Mike Williams Resources

[bhark54]

Immorality would be the train of thought. Incest and homosexuality both qualify.

As does a long list of other behaviors, what makes homosexuality special?  That you or I find the behaviour repugnant has no bearing. 

Jesus said if a man just lusts in his heart after a woman then that is adultery.  I would like to meet any man who has ever not been guilty of that immoral sin.  If we excluded that immorality from the "church"  would a single non-comatose male be left?

No, we can't judge the heart, but outward acts are a given.

That is a cop out to your argument.  Just as I have never seen a man lust in his heart at church (though in truth I have seen that), I have never seen a gay couple copulate during church.  By your argument anything less then eye witness would be judging.  I don't know about you but I don't hang around the bedrooms of my fellow believers. 

I am 53 years old, have ministered in a traditional evangelical church for more the 35 years.  I am quite certain that I have worshipped with, ministered with and ministered to homosexual men and women sometime during that time.  I have never,ever witnessed an outward act of immorality by homosexuals during those times of ministry.  If you assume that two men or women living together for a long  period of time means they are committing immoral homosexual acts then you are indeed judging.  By that standard every Bible college in the world is full of immoral young men and women.

If the acts that homosexuals commit make them sinful and immoral, then don't our acts (sin) make us immoral?  If sin is sin, big or little, then  what does it matter what kind of sin makes us immoral?  Are there sins that we commit that don't make us immoral?

I truly am not responding to your post just to be right or even argumentative.  I appreciate it that your really talking about judgment and not eternal damnation. However, it seems that we replaced Mosiac law with the law of love, then we replaced the law with love with religion and legalism.  Now it seems even those who believe in Grace and the finished work of Christ want to have their ounce of blood from those we deem less worthy of Grace then us. 

Peace and Love in Him

[ken]

I am sure there dozens ,if not hundreds more, of Pauls teachings that the church ignores.  Since I am not wise enough to discern which ones apply and which ones don't I think it is best to simply follow the commandment to love one another.

Why even have a Bible, then? What are any of us doing quoting anything from the scriptures?

On this very forum there are reams and reams worth of debates and discussions over Bible passages...Greek and Hebrew word studies...comparisons of versions, on and on. But heck, Jesus summed up the law and the prophets with one command- so why do all of the mental gymnastics, right?

Well, I don't know if others would agree, but I believe the law has a very specific purpose, and it's the reason we all clamor around the Bible in order justify our "prejudices". Paul said he wouldn't have known what coveting was if there hadn't been the command "Do not covet". But coveteousness, paid for by Jesus' blood on the cross or not, was going to eventually produce some real problems for Paul, and possibly those close to Paul if it weren't identified and dealt with.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus' death is the payment of those wages- but it seems we want to forget the second part of the deal- the even better news, that through His resurrection comes the power over sin.  It's why He came.  To destroy the works of the devil, not so that we can continue in them and "everything will be okay, it's 'paid for'".

My ex-brother-in-law turned to homosexuality- destroying both his family and himself.  Do I love him? You bet. He is deceived and bearing the fruit of confusion beset on him by both the church and his immediate family (since childhood) and I have compassion on him in that regard.

Would it be "love" if I told him the "gospel" that "if he's okay with it, God's okay with it", despite the carnage of pain and hurt that it's caused our family, and the future hurt and the promised retribution to come?

No.  Love will tell the truth- God's displeasure- and the FULL gospel, that through the power of Jesus' death and resurrection he can be "saved from his sin" (not just hell).

As for your claim of not having "wisdom to discern" what to follow in the Scripture, it will never be achieved out of your "wisdom", or lack of it. Everything is by the Spirit. If that's not your compass, you're very right- you will fail and you're just as well to throw your Bible away.

And as I'm getting ready to post this I see your second reply so I'll just respond to it now.

As does a long list of other behaviors, what makes homosexuality special?  That you or I find the behaviour repugnant has no bearing.

.

Not special, this is a defined act. Yes, under the law- just like murder and adultery, lying..etc.  My take on the reasons for using definitions from the law is cited in this post.

That is a cop out to your argument.  Just as I have never seen a man lust in his heart at church (though in truth I have seen that), I have never seen a gay couple copulate during church.  By your argument anything less then eye witness would be judging.  I don't know about you but I don't hang around the bedrooms of my fellow believers.

I really don't even see a need to answer this but I will. It's not a cop out to claim homosexuality as an outward act. You don't need to actually witness the act in progress. The mere fact that anyone calls themselves "homosexual" is the very definition of what they do, otherwise why would they call themselves such?

I truly am not responding to your post just to be right or even argumentative.  I appreciate it that your really talking about judgment and not eternal damnation. However, it seems that we replaced Mosiac law with the law of love, then we replaced the law with love with religion and legalism.  Now it seems even those who believe in Grace and the finished work of Christ want to have their ounce of blood from those we deem less worthy of Grace then us.

I think this current post (above) answers this sufficiently.

edit: but to sum it up, grace isn't just about forgiveness, it includes the power to change.  That's why Paul as much as said the church is really doing no favors for the wicked by allowing them to remain in their wickedness among them.

peace and love back.   :boyheart:

[reFORMer]

"Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?" (Malachi 2:17)

There are more open and public meetings where "whosoever will may come," but with the intent that they "take freely of the river of the water of Life."  There are also more closed meetings.  When Paul was finally released into his apostolic ministry we're told in Acts 13 :1-2,

"Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers...As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them."

This is something we'd probably do more exclusively as the Church.  Another example of more private gatherings is...

1 Corinthians 5:4-13:
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

In such circumstances as putting away from protection among us someone so their flesh may be destroyed, it seems we are not holding a public meeting.  Notice, it is to their salvation such is done.  Following is an example of unbelieving or newly believing people attending our gatherings:

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

As we continue this passage from 1 Co 14 below, consider that we do not want the spirits behind perversion or other wickedness creating the atmosphere for The Saints, that is, The Holy Ones.  We also disallow their influence on our children.  By no means is it irrelevant that some of our personal problems may be as much an attraction as to rightly find such repugnant.  We are told to know them that labor among us.  Strangers or the wicked, though they may occasionally attend, are not welcome to the every member participation that the body of Christ should be experiencing.  Our normal "round-table" structure meetings involve more mutual recognition as members of Christ's body.  The special or beginers meetings that are of a less participatory "lecture" structure it is not as crucial for us to monitor one-another because these are less "one anothering" in format.  Those who regularly are only an audience for a performance on stage by substitute mediators, what they have to do with being the body of Christ is uncertain.  What they do with homosexuals, as apostates themselves, is hardly to be regarded as pacesetting for us.  To continue with the next verse in chpt 14:

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."

This is about "those from a common womb", the "brethren!"

---James

[bhark54]

 

But heck, Jesus summed up the law and the prophets with one command- so why do all
of the mental gymnastics, right?

I agree, those mental gymnastics are the basis of practicing "religion", which has nothing
to do with the simple fact of a completed act of reconciliation initiated by God.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus' death is the payment of those wages- but it seems
we want to forget the second part of the deal- the even better news, that through His
resurrection comes the power over sin.  It's why He came.  To destroy the works of the
devil, not so that we can continue in them and "everything will be okay, it's 'paid
for'".

I agree, sinful (unhealthy) living will eventually cause a physical death.  Other kinds of
sins will cause, for lack of a better word, spiritual dis-ease.  However, because of Grace
I refuse to believe that God is some sort of cosmic accountant, tallying up sins and acts
of repentance. In any case we are not God's hall monitors. 

Sins power is in its ability to separate us from God and from each other.  If the
work of the cross has not already conquered sin and death then we have no hope. 

Does God love someone less while they are "in sin?"  Of course not.  We can do nothing to
make God love us more, nor can we do anything to make Him love us less.  We are human, we
are going to miss the mark, we are going to offend.  Does God want us to be sinless? He
knows that is not possible.  Does God want us to sin less? Yes!  We are refined by Him
daily.  His judgments are applied daily through his physical laws of the universe and by His all consuming, corrective love.   

You believe that homosexuality is one of Pauls "named" sins.  But we (the church) almost
universally regard many of Pauls other "named" sins as of no consequence in this age.  What
if Paul named homosexuality a sin as a result of his personal discomfort of most all things
sexual?  He barely even allowed for marriage and only then because it was better to marry then to burn with lust. 

If two consenting people (gay or straight), share a moment of loving intimacy, why does that
have to rock the foundations of Christendom? Surely there are things of more consequence than  sexual relationships? God created the universe, all the galaxies, all the planets and moons.  On this planet He created the land and the seas.  He created all the life.  After creation we have messed things up pretty good.  We kill each other by the millions, hate each other by the billions.  We fight each other over things large and small.  We damage each other with cruel acts and hateful words.  It is hard for me to believe that while God is at work in His creation and he happens to notice that Bruce and Tom are sharing an intimate embrace He goes ballistic and sounds the "red (or pink) alert." 

I suspect that the pain and damage caused by your ex-brother-in-law was the result of his no longer being able to deny his nature.  Whether he was "born that way" or chose that way does not matter. I was born a heterosexual and for that I am thankful.  I cannot imagine the guilt and pain that homosexuals must go through and are subjected to.  My belief is that sexual preference is inborn, why would anyone want to choose such a life of pain, judgment, rejection and exclusion? 

I would suggest that the "named" sin of obesity (glutteny) has destroyed more lives and more families then homosexuality.  By any measure there are far more obese people then gay people.  Yet we don't comdemn fat people.  We don't judge them as immoral.  We easily accept that they can't help it, that   maybe they are born that way. We don't exclude morbidly obese people from worship or positions of leadership.  Perhaps we should place scales in the church and discipline those whose fat percentage is too high?

My whole, poorly argued and explained, point is this:
1.  Why focus on one sin to use to justify exclusion?
2.  We should be relating to others in a true spirit of love.
3.  It is Gods job to judge, punish and correct, not ours, I think history has proven that
      mere men have never had the wisdom or "spirit" to handle that task.
4.  If I follow Jesus's footsteps closely I don't need  to worry about where Paul stands.
5.  If you think you are morally superior to or less sinful then someone else to the point of being able to exercise your corrective judgment upon them, then you can be sure someone else  is thinking the same thing about you.

Bob H

[laren]

  If you think you are morally superior to or less sinful then someone else to the point of being able to exercise your corrective judgment upon them, then you can be sure someone else  is thinking the same thing about you.

Bob H

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Kratos]

Those of us who have been "suffering with the Lord outside the camp" for very long sometimes forget that the "church" has three manifestations as revealed in the Bible.

(1) every individual is the church and the temple of the Holy Spirit.

(2) corporately, within a given locality, the individual members are assembled together as a local expression of the Body of Christ. This is a physical gathering of a spiritual body and has governments which include elders of overseers.

(3) every person who has ever been born-again whether in Heaven or still in earth make up the Universal Church of the Firstborn.

In many of Paul's epistles, he deals with the second of these manifestations. Any person whether they continue to practice sin or not, can come to the Lord and be a part of the first group for all may come as they are led by the Spirit and He will save to the uttermost. If they do, whether they change or not, they are automatically a part of the third group.

However, God has placed certain requirements upon the Elders and Overseers in the physical expression of the local body to not allow a little leaven to spoil the whole lump. There is a problem when we think we can exalt our views over those of the Lord as reveled in His Word. Jesus is still the Head of the Church and He instructs us as to how we are to react to those who will not repent of immorality.

1Co 5:9  I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10  Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13  But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

There is a very important distinction given in these verses. When Paul told them to not keep company with those who live in unrepentent sin, he was not talking about unbelievers. We should remain open to all who seek the Lord who we know so they will desire the Lord whom we serve. But, we are commanded not to fellowship with a brother or a sister who continues in sin without repentence. We should not hinder anyone from coming in to the church, but we should retain the visible manifestation of the church as a safe place and a vision on earth as it is in Heaven.

We do not do an unrepentent sinner any favor allowing them to believe that the Lake of Fire is not real or that God can be mocked concerning sowing to the flesh. Once Christ lives within us, He will deliver us from all of our destructions as long as we agree with Him that sin is sin. However, when we no longer confess our sin (homologia) and instead try to change the truth of God into a lie, the church should not support the lie by embracing a life-style which reaps the whirlwind.

It is not Christ's love to reject a lost person from receiving Christ regardless of their lifestyle. And, it is not Christ's love to treat a brother or a sister as though continuing in sin will not cause them more pain in God's consuming fire.

John

[ken]

There is a very important distinction given in these verses. When Paul told them to not keep company with those who live in unrepentent sin, he was not talking about unbelievers. We should remain open to all who seek the Lord who we know so they will desire the Lord whom we serve. But, we are commanded not to fellowship with a brother or a sister who continues in sin without repentence. We should not hinder anyone from coming in to the church, but we should retain the visible manifestation of the church as a safe place and a vision on earth as it is in Heaven.

We do not do an unrepentent sinner any favor allowing them to believe that the Lake of Fire is not real or that God can be mocked concerning sowing to the flesh. Once Christ lives within us, He will deliver us from all of our destructions as long as we agree with Him that sin is sin. However, when we no longer confess our sin (homologia) and instead try to change the truth of God into a lie, the church should not support the lie by embracing a life-style which reaps the whirlwind.

It is not Christ's love to reject a lost person from receiving Christ regardless of their lifestyle. And, it is not Christ's love to treat a brother or a sister as though continuing in sin will not cause them more pain in God's consuming fire.

John

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:   you said it better than I did.   :winkgrin:

[Dean]

  If you think you are morally superior to or less sinful then someone else to the point of being able to exercise your corrective judgment upon them, then you can be sure someone else  is thinking the same thing about you.

Bob H

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Bob,

I think that your posts are revealing the life & spirit of Scripture on this subject... I thank you.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Dean

[ken]

It seems there's a preponderance for some to believe that the concept of sin has been eradicated along with the concept of an eternal hell. How sad.  :sigh:

[ken]

I just want to address this:

I suspect that the pain and damage caused by your ex-brother-in-law was the result of his no longer being able to deny his nature.  Whether he was "born that way" or chose that way does not matter. I was born a heterosexual and for that I am thankful.  I cannot imagine the guilt and pain that homosexuals must go through and are subjected to.  My belief is that sexual preference is inborn, why would anyone want to choose such a life of pain, judgment, rejection and exclusion?

Yeah, the poor homosexual. Nobody understands him. Only he could be the victim of his sin right? Not my sister, who endured nearly a year of his "infidelity", while leading a life of celibacy as a married woman.  She was the most patient and loving of all.

Not his three children, either. Who basically have no father, and haven't had one since he "found his freedom"- months before the charade of a marriage was ended.

Yes, we're all so concerned that homosexuals find out who they really are, so everyone can be contented and live happily ever after.

Maybe you could explain this to his x-family. Explain to the kids that their dad was within his rights to "find himself". And help them know it couldn't be out of any selfishness or enjoyment of sin on his part. If you think selfishness wasn't involved- the man hired one of the best divorce lawyers in town and took the best of the furniture (yes including the table his kids eat from) to enjoy with his new "mates", while leaving my sister and the kids in their mortgaged house, with now no way to make the payments-  just waiting for the bank to come and take it back.  But there'll be no accountability for this- because he's the victim, right?

UNREAL.

The fact is sin kills, it steals, it destroys- NOT just the sinner, but everyone close to him or her in most cases.

I don't have any more to discuss with you, Bob. We are obviously in disagreement over the root of homosexuality, you think it's inborn, and I think it's cultivated. So you see a total victim, while I see depravity (however wrought through temptation and circumstances) that refuses to allow the work of the cross.

Whether homosexuals are "born that way" or "become that way" really is a moot point, in that regard though, isn't it? You talk about my ex-brother-in-law "no longer being able to deny his nature". But isn't that whole point of the gospel? That Jesus came to free us from that "nature"? And yes, he was at one time a professing Christian. I'm grateful he doesn't profess it any more, because he knows he isn't living it. At least he has sense enough to see that, though if he talked with you he'd probably change his mind.  :sigh:

And in regard to this (though I probably shouldn't waste the bandwidth):

I would suggest that the "named" sin of obesity (glutteny) has destroyed more lives and more families then homosexuality.  By any measure there are far more obese people then gay people.  Yet we don't comdemn fat people.  We don't judge them as immoral.

Obesity and gluttony aren't synonymous terms. There are reasons people become obese beyond "over-eating". So you can't claim obesity is a sin. You also subvert your own argument with the comparison. I've never heard of anyone being "born obese". Nor have I heard of anyone "destroying" their family's lives through being over-weight. I have some relatives that would be considered obese. They have normal, healthy, LOVING relationships with their families. Not so with the example of my x-brother-in-law.


In Him,

ken

[bhark54]

Since Ken  won't be reading this my comments are just for those who might be following the discussion.

the pain and damage caused by your ex-brother-in-law

I guess you missed that part.  Of course I recognize the damage done to his family.
Of course I have even more compassion torward them as innocent victims.  But the topic
of discussion was a particular named sin.

Of course he has responsibility to his family, to his debts.  Of course as his brother in law I would insist, forcefully if need be, that he fulfills those responsibilities. I would use every personal and civil remedy available to see that he takes care of his family.  And I would do it in love.   

But none of that has anything to do with "church discipline."   We are all human.  How can it be that those who sins are hidden can discipline those whos sins have been exposed?  Since my hidden sin (whatever it is) is more culturally acceptable I have the right to spiritually "correct" those who's exposed sin is less acceptable?  The results of "church discipline" in the past is the very reason we have 20,000 to 30,000 denominations/"movements" now.  The divided church is why the world sees us as hypocritical.  Maybe Paul was wise enough to apply it, but I don't think anyone else since him has been.   The result of mere humans applying "church discipline" is what gave power to the Roman Catholic church. 

he was at one time a professing Christian. I'm grateful he doesn't profess it any more

You can't actually be happy that anyone is pushed away from Jesus or His influence can you?

Nor have I heard of anyone "destroying" their family's lives through being over-weight.

I guess I just made it up that obesity it a leading cause of heart attacks and a myriad of other deadly health issues.   When someone dies decades before they should I would guess that has an detrimental effect on their families, but maybe I am wrong.

It seems there's a preponderance for some to believe that the concept of sin has been eradicated along with the concept of an eternal hell. How sad

I certainly never said that.  Sin and its effects are very real.  I just think humans are ill equipped to shake the sin out of other humans. 

[Craig]

I went through your discussion and I agree with Ken concerning your comparisons. Obesity is not the cause of anything, but unhealthy living can cause obesity. Just like there is bad carbs like white flour, white sugar, etc. there is good carbs, whole grains, nuts, etc. There is a problem when you are trying to make a point and you error in your comparisons. My great grandfather was considered obese when he died of natural causes at age 87. He died healthy and obese. So stop trying to prove your point on obesity and make your point.

[Kratos]

As with so many situations, this comes down to who is Lord and who is the Head of the Church? The Kosmos is a spiritual Kingdom where man leans on the tree of their knowledge of good and evil to determine what is right and wrong. God's Kingdom is where we lean on the tree of life to determine what He says is right and wrong.

God said through Paul that if a man who calls himself a brother continues in immorality, you should not fellowship with or even eat with them. He told Paul to instruct the Church in Corinth to put out the man committing immorality so the whole church is not effected and so that this man could bear with the consequences and repent. Once he did repent (II Cor. 5), God told them through Paul to receive the man back into their fellowship.

So, if you are a citizen of the Kosmos, you will allow all kinds of immoral behavior to remain in your churches because you are your own Lord and the head of your own church.

But, if you are a part of God's Kingdom and Jesus is Lord and He is the Head of the Church, you will love all, receive unbelievers who are still in immoral lifestyles that they may be saved, and put out those who are saved, but will not relent so they can bear their consequences and repent and be welcomed back into fellowship.

Why is just doing the Word never good enough for so many?

John

[bhark54]

I certainly am glad your great grandfather lived to be 87.   

While it is true that some people suffer from obesity due to glandular issues, the vast majority of overweight people are that way simply because they eat to much and exercise to little.   Gluttony is eating or drinking to excess.  If I don't have a glandular issue and I am obese then I must be eating to much.  Currently half of Christendom (the Catholic Church) lists gluttony as a mortal sin, worthy of a permanent loss of grace.  Of course I don't agree with that, but that is not the point of why I brought it up. 

My point was simply that it is foolish to  pick one "named" sin to exclude (apply church discipline) someone while you ignore other "named" sins. 

Obesity is not the cause of anything

According to the National Institutes of Health, obesity and overweight together are the second leading cause of preventable death in the United States, close behind tobacco use. An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic .

Please notify the AMA and the NIH with regards to your personal findings, you will obviously save them a lot of needless concern and effort.

So stop trying to prove your point on obesity and make your point.

Thank you for your loving spirit and valuable contribution to this discussion.   

[bhark54]

John,

I appreciate your carefully considered responses.  The problem I have in applying the church discipline teachings that Paul gave to the early church is that we in this age ignore much of what he said.  We pick and choose.  Secondly, are there many as wise as Paul today that could properly apply it today?  In the past I have seen horribly misapplied. 

Thanks again for you input.

Bob H

[Craig]

Okay, so going on small rabbit trails is considered productive by yourself? Since you want to go that way. It is not OBESITY that is the cause of health problems. Unhealthy lifestyles lead to health problems and obesity. OBESITY IS A HEALTH PROBLEM, most of the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity
http://www.annecollins.com/obesity/causes-of-obesity.htm
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/o/obesity/causes.htm

So cause and effect, obesity is an effect, not the cause. You don't get cholestrol problems because your obese, you have cholestrol problems because you eat unhealthy food and because you eat unhealthy food you become obese (sometimes).

Thank you for your loving spirit and valuable contribution to this discussion. 

Sarcasm is defined:

Sarcasm is the sneering, jesting, or mocking of a person, situation or thing. It is strongly associated with irony, with some definitions classifying it as a type of verbal irony intended to insult or wound — stating the opposite of the intended meaning, e.g. using "that's fantastic" to mean "that's awful".

Sarcasm:
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony. 
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark:

So sarcasm is definitely a lack of loving spirit, and really does nothing to contribute to a conversation. I know I was not sarcastic when I said, "So stop trying to prove your point on obesity and make your point." You lost your point on obesity, because you were simply wrong about what obesity is, so drop it and make your point (some other way!).

So if you understood that and your remark...

Thank you for your loving spirit and valuable contribution to this discussion. 

...was sincere, then I appreciate it. Thank-you for understanding that my comment was for the value of the conversation.

[bhark54]

Precisely my point, you almost made the presumption to understand the motivation of my heart, and you would have been  wrong, presumptions can be wrong, even when applying church discipline.    I replied in genuine kindness to your command that I make my point.
Even as imperfect as I am I try to err on the side of grace. 

Bob

[shibboleth]

Immorality is an awful big umbrella.  I am not sure how you go from immorality to "incest/homosexuality" as if those two are somehow linked in Pauls train of thought in this scripture. Yes, isn't all sin immoral? Why do we divide sin into categories and say some sin is minor and some sin is major? Would I be thrown out of the physical church because I am overweight? Would I be considered a glutton? How about if I told "little white lies" all day long? Does it matter how many or what kind of lies I tell; aren't I still a liar? What if I gossip "mildly" about others? Am I to be put out for that? Who determines what sins are to separate us from our brothers? How about anger? I still have a bad temper at times. Am I out? I could go on and on, but, the point is, we only become more like Christ when we stop judging others for their sins, and look at ourselves first.

Jesus said if a man just lusts in his heart after a woman then that is adultery.  I would like to meet any man who has ever not been guilty of that immoral sin.  If we excluded that immorality from the "church"  would a single non-comatose male be left? How about if I am on a diet and only "lust after" the chocolate cake....am I sinning? How about if I hate my brother or enemy in my heart? And I want to murder him? This has happened to me recently. Am I out of the church?

Are you thinking that those who only occasionally commit immoral acts are different than those who live a "lifestyle" that presents more regular opportunities to commit immoral acts? Even if they don't act it out, are they still sinning in their hearts and lusting, stealing, lying in their minds?

Once I master "loving my brother as myself" (unless that scripture is promoting both incest and homosexuality?)  than maybe I can move onto the higher calling of deciding who is moral and who isn't. Me too.

To me the biggest act of immorality is to willfully want to exclude anybody from the love of God and His family.Wow, that's the most loving statement I have read about grace. I, too, would be delighted to go to Mike's church services and anyone else out there who is a sinner; JUST LIKE ME, but I've been washed (by the blood) and I've been cleansed (by the blood) and I'm a new creature in Christ Jesus. If there's any changes to be made, He will make them. Yes, I can hunger and thirst after righteousness, but only God can truly change a black, dead heart into a red, living heart.

[Kratos]

John,

I appreciate your carefully considered responses.  The problem I have in applying the church discipline teachings that Paul gave to the early church is that we in this age ignore much of what he said.  We pick and choose.  Secondly, are there many as wise as Paul today that could properly apply it today?  In the past I have seen horribly misapplied. 

Thanks again for you input.

Bob H

Bob,

Thank you for your thoughts. To me, the place where God makes the distinction is in the unrepentent heart of the sinner. The man used as an example by the Holy Spirit in First and Second Corinthians was "put out" and turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit could be saved in the day of the Lord because he would not repent under church discipline. That is the difference as I see it.

I do not believe that one sin should be exalted or resisted above another, but the way to make treatment equal is not to ignore the clear instruction in the Word and ignore them all. The Bible says that if we "confess' our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. I think you are probably familiar with what confession means:

G3670
ὁμολογέω
homologeō
hom-ol-og-eh'-o
From a compound of the base of G3674 and G3056; to assent, that is, covenant, acknowledge: - con- (pro-) fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise.

This is a combination of two Greek words. Homo (no pun intended(its a joke)) meaning the same as and Logio or logos meaning the written Word. So, confession means to say the same as the Word does about your sin.

I am sure that Paul followed his own teaching from God and had one go to this man and then to take two or three. But, now Paul is writing that this man says that a man should have his father's wife. This was not a man who was fighting against his flesh to overcome an acknowleged sin, this was a man who was exalting what He thought over the Word. He did not think that what he was doing was wrong and this is the Luciferic initiative of exalting your throne over God's and trying to change the truth into a lie.

So, let's take homosexuality since you brought it up, but I do not think this sin is worse than others. If a man is lost and has believed that homosexuality is normal and inborn, we should have grace for them and try to show that Jesus died for them so they can receive Him as Lord and receive the power to Overcome this sin. This is why Paul says that when he instructed them not to fellowship with immoral men, he was not talking about unbelievers. An unbeliever has no power to overcome sin.

However, once a man is saved and truly makes Jesus their Lord, they cannot be allowed to continue to challenge that very Lordship by calling homosexuality as anything but sin. This is homologia and neccessary for a man to be cleansed of this unrighteousness.

So, please understand this, the reason that homosexuality is treated differently than gluttony is homosexuals lie against the truth and say that it is normal and inborn and not sin. It is the attempt to change God's truth into a lie that is fought and must be fought by the church. I love the homosexual, but can never agree with them against God that this is not sin. No homosexual can ever be cleansed of this unrighteousness if they cannot confess and say the same as the Word that this is sin and an abomination to God.

The church must be a place of light and not darkness. I do not believe that we have to choose between light and love. I do not have to support darkness in order to love sinners. I can stay in the light and love them by holding forth the light and truth so they can be free when they are ready to accept it.

I really hope that you hear my heart as I personally hate this subject as it has been so overdone in the fundy churches. But Jesus is my Lord and He is the Word so the Word is my Lord (not the Bible as dead letter). The Harlot compromises with the world against her Bridegroom, but the Bride represents Him faithfully. Bringing in mixture is not love IMO.

John

[laren]

All who eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, judge themselves, God, and others by this knowledge.

As soon as we partake of this knowledge, just like Adam and Eve, we fear God/LOVE and hide.  Through judging ourselves we soon hate ourselves.  In judging the hard world we live in we soon hate God.  In judging others, we soon become prideful.  Oh, if we only would trust in LOVE, we could come out of hiding, stop judging and start seeing we all are in this together.  

To be open, and to be vulnerable means we have to quit hiding, quit pretending. This in my opinion is only possible when we eat of the tree of LOVE. Love transcends all judgments of good and evil. Love realizes we are worthy not because of what we do, or don't do, or what others do or don't do, but because of who we are.

Trusting LOVE is so hard to do.  It's hard to accept. Our judgments of others in my opinion are a relfection/mirror of ourselves, and how little or how lacking in faith we still are in God's LOVE.

I read this the other day written by Kratos (John) on another thread, and to me it is so beautiful.



"I think that we see it backwards when we see the death of Christ as needed to appease God. It has been preached from pulpits for centuries that God cannot fellowship with sin because of His holiness. I am not making light of man's sinfullness or God's holiness, but when Adam sinned, God knew about it and still came looking for Adam to fellowship with him in His sinfull state. The truth is that if God could not fellowship with sinful man, He would have no one to fellowship with regardless of what those who think they have already come to sanctification might say or believe.

When man sinned and became aware of good and evil, it made Him instantly aware of the vast gulf between God's goodness and man's sinfulness. The breaking of fellowship with man was because of man's conscience. Adam hid from God. It was not the other way around. Notice what this verse really says:

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

The institutional church reads these verses and stresses that man's sins keep God from being able to stand to be around us. Even through the blood of Jesus, they say, God has to hold his nose to be around us. But what does the Word really say? It says that God's arm is not short and His ear is not too heavy to hear. The problem is not on God's side in our inability to fellowship. So it must mean that our sin does something to us that keeps us from fellowshipping with God.

According to Hebrews 9 and 10, this was exactly what was wrong with the Old Covenant. God provided sacrifice for sin to appease man's conscience so He could fellowship with us, but these sacrifices had to be done year by year because we could not imagine that the blood of one natural lamb or goat could ever take away sin. The Day of Atonement would finally come around the the lamb was slain and Israel felt clean before God. But, by the next day, they would yell at the wife or kick the dog and they would again not feel holy enough to spend time with God and would have to wait a whole year to feel clean again. It has always been about our sin consciousness and not God's holiness.

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

The Old Covenant could never take away sin. It only cleansed our conscience for a short time so we still spent more time feeling guilty before God than we did in fellowship with Him. But, Jesus forgave sin once and for all. He not only forgave every sin we have ever committed, but He has already born the punishment for every one we ever will commit. This was God's plan to perfect forever those who are saved as pertaining to our conscience which the Old Covenant could never do.

Unfortuntely, Mystery Babylon, the Harlot counterfeit for the Church, continues to keep God's people in bondage to sin consciousness. They preach the constant need to "go to confession" or to "come to the alter" or to "apply the blood" every time we sin. There is no ministry in Heaven of applying blood today. It was done once and for all, but ministers do not want you to know this. They want you continually guilty so they keep themselves in a job or they think you cannot handle the truth.

As a man sees himself so is he and as long as we see ourselves as sinners saved by grace we will continue to be a sinning church. But, if we ever get the Word in our hearts and really cleanse our consciousness of sin, we will be able to live boldly in His pressence and His holiness will become our own.

John"

For me, I am reminded of Paul's prayer:


Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,


Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;


Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;


Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,


Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


Laren

[reFORMer]

(This strayed from being about Mike Williams some time back and I have to acknowledge I'm on another topic.  I don't think this should be considered too contentious of a subject.  Our freedom in the USA may be determined by what the Christians do with homosexuality.  Surely you can see that by now.  Even if I tucked the word love into every other sentence, many would still not be pleased with what I'm saying.)

1.) I was born dirtying my diapers; but, I didn't stay that way.  I was born unable to talk and, if it wasn't for the help of the people who held me from birth, I might have never learned to speak  2.) I haven't ever actually seen pants with motorized zippers that spontaneously unzip themselves at the most opportune times.

To buy into "The Gay Approval Movement" there are two lies you must believe that contradict points 1.) and 2.) above.  The lies are:  1.) I was born that way so you must approve of me.  (To try to help me to change makes you a mentally ill bigot.)  And, 2.) I can't change.  Once gay, always gay.  (To even say I'm wrong and should change is hate speech and you can and should be arrested and put in jail [which I think as many as 27 states have approved:  Stalinesque thought crimes!])

Not only are all kinds of sin unique, each sin in every category is unique; and of course, each sinner is unique.  Homosexuality, certainly considered as a social phenomena, (and this isn't a complete list) involves lies against nature, destruction and distortion of personality, denial of reliable knowledge about God, Creator worship rejected, worship of the creation accepted, reprobate minds and, by no means a small thing, unthankfulness.  Lies and complaining are very typical of the homosexual nature.  For all the increased societal approval the suicide rate among homosexuals hasn't changed.  Even if they have to suffer a little to adjust to their assigned habitation, when people don't approve of the body God fashioned them to be developed with, they experience a deep seated rejection that is connected to not walking in line with the approval of God.  To misplace the cause for their lack of acceptance outside themselves is confirmation of their lack of maturity and persistence in immature modes of thinking.  True love is patient in rescuing ignorant and immature sinners from the snare of the devil.  Even the official Association of psychiatrists in the USA (that produce the DMA Manual, I forgot their name,) and they can hardly be accused of religious bias, report good success in sexually reorienting highly motivated individuals.  I'll tell you, one taste of the Holy Ghost and you'll be very highly motivated.  You'll do whatever it takes to have Him!

According to scripture, we are born under the law of sin unto death.  Through the death of Christ Jesus all Adamic humanity has been judged and executed.  "...If One died for all, then were all dead..." (2 Cor 5:14)  Homo sapiens, his world and all God blessed there is finished.  God will not go back and work with it to bring it into perfection to fulfill any plan.  The various sins disapproved in Adam are resolved by the removal of Adam.  There is a new creation in Christ Jesus.  The new man, homo novae, is God's chosen.  This new man is the Image and Glory of God.  God has determined this Overcomer will be raised up to inherit all things and in the light of its rising all thing are revealed.  The wicked not only don't understand, they will not be telling The Church (i.e., "The Ecclesia") what to do.  The Adamic creation must be subject to the superiority of this emerging new man.  This putting in order of all things is otherwise called "judgment." (1 Cor 6:2-3)  This is metanoia, a changed mind (translated "repentance") and the precursor of entrance into us and us into the immortal and ascended substance of the new man.  We will never embrace practicing homosexuals as members of the body of Christ regardless of any educational, medical, religious, civil or other authority's insistence that we must.  Just try to convince us that you were born heterosexual so you can't stop fornicating.  People who assert such nonsense haven't come to recognize faith in the simple gospel (1 Cor 15:1-7) is what can and does save us from any and every sin in order that we may receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and enter the glory of God.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit (enjoy the allotment of) the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators (paramours,) nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (catamites,) nor abusers of themselves with mankind (sodomites,) nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.  And such were some of you:  but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:9-11)

[Craig]

Precisely my point, you almost made the presumption to understand the motivation of my heart, and you would have been  wrong, presumptions can be wrong, even when applying church discipline.    I replied in genuine kindness to your command that I make my point.
Even as imperfect as I am I try to err on the side of grace. 

Bob

Glad you understood, I had to communicate my intentions, otherwise we didn't know where we stood. Been dealing a lot with people who find sarcasm some sort of good response and I find it very disrespectful and dissappointing, especially when they are supposably talking about the things of God. I make sure we are communicating and know our term and definitions.

[firstborn888]

Well, my views on this (homosexuality) will not endear me to some Christians, but hopefully, it will make a few rethink the subject. As someone who has studied human nature for many years - I just want to make a few points. These points are about homosexuality in men.

1. First of all, let me say as a straight man, the thought of two males together repulses me greatly. This was the case when I was a lost, very immoral demonically opressed atheist, and is still the case now. I was born straight, and chose to stay that way since the 'sin' of homosexualty was never a 'temptation' to me in the least - not while lost, not while born again. If something is greatly repulsive to you, it is not a temptation to sin in that manner - even if you are unsaved.

2. Again, as a straight man, I'll confess that the thought of two females together does not repulse me at all (at all: hint - hint). So, as a believer I had to learn to see it as an immoral and unproductive sin, just as a general matter of having my thoughts cleansed by God.

3. I have observed that in the church in general, gay men are judged much more harshly BECAUSE of the natural (not Godly - "natural") repulsion that straight men feel toward this. Male leaders are much more forgiving toward transgressions/temptations they can relate to themselves (ie: sexual immorality toward women). This is a non-Godly natural carnal inequity in dealing with sins. It is wrong, and is sin in it's own right.

4. I have known men who, mainly through childhood sexual abuse, aquired demonic strongholds that 'led' them into a homosexual lifestyle. When the unclean spirits are dealt with, I've seen them become free to live 'normal' heterosexual lives. In any case, there must be some inborn pre-disposition toward gay tendencies OR some kind of trauma as this behavior is obviously against nature, and goes against how we 'should be' physically and emotionally equipped as men to perform.

5. I have known other rare instances of men who apparently have female minds trapped inside of male bodies, or 'predominately' male bodies. What in the world do I mean by 'predominately male bodies'? Well, I mean, by medical definition - male, but (for example) with tiny wrists, very small waistlines, exaggerated hips etc. These traits are caused by genetics, not sinful thoughts/activities.

6. Okay, before you stone me - let me make a simple point. Some, people (Christians) say "No, God would never allow that! People choose to be gay, period."     
My answer is - ever heard of birth defects? God 'allows' them. In fact, there are rare instances of people born with BOTH male and female genitals. Who are you going to blame for that? Is such a person just inherently sinful to be confused about their sexual identity? Of course not. No sane person would make that argument. It's a *defect* - a result of the fall of man.

7. It's a fallen world - things go wrong. To say that being gay is ALWAYS just a sinful 'choice' is an insult to reason. Science has proven that some gay men actually have (physically HAVE) female brains. There are differences. Unless you believe that some males are tempted to be homosexual, then, after acting upon the temptation - their brains miraculously transform into female brains, then you have to accept that in *some* cases, people are indeed 'born gay'.

Why am I making this point? Because it's simple, observable fact, ie: truth. Of course, some (most?) Christians will try and refute the facts about this in order to totally blame an individual's homosexual behavior on their sinful free-will choice. It's as small minded as trying to defend God for allowing sin (or suffering, or birth defects, or ET for that matter) to exist in the first place.

So, am I condoning sinful behavior? No. I was born (read: BORN) with many many natural sinful tendencies which I have to deal with throughout life. I also have chosen (read: CHOSEN) to allow certain sinful behaviors to control me AFTER birth. Can someone who is born with sin be changed? Of course. Can someone who later chooses even more sin be set free? Yes. 

Am I causing people who are fighting homosexuality to stumble? I don't think the truth is a cause for anyone to stumble. As I pointed out above, we all have to deal with the cards that fate and destiny (God) has dealt to us. 'Tis an unescapable fact. I don't envy the road of a believer who is fighting homosexuality because of birth or trauma or choice. Just as I don't envy me for my horrendous lifelong battles, which have come from every conceivable angle. But God is good and gives us the victory as we face the FACTS of it all, not as we hide behind religious dogma.

Okay, last point. To all of us pious heterosexual clean straight people who were 'born' OR who 'chose' to be attracted to the opposite sex, or especially to some of us who were 'born' or 'chose' to be greatly over-attracted (to the point of obsession) to the opposite sex. Put the shoe on the other foot. What if you were told that your natural inborn craving OR your choice for the opposite sex was just wrong, and was an abomination, and that we had to lose that AND aquire a craving for the same sex? Yes, it would take miraculous intervention to do so.

BTW, the reality is that our out of control 'straight' lusts have to be dealt with by the same miraculous power of God. Our selfish, straight carnal nature is just as much of an 'abomination' as any other sin, sins that we were born with and choose and need a miracle (many miracles) to be freed from. Death will ultimately be the greatest freedom of all.

I really hope Godly sense and truth will be served here. Holy cow  :mshock:

Okay, let the stoning begin.

- byron


         

[bhark54]

To Reformer

involves lies against nature, destruction and distortion of personality, denial of reliable knowledge about God, Creator worship rejected, worship of the creation accepted, reprobate minds and, by no means a small thing, unthankfulness.  Lies and complaining are very typical of the homosexual nature.

Doesn't that list fit into many sins?

I am particularly troubled by the "lies against nature."  I do two activities that definitly go against nature on a regular basis.  I fly my airplane several times a week, man certainly was not designed  to fly, yet I do it.  Occasionally I also scuba dive, another thing I was not designed for.  I guess I am safe as Paul did not specifically name those as offenses.  I admit those are silly examples.  But what about using birth control to prevent pregnancy?  Surely that goes against nature.

My point is that once we start categorizing, ranking and classifying sins we end up with the same old Law and dead religous practices that have failed for all of human history.

Maybe after I have finished helping my lost sisters who are surviving by prostitution, my lost brothers who look for love in a string on one night stands, my lost cousins who live in a meth induced cloud, my lost uncles who stay alive by scrounging through dumpsters for food, my lost aunts who live lonely lives of abandonment... maybe after telling them that God loves them, just the way they are and that they already have a mansion reserved in Heaven, then maybe I will have time left over to scrutinize the sins of my fellow believers.  Then again, perhaps I should just leave that to the more spiritual mature among us as I wouldn't be any good at it.


To Firstborn888

Thank you for your honest post.  If the stoning begins they will get us both as I agree with what your wrote 100%.

That we give the Grace we have received is my hope. 

[ken]

Bob,

Your posts are always nice and warm and fuzzy. We all just want to love everybody. I whole-heartedly agree with you that the "the least of these" (meth addicts, prostitutes, etc.) should get front-seat to the gospel.

But it seems like you're determined to follow your own logic and human reasoning in deference to God's Word. I see comparisons and analogies born out of your intellect, but very little of scripture to support your beliefs. I could be wrong, but I get the sense that any attempt at using scripture to base a belief on is tantamount to legalism for you.

The Bible is plain that there are categories of sin, as well as differing degrees of punishment for sins, but you've shown in previous posts (and in your current post) that the Bible isn't an acceptible guideline for you to follow, i.e. "it's irrelevant because everyone wants to pick and choose what scriptures we want to follow," etc..

So what we're left with is your opinion against what the Bible says. All I can say is (and I say it with all graciousness and not out of spite) "let God be true, and every man a liar".