abomination that causes desolation

[Doug]

Good post, and I think your understandings are certainly worth considering.  It's a big discussion, and I admittedly see bits and pieces, and agree with bits and pieces of various POVs, and probably understand even less.  There are "sold-out" believers with one presentation, "sold-out" believers with another.  Things to pray about and look to the Lord for understanding.  As I read your post, I was reminded of the concept of literal and spiritual, and multiple layers to the scriptures.  Thanks  :thumbsup:

Here are some more comments on the book:

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

David P. Crews identifies the abomination of the desolation of Matthew 24:15 with the presence of "Roman standards - the flag-like banners" in the Jerusalem temple at the time of its destruction in 70 AD. He wrote:

Jesus was using this imagery as another warning sign for the disciples to watch out for. At the first instance of this activity by the Romans, they were to react. What were the disciples supposed to do? Verse 16 makes it plain -    "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." It was time to run - run for their physical lives! They had to get out of the city of Jerusalem and the political country of Judea if they were to be saved from the Roman invasion and destruction. When they saw the signs, they were to get out fast and not even take time to gather their personal belongings. It should be plain that this has nothing to do with us today.

However, by the time the Roman standards were set up in the temple, the city had fallen, and much of its population, reduced to starvation, had perished, either by famine, or fire, or sword. It would have been too late to flee to the mountains then. And, Jesus also said,

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
   
This saying is also found in Mark 8:35; Luke 9:24, 17:33.

So when Jesus said, "flee into the mountains" he clearly was not referring to people fleeing for their physical lives, as Crews claimed. His warning does not fit the events of 70 AD, as the "sign" of "Roman standards - the flag-like banners" in the Jerusalem temple, that Crews identifies as the abomination of desolation would have appeared too late for anyone to flee.

It is revealing to see just how these prophecies and predictions actually came true during the first part of the war. According to Josephus, the first attack on the city of Jerusalem in A.D. 66, led by the Roman general Cestius Gallus, got the Romans into the city and up to the walls and gate of the Holy Temple itself, which had been commandeered as a fortress by the radical Jews who wanted to fight it out with the Romans. This act of turning the Temple into a military fortress, full of armaments and violence instead of reverence and prayers, was one of the greatest abominations of it. The Romans advanced under their shields to the actual gates of the Temple, which they intended to burn open. Then, something very strange happened. Gallus, at the verge of military success, decided for some unknown reason to retreat - and he took his men out of Jerusalem entirely! As a Jewish historian, Josephus was at a loss to explain this withdrawal by Gallus, whom he stated "retired from the city, without any reason in the world." Importantly, Josephus states that after this event, many people "swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink." We can turn to the history by Eusebius once again to discover what really happened. He wrote: "The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here, those that believed in Christ [had] removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea." The town of Pella was near the Sea of Galilee, but it lay outside of the country of Judea, in the political region called Decapolis. This was out of the path of the invading Romans.

If accurate, the account indicates some escaped to Pella, which is located not in the mountains, but in the Jordan Valley, so it does not fit the prophecy of Jesus, who specified mountains. Crews continues:

Can we explain why the Roman general withdrew so unexpectedly and suddenly from Jerusalem? Josephus actually stated the correct answer earlier in the passage quoted above when he states: "It was, I suppose, owing to the aversion God had already at the city and the sanctuary, that he [Gallus] was hindered from putting an end to the war that very day." Indeed, it was God who was making war on Judea. In Zechariah 14:2, we hear God say:    "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it..."    [NIV] God had brought forth the Romans as his tool of punishment and it was God who arranged that a period of time should be provided, as he had promised, for the escape of the believing Christians. That time was provided, and the Christians did flee!

Zechariah 14:2 does not fit the events of 70 AD, because in Zechariah's prophecy all nations were to come against Jerusalem. In the siege of Jerusalem in the first century, the armies were Roman armies, not those of all nations. And neither was half the city taken, but the entire city was destroyed. And neither did Christ come, and fight against the Romans, and deliver the Jews. Neither did the Mount of Olives cleave in the midst, forming a great valley, through which the people could flee. None of these prophecies of Zechariah fit the events of 70 AD.

Zechariah 14:2-3
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

How could Crews mistake the events Zechariah wrote about, as applying to 70 AD? He must have been blinded by his obsession with the preterist paradigm! Zechariah did not say the nations coming against Jerusalem were a punishment from God. It plainly says God was going to fight against those nations. And Crews must have read this, but apparently, his mind was blinded to what it says.

"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

Is that a description of events in 70 AD? Hardly. Those who say that God gathered "all nations against Jerusalem to battle" in 70 AD are simply deceived! And to claim that God fought against the invaders, but then changed his mind, and decided to annihilate the Jews instead, makes him appear weak, and fickle. And it is blasphemous, IMHO.

No wonder Crews abandoned his faith! No wonder he prefers disbelief, to such an absurd doctrine!

When Jesus said to "flee to the mountains" in Matt. 24:16 and Luke 21:21, he was not referring to literal mountains! Rather, he meant seek God's righteousness, and the  promises of God that the mountains represent. David said, "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains." [Psalm 36:6] The mountains were prominent parts of the promised land, so they represent the promises of God, and all the scriptures. Isaiah said, "And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted." [Isaiah 49:11] The mountains Jesus refers to represent the great promises of God, and they help us find the way, if we keep our objective, and our promised inheritance in mind. In Zechariah's prophecy, the "way" we should flee lies through the valley formed in the midst of the Mount of Olives, when it cleaves in the midst. The two halves of the mountain represent the two popular but flawed interpretations of the Olivet Discourse of Jesus, which is represented by the Mount of Olives.

Doug

[CHB]

The effect of Jesus is spreading throughout the world. Just as sin entered and has polluted man, even the ones we love we have watched ourselves and them suffer greatly, but now we get to see His effect cause restitution to their beings. The growth of freedom and joy and peace invade mankind, take over this world and establish again, the garden of Eden. This will happen internally, and externally.

Dallas, I am sorry but I don't see the effect of Jesus spreading. All I see is murder, rape, stealing, you name it and it gets worse everyday. Now I hope this changes Lord knows we need the change but it seems to get worse instead of better.


Quote from: Dallas
Not if that weren't enough, because just being healed and set free fom the sin and death in my personal life wasn't enough we are now able to become included into God's life, included into what He does. We will become priests and act as priests...

I thought the Priests were only of Israel. I don't think the title of priest applies to us. Why will there be a need for priests? Their job was to serve in the temple with offerings and sacrificing, which is done away with. Will you explain how this will be possible?

CHB

Hello;

The quicker issue to deal with, the Isreal Priesthood thing. Preists were whom? They where the "ones who do the things of God"

God is still doing "things" and still has His "ways" WE as preists are included into those, for the Isrealite God things were sacrifice, ritual, and worship.... for US it's a totally different ball of yarn!!
Priests of Christ are to be the fullness of His promises, 2 Corinthinas, "For all the promises are yes and amen in Him" We proclaim His finished work and loose the truth on this world...tormenting it with the goodness it is not used to.

Let me look at my notes, I will show you some real cool stuff about who we are as Priests!


As far as the view of the world;

Our "lens" we look through, tends to define the world we see.

This statement is so very true... just think that once because you saw a God with a hell you saw a bunch of sinners, not that you see God as inclusive you see Him as merciful....

Because I see His work completed, I see the effects...however I also think there is more to it than just chosing it as, that could easily become deliusion. But we can't seperate what we believe with what we see very easily.

That's why we need the foundation to be wrong and let the saftey of Christ allow us to remain righteous while we are yet wrong.

For instance, take a look at the world as a whole, we as a civilization, even on a world basis are more mindful of womens rights and human rights, racial equality, religous acceptance and tollerance. One thing I would also like to pull out is the turning up on sin...the worse things seem is because we are paying more attention to it. The more we are aware is a good thing! The more we will see, the more we will need and the more we will reach out for Him.

Hi Dallas,

I guess here is where our minds separate. Am not saying that I can't change my mind on this but at this time I can't see what you are seeing.  As I said before about two years ago I couldn't see that Daniel had been fulfilled, now I see that it has, so be patient with me God isn't finished with me yet.   :happygrin:

From what I see at this time, Christ sacrifice changed the priesthood, there is no need for any priest any more. Even if there was it would only be Israel that this would apply to. There has never been a Gentile priest as far as I know and I don't see that there will be in the future. If you can show me the scriptures on that I would appreciate it.

Another thing I see is that Christ in scripture turns over his ruler ship to the Father (1Cor. 15:28). He will no longer need to be King over anyone. When all is in all Christ will be our brother and we will be sons and daughters of the Father. No need for kings, priests, we will be equal with Christ. (1Cor. 15:25) says "he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet". According to what you have said this has been fulfilled.

How do you explain this away?

CHB

[sheila]

 Mt 12;25 and 24;15  Daniel 26  Every kingdom divided against

itself will be ruined

 so when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation

  Luke 11;17  any kingdom divided against itself shall be ruined

  that is exactly what happened when Jesus came to that temple in Jerusalem...the leaders were making merchandise
sects and divisions were rampant,rebellion...and they received not the true HEIR of the Kingdom..rejected the annointed of the Lord.

 of course they would fall for that[ a house divided against itself can not stand...the abomination of offspring of vipers was in the Lord's temple]

 the parable of the vineyard that was let out....

  Now we see the house of Christianity divided against itself

all the denominations..it also will be unable to stand... also

the abomination of making merchandise and greed of religious rulers..we also see the rejecting of the wisdom of God in favour of itching ears..etc. false prophets,lying doctrines...this is the very circumstances that we have been found in and called out of.

 do you see the nations turning against 'christianity" I do.. Babylon has received judgement of a harlot


it is quickly becoming a 'hate' crime to speak of the judgements of God as to what is righteous

 the falling away of the teachings of Christ has caused the gospel to be spoken of abusively[blasphemy of what is holy ] all the perverted interpretations and acts of lawlessness has caused it to stink...and governments are peering at these 'trouble-makers'

 just as Roman forces were tired of the rebellion etc,too..and the disturbing of their peace and reign

 was the mount of Olives cleaved? yes. there was a division of the promises figuratively..when Jerusalem that was refused their sent Messiah..the house was divided...to those that held the promises[unbeleiving in Christ jews] desolation occurred

their house fell.. unacceptable sacrifice[Uzziah] caused a great splitting[division] fleeing by my mountain valley..was leaving that city Jerusalem..before it's fall...when the division occurred

 [king Uzziah had leprosy until the day he died. He lived in a seperate house]  Leviticus 14;44  if the mildew reappears in the house AFTER the stones have been torn out, and the house scraped and plastered[white-wash] the preist is to go and examine it. And if the mildew has spread in the house, it is
a DESTRUCTIVE mildew;  THE HOUSE IS UNCLEAN IT MUST BE TORN DOWN- IT'S STONES TIMBERS AND ALL IT'S PLASTER

....these are the regulations for infectious skin diseases and mildew[Rev 16;2]

 Now, it is the time of His return...and He has called us out of the leprous house.....He inspects us...Lev 13 Regulations about infectious skin diseases...as our Preist  yes, He inspects us
for spots and blemishes....is it just skin deep[outer court]..or has it entered our heart[holy of holies]

 Cleansing from infectious skin diseases [Leviticus 14]

  John 13;12 When He had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place.'Do you understand what I have done for you? He asked them. You call me
'teacher' and 'Lord', and rightly so, for that is what I AM

 Now that I, your Lord and TEACHER, have washed your feet

 YOU ALSO SHOULD WASH ONE ANOTHERS FEET


 Think about immediately a

fter he did this[washed feet] one

wasn't clean[Judas] evidently the Lord saw a spot on that foot

He washed and realized it was more than skin deep..He then

predicted  'he who shares my bread has lifted up his heel

against me'...I am telling you now, before it happens, so that

when it does happen YOU WILL BELIVE THAT I AM HE


 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Wow Sheila, that was GOOD...... :thumbsup: Blessings....

[noname]

the "jews" are on the brink of denying their King again who has shed His blood for mankind...animal sacrifices will commence again on 16 March 2010 after a break of 2000 years...

is this the abomination that causes desolation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7VVcc7uo2U&feature=player_embedded

[Dallas]

the "jews" are on the brink of denying their King again who has shed His blood for mankind...animal sacrifices will commence again on 16 March 2010 after a break of 2000 years...

-noname

This isn't possible, there is a Muslim mosque sitting on the temple mount, do you suppose in within 1 month they are going to route Islam, storm the gates, retake the site and re-build the temple?

Not possible, and just like the "country of Israel" it will likewise be a counterfiet temple, with counterfiet sacrifices.

This is not the abomination of desolation, unless Jesus was foollish for warning His freinds to watch for it. Why would Jesus tell his friends to watch for it knowing full well they had nothing to fear?

[sheila]

 basically what this 'manifested' plan is showing, is a spirit that

desires a temple built by human hands to resume sacrificies

for righteousness per old law covenant arrangement.


   All the saints need to be on guard for this spirits agenda.

  there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed.


   Be aware of such powers and principalities....there are many

   beware a 'work of human hands to re-establish ritual worship

   and the temple building/ministrys of Judas preists

  for a righteous standing with God' void of the spirit of Christ

and an impossible scenario of itself. The religious sanhedrin

spirit continues it's operation in the  unregenerated earth.

[marie glen]

hi! I've come to believe the abomination of desolation of the 'last' days (as opposed to the one in 70a.d. or in Antiochus Epiphany's day) will have to do with depopulation as I believe it to be the 666 apparatus.. This belief is due to Daniel's almost last verses, the ones of Daniel 12;11 & 12 about how from the time the "daily" sacrifice/place of daily thanksgiving and prayer in Jerusalem, is removed/taken away (Mt 24:1&2) to when the abomination of desolation will be set up, shall be three years and six months (all 30 day hebrew  months) and how Daniel wrote "happy is the one who makes it to the three years, six months and 45 days". It just seems to me to be an obvious thing as to what happy event occurs to bring an end to the desolating abomination? (The return of Jesus) And so I figure the desolating apparatus hums for 45 days, with the last "ten days" (rev 2:10) becoming critical when it goes from not being able to buy and sell, to will be killed..