Is David still in his grave?

[sheila]

 Listen to what God said when deliverance from bondage

was worked through Moses. Exodus 5;2 Pharoah said ,'who is

the Lord that I should obey him and let Israel go"

  Then they said .' THE GOD OF THE HEBREWS HAS MET WITH

US. NOW....LET US TAKE A 3 DAY JOURNEY INTO THE DESSERT

TO OFFER SACRIFICES TO THE LORD OUR GOD,

 OR HE MAY STRIKE US WITH PLAGUES OR THE SWORD


  Luke 13;32  go tell that fox,'I will drive out demons today and

tomorrow and on the third day I will reach my goal'

 IN ANY CASE...I MUST KEEP GOING.....TODAY...TOMORROW

 AND THE NEXT DAY- FOR SURELY NO PROPHET CAN DIE

  OUTSIDE JERUSALEM!![v35 Look! your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord']

  Note the similiarity  Moses delivery of Israel in slavery....

 and Jesus delivery of the Israel of God to bondage of sin

  both into the promises of God[promised land/kingdom]

  evil generation that perished in the wilderness wandering 40

   years[ad70]

 interesting, huh?

  what if...the raising up of the tares and the raising up of Pharoah[for this cause I raised you up] and  hardening of the heart IS THE RESURRECTION OF THE UNRIGHTEOUS?

[rosered]

   Matthew 22;43

   How is it,then....that David..speaking by the spirit

   CALLS HIM LORD?

   IF THEN....DAVID  CALLS HIM LORD

  HOW CAN HE BE HIS SON?

 A Son is born and savior given
1:31   And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:  


Luk 1:33   And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

 the Throne of David his father
 the word Patriarch is only mentioned twice \ \  once for David the other For Abraham

Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.  
Hbr 7:4 Now consider how great this man [was], unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.  

lots of things  being revealed today  :icon_flower:

[rosered]

2 Samuel 7
1And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;

2That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.

3And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee.

4And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

5Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

6Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.

7In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

8Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

9And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

10Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

17According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

[Chris]

Amen ! Sheila and Rose. Some great points!!

I love those connections.

TODAY - TOMORROW - THE NEXT DAY

YESTERDAY - TODAY - FOREVER

THE HEAVENS - THE EARTH - THE SEA

THE NEW HEAVENS - THE NEW EARTH (no more "sea")

THE THIRD HEAVEN (no mention of either "the earth" or " the sea")

Just THE TREE OF LIFE in the midst of THE PARADISE OF GOD!!!  :cloud9:

[rosered]

 
 Awesome Chris....... :thumbsup:

this is why Jesus IS   saying Mat 22:32 But as touching the resurrection of the dead,

have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God,

saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.


Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.  
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 
Hebrews 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,  23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

[Chris]

Amen Rose

Was looking at this too:

Hos 6:1-2 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

We move from glory to glory.  :thumbsup:

From YESTERDAY (the NIGHT - when it is past)

To TODAY (the DAY - when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts)

to FOREVER ("caught up to the paradise of God" - THE THIRD HEAVEN - where we can partake of THE TREE OF LIFE freely)

[Chris]

24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

And OH HOW GREAT and WONDERFUL those words are!!

Abel's blood cried up from the ground (recorded in the words of Christ on the cross... "MY GOD, MY GOD, Why hath thou forasaken me?")

God asked Cain "What hast thou done?"

And Christ, being THE MEDIATOR between man and God, "intercedes" for us....

FATHER, FORGIVEN THEM; FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!!!  :HeartThrob:

Praise His Holy Name!!!  :girlheart:

[Chris]

Rom 14:7-9

For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

For to this end Christ BOTH died, and rose, AND revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

[rosered]

Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

 thats just it sis , when Paul was saying this it would be for those who knew the City of David  Mount ZION IS  Davids sepulcher !! the dwelling place of the living God ! '' the sign''  lol...  the raise up  monument !

 Key of David is the clue to those who the  heavens open !

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;  

  Paul was good to say that! in such a way !

[sheila]

 AMEN!!!

    and then they shall see  THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN

    COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN

[rosered]

 

For me all those whom slept with their fathers in the City of David are raised up ! the clue must be Matt 27;53

the New Jerusalem is the new heavens ! 2Sa 5:7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same [is] the city of David.
 for the old Jerusalem  was dead .. Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Zion
(From Hitchcock's Bible Names)

monument; raised up; sepulcher

[sheila]

   On that day, David said ,

    ' ANYONE WHO CONQUERS THE JEBUSITES WILL HAVE

  TO USE THE WATER SHAFT TO REACH THOSE

   'LAME AND BLIND WHO ARE DAVID'S ENEMIES

   that is why they say..the blind and lame will not enter the

    palace.

   jebu= threshing place

[bobf]

Hey Bob, one of the things that made me begin to doubt my own understanding of the millennium and the resurrections back when I was at BT was this:

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

As soon as that finally stood out to me I had to question everything that I believed about the resurrection(s) and the millennium.

If I was claiming (and I was) that the elect come forth FIRST in "the first resurrection" (because we all know that "blessed and holy is that comes forth IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION) and then that resurrection was followed by "a thousand years" (whether literal or figurative) that was followed by "the second resurrection" (the resurrection of the "unjust") then how is it that, according to Christ, "the tares" are harvested FIRST?   :Chinscratch:

Hi Chris,

Yes, I am aware of that verse and it's relation to our discussion.  I am not stuck on looking at the resurrection(s) as future literal physical events with 1st preceding 2nd by a thousand years.  But when I have looked at these as spiritual events, what I "saw" was that wrath and condemnation (Christ coming as a thief) precedes awakening to our sin and is followed by turning to Christ and passing from death to life.  That's why I was surprised that when you said you saw them as simultaneous.

[Chris]

Hey Bob, one of the things that made me begin to doubt my own understanding of the millennium and the resurrections back when I was at BT was this:

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

As soon as that finally stood out to me I had to question everything that I believed about the resurrection(s) and the millennium.

If I was claiming (and I was) that the elect come forth FIRST in "the first resurrection" (because we all know that "blessed and holy is that comes forth IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION) and then that resurrection was followed by "a thousand years" (whether literal or figurative) that was followed by "the second resurrection" (the resurrection of the "unjust") then how is it that, according to Christ, "the tares" are harvested FIRST?   :Chinscratch:

Hi Chris,

Yes, I am aware of that verse and it's relation to our discussion.  I am not stuck on looking at the resurrection(s) as future literal physical events with 1st preceding 2nd by a thousand years. 

With who coming forth in the 1st resurrection and who coming forth in the 2nd?

And in relation to Mat 13:30?

But when I have looked at these as spiritual events, what I "saw" was that wrath and condemnation (Christ coming as a thief) precedes awakening to our sin and is followed by turning to Christ and passing from death to life. 

Absolutely! We pass from death unto life. For night to day, darkness to light, yesterday to today... to forever.

That's why I was surprised that when you said you saw them as simultaneous.

We are "raised" WITH CHRIST. If that includes both "the living" and "the dead" how can it not be simultaneous? Though we experience the wrath/condemnation FIRST as we pass FROM DEATH unto LIFE?

[bobf]

With who coming forth in the 1st resurrection and who coming forth in the 2nd?

And in relation to Mat 13:30?

Ok let me use Daniel 4 and king Nebuchadnezzar as an example.

Here is where Jesus came as a thief.

• Daniel 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

The tares were removed during the seven times of judgment when Neb. was cast out of his kingdom.

• Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will

Nebechadnezzar's words prior to that judgment revealed his heart, that He worshipped himself.  Tares.

• Daniel 4:30  The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

The kings words after judgment reveal his new heart, glorifying God.  Tares removed.

• Daniel 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


• Daniel 4:3  How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation

.

I believe Neb. passed from death to life here.

• Daniel 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

If I had to relate them to the 1st and 2nd resurrection.  I'd say that the 2nd resurrection to aionion contempt corresponds to Neb being judged and cast out of his kingdom for seven times.  The 1st resurrection to life corresponds to Neb. lifting his eyes to heaven and having his kingdom restored. Problem with that is they are out of order with Revelation 20.  So I can't really draw that conclusion.

We are "raised" WITH CHRIST. If that includes both "the living" and "the dead" how can it not be simultaneous?

I don't think the Romans 14:7-9 says that both living and dead are raised with Christ.  Nebuchadnezzar both died and lived unto the Lord, but I think only his being made alive from the dead corresponds to being raised with Christ.

Though we experience the wrath/condemnation FIRST as we pass FROM DEATH unto LIFE?

All the examples I can think of in scripture has people experiencing wrath and condemnation before passing from death to life.  For example, you quoted this.

• Hosea 6:1-2 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

They experienced being torn and smitten prior to saying "let us return unto the LORD" and prior to being made alive on the third day.

Those who see more than one resurrection "divide" this verse differently, as well; but it still speaks of "a" resurrection. And Jesus Christ says that "He" is "the" resurrection. If Christ is "the" resurrection then how can there be more than "one"?

1. I'm not sure there is any "a" in the text.
2. "a resurrection of the just and unjust".  Can't I also say "my son and daughter have a birthday this week"?
3. I think the resurrection of the unjust is more of an rude awakening from sleep than a making alive.  The word "awake" in this verse is the same as the one for the resurrection of the unjust in Daniel 12:2.

• Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.7   He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast [it] away; the branches thereof are made white.

4. When Jesus says "I am the resurrection" I think he's talking about the reusrrection to life.  Even if not, I still don't think Christ saying "I am the resurrection" causes the resurrection to contempt to be simultaneous with the resurrection to life, anymore than it causes your resurrection to be simulataneous with mine.


[/list]

[Pierac]

The dead know nothing! David is still in his grave...

Act 2:34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

Psa 146:3  Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.4  His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Joh 11:24  Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."  Notice it does not say on his last day! Just like Job said...

Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Indeed... Paul knew of the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul...  2Ti 2:18  men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Peter confirms...nothing changed with Jesus' ressurection

2Pe 3:4  They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."

We must wait...

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.  That means no one!

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  How can the dead rise if they are in heaven? Note it reads dead, not body!

"The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21). This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body. Paul speaks of the resurrection not 'of the body' but 'of the dead.' This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man.... Thus the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul. The Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus' Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great."  Quote taken from the studies of  Dr. Paul Althaus


Paul

[jabcat]

Hi Paul.  How do you understand the following?  I'm not sure what it means.   :dontknow:     Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

[Chris]

Ok let me use Daniel 4 and king Nebuchadnezzar as an example.

Here is where Jesus came as a thief.

• Daniel 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

The tares were removed during the seven times of judgment when Neb. was cast out of his kingdom.

• Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will

Nebechadnezzar's words prior to that judgment revealed his heart, that He worshipped himself.  Tares.

• Daniel 4:30  The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

The kings words after judgment reveal his new heart, glorifying God.  Tares removed.

• Daniel 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


• Daniel 4:3  How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation

.

I believe Neb. passed from death to life here.

• Daniel 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

If I had to relate them to the 1st and 2nd resurrection.  I'd say that the 2nd resurrection to aionion contempt corresponds to Neb being judged and cast out of his kingdom for seven times.  The 1st resurrection to life corresponds to Neb. lifting his eyes to heaven and having his kingdom restored. Problem with that is they are out of order with Revelation 20.  So I can't really draw that conclusion.

You lost me. Why do you call that which you describes as happening first (tares) "the 2nd resurrection"?

Christ said that the tares are harvested "first". So what you have describes seems to be presented in the correct order but you seem to want to label the "resurrection to aionion contempt" as "the 2nd resurrection". Why?

I don't think the Romans 14:7-9 says that both living and dead are raised with Christ.  Nebuchadnezzar both died and lived unto the Lord, but I think only his being made alive from the dead corresponds to being raised with Christ.

Why?

When Paul preached the gospel he said that we had already been reconciled to God through Christ (while we were yet sinners). Paul always spoke of us being raised with Christ, having been planted in the likeness of His death, etc (indication that those things had already taken place) even though not all were "walking in it". The admonishment was to walk in it..

Paul even spoke of those who had "fallen asleep".

I used to think that he was talking about those who had died, physically... but I now believe that he was referring to those who were raised with Christ (revived) but who "did not remain".

When Paul speaks of "the end" when the last trumpet sounds and Christ comes for all of those who "remain", he says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first"... then those "who are alive" and remain shall be caught up with them. 

Again, I used to see "the dead in Christ" as believers who had previously died, physically, being called out of their graves. But if it is THE TARES who are gathered FIRST, then how can "the dead" not be "the tares"? How can it be the righteous who are being gathered FIRST (in the FIRST resurrection) - the tares not to gathered for another "thousand years"? 

The fact is that the tares have to be gathered first, in order for the wheat to be gathered into the barn... in order for the wheat to shine forth in the kingdom of God... because if one died for all then were ALL DEAD. Right?

Though we experience the wrath/condemnation FIRST as we pass FROM DEATH unto LIFE?

All the examples I can think of in scripture has people experiencing wrath and condemnation before passing from death to life.  

That is exactly what I said. We experience wrath/condemnation FIRST, before we pass from death unto life.

For example, you quoted this.

• Hosea 6:1-2 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

They experienced being torn and smitten prior to saying "let us return unto the LORD" and prior to being made alive on the third day.

:thumbsup:

1. I'm not sure there is any "a" in the text.

There may not  be; I'd have to check, but it is still spoken of in the singular.

2. "a resurrection of the just and unjust".  Can't I also say "my son and daughter have a birthday this week"?

True, you could just as easily say that both the just and the unjust will be resurrected.

However, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ said that HE ((is)) the resurrection. And even if there is more than one, He also said that when the time of harvest came he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES.

I can see no way of getting around the fact that it is the tares that are gathered first; which would make "the dead in Christ" (who Paul said would rise first) "the tares". Which is why we are not to sorrow for them!! Why would we even sorrow for the righteous, who had already died, physically? Why would Paul need to "comfort" us with the fact that "even the dead shall Christ bring with Him" if he was talking about believers? Who would doubt that?

3. I think the resurrection of the unjust is more of an rude awakening from sleep than a making alive.  The word "awake" in this verse is the same as the one for the resurrection of the unjust in Daniel 12:2.

I would say so. It is a casting into fire/judgment. It is only in passing THROUGH THE FIRE that we finally pass from death unto life. Babes in Christ are yet carnal. Christ is not yet formed in them; that takes time.... and a burning away of all that hay, wood and stubble (tares).

• Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.7   He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast [it] away; the branches thereof are made white.

4. When Jesus says "I am the resurrection" I think he's talking about the reusrrection to life.  Even if not, I still don't think Christ saying "I am the resurrection" causes the resurrection to contempt to be simultaneous with the resurrection to life, anymore than it causes your resurrection to be simulataneous with mine.

We do not pass from death unto life at the same time, no, each man in his own order; but we are already raised with Christ, regardless of whether we are currently "awake" or "asleep". That LIFE is already (HID) within each and every one of us, as Jesus Christ is the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world (it's just that the darkness comprehends it not).

[Chris]

The dead know nothing! David is still in his grave...

Act 2:34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

David's sepulcher was still with them, yes; it was not David's tomb that was empty, but Christ's.

And you are right, "the dead know nothing":

Pro 9:13  A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.

Psa 146:3  Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.4  His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

You can see that after a carnal truth as it relates to physical death and the body returning to dust and the spirit to God.

You can also see it after a spiritual truth as it relates to man who was formed "out of the dust of the ground", in that it takes "the breath of life" to make Adam/man "a LIVING soul" .... and "the soul that sinneth, IT SHALL DIE".

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

The same here; you can see that after a carnal truth, as it related to physical death or you can see it after a spiritual truth as it relates to "the body of this death" whose THROAT IS "an open sepulcher".

Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Again, you can see that after a carnal truth as it relates to physical death or you can see it after a spiritual truth as it related to THE NIGHT/DARKNESS in which we walk:

Joh 9:3-5 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Joh 11:24  Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."  Notice it does not say on his last day! Just like Job said...

And Jesus responded:

Joh 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Same as above, how might we understand that as a spiritual truth, rather than a carnal one? Does man have to be dead physically to "lie down" and "not rise" UNTIL the heavens are no longer (the creation of a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH  = A NEW CREATION, created IN CHRIST)?

Indeed... Paul knew of the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul...  2Ti 2:18  men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Peter confirms...nothing changed with Jesus' ressurection

No one here has said that the resurrection is past. Jesus Christ, who IS, WAS, and IS TO COME ((is)) THE RESURRECTION.

2Pe 3:4  They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."

We are also told to LOOK for His appearing! As He comes "as a thief in the night"... TO THOSE WHO SLEEP.

If we were to say that "it is past" then where is THE HOPE for those who still "sleep"?

We must wait...

We "wait" for Christ to be formed IN US..... each man in his own order.

That doesn't mean that Abraham, who walked IN FAITH, is still "waiting".

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.  That means no one!

We don't ascend... the kingdom of God is within!!

Only Christ, who first descended, ascended into heaven. And it is not MAN who "ascended and descends" but THE ANGELS.

Gen 28:12  And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

Joh 1:51  And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Who are "the angels"?

(Paul was received as one.  :angel5:)

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  How can the dead rise if they are in heaven? Note it reads dead, not body!

And who are "the dead"? Who did Christ say would be gathered first?

"The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21).

Are you saying the believers do not HAVE eternal life (NOW)?

This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body.

The flesh profits NOTHING.

Paul speaks of the resurrection not 'of the body' but 'of the dead.'

Amen! God GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases him and to each seed its own body.

(Who are "the dead"?)

This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man.... Thus the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul.

It is THIS MORTAL that must "put on" IMMORTALITY, that ONLY CHRIST has.

But it is NOT about be "unclothed"; it is about being CLOTHED UPON!

2Co 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.



Remember "the soul that sinneth, it shall die?


James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


God breathed the breath of life into Adam making him A LIVING (chay) SOUL (nehpesh).

A "nephesh" (soul) is A BREATHING CREATURE.

Why would God need to breath "the breath of life" into A BREATHING CREATURE to make him "a LIVING soul"?

Because man is not "created" (in the image and likeness OF GOD) UNTIL God sends forth HIS SPIRIT and "renewth the face of the earth":

Psa 104:30  Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

This is seen ALLEGORICALLY in Genesis with Adam, when God breaths the breath of life into Adam's nostril to make him "a LIVING soul".

The Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus' Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great."  Quote taken from the studies of  Dr. Paul Althaus


Paul

The DAY of the Lord has to do with TODAY, when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts. Then we pass from death (THE NIGHT/DARKNESS = which is as YESTERDAY, when it is past) unto LIFE (THE DAY/LIGHT) becoming "children of the resurrection".

That ((is)) THE HOPE! The hope OF ETERNAL LIFE (Christ IN YOU).

Chris

[Zeek]

1Co 15:29  Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

how can one be baptized (death/resurr) for the dead (tares), if the dead (tares) were raised first?  

how can one be a firstfruit if the dead (tares) were first?

how can they (tares) obtain mercy because of our mercy (firstfruits) if they were shown mercy first?? 

or are you "internalizing" all of this, and the tares are not "individuals", non believers but rather "mindsets"? 

[Chris]

1Co 15:29  Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

how can one be baptized (death/resurr) for the dead (tares), if the dead (tares) were raised first?  

I am not sure what you are asking, but it is "the dead" who are baptized. The question is why? If the dead are not raised?

Are they not raised?

how can one be a firstfruit if the dead (tares) were first?

Again, I am not sure what you are asking, but Jesus Christ is the first-fruit. We (believers) are a type of first-fruits... but even believers were once "dead" (walking in darkness, children of the wicked one, etc)

how can they (tares) obtain mercy because of our mercy (firstfruits) if they were shown mercy first??

Who was "shown mercy first"? We are ALL "tares" (dead) until all that "hay, wood and stubble" is BURNED UP!

or are you "internalizing" all of this, and the tares are not "individuals", non believers but rather "mindsets"?  

Both.

The wheat and the tares "grow together" ~IN THE SAME FIELD~

As an internal application, we all have both "wheat" AND "tares" growing together in these 'earthen vessels'. There is the outward man (natural/tare) and the inward man (wheat).

As an external application, it is not until that outward man (natural man / flesh / tare) DECREASES and the inward man (spiritual man / spirit / wheat) INCREASED that "THE WHEAT" can shine forth in the kingdom of God.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

[Chris]

Like I said, David is risen because most of the noted saints rose with Christ and went into the city

HI Lee, I used David in the title because of the specific passage about him, but I am not talking only about David. Nor do I believe that the saints were in the grave until after Christ was resurrection.

Now, when you say that the saints rose with Christ and went into the city are you saying that they were in the graves (asleep and awaiting their resurrection) until Christ was resurrected or are you talking only about their bodies? 

[Pierac]

Hi Paul.  How do you understand the following?  I'm not sure what it means.   :dontknow:     Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 21:1  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

I don't really understand it, but it conforms with Job. Job some how spoke the truth.

[Chris]

Hi Paul.  How do you understand the following?  I'm not sure what it means.   :dontknow:     Job 14:12  So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 21:1  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

I don't really understand it, but it conforms with Job. Job some how spoke the truth.

So you see that as still future? Do you take that literally (as in a new physical creation)?