LOF,Second Death and the Unbeliever

[willieH]

willieH: Hi lomarah... :hithere:

:sigh: willie... I just don't know. I can't even keep up with reading your posts let alone replying to them. Basically we disagree on a lot of things and we agree on others. You are welcome to have your opinions on things and I will have mine.

:sigh: lomarah...

I do not write answers to you, for you alone... I write for others to consider OTHER than the TRADITIONAL positions you hold, which are yet found in the view of MANY which have come to KNOW the truth of the Salvation of ALL (UR)... yet still profess in part, "their doings" in part, make it happen... :pitiful:

You are more than welcome to your beliefs.  It is not on my agenda to change you in any way... Stick with what you believe... :nod:  Until GOD brings about a change (if any) to them.  :Sparkletooth:

I spent approximately 24-25 yrs in the Babylon church system... and QUESTIONED them continually, until their "beating around the bush" replies to those questions noted to me that they had no answers to them... and am no longer interested in its supposed "spiritual" beliefs...  :dontknow:

Hopefully you shall remember these WORDS... MANY shall call CHRIST Lord and find rejection from Him -- Matt 7:22-23 -- and MANY shall come in His name FALSELY -- Matt 24:5 --  Full of themselves, not full of Him...  :sigh:

Also know this new sister... as long as I see BABYLON's "TRADITION" presented on the TM forum... it will be objected to, by me...  :thumbsup:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

"THIS LIFE" includes BOTH RESURRECTIONS... The "1st Resurrection" are those who have been given the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST -- John 6:44, within their temporal and physical lifespan.  The "2nd RESURRECTION" is for all OTHERS... which SHALL take place before the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY -- John 12:48

Hi willie,

I think I get what you are saying now, this brain is a little slow sometimes.  :winkgrin:  Thanks much.  :happy3:

CHB

[lomarah]

lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

Thanks jabcat.  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi FOMK...  :laughing7:

Because of the absence of SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY, in your "suggestion"...

I challenge what you say below...  :thumbdown:

The basics of UR is sound knowledge, because it is truth, but as for the rest of working everything out (even things that dont apply to us today) isnt essential.  St Paul said that ALL scipture is God breathed and USEFUL, but he didnt say it was essential

I believe this to be foolish and dangerous counsel...  :sigh:  --- Where does PAUL note or suggest, that ALL Scripture is USEFUL --- but "potentially" NOT ESSENTIAL?   :thumbdown:  It is YOU which ADD (your suggestion) to Paul's words: "but he didn't SAY it was ESSENTIAL"...  :thumbdown:

In answer to "SATAN" --- CHRIST noted the ESSENTIALITY of ALL SCRIPTURE:  

Matt 4:4 -- Luke 4:4 -- Deut 8:3 -- Man shall not live by BREAD ALONE, but by -- EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the MOUTH of GOD

So much for your suggestion...  :thumbdown:

If you have not bothered to name a reference in GOD's WORD, ...then is it not in fact, YOU -- which has decided that Scripture is potentially -- "useful" but not ESSENTIAL?  :JCThink:

Upon what authority OTHER than YOUR OWN, do you base this FOMK?  :dontknow:  I look forward to you naming that "authority"... :declare:

You go on and on about the USELESSNESS of debate, and then subtley "debate" the process of LEARNING, which INCLUDES sharing as well as teaching?  :thumbdown:

Instructing those who would be decieved by YOUR SUGGESTION, to "work things out"?

Here is what CHRIST said -->

John 5:19 & 30  I can, OF Mine OWN SELF, ...DO  ....NOTHING...

So He is herein teaching that HE was NOT "working anything out"... rather, He was DEPENDENT upon the FATHER, through Him and IN HIM, to "WORK it out"...  :dontknow:

And if HE was not about "DOING" (working out) that which was unfolding in HIS MINISTRY -- COMPLETELY dependent upon the FATHER, ...are we to think WE are MORE than HE, by "working things out"?  :mshock:

A hug and pat on the back, and then call this emptiness, sufficient?  :sigh:  IMO -- Your words are VERY misleading...  :sigh:

The biggest problem with your suggestion is certainly not the admonition to LOVE... which IS the ESSENTIAL ingredient... for without LOVE, the Father YHVH is NOT PRESENT, for GOD IS LOVE -- 1 John 4:8

However... your suggestion is to ABANDON the search for TRUTH (which in part is gain in sharing/discussion with others), and instead --- "exchanging" the KNOWLEDGE within the WORD, for the huggy-kissey emptiness which is present in most BELIEVERS within the "CHURCH system of Churchianity"...  :mshock:

And in this UNINFORMED state of "bliss"... think that we have found that which GOD desires of us within our walk?  :dontknow:

While it is quite true that LOVE is where we must found ALL worthwhile and enduring relationships... it is also TRUE that there is FOOLISHNESS within, should we opt to remain UNIFORMED to the dangers of being MISLED by those who, with the deceitful approach of "LOVE", ...can and DO, take the SHEEP to their demise in varying ways...

It has been TRAGICALLY evidenced MANY TIMES, by such ("WOLVES in SHEEPS CLOTHING")  as JIM JONES and DAVID KORESH... whose UNINFORMED and UNQUESTIONING -- SHEEP, swallowed hook, line and sinker, ...the FOOLISHNESS of your suggestion... TAKING that FOOLISHNESS to their DEATHS...  :sigh:

Not to mention the FINANCIAL devastations which occur DAILY within MANY lives, to the ENRICHING of CHARLETONS which, via the GUISE of "LOVE"... line their pockets with the pennies of the POOR...  :sigh:  Lavishing in their deceit... while others scratch to gain a meal, after having given "in LOVE" to these DECIEVERS ...which then without conscience, swim in their pools to the tune of the POVERTY of their sincere yet FOOLISH, ...supporters...

Again... you sound in the quote above, as subtle to me as does MATT SLICK... Go to CARM or read a few threads which note the DECEIT of his teachings here on TENTMAKER...

His teachings, note "ESSENTIAL" Doctrines... without naming any authority which has CATEGORIZED them as "ESSENTIAL", other than himself... (much as YOU do in this thread).

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister CHB... :hithere:

"THIS LIFE" includes BOTH RESURRECTIONS... The "1st Resurrection" are those who have been given the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST -- John 6:44, within their temporal and physical lifespan.  The "2nd RESURRECTION" is for all OTHERS... which SHALL take place before the CONCLUSION of the LAST DAY -- John 12:48

Hi willie,

I think I get what you are saying now, this brain is a little slow sometimes.  :winkgrin:  Thanks much.  :happy3:

CHB

You are more than welcome dear sister...  :cloud9:

And you are hardly "slow of brain" :mnah:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi FOMK... :hithere:

:laugh:  Gimme a break...  :laughing7:

Again im not dissing anyone, far from it, but ive heard all the so called great Bible teachers all my life with their "this means that and that means this" and none of them can come to any agreement.
It does more harm than good, it confuses people.

Hmmm...  :JCThink:  ...and so, we are to just follow your "undissing" suggestion, and jettison all teaching at your "suggestion"?  :dontknow:

Is not your "suggestion", ...a designed and pointed admonition, which, although BRIEF, is in fact -- an "attempt to teach"? :rolleye:

From Merriam-Webster:

ad·mo·ni·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌad-mə-ˈni-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English amonicioun, from Anglo-French amonicion, from Latin admonition-, admonitio, from admonēre
Date: 14th century
1 : gentle or friendly reproof
2 : counsel or warning against fault or oversight

:scratchhead:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

delete

Hmmm... everyone saw this but me, eh?  :sigh:

Did I miss some KIND words fromya Zeek?  :Peace2:

:thinking:  To my recollection, I was not even addressing you in this thread, was I?  :dunno:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

:mnah: ...I kinda really disagree with your comment here, James... so much as calling this "cop-out" ...productive... (not amongst MORE PRODUCTIVE MATTERS)

What would be "productive" -- would be lomarah, taking some time, and answering my questions, as I DID, with hers...  :sigh:

Pretty UNPRODUCTIVE to call abandoning the discussion, and subliminally calling such as, "we disagree, seeya"... as, ...productive... :pitiful:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Enjoy Truth/Lies
The Gift of Salvation !   NO POOF

      Discover for yourself what Scriptures actually teach about the work of Christ.  There is one thing most hold in common: the confidence that man can use his own " Positive Volition" or "Free Will" to accept Christ and get himself "saved" .
   More than a century ago a great man of God, A. P. Adams, penned the following: "I wish to add a word further in regard to the Salvation of ALL men, suggested by the following extract which I clipped from one of my exchanges.  The extract is as follows: The Rev. B.W. Ward, the popular Boston evangelist, and efficient superintendent of the Bleeker St. Mission.  Thus beautifully illustrates the Gift of Salvation: A friend of mine invited me into a jewelry store and asked the clerk for samples of their pocket knives. Placing the price of he best one  alongside of it, on the counter, he said, Ward, I want to make you a little present. There's a knife and there is the price of it, make your choice. Take which one you will as a momento from me.  ( Just like mike saying with a dollar bill in hand, just reach out and take it.) Now, said the evangelist, whose knife was that while it lay there on the counter? It wasn't mine. It would become mind by my deciding to accept it; but without such an act on my part it was not for me. So of salvation. Jesus has paid the price, but the sinner must decide whether or not he will reach forth and take it before it becomes his.  ( Now is this what Your Religion Teaches ?)

   In this extract it will be seen that the salvation of the individual is made to depend upon his own decision. THE SINNER MUST DECIDE, and as he decides so will his future destiny be to all eternity.  Thus ONE'S salvation is practically made to depend on one's self.  God and Christ have done or are doing their part and now they simply wait for the sinner's decision.  By the way, how long did God wait for the ' decision ' of Saul of Tarsus when [ it pleased God to call him ?]

Most people, however, would accept the above extract as a correct presentation of the case, and would assent thereto without any hesitation. But there is a fatal defect in the illustration. The case of the one choosing the knife or {Michael's and Dave's story of the dollar bill } is NOT PARALLEL TO THAT OF THE SINNER CHOOSING SALVATION, because the former has his EYES WIDE OPEN  and knows full well the value of what is presented to him for his choice, while the LATTER IS BLINDED, and knoweth not what he does, 'but if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost; in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ ...should shine unto them (II Cor. 4: 3-4 ).
" The bible plainly teaches that fallen man is blinded to the truth; the soulical man receives not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned, and the soulical man has not the spirit.
This the sinner does not realize and appreciate the value of the salvation that is offered to him.  In the first place, he does not know that he is lost, and hence feels no need of salvation.  Secondly, this sinner does not know that the salvation offered him in Christ is worth anything.  All he has to go by in determining its worth is the lives of those who profess to possess it, and they for the most part, are very deficient illustrations of its merit.

           Furthermore the sinner is surrounded by circumstances entirely adverse to his acceptance of Christ. And finally, worse than all, 'the mind of the flesh' a corrupt nature, an 'evil heart of unbelief,' a body of death,' that leans toward the BAD and opposes the good continually: and mark you, all these things are circumstances over which the individual has NO control and for which he is NOT to blame.  "Again, mark you, that if he overcomes these unfavorable circumstances and in spite of them does accept Christ, it must be by some power OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF, for in himself he would never have any power for his own deliverance.  This is the teaching of the 7th chapter of Romans.  God must deliver him if he is delivered at ALL he must bring him to the knowledge of his lost condition, so that he will feel his need of a Saviour, and he must give him repentance and faith. God must open his eyes so that he shall not only see the need, but also the priceless value of salvation, that like the apostle Paul, he will be willing to count all things but dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus his Lord. 
   " And he must be endowed with power to overcome the evil around and within him.  ALL this help must come from God, and must be imparted to the sinner before he can make the slightest movement toward salvation.  Are there any such elements as these in the case of the man choosing the knife?  Is it not plain that that illustration and the case of the sinner are NOT PARALLEL at all?  And yet just such illustrations are constantly presented as setting forth exactly the case of the sinner in "his" choice or rejection of salvation in Christ!  The fact is there are many factors to be taken into account in the regeneration and new creation of a human being.  It is not such a small matter as picking up a little present that a friend passes over to you. Hence these illustrations are very faulty and misleading " -----------end quote.
   When addressing the unsaved, an evangelist often drew an analogy between Gods sending the gospel to the sinner, and a sick man in bed, with some healing medicine on a table by his side; all he needs to do is reach forth his hand and take it,  ( like Michael's or Dave's dollar bill story )
But in order for this illustration to be in any wise true to the picture which scriptures gives us of the fallen and deprived sinner, the sick man in bed must be described as one who is Blind(Eph. 4:18),so that he can not see the medicine, his hand paralyzed(Rom.5:6) so that he is unable to reach forth for it, and his heart not only devoid of all confidence in the medicine but filled with hatred against the physician himself (Jn. 15:18 ).  Oh, what superficial views of man's desperate plight are not entertained!

Christ come here NOT to help those who were willing to help themselves, or even those willing to be helped, but to do for people what they were incapable of doing for them selves: "to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house". (Isa. 42:7)
   Some one will ask, "will God save men eventually against their will?"  The answer is NO !  He will have no need to do that, for ALL men will be 100% willing when God reveals Himself to them.  Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened.  We have only to consider the case of Saul of Tarsus to understand the miraculous power of the Lord to change the leopard's spots and melt the heart of stone. {new-cov.Jer 31:31 or Ez.36:26-27 ).  There are those who suppose that God could not convert a soul unless that depraved and lost soul gives to almighty God that permission. ( NOT ). I only wish they would ask the Apostle Paul, that Great despiser of Christ and hater of His church, that persecutor of Christians, who while on his way to Damascus was suddenly cast to the ground and converted (turned ).  No man was ever more hateful toward Christ than was Saul of Tarsus, yet, when his turn came (to see the light), he changed in an instant, crying out in fear and trembling and with bitter repentance, "Who art thou, Lord? " and "What will thou have me do ?" Did God ask Saul of Tarsus whether or not he wanted to be saved ?, or did He say to Ananias, "He is a chosen vessel unto me to bear My name before the gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel"  (Acts 9:15 )

It is only God who can change the human heart, and when God wills to change every single human heart in earth and in hell, each will be changed in an INSTANT (Twinkle ).
Jer,31:31-34 Plus Ez.36:26-27
   
   

Behold, the days come, saith the lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their "hearts"; and will be their God, and they shall be my people, 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, Saying, know the Lord: for they shall ALL know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their inquity, and I will remember their sin ( singular ) no more.
EZ. 36: 26-27 says, A new heart also will I give you, and 'ALL'. a new spirit will I put WITHIN YOU: and  I will take away the stony heart out of you 'flesh' and I will give you a heart of flesh.  And I will put my spirit WITHIN you, and CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, and ye shall keep my judgments, and DO THEM...29 And I will save you from ALL  your uncleannesses, ( Sin ). Can you understand ALL This....?
   Taken from the book "Saviour of the world series" By J. Preston Eby  Just What Do You Mean " Man is a Free Moral Agent!   Typed by Lee Damboise II

[jabcat]

lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

:mnah: ...I kinda really disagree with your comment here, James... so much as calling this "cop-out" ...productive... (not amongst MORE PRODUCTIVE MATTERS)

What would be "productive" -- would be lomarah, taking some time, and answering my questions, as I DID, with hers...  :sigh:

Pretty UNPRODUCTIVE to call abandoning the discussion, and subliminally calling such as, "we disagree, seeya"... as, ...productive... :pitiful:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I can enjoy discussing, but I don't enjoy endless, unproductive arguing with people - especially if any specific individual only appears open to what they already believe.  I'll discuss things if I so choose and feel led, otherwise, I don't waste my time or energy, and as I said to lomorah, I personally don't recommend it to others either.  

[willieH]

I can enjoy discussing, but I don't enjoy endless, unproductive arguing with people - especially if any specific individual only appears open to what they already believe.  I'll discuss things if I so choose and feel led, otherwise, I don't waste my time or energy, and as I said to lomorah, I personally don't recommend it to others either.  

That's fine... you are welcome to your personal observations, bro... As I see it, ANY discussion into which I enter, I shall potentially LEARN something that I did not know prior to IT, and OFTENTIMES do... :nod:

You are welcome to think it is a WASTE of TIME and energy, as DOES lomarah... I believe discussion (which is an interaction of sometimes, conflicting ideas), is a GREAT foundational LEARNING tool.

The example of this is found throughout the ministry of CHRIST... Many times the "teachers" proposed things TO HIM... and His answers were found IN CONFLICT to their "beliefs"...  :dontknow:

Irregardless of your opinion (as suggested subliminally ---> "especially any individual only appears OPEN to what they already believe") ...I am every bit as "open" as you or lomarah might  consider yourselves...  :happygrin:

I am just a bit more confident and grounded within the proximity of my journey (not that you are not grounded), then either of you...  There are many things that you both note to be UNSURE of... :dunno:

I often make the recommendation, that ANYONE reading my words, RESEARCH them -- COMPARE them to REASON -- COMPARE them to the SCRIPTURES... as well as noting that it is NOT my "agenda" to change anyone, nor do I EVER insist they BELIEVE as do I... :mnah:

Many are intimidated by the detail and confidence that I am able to project... and when their "opinions" are challenged by me, instead of responding to those challenges, they make excuses or just resort to "running out the back door"... without answering the questions that challenge their position... Pretty typical...

I have no problem with that.  My words are for those whom GOD intends to hear them, according to their place within His PURPOSE...  You are welcome to reject them ALL, makes no difference to me...

In any event, one way or the other, ...I consider you my brother in the mean time... and mean no harm to you whatsoever... even though within a decision that causes you to (inconfidently) retreat from my questions, ...you might percieve such...  :friendstu: :declare:

:Peace: be unto you...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

Thanks jabcat.  :cloud9:

You're welcome.  Not to derail the LOF thread, it probably needs to get back on track, but I've been identifying with some of your posts regarding Christmas.  You and your family have a great day, whatever you call it (or don't  :laughing7:).   James. 

[lomarah]

lomarah, good decision  :thumbsup:.  Glad to see you moving on to more productive matters.

God's blessings to you.

Thanks jabcat.  :cloud9:

You're welcome.  Not to derail the LOF thread, it probably needs to get back on track, but I've been identifying with some of your posts regarding Christmas.  You and your family have a great day, whatever you call it (or don't  :laughing7:).   James. 

:cloud9: Thanks James, we had a lovely day and I hope yours was just as great.   :dsunny:

[jabcat]

I survived going to the inlaws another year, thanks!  That's actually been a bit of a Lake of Fire experience for me through the years...you know, bad attitudes, needing to be more loving and all that.   :mblush:  God is good.

[lomarah]

I survived going to the inlaws another year, thanks!  That's actually been a bit of a Lake of Fire experience for me through the years...you know, bad attitudes, needing to be more loving and all that.   :mblush:  God is good.

Haha James! Right now we're living with my in-laws. Thankfully I was blessed with a great mother in law, she is one of the sweetest women I know! (A lot of people envy me for that lol) Of course, that doesn't mean that we haven't had some fire too (on both sides... i'm sure living with us isn't a piece of cake 24/7 lol). What I LOVE about my fairly new UR beliefs is that when I am extremely annoyed with someone I just remind myself that they are my true brother/sister and that when they are acting miserable toward others it's because they feel miserable inside and then instead of feeling annoyed or angry I begin to feel empathy and love for them.  :cloud9: (Of course it's a work in progress...  :winkgrin:)
Glad to hear you survived another year, all the best to you!

[peacemaker]

His anger (indignation or displeasure) is but for a moment (the wages of sin), His favor (goodwill) is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning ... (Psalm 30:5)

For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison ... (2 Corinthians 4:17)

But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation ... (1 Peter 4:13)

He was buried, and He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures ... (1 Corinthians 15:4)

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection ... (Romans 6:5)

I consider that the sufferings of this present time, are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us ... (Romans 8:18)

Always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body ... (2 Corinthians 4:10)

That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death ... (Philippians 3:10)

He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, that we may live before Him . (Hosea 6:2) In His Presence!

"Let us not satisfy ourselves with a knowledge that is spiritually ignorant and lacking power; for the Death of Death is in the Death of Christ."

This is the time for PURGING, CLEANSING AND PURIFYING. It is the realm of qualifying for, and the preparation of; SONSHIP, after the order of Melchizedek. Thus, Come Lord Jesus! NOW is the time for the REFINER'S FIRE and FULLERS' SOAP.

However, if you desire to wait for judgment (Death; not knowing the day, or hour) and the Resurrection from the Grave, rest assured that He is still the Fullers' soap and the Refiner of the Soul, who will wash you clean – for that which is filthy and impure cannot enter.

I believe without any imputation of uncharitableness that every person will be awakened under the countenance of the Spirit, and will fall upon their knees in due season; each in their own era.

peacemaker

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PM...  :cloud9:

His anger (indignation or displeasure) is but for a moment (the wages of sin), His favor (goodwill) is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning ... (Psalm 30:5)

For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison ... (2 Corinthians 4:17)

But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation ... (1 Peter 4:13)

He was buried, and He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures ... (1 Corinthians 15:4)

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection ... (Romans 6:5)

I consider that the sufferings of this present time, are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us ... (Romans 8:18)

Always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body ... (2 Corinthians 4:10)

That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death ... (Philippians 3:10)

He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, that we may live before Him . (Hosea 6:2) In His Presence!

"Let us not satisfy ourselves with a knowledge that is spiritually ignorant and lacking power; for the Death of Death is in the Death of Christ."

This is the time for PURGING, CLEANSING AND PURIFYING. It is the realm of qualifying for, and the preparation of; SONSHIP, after the order of Melchizedek. Thus, Come Lord Jesus! NOW is the time for the REFINER'S FIRE and FULLERS' SOAP.

However, if you desire to wait for judgment (Death; not knowing the day, or hour) and the Resurrection from the Grave, rest assured that He is still the Fullers' soap and the Refiner of the Soul, who will wash you clean – for that which is filthy and impure cannot enter.

I believe without any imputation of uncharitableness that every person will be awakened under the countenance of the Spirit, and will fall upon their knees in due season; each in their own era.

peacemaker

Very good points!   I commend you for your use of SCRIPTURE...  :happyclap:  

So many ...seek to found their ideas or observations by their own words and therein avoiding the use of it... but how can TRUTH be established WITHOUT IT?  For the WORD ...IS... TRUTH! -- John 14:6

This is the realm of sorrow... where men are seen in transgression of the COMMAND of God... not the realm from which WE EMERGED, and to which WE SHALL RETURN -- Luke 15:1-32 --- Most fail to see the TRUTH that -- [AT FIRST] -- the "LOST" SHEEP was NOT LOST (for it was originally numbered amongst the "100"), then became LOST, then became  FOUND BY the SHEPHERD (no longer lost -- and was NOT FOUND of the SHEEP's "doing") -- same with the "LOST COIN", same with the "LOST SON"... and NONE of these were "tormented" upon being FOUND (restored to the OWNER OF THEM)... rather the COMPLETE OPPOSITE occurs --- a CELEBRATION!  :boogie:

It is within the state of BEING "LOST", that "torment" exists...  :dontknow:

We are "owned" by GOD... and He seeks to regain, that which is BECOME LOST -- Luke 19:10

1 Cor 6:19-20 -- ye are NOT your own -- for ye are BOUGHT with a PRICE...

1 Cor 7:23 -- ye are BOUGHT with a PRICE...

...willieH  :HeartThrob: