Jesus said watch

[Doug]

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus addressed two questions from his disciples. He had just told them that the temple would be thrown down, and not one stone left upon another, and so they asked, (1) When shall these things be? and (2) What is the sign of your coming, and the end of the world? [Matthew 24:3]

One of the things that Jesus mentioned in the prophecy was a somewhat mysterious "abomination of desolation," in Matthew 24:15. He referred to the prophet Daniel, and said "whoso readeth, let him understand."

The prophecy in Daniel 9:27 refers to something, called "overspreading abominations" in the KJV, that causes desolation, that is to be eventually destroyed or overcome.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Many of the Protestant reformers identified the abomination of desolation with either papal traditions, or the papacy itself. One site lists the following men who taught this: John Milicz, John Wycliffe, Matthias of Janow, R. Wimbledon, Walter Brute, John Huss, Martin Luther, Andreas Osiander, Nicolaus von Amsdorf, Nicholas Ridley, John Bale, John Jewel. Many others (practically all the Reformers) identified antichrist with the papacy.
http://redeemerfw.org/resources/reformers_antichrist.pdf

To counter the teaching of the Protestant Reformers, Jesuit priests Francisco Ribera (1539-1591), and Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621) proposed that antichrist was not the Papacy, but a literal human who would deceive the Jews, and reign in a Jewish temple at the end of the age.

The dispensationlism of John N. Darby and his followers embraces the interpretations of Ribera and Bellarmine in claiming that the abomination of desolation is yet to occur, during a seven year long period of tribulation and persecution of the Jews. Darby added the idea that it occurs after the rapture of the church to heaven.

The dispensationalist scholars, following Darby, suggest the abomination of desolation is an idolatrous image, that is to be set up in a rebuilt Jewish temple at Jerusalem. John F. Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary connected the references in Daniel to an abomination of desolation to events during the reign of Antiochus IV, the king of Syria who made the temple of God desolate, by dedicating it to Zeus Olympus. He suggested a similar event will occur again in another Jewish temple. In a discussion of Daniel 9:27, Walvoord wrote:

The last part of verse 27 seems to describe the desecration of the temple in the words "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." The expression the overspreading of abominations is better translated "upon the wing of abominations," or as Leupold suggests, "upon the wing of abominable idols." The Hebrew is rendered "abomination of desolation" in 1 Maccabees 1:54; Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14 and is supported by the most ancient translations including the Septuagint, Theodotion, and the Vulgate. The identification of the expression in Daniel 9:27 with these other references as well as Daniel 11:31 and 12:11 make the meaning here clear. Many fantastic explanations have been given of the use of the word wing. Keil after Kliefoth takes the wing as reference "'to idolatry with its abominations, because that shall be the power which lifts upward the destroyer and desolator, carries him, and moves with him over the earth to lay waste' (Klief.)." Young gives a preferable view after disposing of many other suggestions when he states, "The word apparently refers to the pinnacle of the temple which has become so desecrated that it no longer can be regarded as the temple of the Lord, but as an idol temple... The wing of the temple (Matt. 4:5; Luke 4:8) is the summit of the temple itself." The word abomination used by Christ in Matthew 24:15 may be an allusion to Antiochus in Daniel 11:31, but in Daniel 12:11, it clearly refers to the future stopping of the daily sacrifices, forty-two months before the second advent of Christ. The 1,290 days, actually forty-three months, seem to extend beyond the second advent to the beginning of the millennial kingdom. That which Antiochus did in a small way in the second century B.C. will become a worldwide persecution of Israel and a stopping of their sacrifices in the future great tribulation. According to Revelation 13, the future world ruler of the time of the great tribulation will not only take to himself absolute political power but will demand the worship of the entire world, will blaspheme the true God, and persecute the saints (Rev 13:4-7). His period of great power will terminate at the second advent of Christ. Like the desolation of Daniel 9:27, which is going to continue until the consummation, the desolation according to this passage will continue until the consummation pictured dramatically in Revelation 19 when the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. This will be the terminus ad quern of the seventy sevens of Daniel and coincides with the second advent of Jesus Christ to the earth. Daniel The Key To Prophetic Revelation http://www.walvoord.com/page.php?page_id=250

Walvood's views are based on an assumption that Daniel wrote primarily about the Jews, and about a literal temple, rather than the church, which is represented by a temple in the New Testament. [Ephesians 2:20] However, the previous verse in the prophecy tells of the destruction of both the city and the temple. Did Daniel really write of events to occur in a literal temple, that was already destroyed?

Daniel wrote in verse 26, "the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." If this is referring to the destruction of the earthly city of Jerusalem and its temple, there is no room for any rebuilding of the temple, as desolations are determined "unto the end of the war." So how could an abomination be set up in it, if it no longer exists?

Walvoord's approach disregards the statement of the apostle Peter, that the apostles wrote about the gospel, and ministered not to themselves, or to the Jews, but "unto us," that is, the church; and that they wrote "by the Spirit of Christ which was in them." [1 Peter 1:9-12] Peter's insight suggests that Christians ought to interpret all Old Testament prophecy in the light of the gospel, and from a New Testament point of view.

An atheist critic would be expected to reason that Daniel could not have known anything about the church which Christ was to establish in the future, and similarly, an unbelieving Jew might be expected to interpret Daniel as if Christ had not inspired the prophets, who therefore knew nothing of the church age, but the Christian view is quite different, as illustrated by James in Acts 15:15-18, and by the apostle Peter's comments on prophecy. Christ foretold the church's history through the prophets. Peter said, "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." [2 Peter 1:21]

Looking at Daniel's prophecy from a Christian perspective, rather than an atheistic, of Jewish one, the events in Jerusalem in the second century BC can be viewed as a type of the desolation of the church by the spirit of antichrist, throughout its history. John said this had already begun is his time. [1 John 4:3]

No rebuilt temple in Jerusalem is needed to find the evidence of the antichrist today; it simply takes a little wisdom and insight, to understand that Jesus was referring to the desolate state to which the church was to come, and which he alluded to when he wondered, "when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" [Luke 18:8] The New Testament identifies the church as the holy city, and Jerusalem, and as the temple of God.

I suggest the desolation of the temple described in Daniel's prophecies was a type or figure of the spiritual desolation and apostasy, that has occurred in the church at the end of the age. As Patrick Fairbairn wrote, in the quote below, the meaning of the abomination of desolation would be perceived only by thoughtful, serious minds. 

The Imperial Bible-dictionary http://books.google.ca/books?id=ZMECAAAAQAAJ ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. This striking and somewhat enigmatical expression occurs properly but once in the English Bible; namely, in the address delivered by our Lord to his disciples respecting the destruction of Jerusalem and the last days, Mat. xxiv. 15; Mar. xiii. 11. But as there introduced it is given as a quotation from the prophet Daniel--"When ye shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand"--although when we turn to Daniel the precise expression is not found in the English Bible. This arises from the translation of the Septuagint being adopted by our Lord (*** *** ***), the exact equivalent to which in English is "abomination of desolation," while the original in Hebrew slightly differs. The passage actually referred to is Da. ix. 27, where our translators render "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." This, however, is not the most accurate rendering; it should rather be "over top of abominations (will be) the desolator," or destroyer. And so again in two other passages, which are generally understood to point to the Maccabean times- "And they shall place (or set up) the abomination, the desolator," ch. xi. 31, and "till the abomination that desolates," ch. xii. 11. The chief difference among commentators, as to the meaning of the expression, has respect to the point, whether the abomination, which somehow should carry along with it the curse of desolation, ought to be understood of the idolatrous and corrupt practices which should inevitably draw down desolating inflictions of vengeance, or of the heathen powers and weapons of war that should be the immediate instruments of executing them. There appear to be conclusive reasons for understanding the expression of the former. 1. By far the most common use of the term abomination or abominations, when referring to spiritual things, and especially to things involving severe judgments and sweeping desolation, is in respect to idolatrous, and other foul corruptions. It was the pollution of the first temple, or the worship connected with it by such things, which in a whole series of passages is described as the abominations that provoked God to lay it in ruins, 2 Ki. xxi 2-13; Je. vii. 10-14; Eze. v. 11; vii. 8,9,20-23. And our Lord very distinctly intimated, by referring on another occasion to some of these passages, that as the same wickedness substantially was lifting itself up anew, the same retributions of evil might certainly be expected to chastise them, Mat. xxi. 13. 2. When reference is made to the prophecy in Daniel it is coupled with a word, "Whoso readeth let him understand," which seems evidently to point to a profound spiritual meaning in the prophecy, such as thoughtful and serious minds alone could apprehend. But this could only be the case if abominations in the moral sense were meant; for the defiling and desolating effect of heathen armies planting themselves in the holy place was what a child might perceive. Such dreadful and unseemly intruders were but the outward signs of the real abominations, which cried for vengeance in the ear of heaven. The compassing of Jerusalem with armies, therefore, mentioned in Lu. xxi. 20, ready to bring the desolation, is not to be regarded as the same with the abomination of desolation; it indicated a further stage of matters. 3. The abominations which were the cause of the desolations are ever spoken of as springing up from within, among the covenant people themselves, not as invasions from without. They are so represented in Daniel also, ch. xi. 30,32; xii. 9,10; and that the Jews themselves, the better sort of them at least, so understood the matter, is plain from 1 Mac. i. 54-57, where, with reference to the two passages of Daniel just noticed, the heathen-inclined party in Israel are represented, in the time of Antiochus, as the real persona who "set up the abomination of desolation and built idol altars;" comp. also 2 Mac. iv. 15-17. (See on the whole subject, Hengstenberg on the Genuineness of Daniel, ch. iii. § 3; and Christology, at Da. ix. 27, with the authorities there referred to.)

If the prophecy of the abomination of desolation is considered spiritually, the church is what is made desolate. The is what the Reformers believed. The church is the focus of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks, not the Jews, or a literal temple. The cause of the church's desolation must be the proliferation of false teachings, that have divided and scattered the saints among thousands of sects and denominations, and threaten the church's existence. The literal interpretation of Daniel's prophecies proposed by Ribera and Bellarmine, revived by the dispensationalists, contributes to the desolation.

Daniel's phrase "that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" or the desolator, refers to the spiritual warfare that Christ wages against his enemies, which destroys all the flawed interpretations, and false teachings. His victory is assured.

Doug

[marie glen]

I find it interesting that Revelation chapter 13 tells how a 666 abomination will be set up by a man... basically saying, we have this man's number and it's  666.. Now I agree to a point with those who say the papacy was involved, but that was yesteryear.. just like there was an abomination in 70a.d. and also in the day of Antiochus Ephiphany, I think Rome was also a beast which was, wasn't, then was.

It's also interesting to me that the beast of Rev 13:1 through 10 is a governing, what I think of as a world beast or body. But the second beast of rev 13 (verses 11-18) is referred to as a man, person or individual, but which I've come to think of as an office of man.. And this office is pinpointed in verse 13 because it's the one which "brought down fire from the sky in the sight of men" which fire convinces man (vs 14) to rebuild the world beast/body/panel(?) (which expired, its head not adhering afterall? and one day the head/same office, will step in and give to the world beast breath/authority).

This fire I also believe is the Sixth Seal.. The thing about the Seals is, is there's a different sort of seal here, as in a lock, which helps greatly to seal prophetic vision for a time, in that each seal is fully described in chapter Six, both as it is when first Opened, but also as it is in its fully progressed state at the very 'end'.. That's why the horses are galloping, the four horsemen of the apocalypse who are the first four Seals, because the seals are elements of the latter age, and those seals progress/gallop.. But since the seals are fully described here (so early in the narrative) as a blend of what they are when first opened/appearing, along with what they are when in full bloom at the end of the age, things which occur very late in the vision/prophecy are described here in chapter 6 so early in the narrative. This I think of as some fancy footwork (of the horses) which hides much of the vision for many days..

Thus, I believe the fire of Revelation 13:13 is the same exact thing as the (new kind of) wind which is the Sixth Seal of 6:12-16. Verse 15 mentions men who hide themselves in dens and caves of the earth, which to me strongly suggests the bomb shelters etc built after the new sort of fire unleashed upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki (an occurrence certainly worthy of mention in Bible prophecy and quite a landmark).

Going along with the same theme, note the Fourth Seal.. a pale horse and death and the grave follow after him.. the interpretation or word used here is the greek word hades, the realm of the dead, but a more perfect translation would be grave like the sheol of the old testament, which had to do with the dust and all.. (Isaiah 14's worms and maggots as an ending or resulting place of Lucifer son of the morning) - hence one of the progressing elements of men's latter age is the grave which includes the mass grave when and wherever it occurs all during this latter age of man. The fourth seal being the element of the mass grave and mass death however it occurs, pestilences including pestilences of chemicals and wild beasts, beasts usually referring to governments..

But mostly I'm talking about a cross reference of Revelation 13:13 (the fire of the 2nd beast of rev 13) and the opening of the Sixth Seal in chapter 6, verses 12 through 16, as one and the same event, and as a pinpointing of where to expect the last anti-christ to appear, whether in said office at the time, or post that office(?)
- Note the beginning of chapter 7, how this (new) wind is held back/paused, for a time.....
er, thanks for listening..:smile: