When was Jesus really born

[Livelystone]

To the pure all things are pure becuase they have a mind like Christ, they dont think of or want un-pure things. I hope to be there one day... so for now I am trying to rid myself of all impurity with the help of the HS.

Amen  :thumbsup:

To the pure all things are pure means that even when you walk into a Church of today and hear what is preached or read a study Bible that is as far off from the truth as Christmas is .............. is that you still know the truth and no matter the lies being spoken of the subject at hand you still see the truth of the subject at hand......... please take this to heart :HeartThrob:

Dear Brothers and Sisters ....... we are not called to offer the lame for the praise of our lips........ we are called to offer the praise of our lips that is created in us by Him and that means to worship in Spirit (His) AND IN TRUTH !!!!!!!!!!

[jabcat]

3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

--Rom 14

Hey Molly, don't steal my scripture!!!  :happygrin:

On second thought, oh, OK, you can use it.

[jabcat]

Well I just know that since I found out about all the pagan roots of christmas I am seriously considering not being a part of it. Thats how I feel I dont expect anyone else to think the same way I do. I've just been giving my opinion, not judging others. Ironically if anyone thinks I have been judging, your judging me  :happy3: Only messin y'all.

:girlheart:

I understand.  I don't actually outright "celebrate Christmas" on the 25th, but I do spend time with my family, even exchange gifts...I don't participate in decorating the tree (though I'm present with the family, playing the piano while they decorate, talking to them) or make a big deal about the date, etc.  I just try to strike a balance between being true to what my conscience tells me about what God wants for me, while trying to keep a peaceful, non-burdensome situation with my family.  It seems to work OK, but I'm still walking it out, learning.  I remember the scripture about "don't be over-much righteous"...if I sat around grousing, complaining, saying you shouldn't do this, shouldn't do that, then I don't see how that's really helping or being a good witness (never mind being somebody my own family wants to be around  :bigGrin:).  Step by step....

[Livelystone]

I copied the following off of  asecular site dealing with the same question

Anyone here have the answer to this ????????

WW...... you are the one for research. Be interesting to hear what you come up with

Blessings

Doug

You want to figure out the birth date of Jesus? How about starting with the year? According to Luke, Joseph and Mary were traveling to Bethlehem to participate in the census that Cesar Augustus ordered. This census of Judea is a well-recorded historical fact, the Census of Quirinius, and it took place in A.D. 6 and 7.

However, Matthew states that after Jesus was born, the Magi visited Mary and Joseph and warned them that King Herod the Great was planning to kill Jesus. So Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt with Jesus, only returning to Judea after King Herod died. And there were several Jewish kings named "Herod" at this time, but we know specifically that Herod the Great was the one who ordered that Jesus be killed, because Matthew 2:22 specifically states that "Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod" (KJV). Jospeh feared that Archelaus would be as cruel as his father had been, so after their return from Egypt, he settled the family in Nazareth in the territory of Galilee, which was ruled by Antipas, Archelaus' brother.

Now, here's the problem. Herod the Great died in 4 BC, a full 10 years before Augustus decreed his census on Judea. In fact, Archelaus was not even the ruler of Judea when the census was decreed. The entire reason that Augustus ordered a census of Judea is because he removed Archelaus as ruler and put Judea under direct Roman rule.

So Matthew says that Jesus must have been born no later than 4 BC, because Herod was still alive when He was born.

But Luke says that Jesus must have been born on or after A.D. 6, a full 9 or 10 years after the death of Herod, because Mary was still pregnant with Jesus when they traveled to Bethlehem to participate in the census.

So, which book is wrong, Luke's or Matthew's?

[WhiteWings]

Both books a right....

http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/con100.asp
Sensus can also mean taxation (for the military)

[jabcat]

I agree WW.  This from your link helps - good find;

Indeed, it seems that Caesar Augustus was the type of leader who ordered many censuses in his day. Augustus himself notes in his Res Gestae (The Deeds of Augustus) that he ordered three wide-spread censuses of Roman citizens, one in 28B.C., one in 8 B.C. and one in 14 A.D.2 In between there are several other censuses that happened locally across Rome. Luke's account corroborates the idea of multiple censuses for Judea when he writes "This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria." Certainly, the word "first" implies that where was more than one census happened.

The only point that is really in question, then, is whether Luke was mistaken in ascribing this census to the time when Quirinius was in the role of Syrian Governor.
Justin Martyr's Apology .....writing that Quirinius was a "procurator", not a governor of the area of Judea.6 As Gleason Archer writes, "In order to secure efficiency and dispatch, it may well have been that Augustus put Quirinius in charge of the census-enrollment in Syria between the close of Saturninus's administration and the beginning of Varus's term of service in 7 B.C. It was doubtless because of his competent handling of the 7 B.C. census that Augustus later put him in charge of the 7 A.D. census."7 If Quirinius did hold such a position, then we have no contradiction. The first census was taken during the time of Jesus birth, but Josephus' census would have come later.

[WhiteWings]

Animation of what was possibly the star of Bethlehem
http://mayimhayim.org/Academic%20Stuff/The%20Debate%20of%20Timing.htm

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/herod/herod.html
2.3 Empire-wide Registration
Until recently, no empire-wide enrollment (Luke 2:1) was known that would have been required of Joseph and Mary; the commonly cited taxation of 8 B.C. applied only to Roman citizens. Now Martin has identified it as a combined census and oath of allegiance to Augustus in 3-2 B.C., perhaps related to the bestowal of the title "pater patriae" (father of thy country) by the senate on Feb. 5, 2 B.C.[10] Josephus records that over 6,000 Pharisees refused to pledge their good will to Caesar (about a year or so before Herod died),[11] probably referring to that oath because the census would have recorded how many refused. Orosius (a fifth century historian) clearly links an oath to the registration at the birth of Christ:


"[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. So at that time, Christ was born and was entered on the Roman census list as soon as he was born. This is the earliest and most famous public acknowledgment which marked Caesar as the first of all men and the Romans as lords of the world ... that first and greatest census was taken, since in this one name of Caesar all the peoples of the great nations took oath, and at the same time, through the participation in the census, were made part of one society."[12]

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Jesus was born on April 15th at 1am 1987A.D.

IMO

[jabcat]

OK Lee, I'll bite.  IN YOU, right?   :Sparkletooth:

[CHB]

Here are some articles on the birth of Jesus. Dr. Martin thinks Jesus was born in Sept. 2 or 3 BC. He uses the star and astronomy, taxation, time of John's birth and other things to prove this. I don't know if he has the right date right or not but it sure is worth reading.

http://www.askelm.com/star/index.asp

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Thanks, I'm going to read it tommorow. (bedtime now)
But I had to peek before going to bed.

What New Moon could this have been? The answer is most amazing. It is almost too amazing! September 11, 3 B.C.E. was Tishri One on the Jewish calendar. To Jewish people this would have been a very profound occasion indeed. Tishri One is none other than the Jewish New Year's day

I'm pretty sure Jewish new year starts in spring (Nisan/Abib/First Fruits) at that time. Much later ,133AD I think, that date was changed.
AFAIK currently the Jews have a secular and a religious new year.

Other "star dates" are 7BC, September 5 BC, September 3 BC

Gonna read it all in 6 hours.
Nite.

[Molly]

A Candle in the Darkness

As people across the world tonight light Christmas candles at Christmas Eve services, my mind goes back to another Christmas 20 years ago in Romania, when the country was still in the grip of communist tyranny.

The story begins with Laszlo Tokes, pastor of a fast-growing reformed church in the city of Timisoara. His powerful preaching had caught the attention of communist officials, and they began a strategy of suppression. They stationed police officers around his church, machine guns cradled in their arms. They hired thugs to attack him. Finally, just before Christmas, they decided to send him into exile.

But when the police arrived to hustle Pastor Tokes away, they were stopped cold. Around the church stood a wall of humanity. Christians from around the city—Baptist, Pentecostal, Orthodox, Catholic—had joined together to protest.

All through the day they held their post. As it grew dark, a young Baptist student named Daniel Gavra pulled out a packet of candles, lit one, and passed it to his neighbor.

Then he lit another. One by one the burning candles were passed out among the crowd. Soon the darkness of the December night was pierced by the light of hundreds of candles. When Pastor Tokes looked out his window, he saw a sea of faces lit up by a warm glow.

That night, he said later, was the "turning point in my life." He would never erase from his mind the picture of believers from all denominations joining hands in his defense.

Two days later, police finally broke through the crowd and dragged Pastor Tokes away. But that was not the end. The people now streamed to the city square and began a full-scale demonstration against the communist government.

Once again Daniel Gavra passed out his candles. Once again the night was lit by their glow.

Finally, the communist officials began to panic. They brought in troops and ordered them to open fire on the crowd. Hundreds were shot. Young Daniel felt a searing pain as his leg was blown off.



Yet the brave example set in Timisoara inspired the rest of the nation. Within days the entire population of Romania had risen up and the bloody dictator Ceausescu was gone. The churches filled with worshippers offering praise to God.

For the first time in half a century, the people of Romania celebrated Christmas in freedom.

In the hospital, Daniel Gavra celebrated while learning to walk with crutches. His pastor came by, offering him sympathy, but Daniel wasn't looking for sympathy.

"Oh, Pastor," he said softly. "I don't mind so much the loss of a leg. After all, it was I who lit the first candle."

What a powerful image for us here in America as we celebrate this Christmas—the picture of a black December night lit up by a glowing testimony to the unity of God's people.

What mighty things the church could do today when it truly is the church: when we stand shoulder to shoulder with all our brothers and sisters, ready to fight evil, prepared to give our limbs—and yes, even our lives—to light a candle in the darkness.

http://www.breakpoint.org/commentaries/13937-a-candle-in-the-darkness

[WhiteWings]

I copied the following off of  asecular site dealing with the same question

Anyone here have the answer to this ????????

WW...... you are the one for research. Be interesting to hear what you come up with
......
But Luke says that Jesus must have been born on or after A.D. 6, a full 9 or 10 years after the death of Herod, because Mary was still pregnant with Jesus when they traveled to Bethlehem to participate in the census.

So, which book is wrong, Luke's or Matthew's?[/i]

From the link of CHB. (Yes CHB I'm really reading it but I have much to verify before I can agree/disagree :happy3:)

Another important matter occurred in 2 B.C.E. Augustus was given his most prestigious title: Pater Patriae (Father of the Country). In the previous year a decree went out from Augustus that required "the entire Roman people" scattered over the Empire to register their approval that Augustus should be given the most prestigious title of his career, the Pater Patriae. 12 This registration of people in all areas of the Empire was an oath in which individuals proclaimed the emperor Augustus as the "Father of the Country." This oath took place in the summer of 3 B.C.E. and it was required of all Roman citizens and others of distinguished rank among the client kingdoms associated with Rome. 13 This universal census of allegiance to Augustus was demanded of those who claimed any kind of authority within the Empire. The whole of the Roman Empire responded, and Augustus was gloriously proclaimed the Pater Patriae (the Father of the Country).
.............
We now know that an Empire-wide citizen registration took place for the award of the Pater Patriae upon Augustus in early 2 B.C.E. 3 This was the census Luke meant.

I highlighed a part in blue.
Usually Jesus (and His earthly father) are said to be simple carpenters.
But the current day scholars seem to agree that's not true.
There is some slight disagreement what the word Tekton excatly meant.
Some views are quoted below annother view is that  it means someone that make constructions of wood. A simple bookshelf could be called a construction but a house or bridge are constructions too. Likely they where the ones in charge. Architect/engineer ???
I think that also gives some understanding why Jesus knew so much about the Scriptures.
He could read and had access to books. Very uncommon to poor families I think...?

The common conception of Joseph is that he was a carpenter (Matthew 13:55), however, this is a mis-translation of the Greek word, tecton (tekton), which more accurately should be called "general contractor", or more provocatively, "Master of the Craft" (Gardner, 2001). In fact, the Protoevangelium of James, [1] which concerns the lives of Jesus' parents, specifically identifies Joseph as a general contractor.  The Blueletter Bible offers various translations of tekton -  (1) a worker in wood, a carpenter, joiner, builder, (2) any craftsman, or workman (e.g.,  the art of poetry, maker of songs), and (3)  a planner, contriver, plotter, or (4) an author.

When one looks at the parables which Jesus told, they were often about constructing a building, rather than making an object. This indicates that his experiences along these lines were more architectural (ie., builder) rather than artisan (maker).

Even more challenging is the concept that tecton/tekton is best translated as scholar, since the original Aramaic word is naggar, which translates as craftsman or scholar (Wilson, 1992, p. 893). Indeed several notable authors (e.g., Thiering, 1992; Wilson, 1992; Vermes,1973)  believe that Joseph is best understood as a scholar, and it's as the son of a scholar that Jesus is more readily understood, rather than the son of a carpenter. Certainly this image of the scholar is more consistent with Luke's (2:46-47) tale of the 12-year old Jesus in the Temple, where "...all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers."

[Beloved Servant]

:cloud9: And.......wise men still seek Him.......  :icon_king:

13 And suddenly with the messenger there came to be a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and saying,
14 "Glory to God among the Highest! And on earth peace, Among men, delight!"

[HartleyDamboiseII]

OK Lee, I'll bite.  IN YOU, right?   :Sparkletooth:

Yes of course, IN Me.

[Beloved Servant]

Everyday is "Christmas " as the Spirit increases.
What the Lord desires is "Easter" among His Sons!