Most know that not only is Christmas day not the date of the birth of Jesus but is also the date of a pagan holiday........ same goes for Easter
No wonder the glory of God is very rarely seen within the church in this country.
However amongst new believers in countries where the Good News is just being introduced He still appears in His Majesty doing signs and wonders not unlike what the New Testament church did after the ascension of Jesus Christ to the right hand of the Father.
Here is as good a link as any to the real birth date of Jesus.
http://www.herealittletherealittle.n...Jesus-Birthday
Doug
Well, yes, we know this--but it's not really clear exactly when Jesus was born, and I cherish the fact that we get to celebrate his birth once a year together, no matter that the day is arbitrary--thereby proving that God turns all things to the good.
[PS your link doesn't work]
Some say these wise men are the descendants of those taught by Daniel 400 years before the birth of Christ to look for the signs of the Messiah in the heavens.
1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
7Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
9When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
12And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
13And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
14When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
--Matthew 2
:cloud9: And.......wise men still seek Him....... :icon_king:
I think it was April 15th
Sorry about the link not being pasted in right....... this one should work or at least it does when I preview my post.
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Jesus-Birthday
I really dont understand why we celebrate His birth as the only birthdays celebrated in the bible are Pharoe, Jobs children and Herod's, all lead to death!
Also why clebrate Christs birth on a pagan holiday, with all the pagan trimings, tree, santa(molech), yule log?? When you look into it Christmas couldn't be more pagan.
Put 'pagan christmas' into google or youtube and you'll find a wealth of info. We are told specifically not to mix our worship of God with paganism, thats what kept getting Isreal in trouble and look at the state so called 'Christendom' is in now!
Lord purge Your church of all paganism!
St Nicholas, Bishop of Myra and Saint of Bari
The Story of St Nicholas
Saint Nicholas was born in 260AD in Patara, a coastal town in what is now Turkey. The poor knew him throughout the land for his generosity, his love for children and being associated with ships, the sea and sailors. He was eventually consecrated Bishop of Myra, just miles from his hometown.
Our western tradition of Santa Claus and Father Christmas originates with the beloved saint. Many Christian churches and many countries observe December 6th, his feast day, with great celebrations, processions, services and gift giving.
Many legends surround his life. During the reign of the Roman emperor Diocletian, Bishop Nicholas was imprisoned and tortured for his beliefs but he never forsook his faith. The new Emperor Constantine eventually released him. Tradition has it that Bishop Nicholas attended the Council of Nicaea in 325 with many other bishops, a meeting that produced what we today call "The Nicene Creed".
Saint Nicholas of Myra (ca. 280 - 341)
In the Eastern Church, St. Nicholas is considered the canon - the "measuring stick" - for bishops. He is not remembered because he was an exceptional administrator, but because he made the Christian faith believable for people of his time by living it himself radically and profoundly. Legends surround his life, all pointing to his love for others, especially for the poor and afflicted.
The Church realizes her essence whenever she stands with the poor, for that is where she finds her Spouse, Jesus Christ. This has been obscured by the power and royal trappings of Christendom. In our day, however, bishops themselves are redefining their lives, much the way St. Nicholas might have done in the ancient Church. "We bishops pledge to make clear through our lives and our attitudes that our preference is to evangelize and serve the poor." (Puebla, 1979)
http://www.stnicholassociety.com/History/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjgoFziTRZw
Christmas is pagan
Yikes. None of that sounds good, Nat. But, fear not, --
Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpgaWm2pnNs
Quote from: natcat86 on December 24, 2009, 09:34:33 PMLord purge Your church of all paganism!
That would be a very empty church. Very empty...
Quote from: natcat86 on December 24, 2009, 10:05:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjgoFziTRZw
Christmas is pagan
No more than new years eve or easter to name just two.
PRAY, SAINTS!
Most of the "Christmas" things aside, these folks need our prayers.
"The deadly Christmas Eve ambush of a Christian bus driver in Iraq Thursday and a bombing earlier this week targeting a 1,200-year-old church are driving Iraq's few remaining Christians quietly underground in the hours before the holy day begins."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581107,00.html
Definitely praying!
Quote from: jabcat on December 24, 2009, 11:10:46 PM
PRAY, SAINTS!
Most of the "Christmas" things aside, these folks need our prayers.
"The deadly Christmas Eve ambush of a Christian bus driver in Iraq Thursday and a bombing earlier this week targeting a 1,200-year-old church are driving Iraq's few remaining Christians quietly underground in the hours before the holy day begins."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581107,00.html
:cloud9: Definitely. Please keep the Pakistani Christians lifted up as well. I've talked to 2 Pakistani ministers lately and they are literally being killed and their homes and churches burned by 100,000 plus mobs over there. Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 24, 2009, 11:09:15 PM
Quote from: natcat86 on December 24, 2009, 09:34:33 PMLord purge Your church of all paganism!
That would be a very empty church. Very empty...
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 24, 2009, 11:10:26 PM
Quote from: natcat86 on December 24, 2009, 10:05:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjgoFziTRZw
Christmas is pagan
No more than new years eve or easter no name just two.
Father is pretty clear, he hates paganism. We are lucky because He is so gracious we dont have to suffer the same fate as the Isralites who allowed paganism to creep into their worship. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt Him as much. By tolerating or participating in Paganism we rob God of what is rightfully His. Christmas, New Year, Easter, its all just taking focus off God just enough that it isn't real worship of Him but in a way that we dont even realise. Christians defending Christmas, would you pray in a Budhist temple if they changed the symbols just enough to look like crosses?
The enemy is subtle, as Bob Dylan sang.
Quote from: jabcat on December 24, 2009, 11:10:46 PM
PRAY, SAINTS!
Most of the "Christmas" things aside, these folks need our prayers.
"The deadly Christmas Eve ambush of a Christian bus driver in Iraq Thursday and a bombing earlier this week targeting a 1,200-year-old church are driving Iraq's few remaining Christians quietly underground in the hours before the holy day begins."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581107,00.html
Praying I cant imagine the persecution some people are facing, it doesn't seem real somehow in my cosy corner of the world. I'm just so thankful that we can trust Father with every circumstance, that He is working everything for the good. :Pray:
Quote from: natcat86 on December 25, 2009, 12:45:49 AMFather is pretty clear, he hates paganism.
..... would you pray in a Budhist temple if they changed the symbols just enough to look like crosses?
Sun worshipping religions all have a cross as their symbol.
It symbolizes a certain setting of planets when the sun gets reborn. (days get longer)
The cross predates Christianity by a very long time.
It was just an example, a poor one really as the cross is just as much paganised as anything. Constantine thought it would make a powerful symbol for the Roman sheilds.
BUT anyway sorry all for being :offtopic:
I heard the other day that it must have been around September time that Jesus was born because there were still Shephards in the feilds. Also Bethlehem was where they raised all the lambs that were to be sacrficed at the Temple. Didnt know that. Amazing detail, the birth place of the Lamb of God! :cloud9:
Quote from: Molly on December 24, 2009, 10:29:56 PM
Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
Exactly.
To the pure all things are pure becuase they have a mind like Christ, they dont think of or want un-pure things. I hope to be there one day... so for now I am trying to rid myself of all impurity with the help of the HS.
3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
--Rom 14
Quote from: natcat86 on December 25, 2009, 01:20:52 AM
I heard the other day that it must have been around September time that Jesus was born because there were still Shephards in the feilds.
Yep. September was the best traveling time too. Not to hot. Not to cold. Anf just after the harvest. So things from the corners of the fields.
QuoteAlso Bethlehem was where they raised all the lambs that were to be sacrficed at the Temple.
250.000
Well I just know that since I found out about all the pagan roots of christmas I am seriously considering not being a part of it. Thats how I feel I dont expect anyone else to think the same way I do. I've just been giving my opinion, not judging others. Ironically if anyone thinks I have been judging, your judging me :happy3: Only messin y'all.
:girlheart:
Quote from: natcat86 on December 25, 2009, 02:04:25 AM
Well I just know that since I found out about all the pagan roots of christmas I am seriously considering not being a part of it. Thats how I feel I dont expect anyone else to think the same way I do. I've just been giving my opinion, not judging others. Ironically if anyone thinks I have been judging, your judging me :happy3: Only messin y'all.
:girlheart:
hey natcat... I understand. I had a year where I was going all through the pagan roots, etc. and I pretty much didn't celebrate christmas that year. We've all got to stay true to our beliefs, true to our heart, etc. so I am definitely not judging you.
Perhaps you will find that you will never celebrate Christmas ever again. And there is nothing wrong with that decision. We're all different. :HeartThrob:
For me, I'll just tell you that what I later discovered was that it didn't matter where certain traditions came from. I didn't know before and it didn't bother me, why should I let it bother me now? Outside influences mean NOTHING to me. It is what is in MY heart that matters. I don't care if people saw christmas trees as a symbol of this or that. For ME... I see a beautiful tree that God created, an EVERGREEN tree. I have my own personal symbolism. I love to go out and see all the houses lit up, it brings joy to my heart. I see all the beautiful lights and what I see are little beautiful lights in the darkness. This dark world that we are living in is only dark because people do NOT KNOW That God loves them with an immense, unbelievable love.
I see these pretty little lights and it reminds me that there ARE those who DO know.... little lights in the darkness. I also love to see the creativity and imagination people display with their lights and their decorations. Knowing that most of these folks are WANTING other people to FEEL HAPPY and smile when they see their display. Now how often does that kind of stuff happen all over?
That makes me happy to think that what people did to their houses... they want to DRAW people in and make them smile. :happy3: I like that.
People's "good will toward men" comes out in full force. People donate MORE during the holiday season than any other time of year.
This season is somewhat magical...memories of childhood... just a general feeling of peace.
Families getting together. Sure there are downsides to everything. We all have our own problems and issues. But for the most part, families stop to think of each other. I hate the materialism but people stopping and thinking of their loved ones and wanting to give them a gift that will make their face light up.
It's a time when Jesus is floating around in the minds of so many people.... whether they believe or not.
Good cheer, good will toward men.... there is a LOT to celebrate.
For me, it's about pushing AWAY any shred of darkness, and clinging to LIGHT.
LOVE is love. I don't care if someone says my tree in my house means I'm worshipping some pagan god or what have you. I am, of course... NOT! God SEES the heart. That is the MOST important thing. God SEES THE HEART.
And that is why "to the pure.... all things are pure.." It's not that you are some perfect person! It's just that if you see something THROUGH pure eyes... do you get what I mean?
Look at little children... the joy, the wonder, the happiness in their little faces...
Do you think the Father loves to see that?
Of course.
Be ye as little children...
Peace to you.
I absolutely do not judge you.
I understand where you are.
And there is nothing wrong with that.
We're all on our own path.
Neither of us are right or wrong.
We're just being who we are.
and God loves us just AS WE ARE.
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Sparrow you are a really special and beautiful person. :HeartThrob:
I feel a bit of... grief at the thought of not celebrating christmas for all the reasons you have listed. And to be honest this year I am going along with a lot of it becuase my husband isnt really convinced that we shouldn't yet. But I just think that Father is being quite clear with me at the moment, quite strict even becuase I have let so much rubbish creep in to my walk. But like I have said before its amazing that Father knows me so well and you so well and everyone so well that he can be teaching us all completely different things at the same time depending on our individual needs.
WOW!
:HeartThrob::cloud9: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: natcat86 on December 25, 2009, 02:32:39 AM
Sparrow you are a really special and beautiful person. :HeartThrob:
YOU are really special and beautiful NatCat... I'm really glad you joined tentmaker... :HeartThrob: :icon_flower:
Quote
I feel a bit of... grief at the thought of not celebrating christmas for all the reasons you have listed. And to be honest this year I am going along with a lot of it becuase my husband isnt really convinced that we shouldn't yet. But I just think that Father is being quite clear with me at the moment, quite strict even becuase I have let so much rubbish creep in to my walk. But like I have said before its amazing that Father knows me so well and you so well and everyone so well that he can be teaching us all completely different things at the same time depending on our individual needs.
WOW!
:HeartThrob::cloud9: :HeartThrob:
Amen sister! :HeartThrob:
:happy3:
Quote from: natcat86 on December 25, 2009, 01:44:19 AM
To the pure all things are pure becuase they have a mind like Christ, they dont think of or want un-pure things. I hope to be there one day... so for now I am trying to rid myself of all impurity with the help of the HS.
Amen :thumbsup:
To the pure all things are pure means that even when you walk into a Church of today and hear what is preached or read a study Bible that is as far off from the truth as Christmas is .............. is that you still know the truth and no matter the lies being spoken of the subject at hand
you still see the truth of the subject at hand......... please take this to heart :HeartThrob:
Dear Brothers and Sisters ....... we are not called to offer the lame for the praise of our lips........ we are called to offer the praise of our lips that is created in us by Him and that means to worship in Spirit (His) AND IN TRUTH !!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Molly on December 25, 2009, 01:45:11 AM
3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
--Rom 14
Hey Molly, don't steal my scripture!!! :happygrin:
On second thought, oh, OK, you can use it.
Quote from: natcat86 on December 25, 2009, 02:04:25 AM
Well I just know that since I found out about all the pagan roots of christmas I am seriously considering not being a part of it. Thats how I feel I dont expect anyone else to think the same way I do. I've just been giving my opinion, not judging others. Ironically if anyone thinks I have been judging, your judging me :happy3: Only messin y'all.
:girlheart:
I understand. I don't actually outright "celebrate Christmas" on the 25th, but I do spend time with my family, even exchange gifts...I don't participate in decorating the tree (though I'm present with the family, playing the piano while they decorate, talking to them) or make a big deal about the date, etc. I just try to strike a balance between being true to what my conscience tells me about what God wants for me, while trying to keep a peaceful, non-burdensome situation with my family. It seems to work OK, but I'm still walking it out, learning. I remember the scripture about "don't be over-much righteous"...if I sat around grousing, complaining, saying you shouldn't do this, shouldn't do that, then I don't see how that's really helping or being a good witness (never mind being somebody my own family wants to be around :bigGrin:). Step by step....
I copied the following off of asecular site dealing with the same question
Anyone here have the answer to this ????????
WW...... you are the one for research. Be interesting to hear what you come up with
Blessings
Doug
You want to figure out the birth date of Jesus? How about starting with the year? According to Luke, Joseph and Mary were traveling to Bethlehem to participate in the census that Cesar Augustus ordered. This census of Judea is a well-recorded historical fact, the Census of Quirinius, and it took place in A.D. 6 and 7.
However, Matthew states that after Jesus was born, the Magi visited Mary and Joseph and warned them that King Herod the Great was planning to kill Jesus. So Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt with Jesus, only returning to Judea after King Herod died. And there were several Jewish kings named "Herod" at this time, but we know specifically that Herod the Great was the one who ordered that Jesus be killed, because Matthew 2:22 specifically states that "Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod" (KJV). Jospeh feared that Archelaus would be as cruel as his father had been, so after their return from Egypt, he settled the family in Nazareth in the territory of Galilee, which was ruled by Antipas, Archelaus' brother.
Now, here's the problem. Herod the Great died in 4 BC, a full 10 years before Augustus decreed his census on Judea. In fact, Archelaus was not even the ruler of Judea when the census was decreed. The entire reason that Augustus ordered a census of Judea is because he removed Archelaus as ruler and put Judea under direct Roman rule.
So Matthew says that Jesus must have been born no later than 4 BC, because Herod was still alive when He was born.
But Luke says that Jesus must have been born on or after A.D. 6, a full 9 or 10 years after the death of Herod, because Mary was still pregnant with Jesus when they traveled to Bethlehem to participate in the census.
So, which book is wrong, Luke's or Matthew's?
Both books a right....
http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/con100.asp
Sensus can also mean taxation (for the military) (http://doig.net/NTC05.htm)
I agree WW. This from your link helps - good find;
Indeed, it seems that Caesar Augustus was the type of leader who ordered many censuses in his day. Augustus himself notes in his Res Gestae (The Deeds of Augustus) that he ordered three wide-spread censuses of Roman citizens, one in 28B.C., one in 8 B.C. and one in 14 A.D.2 In between there are several other censuses that happened locally across Rome. Luke's account corroborates the idea of multiple censuses for Judea when he writes "This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria." Certainly, the word "first" implies that where was more than one census happened.
The only point that is really in question, then, is whether Luke was mistaken in ascribing this census to the time when Quirinius was in the role of Syrian Governor.
Justin Martyr's Apology .....writing that Quirinius was a "procurator", not a governor of the area of Judea.6 As Gleason Archer writes, "In order to secure efficiency and dispatch, it may well have been that Augustus put Quirinius in charge of the census-enrollment in Syria between the close of Saturninus's administration and the beginning of Varus's term of service in 7 B.C. It was doubtless because of his competent handling of the 7 B.C. census that Augustus later put him in charge of the 7 A.D. census."7 If Quirinius did hold such a position, then we have no contradiction. The first census was taken during the time of Jesus birth, but Josephus' census would have come later.
Animation of what was possibly the star of Bethlehem (http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Yeshua/xmas_star.swf)
http://mayimhayim.org/Academic%20Stuff/The%20Debate%20of%20Timing.htm
http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/herod/herod.html
2.3 Empire-wide Registration
Until recently, no empire-wide enrollment (Luke 2:1) was known that would have been required of Joseph and Mary; the commonly cited taxation of 8 B.C. applied only to Roman citizens. Now Martin has identified it as a combined census and oath of allegiance to Augustus in 3-2 B.C., perhaps related to the bestowal of the title "pater patriae" (father of thy country) by the senate on Feb. 5, 2 B.C.[10] Josephus records that over 6,000 Pharisees refused to pledge their good will to Caesar (about a year or so before Herod died),[11] probably referring to that oath because the census would have recorded how many refused. Orosius (a fifth century historian) clearly links an oath to the registration at the birth of Christ:
"[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. So at that time, Christ was born and was entered on the Roman census list as soon as he was born. This is the earliest and most famous public acknowledgment which marked Caesar as the first of all men and the Romans as lords of the world ... that first and greatest census was taken, since in this one name of Caesar all the peoples of the great nations took oath, and at the same time, through the participation in the census, were made part of one society."[12]
Jesus was born on April 15th at 1am 1987A.D.
IMO
OK Lee, I'll bite. IN YOU, right? :Sparkletooth:
Here are some articles on the birth of Jesus. Dr. Martin thinks Jesus was born in Sept. 2 or 3 BC. He uses the star and astronomy, taxation, time of John's birth and other things to prove this. I don't know if he has the right date right or not but it sure is worth reading.
http://www.askelm.com/star/index.asp
CHB
Thanks, I'm going to read it tommorow. (bedtime now)
But I had to peek before going to bed.
QuoteWhat New Moon could this have been? The answer is most amazing. It is almost too amazing! September 11, 3 B.C.E. was Tishri One on the Jewish calendar. To Jewish people this would have been a very profound occasion indeed. Tishri One is none other than the Jewish New Year's day
I'm pretty sure Jewish new year starts in spring (Nisan/Abib/First Fruits) at that time. Much later ,133AD I think, that date was changed.
AFAIK currently the Jews have a secular and a religious new year.
Other "star dates" are 7BC, September 5 BC, September 3 BC
Gonna read it all in 6 hours.
Nite.
A Candle in the Darkness
As people across the world tonight light Christmas candles at Christmas Eve services, my mind goes back to another Christmas 20 years ago in Romania, when the country was still in the grip of communist tyranny.
The story begins with Laszlo Tokes, pastor of a fast-growing reformed church in the city of Timisoara. His powerful preaching had caught the attention of communist officials, and they began a strategy of suppression. They stationed police officers around his church, machine guns cradled in their arms. They hired thugs to attack him. Finally, just before Christmas, they decided to send him into exile.
But when the police arrived to hustle Pastor Tokes away, they were stopped cold. Around the church stood a wall of humanity. Christians from around the city—Baptist, Pentecostal, Orthodox, Catholic—had joined together to protest.
All through the day they held their post. As it grew dark, a young Baptist student named Daniel Gavra pulled out a packet of candles, lit one, and passed it to his neighbor.
Then he lit another. One by one the burning candles were passed out among the crowd. Soon the darkness of the December night was pierced by the light of hundreds of candles. When Pastor Tokes looked out his window, he saw a sea of faces lit up by a warm glow.
That night, he said later, was the "turning point in my life." He would never erase from his mind the picture of believers from all denominations joining hands in his defense.
Two days later, police finally broke through the crowd and dragged Pastor Tokes away. But that was not the end. The people now streamed to the city square and began a full-scale demonstration against the communist government.
Once again Daniel Gavra passed out his candles. Once again the night was lit by their glow.
Finally, the communist officials began to panic. They brought in troops and ordered them to open fire on the crowd. Hundreds were shot. Young Daniel felt a searing pain as his leg was blown off.
Yet the brave example set in Timisoara inspired the rest of the nation. Within days the entire population of Romania had risen up and the bloody dictator Ceausescu was gone. The churches filled with worshippers offering praise to God.
For the first time in half a century, the people of Romania celebrated Christmas in freedom.
In the hospital, Daniel Gavra celebrated while learning to walk with crutches. His pastor came by, offering him sympathy, but Daniel wasn't looking for sympathy.
"Oh, Pastor," he said softly. "I don't mind so much the loss of a leg. After all, it was I who lit the first candle."
What a powerful image for us here in America as we celebrate this Christmas—the picture of a black December night lit up by a glowing testimony to the unity of God's people.
What mighty things the church could do today when it truly is the church: when we stand shoulder to shoulder with all our brothers and sisters, ready to fight evil, prepared to give our limbs—and yes, even our lives—to light a candle in the darkness.
http://www.breakpoint.org/commentaries/13937-a-candle-in-the-darkness
Quote from: Livelystone on December 25, 2009, 12:32:21 PM
I copied the following off of asecular site dealing with the same question
Anyone here have the answer to this ????????
WW...... you are the one for research. Be interesting to hear what you come up with
......
But Luke says that Jesus must have been born on or after A.D. 6, a full 9 or 10 years after the death of Herod, because Mary was still pregnant with Jesus when they traveled to Bethlehem to participate in the census.
So, which book is wrong, Luke's or Matthew's?[/i]
From the link of CHB. (Yes CHB I'm really reading it but I have much to verify before I can agree/disagree :happy3:)
QuoteAnother important matter occurred in 2 B.C.E. Augustus was given his most prestigious title: Pater Patriae (Father of the Country). In the previous year a decree went out from Augustus that required "the entire Roman people" scattered over the Empire to register their approval that Augustus should be given the most prestigious title of his career, the Pater Patriae. 12 This registration of people in all areas of the Empire was an oath in which individuals proclaimed the emperor Augustus as the "Father of the Country." This oath took place in the summer of 3 B.C.E. and it was required of all Roman citizens and others of distinguished rank among the client kingdoms associated with Rome. 13 This universal census of allegiance to Augustus was demanded of those who claimed any kind of authority within the Empire. The whole of the Roman Empire responded, and Augustus was gloriously proclaimed the Pater Patriae (the Father of the Country).
.............
We now know that an Empire-wide citizen registration took place for the award of the Pater Patriae upon Augustus in early 2 B.C.E. 3 This was the census Luke meant.
I highlighed a part in blue.
Usually Jesus (and His earthly father) are said to be simple carpenters.
But the current day scholars seem to agree that's not true.
There is some slight disagreement what the word Tekton excatly meant.
Some views are quoted below annother view is that it means someone that make constructions of wood. A simple bookshelf could be called a construction but a house or bridge are constructions too. Likely they where the ones in charge. Architect/engineer ???
I think that also gives some understanding why Jesus knew so much about the Scriptures.
He could read and had access to books. Very uncommon to poor families I think...?
QuoteThe common conception of Joseph is that he was a carpenter (Matthew 13:55), however, this is a mis-translation of the Greek word, tecton (tekton), which more accurately should be called "general contractor", or more provocatively, "Master of the Craft" (Gardner, 2001). In fact, the Protoevangelium of James, [1] which concerns the lives of Jesus' parents, specifically identifies Joseph as a general contractor. The Blueletter Bible offers various translations of tekton - (1) a worker in wood, a carpenter, joiner, builder, (2) any craftsman, or workman (e.g., the art of poetry, maker of songs), and (3) a planner, contriver, plotter, or (4) an author.
When one looks at the parables which Jesus told, they were often about constructing a building, rather than making an object. This indicates that his experiences along these lines were more architectural (ie., builder) rather than artisan (maker).
Even more challenging is the concept that tecton/tekton is best translated as scholar, since the original Aramaic word is naggar, which translates as craftsman or scholar (Wilson, 1992, p. 893). Indeed several notable authors (e.g., Thiering, 1992; Wilson, 1992; Vermes,1973) believe that Joseph is best understood as a scholar, and it's as the son of a scholar that Jesus is more readily understood, rather than the son of a carpenter. Certainly this image of the scholar is more consistent with Luke's (2:46-47) tale of the 12-year old Jesus in the Temple, where "...all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers."
Quote from: Cardinal on December 24, 2009, 06:46:56 PM
:cloud9: And.......wise men still seek Him....... :icon_king:
13 And
suddenly with the messenger there came to be a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and saying,
14 "Glory to God among the Highest! And on earth peace, Among men, delight!"
Quote from: jabcat on December 25, 2009, 06:24:09 PM
OK Lee, I'll bite. IN YOU, right? :Sparkletooth:
Yes of course, IN Me.
Everyday is "Christmas " as the Spirit increases.
What the Lord desires is "Easter" among His Sons!