UR proven in 2 verses

[WhiteWings]

Matthew 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.

Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

The underlaying Greek word for the words highlighted in blue is:
622 apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
Meaning:  
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

Many English meaning for one Greek word. Just pick one you like because it doesn't matter at all (in this case)
Jesus came to save those who already passed to the wide gate. Those who already were apollumi.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

That was really interesting, thank you .

[Gab]

The Koine Greek of the New Testament really is quite a remarkable language.  There are no fewer than eleven Greek words translated in the King James Version to the singular English word "destroy", all of which reflect a different sense of the English word (to annihilate utterly, to make devoid of power, to lay to ruin, to demolish in preparation for rebuilding, to make lost, etc.).  It's for that reason that I always tell people that if they really want to understand it, go to the Greek - I truly believe that even the best and most literal English translation is just plainly insufficient for scholarly investigation.

[WhiteWings]

I just noticed Matthew 18:11 is missing in many translations....
Seems I have to find a replacement verse.... :sigh:

[Gab]

I just noticed Matthew 18:11 is missing in many translations....
Seems I have to find a replacement verse.... :sigh:

You don't have to look far:

"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses (apolesas) one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost (apololos) sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost (apololos) sheep.' I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." (Luke 15:4-7)

"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death (limo apollumai, am being lost to famine)! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.'" (Luke 15:17-19)

"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'  But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost (apololos) and is found.'" (Luke 15:21-24)

And then when he who was not apololos protests...

"'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost (apololos) and is found.'" (Luke 15:31-32)

All are conjugations of apollumi.

[WhiteWings]

Luke 15:4-7 => Doesn't have any conjugations of apollumi in KJV.

Luke 15:17/15:31-32 => The son returned by his how will/doing. That can easily been seen as repenting. I'm looking for a verse that puts Jesus in charge of the process.

Gab, I don't disagree with the effect/meaning of the verses. I'm just trying to locate a one-liner that clearly puts Jesus is charge. So Jesus searches the sinner. Not the sinner searching Jesus (repenting).
Surely the father was very happy when the son repented of his bad life an returned. But it's not direct enough for my purpose.

Thanks for teh feedback.

[Gab]

Luke 15:4-7 => Doesn't have any conjugations of apollumi in KJV.

Luke 15:17/15:31-32 => The son returned by his how will/doing. That can easily been seen as repenting. I'm looking for a verse that puts Jesus in charge of the process.

Gab, I don't disagree with the effect/meaning of the verses. I'm just trying to locate a one-lines that clearly puts Jesus is charge. So Jesus searches the sinner. Not the sinner searching Jesus (repenting).
Surely the father was very happy when the son repented of his bad life an returned. But it's not direct enough for my purpose.

Thanks for teh feedback.

I suppose you're right about the parable of the prodigal son, but the parable of the lost sheep seems straightforward enough.  What do you mean that it doesn't contain any conjugations of apollumi in the KJV?  Both the Textus Receptus and the Westcott-Hort New Testament are basically identical in content in this passage, and both contain the same conjugations of apollumi.

[WhiteWings]

I'm not sure what happend with Luke 15:4. I triple checked and no apollumi. But now I receheck it's clearly there....  :laughing7:
Good verse until... 15:4 .... sinner that repenteth.

I think 15:8 is a much better verse because noone  can claim the silver coin repented.

:dunno2: The coin didn't even make itself lost....

[Gab]

I'm not sure that the part where it speaks of repentance foils universal reconciliation - the main difference between UR and ET is usually one of when repentance can happen (i.e., ET adherents declare that repentance can no longer happen after death), not whether it happens, and Luke 15:4-7 clearly says that the shepherd goes after the sheep until he finds it.

[WhiteWings]

Gab, I agree.
I'm just looking for something that an ET can't wriggle out in some way.
I like the coin verse because the coin didn't take any action to be found (=saved).
A deeper thought is who lost the coin? The woman lost the coin. The coin was passive all the time.
Could the coin be predestined to be lost (and found) just like teh Potter made a vessel of dishonor?

[Gab]

Gab, I agree.
I'm just looking for something that an ET can't wriggle out in some way.
I like the coin verse because the coin didn't take any action to be found (=saved).
A deeper thought is who lost the coin? The woman lost the coin. The coin was passive all the time.
Could the coin be predestined to be lost (and found) just like teh Potter made a vessel of dishonor?

Well, I applaud your efforts, but I think that there does not exist something that an adherent to ET cannot possibly sufficiently twist to support their doctrines. :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: WW, I think there's enough in there to support that we don't even repent independent of Him putting it in our hearts to do so. I know I definitely didn't go looking for Him, He came after me with "guns" blaring, LOL. When Jesus said you can NOTHING without Me, He meant it.

The purpose of the HG is to take all men to the cross. Some go kicking and screaming, some go willingly, but ALL go to the cross, one way or another. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

Cardinal, I'm not denying that. I've seen lengthy scholarly books on the subject.
In this thread my aim simply is to find 2 verses. I had them when I started the thread but Matt 18:11 is missing in many translations. Now I'm looking for a replacement verse.
Possibly Mission Impossible  :laughing7:
Although I still didn't get the answer I was looking for it is still a productive thread.

[legoman]

Possibly Mission Impossible  :laughing7:

No mission impossible.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.

[WhiteWings]

Lego,

So simple and yet so perfect!
Almost identical wording to Matt 18:11 and listed in all translations :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

^YLT Jeremiah 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable -- who doth know it?

^YLT Ezekiel 36:26 And I have given to you a new heart, And a new spirit I give in your midst, And I have turned aside the heart of stone out of your flesh, And I have given to you a heart of flesh.

[jabcat]

^YLT Jeremiah 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable -- who doth know it?

^YLT Ezekiel 36:26 And I have given to you a new heart, And a new spirit I give in your midst, And I have turned aside the heart of stone out of your flesh, And I have given to you a heart of flesh.

:thumbsup:

[willieH]

I just noticed Matthew 18:11 is missing in many translations....
Seems I have to find a replacement verse.... :sigh:

As Legoman noted -- how about Luke 19:10, WW?  It says the SAME THING...  :cloud9:

The word LOST is also APOLLUMI... :nod:

OOPS... just noticed, you already answered him... :blush: -- its ALL good!  :cloud9:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[sven]

I'm just trying to locate a one-liner that clearly puts Jesus is charge. So Jesus searches the sinner. Not the sinner searching Jesus (repenting).

the sheep and the coin,

the sheep know they are lost but can't return on their own

the coin not even knows that it is lost

yet all are found

[willieH]

I'm just trying to locate a one-liner that clearly puts Jesus is charge. So Jesus searches the sinner. Not the sinner searching Jesus (repenting).

the sheep and the coin,

the sheep know they are lost but can't return on their own

the coin not even knows that it is lost

yet all are found

:goodpost: :iagree:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Got another accident. (I find most useful things by accident)

^KJVMark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
^KJVMark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

This one is less direct. It requires a bit more interpretation. IMO
I read the combination as:

^WWMark 2:27 And He said unto them, The Son was made for man, and not man for the Son:

So Jesus isn't about we reaching for Father.
But Father reaching out for us.
And that's a large issue in the ET vs UR debate.

PS: It not intended as disrespectful as it sounds...

[WhiteWings]

Psalm 49:14  Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

Psalm 49:15   But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

they:  They refers to unholy persons.
Psalm 49:10-13  For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.  11 Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.  12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.  13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.

redeem
Meaning:  1) to ransom, redeem, rescue, deliver 1a) (Qal) to ransom 1b) (Niphal) to be ransomed 1c) (Hiphil) to allow one to be ransomed 1d) (Hophal) redeemed

[WhiteWings]

Those that looked beyond the numbers in this thread saw that the owner of something is always responsible for what he owns.

^ACVExodus 21
33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit and not cover it, and an ox or a donkey falls in it,
34 the owner of the pit shall make it good; he shall give money to the owner of it, and the dead [beast] shall be his.

==> The owner of the pit has to pay. Saying it the ox's own stupid fault doesn't stick in God's courtroom.

God created everything. That includes:
- Serpents.
- Fruit trees.
- Stupid people that eat from fruit trees. (fruit is healty... :winkgrin:)

God dug a hole and didn't cover it. The stupid ox (Adam) fell in in the pit.
Pit = the snake that killed the ox  => God create the snake so is responsible for the snake killing Adam.
Pit = the poisonus tree that killed the ox. => God planted that tree and didn't guard it well enough. A pit needs to be covered. A tree needs a fence.
God owned a dept. He transfered the debt by "He gave all things in His (Jesus) hands"
:2c:

[CHB]

Very good analogy, I liked that.  :happygrin:

CHB

[thinktank]

Matthew 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.

Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

The underlaying Greek word for the words highlighted in blue is:
622 apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
Meaning: 
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

Many English meaning for one Greek word. Just pick one you like because it doesn't matter at all (in this case)
Jesus came to save those who already passed to the wide gate. Those who already were apollumi.

I looked at that word that says many now the thing is that, there is verse that UR proves that many in the text actually means all, but for some reason many is used. I think paul says many who die in Adam many shall be made alive, something of that nature. Garyy makes a case that many means all of mankind.

So if this many word here means all, then this Christ is actually staing that all of us are already on the narrow path to destruction, and the narrow road is choosing the path to follow Christ, thus many thieves and robbers came before me, but I am the true sheperd who gives his life for the sheep.