Is David still in his grave?

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi all,

Is there an actual tomb where the body of David lays? I have never heard of one.
Maybe David was a "type and shadow" which was "laid in the ground" when Christ came??

Any thoughts would be GREATLY appreciated!

Blessings,
Brian

[jabcat]

sacred-destinations.com -  "The Tomb of David is a much-revered site on Mount Zion in Jerusalem that has been variously owned and jealously guarded by Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout its history. Today it is a Jewish holy site.

Despite this site's long association with King David, it is highly unlikely that this is actually his burial place. The Bible records that David was buried on the eastern hill in the City of David (1 Kings 2:10), which is on the other side of Jerusalem."


jewishvirtuallibrary.org -    "According to the Bible, David was buried in the "City of David" presumably in the southeast of the present Siloam area (I Kings 2:10). Traditionally the later kings of the Davidic dynasty were also buried there and the Bible refers to the "sepulchers of the sons of David" (II Chron. 32:33), whose site was still known in the time of Nehemiah (Neh. 3:16). The tombs were in Jerusalem, but were never touched (Tos. B. B. 1:11). According to Josephus, Herod broke into David's tomb to rob it, but when he tried to go into the inner chamber tongues of fire shot out (Jos., Ant., 16:7:1). The site is also mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 2:29).

The tomb of David was probably destroyed at the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt (135 C.E.), and afterward the exact location of the site was forgotten. However, various sites were suggested by popular traditions over the ages and the one which became generally accepted was the place now called Mt. Zion. This tradition is about 1,000 years old..."

[CHB]

Here is an article you might find interesting. I don't know how accurate it all is but it makes pretty good sense.

The Location and Future Discovery of King David's Tomb
http://www.askelm.com/temple/t061001.htm

CHB

[Pierac]

Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

Did Lazarus live forever or die a second time? I see no scripture saying he died again, yet many have no trouble believing he did? Why?

Read your verse again in context... they did not rise with Christ, but at His death.

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (Ie. Jesus Died!)
Mat 27:51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; (Raised from the dead at the death of Jesus!) Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Mat 27:54  Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

There is only one first born from the dead!  Jesus never returned to the grave like Lazarus and the others... He is the first born of God's new creation! The many bodies of the saints were raised at Jesus' death and appeared only after his resurrection.  Do you see the importance of this?  Jesus rose 3 days later so they can not be the first born of the dead because Jesus is... therefore they were not raised to immortality.

Paul

[Pierac]

Hi Paul.  How do you understand the following?  I'm not sure what it means.   :dontknow:     Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 21:1  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

I don't really understand it, but it conforms with Job. Job some how spoke the truth.

So you see that as still future? Do you take that literally (as in a new physical creation)?

Chris,

How did Jesus teach you to pray?

Mat 6:9  "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10  'Your kingdom come.

Why would Jesus teach you to pray for something to come if it's already here?  Jesus is still calling out the few the reign in the future. All to be raised in the last day or day of the Lord! :2c:

Paul

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

Did Lazarus live forever or die a second time? I see no scripture saying he died again, yet many have no trouble believing he did? Why?

Read your verse again in context... they did not rise with Christ, but at His death.

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (Ie. Jesus Died!)
Mat 27:51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; (Raised from the dead at the death of Jesus!) Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Mat 27:54  Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

There is only one first born from the dead!  Jesus never returned to the grave like Lazarus and the others... He is the first born of God's new creation! The many bodies of the saints were raised at Jesus' death and appeared only after his resurrection.  Do you see the importance of this?  Jesus rose 3 days later so they can not be the first born of the dead because Jesus is... therefore they were not raised to immortality.

Paul

Paul, you first say that no Scriptures prove Lazarus stayed alive or was put back in the ground in death, then you quote that JC never stayed dead or in the ground of earth "Like Lazarus". so you found the scripture the put him back in the ground??? 

Then you quote that "no one rose from the dead before JC (well into eternal life anyway), but Scriptures do say that there was risen bodies of saints before JC...???  Matt. 17:3 Moses and others before Resurrection day.

and as for the Lords Prayer: I see it as this, JC taught them to Pray "thy" kingdom come. ((((   Before He Rose from the dead    )))) He did this to fulfill the pryor promises in Scripture of bringing them a kingdom ruled by a Christ. and not a Kingdom ruled by a Moses. Law-vs.-God's Grace. The Anointed.  Israel's Kingdom did come, and it forever will be ruled by one Son of God, although you and I know that they have not and mostlikely will never except Him, (real hard hearted )

And Paul, it don't matter about those saints rising "after" JC's Resurrection, but what does matter is that "THE SAINTS DID RISE WITH JC... AND I HAVE NOT PROBLEM BELIEVING THAT """""DAVID IS ONE OF THEM""""""  Meet of this threat....

Lee Damboise II

[Chris]

Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

Did Lazarus live forever or die a second time? I see no scripture saying he died again, yet many have no trouble believing he did? Why?

Read your verse again in context... they did not rise with Christ, but at His death.

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (Ie. Jesus Died!)
Mat 27:51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; (Raised from the dead at the death of Jesus!) Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Mat 27:54  Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

There is only one first born from the dead!  Jesus never returned to the grave like Lazarus and the others... He is the first born of God's new creation! The many bodies of the saints were raised at Jesus' death and appeared only after his resurrection.  Do you see the importance of this?  Jesus rose 3 days later so they can not be the first born of the dead because Jesus is... therefore they were not raised to immortality.

Paul

Why do you divide verses 52 and 53 from 54? 52 and 53 say that the tombs were opened and the dead were raised and 54 goes on to say that they came out of the graves.... AFTER Christ was resurrected?

You think that the tombs were opened and the dead raised when Christ DIED and then just stayed in their graves until after Christ was resurrected?

Besides, you are looking at Jesus being "the firstfruits of them that slept" only after a NATURAL truth, as it relates to His PHYSICAL BODY.

Jesus Christ is "the firstfruits of them that slept" because Jesus Christ (the Word of God; the incorruptible SEED) is He THROUGH?BY WHOM we "are" born again and pass from life unto death. That SEED is planted WITHIN US.

It is the same see BY WHICH Abraham walked IN FAITH and passed FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE, long before that 'seed' was "made flesh".

The "grave" that needs to be OPENED is "the body of this death" whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... SET ON FIRE OF HELL".

Is it not?

[Chris]

Hi Paul.  How do you understand the following?  I'm not sure what it means.   :dontknow:     Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 21:1  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

I don't really understand it, but it conforms with Job. Job some how spoke the truth.

So you see that as still future? Do you take that literally (as in a new physical creation)?

Chris,

How did Jesus teach you to pray?

Mat 6:9  "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 'Your kingdom come.

Why would Jesus teach you to pray for something to come if it's already here?  Jesus is still calling out the few the reign in the future. All to be raised in the last day or day of the Lord! :2c:

Paul

Are you claiming that the kingdom of God is NOT "within" and that it DOES COME "with observation", Paul?

Just because the kingdom is "here" doesn't mean that we have ENTERED INTO HIS REST, now does it?

So, how did Jesus teach 'me' to pray?  :laughing7:

How did Jesus teach US ALL to pray, Paul?  :winkgrin:

Just 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10  'Your kingdom come"?

How about the rest of the prayer?

Thy will be done IN EARTH, AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

When shall we forgive our debtors? When do we suffer temptations? Is that not NOW, as we walk in THIS world?

If so, then what is the difference between that which "in the earth" and that which is "in heaven"?

Was Adam not FIRST FORMED "out of the dust of the ground"? Is this treasure (CHRIST) not hidden "in EARTHEN vessels"?

Who is it that was called "a tiller of the ground"? And upon "what" does satan feast?

Adam was given dominion over THE EARTH. But Jesus Christ, of whom Adam was a figure, has dominion IN HEAVEN and is Lord OF ALL. Right?

So how is Christ's will done IN THE EARTH ~as~ IN HEAVEN?

Who resides "in the heavens" and how do they "get there"?

Pro 15:24  The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.

Jesus said:

Joh 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

He also said:

Joh 12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Luk 12:49  I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

You speak of "a thousand years" and associate it only with "the reign of Christ" and yet it is also associated with a reign OF DEATH. As it is not associated only with "THE DAY of the Lord" but also with THE NIGHT (which is "as YESTERDAY when it is PAST").

God had a covenant with both THE NIGHT and THE DAY.

One (THE DAY) He leads IN THE PILLAR OF A CLOUD

The other (THE NIGHT) He leads IN A PILLAR OF FIRE.  

Those who sleep (and to whom Christ comes, as a thief IN THE NIGHT) are "of this world", they are "in the earth" (IN HELL BENEATH).

Those to whom He has already COME (having been formed IN THEM) are "not of this world" (any more), as they ARE ABOVE (seated with Christ IN HEAVEN; they ARE "the heavens"; they ARE "the clouds"; they ARE "the stars in His right hand"; they ARE "the angels of the churches").

That which IS SEEN (the Word of God made flesh, Christ's physical death and resurrection) are given to us "as examples" so that we can see that which IS NOT SEEN.  

In order to "rightly divide the word of truth", we have to be "comparing spiritual things WITH SPIRITUAL" and to do that we have to be looking upon "that which IS NOT SEEN".

We are to know NO MAN after the flesh - NOT EVEN CHRIST. (2 Cor 5:16)

Correct?

[Pierac]

Paul, you first say that no Scriptures prove Lazarus stayed alive or was put back in the ground in death, then you quote that JC never stayed dead or in the ground of earth "Like Lazarus". so you found the scripture the put him back in the ground??? 

Then you quote that "no one rose from the dead before JC (well into eternal life anyway), but Scriptures do say that there was risen bodies of saints before JC...???  Matt. 17:3 Moses and others before Resurrection day.

Lee,
Moses and Elijah did not actually appear with Jesus! It was a vision as confirmed by Jesus Himself!

Mat 17:9  As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

So Why the Vision?

The purpose of the vision of the transfiguration was to confirm to Peter, James, and John that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. The New American Bible states on this verse:
"Moses and Elijah represent respectively law and prophecy in the Old Testament and are linked to Mount Sinai. They now appear with Jesus as witnesses to the fulfillment of the law and prophets taking place in the person of Jesus as he appears in glory."

See you at the resurrection! :wink1:
Paul

[CHB]

Hi All,

This is one confusing thread, at least to me.   :scratchhead:  Some of what is being said my brain just can't absorb. Maybe I am thinking physical instead of spiritual I don't know? I cannot tell which is being talked about half the time.

I always believed that everyone who physically dies are still dead and will remain dead until Christ returns and resurrects them. I am speaking strictly physical here.  

Now spiritually speaking, we have died, was buried, have been resurrected and are now sitting in Christ in the heavens. Both of these things I believed for many years.

Just recently I have wondered,...{not fully convinced}...if there wasn't a physical resurrection in 70 AD where John and all the rest of the firstfruits were literally taken to heaven. Jesus said that John would remain until he came. I believe if this happened that John was the only apostle who was living at the time this happened. (Luke 9:27)  (John 21:22)

I don't believe that people who have literally died since then have gone on to heaven. I believe Christ will return and resurrect those who have died since the resurrection of 70 AD,...if there was one?  

(1Cor. 15:20- 23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits:

Notice, it says "Christ the firstfruits". Christ should be the FIRSTFRUIT, singular, not the firstfruits, plural.   What if it should read like this, {Christ, the firstfruits}.  Christ being the first resurrection and then the firstfruits such as all the saints, and apostles.

Who are the firstfruits anyway? Aren't they Israelites, or the Bride of Christ?  (James 1:18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that WE SHOULD BE A KIND OF FIRSTFRUITS, of his creatures. (Rev. 14:4) "these were redeemed from among men BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS UNTO GOD and to the Lamb".

Paul speaks in the present when he says "Then WE which are alive and remain" (1Thess. 4:15&17).

Just trying to make sense of it all.   :dontknow: :sigh:

CHB

[Pierac]

Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

Did Lazarus live forever or die a second time? I see no scripture saying he died again, yet many have no trouble believing he did? Why?

Read your verse again in context... they did not rise with Christ, but at His death.

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (Ie. Jesus Died!)
Mat 27:51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; (Raised from the dead at the death of Jesus!) Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Mat 27:54  Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

There is only one first born from the dead!  Jesus never returned to the grave like Lazarus and the others... He is the first born of God's new creation! The many bodies of the saints were raised at Jesus' death and appeared only after his resurrection.  Do you see the importance of this?  Jesus rose 3 days later so they can not be the first born of the dead because Jesus is... therefore they were not raised to immortality.

Paul

Paul, you first say that no Scriptures prove Lazarus stayed alive or was put back in the ground in death, then you quote that JC never stayed dead or in the ground of earth "Like Lazarus". so you found the scripture the put him back in the ground???

Lee, your missing the context! Of course I have found scripture that puts Lazarus and the others back into the grave, but not by name or date!

Col 1:18  He (Jesus) is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

If any human was raised to immortality before Jesus... then Col 1:18 is a lie!


Paul

[Pierac]

Why do you divide verses 52 and 53 from 54? 52 and 53 say that the tombs were opened and the dead were raised and 54 goes on to say that they came out of the graves.... AFTER Christ was resurrected?

You think that the tombs were opened and the dead raised when Christ DIED and then just stayed in their graves until after Christ was resurrected?

First, I did not divide anything... Matthew did... It is very clear...


Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

It is quite clear, Jesus died, the veil of the temple was torn, the earth shook/rocks split, tombs opened and the saints who had fallen asleep were raised! All told per Matthew... not me!

Then Matthew continues... Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

I have no idea what they were doing for three days, but Matthew is clear... they were raised at Jesus' death... Not His resurrection. It's a documented fact!


Yet we know Jesus is the first born from the dead! The only one to be raised to immortatily!

Paul

[Pierac]

Who are the firstfruits anyway? Aren't they Israelites, or the Bride of Christ?  (James 1:18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that WE SHOULD BE A KIND OF FIRSTFRUITS, of his creatures. (Rev. 14:4) "these were redeemed from among men BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS UNTO GOD and to the Lamb".

Paul speaks in the present when he says "Then WE which are alive and remain" (1Thess. 4:15&17).

Just trying to make sense of it all.   :dontknow: :sigh:

CHB

The firstfruits are the chosen!

Mat 22:14  "For many are called, but few are chosen."

NASB  Joh 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS)  him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

CEV Joh 6:44  No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day.

Col 3:12  So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Net Eph 1:11  In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk  "we were appointed by lot."  The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

Only the chosen will reign with the Christ for a thousand years... Then the rest of the dead will rise!


Rev 20:4  Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 20:5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed



Paul

[Chris]

Why do you divide verses 52 and 53 from 54? 52 and 53 say that the tombs were opened and the dead were raised and 54 goes on to say that they came out of the graves.... AFTER Christ was resurrected?

You think that the tombs were opened and the dead raised when Christ DIED and then just stayed in their graves until after Christ was resurrected?

First, I did not divide anything... Matthew did... It is very clear...


Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

It is quite clear, Jesus died, the veil of the temple was torn, the earth shook/rocks split, tombs opened and the saints who had fallen asleep were raised! All told per Matthew... not me!

Then Matthew continues... Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

I have no idea what they were doing for three days, but Matthew is clear... they were raised at Jesus' death... Not His resurrection. It's a documented fact!


Yet we know Jesus is the first born from the dead! The only one to be raised to immortatily!

Paul

A documented FACT? Many believe that ET is "a documented FACT", as well.  :dontknow:

That is not the only way that you can read that passage.

There seems to me to more than just one thought being expressed, Matthew even jumps BACK to what was a happening BEFORE Christ was even buried AFTER he speaks of those coming out of the grave AFTER HIS RESURRECTION.

So yes, it CAN be read the way you read it:

Mat 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And {THREE DAYS LATER} came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Or it CAN be read differently (the way I read it, which makes much more sense to me):

Mat 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; {AND THREE DAYS LATER} And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

But regardless of which is "correct", we are still talking about physical events here (things that are seen/temporal). So how do those PHYSICAL events point to SPIRITUAL TRUTHS since we are told that it is "after two days" that we are REVIVED and on "the third day" that we are RAISED UP?

[CHB]

If any human was raised to immortality before Jesus... then Col 1:18 is a lie!

At the time this was written only Christ had immortality. 

CHB

[Chris]

Christ is THE FIRST-FRUIT.

Christ is THE CHOSEN

Christ is THE ELECT of God.

Christ is THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE

It is by being found IN HIM that we REIGN (a thousand years) WITH HIM (in LIFE, in THE DAY of the Lord).

There is also "a thousand years" (it being TWICE TOLD) associated with a reign OF DEATH (YESTERDAY, the night when it is PAST) as well.

But it is all ONE DAY to the Lord.

That ONE DAY is divided between THE NIGHT (death, darkness, those who sleep) and THE DAY (life, light, those who have passed from death UNTO LIFE).

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

Being found IN CHRIST we are "a new creation", "new creatures" created IN HIM. And while some have FALLEN ASLEEP, those who LIVE and BELIEVE know the power OF HIS RESURRECTION and they shall reign WITH HIM "a thousand years" in THE DAY of the Lord.

it is ALL about JESUS CHRIST.

Those things that are written testify OF HIM.  :declare: :bowing: :cheerleader:

[Pierac]

If any human was raised to immortality before Jesus... then Col 1:18 is a lie!

At the time this was written only Christ had immortality. 

CHB

Yes, but it was written decades after Jesus' death... and many had already died "in Jesus Name."  Even Peter wrote...  decades after Jesus' death... 2Pe 3:4  They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."

You will not be ressurected until the last day!

The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Christian Words and Christian Meanings, by John Burnaby (pp. 148, 149):

"Greek philosophers had argued that the dissolution which we call death happens to nothing but bodies, and that the souls of men are by their native constitution immortal. The Greek word for immortality occurs only once in the New Testament, and there it belongs to none but the King of Kings.... The immortality of the soul is no part of the Christian creed,  just as it is no part of Christian anthropology to divide soul and body and confine the real man, the essence of personality, to supposedly separable soul for which embodiment is imprisonment.... Jesus taught no doctrine of everlasting life for disembodied souls, such as no Jew loyal to the faith his fathers could have accepted or even understood. But Jewish belief was in the raising of the dead at the Last Day."

(Why then do churches constantly say that disembodied souls have gone to heaven or hell?)

Law and Grace, by Professor A. F. Knight (p. 79):
"In the Old Testament man is never considered to be a soul dwelling in a body, a soul that will one day be set free from the oppression of the body, at the death of that body, like a bird released from a cage. The Hebrews were not dualists in their understanding of God's world."


The protest of Justin Martyr against what later became orthodoxy, and remains so to this day, is no less incisive (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80):

"They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh. . . As in the case of a yoke of oxen, if one or other is loosed from the yoke, neither of them can plough alone; so neither can soul or body alone effect anything, if they be unyoked from their communion . . ." [i.e. the soul can have no separate existence]. For what is man but the reasonable animal composed of body and soul? Is the soul by itself man? No; but the soul of man. Would the body be called man? No; but it is called the body of man. If then neither of these is by itself man, but that which is made up of the two together is called man, and God has called man to life and resurrection, He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and body. . . Well, they say, the soul is incorruptible, being a part of God and inspired by Him. . . . Then what thanks are due to Him, and what manifestation of His power and goodness is it, if He purposed to save what is by nature saved. . . . but no thanks are due to one who saves what is his own; for this is to save himself. . . . How then did Christ raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body. . . . Why do we any longer endure those unbelieving arguments and fail to see that we are retrograding when we listen to such an argument as this: That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?"

Justin is here refuting the arguments of Gnosticism which denied the resurrection of the flesh. Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.


2Co 5:1  For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens... inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. (Without a body)

Paul

[CHB]

Paul, I don't believe you read my other post. I said "I don't believe we go on to heaven when we die". When I die physically I will stay in my tomb till I am resurrected, whenever that is. Spiritually I am sitting in Christ at this moment.

What I was saying was, could it be that there was a physical resurrection in the apostles time. All of the scriptures that were written like "Jesus only has immortality" and "no man has ascended up to heaven" would be true, because at the time this was written no man had ascended to heaven as yet.

What I am thinking is, all of the apostles were dead and in their graves, except for John when the resurrection occured. The resurrection hadn't passed when Paul wrote his epistles.

Does this make sense to any one?

CHB

[Chris]

2Co 5:1  For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens... inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. (Without a body)

Paul

And how are you not taking that "out of context" when Paul clearly says that we DO NOT desire to be UNCLOTHED (take this EARTHLY tabernacle OFF), but CLOTHED UPON in order for MORTALITY to be swallowed up OF LIFE?

You quote Paul saying that if this EARTHLY tabernacle were dissolved that we would know that WE HAVE "a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" and then you seem to claim that we don't yet HAVE it, but we WAIT FOR IT, even if we have been CLOTHED UPON WITH IT?

Why?

It is not THIS MORTAL (that infers a living being, not a rotting corpse) who must "put on" IMMORTALITY?

What has any of that got to do with dying (physically = being UNCLOTHED) FIRST? And why would you say that if others do not see it as you do that we are saying that we go "with a body".:mshock:

There is A NATURAL BODY and there is A SPIRITUAL BODY and when it comes to that body that is REAPED (versus that which is SEWN = FLESH which PROFITS NOTHING), GOD GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases Him.

Why assume that we need this earthly body to pop out of a grave at some future date in order to "have" a body?

[Pierac]

2Co 5:1  For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens... inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. (Without a body)

Paul

And how are you not taking that "out of context" when Paul clearly says that we DO NOT desire to be UNCLOTHED (take this EARTHLY tabernacle OFF), but CLOTHED UPON in order for MORTALITY to be swallowed up OF LIFE?

You quote Paul saying that if this EARTHLY tabernacle were dissolved that we would know that WE HAVE "a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" and then you seem to claim that we don't yet HAVE it, but we WAIT FOR IT, even if we have been CLOTHED UPON WITH IT?

Why?

It is not THIS MORTAL (that infers a living being, not a rotting corpse) who must "put on" IMMORTALITY?

What has any of that got to do with dying (physically = being UNCLOTHED) FIRST? And why would you say that if others do not see it as you do that we are saying that we go "with a body".:mshock:

There is A NATURAL BODY and there is A SPIRITUAL BODY and when it comes to that body that is REAPED (versus that which is SEWN = FLESH which PROFITS NOTHING), GOD GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases Him.

Why assume that we need this earthly body to pop out of a grave at some future date in order to "have" a body?

Chris, I think you miss the whole point.

Perhaps, I can make my point better by asking you a few questions.  Your response will make my point.

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.  

If one is already with Jesus with our spiritual bodies upon our death, then whom are in the tombs?

Note that Paul does not want you to be uninformed!

1Th 4:13  But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.  For if we believe
that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and
remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them
in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

If you are already with Jesus at your death... Then who are the dead that will rise first?

Your finding yourself in bed with the church of today...  They still believe the
lie of  Satan...
Gen 3:4  The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!

The God of this world still rules... The King has not returned to claim his Kingdom! Make no mistake... Paul told you so you would not be uninformed...
and the dead in Christ will rise first!


Paul

[Chris]

Chris, I think you miss the whole point.

Perhaps, I can make my point better by asking you a few questions.  Your response will make my point.

We'll see.   :winkgrin:

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.  

If one is already with Jesus with our spiritual bodies upon our death, then whom are in the tombs?

Perhaps the more relevant question is "what tombs"?

As the hour is not only "coming"; it NOW IS and he that hears IS PASSED from death UNTO LIFE (ie HAS eternal life).

Joh 5:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

As I pointed out already "the body of this death" that we live in is "full of dead men's bones" and its THROAT is "an open sepulcher".

Note that Paul does not want you to be uninformed!

1Th 4:13  But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

If you are already with Jesus at your death... Then who are the dead that will rise first?

If Jesus Christ said:

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Then you tell me, Paul:

WHO ARE "the dead in Christ" who shall RISE FIRST?

Then, perhaps, you can tell me (since you believe that I am so "uniformed") why Paul needed to COMFORT other BELIEVERS about "the dead in Christ" if those who were "dead" were BELIEVERS? Why would BELIEVERS be "grieving" for other BELIEVERS who have gone 'to sleep' (after a carnal truth, as you see it) before them?

Perhaps you might want to consider the possibility that Paul is talking about ALL OF THOSE WHO REMAIN... BOTH "the living" AND "the dead" (OF WHOM CHRIST IS LORD)?

Have you ever considered that? Or do you not consider WHY others might believe as they do before accusing them of being "uniformed"?  

Your finding yourself in bed with the church of today...  They still believe the lie of  Satan...

Gen 3:4  The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!

Well, while you accuse me of being in bed with the churches of today because (you say) I "believe the lie of the serpent", perhaps you aught to step back for a minute and consider the fact that THE JEWS accused JESUS CHRIST of "having a devil" FOR THE SAME REASON:

Joh 8:51-52 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Would you accuse JESUS of "having a devil", Paul?   :JCThink:

Would you accuse JESUS of "believing the lie of the serpent"?   :mshock:

You see Paul, what you fail to see is that which the Jews also failed to see (and what even I used to fail to see UNTIL someone else pointed it out TO ME  :thumbsup:); that THE SERPENT spoke concerning THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL - while Jesus Christ was speaking concerning THE TREE OF LIFE.

SAME WORDS!! ~ DIFFERENT TREE!!

Do you still believe that am siding with SATAN, Paul? (I sure HOPE NOT!! :declare:)

So now that we have established WHICH TREE Satan was referring to when he said "thou shalt not surely die", can you tell me if Adam died, when and how?

Do you believe that Adam was IMMORTAL? That PHYSICAL DEATH is the penalty for sin?  

If you do, then perhaps it is you who is "finding yourself in bed with the church of today".   :wink1:

If you do not and you believe that LIFE AND IMMORTALITY comes ONLY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST - THE LAST ADAM - then please do tell me what "death" it was that Adam (and all men) suffer due to sin? What "death" is it that Jesus Christ is "redeeming" us from?

The God of this world still rules... The King has not returned to claim his Kingdom! Make no mistake... Paul told you so you would not be uninformed...
and the dead in Christ will rise first!


Paul

Make no mistake Paul, I KNOW exactly who shall RISE FIRST.... THE DEAD/TARES!

I also know WHO "the dead" (the "tares") ARE.

I also know WHO Jesus sent TO REAP!

You see Paul, I used to agree WITH YOU until I realized WHO "the dead" really are.

Now if we can dispense with the insults, perhaps we can have a more productive conversation?  :flowerred:

Chris

[reFORMer]

Consider how Scripture here speaks.  The goal of not dying, of entering a higher realm in Christ is the one and only thing Paul is pursuing.  He considers it attainable.  Everything else is garbage to Him.

Philippians 3:7-15, 20-21 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
7 But things which were gain to me, these I have deemed a forfeit because of Christ.
8 But, to be sure, I am also deeming all to be a forfeit because of the superiority of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, because of Whom I forfeited all, and am deeming it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:
10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.
12 Not that I already obtained, or am already perfected. Yet I am pursuing, if I may be grasping also that for which I was grasped also by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, not as yet am I reckoning myself to have grasped, yet one thing -- forgetting, indeed, those things which are behind, yet stretching out to those in front --
14 toward the goal am I pursuing for the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus.
15 Whoever, then, are mature, may be disposed to this, and if in anything you are differently disposed, this also shall God reveal to you.
20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
21 Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.

What I'm understanding from this is that the door to not dying has been open at least since Jesus died, rose victorious from the dead and ascended into glory, sending forth His Spirit into us to accomplish the same victory.  Whatever God does is by faith.  I expect some progressive series of words with enabling power to emerge into our consciousness.  Whether direct or through other vessels, it is God's own summons into a higher dimension in Christ.  It is possible this call remains in a place we can come into.  However it happens, it has to be available without respect of persons.  Whoever meets the qualifications may enter.  If all we can do is wait for some distant day, then  the book of Philippians is junk.

[Pierac]

Make no mistake Paul, I KNOW exactly who shall RISE FIRST.... THE DEAD/TARES!

I also know WHO "the dead" (the "tares") ARE.

I also know WHO Jesus sent TO REAP!

You see Paul, I used to agree WITH YOU until I realized WHO "the dead" really are.

Now if we can dispense with the insults, perhaps we can have a more productive conversation?  :flowerred:

Chris

Sorry Chris,

You confused an observation with an insult!

All is of God! Including our specific beliefs!

If you see THE DEAD/TARES rising first! Then so shall it be for you! God's will be done for us both! To God be the glory!

See ya at the resurrection! :wink:

Paul

[Pierac]

Consider how Scripture here speaks. The goal of not dying, of entering a higher realm in Christ is the one and only thing Paul is pursuing.  He considers it attainable.  Everything else is garbage to Him.

We can read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where Paul is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ:

"And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord."

This is when Paul expects to be with the Lord, at the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ, not before then. Let us see another wonderful example of when Paul plans to be with Jesus. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 states:
"We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembly with him."

We can see that Paul expects the Thessalonians and himself to assemble with Christ at "His Coming."

Hey, but that's just my  :2c:

Paul

[Zeek]

Make no mistake Paul, I KNOW exactly who shall RISE FIRST.... THE DEAD/TARES!

I also know WHO "the dead" (the "tares") ARE.

I also know WHO Jesus sent TO REAP!

You see Paul, I used to agree WITH YOU until I realized WHO "the dead" really are.

Now if we can dispense with the insults, perhaps we can have a more productive conversation?  :flowerred:

Chris

Sorry Chris,

You confused an observation with an insult!

All is of God! Including our specific beliefs!

If you see THE DEAD/TARES rising first! Then so shall it be for you! God's will be done for us both! To God be the glory!

See ya at the resurrection! :wink:

Paul

if the tares rise first, then that makes them the first fruits, the few chosen.