Tentmaker Forum

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him"

The more I read this, I went to study the word "desolation" also mean many word, including: "Depopulation"

When I saw that word, first thing come to mind is Global warming government believe in population control, it need less human to protest the earth, so they trying to kill off some people, do you think the anti-christ setting up a organzation of global warming inside on the wing of the temple to start killing more people and betray jewish people?

It all make sense, I am telling, it perfectly clear, I know the tranlation is terrible, but what we facing with Al gore and his hypocrites governments (Including the health Care being passed just before Christmas) and everything was set in motion.


I know it sound weird but think about it for a second, it make sense because God hate it when these people set up horrible abomination on holy land believing in Global Reduction to protest earth, rather than Humans.

I know some of you will disagree with me but the way I read it, it starting to make sense, even in poor tranlation.

iD,

If that verse is really about Global warming when does/did it start?
The GW debate is going on for quite a while. The Kyoto/Helsinki treaties failed.
If GW really signals the beast empire I would guess it starts at the signing of such a treaty. Then depopulation will automaticly start due to high food prices

The covenant that Daniel spoke of in his prophecy of the 70 weeks, is the one mentioned in verse 4 of the same chapter.

Daniel 9:4
And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

It is God's promise to Abraham that in his seed all nations will be blessed, that Paul called the Gospel in Galatians 3:8.  

Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is about the time of the appearance of Christ, which was to occur at the end of 69 weeks, and about the things that have to do with the gospel mentioned in Daniel 9:24. In the 70th week in Daniel's prophecy Christ confirms his covenant with many. This is what Jesus came to accomplish, and he is still doing it today.

Dispensationalists misinterpret Daniel's prophecy by saying another temple must be built in Jerusalem by the Jews, for an 'abomination of desolation' to be set up. Some think that perhaps an individual human antichrist figure, declaring himself to be God in such a temple, would fulfill the prophecy. Others have claimed that it refers to the papacy. In this post (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7491.msg86611#msg86611) I quoted from an article on the subject from The Imperial Bible Dictionary, which suggested there is "a profound spiritual meaning in the prophecy, such as thoughtful and serious minds alone could apprehend."

In the New Testament, the Church is called the temple of God, and the Mosaic system of temple worship and sacrifice was said to have in it "a shadow of things to come." The law contained many types and figures Christ, the Church, and the gospel.

The abomination of desolation that Jesus referred to need not be something that happens in a literal temple, such as occurred in the second century BC in the reign of Antiochus IV, but may refer to some desolating influence affecting the Church, the spiritual temple. It occurs in the last "week" of the 70 weeks, which is the last of the three sections of the 70 weeks. Daniel wrote, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people." Who are Daniel's people? Since Daniel was a prophet, he is one of the saints who are included in the foundation of the temple, which is the church. [Ephesians 2:20] The temple that is made desolate is not an earthly temple made with hands, but the one God is building without hands.

Daniel 12:1 refers to those who are "written in the book," which is the book of life mentioned by Moses [Exodus 32:32], and by David, in a prophecy about Christ. [Psalm 69:28] Also in Psalm 139:16. And Paul refers to it in his epistle to the Philippians, and he said his coworkers have their names written in it.

Philippians 4:3
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

The other references to the book of life are in Revelation 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12, 15, 21:27, 22:19. The people whose names are in the book of life are the people of the covenant, which is the church of all ages, and the prophets and apostles are its foundation.

Four periods of seven times are outlined in Leviticus 26. These are four periods of "seven times" of a curse that would come upon Israel if they failed to keep the covenant. Daniel's phrase "a time, times, and a half" refers to half of "seven times."

In the prelude to the 70 weeks prophecy, Daniel says the curse of the law of Moses was poured upon Israel during their captivity in Babylon. He wrote:

Daniel 9:11
Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

According to this, the first of the four periods of "seven times" must have been already fulfilled by the Babylonian exile. We can see that the other three periods of "seven times" in Leviticus 26 correspond to the three sections of the 70 weeks, as "weeks" are another way of saying "seven times," where the word "times" has varying units in each of the three sections of Daniel's prophecy, the 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week, that together add up to 70 weeks.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

B. H. Carroll takes the "most holy place" to be a reference to the Church. In "An Interpretation of the English Bible, Daniel and the Inter-Biblical Period," he wrote:

Anointing the most holy, or the consecration of the new antitypical temple (Acts 2): Upon this point commentators have been hard pressed. They seem to think it necessary for them to prove that this anointing is the anointing of a person, and therefore labor to show that it was fulfilled at Christ's baptism when he was anointed by the Holy Spirit. It is possible to make a plausible showing in this direction, and the Hebrew would admit, by strained argument, this application. For many reasons, however, I am myself convinced that we should follow the clearer meaning of the Hebrew that it was the anointing of a holy place - not a person. When the tabernacle was built, Moses was required to anoint it. Now, as both tabernacle and Temple are superseded, the question arises, has God no temple on earth, no sanctuary? The New Testament is clear that the antitype on earth of the Jewish tabernacle and Temple is the church of Jesus Christ. Paul says to the Corinthians: "Ye are God's building; ye are the temple of the living God." And in the letter to the Ephesians he says, with reference to every church: "In Christ each several building fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord." And concerning the church at Ephesus, he says: "In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the spirit." Jesus himself instituted his church. He took the material that John had prepared for him and added to it other material prepared by himself in confirming the covenant with many Jews during his ministry, established its ordinances of baptism and the Lord's Supper, ordained its apostles, set them in the church, gave to the church its laws, but said to them, "Tarry ye in Jerusalem until ye are endued with power from on high." Just as the tabernacle, when it was completed by Solomon became also an habitation of God through the infilling cloud, so now, having condemned and emptied and made desolate the old Temple, it becomes necessary to anoint a new most holy to take its place. This was fulfilled, as recorded in Acts 2, when the church was anointed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Carroll supports the idea that it is the Church that was anointed by the Spirit of God. And it is to be anointed again. Many scriptures confirm this; for example Zechariah speaks of "living water" flowing from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:10), and "living water" is a phrase used by Jesus, when he spoke of the Spirit of God. How could "living water" flow from the Church, unless it was first "anointed" by the Spirit of God?

John 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John makes it abundantly clear what this "living water" meant in the following verse. "But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified."

In Zechariah's prophecy, the "Jerusalem" from which the "living water" flows means the Church, which is identified as the "holy city" and the "New Jerusalem" and the bride of the Lamb in Revelation.

Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The prophecy of the 70 weeks has three sections, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week. The first two sections end at the appearance of Christ, at the beginning of his ministry.

The question of what are the appropriate units to be used for each section of the 70 weeks is crucial for discovering a correct interpretation. Most commentators assume the 70 weeks are 70 x 7=490 years. However, if the decree of Cyrus in 538 BC is taken as the start date, the 70 weeks are clearly not 490 years.

Other scriptures can help us to properly interpret Daniel's numbers. John uses the expression "time, times and a half" in Revelation; he also uses 1,260 days and 42 months, which all allude to Daniel's time periods. The numbers 1,290 days and 1,335 days mentioned in Daniel 12 also represent a symbolic three and a half years where there are various combinations of leap years and regular years, and months of 30 days. They numbers all fit the pattern of "a time, times, and a half."

It is impossible for a literal period of time to have such widely different numbers of days, but a symbol can be expressed in various ways, and the "time, times and a half," the final half-week of the 70 weeks, is symbolic, so can have different numeric values. The following numbers all refer to the "time, times and a half," and fit the pattern given in that expression.

1,290 days = 13*30 + 2*12*30 + 12*30/2  (Daniel 12:11)
1,335 days = 12*30 + 2*13*30 + 13*30/2  (Daniel 12:12)
1,260 days = 12*30 + 2*12*30 + 12*30/2  (Revelation 12:6)

The 1,290 days and the 1,335 days of Daniel 12 cannot be literal periods of three years and a half, as lunar months are not exactly 30 days. These numbers show leap years, with an extra month, are employed in the prophecies of Daniel. I suggest the first section of the 70 weeks prophecy may also be leap years.

John in Revelation also used the pattern of "a time, times, and a half" in his 1,260 days, and months of 30 days, but his symbolic three and a half years all had 12 months, as in the Roman calendar, all years had 12 months.

The late James Burton Coffman of Abilene Christian University also recognized that the "time, times, and a half" of Daniel is symbolic, and said it represents the entire period between the First and Second Advents of Jesus Christ, the "whole Christian dispensation." [Coffman, J.B., 1989. Commentary on Daniel, ACU Press, p. 189]

Coffman identified the "time, times, and a half" with the 1,290 days and the 1,335 days of Daniel 12, and with the 1,260 days of Revelation 11 & 12. Commenting on the 1,260 days of Revelation 12:6, Coffman wrote:

A thousand two hundred and threescore days ... What can this mean? Is there a certain time-period only when Christ will be with his church? No indeed! This time-period represents every minute of the whole Christian dispensation. This is given in exactly the same form as in Rev. 11:3; and there it was understood as all of the time between the two Advents of Christ, and so it must be understood here. "It describes the period of this world's existence during the whole of which the devil persecutes the church." It is also called forty-two months; and someone has suggested that this was the number of the forty-two stations of the Israelites in the wilderness. Hendriksen called this time-period "the millennium of Rev. 20"; and we believe this understanding of it to be correct, despite the description of it there by use of a different figure. The saints of Christ are reigning with him now in his kingdom; and Christ already has the authority in heaven and upon earth (Matthew 28:18-20). His rule is not accepted by many, due to the freedom of the will of man; but that does not contradict the higher truth that Christ is truly reigning today in the hearts of those who love and serve him.

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=012 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=012)

From the decree of Cyrus to the start of the ministry of Christ in 28 AD is 567 years. The 7 weeks and the 62 weeks fit this time span if we use leap years for the first 7 weeks, as 7x7=49 leap years spans 133 years. In the ancient Hebrew calendar, months were lunar, and some years had an extra month. These can be called leap years. Regular years had 12 months, and leap years had 13 months. There were 7 leap years in 19 years. So in a three year period there would be at least one leap year, and possibly two. Leap years can be considered a unit of time, much like Olympiads were for the Greeks.

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The 70th week began when Christ began his ministry in 28 AD, and continues to the end of the age. Christ was "cut off" at the end of the first half-week of years. The notion of a gap between the 69th and 70th week is disproved by Daniel 9:27, "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." That happened in 70 AD, which must be "in the midst of" the 70th week and shows that the last three and a half years are not literal years but a symbol of a much longer period of time, the entire age of the Church, in which Christ "confirms the covenant" with believers and the gospel goes to the world. Daniel 9:4 describes God as "keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him". What covenant is it that Christ confirms for one week in Daniel 9:27? The same one, of course! It is the gospel of our salvation, that Christ confirms by sending his holy spirit to those who believe.

Doug

The abomination of desolation comes from the law, Daniel was reminding the Jew not us...

Leviticus 26:14'But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments,

   15 if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, and so break My covenant,

   16 I, in turn, will do this to you:

30 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.

   31'I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your temple desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas.

   32'I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it.

   33'You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste."

The abomination of desolation is a reference to the Jewish law covenant. Daniel was reminding them of their agreement and the path they where living was bringing in judgement for their violation.

The result is what Hebrews 4 tells us, we then enter the rest...

Leviticus 26:34 'Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths.

   35'All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it.



This whole thing is the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new, that's why it was brought up by Jesus when Jesus warned the disciples, not you or I, but He specifically warned His disciples in front of Him that day,

Matthew 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place"

This hasnothing to do with anything coming, The abomination of desolation was about the Temple and the promises of God being taken away from the Jew and given to another. The Jew was being left desolate.

Quote from: Dallas on January 02, 2010, 12:36:50 AM

This whole thing is the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new, that's why it was brought up by Jesus when Jesus warned the disciples, not you or I, but He specifically warned His disciples in front of Him that day,

Matthew 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place"

This hasnothing to do with anything coming, The abomination of desolation was about the Temple and the promises of God being taken away from the Jew and given to another. The Jew was being left desolate.

If this were true, why would Jesus tell them not to return back for their clothes? Jesus said, in the verses that follow,

Matthew 24:16-18
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

There is clearly a warning about clothes in the above verses. A very superficial view is to see this as being about literal clothes. But Jesus showed that clothes have a spiritual significance for Christians, in his parable of the wedding feast.

Matthew 22:8-13
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The message of the sign of the abomination of desolation appears to be that when that sign is seen, probably referring to a spiritual condition of desolation affecting the church, Jesus wants us to receive the spiritual clothes that he provides.

John tells us white clothes made of fine linen represent the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:8
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Those who follow Jesus, the armies in heaven, are clothed in white linen too.

Revelation 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

In this chapter, Jesus makes war with all his enemies, which include all the false teachings and flawed interpretations of scripture, by his word, represented by the sword proceeding from his mouth. Those who have on the proper clothes are blessed.

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Doug

Because your still in a book of Jews, Israel and you don't see it yet. Matt. Mark , Luke John etc.

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 02, 2010, 04:09:24 AM
Because your still in a book of Jews, Israel and you don't see it yet. Matt. Mark , Luke John etc.

This might help.

Israel in God's Plan (http://www.christilling.de/articles/stevemotyer.pdf), by Steve Motyer

Doug

The author states his paper is from a "Reformed" position.  Reformed as in "Calvanist"?

He also says this; "Suffice it to say that there are other ways of reading it [all Israel shall be saved], than that Paul is predicting a mass endtime conversion of the Jews."  Since believing in UR, I recently understood and hoped it would be the case that it would occur as scripture seems to me to indicate.  I.e., that when the time of the Gentiles has come in, then all Israel will be saved.  :Chinscratch:

QuoteThe message of the sign of the abomination of desolation appears to be that when that sign is seen, probably referring to a spiritual condition of desolation affecting the church, Jesus wants us to receive the spiritual clothes that he provides.

Well i see that you have this all understood, thought it was a discussion, my bad.

I presented information that is solid, fact based and very highly scriptural and you wash it away without even looking at it... and wash it away with a personal interpretation that isn't even biblically "on topic" or in context...

Enjoy looking for the end to come and get ya.

Quote from: jabcat on January 02, 2010, 07:02:04 AM
The author states his paper is from a "Reformed" position.  Reformed as in "Calvanist"?

Maybe not. He is Lecturer at the London School of Theology, "He has a First in Classics and Theology from the University of Cambridge and has studied at Tuebingen and Bristol Universities. He has a doctorate from London University for a thesis on the Jews in John's Gospel." I think he is an Anglican minister.

Quote from: jabcat on January 02, 2010, 07:02:04 AM
He also says this; "Suffice it to say that there are other ways of reading it [all Israel shall be saved], than that Paul is predicting a mass endtime conversion of the Jews."  Since believing in UR, I recently understood and hoped it would be the case that it would occur as scripture seems to me to indicate.  I.e., that when the time of the Gentiles has come in, then all Israel will be saved.  :Chinscratch:

Another interesting read is:

Israel and the Church: Who are God's Chosen People? (http://www.christianzionism.org/BibleSays/Sizer03.pdf) by Steven Sizer

It is ironic that some Christian Zionists accuse their critics of holding to a 'replacement theology' – the idea that the Church has replaced Israel - when many actually believe Israel will soon replace the Church as God's people on earth. They have, as Dr Gilbert Bilezikian observed, made, 'Israel the bride and the Church the concubine'.

Dr. Sizer is also an Anglican minister.

Doug

Quote from: Dallas on January 02, 2010, 07:11:31 AM

QuoteThe message of the sign of the abomination of desolation appears to be that when that sign is seen, probably referring to a spiritual condition of desolation affecting the church, Jesus wants us to receive the spiritual clothes that he provides.

Well i see that you have this all understood, thought it was a discussion, my bad.

I presented information that is solid, fact based and very highly scriptural and you wash it away without even looking at it... and wash it away with a personal interpretation that isn't even biblically "on topic" or in context...

Enjoy looking for the end to come and get ya.

Actually, it was your post that ignored what I had previously written about Leviticus 26. I had stated:

In the prelude to the 70 weeks prophecy, Daniel says the curse of the law of Moses was poured upon Israel during their captivity in Babylon. He wrote:

Daniel 9:11
Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

According to this, the first of the four periods of "seven times" must have been already fulfilled by the Babylonian exile. We can see that the other three periods of "seven times" in Leviticus 26 correspond to the three sections of the 70 weeks, as "weeks" are another way of saying "seven times," where the word "times" has varying units in each of the three sections of Daniel's prophecy, the 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week, that together add up to 70 weeks.

In Leviticus 26, there are four periods of "seven times" of the curse, during which Israel walks contrary to God, and God walks contrary to Israel.

The first of these, Daniel says, was already poured out upon Israel when he made his prayer of confession, and his prophecy of the 70 weeks incorporates the others in the three sections of the 70 weeks.

The first "seven times" (Lev 26:18) corresponds to the captivity in Babylon. This seven times apparently corresponds to the 49 years from the destruction of Jerusalem, 587 BC, to the decree of Cyrus in 538 BC that allowed the Jews to return to their homeland. Isaiah said Cyrus would give the word for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple.
   
Isaiah 44:24-28
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
27 That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

The second "seven times" (Lev 26:21) dates from the decree of Cyrus, in 538 BC, and spans 7 "weeks," which can be interpreted as 7 x 7 = 49 leap years, that is, years having an extra month. 49 leap years span 133 years, as there are 7 leap years in a period of 19 years.

The third "seven times" (Lev 26:24) consists of 62 weeks, which correspond to 62 of the 7-year sabbatical cycles of the law. These begin in 405 BC and extend to 28 AD, and span 434 years. They end when Jesus began his ministry. The number 62 was the age of Darius/Cyrus when he became king of Babylon.

The fourth "seven times" (Lev 26:28) corresponds to the final week, the 70th week in Daniel 9. It is the week Jesus confirms the covenant with his saints. This covenant is not the Mosaic law, but the covenant and promise God made to Abraham long before the law of Moses was given.

The first half-week of the 70th week was the earthly ministry of Jesus, ending at the crucifixion. The last half-week is the "time, times and a half," which is one half of "seven times," and it is the Bible's symbol for the duration of the ministry of the church. In the entire span of the 70 weeks, there is no gap, as the dispensationalists claim, because that implies a lapse in the curse, which would mean Christ was temporarily reconciled to Israel, which has not happened. Any reconciliation is permanent.

The prophecy of Leviticus 26 shows that God was going to "remember" his covenant in the last "seven times," not abolish it, or forget about it.

Leviticus 26:40-45
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

The claim by some hyper preterists that the covenant was abolished or abandoned is false, and contradicts what is written here.

Doug

Some" you like this fight with hyper this and hyper that. with out using names.

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 02, 2010, 04:54:50 PM
Some" you like this fight with hyper this and hyper that. with out using names.

I reviewed the whole spectrum of interpretations, from ultradispensationalism to hyper-preterism here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7450.msg86672#msg86672). Many names are mentioned.

Doug

Quote from: Dallas on January 02, 2010, 12:36:50 AM
The abomination of desolation comes from the law, Daniel was reminding the Jew not us...

Leviticus 26:14'But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments,

   15 if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, and so break My covenant,

   16 I, in turn, will do this to you:

30 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.

   31'I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your temple desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas.

   32'I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it.

   33'You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste."

The abomination of desolation is a reference to the Jewish law covenant. Daniel was reminding them of their agreement and the path they where living was bringing in judgement for their violation.

The result is what Hebrews 4 tells us, we then enter the rest...

Leviticus 26:34 'Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths.

   35'All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it.



This whole thing is the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new, that's why it was brought up by Jesus when Jesus warned the disciples, not you or I, but He specifically warned His disciples in front of Him that day,

Matthew 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place"

This hasnothing to do with anything coming, The abomination of desolation was about the Temple and the promises of God being taken away from the Jew and given to another. The Jew was being left desolate.

Hi Dallas,

Would you mind going into a little more detail on (Dan. 9:25-27)?  I am pretty sure that vers 25 is speaking about Christ but who is the prince in verse 26 that causes the sacrifice to cease. Verse 26) "the people of the prince THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;" Who is this talking about? It seems that this same prince will cause the sacrifices to cease. It doesn't sound like it is Christ, although because of his death sacrifices have ceased.

What is your take on this?

Lee -

QuoteSome" you like this fight with hyper this and hyper that. with out using names.

:happyclap: :banana: freak'n hi-larious...


Doug -

QuoteThe first half-week of the 70th week was the earthly ministry of Jesus, ending at the crucifixion. The last half-week is the "time, times and a half," which is one half of "seven times," and it is the Bible's symbol for the duration of the ministry of the church. In the entire span of the 70 weeks, there is no gap, as the dispensationalists claim, because that implies a lapse in the curse, which would mean Christ was temporarily reconciled to Israel, which has not happened. Any reconciliation is permanent.

The prophecy of Leviticus 26 shows that God was going to "remember" his covenant in the last "seven times," not abolish it, or forget about it.

Yup, The abomination of desolation took place upon Israel, AD70 was the fullness of it when Caesar Titus stood in the destroyed Temple saying that since he destroyed Isreal's God it proves that he alone, Ceasar was God.

QuoteHi Dallas,

Would you mind going into a little more detail on (Dan. 9:25-27)?  I am pretty sure that vers 25 is speaking about Christ but who is the prince in verse 26 that causes the sacrifice to cease. Verse 26) "the people of the prince THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;" Who is this talking about? It seems that this same prince will cause the sacrifices to cease. It doesn't sound like it is Christ, although because of his death sacrifices have ceased.

What is your take on this?

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

To finish the transgression*, is refering to the breaking of the covenant, the legal covenant of Exodus 19
To make an end of sin, is refering to the curse in the garden and God's promise to reconcile Gen 3
To make atonement for iniquity, to include the Hebrew people in the restitution Jerimiah 31: 31-34
To bring everlasting righteousness, to establish the new covenant (to many scriptures to quote)
To seal up vision and prophecy, by bringing an end to the old covenant there will be no more workers of the old covenant
To anoint the most holy place, Jesus pouring His blood out in the real temple in the real heaven

*The transgression, this is a legal term and always is connected to the law, just as Paul points out in Romans where there is no law there can be no transgression of the law


Daniel 9:25"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress."

This is simply what it says, just as the other verse, this is instruction to build the temple...

Daniel 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."

That says just what it says, Rome, Ceasar, will have Messiah put to death and Ceasar (people of the prince are "Rome") will have Rome destroy Jerusalem.

Daniel 9: 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

And here is Armegeddon, when Jesus is at the 3 1/2 times,.... in Matthew 24 Jesus said, "15"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

Instead of the full week, we are given the half week, 3 1/2... a time (1 unit), a times (2 units) and half time to bring about the end.

This is the pictures of Jesus coming in Revelation to take out all the bad guys so to speak... To comment on this to bring all things into perspective I would be writing for along time...

So if you take the three verses into context with in themselves you have a Idea layed out, Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city.... the next words are talking about the walking out of that. This is the end of Jerusalem and what that is going to look like.

Rome is the destructor, led by Ceasar, and Messiah will establish a new world after the old world is put away.

God is using Rome to do God's will.

Quote from: Dallas on January 03, 2010, 05:51:35 AM
Yup, The abomination of desolation took place upon Israel, AD70 was the fullness of it when Caesar Titus stood in the destroyed Temple saying that since he destroyed Isreal's God it proves that he alone, Ceasar was God.

You're right Dallas...at the final desecration of the Temple, a sacrifice was made to the Roman standards in the Temple court i.e. the Roman Eagle being one of the standards...interesting to note that many modern nations today has the eagle as a national "standard"
Titus also offered a pig on the altar to his gods to to really p-off the judeans

the victory over Judea is depicted on the arch of Titus which still stands next to the Colosseum in Rome today...it shows for instance the carrying away of the Temple implements (like the Menorah) by the Romans

as far as prophecy goes, it tends to repeat itself in a short and longer term application...
I think the modern desolation of the Temple would be the building of the third temple and resumption of animal sacrifices...that would be going backwards w.r.t God's covenants with man, as He also declared through the prophets that His glory has departed from Jerusalem just as it did from Shiloh

Jesus came to introduce the new covenant, where the new Temple is made of living stones and the wall of separation that separated jew and gentile in the old temple, was removed by his new covenant...also access to God is now directly possible as at Jesus's death, the curtain dividing the holy and most holy was also torn from top to bottom...

QuoteTitus also offered a pig on the altar to his gods to to really p-off the judeans

Cool, I didn't know about that... totally driving the knife with a twist!! LOL... anit-pig people.

Daniel 9:24		Commentary
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people		Who are Daniel's people? Is it the Jews? No, Daniel was a prophet, so he is included in the church's foundation. [Eph 2:20] Daniel's people are the saints, those who have their names in the book of life. [Dan 12:1]
and upon thy holy city,		The 70 weeks apply to the church, not merely the Jews, or the earthly Jerusalem, which was a type of the heavenly Jerusalem. [Heb 12:22-23]
to finish the transgression,		Leviticus 26 shows that the transgression, and the curse, come to an end when four periods of "seven times" are fulfilled. These are explained by the 70 weeks prophecy. The curse is abolished in the holy city, that John describes in Revelation 21 & 22; "And there shall be no more curse." [Revelation 22:3]
and to make an end of sins,		Those included in the holy city, and in the new covenant, have their sins taken way.
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,		Christ accomplished this by his death for us on the cross.
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,		The gospel reveals the righteousness of God, Paul said. [Romans 1:16-17]
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,		Sealing up the vision and prophecy is accomplished by the 70 weeks prophecy itself. Interpreting it has stumped many. Most interpretations are confused. Dispensationalists insert a gap of thousands of years between the 69th and 70th week, which of course is a fallacy, as time has no gaps. Many preterists also invoke a gap, but a smaller one, in order to include the destruction of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans within the last week.
and to anoint the most Holy.		What is it that is anointed? This anointing is symbolic of the Spirit of God. The temple that is promised this anointing is the church, the bride of the Lamb in Revelation 19. The church will receive an anointing by the Spirit, according to Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. Christ is the temple of the heavenly Jerusalem. [Revelation 21:22]

Doug

Quote from: Dallas on January 03, 2010, 06:27:28 AM

QuoteHi Dallas,

Would you mind going into a little more detail on (Dan. 9:25-27)?  I am pretty sure that vers 25 is speaking about Christ but who is the prince in verse 26 that causes the sacrifice to cease. Verse 26) "the people of the prince THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;" Who is this talking about? It seems that this same prince will cause the sacrifices to cease. It doesn't sound like it is Christ, although because of his death sacrifices have ceased.

What is your take on this?

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

To finish the transgression*, is refering to the breaking of the covenant, the legal covenant of Exodus 19
To make an end of sin, is refering to the curse in the garden and God's promise to reconcile Gen 3
To make atonement for iniquity, to include the Hebrew people in the restitution Jerimiah 31: 31-34
To bring everlasting righteousness, to establish the new covenant (to many scriptures to quote)
To seal up vision and prophecy, by bringing an end to the old covenant there will be no more workers of the old covenant
To anoint the most holy place, Jesus pouring His blood out in the real temple in the real heaven

*The transgression, this is a legal term and always is connected to the law, just as Paul points out in Romans where there is no law there can be no transgression of the law


Daniel 9:25"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress."

This is simply what it says, just as the other verse, this is instruction to build the temple...

Daniel 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."

That says just what it says, Rome, Ceasar, will have Messiah put to death and Ceasar (people of the prince are "Rome") will have Rome destroy Jerusalem.

Daniel 9: 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

And here is Armegeddon, when Jesus is at the 3 1/2 times,.... in Matthew 24 Jesus said, "15"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

Instead of the full week, we are given the half week, 3 1/2... a time (1 unit), a times (2 units) and half time to bring about the end.

This is the pictures of Jesus coming in Revelation to take out all the bad guys so to speak... To comment on this to bring all things into perspective I would be writing for along time...

So if you take the three verses into context with in themselves you have a Idea layed out, Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city.... the next words are talking about the walking out of that. This is the end of Jerusalem and what that is going to look like.

Rome is the destructor, led by Ceasar, and Messiah will establish a new world after the old world is put away.

God is using Rome to do God's will.

Thank you Dallas,

You said a lot in a few words, exactly the way I like it.  One more question. Are you saying that there is still 3 1/2 years left of this prophecy that will be fulfilled in the future?  Maybe I am misunderstanding you on this, if so, please explain.

CHB

QuoteThank you Dallas,

You said a lot in a few words, exactly the way I like it.  One more question. Are you saying that there is still 3 1/2 years left of this prophecy that will be fulfilled in the future?  Maybe I am misunderstanding you on this, if so, please explain.

CHB

No it was all walked out in the church, and the 40 years, the last generation.

The whole thing is connected to the covenant agreement, when I was resolved the covenant was finished, put away.


Example;

I agree to shampoo your house on a Friday and you agree to pay me $50 on that following Saturday after the work is complete.

That Saturday (After your Judgement of the Work) you pay me my due.

There is absolutley no way, I can come back a week later and ask for more money, just as you can't take your money back a week later.

Why, because that particular agreement was finshed, completed and was put away, if you want your carpets cleaned you would have to enter into another agreement.

Peace.

Doug-

QuoteThe 70 weeks apply to the church

No it doesn't. It applies to those people who made the agreement in Exodus 19.

If I am married and get divorced, and later I get married that doesn't mean that my new wife gets included into the old deal, and the divorce settelment.

The New Covenant Church doesn't get grafted into the Old Covenant, they inherit the promises from the rewards handed out to Jesus. The Hebrew covenant was the old wife, the New Covenant Church is the new wife.

The old vows that He took with the former wife doesn't have any bearing on the new wife.

QuoteWhat is it that is anointed? This anointing is symbolic of the Spirit of God. The temple that is promised this anointing is the church, the bride of the Lamb in Revelation 19. The church will receive an anointing by the Spirit, according to Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. Christ is the temple of the heavenly Jerusalem. [Revelation 21:22]

This is fulfilled on the cross... and His blood annoited the holiest of holies (mercy seat) in Heaven which made that possible... Hebrews 9 explains that Jesus fulfilled His priestly duties by going into the real holy of holies and poured His blood out.

This was a real event, it took place after His ascension. He returned to heaven, poured His blood in the real temple, came out and declared restitution and then recieved His inheritance and then sat down on the throne at the right hand of God, thus bringing an end to the old reign and bringing in the new.
The new reign flooded the whole earth, destroying all the old remenants of the old covenant and those who held to the old. The temple, the Jew, and sacrifce along with it.

This whole scene from Jesus' to Parousia, took one biblical generation, a period of 40 years, just as was promised, one generation to repent.

Daniel 9:24		Commentary
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people		Who are Daniel's people? Is it the Jews? No, Daniel was a prophet, so he is included in the church's foundation. [Ephesians 2:20] Daniel's people are the saints, those who have their names in the book of life. [Daniel 12:1]
and upon thy holy city,		The 70 weeks apply to the church, not merely the Jews, or the earthly Jerusalem, which was a type of the heavenly Jerusalem. [Hebrews 12:22-23]
to finish the transgression,		Leviticus 26 shows that the transgression, and the curse, come to an end when four periods of "seven times" are fulfilled. These are explained by the 70 weeks prophecy. The curse is abolished in the holy city, that John describes in Revelation 21 & 22; "And there shall be no more curse." [Revelation 22:3]
and to make an end of sins,		Those included in the holy city, and in the new covenant, have their sins taken way.
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,		Christ accomplished this by his death for us on the cross.
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,		The gospel reveals the righteousness of God, Paul said. [Romans 1:16-17]
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,		Sealing up the vision and prophecy is accomplished by the 70 weeks prophecy itself. Interpreting it has stumped many. Most interpretations are confused. Dispensationalists insert a gap of thousands of years between the 69th and 70th week, which of course is a fallacy, as time has no gaps. Many preterists also invoke a gap, but a smaller one, in order to include the destruction of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans within the last week.
and to anoint the most Holy.		What is it that is anointed? This anointing is symbolic of the Spirit of God. The temple that is promised this anointing is the church, the bride of the Lamb in Revelation 19. The church will receive an anointing by the Spirit, according to Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. Christ is the temple of the heavenly Jerusalem. [Revelation 21:22]
Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:		The commandment is the one given by Cyrus in 538 BC. [Isaiah 44:28] The two sections of the 70 weeks, of 7 weeks and 62 weeks, correspond to the second and third periods of "seven times" in Leviticus 26. The 7 weeks is best interpreted as 49 leap years having an extra month, that span 133 years. The 62 weeks is 434 years, and these together are 567 years ending in 28 AD, the year Jesus began his ministry.
the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.		The earthly Jerusalem was rebuilt after the Jews returned from exile. It was a type of the church's restoration.
Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:		Jesus was crucified in 30 AD. Many of the prophets spoke of it.
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;		The earthly city and sanctuary were destroyed by the Romans, yet the prophecy may also apply to the church, and the prince may refer to the spirit of Antichrist.
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,		This flood likely refers to a flood of false doctrines; "the flood from the mouth of the serpent." [Revelation 12:15]
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.		The desolations and warfare have the same duration. A "war in heaven" is mentioned in Revelation 12:7. Christ and his armies make war with all nations in Revelation 19:19. The war represents a spiritual struggle, that includes the conflicts within the church over the interpretation of the prophecies of scripture.
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:		The covenant that Christ confirms with his saints for one week is the new covenant, which is based upon the covenant of promise made to Abraham. Zacharias said: "To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham." [Luke 1:72-73] Paul called it the gospel. [Galatians 3:8] This 70th week corresponds to the last of the four periods of "seven times" in Leviticus 26. It is when God remembers his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and is reconciled to Israel. It began when Jesus began his ministry, and was baptized by John the Baptist, and includes the entire time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,		The sacrifices and drink offerings ceased when the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by the Romans, in 70 AD. This event divides the 70th week into two sections. The last half-week is the "time, times and a half," a symbol for the remaining time of the church.
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,		This desolation occurs after the sacrifices and drink offerings have ceased, which was in the midst of the last week. Tregelles translates, "upon the wing of abominations shall be that which causeth desolation." The NASB says "and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate." It is the church that has become desolate!
even until the consummation,		This desolation extends to the end of the age. [Daniel 12:7]
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.		The "anointing" of the church by the Spirit of God destroys the delusions of the Antichrist.

Doug

Quote from: Dallas on January 04, 2010, 06:43:27 AM
Doug-

QuoteThe 70 weeks apply to the church

No it doesn't. It applies to those people who made the agreement in Exodus 19.

What about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Jesus said they will be in the kingdom of God. [Luke 13:28] They are listed among the faithful in Hebrews 11.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Quote from: Dallas on January 04, 2010, 06:43:27 AM

If I am married and get divorced, and later I get married that doesn't mean that my new wife gets included into the old deal, and the divorce settelment.

The New Covenant Church doesn't get grafted into the Old Covenant, they inherit the promises from the rewards handed out to Jesus. The Hebrew covenant was the old wife, the New Covenant Church is the new wife.

The old vows that He took with the former wife doesn't have any bearing on the new wife.

Paul taught that those who believe are children of Abraham, and of Sarah.

Galatians 4:31
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

He said all the OT scriptures were intended for our benefit. 

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

The church is represented by the freewoman in Galatians 4:24-26. The freewoman was Sarah, Abraham's wife. The Jews under the Mosaic system are represented by Hagar, the Egyptian bondwoman, who was the handmaiden of Sarah.
   
The promises of God were indeed inherited by Jesus, as Paul says.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Christ came to confirm all those promises, not abolish them.

Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

This is why Daniel says he will confirm the covenant for one week; it is not a literal week, but includes the entire age of the church. Christ continues to confirm the covenant with his saints.

Quote from: Dallas on January 04, 2010, 06:43:27 AM

QuoteWhat is it that is anointed? This anointing is symbolic of the Spirit of God. The temple that is promised this anointing is the church, the bride of the Lamb in Revelation 19. The church will receive an anointing by the Spirit, according to Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. Christ is the temple of the heavenly Jerusalem. [Revelation 21:22]

This is fulfilled on the cross... and His blood annoited the holiest of holies (mercy seat) in Heaven which made that possible... Hebrews 9 explains that Jesus fulfilled His priestly duties by going into the real holy of holies and poured His blood out.

This was a real event, it took place after His ascension. He returned to heaven, poured His blood in the real temple, came out and declared restitution and then recieved His inheritance and then sat down on the throne at the right hand of God, thus bringing an end to the old reign and bringing in the new.
The new reign flooded the whole earth, destroying all the old remenants of the old covenant and those who held to the old. The temple, the Jew, and sacrifce along with it.

This whole scene from Jesus' to Parousia, took one biblical generation, a period of 40 years, just as was promised, one generation to repent.

Hebrews 10 speaks of having our "hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience."

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

In the OT it was the people who were sprinkled with the blood of the covenant.

Exodus 24:8
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

In the NT also, it is the saints who are sprinkled with the blood of Jesus.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Doug

Thanks Dallas, you have helped me more than you know.

Sorry for so many questions but here are a few more.

What is there to look for in the future?  Will Christ return again? Will there be a millennium?

CHB

Quote from: CHB on January 04, 2010, 03:41:03 PM

What is there to look for in the future?  Will Christ return again? Will there be a millennium?

CHB

Discovering more and more of WHO WE ARE

 :cloud9: And who He is, IN US....... :thumbsup:

Quote from: Cardinal on January 04, 2010, 05:33:04 PM
:cloud9: And who He is, IN US....... :thumbsup:

and He and I are ONE. 

Quote from: Zeek on January 04, 2010, 03:51:33 PM

Quote from: CHB on January 04, 2010, 03:41:03 PM

What is there to look for in the future?  Will Christ return again? Will there be a millennium?

CHB

Discovering more and more of WHO WE ARE

Zeek,

Not exactly the answer I was looking for. although, I know you are right on this.

CHB

Quote from: Zeek on January 04, 2010, 03:51:33 PM

Quote from: CHB on January 04, 2010, 03:41:03 PM

What is there to look for in the future?  Will Christ return again? Will there be a millennium?

CHB

Discovering more and more of WHO WE ARE

"PRETERIST PROPHETIC PHANTASYLAND" (http://www.pilgrimpublications.com/pretrist.htm) by Bob L. Ross

Doug

As a partial preterist, I personally don't care for the author's tone.  I personally believe there is much more to occur, but also think we err by missing/discounting what things have been fulfilled, how they affect our current views and doctrines including our often taking scriptures out of its primary context/misapplying it, and our attitudes about the church, Israel, and God's working of His plan.  I am not saying I necessarily know, understand, or agree with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that's in the following links, I'm still sorting much of this out myself - but if one types in 70 AD in the TM homepage, there are scores of articles about this topic.  I've included just a few for consideration.

The Coming of Christ in 70 AD by Gary Amirault-   http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 5, Tentmaker Home Page - http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch5.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 8, Tantmaker Home Page -
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch8.html

P.S., I don't see how anyone who believes anything about the Bible at all couldn't be called at least a PARTIAL preterist.  Just one example is, if we believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then that's prophecy fulfilled.   :scratchhead:

Quote from: jabcat on January 04, 2010, 08:53:55 PM
P.S., I don't see how anyone who believes anything about the Bible at all couldn't be called at least a PARTIAL preterist.  Just one example is, if we believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then that's prophecy fulfilled.   :scratchhead:

Amen jabcat and thanks for the links to the articles I will certainly read them. You might say I am a partial preterist. I am just not certain of some of the things that are yet to happen and some that have already happened. I like to keep an open mind and check out all things. A few years ago I couldn't see any of these things that full or partial preterist had to say but now I am beginning to see some of it as being true.

CHB

Me too!  :thumbsup:

Isn't there always something to learn?   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jabcat on January 04, 2010, 08:48:53 PM
As a partial preterist, I personally don't care for the author's tone.  I personally believe there is much more to occur, but also think we err by missing/discounting what things have been fulfilled, how they affect our current views and doctrines including our often taking scriptures out of its primary context/misapplying it, and our attitudes about the church, Israel, and God's working of His plan.  I am not saying I necessarily know, understand, or agree with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that's in the following links, I'm still sorting much of this out myself - but if one types in 70 AD in the TM homepage, there are scores of articles about this topic.  I've included just a few for consideration.

The Coming of Christ in 70 AD by Gary Amirault-   http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 5, Tentmaker Home Page - http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch5.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 8, Tantmaker Home Page -
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch8.html

The author of "Prophecy Fulfilled" is David P. Crews, who is also the author of
Opening Up - My Journey from Religion to Rationalism (http://www.newrational.com/joy/journey.html)

It tells "the story of one serious believer's journey into disbelief."

If that's where preterism leads, I'm not really surprised. Jesus said,"by their fruits you will know them."

I am a bit surprised Gary Amirault hosts such a work on his site, and that it would be recommended by you, James!

Doug

Here is a disclaimer for the book hosted here

Quote
Note: This book is an excellent resource for seeing how many of the prophecies in the Bible has already long been fulfilled. That is the main reason we are posting it on our website. However, the author also believes and mentions in his book some beliefs we DEFINITELY DO NOT agree with. We do NOT agree with his teaching on Hell nor his beliefs that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.--Gary Amirault

After reading through the book about a believer heading towards unbelief.    I think it is actually a good thing,  he has ridded himself of Christianity and has actually laid the foundation for a more solid spiritual ground, He just doesn't realize it yet.

There are far to many people that still struggle with spiritual things and you will find the vast majority of this due to the thought that Christianity actually is correct, except for the hell thing,  so change everything to a temporary hell and the rest is ok, that really is not true.

QuoteThanks Dallas, you have helped me more than you know.

Sorry for so many questions but here are a few more.

What is there to look for in the future?  Will Christ return again? Will there be a millennium?

CHB

Will Christ Return?- The question that has to be first asked because it also answers your other question about the millenium, "Does Christ NEED to return?"

What reason does Jesus have to come back for? As Daniel taught us...

Daniel 7:13"I kept looking in the night visions,
        And behold, with the clouds of heaven
        One like a Son of Man was coming,
        And He came up to the Ancient of Days
        And was presented before Him.
     14"And to Him was given dominion,
        Glory and a kingdom,
        That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
        Might serve Him
        His dominion is an everlasting dominion
        Which will not pass away;
        And His kingdom is one
        Which will not be destroyed.

This was what Jesus recieved when He WENT UP into heaven, the ascension. This isn't something we are waiting for. Jesus doesn't come back to set up a kingdom, He went up and recieved it as a gift from His Father. Jesus told us that was going to happen...

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

Jesus did all He needed, when the transfer of Kingdoms took place the new came in and wiped out the old... there is no need to come again for that end. Jesus' Kingdom can not be defeated and is established already forevermore.

So does He need to come... No. Will He? Maybe, but as far as for the scriptures and old covenant is concearned No. What about thr Millenium???

The 1000 years, this is a well established and well know number of illistration used by the Hebrew people to symbolize forever.

Just as Psalms says, "God is the owner of a 1000 cattle on a 1000 hills." Does that mean God doesn't own everything? Of course not, it's simply adressing that God owns all cattle and all the hills, He is God over all.

And Just as Daniel says, Jesus' reign is forever, just like the thousands of scriptures that say His reign and dominion will be forever.


What do we have to look forward too?

This to me is the exciting part. We get to live in the unveiling of righteousness.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 21 "so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The effect of Jesus is spreading throughout the world. Just as sin entered and has polluted man, even the ones we love we have watched ourselves and them suffer greatly, but now we get to see His effect cause restitution to their beings. The growth of freedom and joy and peace invade mankind, take over this world and establish again, the garden of Eden. This will happen internally, and externally.

Not if that weren't enough, because just being healed and set free fom the sin and death in my personal life wasn't enough we are now able to become included into God's life, included into what He does. We will become priests and act as priests...

What does it mean to be preists?

Walk around a church taking confession.... well no.

We forgive people their sin, loose the kingdom rule into the world. Read Dueteronomy, everything te preist was told to do, that is US!!

We haven't even got look at that because we are still battleing each others silly doctrines of right and wrong... all which may have goodness in them but are without substance to bring Peace,Joy, and Righteousness.

We are free, and we get to be the people the prophets of old wished they could see....freedom spreading to the whole world...freedom from sin and death and freedom to walk without shame from judgement...

Freedom to stand before God naked...without shame.

Oh Oh!!

That last post is getting me excited, don't ask a preacher to start preaching!! LOL :banana:

Doctrine debates are boring and self-serving arguments usually... it's letting loose the peace of God upon people, the goodness that they have been brought into God's household, made children, given the robe and made perfect that changes the soul!

Praise and Joy through Jesus.

Quote from: Doug on January 04, 2010, 09:47:09 PM

Quote from: jabcat on January 04, 2010, 08:48:53 PM
As a partial preterist, I personally don't care for the author's tone.  I personally believe there is much more to occur, but also think we err by missing/discounting what things have been fulfilled, how they affect our current views and doctrines including our often taking scriptures out of its primary context/misapplying it, and our attitudes about the church, Israel, and God's working of His plan.  I am not saying I necessarily know, understand, or agree with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that's in the following links, I'm still sorting much of this out myself - but if one types in 70 AD in the TM homepage, there are scores of articles about this topic.  I've included just a few for consideration.

The Coming of Christ in 70 AD by Gary Amirault-   http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 5, Tentmaker Home Page - http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch5.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 8, Tantmaker Home Page -
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch8.html

The author of "Prophecy Fulfilled" is David P. Crews, who is also the author of
Opening Up - My Journey from Religion to Rationalism (http://www.newrational.com/joy/journey.html)

It tells "the story of one serious believer's journey into disbelief."

If that's where preterism leads, I'm not really surprised. Jesus said,"by their fruits you will know them."

I am a bit surprised Gary Amirault hosts such a work on his site, and that it would be recommended by you, James!

Doug

Surely you saw the bolded and underlined part of my post my brother Doug, as well as my statement of "for consideration".  Do you consider that "recommending" something?  I didn't claim to know everything in the books/articles, which I was trying to make clear by the bolded underline.  I didn't read all of those chapter links, and from what I saw, I really think the author takes things farther than I personally would, that I probably stop short of some of the end results of his arguments.  But that doesn't mean there's not some things to look at and consider in there.  I really hope there's nothing in those particular links that are so bad they shouldn't even be read and examined.  I doubt Gary would have them up on the site if they were  :dontknow:.  I didn't know anything about the other book you mention Doug, and it sounds like it's probably something I wouldn't personally be interested in reading, might find it less than helpful.  That's not in any of my links is it, or did you find that through your own search?

I won't attempt to speak for Gary, but I believe he would at least be considered a partial preterist, believing many things were fulfilled in 70 AD - so I would think that would be an important thing to be aware of, and I probably personally would discourage absolute blanket bashing of all things one may consider any form whatsoever of "preterism".  Like I also said, I would think Jesus' death and resurrection prophecies having been fulfilled could be seen as "preteristic".  IMO, there are many different levels and degrees, just as there are about what people believe about different ages/dispensations.  I don't believe having some level of recognition of such things automatically makes someone all one way or the other, ,and therefor in need of being strictly labeled as such.  I believe some of the absolute all-or-none black-and-white labeling of things and others' beliefs can cause problems in our discussing things sometimes (Disclaimer - I'll try little bitty skinny letters this time  :laughing7: - I am not talking about clear Biblical teachings as revealed by the Holy Spirit - obvious things mentioned as sin, Jesus' diety, His death, resurrection, etc., etc.).  I do see those things as being "non-negotiable".  But we do often get off on tangents - perhaps like this one  :laugh:.  Anyway, as I've watched some of the "Yes, Preterist", "No, Preterist" "all one way or the other" arguments, I keep thinking like "uh, Gary's at least partial preterist and has information on TM about such" - maybe we could drop some of the labels (battle lines) and try to find out not only what each other really believes, but mainly, what says the Lord.  But if I can call someone a name (label), and they can call me one, then we can just dig in and who the heck cares what we really think/believe/understand?!?  I mean, if I can say "oh Bob's just a _______", then I don't really have to listen to or investigate what he says.  I can filter everything I hear through what I already believe and keep coming up with the same conclusions.  I ought'a know, I do it if I'm not real careful.   :mblush:

Off soapbox/rant, onward and upward.   :thumbsup:  The Surprising James.  :happy3:

Quote from: Dallas
The effect of Jesus is spreading throughout the world. Just as sin entered and has polluted man, even the ones we love we have watched ourselves and them suffer greatly, but now we get to see His effect cause restitution to their beings. The growth of freedom and joy and peace invade mankind, take over this world and establish again, the garden of Eden. This will happen internally, and externally.

Dallas, I am sorry but I don't see the effect of Jesus spreading. All I see is murder, rape, stealing, you name it and it gets worse everyday. Now I hope this changes Lord knows we need the change but it seems to get worse instead of better.

Quote from: Dallas
Not if that weren't enough, because just being healed and set free fom the sin and death in my personal life wasn't enough we are now able to become included into God's life, included into what He does. We will become priests and act as priests...

I thought the Priests were only of Israel. I don't think the title of priest applies to us. Why will there be a need for priests? Their job was to serve in the temple with offerings and sacrificing, which is done away with. Will you explain how this will be possible?

CHB

Doug -  :handshake:

Quote from: CHB on January 05, 2010, 12:35:45 AM

Dallas, I am sorry but I don't see the effect of Jesus spreading. All I see is murder, rape, stealing, you name it and it gets worse everyday. Now I hope this changes Lord knows we need the change but it seems to get worse instead of better.

CHB

C, I know what you mean about this.  I think about this (and Doug, I'd guess you may relate to this as well) - if EVERYTHING is fulfilled and just keeps getting better and better from here, are we sure we're really seeing this?  Some seem to think they see it, and I don't know if it's my orthodox upbringing regarding "first, the great falling away" that sometimes flavors it for me, my lack of faith and spiritual eyes, but that confuses me a bit as well...one thing I think is "well, maybe things get worse before they get better, but that doesn't mean God is not IN THE PROCESS OF bringing about His kingdom (which of course He is, but hopefully you know what I mean).  The "darkness before dawn" concept.  But sometimes I really wonder about the process, what we're observing, are people really RIGHT NOW becoming more kingdom-minded, learning of Christ, etc.   :dontknow:  As I've said and may need to keep repeating, I just think there's a WHOLE lot more left to occur, namely as God becomes all in all.  My  :2c:

Quote from: CHB on January 05, 2010, 12:35:45 AM


Dallas, I am sorry but I don't see the effect of Jesus spreading. All I see is murder, rape, stealing, you name it and it gets worse everyday. Now I hope this changes Lord knows we need the change but it seems to get worse instead of better.

IMO,

Our "lens" we look through, tends to define the world we see. 

Quote from: jabcat on January 05, 2010, 12:32:42 AM

Quote from: Doug on January 04, 2010, 09:47:09 PM

Quote from: jabcat on January 04, 2010, 08:48:53 PM
As a partial preterist, I personally don't care for the author's tone.  I personally believe there is much more to occur, but also think we err by missing/discounting what things have been fulfilled, how they affect our current views and doctrines including our often taking scriptures out of its primary context/misapplying it, and our attitudes about the church, Israel, and God's working of His plan.  I am not saying I necessarily know, understand, or agree with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that's in the following links, I'm still sorting much of this out myself - but if one types in 70 AD in the TM homepage, there are scores of articles about this topic.  I've included just a few for consideration.

The Coming of Christ in 70 AD by Gary Amirault-   http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 5, Tentmaker Home Page - http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch5.html

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 8, Tantmaker Home Page -
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch8.html

The author of "Prophecy Fulfilled" is David P. Crews, who is also the author of
Opening Up - My Journey from Religion to Rationalism (http://www.newrational.com/joy/journey.html)

It tells "the story of one serious believer's journey into disbelief."

If that's where preterism leads, I'm not really surprised. Jesus said,"by their fruits you will know them."

I am a bit surprised Gary Amirault hosts such a work on his site, and that it would be recommended by you, James!

Doug

Surely you saw the bolded and underlined part of my post my brother Doug, as well as my statement of "for consideration".  Do you think that's really "recommending" something?  I didn't claim to know everything in the books/articles, which I was trying to make clear by the bolded underline.

I won't attempt to speak for Gary, but I believe he would at least be considered a partial preterist, believing many things were fulfilled in 70 AD - so I would think that would be an important thing to be aware of and keep in mind, and I probably personally would discourage absolute blanket bashing of all things one may consider "preterism".  Like I also said, I would think Jesus' death and resurrection prophecies having been fulfilled could be seen as "preteristic".  IMO, there are many different levels and degrees, just as there are about what people believe about different ages/dispensations.  I don't believe having some level of recognition of such things automatically makes someone all one way or the other, ,and therefor in need of being strictly labeled as such.  I believe some of the absolute all-or-none black-and-white labeling of things and others' beliefs can cause problems in our discussing things sometimes (Disclaimer - I'll try little bitty skinny letters this time  :laughing7: - I am not talking about clear Biblical teachings as revealed by the Holy Spirit - obvious things mentioned as sin, Jesus' diety, His death, resurrection, etc., etc.).  I do see those things as being "non-negotiable".  But we do often get off on tangents - perhaps like this one  :laugh:.  Anyway, as I've watched some of the "Yes, Preterist", "No, Preterist" "all one way or the other" arguments, I keep thinking like "uh, Gary's at least partial preterist and has information on TM about such" - maybe we could drop some of the labels (battle lines) and try to find out not only what each other really believes, but mainly, what says the Lord.  But if I can call someone a name (label), and they can call me one, then we can just dig in and who the heck cares what we really think/believe/understand?!?

Off soapbox/rant, onward and upward.   :thumbsup:  The Surprising James.  :happy3:

Okay. I certainly agree that the main thing is to find out "what says the Lord."

Below I address come comments in one of the articles that you listed, by David P. Crews:

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html)

Crews wrote:


[Daniel 12:7]

"It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."
    [NIV]

Here is a prophetic vision of these times when the power of the "holy people" would be broken (that is, the religious authority would be removed from them), and a specific time frame is placed on the process. In the type of symbolic language used in the Hebrew prophecies, the term "time" when used in this way means "one year." The amount of time that was prophesied for the destruction of the Jews was: 1 year ("time") + 2 years ("times") + 1/2 year ("half a time"), equaling 3 1/2 years total. Numerous other references in Daniel, like "thousand two hundred and ninety days," confirm that he means 3 1/2 years for the prophetic time span.

This is incorrect, IMO. Crews insists that "time" has to be interpreted as "year," when in fact the word "time" is indeterminate. It can represent a day, an hour, a month, a year, or several centuries. Crews has based his interpretations on unsound premises. 
   
Crews exhibits a frivolous approach to several prophetic scriptures below, IMO.

Now let us examine the other place in the Bible that has reference to this event and this prophesied time. Let us look for a moment at Revelation, chapters 11 and 12. In 11:2, we read:

    "[the Temple of God] has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."
    [NIV]

and the next verse:

    "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days...."
    [NIV]

and verse 9:

    "For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial."12
    [NIV]

and chapter 12:6 -

    "The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."
    [NIV]

and verse 14:

    "The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half time, out of the serpent's reach."

In all of these prophecy passages the same time period is repeatedly spoken of. The period was to be 3 1/2 years and this would be the times of the Gentiles to overcome the city and people of Jerusalem and Judea. Was the prophecy accurate? Did the Romans take this particular amount of time to accomplish their destructions? The answer is yes. From the date, February of A.D. 67, when the Roman emperor Nero gave the official order to his general Vespasian to go and subdue Judea, to the final destruction of the Temple of Herod and the city, in August of A.D. 70, was in fact three and one-half years.

The prophecy about the 2 witnesses has a spiritual meaning, that the treatment by Crews quoted above fails to grasp. The temple represents the saints, and the Gentiles who trample the city, and occupy the outer court, represent those who claim to be Christians, but are not. These are spiritual Gentiles, who dominate those who are sincere believers, and Jews in the spirit. [Romans 2:29] The prophecy describes [i.e., measures] much of what is called Christianity.

In my view, the two witness in the prophecy are not literal humans, but they are symbolic of the scriptures, and the Spirit of God. Jesus identified these as things that would testify of him. After their ministry, they are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit, and their bodies lie in the street of the city, called Sodom, and Egypt. Both were places from which God's people escaped.

The great city in Revelation 11:8 is not Jerusalem, as Jesus was crucified outside the gate. [Hebrews 13:12] The city of Jerusalem is symbolic of the saints, and the church, and outside the gate represents the world. So the great city where our Lord was crucified represents the world, and mystical Babylon.

I suggest that the warfare between the two witnesses and the beast from the bottomless pit, and their being overcome, and killed by him, is symbolic of widespread disbelief, and the demise of faith, caused by false interpretations of the scriptures, and of prophecy.

The popular systems of interpretation have killed the true message of prophecy as they deny its application to the church in the present age. One view says it applies to Jews in the first century, and another says it applies to Jews in a future seven year tribulation. [I omitted the labels.] These both deny the application of prophecy to the church in the present age. And more serious, they deny that the church is the Israel to which prophecy applies! 

The corpses of the two witnesses lying unburied in the street pictures the attitude of the world to scripture and the Spirit of God. They make jokes about it! And there are many who fit the prophecy of Peter:

2 Peter 2:2
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

The revival of the two witnesses, I suggest, pictures the Spirit of God revealing the true interpretation of prophecy, and imparting the gift of faith to the saints.

Verse 19 of the chapter reveals that the temple of this chapter is located in heaven. So it cannot refer to the one destroyed by the Romans.

The verses in Revelation 12 about the woman fleeing to the wilderness have no connection to the events of 70 AD, but allude to the Exodus. I think the woman fleeing to the wilderness is more likely symbolic of the saints departing from evil, as the Israelites escaped from bondage in Egypt. It is interesting that she flees twice, and I may post something on it later. The wings of eagles, I think, represent the gift of prophecy. And the "time, times and a half" does not refer to a literal three and a half years, but is symbolic. It is half of seven times, which is a prophetic week. It is the week in which Christ confirms the covenant, which in no way fits the period of 70 AD.

Doug

Good post, and I think your understandings are certainly worth considering.  It's a big discussion, and I admittedly see bits and pieces, and agree with bits and pieces of various POVs, and probably understand even less.  There are "sold-out" believers with one presentation, "sold-out" believers with another.  Things to pray about and look to the Lord for understanding.  As I read your post, I was reminded of the concept of literal and spiritual, and multiple layers to the scriptures.  Thanks  :thumbsup:

Zeek,

I guess I am still looking through carnal eyes.  :mblush: I see some good in the world, don't get me wrong. I just don't see how things are improving as far as belief in God, or anything else for that matter. I pretty much see the whole world as being deceived.

jabcat,

I guess you and I see a lot a like on this.

Dallas,

I pretty much agree with everything you have said, I just don't see the world with the same eyes you do, I guess.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on January 05, 2010, 01:24:34 AM

jabcat,

I guess you and I see a lot a like on this.
CHB

We usually do.  I said one time I think we're related.  :laughing7:

Quote from: Dallas on January 04, 2010, 11:51:51 PM
We will become priests and act as priests...

What does it mean to be preists?

Walk around a church taking confession.... well no.

We forgive people their sin, loose the kingdom rule into the world. Read Dueteronomy, everything te preist was told to do, that is US!!

:cloud9: AMEN Dallas  :thumbsup: I'm getting excited with you! We are of a royal priesthood, a king/priest priesthood specifically, as He is king of KINGS. And yes we do have the power to remit sins, as it says whatever sins WE remit they are remitted. But 90% of the church hasn't awakened to who HE is IN THEM yet, so they slumber on, unaware of the power and the authority THAT GOES WITH THE KINGDOM, that resides inside, which are attributes of the KING.

Righteousness, peace and joy are attributes of a NATURE, the nature of the King. He came, He comes, and He continues to come, to rule in and thru a people that are called by His name/nature! Come, Lord, come! Let the eyes of your people be enlightened, as Paul prayed. Blessings....

QuoteThe effect of Jesus is spreading throughout the world. Just as sin entered and has polluted man, even the ones we love we have watched ourselves and them suffer greatly, but now we get to see His effect cause restitution to their beings. The growth of freedom and joy and peace invade mankind, take over this world and establish again, the garden of Eden. This will happen internally, and externally.

Dallas, I am sorry but I don't see the effect of Jesus spreading. All I see is murder, rape, stealing, you name it and it gets worse everyday. Now I hope this changes Lord knows we need the change but it seems to get worse instead of better.


Quote from: Dallas
Not if that weren't enough, because just being healed and set free fom the sin and death in my personal life wasn't enough we are now able to become included into God's life, included into what He does. We will become priests and act as priests...

I thought the Priests were only of Israel. I don't think the title of priest applies to us. Why will there be a need for priests? Their job was to serve in the temple with offerings and sacrificing, which is done away with. Will you explain how this will be possible?

CHB

Hello;

The quicker issue to deal with, the Isreal Priesthood thing. Preists were whom? They where the "ones who do the things of God"

God is still doing "things" and still has His "ways" WE as preists are included into those, for the Isrealite God things were sacrifice, ritual, and worship.... for US it's a totally different ball of yarn!!
Priests of Christ are to be the fullness of His promises, 2 Corinthinas, "For all the promises are yes and amen in Him" We proclaim His finished work and loose the truth on this world...tormenting it with the goodness it is not used to.

Let me look at my notes, I will show you some real cool stuff about who we are as Priests!


As far as the view of the world;

QuoteOur "lens" we look through, tends to define the world we see.

This statement is so very true... just think that once because you saw a God with a hell you saw a bunch of sinners, not that you see God as inclusive you see Him as merciful....

Because I see His work completed, I see the effects...however I also think there is more to it than just chosing it as, that could easily become deliusion. But we can't seperate what we believe with what we see very easily.

That's why we need the foundation to be wrong and let the saftey of Christ allow us to remain righteous while we are yet wrong.

For instance, take a look at the world as a whole, we as a civilization, even on a world basis are more mindful of womens rights and human rights, racial equality, religous acceptance and tollerance. One thing I would also like to pull out is the turning up on sin...the worse things seem is because we are paying more attention to it. The more we are aware is a good thing! The more we will see, the more we will need and the more we will reach out for Him.

Quote from: Doug on January 04, 2010, 09:47:09 PM

It tells "the story of one serious believer's journey into disbelief."

If that's where preterism leads, I'm not really surprised. Jesus said,"by their fruits you will know them."



Doug

Here is a free e book if u have three email referrals, that shows one man's journey into peace, love and joy THROUGH the fulfilled view.   For those interested, it is worth the read imo.

http://thisbookwillchangeyourworld.com/


here is a quote from the author:

"It changed the way I read myself, others, and our world. It
caused me to undergo a personal transformation revealing that
God actively makes all things new. To me, it unveiled nothing
short of a New Heaven and Earth emerging in the midst of our
social worlds."

p.s. if you need a couple of emails to refer, you can use mine,

neral40@yahoo.com
ropefam@yahoo.com

Quote from: jabcat on January 05, 2010, 01:22:46 AM
Good post, and I think your understandings are certainly worth considering.  It's a big discussion, and I admittedly see bits and pieces, and agree with bits and pieces of various POVs, and probably understand even less.  There are "sold-out" believers with one presentation, "sold-out" believers with another.  Things to pray about and look to the Lord for understanding.  As I read your post, I was reminded of the concept of literal and spiritual, and multiple layers to the scriptures.  Thanks  :thumbsup:

Here are some more comments on the book:

Prophecy Fulfilled, Chapter 4, Tentmaker Home Page-
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch4.html

David P. Crews identifies the abomination of the desolation of Matthew 24:15 with the presence of "Roman standards - the flag-like banners" in the Jerusalem temple at the time of its destruction in 70 AD. He wrote:

Jesus was using this imagery as another warning sign for the disciples to watch out for. At the first instance of this activity by the Romans, they were to react. What were the disciples supposed to do? Verse 16 makes it plain -    "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." It was time to run - run for their physical lives! They had to get out of the city of Jerusalem and the political country of Judea if they were to be saved from the Roman invasion and destruction. When they saw the signs, they were to get out fast and not even take time to gather their personal belongings. It should be plain that this has nothing to do with us today.

However, by the time the Roman standards were set up in the temple, the city had fallen, and much of its population, reduced to starvation, had perished, either by famine, or fire, or sword. It would have been too late to flee to the mountains then. And, Jesus also said,

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
   
This saying is also found in Mark 8:35; Luke 9:24, 17:33.

So when Jesus said, "flee into the mountains" he clearly was not referring to people fleeing for their physical lives, as Crews claimed. His warning does not fit the events of 70 AD, as the "sign" of "Roman standards - the flag-like banners" in the Jerusalem temple, that Crews identifies as the abomination of desolation would have appeared too late for anyone to flee.

It is revealing to see just how these prophecies and predictions actually came true during the first part of the war. According to Josephus, the first attack on the city of Jerusalem in A.D. 66, led by the Roman general Cestius Gallus, got the Romans into the city and up to the walls and gate of the Holy Temple itself, which had been commandeered as a fortress by the radical Jews who wanted to fight it out with the Romans. This act of turning the Temple into a military fortress, full of armaments and violence instead of reverence and prayers, was one of the greatest abominations of it. The Romans advanced under their shields to the actual gates of the Temple, which they intended to burn open. Then, something very strange happened. Gallus, at the verge of military success, decided for some unknown reason to retreat - and he took his men out of Jerusalem entirely! As a Jewish historian, Josephus was at a loss to explain this withdrawal by Gallus, whom he stated "retired from the city, without any reason in the world." Importantly, Josephus states that after this event, many people "swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink." We can turn to the history by Eusebius once again to discover what really happened. He wrote: "The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here, those that believed in Christ [had] removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea." The town of Pella was near the Sea of Galilee, but it lay outside of the country of Judea, in the political region called Decapolis. This was out of the path of the invading Romans.

If accurate, the account indicates some escaped to Pella, which is located not in the mountains, but in the Jordan Valley, so it does not fit the prophecy of Jesus, who specified mountains. Crews continues:

Can we explain why the Roman general withdrew so unexpectedly and suddenly from Jerusalem? Josephus actually stated the correct answer earlier in the passage quoted above when he states: "It was, I suppose, owing to the aversion God had already at the city and the sanctuary, that he [Gallus] was hindered from putting an end to the war that very day." Indeed, it was God who was making war on Judea. In Zechariah 14:2, we hear God say:    "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it..."    [NIV] God had brought forth the Romans as his tool of punishment and it was God who arranged that a period of time should be provided, as he had promised, for the escape of the believing Christians. That time was provided, and the Christians did flee!

Zechariah 14:2 does not fit the events of 70 AD, because in Zechariah's prophecy all nations were to come against Jerusalem. In the siege of Jerusalem in the first century, the armies were Roman armies, not those of all nations. And neither was half the city taken, but the entire city was destroyed. And neither did Christ come, and fight against the Romans, and deliver the Jews. Neither did the Mount of Olives cleave in the midst, forming a great valley, through which the people could flee. None of these prophecies of Zechariah fit the events of 70 AD.

Zechariah 14:2-3
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

How could Crews mistake the events Zechariah wrote about, as applying to 70 AD? He must have been blinded by his obsession with the preterist paradigm! Zechariah did not say the nations coming against Jerusalem were a punishment from God. It plainly says God was going to fight against those nations. And Crews must have read this, but apparently, his mind was blinded to what it says.

"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

Is that a description of events in 70 AD? Hardly. Those who say that God gathered "all nations against Jerusalem to battle" in 70 AD are simply deceived! And to claim that God fought against the invaders, but then changed his mind, and decided to annihilate the Jews instead, makes him appear weak, and fickle. And it is blasphemous, IMHO.

No wonder Crews abandoned his faith! No wonder he prefers disbelief, to such an absurd doctrine!

When Jesus said to "flee to the mountains" in Matt. 24:16 and Luke 21:21, he was not referring to literal mountains! Rather, he meant seek God's righteousness, and the  promises of God that the mountains represent. David said, "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains." [Psalm 36:6] The mountains were prominent parts of the promised land, so they represent the promises of God, and all the scriptures. Isaiah said, "And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted." [Isaiah 49:11] The mountains Jesus refers to represent the great promises of God, and they help us find the way, if we keep our objective, and our promised inheritance in mind. In Zechariah's prophecy, the "way" we should flee lies through the valley formed in the midst of the Mount of Olives, when it cleaves in the midst. The two halves of the mountain represent the two popular but flawed interpretations of the Olivet Discourse of Jesus, which is represented by the Mount of Olives.

Doug

Quote from: Dallas on January 05, 2010, 02:09:02 AM

QuoteThe effect of Jesus is spreading throughout the world. Just as sin entered and has polluted man, even the ones we love we have watched ourselves and them suffer greatly, but now we get to see His effect cause restitution to their beings. The growth of freedom and joy and peace invade mankind, take over this world and establish again, the garden of Eden. This will happen internally, and externally.

Dallas, I am sorry but I don't see the effect of Jesus spreading. All I see is murder, rape, stealing, you name it and it gets worse everyday. Now I hope this changes Lord knows we need the change but it seems to get worse instead of better.


Quote from: Dallas
Not if that weren't enough, because just being healed and set free fom the sin and death in my personal life wasn't enough we are now able to become included into God's life, included into what He does. We will become priests and act as priests...

I thought the Priests were only of Israel. I don't think the title of priest applies to us. Why will there be a need for priests? Their job was to serve in the temple with offerings and sacrificing, which is done away with. Will you explain how this will be possible?

CHB

Hello;

The quicker issue to deal with, the Isreal Priesthood thing. Preists were whom? They where the "ones who do the things of God"

God is still doing "things" and still has His "ways" WE as preists are included into those, for the Isrealite God things were sacrifice, ritual, and worship.... for US it's a totally different ball of yarn!!
Priests of Christ are to be the fullness of His promises, 2 Corinthinas, "For all the promises are yes and amen in Him" We proclaim His finished work and loose the truth on this world...tormenting it with the goodness it is not used to.

Let me look at my notes, I will show you some real cool stuff about who we are as Priests!


As far as the view of the world;

QuoteOur "lens" we look through, tends to define the world we see.

This statement is so very true... just think that once because you saw a God with a hell you saw a bunch of sinners, not that you see God as inclusive you see Him as merciful....

Because I see His work completed, I see the effects...however I also think there is more to it than just chosing it as, that could easily become deliusion. But we can't seperate what we believe with what we see very easily.

That's why we need the foundation to be wrong and let the saftey of Christ allow us to remain righteous while we are yet wrong.

For instance, take a look at the world as a whole, we as a civilization, even on a world basis are more mindful of womens rights and human rights, racial equality, religous acceptance and tollerance. One thing I would also like to pull out is the turning up on sin...the worse things seem is because we are paying more attention to it. The more we are aware is a good thing! The more we will see, the more we will need and the more we will reach out for Him.

Hi Dallas,

I guess here is where our minds separate. Am not saying that I can't change my mind on this but at this time I can't see what you are seeing.  As I said before about two years ago I couldn't see that Daniel had been fulfilled, now I see that it has, so be patient with me God isn't finished with me yet.   :happygrin:

From what I see at this time, Christ sacrifice changed the priesthood, there is no need for any priest any more. Even if there was it would only be Israel that this would apply to. There has never been a Gentile priest as far as I know and I don't see that there will be in the future. If you can show me the scriptures on that I would appreciate it.

Another thing I see is that Christ in scripture turns over his ruler ship to the Father (1Cor. 15:28). He will no longer need to be King over anyone. When all is in all Christ will be our brother and we will be sons and daughters of the Father. No need for kings, priests, we will be equal with Christ. (1Cor. 15:25) says "he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet". According to what you have said this has been fulfilled.

How do you explain this away?

CHB

 Mt 12;25 and 24;15  Daniel 26  Every kingdom divided against

itself will be ruined

 so when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation

  Luke 11;17  any kingdom divided against itself shall be ruined

  that is exactly what happened when Jesus came to that temple in Jerusalem...the leaders were making merchandise
sects and divisions were rampant,rebellion...and they received not the true HEIR of the Kingdom..rejected the annointed of the Lord.

 of course they would fall for that[ a house divided against itself can not stand...the abomination of offspring of vipers was in the Lord's temple]

 the parable of the vineyard that was let out....

  Now we see the house of Christianity divided against itself

all the denominations..it also will be unable to stand... also

the abomination of making merchandise and greed of religious rulers..we also see the rejecting of the wisdom of God in favour of itching ears..etc. false prophets,lying doctrines...this is the very circumstances that we have been found in and called out of.

 do you see the nations turning against 'christianity" I do.. Babylon has received judgement of a harlot


it is quickly becoming a 'hate' crime to speak of the judgements of God as to what is righteous

 the falling away of the teachings of Christ has caused the gospel to be spoken of abusively[blasphemy of what is holy ] all the perverted interpretations and acts of lawlessness has caused it to stink...and governments are peering at these 'trouble-makers'

 just as Roman forces were tired of the rebellion etc,too..and the disturbing of their peace and reign

 was the mount of Olives cleaved? yes. there was a division of the promises figuratively..when Jerusalem that was refused their sent Messiah..the house was divided...to those that held the promises[unbeleiving in Christ jews] desolation occurred

their house fell.. unacceptable sacrifice[Uzziah] caused a great splitting[division] fleeing by my mountain valley..was leaving that city Jerusalem..before it's fall...when the division occurred

 [king Uzziah had leprosy until the day he died. He lived in a seperate house]  Leviticus 14;44  if the mildew reappears in the house AFTER the stones have been torn out, and the house scraped and plastered[white-wash] the preist is to go and examine it. And if the mildew has spread in the house, it is
a DESTRUCTIVE mildew;  THE HOUSE IS UNCLEAN IT MUST BE TORN DOWN- IT'S STONES TIMBERS AND ALL IT'S PLASTER

....these are the regulations for infectious skin diseases and mildew[Rev 16;2]

 Now, it is the time of His return...and He has called us out of the leprous house.....He inspects us...Lev 13 Regulations about infectious skin diseases...as our Preist  yes, He inspects us
for spots and blemishes....is it just skin deep[outer court]..or has it entered our heart[holy of holies]

 Cleansing from infectious skin diseases [Leviticus 14]

  John 13;12 When He had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place.'Do you understand what I have done for you? He asked them. You call me
'teacher' and 'Lord', and rightly so, for that is what I AM

 Now that I, your Lord and TEACHER, have washed your feet

 YOU ALSO SHOULD WASH ONE ANOTHERS FEET


 Think about immediately a

fter he did this[washed feet] one

wasn't clean[Judas] evidently the Lord saw a spot on that foot

He washed and realized it was more than skin deep..He then

predicted  'he who shares my bread has lifted up his heel

against me'...I am telling you now, before it happens, so that

when it does happen YOU WILL BELIVE THAT I AM HE


 

 :cloud9: Wow Sheila, that was GOOD...... :thumbsup: Blessings....

the "jews" are on the brink of denying their King again who has shed His blood for mankind...animal sacrifices will commence again on 16 March 2010 after a break of 2000 years...

is this the abomination that causes desolation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7VVcc7uo2U&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7VVcc7uo2U&feature=player_embedded)

Quotethe "jews" are on the brink of denying their King again who has shed His blood for mankind...animal sacrifices will commence again on 16 March 2010 after a break of 2000 years...

-noname

This isn't possible, there is a Muslim mosque sitting on the temple mount, do you suppose in within 1 month they are going to route Islam, storm the gates, retake the site and re-build the temple?

Not possible, and just like the "country of Israel" it will likewise be a counterfiet temple, with counterfiet sacrifices.

This is not the abomination of desolation, unless Jesus was foollish for warning His freinds to watch for it. Why would Jesus tell his friends to watch for it knowing full well they had nothing to fear?

 basically what this 'manifested' plan is showing, is a spirit that

desires a temple built by human hands to resume sacrificies

for righteousness per old law covenant arrangement.


   All the saints need to be on guard for this spirits agenda.

  there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed.


   Be aware of such powers and principalities....there are many

   beware a 'work of human hands to re-establish ritual worship

   and the temple building/ministrys of Judas preists

  for a righteous standing with God' void of the spirit of Christ

and an impossible scenario of itself. The religious sanhedrin

spirit continues it's operation in the  unregenerated earth.

hi! I've come to believe the abomination of desolation of the 'last' days (as opposed to the one in 70a.d. or in Antiochus Epiphany's day) will have to do with depopulation as I believe it to be the 666 apparatus.. This belief is due to Daniel's almost last verses, the ones of Daniel 12;11 & 12 about how from the time the "daily" sacrifice/place of daily thanksgiving and prayer in Jerusalem, is removed/taken away (Mt 24:1&2) to when the abomination of desolation will be set up, shall be three years and six months (all 30 day hebrew  months) and how Daniel wrote "happy is the one who makes it to the three years, six months and 45 days". It just seems to me to be an obvious thing as to what happy event occurs to bring an end to the desolating abomination? (The return of Jesus) And so I figure the desolating apparatus hums for 45 days, with the last "ten days" (rev 2:10) becoming critical when it goes from not being able to buy and sell, to will be killed..