arm in the sight

of all the nations, AND ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH WILL SEE

THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD

Christ will have a body of flesh and bones to walk on earth with............ it will be the bodies of those who have been born again into the image and likness of God just like Jesus was.

Blessings

Doug

and is, and is to come.
Holy Holy is He...  www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NN9hX61vhg&feature=related

We are His Mercy Seat!
Poised to pour out His love upon His Beloved Creation.

Quote from: Chris on January 24, 2010, 08:35:00 PM
WRITTEN WHEN I BELIEVED IN "SOUL SLEEP". You can probably still find it posted in the BT forum somewhere, if it still goes back that far.

. . . . . . .omit. . . . . . .

Please also note (immediately above) that He is coming to redeem and resurrect our SOUL, not our body. Our bodies will NOT be resurrected:


1Co 15:42-45:  So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;

it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.

1Co 15:50:  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

I don't get the connection with some of your quoted verses.  Some of your statements aren't born out by the interspersed verses either.  Like this:  "...that He is coming to redeem and resurrect our SOUL, not our body. Our bodies will NOT be resurrected..." Is this meant generally or a specific view of one particular thread in Scripture?  I really have difficulty understanding why you would say such a thing at all and yet continue to use Scripture speaking of resurrection as if to prove there is no resurrection.  It is central to what Jesus accomplished, victory over death of His physical body.  It is central to the message of those who follow Jesus.  Paul understands it as...

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused.
14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith.
15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused.
16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused.
17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith -- you are still in your sins!
18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.
19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we.

Quote from: Chris on January 24, 2010, 08:35:00 PM
Christ is SPIRIT and we will "see Him as He is" and we will be LIKE HIM!!


1Co 15:46:  But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.

Joh 3:6:  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1Joh 3:2:  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Joh 4:24:  God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.



Christ does not a have a body of flesh and bone – glorified or otherwise. He may have appeared to His disciples in 'the flesh':


Luk 24:39-40:  Behold My hands and My feet, that I am He! Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see Me have. And when He had spoken this, He showed them His hands and feet.

Just because we are spirit doesn't mean we don't have physical bodies.  It is similar with God.  He is Spirit; but, He has embodiment.  The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ according to the Scripture. "We are members of His body, flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones." (Ep 5:30)

Quote from: Chris on January 24, 2010, 08:35:00 PM
But He did this to prove His resurrection and because they were yet carnal, still having doubts:

. . . . . . .omit. . . . . . .

This statement is so unlike the nature of Christ.  Pretending to have flesh to get them to believe He was resurrected!?  "They were carnal" you say.  So, God accomodates their carnality by making a deceptive appearance as if He had flesh!?  Guileful Jesus!?

I find it easy to just believe in the full placing of our physical nature into what it is to be born of God physically in resurrection, with the liberty of the glory in the physical dimension, full inheritors of authority over all things physical.

 I will insert this here, it is not my desire to muddle up

the threshing out of truth going on.

  At one time the spirit told me that I had an outer and inner

soul. Just the past few days been given understanding of what

was being declared to me. The soul that is sinning will die.


   All born in Adam lose their soul through Adam, those born of

Christ have Christs soul, Our soul is hidden in Him. The inner

man is the one renewed day by day, though the outward man

[soul] perish.

   He gave HIS SOUL A RANSOM FOR ALL, and POURED HIS

SOUL EVEN UNTO DEATH. When He took on the likeness of flesh

He joined Himself as one spirit to our souls. The regenerated

soul of mankind will raise up righteous offspring for the

deceased family of Adam, through the LIVING SPIRITUAL SON

      We all have first expierenced the soul that is sinning as an

inheritance from Adam. with the accompaning mind,spirit,heart

and corruption of it's flesh. And so too, in the regeneration we

will all inherit the accompanying mind spirit heart and

incorruptible body of Christ


  Matthew 10;28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but

can not kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can

destroy both soul and body in hell.

    my  :2c:

Quote from: reFORMer on January 26, 2010, 07:37:36 AM
  Guileful Jesus!?

Scripture does have an intriguing verse along this line.


2C 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Quote from: reFORMer on January 26, 2010, 07:37:36 AM

I don't get the connection with some of your quoted verses.  Some of your statements aren't born out by the interspersed verses either.  Like this:  "...that He is coming to redeem and resurrect our SOUL, not our body. Our bodies will NOT be resurrected..." Is this meant generally or a specific view of one particular thread in Scripture?  I really have difficulty understanding why you would say such a thing at all and yet continue to use Scripture speaking of resurrection as if to prove there is no resurrection.  It is central to what Jesus accomplished, victory over death of His physical body.  It is central to the message of those who follow Jesus.  Paul understands it as...

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused.
14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith.
15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused.
16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused.
17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith -- you are still in your sins!
18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.
19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we.

And you think this passage it talking about a physical resurrection of a physical body? What about verse 16? Does it not say "if the dead are not BEING roused"? You think that Paul is speaking about some future physical resurrection here?

And while the scriptures do speak of "the redemption of our bodies" what is that "redemption" connected to? Is it not "the adoption of sons" and are we not THE BODY of Jesus Christ, after a sprititual truth? And do we not receive "the adoption of sons" when Christ is formed IN US - HERE?

And what does it mean when the scriptures say (in relation to "the spiritual body")  that GOD GIVES IT A BODY? You believe this means that that which has long-since decayed and returned to dust (that scripture says PROFITS NOTHING) is going to be "resurrected"?

Quote from: reFORMer
Just because we are spirit doesn't mean we don't have physical bodies.  It is similar with God.  He is Spirit; but, He has embodiment.  The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ according to the Scripture. "We are members of His body, flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones." (Ep 5:30)

The fulness of the Godhead did dwell IN CHRIST (A MAN). Where is that "man" now? Was Christ not made A QUICKENING SPIRIT? Does He not now dwell IN US? How does He do that? Just "figuratively"? He's "really" sitting around somewhere in another world "in" His physical body, rather than "in" THE BODY that "we" are?  

Quote from: reFORMer
This statement is so unlike the nature of Christ.  Pretending to have flesh to get them to believe He was resurrected!?  "They were carnal" you say.  So, God accomodates their carnality by making a deceptive appearance as if He had flesh!?  Guileful Jesus!?

Really??  :mshock:

Can you QUOTE ME as EVER having said ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME that "Jesus was pretending to have flesh"?   :laughing7:

Seriously, how does one "pretend" to have flesh?  :dontknow:

Did Christ not WALK this earth after His resurrection? Did His disciples not TOUCH HIS BODY OF FLESH AND BONES?

Did He not SAY: "handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have"?  :dontknow:

But He also left this physical realm, did He not?  :thumbsup:

QuoteI find it easy to just believe in the full placing of our physical nature into what it is to be born of God physically in resurrection, with the liberty of the glory in the physical dimension, full inheritors of authority over all things physical.

First of all, you are trying to correct a bunch of stuff that I specifically said that I do NOT BELIEVE anymore, wherein I also pointed out that there were MANY things that I "missed" at the time that the above was written (though I did not think so or know so at the time).

Secondly, I never said that we will not have physical bodies or live in a physical world. We may very well; but the scriptures DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT. We are told NOTHING about what "will be" after this life/world except that we will "forever be with Lord".

That being said, I still do not believe that THIS PHYSICAL BODY that I NOW HAVE is going to one day pop out of a physical grave. The flesh PROFITS NOTHING - it RETURNS TO DUST, from whence it came. How can it both "profit nothing" AND "be resurrected" at some future point in time?

Whatever "spirtiual body" we have is a body that scripture says GOD GIVES US, and to each seed it's own body.  :thumbsup:

Might that body be manifest PHYSICALLY, in a PHYSICAL world? YES!!

Quote from: sheila on January 25, 2010, 07:10:34 PM
   Resurrection of the body of Christ is the third Heaven and

  earth..the third DAY of PERFECTION..even the Sabbath. The

Upward call is the resurrection to perfection of the saints.

  Perfect in their generation. The third heaven is the perfect

translation of the word of God..Law and Prophets fulfilled and

translated perfectly in resurrected body of Christ.[Perfect in

understanding]


   Noah was perfect amidst a crooked generation and was

delivered. Christ was perfect amidst a crooked generation and

was delivered of death, as so too, those hidden in Him. He had

perfect understanding and fulfilled the law


  Perfect understanding amidst a crooked generation of those

who reign with Christ. This is what our Father is establishing in

the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. A perfect

understanding[NEW HEAVEN] of the MIND/WILL/HEART of God

on earth[New Earth] This is the promised Kingdom of Christ


   Three Days..third day resurrection...was, am..is to come

the 'is to come' is the third day  and IT IS UPON US


  There is the GOOD...Acceptable  and PERFECT WILL OF GOD

  our THREE heavens.Hebrews 9;12 When Christ came as high

priest of the GOOD things that are already here, he went

through the greater and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE THAT IS

NOT MAN-MADE, that is to say ,NOT A PART OF THIS CREATION


  Hebrews 12;28  Therefore since we are receiving a Kingdom

that can not be shaken,let us be thankful, and so worship God

ACCEPTABLY with reverence and awe


   the THIRD DAY...is  I AM RETURNING UNTO MY FATHER

  it is the Spirit returning unto God who gave it...it is the

abyssing of satan in the dust


Isaaih 52;1  Awake! Awake! O"Zion, clothe yourself with

strength[coming with power] Put on your garments of splendour

O Jerusalem the Holy city.The uncircumcized and defiled will not

enter you again[Rev 21;27] Shake off your dust, RISE UP,SIT

ENTHRONED.

   I saw the Holy city, New Jerusalem, COMING DOWN OUT OF

HEAVEN FROM GOD[they had to ascend first/come up here/

spirit return unto Father]


   Now this is the city that Abraham was seeking..a city not

built by human hands...and because this city/promise was not

fulfilled in His Day[All these people were  still living by faith

when they died.They did not receive the things promised; they

only saw and welcomed them from the distance].And they

admitted they were aliens and strangers on earth.....instead

they were longing for a better country- a heavenly one


   John 2;19    DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND I WILL RAISE IT

   AGAIN IN THREE DAYS


   LORD OF THE SABBATH Luke 6;40  A student is not above his

teacher, but everyone who is FULLY TRAINED[instructed] WILL

BE LIKE HIS TEACHER[PREPARED}


  John 16;12,13  I have MUCH MORE TO SAY TO YOU, MORE

THAN YOU CAN NOW BEAR  But when he, the spirit of truth

comes, he will guide you into all truth[Acts 11;10]

2 Cor 12;2....he heard inexpressible things, things that man is

not permitted to tell[only revealed by spirit/tell no man]


  Paradise/parousia/presence/return of Christ...third heaven.

SOE VIII V3  And in the midst of the trees that of life,

IN THAT PLACE WHEREON THE LORD RESTS[Sabbath] when

He goes up into paradise, and this tree is of ineffable goodness

and frangrance......v4  IT'S ROOT IS IN THE GARDEN AT THE

EARTH'S END.....AND PARADISE IS BETWEEN CORRUPTIBILITY

AND INCORRUPTIBILITY.[ meet the Lord in the air]1 Cor 15;52

Resurrection of Christ...resurrection body...in a flash in the

twinkling of an eye, at the Last trumpet.

  Rev 16;17  The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air

   [Ephesians 2;1,2  Made ALIVE IN CHRIST...as for you, YOU

  WERE DEAD   in your transgressions and sins,

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this

world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who

is now at work in those who are disobediant


  Rev 11;14  The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom

of our Lord and of His Christ


  Isaaih 52;10  The Lord will lay bare His holy arm in the sight

of all the nations, AND ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH WILL SEE

THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD

Beautiful!!!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: sheila on January 26, 2010, 05:47:53 PM
I will insert this here, it is not my desire to muddle up

the threshing out of truth going on.

 At one time the spirit told me that I had an outer and inner

soul. Just the past few days been given understanding of what

was being declared to me. The soul that is sinning will die.


  All born in Adam lose their soul through Adam, those born of

Christ have Christs soul, Our soul is hidden in Him. The inner

man is the one renewed day by day, though the outward man

[soul] perish.

  He gave HIS SOUL A RANSOM FOR ALL, and POURED HIS

SOUL EVEN UNTO DEATH. When He took on the likeness of flesh

He joined Himself as one spirit to our souls. The regenerated

soul of mankind will raise up righteous offspring for the

deceased family of Adam, through the LIVING SPIRITUAL SON

     We all have first expierenced the soul that is sinning as an

inheritance from Adam. with the accompaning mind,spirit,heart

and corruption of it's flesh. And so too, in the regeneration we

will all inherit the accompanying mind spirit heart and

incorruptible body of Christ


 Matthew 10;28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but

can not kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can

destroy both soul and body in hell.

   my  :2c:

AMEN!!

The soul that sinneth IT SHALL DIE... and if ONE DIED FOR ALL then were ALL DEAD (in sin)!!

When sin is finished... it bringeth forth DEATH!!!  :mblush:

Praise be to Christ who is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!!!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: sheila on January 25, 2010, 07:10:34 PM
   Resurrection of the body of Christ is the third Heaven and

  earth..the third DAY of PERFECTION..even the Sabbath. The

Upward call is the resurrection to perfection of the saints.

  Perfect in their generation. The third heaven is the perfect

translation of the word of God..Law and Prophets fulfilled and

translated perfectly in resurrected body of Christ.[Perfect in

understanding]


   Noah was perfect amidst a crooked generation and was

delivered. Christ was perfect amidst a crooked generation and

was delivered of death, as so too, those hidden in Him. He had

perfect understanding and fulfilled the law


  Perfect understanding amidst a crooked generation of those

who reign with Christ. This is what our Father is establishing in

the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. A perfect

understanding[NEW HEAVEN] of the MIND/WILL/HEART of God

on earth[New Earth] This is the promised Kingdom of Christ


   Three Days..third day resurrection...was, am..is to come

the 'is to come' is the third day  and IT IS UPON US


  There is the GOOD...Acceptable  and PERFECT WILL OF GOD

  our THREE heavens.Hebrews 9;12 When Christ came as high

priest of the GOOD things that are already here, he went

through the greater and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE THAT IS

NOT MAN-MADE, that is to say ,NOT A PART OF THIS CREATION


  Hebrews 12;28  Therefore since we are receiving a Kingdom

that can not be shaken,let us be thankful, and so worship God

ACCEPTABLY with reverence and awe


   the THIRD DAY...is  I AM RETURNING UNTO MY FATHER

  it is the Spirit returning unto God who gave it...it is the

abyssing of satan in the dust


Isaaih 52;1  Awake! Awake! O"Zion, clothe yourself with

strength[coming with power] Put on your garments of splendour

O Jerusalem the Holy city.The uncircumcized and defiled will not

enter you again[Rev 21;27] Shake off your dust, RISE UP,SIT

ENTHRONED.

   I saw the Holy city, New Jerusalem, COMING DOWN OUT OF

HEAVEN FROM GOD[they had to ascend first/come up here/

spirit return unto Father]


   Now this is the city that Abraham was seeking..a city not

built by human hands...and because this city/promise was not

fulfilled in His Day[All these people were  still living by faith

when they died.They did not receive the things promised; they

only saw and welcomed them from the distance].And they

admitted they were aliens and strangers on earth.....instead

they were longing for a better country- a heavenly one


   John 2;19    DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND I WILL RAISE IT

   AGAIN IN THREE DAYS


   LORD OF THE SABBATH Luke 6;40  A student is not above his

teacher, but everyone who is FULLY TRAINED[instructed] WILL

BE LIKE HIS TEACHER[PREPARED}


  John 16;12,13  I have MUCH MORE TO SAY TO YOU, MORE

THAN YOU CAN NOW BEAR  But when he, the spirit of truth

comes, he will guide you into all truth[Acts 11;10]

2 Cor 12;2....he heard inexpressible things, things that man is

not permitted to tell[only revealed by spirit/tell no man]


  Paradise/parousia/presence/return of Christ...third heaven.

SOE VIII V3  And in the midst of the trees that of life,

IN THAT PLACE WHEREON THE LORD RESTS[Sabbath] when

He goes up into paradise, and this tree is of ineffable goodness

and frangrance......v4  IT'S ROOT IS IN THE GARDEN AT THE

EARTH'S END.....AND PARADISE IS BETWEEN CORRUPTIBILITY

AND INCORRUPTIBILITY.[ meet the Lord in the air]1 Cor 15;52

Resurrection of Christ...resurrection body...in a flash in the

twinkling of an eye, at the Last trumpet.

  Rev 16;17  The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air

   [Ephesians 2;1,2  Made ALIVE IN CHRIST...as for you, YOU

  WERE DEAD   in your transgressions and sins,

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this

world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who

is now at work in those who are disobediant


  Rev 11;14  The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom

of our Lord and of His Christ


  Isaaih 52;10  The Lord will lay bare His holy arm in the sight

of all the nations, AND ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH WILL SEE

THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Quote from: sheila on January 26, 2010, 05:47:53 PM
I will insert this here, it is not my desire to muddle up

the threshing out of truth going on.

  At one time the spirit told me that I had an outer and inner

soul. Just the past few days been given understanding of what

was being declared to me. The soul that is sinning will die.


   All born in Adam lose their soul through Adam, those born of

Christ have Christs soul, Our soul is hidden in Him. The inner

man is the one renewed day by day, though the outward man

[soul] perish.

   He gave HIS SOUL A RANSOM FOR ALL, and POURED HIS

SOUL EVEN UNTO DEATH. When He took on the likeness of flesh

He joined Himself as one spirit to our souls. The regenerated

soul of mankind will raise up righteous offspring for the

deceased family of Adam, through the LIVING SPIRITUAL SON

      We all have first expierenced the soul that is sinning as an

inheritance from Adam. with the accompaning mind,spirit,heart

and corruption of it's flesh. And so too, in the regeneration we

will all inherit the accompanying mind spirit heart and

incorruptible body of Christ


  Matthew 10;28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but

can not kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can

destroy both soul and body in hell.

    my  :2c:

:thumbsup:

Some random verses about heart spirit soul and body

Mar 12:29-30  and Jesus answered him--`The first of all the commands is , Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one;  and thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart(kardia), and out of thy soul(psuche), and out of all thine understanding, and out of all thy strength--this is the first command;


heart, kardia- highest seat of consciousness, the mercy seat "having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience/consciousness

The heart of man is wicked and utterly deceitful who can know it.

Repentence is a change of heart, no longer hiding, but rather coming to the light, confessing the hidden things of darkness and bringing them to the light.

Heb 4:12-13  For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.  Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

The separating/dividing of soul and spirit discerns(makes manifest) the thoughts and intentions(reigns) of the heart.

Acts 2:37 They were pierced in their hearts and cried out, "Men and brethren what must we do"


This has a lot to do with the conscience of man, which is connected to the heart.

Rom 2:14-16  For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,  in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts

A broken and a contrite heart O God you will not cast out

I dwell in the high and holy place and with the one who is of a broken and a contrite heart




The relationship between the heart, soul, spirit and body of man with the Spirit of God is an interesting one that I have been studying for years. There is so much written OT & NT. I don't have a lot of confidence in any of the dogmatic simplified positions I see, but that could be my ignorance. However, the subject matter is awesome and there is so much scripture that seems to contradict, or create paradox. My experience with paradoxeshas been that the true paradigm is revealed in a place beyond and usually inclusive of parts of all the polarizing arguments.

Rom 1:9  For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you,

Paul is aware of the distinction of his person in his own spirit

The spirit gives life the flesh profits nothing

God is a spirit and those who would serve Him must serve Him in spirit(pneuma) and in truth(noce, mind)

The spirit returns to God who gave it, returning to the Father of lights(phos manifestations, rays) with whom there is no variableness or shadow of turning.

Heb 12:22-24  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly(universal companionship) and church(ekkliesia) of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect (finished complete), and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


This universal companionship that we have come to, those who are already awakened from sleep, includes the spirits of those finished, complete-perhaps-tried in the fire as gold purified 7 times. These spirits seem to me to be more than just impersonal breaths of God, but rather individual and personal manifestations or rays.

Php 3:8-14  More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,  and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;   in order that I may attain to the resurrection(ex-anastasias, out ressurection-only time used in scripture) from the dead.  Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.  Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,  I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

I think this goal Paul was pressing into is a goal that not everyone reaches in their earthy sojourn, and one that is specifically rewarded, in some way, a "better resurection"(Hebrews 11:35), of the various "glories"(1 Cor 15:36-44) of the spiritual body of the resurrection. Perhaps the "spirits of righteous men(diakonos) made perfect(finished complete). This could be the firstr ressurection or not, the point being to attain to it, more than to obtain the gnosis of it.


The Lord our God is one and we were created in His image. God speaks of His heart, His soul, His spirit, His mind, and we are His body.

Also, I see the ark of the covenant as a picture of man. The mercy seat is the heart, it must be sprinkled so the spirit of God can come dwell between the wings of the cherubim, typological of the spirit of man(full of eyes and always praising), and the acacia wood box, made of that which grows from the earth and guilded(by of me gold tried in the fire) and in it the tablets of stone(word implanted which is able to save your souls) and the rod that budded(supernatural life from a dead stick) and the manna(bread of life, fellowship).

So what happens to the heart at death? I don't know for sure, but it seems like a relevant question. But the how and when isn't as important to me as the spiritual nature & substanceof the experience, like, "their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day....."
If a person was to take ALL the verses on the soul and the spirit and the heart and All the verses on death and sleep and look at them ALL together their might arise  possibilities we haven't commonly considered, but even then, it is clear that it is the depth and reality of our commitment to Him that is of the utmost importance.


Rom 1:8-12  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.  For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you,  always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you. For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established; that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine.

Soul Body Spirit     tid-bit...

From Lee Damboise II

                                     Soul-Body-Spirit
   Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul.  The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit.  There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body.  At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen ( or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical  locations, but rather a condition.
                                                 BODY

   When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn.11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job. 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc..., etc.)  The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is ( Mat. 28:6).  Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol ( Jonah 2:2).  Jonah was not "literally" in hell[ sheol ], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die.  I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception in side the fish resembled his knowledge of the word " sheol."
                                               SPIRIT
   When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:43, Psa. 104:24-30).  The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death.  Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21 ).  There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies.  The spirit "gives life."  No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be.  There are no exception.  If there are, where is the Scriptures?  A dead person cannot experience anything—not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a FABLED hell.  This is a serious thing.  Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of Faith is Sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, [ then it is a sin to teach It.


Bless all

Quote from: eaglesway on January 28, 2010, 08:25:36 PM


Php 3:8-14  More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,  and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;   in order that I may attain to the resurrection(ex-anastasias, out ressurection-only time used in scripture) from the dead.  Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.  Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,  I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

I think this goal Paul was pressing into is a goal that not everyone reaches in their earthy sojourn, and one that is specifically rewarded, in some way, a "better resurection"(Hebrews 11:35), of the various "glories"(1 Cor 15:36-44) of the spiritual body of the resurrection. Perhaps the "spirits of righteous men(diakonos) made perfect(finished complete). This could be the firstr ressurection or not, the point being to attain to it, more than to obtain the gnosis of it.

Do you read that as Paul claiming that he, himself, HAD NOT "attained" unto "the resurrection of the dead"?

Or that he "counted it not"; therefore he strive for it, AS THOUGH he had not attained unto it?

   I read that there was something he had not yet attained to. I believe the "ex-anastatsias" refers to something like the first resurrection, "out resurrection from amongst the dead", or the "spirits of just men (diakonos) made perfect(finished, complete)". As long as we are in the body, we have not attained to it, we must press on towards the mark of the prize of the upward call of God in Christ, enduring till the end.
   I am sure Paul was absolutely confident in his eternal life. Every believer can rest in the full assurance of the hope of eternal life, set free from the fear of death that drives the flesh. I know my position is unpopular with some folks, but I also believe there are greater glories, greater stewardships, and a better resurrection that can be attained to for deeper service.(because you were faithful over little I will make you master over much).
   I think Paul had insight to this and he was "striving according to the masteries" for the prize, running with patience the race set before him- a race that is not over as long as you live in the body. This is the patience of the saints.
   "To him who overcomes I will give......" "Behold,I come quickly and my reward is with me..."
   
   For instance, James says, and Jesus reiterates through John in Revelation, the "crown of life for the one who endures under trial". This is a different result than the one who builds wood hay and stubble and "loses his reward, tho he himself will be saved, but so as through fire".

Rev 3:10  Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

I believe the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world to test those who live on earth is the great white throne judgement. Everyone who does not complete the course in this life may finish the course there.  I am sharing these ideas as one who sees through a glass darkly-  not setting it forth as doctrine.

 there is a certain 'poor man, whose wisdom saved a city.

  I have heard his voice and will share with you.


   The church is Lazarus that has been in the grave.Lazarus

  is resurrected just as the church has slept in the grave for 2000

  years.  John 11;11....  I go that I may awaken Him, Christ has

returned to awaken'resurrect His church. Lazarus means 'helped

of God' You realize they are helped with a little help in Daniel.


   In Rev the word written to the seven spirits in Asia[asia

   means/sunrise/resurrection.] He holds the keys to hades and

death and comes to release/resurrect.


   Luke 9;32  But Peter and they that were with him were

heavey in sleep...AND WHEN THEY WERE AWAKE THEY SAW

HIS GLORY AND THE TWO MEN THAT STOOD WITH HIM[also

remember the two men[angels] in the resurrected tomb.


   Now, we all that are awakened are due to be carried away to the

bosom position. The night came,when no man could work,and

the tares were sown while we slept[church 2000years 2 days in

grave].

   This is the spiritual resurrection that I am concerned with

  today. It is actually the only resurrection I am concerned

about, for you can't have any other to LIVE..everything else IS

DEATH.

   Dan 11;34  when they fall they

will receive a little help.

   The RESURRECTION IS OCCURRING AS HE  SPEAKS

   He called us forth from spiritual death in babylon/confusion

  that is the spiritual grave...He has prepared a place for us in

the Holy city New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, only the

spiritually righteous can enter into that promised place,even

the bosom position[breast/thigh portion High Preist's portion to

bring forth righteous offspring]5 wise virgins who enter

   All the kings of the earth[kings and priests] bring their glory

into it[it is the glory of kings to search out a matter/ the glory

of God to conceal a matter] These are the spiritual truth's

eternal treasures that the kings bring into the city.They have

overcome the lies through their king of Kings and found the

pearl in the feild] They overcome through the spirit the lies

and confusion of babylon, the spirit of truth has come..He who

is faithful and true rides in behalf of truth and righteousness

with victory. On His robe and on his thigh[offspring that issue

forth from his thigh] He has this NAME WRITTEN

  KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

   Let me tell you something about the resurrection..IT IS HIS

  VOICE THAT CALLS YOU FORTH FROM THE GRAVE

   LISTEN TO HIM

Quote from: eaglesway on January 29, 2010, 08:02:42 AM
   I read that there was something he had not yet attained to.

Then why does he say "I count it not"? If there is nothing to actually "count" to begin with? Why does he say to "as many as BE perfect" to "walk by the same rule"?

QuoteI believe the "ex-anastatsias" refers to something like the first resurrection, "out resurrection from amongst the dead", or the "spirits of just men (diakonos) made perfect(finished, complete)". As long as we are in the body, we have not attained to it, we must press on towards the mark of the prize of the upward call of God in Christ, enduring till the end.

Again, Paul talked of those who were 'already' perfect. And Jesus Christ told Martha (at the resurrection of Lazarus, when she said that she knew that she would see her brother again "at the resurrection at the last day") "I AM" the resurrection and the life. Didn't Paul strive to know the power OF HIS (THE FIRST) resurrection? Are we not "resurrected from the dead" by being found IN HIM, who IS "the resurrection and the life" who calls us (just as He did Lazarus) "out of the graves" (what Paul called "the body of this death"? A body that is "full of dead men's bones" and whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "set on fire of hell")?

QuoteI am sure Paul was absolutely confident in his eternal life. Every believer can rest in the full assurance of the hope of eternal life, set free from the fear of death that drives the flesh. I know my position is unpopular with some folks, but I also believe there are greater glories, greater stewardships, and a better resurrection that can be attained to for deeper service.(because you were faithful over little I will make you master over much).

So "the hope of eternal life" is a hope that can never be realized "in this life"? Even though "the hope of glory" IS "Christ in you"? Didn't Paul say that believers HAVE eternal life? That they HAD PASSED from death unto life? And didn't Jesus say that those who LIVE and BELIEVE "shall never die"?

QuoteI think Paul had insight to this and he was "striving according to the masteries" for the prize, running with patience the race set before him- a race that is not over as long as you live in the body. This is the patience of the saints.
   "To him who overcomes I will give......" "Behold,I come quickly and my reward is with me..."

Yes, we must "endure to the end"; but isn't Jesus Christ THE END of our FAITH, He being the One through whom "salvation" comes? Paul said that the "rule" was to count not that we have attained unto it and to continue to strive for it, not as though we have "already attained", but how does that mean that we have not when Paul clearly speaks of those who "already be perfect" (though not counting himself)?

Could it be that Paul, like John the Baptist, was not willing to bear witness OF HIMSELF, as even Jesus Christ said that He could not bear witness OF HIMSELF (though He was one who DID bear witness of Himself... because THE FATHER, who was IN HIM, bore witness of Who He was)? Just as Christ bore witness of John, that He was Elijah who was to come, even though John said he was not? Just as Paul bore witness of others though not himself and just as Job refused to bear witness of himself, saying that to do so would only prove himself perverse?
   

QuoteFor instance, James says, and Jesus reiterates through John in Revelation, the "crown of life for the one who endures under trial". This is a different result than the one who builds wood hay and stubble and "loses his reward, tho he himself will be saved, but so as through fire".

But not saved in this life, through the fiery trial that is to try us?

QuoteRev 3:10  Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

And how do you reconcile that with the fact that we go through "a fiery trial" which is to try us? With the fact that Jesus Christ said "I am come to send fire on the earth"? That God sits "as a refiner's fire"? That we are saved "yet so as by fire"?

What is the difference between that which is "in the heavens" (ABOVE = LIFE) and that which is  "in the earth" (BENEATH = HELL = DEATH)? When it is not until His judgments are IN THE EARTH that the inhabitants OF THE EARTH shall LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS?

QuoteI believe the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world to test those who live on earth is the great white throne judgement. Everyone who does not complete the course in this life may finish the course there.  I am sharing these ideas as one who sees through a glass darkly-  not setting it forth as doctrine.

How do you reconcile that with the fact that Jesus said "I am come to send fire on the earth" and "NOW" is the judgment of this world (judged BY FIRE, yes?) with Heb 27 (which many, including myself at one time, claim says that judgment does not take place until after men physically die - though the passage is not about the death of "men" but the death OF CHRIST) which says that Christ came "ONCE TO DIE" (as it is appointed unto men) and "AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT"? 

And that Christ comes "the second time" unto them that look for him, without sin unto salvation? Are we not saved BY FAITH, through grace, receiving "the adoption of sons" (to wit, the redemption of our bodies) when Christ (the HOPE OF GLORY) is formed within us - delivering us from the child (in bondage under the law, differing nothing from a servant)? Isn't "this" what Paul "waited" for and what we are told to look for - HIS APPEARING? He who IS the resurrection and THE LIFE that is HID within us, we APPEARING WITH HIM (in glory = THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE) only after HE WHO IS OUR LIFE shall appear (IN US). Would this not be the manifestation of the sons of God? The "cloud" (of witnesses) through whom he "returns" so that "every eye" can see Him (though many SEE and PERCEIVE NOT)?   

Quote from: sheila on January 29, 2010, 08:19:24 PM
there is a certain 'poor man, whose wisdom saved a city.

  I have heard his voice and will share with you.


   The church is Lazarus that has been in the grave.Lazarus

  is resurrected just as the church has slept in the grave for 2000

  years.  John 11;11....  I go that I may awaken Him, Christ has

returned to awaken'resurrect His church. Lazarus means 'helped

of God' You realize they are helped with a little help in Daniel.


   In Rev the word written to the seven spirits in Asia[asia

   means/sunrise/resurrection.] He holds the keys to hades and

death and comes to release/resurrect.


   Luke 9;32  But Peter and they that were with him were

heavey in sleep...AND WHEN THEY WERE AWAKE THEY SAW

HIS GLORY AND THE TWO MEN THAT STOOD WITH HIM[also

remember the two men[angels] in the resurrected tomb.


   Now, we all that are awakened are due to be carried away to the

bosom position. The night came,when no man could work,and

the tares were sown while we slept[church 2000years 2 days in

grave].

   This is the spiritual resurrection that I am concerned with

  today. It is actually the only resurrection I am concerned

about, for you can't have any other to LIVE..everything else IS

DEATH.

   Dan 11;34  when they fall they

will receive a little help.

   The RESURRECTION IS OCCURRING AS HE  SPEAKS

   He called us forth from spiritual death in babylon/confusion

  that is the spiritual grave...He has prepared a place for us in

the Holy city New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, only the

spiritually righteous can enter into that promised place,even

the bosom position[breast/thigh portion High Preist's portion to

bring forth righteous offspring]5 wise virgins who enter

   All the kings of the earth[kings and priests] bring their glory

into it[it is the glory of kings to search out a matter/ the glory

of God to conceal a matter] These are the spiritual truth's

eternal treasures that the kings bring into the city.They have

overcome the lies through their king of Kings and found the

pearl in the feild] They overcome through the spirit the lies

and confusion of babylon, the spirit of truth has come..He who

is faithful and true rides in behalf of truth and righteousness

with victory. On His robe and on his thigh[offspring that issue

forth from his thigh] He has this NAME WRITTEN

  KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

   Let me tell you something about the resurrection..IT IS HIS

  VOICE THAT CALLS YOU FORTH FROM THE GRAVE

   LISTEN TO HIM

AMEN!!!!

LORD, LOOSE US from the bands OF DEATH!!!

TODAY {when we HEAR HIS VOICE and HARDEN NOT OUR HEARTS} shalt thou be WITH ME {THE TREE OF LIFE} IN PARADISE!!

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God .... Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest.....

AMEN!!! AMEN!!! AMEN!!!  :cloud9:

 :cloud9: And a 3rd AMEN...... :thumbsup:

    I don't get involved in drawn out positonal disputes, but we shouldn't make broad assumptions about what people believe based on these brief exchanges, it is impetuous and contrary to fellowship.... I completely realize that when we believe in the Lord Jesus we pass from death unto life. I completely understand that the fire burns now. I do not agree that the resurrection is complete now. It is each in his own order and an administation suitable to the fulness of time, an outworking of ages, in my view. Unless this is an exclusively preterist site I think I should be able to speak in the language of scripture. I certainly recognize everyone elses right to their particular view, and I do not assume the mandate to debate evryone who holds a different position than mine.

 Even as we fully understand that Jesus has overcome the world, as Paul said, "We do not yet see all things subject to Him". We must endure to the end in laboring to enter His rest, agreed. Thats exactly what overcoming is all about. "Nevertheless not my will but yours be done".This is the Sabbath rest, having ceased from our own works, entering those works which were finished before the foundation of the world. Yet, the Son had a mission to accomplish, as do we, that is the promised land, fulfilling the will of God by the Spirit of Grace.

   Ceasing from our own works is about meekness and trust and gentleness and purity- the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle with all, patiently instructing those who oppose themselves. The surest evidence that we have not entered into His rest is anxiousness to engage in debates.

  The surest evidence that we are still in Babylon (which means "confusion by mixture") is in the way we deal with one another when we disagree.
 

  We have the hope of eternal life the instant we believe. At no point did I indicate otherwise. But, and as I said before, "what i believe", is that there is further reward for the overcomers. It is entering that rest, in this life, the right to participate as mature sons in the Father's ministry of reconciliation. It also reveals more besides in the resurrection. The reward lost to the one who does not cease from his own works is not the loss of eternal life. It is the loss of certain benefits in this sojourn in the body and in the ressurection. These rewards are reserved for those who share the crucified life while in their earthly stewardship.

  Beyond that, I have no desire to debate the partial preterist or hyper preterist views, and someone might want to look at some of my posts to see what I think before they go off on a tangent. I understand the fulfilled view...but as I read it we are still in the body, and there will be eternal ramifications to how we exercise this stewardship in time.

Also IMO the parable of Lazarus was written for believers through out the entire 2000 years since Jesus' ascension. I personally don't think it was written primarily as a message about the church of today 2000 years later. It has been speaking through out the entirety of this age, and at its core I believe it to be a simple message. It concerns what Jesus said many believers will hear on the day.... I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink, I was sick, and you never visited me, I was naked and you did not cloth me....depart you lawless ones, into the age-lasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Well, eaglesway, since I am the one who addressed you and you have not responded - except with this post - I am hoping that it is safe to assume that you are addressing me. You can correct me if I am wrong, but I would like to respond to what you have said and take the opportunity to clarify a few things with regard to myself and my position in light of what you have said here. I hope you don't mind and I hope you don't see it as me trying to dispute or debate with you, but rather as me trying to clarify my position, which it seems you might not properly understand - based on some of the things that you have said.

Quote from: eaglesway on January 29, 2010, 10:40:48 PM

   I don't get involved in drawn out positonal disputes,

Sometimes I do, but that depends on the time and the place, not to mention the topic and the audience, as I have been known to "debate" the position of UR with those who believe in ET or annihilation. Though I do not see how asking someone questions about what they believe and why or asking them how other things (that I might present to them) might factor into their position is seen as a "drawn out positional dispute".

I was actually interested in the answers to the questions I asked, as they are questions that I had to ask myself or have been asked by others at one time or another when my position was probably very similar to yours. Had I not been asked questions for which I had no "good" answers because I had never asked them of myself or had them asked of me before then I might still be exactly where I was then; still thinking that I had considered "everything" when I actually had not.

Quote

but we shouldn't make broad assumptions about what people believe based on these brief exchanges, it is impetuous and contrary to fellowship....

Not that the TM forum is not a place for fellowship, but it is also a place where particular topics and/or doctrines get discussed since, isn't it? Obviously, not everyone here agrees on all things related to UR, even if most here believe in UR. I see nothing wrong with carrying on such discussion/debates, though my hope would be that they remain civil or else I might not choose to continue to participate.

That being said, I started this thread to discuss a particular topic, something that came up in another discussion; that is the purpose for this thread. Are you saying that you do not wish to discuss the topic of the thread?  Or that you wish only to be able to post your own position without it being "questioned" by those who might not see these things the same way? 

Quote

I completely realize that when we believe in the Lord Jesus we pass from death unto life.

:thumbsup: 

But you won't explain how this belief reconciles with what you said about waiting for eternal life? To me, this is "eternal life" (to know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent). If eternal life means something else to you, then how can we know what that is if we don't ask or you won't say/answer?

Quote

I completely understand that the fire burns now.

:thumbsup:

Again, how do we know what that 'means' to you if you will not elaborate or 'tie' it to some of the other things that are being discussed with regard to the topic that you have added your comments to?

Quote

I do not agree that the resurrection is complete now.

Neither do I; though "it is finished" as far as God is concerned.

That being said, we still wait for the full realization of God being "all in all". Some do still sleep.

Quote

It is each in his own order and an administation suitable to the fulness of time, an outworking of ages, in my view. Unless this is an exclusively preterist site I think I should be able to speak in the language of scripture. I certainly recognize everyone elses right to their particular view, and I do not assume the mandate to debate evryone who holds a different position than mine.

I'm not Preterist so not sure why you have jumped to that conclusion based on my posts or any of the questions that I asked. Perhaps you can explain if you are, in fact, addressing me in particular.

 

Quote

Even as we fully understand that Jesus has overcome the world, as Paul said, "We do not yet see all things subject to Him". We must endure to the end in laboring to enter His rest, agreed. Thats exactly what overcoming is all about. "Nevertheless not my will but yours be done".This is the Sabbath rest, having ceased from our own works, entering those works which were finished before the foundation of the world. Yet, the Son had a mission to accomplish, as do we, that is the promised land, fulfilling the will of God by the Spirit of Grace.

Achieved when and where? Do any of us enter into that rest in this life? Seems to me that if anyone did, then Paul did. But you are the one who said that you do not see Paul as one who attained unto the resurrection of the dead.

If you don't then you must see the resurrection of the dead as something other than one's passing from death unto life, as you seem to believe that we do the latter here, but not the former? I was simply wondering how that 'fits' with some of the other things that Paul (and others) wrote.

Should we not wonder how these things are reconciled by others who see things differently than we do? Have you 'always' had the understanding that you do now? If not, did you not inquire of others at one time or another to gain a better/different understanding?

Quote

Ceasing from our own works is about meekness and trust and gentleness and purity- the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle with all, patiently instructing those who oppose themselves. The surest evidence that we have not entered into His rest is anxiousness to engage in debates.

So it's better to just post our own position and refuse to answer for it or answer any questions that are presented by others because of it? Because that should be seen as being "anxious to engage in debates"?

Why did you participate in the discussion of this topic if you are only interested in expressing your own position without regard for how others might see it or whether or not they might have questions for you with regard to how you see it?

Are you not interested in how others who see things differently reconcile the same scriptures that you do in order to come to a different conclusion? Does that not make you want to investigate other understandings in order to make sure that you have not missed something that someone else has not?

The very reason that I no longer believe in soul sleep is because there came a time when I was asked questions that I DIDN'T have an answer for. I was then forced to face the fact that maybe I was the one missing something. I have had to do the same thing with many "beliefs" that I once held to be "true". It's quite eye-opening and very humbling. Because of this I no longer go into discussions thinking that it is "me" who is there to teach others and show others what "they" are missing, but it might just be me who comes out of such discussions/debates with a new perspective.

But that doesn't mean that I won't point out to others what I think they are missing, if I believe that they are missing something that is relevant to their position - especially when it comes to something that I was once missing and that, once seen, changed my own perspective. Is this not how iron sharpens iron? Are we not supposed to "reason together", etc?

Quote

  The surest evidence that we are still in Babylon (which means "confusion by mixture") is in the way we deal with one another when we disagree.

Are you saying that other here (especially me, since I am the one who asked you the questions) have not dealt with you fairly, amicably, or sincerely?

This is the 3rd time in recent weeks that "Babylon" has come up in discussions with me.  :mshock:

That makes me wonder if it it is "me".  :mblush:

Or if it just makes some people feel better to be able to accuse those who they disagree with of being a part of "Babylon" or of being "in bed with the churches of today"?  :dunno2:

Either way, how does that reflect a spirit of "meekness and trust and gentleness and purity"? And how does using those "buzz words" (as I have come to see them in recent years) prove that the one who uses them is right and the rest of us are just "confused" and still part of "Babylon"?  :Chinscratch:

 

Quote

We have the hope of eternal life the instant we believe. At no point did I indicate otherwise.

I did not question that; I asked what that hope is, according to you, and when you believe that it is actually realized. Especially since the scriptures speak of those who HAVE eternal life (present tense 2000 years ago) and you speak of it (it seems) as something that we can only hope for here, but that is not realized until after we die physically and leave this world.

I am not trying to jump to conclusion or make assumptions, but that seems to be what you are saying, which is why I asked. If you don't want to answer that's fine but please don't get upset if others come to the wrong conclusions - not because they only want to assume but because you refuse to say or answer questions that might given them some clarification as to your actual position. That's not fair. No need to be fair if you don't want to be, but I can hope for it anyway.  :mblush:

Quote

But, and as I said before, "what i believe", is that there is further reward for the overcomers. It is entering that rest, in this life, the right to participate as mature sons in the Father's ministry of reconciliation. It also reveals more besides in the resurrection. The reward lost to the one who does not cease from his own works is not the loss of eternal life. It is the loss of certain benefits in this sojourn in the body and in the ressurection. These rewards are reserved for those who share the crucified life while in their earthly stewardship.

So you equate "eternal life" with "immortality"? Seeing both as that "life" that no one receives or will have until after they die and after they are (later) resurrected?

Besides all of the other questions that I asked about this already, I can't see how this reconciled with the fact that it is THIS MORTAL that must "put on" immortality and THIS CORRUPTIBLE that must "put on" incorruption and (according to Peter) it's not about being "unclothed" (dying physically, as I see it) but about being "clothed upon" that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE.

I don't guess you'd tell me how you reconcile that if I asked?

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Beyond that, I have no desire to debate the partial preterist or hyper preterist views, and someone might want to look at some of my posts to see what I think before they go off on a tangent. I understand the fulfilled view...but as I read it we are still in the body, and there will be eternal ramifications to how we exercise this stewardship in time.

Since I am not Preterist I don't know if you are speaking of me or someone else, though it seem to me that you are responding to my post to you. So wonder if you have not made assumptions of your own with regard to my position and/or what motivates my questions?

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Also IMO the parable of Lazarus was written for believers through out the entire 2000 years since Jesus' ascension. I personally don't think it was written primarily as a message about the church of today 2000 years later. It has been speaking through out the entirety of this age, and at its core I believe it to be a simple message. It concerns what Jesus said many believers will hear on the day.... I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink, I was sick, and you never visited me, I was naked and you did not cloth me....depart you lawless ones, into the age-lasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I see the story of Lazarus as a parable that speaks spiritual truths as it relates to "the dead"... applicable to all men - before and after Lazarus was physically resurrected from an earthly tomb. Just as all of Christ's miracles (seen) pointed to higher spiritual truths, that are eternal (not seen).   :gthumbsup:

What I have discovered is that when there is this much misunderstanding there is really not much use in continuing. I feel like you misunderstood what I was saying and you feel like I misunderstand what you are saying. I was not defining the TM forum in any way, or asking anyone to fly by my handbook. I personally do not get involved in these debates. I personally, have found this type of discussion to be fruitless, since it is usually a matter of people trying to prove a point.

  I never said anything about waiting for eternal life for instance.

  I also never said that Paul did not attain to the resurrection of the dead.

  You quote these things as if I said them but I did not. What I said was, that I thought in that particular verse, Paul was alluding to something like the first resurrection, or the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and that there was something -he said it not me -he had not yet attained to. So, if you do not need to take the time to read what I really said, what's the point of further discussion. May the Lord bless you, I have no point to prove, I was merely suggesting that there may be some alternatives that are not commonly examined.

  So I was basicly sharing some things I have been considering as possibilities for some of the issues I read in a very interesting thread, but I just am not disposed to debate those possibilities, and I don't think you read my post very carefully before you responded. But hey, thats alright. I just don't want to go there, I'm not saying you shouldn't. Peace, john

Quote from: eaglesway on January 30, 2010, 02:07:26 AM

What I have discovered is that when there is this much misunderstanding there is really not much use in continuing.

Ok

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I feel like you misunderstood what I was saying

Which is why I asked questions; but you, apparently don't like to be asked questions.

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and you feel like I misunderstand what you are saying.

And, apparently, you have.

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I was not defining the TM forum in any way, or asking anyone to fly by my handbook.

Something no one has ever claimed.

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I personally do not get involved in these debates.

Yet you entered the conversation.

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I personally, have found this type of discussion to be fruitless, since it is usually a matter of people trying to prove a point.

Yet, again, you entered this "fruitless" discussion?

Do tell us, when it comes to differences in opinions, what do you expect? For people to say they are wrong? That they are not sure of what they believe or why? For them not to support their position? Especially if asked about it? 

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I never said anything about waiting for eternal life for instance.

Yet you referred to it as a "hope" rather than a reality, even when speaking of Paul,  which is why I ASKED. I did not CLAIM anything about what you said. I ASKED.

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I also never said that Paul did not attain to the resurrection of the dead.

I asked you if you read what Paul said as him saying that he HAD NOT attained unto the resurrection of the dead and you answered with: "I read that there was something he had not yet attained to."

He was talking about "the resurrection of the dead" and I asked you about "the resurrection of the dead" and you answered that that he HAD NOT YET attained to something.

Yet I am not to understand you to be saying that the "something" that Paul had not attained to was "the resurrection of the dead", which is what I asked you about?

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You quote these things as if I said them but I did not.

Quoted what things? How did I misquote you by asking you some questions or by asking you to clarify what you were saying by telling me how you reconciled one passage of scripture with another?   

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What I said was, that I thought in that particular verse, Paul was alluding to something like the first resurrection, or the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and that there was something -he said it not me -he had not yet attained to.

Php 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Paul was talking about THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

I asked you about THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

You are saying here AGAIN that Paul HAD NOT YET ATTAINED unto whatever it was he was talking about.... which you are now claiming is something else? That Paul was "alluding to something like the first resurrection, or the spirits of righteous men made perfect...."

He was talking about the resurrection of the dead.

So if that was the "something" that he was talking about then why are you now claiming that you never said Paul didn't attain to it and are accusing me of misquoting you? That was the question that I asked; it was the answer that you gave and it is the answer that seem to be giving again now - saying that "he said it not me".

But, as I already point out, Paul said "I count it not"; he said that he continued to strive for it, NOT AS THOUGH HE HAD ALREADY ATTAINED.

That is not the same things (IMO) as him saying that he had not attained unto the resurrection of the dead. It is Paul saying that he counts it not and Paul was telling others (where unto they had ALREADY ATTAINED, as many as BE PREFECT) to walk by the same rule. 

That is something that I did not always notice and something that I feel is important to note and I feel it's significant. I was simply pointing that out to you and asking you to explain how you read the passage in light of that.

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So, if you do not need to take the time to read what I really said, what's the point of further discussion. May the Lord bless you, I have no point to prove, I was merely suggesting that there may be some alternatives that are not commonly examined.

I read what you said and I asked you some questions because of it.

When I asked you about Paul not attaining to the resurrection of the dead vs simply not counting it, you said that you read that passage as Paul saying that he HAD NOT ATTAINED unto something.

The something that he was talking about was the resurrection of the dead and the something that I asked you about was the resurrection of the dead. So if you did not answer the question that I asked then you shouldn't be upset with me for assuming that you did and for misunderstanding you because you didn't. Nor should you be accusing me of not actually reading what you said when you, apparently, weren't even answering the question that I asked.

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So I was basicly sharing some things I have been considering as possibilities for some of the issues I read in a very interesting thread, but I just am not disposed to debate those possibilities, and I don't think you read my post very carefully before you responded. But hey, thats alright. I just don't want to go there, I'm not saying you shouldn't. Peace, john

I read what you said. Apparently you didn't read my question well enough to know that I was asking about THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, even though that is EXACTLY what I asked you about. But, hey, that ok.

Like I said, fruitless

 :cloud9: If I said I had not attained to the resurrection of the (literal) dead, but I'm pressing on, ect., and I'm standing right in front of you, would that be newsworthy or deserving of a chapter or two on it?

Of course not; it's evident by virtue of the fact I haven't died yet. Just as it's evident to me that Paul was not talking about literal resurrection of a dead body ONLY. My  :2c: Blessings....