abomination that causes desolation

[Zeek]

What is there to look for in the future?  Will Christ return again? Will there be a millennium?

CHB

Discovering more and more of WHO WE ARE

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And who He is, IN US....... :thumbsup:

[Zeek]

:cloud9: And who He is, IN US....... :thumbsup:

and He and I are ONE. 

[CHB]

What is there to look for in the future?  Will Christ return again? Will there be a millennium?

CHB

Discovering more and more of WHO WE ARE

Zeek,

Not exactly the answer I was looking for. although, I know you are right on this.

CHB

[Doug]

What is there to look for in the future?  Will Christ return again? Will there be a millennium?

CHB

Discovering more and more of WHO WE ARE

"PRETERIST PROPHETIC PHANTASYLAND" by Bob L. Ross

Doug

[jabcat]

As a partial preterist, I personally don't care for the author's tone.  I personally believe there is much more to occur, but also think we err by missing/discounting what things have been fulfilled, how they affect our current views and doctrines including our often taking scriptures out of its primary context/misapplying it, and our attitudes about the church, Israel, and God's working of His plan.  I am not saying I necessarily know, understand, or agree with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that's in the following links, I'm still sorting much of this out myself - but if one types in 70 AD in the TM homepage, there are scores of articles about this topic.  I've included just a few for consideration.

The Coming of Christ in 70 AD by Gary Amirault-   http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 5, Tentmaker Home Page - http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch5.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 8, Tantmaker Home Page -
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch8.html

[jabcat]

P.S., I don't see how anyone who believes anything about the Bible at all couldn't be called at least a PARTIAL preterist.  Just one example is, if we believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then that's prophecy fulfilled.   :scratchhead:

[CHB]

P.S., I don't see how anyone who believes anything about the Bible at all couldn't be called at least a PARTIAL preterist.  Just one example is, if we believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then that's prophecy fulfilled.   :scratchhead:

Amen jabcat and thanks for the links to the articles I will certainly read them. You might say I am a partial preterist. I am just not certain of some of the things that are yet to happen and some that have already happened. I like to keep an open mind and check out all things. A few years ago I couldn't see any of these things that full or partial preterist had to say but now I am beginning to see some of it as being true.

CHB

[jabcat]

Me too!  :thumbsup:

Isn't there always something to learn?   :HeartThrob:

[Doug]

As a partial preterist, I personally don't care for the author's tone.  I personally believe there is much more to occur, but also think we err by missing/discounting what things have been fulfilled, how they affect our current views and doctrines including our often taking scriptures out of its primary context/misapplying it, and our attitudes about the church, Israel, and God's working of His plan.  I am not saying I necessarily know, understand, or agree with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that's in the following links, I'm still sorting much of this out myself - but if one types in 70 AD in the TM homepage, there are scores of articles about this topic.  I've included just a few for consideration.

The Coming of Christ in 70 AD by Gary Amirault-   http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 5, Tentmaker Home Page - http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch5.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 8, Tantmaker Home Page -
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch8.html

The author of "Prophecy Fulfilled" is David P. Crews, who is also the author of
Opening Up - My Journey from Religion to Rationalism

It tells "the story of one serious believer's journey into disbelief."

If that's where preterism leads, I'm not really surprised. Jesus said,"by their fruits you will know them."

I am a bit surprised Gary Amirault hosts such a work on his site, and that it would be recommended by you, James!

Doug

[Paul Hazelwood]

Here is a disclaimer for the book hosted here

Note: This book is an excellent resource for seeing how many of the prophecies in the Bible has already long been fulfilled. That is the main reason we are posting it on our website. However, the author also believes and mentions in his book some beliefs we DEFINITELY DO NOT agree with. We do NOT agree with his teaching on Hell nor his beliefs that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.--Gary Amirault

After reading through the book about a believer heading towards unbelief.    I think it is actually a good thing,  he has ridded himself of Christianity and has actually laid the foundation for a more solid spiritual ground, He just doesn't realize it yet.

There are far to many people that still struggle with spiritual things and you will find the vast majority of this due to the thought that Christianity actually is correct, except for the hell thing,  so change everything to a temporary hell and the rest is ok, that really is not true.

[Dallas]

Thanks Dallas, you have helped me more than you know.

Sorry for so many questions but here are a few more.

What is there to look for in the future?  Will Christ return again? Will there be a millennium?

CHB

Will Christ Return?- The question that has to be first asked because it also answers your other question about the millenium, "Does Christ NEED to return?"

What reason does Jesus have to come back for? As Daniel taught us...

Daniel 7:13"I kept looking in the night visions,
        And behold, with the clouds of heaven
        One like a Son of Man was coming,
        And He came up to the Ancient of Days
        And was presented before Him.
     14"And to Him was given dominion,
        Glory and a kingdom,
        That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
        Might serve Him
        His dominion is an everlasting dominion
        Which will not pass away;
        And His kingdom is one
        Which will not be destroyed.

This was what Jesus recieved when He WENT UP into heaven, the ascension. This isn't something we are waiting for. Jesus doesn't come back to set up a kingdom, He went up and recieved it as a gift from His Father. Jesus told us that was going to happen...

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

Jesus did all He needed, when the transfer of Kingdoms took place the new came in and wiped out the old... there is no need to come again for that end. Jesus' Kingdom can not be defeated and is established already forevermore.

So does He need to come... No. Will He? Maybe, but as far as for the scriptures and old covenant is concearned No. What about thr Millenium???

The 1000 years, this is a well established and well know number of illistration used by the Hebrew people to symbolize forever.

Just as Psalms says, "God is the owner of a 1000 cattle on a 1000 hills." Does that mean God doesn't own everything? Of course not, it's simply adressing that God owns all cattle and all the hills, He is God over all.

And Just as Daniel says, Jesus' reign is forever, just like the thousands of scriptures that say His reign and dominion will be forever.


What do we have to look forward too?

This to me is the exciting part. We get to live in the unveiling of righteousness.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 21 "so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The effect of Jesus is spreading throughout the world. Just as sin entered and has polluted man, even the ones we love we have watched ourselves and them suffer greatly, but now we get to see His effect cause restitution to their beings. The growth of freedom and joy and peace invade mankind, take over this world and establish again, the garden of Eden. This will happen internally, and externally.

Not if that weren't enough, because just being healed and set free fom the sin and death in my personal life wasn't enough we are now able to become included into God's life, included into what He does. We will become priests and act as priests...

What does it mean to be preists?

Walk around a church taking confession.... well no.

We forgive people their sin, loose the kingdom rule into the world. Read Dueteronomy, everything te preist was told to do, that is US!!

We haven't even got look at that because we are still battleing each others silly doctrines of right and wrong... all which may have goodness in them but are without substance to bring Peace,Joy, and Righteousness.

We are free, and we get to be the people the prophets of old wished they could see....freedom spreading to the whole world...freedom from sin and death and freedom to walk without shame from judgement...

Freedom to stand before God naked...without shame.

[Dallas]

Oh Oh!!

That last post is getting me excited, don't ask a preacher to start preaching!! LOL :banana:

Doctrine debates are boring and self-serving arguments usually... it's letting loose the peace of God upon people, the goodness that they have been brought into God's household, made children, given the robe and made perfect that changes the soul!

Praise and Joy through Jesus.

[jabcat]

As a partial preterist, I personally don't care for the author's tone.  I personally believe there is much more to occur, but also think we err by missing/discounting what things have been fulfilled, how they affect our current views and doctrines including our often taking scriptures out of its primary context/misapplying it, and our attitudes about the church, Israel, and God's working of His plan.  I am not saying I necessarily know, understand, or agree with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that's in the following links, I'm still sorting much of this out myself - but if one types in 70 AD in the TM homepage, there are scores of articles about this topic.  I've included just a few for consideration.

The Coming of Christ in 70 AD by Gary Amirault-   http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 5, Tentmaker Home Page - http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch5.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 8, Tantmaker Home Page -
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch8.html

The author of "Prophecy Fulfilled" is David P. Crews, who is also the author of
Opening Up - My Journey from Religion to Rationalism

It tells "the story of one serious believer's journey into disbelief."

If that's where preterism leads, I'm not really surprised. Jesus said,"by their fruits you will know them."

I am a bit surprised Gary Amirault hosts such a work on his site, and that it would be recommended by you, James!

Doug

Surely you saw the bolded and underlined part of my post my brother Doug, as well as my statement of "for consideration".  Do you consider that "recommending" something?  I didn't claim to know everything in the books/articles, which I was trying to make clear by the bolded underline.  I didn't read all of those chapter links, and from what I saw, I really think the author takes things farther than I personally would, that I probably stop short of some of the end results of his arguments.  But that doesn't mean there's not some things to look at and consider in there.  I really hope there's nothing in those particular links that are so bad they shouldn't even be read and examined.  I doubt Gary would have them up on the site if they were  :dontknow:.  I didn't know anything about the other book you mention Doug, and it sounds like it's probably something I wouldn't personally be interested in reading, might find it less than helpful.  That's not in any of my links is it, or did you find that through your own search?

I won't attempt to speak for Gary, but I believe he would at least be considered a partial preterist, believing many things were fulfilled in 70 AD - so I would think that would be an important thing to be aware of, and I probably personally would discourage absolute blanket bashing of all things one may consider any form whatsoever of "preterism".  Like I also said, I would think Jesus' death and resurrection prophecies having been fulfilled could be seen as "preteristic".  IMO, there are many different levels and degrees, just as there are about what people believe about different ages/dispensations.  I don't believe having some level of recognition of such things automatically makes someone all one way or the other, ,and therefor in need of being strictly labeled as such.  I believe some of the absolute all-or-none black-and-white labeling of things and others' beliefs can cause problems in our discussing things sometimes (Disclaimer - I'll try little bitty skinny letters this time  :laughing7: - I am not talking about clear Biblical teachings as revealed by the Holy Spirit - obvious things mentioned as sin, Jesus' diety, His death, resurrection, etc., etc.).  I do see those things as being "non-negotiable".  But we do often get off on tangents - perhaps like this one  :laugh:.  Anyway, as I've watched some of the "Yes, Preterist", "No, Preterist" "all one way or the other" arguments, I keep thinking like "uh, Gary's at least partial preterist and has information on TM about such" - maybe we could drop some of the labels (battle lines) and try to find out not only what each other really believes, but mainly, what says the Lord.  But if I can call someone a name (label), and they can call me one, then we can just dig in and who the heck cares what we really think/believe/understand?!?  I mean, if I can say "oh Bob's just a _______", then I don't really have to listen to or investigate what he says.  I can filter everything I hear through what I already believe and keep coming up with the same conclusions.  I ought'a know, I do it if I'm not real careful.   :mblush:

Off soapbox/rant, onward and upward.   :thumbsup:  The Surprising James.  :happy3:

[CHB]

The effect of Jesus is spreading throughout the world. Just as sin entered and has polluted man, even the ones we love we have watched ourselves and them suffer greatly, but now we get to see His effect cause restitution to their beings. The growth of freedom and joy and peace invade mankind, take over this world and establish again, the garden of Eden. This will happen internally, and externally.

Dallas, I am sorry but I don't see the effect of Jesus spreading. All I see is murder, rape, stealing, you name it and it gets worse everyday. Now I hope this changes Lord knows we need the change but it seems to get worse instead of better.

Not if that weren't enough, because just being healed and set free fom the sin and death in my personal life wasn't enough we are now able to become included into God's life, included into what He does. We will become priests and act as priests...

I thought the Priests were only of Israel. I don't think the title of priest applies to us. Why will there be a need for priests? Their job was to serve in the temple with offerings and sacrificing, which is done away with. Will you explain how this will be possible?

CHB

[jabcat]

Doug -  :handshake:

[jabcat]

Dallas, I am sorry but I don't see the effect of Jesus spreading. All I see is murder, rape, stealing, you name it and it gets worse everyday. Now I hope this changes Lord knows we need the change but it seems to get worse instead of better.

CHB

C, I know what you mean about this.  I think about this (and Doug, I'd guess you may relate to this as well) - if EVERYTHING is fulfilled and just keeps getting better and better from here, are we sure we're really seeing this?  Some seem to think they see it, and I don't know if it's my orthodox upbringing regarding "first, the great falling away" that sometimes flavors it for me, my lack of faith and spiritual eyes, but that confuses me a bit as well...one thing I think is "well, maybe things get worse before they get better, but that doesn't mean God is not IN THE PROCESS OF bringing about His kingdom (which of course He is, but hopefully you know what I mean).  The "darkness before dawn" concept.  But sometimes I really wonder about the process, what we're observing, are people really RIGHT NOW becoming more kingdom-minded, learning of Christ, etc.   :dontknow:  As I've said and may need to keep repeating, I just think there's a WHOLE lot more left to occur, namely as God becomes all in all.  My  :2c:

[Zeek]

Dallas, I am sorry but I don't see the effect of Jesus spreading. All I see is murder, rape, stealing, you name it and it gets worse everyday. Now I hope this changes Lord knows we need the change but it seems to get worse instead of better.

IMO,

Our "lens" we look through, tends to define the world we see. 

[Doug]

As a partial preterist, I personally don't care for the author's tone.  I personally believe there is much more to occur, but also think we err by missing/discounting what things have been fulfilled, how they affect our current views and doctrines including our often taking scriptures out of its primary context/misapplying it, and our attitudes about the church, Israel, and God's working of His plan.  I am not saying I necessarily know, understand, or agree with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that's in the following links, I'm still sorting much of this out myself - but if one types in 70 AD in the TM homepage, there are scores of articles about this topic.  I've included just a few for consideration.

The Coming of Christ in 70 AD by Gary Amirault-   http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 5, Tentmaker Home Page - http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch5.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 8, Tantmaker Home Page -
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch8.html

The author of "Prophecy Fulfilled" is David P. Crews, who is also the author of
Opening Up - My Journey from Religion to Rationalism

It tells "the story of one serious believer's journey into disbelief."

If that's where preterism leads, I'm not really surprised. Jesus said,"by their fruits you will know them."

I am a bit surprised Gary Amirault hosts such a work on his site, and that it would be recommended by you, James!

Doug

Surely you saw the bolded and underlined part of my post my brother Doug, as well as my statement of "for consideration".  Do you think that's really "recommending" something?  I didn't claim to know everything in the books/articles, which I was trying to make clear by the bolded underline.

I won't attempt to speak for Gary, but I believe he would at least be considered a partial preterist, believing many things were fulfilled in 70 AD - so I would think that would be an important thing to be aware of and keep in mind, and I probably personally would discourage absolute blanket bashing of all things one may consider "preterism".  Like I also said, I would think Jesus' death and resurrection prophecies having been fulfilled could be seen as "preteristic".  IMO, there are many different levels and degrees, just as there are about what people believe about different ages/dispensations.  I don't believe having some level of recognition of such things automatically makes someone all one way or the other, ,and therefor in need of being strictly labeled as such.  I believe some of the absolute all-or-none black-and-white labeling of things and others' beliefs can cause problems in our discussing things sometimes (Disclaimer - I'll try little bitty skinny letters this time  :laughing7: - I am not talking about clear Biblical teachings as revealed by the Holy Spirit - obvious things mentioned as sin, Jesus' diety, His death, resurrection, etc., etc.).  I do see those things as being "non-negotiable".  But we do often get off on tangents - perhaps like this one  :laugh:.  Anyway, as I've watched some of the "Yes, Preterist", "No, Preterist" "all one way or the other" arguments, I keep thinking like "uh, Gary's at least partial preterist and has information on TM about such" - maybe we could drop some of the labels (battle lines) and try to find out not only what each other really believes, but mainly, what says the Lord.  But if I can call someone a name (label), and they can call me one, then we can just dig in and who the heck cares what we really think/believe/understand?!?

Off soapbox/rant, onward and upward.   :thumbsup:  The Surprising James.  :happy3:

Okay. I certainly agree that the main thing is to find out "what says the Lord."

Below I address come comments in one of the articles that you listed, by David P. Crews:

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

Crews wrote:


[Daniel 12:7]

"It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."
    [NIV]

Here is a prophetic vision of these times when the power of the "holy people" would be broken (that is, the religious authority would be removed from them), and a specific time frame is placed on the process. In the type of symbolic language used in the Hebrew prophecies, the term "time" when used in this way means "one year." The amount of time that was prophesied for the destruction of the Jews was: 1 year ("time") + 2 years ("times") + 1/2 year ("half a time"), equaling 3 1/2 years total. Numerous other references in Daniel, like "thousand two hundred and ninety days," confirm that he means 3 1/2 years for the prophetic time span.

This is incorrect, IMO. Crews insists that "time" has to be interpreted as "year," when in fact the word "time" is indeterminate. It can represent a day, an hour, a month, a year, or several centuries. Crews has based his interpretations on unsound premises. 
   
Crews exhibits a frivolous approach to several prophetic scriptures below, IMO.

Now let us examine the other place in the Bible that has reference to this event and this prophesied time. Let us look for a moment at Revelation, chapters 11 and 12. In 11:2, we read:

    "[the Temple of God] has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."
    [NIV]

and the next verse:

    "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days...."
    [NIV]

and verse 9:

    "For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial."12
    [NIV]

and chapter 12:6 -

    "The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."
    [NIV]

and verse 14:

    "The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half time, out of the serpent's reach."

In all of these prophecy passages the same time period is repeatedly spoken of. The period was to be 3 1/2 years and this would be the times of the Gentiles to overcome the city and people of Jerusalem and Judea. Was the prophecy accurate? Did the Romans take this particular amount of time to accomplish their destructions? The answer is yes. From the date, February of A.D. 67, when the Roman emperor Nero gave the official order to his general Vespasian to go and subdue Judea, to the final destruction of the Temple of Herod and the city, in August of A.D. 70, was in fact three and one-half years.

The prophecy about the 2 witnesses has a spiritual meaning, that the treatment by Crews quoted above fails to grasp. The temple represents the saints, and the Gentiles who trample the city, and occupy the outer court, represent those who claim to be Christians, but are not. These are spiritual Gentiles, who dominate those who are sincere believers, and Jews in the spirit. [Romans 2:29] The prophecy describes [i.e., measures] much of what is called Christianity.

In my view, the two witness in the prophecy are not literal humans, but they are symbolic of the scriptures, and the Spirit of God. Jesus identified these as things that would testify of him. After their ministry, they are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit, and their bodies lie in the street of the city, called Sodom, and Egypt. Both were places from which God's people escaped.

The great city in Revelation 11:8 is not Jerusalem, as Jesus was crucified outside the gate. [Hebrews 13:12] The city of Jerusalem is symbolic of the saints, and the church, and outside the gate represents the world. So the great city where our Lord was crucified represents the world, and mystical Babylon.

I suggest that the warfare between the two witnesses and the beast from the bottomless pit, and their being overcome, and killed by him, is symbolic of widespread disbelief, and the demise of faith, caused by false interpretations of the scriptures, and of prophecy.

The popular systems of interpretation have killed the true message of prophecy as they deny its application to the church in the present age. One view says it applies to Jews in the first century, and another says it applies to Jews in a future seven year tribulation. [I omitted the labels.] These both deny the application of prophecy to the church in the present age. And more serious, they deny that the church is the Israel to which prophecy applies! 

The corpses of the two witnesses lying unburied in the street pictures the attitude of the world to scripture and the Spirit of God. They make jokes about it! And there are many who fit the prophecy of Peter:

2 Peter 2:2
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

The revival of the two witnesses, I suggest, pictures the Spirit of God revealing the true interpretation of prophecy, and imparting the gift of faith to the saints.

Verse 19 of the chapter reveals that the temple of this chapter is located in heaven. So it cannot refer to the one destroyed by the Romans.

The verses in Revelation 12 about the woman fleeing to the wilderness have no connection to the events of 70 AD, but allude to the Exodus. I think the woman fleeing to the wilderness is more likely symbolic of the saints departing from evil, as the Israelites escaped from bondage in Egypt. It is interesting that she flees twice, and I may post something on it later. The wings of eagles, I think, represent the gift of prophecy. And the "time, times and a half" does not refer to a literal three and a half years, but is symbolic. It is half of seven times, which is a prophetic week. It is the week in which Christ confirms the covenant, which in no way fits the period of 70 AD.

Doug

[jabcat]

Good post, and I think your understandings are certainly worth considering.  It's a big discussion, and I admittedly see bits and pieces, and agree with bits and pieces of various POVs, and probably understand even less.  There are "sold-out" believers with one presentation, "sold-out" believers with another.  Things to pray about and look to the Lord for understanding.  As I read your post, I was reminded of the concept of literal and spiritual, and multiple layers to the scriptures.  Thanks  :thumbsup:

[CHB]

Zeek,

I guess I am still looking through carnal eyes.  :mblush: I see some good in the world, don't get me wrong. I just don't see how things are improving as far as belief in God, or anything else for that matter. I pretty much see the whole world as being deceived.

jabcat,

I guess you and I see a lot a like on this.

Dallas,

I pretty much agree with everything you have said, I just don't see the world with the same eyes you do, I guess.

CHB

[jabcat]

jabcat,

I guess you and I see a lot a like on this.
CHB

We usually do.  I said one time I think we're related.  :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

We will become priests and act as priests...

What does it mean to be preists?

Walk around a church taking confession.... well no.

We forgive people their sin, loose the kingdom rule into the world. Read Dueteronomy, everything te preist was told to do, that is US!!

:cloud9: AMEN Dallas  :thumbsup: I'm getting excited with you! We are of a royal priesthood, a king/priest priesthood specifically, as He is king of KINGS. And yes we do have the power to remit sins, as it says whatever sins WE remit they are remitted. But 90% of the church hasn't awakened to who HE is IN THEM yet, so they slumber on, unaware of the power and the authority THAT GOES WITH THE KINGDOM, that resides inside, which are attributes of the KING.

Righteousness, peace and joy are attributes of a NATURE, the nature of the King. He came, He comes, and He continues to come, to rule in and thru a people that are called by His name/nature! Come, Lord, come! Let the eyes of your people be enlightened, as Paul prayed. Blessings....

[Dallas]

The effect of Jesus is spreading throughout the world. Just as sin entered and has polluted man, even the ones we love we have watched ourselves and them suffer greatly, but now we get to see His effect cause restitution to their beings. The growth of freedom and joy and peace invade mankind, take over this world and establish again, the garden of Eden. This will happen internally, and externally.

Dallas, I am sorry but I don't see the effect of Jesus spreading. All I see is murder, rape, stealing, you name it and it gets worse everyday. Now I hope this changes Lord knows we need the change but it seems to get worse instead of better.


Quote from: Dallas
Not if that weren't enough, because just being healed and set free fom the sin and death in my personal life wasn't enough we are now able to become included into God's life, included into what He does. We will become priests and act as priests...

I thought the Priests were only of Israel. I don't think the title of priest applies to us. Why will there be a need for priests? Their job was to serve in the temple with offerings and sacrificing, which is done away with. Will you explain how this will be possible?

CHB

Hello;

The quicker issue to deal with, the Isreal Priesthood thing. Preists were whom? They where the "ones who do the things of God"

God is still doing "things" and still has His "ways" WE as preists are included into those, for the Isrealite God things were sacrifice, ritual, and worship.... for US it's a totally different ball of yarn!!
Priests of Christ are to be the fullness of His promises, 2 Corinthinas, "For all the promises are yes and amen in Him" We proclaim His finished work and loose the truth on this world...tormenting it with the goodness it is not used to.

Let me look at my notes, I will show you some real cool stuff about who we are as Priests!


As far as the view of the world;

Our "lens" we look through, tends to define the world we see.

This statement is so very true... just think that once because you saw a God with a hell you saw a bunch of sinners, not that you see God as inclusive you see Him as merciful....

Because I see His work completed, I see the effects...however I also think there is more to it than just chosing it as, that could easily become deliusion. But we can't seperate what we believe with what we see very easily.

That's why we need the foundation to be wrong and let the saftey of Christ allow us to remain righteous while we are yet wrong.

For instance, take a look at the world as a whole, we as a civilization, even on a world basis are more mindful of womens rights and human rights, racial equality, religous acceptance and tollerance. One thing I would also like to pull out is the turning up on sin...the worse things seem is because we are paying more attention to it. The more we are aware is a good thing! The more we will see, the more we will need and the more we will reach out for Him.

[Zeek]

It tells "the story of one serious believer's journey into disbelief."

If that's where preterism leads, I'm not really surprised. Jesus said,"by their fruits you will know them."



Doug

Here is a free e book if u have three email referrals, that shows one man's journey into peace, love and joy THROUGH the fulfilled view.   For those interested, it is worth the read imo.

http://thisbookwillchangeyourworld.com/


here is a quote from the author:

"It changed the way I read myself, others, and our world. It
caused me to undergo a personal transformation revealing that
God actively makes all things new. To me, it unveiled nothing
short of a New Heaven and Earth emerging in the midst of our
social worlds."

p.s. if you need a couple of emails to refer, you can use mine,

neral40@yahoo.com
ropefam@yahoo.com