LOF,Second Death and the Unbeliever

[lomarah]

Okay here I go again...

are you willing to learn?

Yes I am! I have much to learn. Unfortunately unlike you I do not know it all.  :wink1:

True, you did not say that there is nothing but heaven after death for everyone. I deduced that since you don't believe there is hell or punishment or lake of fire after death then you must believe there is heaven for everyone. If you don't believe that, what exactly do you believe about life after death?

These (LOF/future TORMENT for sinners, other than yourself) are deductions of YOURS -- of HIS WORDS which do not state any such thing...

First of all I never said that I was not a sinner or that I would not take part in the lake of fire. Everyone will be salted with fire, including me. If the fire I go through before I die does not make me righteous then I will take part in the fire after death. (I should probably make it clear that I am not talking about literal fire here, but the spiritual fire of God that makes one righteous.) Secondly, Jesus certainly did speak of the Lake of Fire and torment for sinners: Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

If you believe that this is in the here and now ONLY, then that is your opinion. I completely disagree.

Again, you are more than welcome to plug your ears to what I say, and remain where you are, no sweat off my back! 

I am not plugging my ears, I hear you loud and clear! I just disagree with you.

Where is your answer to these words of mine, lomarah:

Quote from: willieH on December 12, 2009, 06:34:36 PM
The GOSPEL is a message of PEACE and GLAD tidings (tidings=CHEERFUL ANNOUNCEMENT --to be preached to ALL MEN) -- Rom 10:15 -- What is "CHEERFUL" about MORE suffering, lomarah?  What is "PEACEFUL" about MORE suffering? 

Yes, the gospel is awesome news! We will all be saved from sin through Jesus! Here is the thing: those who remain in sin are not at peace. They are currently suffering though they likely do not even realize to what extent. So to answer your question, there is nothing peaceful about more suffering, nothing at all. Which is why sinners need to be saved from sin and made righteous, thus the lake of fire.

(1)  If a reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York, and of the 350 passengers & crew, ONE SURVIVED!"  Will you jump for JOY at this report lomarah?  Will you give it your "good news seal of approval"?  Or is it in truth TRAGICALLY, BAD NEWS for ALL but ONE?...  THIS is a fictional parallel to your presentation of "GOOD NEWS"

(2)  if the reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York and ALL 350 passengers & crew, SURVIVED!"  Now a striking difference is seen here.  This is GREAT and WONDERFUL NEWS!  And THIS is a fictional parallel to my presentation of GOOD NEWS"

Honestly, which of the 2 is really "GOOD NEWS", lomarah?

Well neither of the 2 are good news. But certainly the second is better than the first.  :laughing7:
I am not sure how this analogy relates to what I believe... Like you I am convinced that Christ will save everyone on the "plane"...
I think what is differing in our views is our concept of salvation. I am assuming from your posts that you understand salvation as being released from the bondages of physical and mental suffering and pain, including death and sorrow. Am I correct?
I understand salvation as being saved from sin and being made righteous, as well as being freed from all of the above. I am speaking of being made righteous in a literal sense here. Not the whole "churchianity" definition where God looks at us and sees us as righteous because of Jesus even though in reality we are still sinning like the dickens. I'm talking being made pure and HOLY, as He is holy.

IN CHRIST -- that which is IN CHRIST -- which is ALL -- is "MADE RIGHTEOUS"!  For anything IN CHRIST (which is ALL according to 1 Cor 15:22) is thereby, "MADE" RIGHTEOUS!!

1 Corinthians says that all SHALL BE made righteous. Not that all are now in Christ and are currently made righteous. Take a look at the news headlines. Obviously we are not all righteous.

No man accomplishes this of their own doing!  Rather, it is the DOING of the Savior... and the Savior is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS

It is true that God works in us to make us righteous. However there are also many, many verses that talk about what we need to do in order to cooperate with God in this process: Paul said, "Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 Unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3. (Repentance requires effort on your part.) "If any man desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Luke 9:23 "I have not found your works perfect before God." Rev 3:2-3. If you need me to I can give you some more, but you seem to be a person who knows your Bible so I'm sure you know where to find them.  :cloud9:

You are yet to be redeemed lomarah... and so your vision is clouded somewhat by your own self deceptions... The Apostle John said -- 1 John 1:8 -- if we SAY we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is not IN US...

I actually agree with you when you say I am not yet redeemed. I never ever said that I have no sin in my life right now. I am looking forward to the day when I will be sin free!

That GOD is able to convert the LARGEST of MISBEHAVIORS of men, only shows the MAJESTY and the DEPTH of His LOVE and POWER!!!

YES EXACTLY! But until they are converted they are still sinners! I am quite confused as to what you actually believe... It seems that you think that all people will automatically be converted and made righteous when they die?

In saying the above, you set yourself a JUDGE of others... "Let him WITHOUT SIN, cast the first stone" ...do you remember these words, stoneholder... er... I mean, lomarah?

I don't understand how that is judging? Saying that having murderers, etc in heaven would make it hell is not judging, it is being absolutely truthful! You seem to be misunderstanding me, I have never, ever claimed that I am NOT a sinner, that I am NOT a murderer, adulterer, liar and every other detestable thing there is. What I am saying is until I am redeemed completely of all of my sin I will NOT BE ABLE TO BE A PART OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

Above, you call for JUDGMENT of the "BLACK SIN" of the murderer to be JUDGED by FIRE, and of course, ...your "little WHITE SINS" to be ignored because they, in your decieving estimation of yourself, are NOT as "bad" as he whom you JUDGE...   

:omg: WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS FROM????!!!!???? You don't know me from a hole in the ground, I could have murdered dozens of people! Here's your own advice, I highly suggest you take it:

Had I SAID this, you would have QUOTED it, ...however I did NOT say this, and thusly you were unable to QUOTE me as saying it...   They remain your words, not mine.

The TRUE citizens of heaven do not JUDGE, for they are commanded by CHRIST to abstain from it -- Matt 7:1 -- instead, they bring GOOD NEWS to the downtrodden of this life, NEWS that informs them that their SINS have been TAKEN AWAY -- John 1:29 -- and that they are UNCONDITIONALLY LOVED, by the ONLY ONE who has the RIGHT to JUDGE them -- John 8:10-11  -- remember CHRIST is IMPARTIAL to ALL -- If He had the chance to pass JUDGMENT upon one (woman in adultery) and He did NOT --- and Scripture notes that He remains the SAME -- Heb 13:8 -- YESTERDAY (to the adulterous woman) TODAY (to you and I) and FOREVER (to all who are walk the earth within the course of time)...

Nope he didn't judge that woman, but he certainly had some nasty words to say to the righteous pharisees and hypocrites and also to the churches in Revelation.

Read the list -- Rev 21:8 -- do you find yourself on it?  If you do, then you have YOUR part of the Lake of FIRE...

As I stated before, yes I am certainly on the list and will certainly take part in the lake of fire.

ALL are UNRIGHTEOUS lomarah -- Rom 3:10 -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- and ALL are partakers of the 2nd death... which IS the LAKE OF FIRE...

That is blatant heresy. Sorry to be so blunt but here are a couple of verses to prove my point: Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

To answer your last two questions:

As He "added" you, were you TORMENTED?  And if HE "added" you by HIS DOING, without TORMENT, how does He remain IMPARTIAL, by "adding" others VIA TORMENT? 

I'm not sure what you mean by "added"... If you mean added me to the list of believers I can tell you that I certainly WAS tormented and became a believer because of it. And no, I do not consider Him to be partial because of it.

Let me ask you a question... If GOD is IMPARTIAL to any person (10 verses say He IS)... then He EQUALLY treats each person.  So if YOU do not have to endure TORMENT outside of THIS LIFE... how does God maintain that "IMPARTIALITY", by TORMENTING others outside of THIS LIFE?

I think you are misunderstanding what the impartiality of God is. He is impartial because He loves all the same and died for all people. It does not mean He will not let some go through rougher times than others. Everyone will go through the fire that they need to in order to become righteous. He made each one of us and only He knows what each one of us needs and when.

Phew! That was longwinded.

[lomarah]

There sure seems to be a lot of opinions. :wacko2: :megashock:

What you can do is just believe what the Bible teaches however to be able to take that at face value one has to be cleansed of all the traditions of man that they have been taught for so long......... that takes quite a bit of scrubbing

We are all born into death (Yea we walk through the valley of death) and each man is appointed a time to die.......... that is our first death from beginning to end

Those who are resurrected in this life will do the "second death" while they still live in this body and in this life having gone from being "dead to God" yet alive unto the world but still in the valley having then become as the "lilies of the valley" that Jesus tends to (Lillies have 6 petals that is the number of man and they are white having already been clothed in white by Jesus)............already being resurrected and sitting in heavenly places with Him that happens before they reach their 'appointed time to die". (physical death)

Peter died this "second death" when he glorified God and then lived the rest of his life doing the works of God until the day that he died that was already appointed to him before he died his second death.

Regarding the appointed time to die is just before that same individuals "judgement"........ The author of Hebrews tells is that

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


Personally I have a more sure word of prophecy then those who just have "their opinions" regarding this whole event having already died once in a car accident only to return to life some 20 minutes or so later........... in between that time I saw what all will see when they too die......... interesting point is that it was different from what I was taught as a child having been taught like you that only unbelievers go to the GWT......... if you like I can PM the experience to you as I have it written out in my doc folder

You may do the second death in  this life but the LOF is reserved for those who have not yet died their "second death" by the time that they experience their "appointed time to die" that is the end of life as most know it to be........ IMO most will expirance at least some time in the LOF but foir sure it will only be those who live in Christ now in this life on the same level that the apostles did that will be excused from any "afterlife fire"

Hell is the fire that we are in now by our works and/or the works of those around us.... David spoke of it as where we "rest" if we have like all others have rested in our own works rather than those of God

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Blessings

Doug

Wow I would love to hear about your experience!

[jabcat]

Good post, I see things very similarly, lomarah, though I believe there's much we all still have to learn - glass darkly... :thumbsup:

[gregoryfl]

Lomarah,

You shared this with Willie:

That is blatant heresy. Sorry to be so blunt but here are a couple of verses to prove my point: Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I would like to share with you why I believe that we indeed will go through the 2nd death, and that these verses show that we have to. We have a physical example of this which explains this spiritual saying of Christ. Notice in Daniel chapter 3, the following:

Dan 3:25  He answered and said, "But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods."
Dan 3:26  Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the door of the burning fiery furnace; he declared, "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come here!" Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego came out from the fire.
Dan 3:27  And the satraps, the prefects, the governors, and the king's counselors gathered together and saw that the fire had not had any power over the bodies of those men. The hair of their heads was not singed, their cloaks were not harmed, and no smell of fire had come upon them.

As you can see, the same two things are mentioned here with regard to the fire they were in. The same is true with the lake of fire, the 2nd death. Everyone goes through it, but not everyone gets hurt by it. It does not have power over everyone.

Hope that clarifies.

Ron

[jabcat]

Ron, I see it as we either "die" now, or we "die" later.  I'm considering that the Lake of Fire will bring the previously unrepentant to the place of repentance and confession;  while those saved in this lifetime will still have some "waste" burned away (wood, hay, stubble) yet not hurt by it, as the applied blood of Jesus has taken care of the death issue for the redeemed.  Not firm on that, just sort of what I'm thinking right now.   :2c:

[lomarah]

Good post, I see things very similarly, lomarah, though I believe there's much we all still have to learn - glass darkly... :thumbsup:

:cloud9: Thanks jabcat! Can't wait to see clearly!  :cloud9:

Thanks for your opinion gregoryfl! I see where you are coming from, however I agree fully with Doug as he stated earlier:

You may do the second death in this life but the LOF is reserved for those who have not yet died their "second death" by the time that they experience their "appointed time to die" that is the end of life as most know it to be.

[Livelystone]

Lomarah,

You shared this with Willie:

That is blatant heresy. Sorry to be so blunt but here are a couple of verses to prove my point: Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I would like to share with you why I believe that we indeed will go through the 2nd death, and that these verses show that we have to. We have a physical example of this which explains this spiritual saying of Christ. Notice in Daniel chapter 3, the following:

Dan 3:25  He answered and said, "But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods."
Dan 3:26  Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the door of the burning fiery furnace; he declared, "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come here!" Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego came out from the fire.
Dan 3:27  And the satraps, the prefects, the governors, and the king's counselors gathered together and saw that the fire had not had any power over the bodies of those men. The hair of their heads was not singed, their cloaks were not harmed, and no smell of fire had come upon them.

As you can see, the same two things are mentioned here with regard to the fire they were in. The same is true with the lake of fire, the 2nd death. Everyone goes through it, but not everyone gets hurt by it. It does not have power over everyone.

Hope that clarifies.

Ron

:goodpost:

[Livelystone]

Good post, I see things very similarly, lomarah, though I believe there's much we all still have to learn - glass darkly... :thumbsup:

:cloud9: Thanks jabcat! Can't wait to see clearly!  :cloud9:

Thanks for your opinion gregoryfl! I see where you are coming from, however I agree fully with Doug as he stated earlier:

You may do the second death in this life but the LOF is reserved for those who have not yet died their "second death" by the time that they experience their "appointed time to die" that is the end of life as most know it to be.

IMO the LOF as it exists now is only a afterlife experience but as a "lake" it consists of many individual drops of fire just as a lake of water has individual drops of water.

Just as Christ is a many membered body so is the LOF but because we do not have any manifested sons at this time until we do it will remain as I said an afterlife purification process........ those who yield readily are not hurt by it just as the three boys spoken of by Ron while in the fire their bonds were burnt off were not hurt........ then on the other hand we see those spoken of by John in Revelation who will seek death but not be able to find it (cannot break free from what their bonds are) so they ask the mountains to fall on them to hide them from God's wrath.

Until we see the manifested sons as individual drops of fire doing God's work here on earth the LOF as remains an afterlife event. So for now we still see those individuals that threw the three boys into the fire as those in the world around who cause us to walk through the fire but who in turn were destroyed themselves for throwing the boys into the fire......... IMO that is also spoken of in the Bible when Babylon who held Israel captive but were then overcome by Cyrus and destroyed.

Same thing with those who have held God's people (us) in bondage to false worship (Babylon) because as we saw when Babylon was captured just the leader(s) died, For sure our old pastors and sunday school teachers will have a much harder time breaking free of the ropes binding them than we did so they probably need a little more time on the coals so to speak

BTW Moses walked into the fire without being hurt and so will others........myself I have always been a little stubborn and some of the purifying has been with a lot of discomfort  :sigh:

just my  :2c:

Blessings

Doug

[jabcat]

Makes a lot of sense to me - which may, or may not, be a good thing  :laughing7:.

[natcat86]

I always wonder why people take some things in Revelation literally and some things as figurative. For example, a phsical lake of fire, a figurative Harlot, a physical mark of the beast (chip or bar code) and a figurative 10 headed creature. I think if you are taking some things as literal and some figurative you should apply it across the board, otherwise you are interpreting it to suit your own ideas.

I have no idea what the interpretation is myself though  :dontknow:

[lomarah]

Good post, I see things very similarly, lomarah, though I believe there's much we all still have to learn - glass darkly... :thumbsup:

:cloud9: Thanks jabcat! Can't wait to see clearly!  :cloud9:

Thanks for your opinion gregoryfl! I see where you are coming from, however I agree fully with Doug as he stated earlier:

You may do the second death in this life but the LOF is reserved for those who have not yet died their "second death" by the time that they experience their "appointed time to die" that is the end of life as most know it to be.

IMO the LOF as it exists now is only a afterlife experience but as a "lake" it consists of many individual drops of fire just as a lake of water has individual drops of water.

Just as Christ is a many membered body so is the LOF but because we do not have any manifested sons at this time until we do it will remain as I said an afterlife purification process........ those who yield readily are not hurt by it just as the three boys spoken of by Ron while in the fire their bonds were burnt off were not hurt........ then on the other hand we see those spoken of by John in Revelation who will seek death but not be able to find it (cannot break free from what their bonds are) so they ask the mountains to fall on them to hide them from God's wrath.

Until we see the manifested sons as individual drops of fire doing God's work here on earth the LOF as remains an afterlife event. So for now we still see those individuals that threw the three boys into the fire as those in the world around who cause us to walk through the fire but who in turn were destroyed themselves for throwing the boys into the fire......... IMO that is also spoken of in the Bible when Babylon who held Israel captive but were then overcome by Cyrus and destroyed.

Same thing with those who have held God's people (us) in bondage to false worship (Babylon) because as we saw when Babylon was captured just the leader(s) died, For sure our old pastors and sunday school teachers will have a much harder time breaking free of the ropes binding them than we did so they probably need a little more time on the coals so to speak

BTW Moses walked into the fire without being hurt and so will others........myself I have always been a little stubborn and some of the purifying has been with a lot of discomfort  :sigh:

just my  :2c:

Blessings

Doug

:goodpost: I completely agree about the pastors. One man I know pointed out that they are likely the ones to whom Jesus will say, "Depart from me you who work iniquity..." and will likely have a lot of bitterness and anger towards Him because of that since they thought they were expecting a "Well done...".

This is very interesting stuff! What do you mean by manifested sons? Does this mean those who are purified?

[Cardinal]

I always wonder why people take some things in Revelation literally and some things as figurative. For example, a phsical lake of fire, a figurative Harlot, a physical mark of the beast (chip or bar code) and a figurative 10 headed creature. I think if you are taking some things as literal and some figurative you should apply it across the board, otherwise you are interpreting it to suit your own ideas.

I have no idea what the interpretation is myself though  :dontknow:

:cloud9: Personally, I always wonder why the first line is never taken seriously, ie. "The REVELATION of Jesus Christ." :dontknow: Compare with the glory Paul said was getting ready to be revealed in us, and Christ in you, the hope of glory. Blessings....

[lomarah]

I always wonder why people take some things in Revelation literally and some things as figurative. For example, a phsical lake of fire, a figurative Harlot, a physical mark of the beast (chip or bar code) and a figurative 10 headed creature. I think if you are taking some things as literal and some figurative you should apply it across the board, otherwise you are interpreting it to suit your own ideas.

I have no idea what the interpretation is myself though  :dontknow:

Completely agree!!

[sheila]

   BECAUSE HE IS GOD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH..HIS WORD

   DOES NOT RETURN VOID

   THE UNSEEN [HEAVENLIES] IS REVEALED AND MANIFESTED IN

  THE EARTH


   THERE ARE SPIRITUAL 'SORE'  STATES..AND PHYSICAL

    'SORE' STATES.....JERUSALEM THAT WAS..HER SPIRITUAL

CORRUPTION LED TO HER PHYSICAL CORRUPTION STATE

  THERE ARE SPIRITUAL DEATH STATES..AND PHYSICAL DEATH

STATES...JESUS SHOWED PHYSICAL RESURRECTIONS AS WELL

AS SPIRITUAL RESURRECTIONS IN HIS MINISTRY

   THERE IS GREAT PHYSICAL LAWLESSNESS BEING SHOWN

UPON THE EARTH IN OUR TIME..MANIFESTING THE GREAT

SPIRITUAL LAWLESSNESS AT WORK


  OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN,HALLOWED BE THY NAME

  YOUR KINGDOM COME,YOUR WILL BE DONE


  ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN

    THERE WAS A PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF 'COME OUT OF

  BABYLON" THAT SHOWED ON THE EARTH...THE SPIRITUAL

REALITY OF HIS CALL TO THE SAINTS...

   THERE IS A SPIRITUAL MANIFESTATION OF A NEW HEAVEN

AND NEW EARTH...I EXPECT TO SEE JUST THAT EVIDENCED

IN THE PHYSICAL...NOW THE PROBLEM IS IDENTIFYING THE

PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF IT ON EARTH

  LUKE 4;20   THEN HE ROLLED UP THE SCROLL GAVE IT BACK

TO THE ATTENDANT AND SAT DOWN.[REV 6;14&

2PETER3;10]..AND HE BEGAN TO SAY

TO THEM...TODAY THIS SCRIPTURE IS FULFILLED IN YOUR

HEARING[PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF HEAVENLY

MANIFESTATION] ISAAIH 59;20 THE REDEEMER WILL COME TO

ZION,TO THOSE IN JACOB WHO REPENT OF THEIR

SINS,DECLARES THE LORD . AS FOR ME THIS IS MY COVENANT

WITH THEM,SAYS THE LORD. MY SPIRIT WHO IS ON YOU AND

MY WORDS THAT I HAVE PUT IN YOUR MOUTH, WILL NOT

DEPART FROM YOUR MOUTH OR THE MOUTH OF YOUR

CHILDREN OR FROM THE MOUTHS OF THEIR DESCENDANTS

FROM THIS TIME ON FOREVER MORE

    THESE THINGS PHYSICALLY  MANIFESTED ON EARTH.

  IN THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH..AND WE CAN EXPECT

THE SAME AS HIS DESCENDANTS
 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!  :thumbsup:

[natcat86]

I was just wondering why people interpret somethings as literal and somethings as symbolic in the same book. Just wondering by what authority. Not accusing, just genuinely interested.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Some things literally happened for their time and season, some things are YET to come (haven't noticed wars stopping yet, for example) but ALL things in there have a spiritual meaning and applicable relevance for us today, as they have in any generation since He walked the earth. My  :2c: Blessings....

[jabcat]

I was scanning another discussion forum, and saw one of your posts, legoman...then came across this excerpt from the Lake of Fire series by J. Preston Eby...someone was talking (of course) about how they may as well deny God, etc., because they could just repent anyway  :thumbdown:.  Then the following was posted by Mr. Eby;

"There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually. Such people have no love for God nor fear of God, and they manifest by what they say that their professed serving of God is only a pretense, arising - not from any true love for Him - but from fear of punishment. If there were no prospect of hell these would promptly tell God to go to hell and they would, themselves, go to the devil. It is not thus with those who truly love God, for they serve not from fear, but from pure love and devotion. Remove punishment completely from the universe, and they would still serve God with all their hearts."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: EXACTLY, AMEN AND AMEN. Just like the Eve was taken out of Adam to show him what was in his stony heart, and the Israelites were taken out into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts, so too has He placed us in the wilderness to show us what is in our hearts and some thru the carnal mind's reasonings have made "peace" with what was revealed. Blessings.....

[lomarah]

He placed us in the wilderness to show us what is in our hearts

And how!  :pitiful:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lomarah...  :cloud9:

I have chosen a portion of your answer to respond to first, before I deal with it in detail...

REASON must be part of our SPIRITUAL observations of God's WORD as He instructs us to REASON with Him -- Isaiah 1:18

In just a few posts I have noticed MANY traditional aspects to your present position concerning the Scriptures... :nod:

As I said, if you are willing to learn, then new prospectives can come into your experience... that is ALL that I meant... I certainly do not mean to project to you (or anyone else) that I "know it all"  :wink1:  

Being that you are a very young person, it is more than possible that in my 33+years of study which exceed your age by several years, that I just might have some insights that you do not, both of LIFE (64) and of the content of the WORD...   :JCThink:

It is true that God works in us to make us righteous. However there are also many, many verses that talk about what we need to do in order to cooperate with God in this process: Paul said, "Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 Unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3. (Repentance requires effort on your part.) "If any man desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Luke 9:23 "I have not found your works perfect before God." Rev 3:2-3. If you need me to I can give you some more, but you seem to be a person who knows your Bible so I'm sure you know where to find them.  :cloud9:

As I note in my detailed reply, this is a subject large enough for its own discussion, so I will "zero in" on -- Phil 2:12, mmkay?  :laughing7:  (although I can answer every one of these above, and any others you might like to pose in a discussion -- start the thread if you are so moved, and new Revelation just might take place in both of us!  :boogie:)

Before I comment, it must be recognized by the SINCERE observer of Scripture, that SURFACE understanding of it, is LIKELY not availed as the SPIRITUAL understanding of it.  

For an UNBELIEVER can deduce (as have you), this verse as meaning that THEY (should they explore it from an UNBELIEVING viewpoint), must DO something in order to be SAVED... to which Scripture in MANY PLACES, speaks otherwise --->  

Our "WORKS" are FILTHY RAGS according to Scripture -- Isaiah 64:6 -- and the WORD also notes that there is NONE that DOES GOOD, not ONE!  -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- Rom 3:10-18 --

So the SURFACE thinking that "percieves" that WE can DO anything that "helps" our SALVATION to be REALIZED ("working it out") is refuted elsewhere, by the WORD...

Therefore -- in order for this "working out" of Salvation, there must be another understanding which coincides and HARMONIZES with these verses (which actively  REFUTE the SURFACE understanding of them), by CONCLUDING that -- WE must "co-operate" with GOD to be SAVED...  :dontknow:

That said...

FIRST -- SALVATION is NOT in ANY WAY, "worked out" by us...  This verse you pose to me, is better recognized to be a thought which conveys:  During the course of your life, in which SALVATION is being worked out -- Not by US, but by GOD... IN US... for SALVATION is HIS WORK alone -- Eph 2:8-9 --

It therefore behooves us to RESPECT His COMMANDS, that we might AVOID the FEARS which WILL result from SOWING to the FLESH... which the WORD also teaches... :nod:

SECOND -- LOVE casts out FEAR... so the "FEAR and TREMBLING" mentioned in this verse, cannot be the FEARING of YHVH who CASTS IT OUT!  

The SPIRITUAL understanding of this verse, cannot be as you presently percieve,  ...but is FEAR of something ELSE, and NOT "FEAR" (to be AFRAID) of GOD... (the Greek word translated "FEAR" in -- Phil 2:12  -- #G5401 - PHOBOS = afraid -- is the SAME word used in John 4:18)

GOD is LOVE -- John 4:8 -- and PERFECT LOVE, ...CASTS OUT FEAR...

It is quite CONTRARY to percieve that the entity which, ELIMINATES FEAR, is also proposing that YOU have IT, and practice having it, in order to cultivate a relationship with Him...  That is NUTS!  :wacko2:  

Something on the order of -- trying to put a FIRE out with GASOLINE based upon an observance that concludes GASOLINE as a LIQUID, ...and therefore it shall "put out" the FIRE!  :mshock:

So... the SPIRITUAL understanding here which INCLUDES FEAR, is better observed (IMO), as the "REAPING and SOWING" principle of the WORD.  

There are MANY things which contain SEVERE and DREADFUL sufferings within them such as the DISEASES, SORROWFUL difficulties in relationships, not to mention NATURAL forces which can also be enacted in our circumstances, and IS exampled by the FLOOD of Noah... (GOD noted that "said FLOOD" was enacted due to men, SOWING of EVIL -- which is TO the FLESH -- which is SIN)...

What we are to "FEAR" (or, be "afraid of" = PHOBOS) is not GOD... but the things which are drawn into our circumstances by SOWING to the FLESH...

As a witness lomarah, ...I am amidst a 2yr battle with CANCER... I can tell you that it is something that is NOT to be taken lightly.  As well as that it has caused me SUFFERING in MANY AREAS (PAINFUL surgery, radiation therapy, financial devastations, etc.)  I can also tell you that it is highly likely that CANCER is IN my life, due to my own SOWING to the FLESH, DURING it! :pitiful: Truth be told, I spent 31 years of my life , often "sowing" the wrong things...  :crywipe: (and btw to set your mind at ease, ...murder wasn't one of them! :mnah:  :laughing7:)

Science has noted for EVERY ACTION there is an EQUAL and OPPOSITE -- RE-ACTION... this is true in ALL aspects of life in this realm, which is the LOF...

GOD made the Natural laws to be reflective of the SPIRITUAL... In other words, those LAWS had better be respected, or they shall BRING sorrow into our circumstances, ...sooner or later!  The "sowing / reaping" principle can be seen in many ways...

FIRE for instance.  

(1) It is our FRIEND, found in the SUN which shines each day and WARMS our earth...
(2) It is our FRIEND as we cook over it, our food into delicious portions...
(3) It is our FRIEND as it burns in the FIREPLACE in its mysterious beauty...

However...

(1) It can be our ENEMY if we carelessly stand in the SUN too long, BURNING us... bringing DEATH to our skin...
(2) It can be our ENEMY if we carelessly leave our cooking FIRE unattended... burning our food!
(3) It can be our ENEMY if we carelessly enact the FIREPLACE which has not been properly maintained and can BURN the entire house down!

The FEAR and TREMBLING is teaching which notes that SUBMISSION to the COMMAND of YHVH and the TEACHINGS of His WORD, will ELIMINATE the things which FEARFULLY shall enter our lives if His COMMAND is IGNORED... and we... SOW to the FLESH!

DEATH comes in many forms... and on MANY LEVELS...  If you burn your skin, cells of which your skin is COMPOSED, ...DIE.   If you eat BURNED FOOD, there are carcinogens within that can generate CANCER... If you allow carelessness to enter your enjoyment of FIRE it can not only BURN your house down, but others could LOSE their lives in the process, to include STRANGERS (fire dept), which endeavor to STOP what YOU STARTED -- BY that carelessness... do you see what I mean?

You might say, that no matter what YOU DO... others might effect you by harming you... and this is quite true...

I would answer -- YOU do not have control over others... but you DO have control over yourself, to either observe and follow the WORD, or NOT...

If you JOIN CHRIST in His SUFFERING for the sake of the GOSPEL and of RIGHTEOUSNESS of the WORD, then this suffering is NOT to be FEARED, rather it is to be SOUGHT, for it is an ETERNAL BADGE of Honor to be counted IN HIM...

As PAUL (whom you quote above), noted of himself --  2 Cor 11:22-30 -- who also said of THESE SUFFERINGS -- Rom 8:18 -- that in the "big picture" they really amount to NOTHING...  :dontknow:

More to come...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi lomarah...  :cloud9:

Here is the rest of my reply to you lomarah...

This answer will be in TWO PARTS...

PART ONE:

Okay here I go again...

are you willing to learn?

Yes I am! I have much to learn. Unfortunately unlike you I do not know it all.  :wink1:

Such remarks are uncalled for lomarah... :pitiful:

I am as willing to LEARN as to teach... which is exactly how I have LEARNED what I presently know, even though that present knowledge is yet, by my own admission,  incomplete.  :dontknow:

I have made no such claim ("know it all")... You are new here... so let's face it, you KNOW LITTLE about me...  :dontknow:

True, you did not say that there is nothing but heaven after death for everyone. I deduced that since you don't believe there is hell or punishment or lake of fire after death then you must believe there is heaven for everyone. If you don't believe that, what exactly do you believe about life after death?

FIRST -- I believe the LOF is NOW... and is PART of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, the inner man, which is EVER with us, and shall ...NEVER... leave us (btw -- NEVER means NOT at ANY TIME -- BEFORE/DURING/AFTER  :dontknow:)

SECOND -- Who ever said there was "life AFTER death"?  That is UNBIBLICAL / LINEAR thinking.  There is no such thing as "AFTERLIFE" -- As is illustrated in the Parable of the Lost SON, the SON was... WITH the Father, LEFT the Father, and then RETURNED to the FATHER -- which means He came BACK to where he ALWAYS WAS.  That which is part and portion of the ETERNAL, means it has ALWAYS been. 

GOD notes to be ALL in ALL... He also notes to be UNCHANGING... so if He IS "all in all" then He WAS "all in all" and ALWAYS WILL BE "all in all"...

These (LOF/future TORMENT for sinners, other than yourself) are deductions of YOURS -- of HIS WORDS which do not state any such thing...

First of all I never said that I was not a sinner or that I would not take part in the lake of fire. Everyone will be salted with fire, including me.

lomarah... you are so already conclusive of me, that you note my words as accuatory toward you... They are not so intended...

I did not say that you were NOT a "SINNER"... I noted your conclusion that the LOF is something which FOLLOWS this realm, which is again, ...LINEAR or LITERAL thinking.  Any Unspiritual person (not saying YOU are "unspiritual") -- reading the words of the Revelation can easily come to the conclusion -- that the LOF is -- "after" -- this life...

The ETERNAL and SPIRITUAL realm (of YHVH God), is BEFORE, DURING and AFTER this realm... in other words SURROUNDING it... exceeding it in every direction...

JESUS noted this (before, during, after) in John 3:13 -- telling Nicodemus that --

''No man HATH ASCENDED into Heaven [future]

but He that CAME DOWN [past] from heaven,

even the Son of man WHICH IS [during] in Heaven"

This Scripture notes JESUS making a claim that not only was He PRESENT in Heaven as He PHYSICALLY SPOKE with Nicodemus... but He was also in ALL POINTS of TIME as He SPOKE -- Past (was born on earth), Present (speaking to Nicodemus), and Future (He had yet to "ascend" in time -- John 20:17)

If the fire I go through before I die does not make me righteous then I will take part in the fire after death.

Fire of DEATH?  Where does it say that the LOF is the "FIRE of DEATH"?  The LOF ...IS... the 2nd death... not the "FIRE of death"...  And where does it say that this LOF is "after" this life?  :dunno:

What the "2nd death" IS ... is Dependent upon your present observations of it, ...however, as CHRIST is REVEALED to you, you shall thereby note it in your beliefs... and that notation is subject to change as more REVELATION becomes available to you...  :dontknow:

As I see it... upon birth, we are CONCIEVED in SIN... GOD has thereby concluded ALL in UNBELIEF (IN ADAM [& EVE] who did not BELIEVE) --- which ("unbelief") is on the "list" in Rev 21:8 and which qualifies and SENDS ALL found on that "list" into THEIR PART of the LOF... :nod:

There is no Scripture that notes that ANYONE shall NOT experience the "2nd Death" [which is the LOF]... Rather, some will be "hurt" by it, others will not... This is the ORDAINATION of YHVH God... and is according to HIS CHOOSING, not ours... as HE WORKS --- ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11

(I should probably make it clear that I am not talking about literal fire here, but the spiritual fire of God that makes one righteous.) Secondly, Jesus certainly did speak of the Lake of Fire and torment for sinners: Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Hmmm... are you on this list, lomarah?  :dontknow:  And if you are (which you ARE), ...then YOU have your part in this "FIRE"...

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

If you believe that this is in the here and now ONLY, then that is your opinion. I completely disagree.

You are welcome to disagree... does not matter to me in the slightest.  God is the only one which can reveal ANY Spiritual truth... that you disagree with what I say, does not negate it in any way... :mnah:

The JEWS who were the BEARERS of the ORACLES of GOD, ...did not acknowledge CHRIST who IS the TRUTH...  Why should it be any different in this age, when the truth is presented to men, lomarah?

Let's take a few points in this passage and break them down, okay?

(1)  9If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand  Do you percieve these to be ACTUAL "MARKS", lomarah, as does most of Christianity?  :dontknow: 

This Scripture is noting the WORSHIP of the "BEAST" to be the fulfilling of the GRATIFICATIONS of the FLESH, ...and the "mark" in the FOREHEAD, are noting those as immersed in, ...CARNAL THINKING... which "mark" then results of that thinking, in the ACTIONS (i.e. mark on the hand)...

(2)  10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.  What do you percieve His "cup" to be, lomarah?

This Scripture is noting the EARTH, and the PHYSICAL realm [LOF] in which SUFFERING is ordained to be.  Which is part of the PROCESS of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- GOD is not prone to FURY or ANGER as are men... His "anger" is PURPOSEFUL, not to AVENGE or "get even"!  Men have FURY and ANGER, because their EGO's or positions have been violated -- which are VANITY... GOD has no such VANITY...  GOD's WRATH -- IS revealed (not "will be") against the UNRIGHTEOUSNESSES -- OF men -- Rom 1:18 -- NOT against the men themselves... it is the WORKS of men which are consumed by His "wrath" -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- GOD LOVES the WORLD, lomarah... He is not ANGRY with it... HE put us here... of HIS CHOOSING... according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE...

Let me ask you a question lomarah -- What did YOU decide concerning your life, lomarah? -- Did you decide -- Your gender? Your birthplace? Era you would live in? Parents? Siblings? Hair color? Stature? City or Country? -- Let's face it sister... ALL this and MORE was chosen by HIM... WITH the complete knowledge of that which we would DO during our course.  So WHY should He be ANGRY with us, if HE decided our complete scenarios?  Deciding our enviornments, our living conditions, looks, poverty or riches?  :dunno:

(3)  11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.  Am I correct that you percieve this to be a picture of experiential "torment"?

This Scripture notes that the TORMENT is that which is being destroyed, not the person.  We are ORDAINED to SUFFER in following the SAVIOR, for it is as I have already noted, the PROCESS of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- the SMOKE is a sign of something which NO LONGER IS, lomarah.  The knowledge of our SUFFERING shall be KNOWN FOREVER, for it is the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of YHVH... and His Children are AS He ...IS...

Christianity foolishly supposes YHVH God to self--impose a "divine Alzheimers" upon Himself, that He shall "forget" this realm of EVIL and all that occured in it... :rolleye: This all occured to display HIS KNOWLEDGE of EVIL, and the JOY of FOREVER is the CONTRAST to it...

Thinking within this shallow and Unspiritual belief, that DARKNESS was revealed for nothing!  "CREATED" to be "DESTROYED"!  How CONTRARY is that?  Please! :rolleye: This SUFFERING experience of EVIL, shall EVER make us thankful for its OPPOSITE!

Again, you are more than welcome to plug your ears to what I say, and remain where you are, no sweat off my back! 

I am not plugging my ears, I hear you loud and clear! I just disagree with you.

:laughing7: ...in other words, "plugging your ears" to what I say...  :laughing7:

Where is your answer to these words of mine, lomarah:

Quote from: willieH on December 12, 2009, 06:34:36 PM
The GOSPEL is a message of PEACE and GLAD tidings (tidings=CHEERFUL ANNOUNCEMENT --to be preached to ALL MEN) -- Rom 10:15 -- What is "CHEERFUL" about MORE suffering, lomarah?  What is "PEACEFUL" about MORE suffering? 

Yes, the gospel is awesome news! We will all be saved from sin through Jesus! Here is the thing: those who remain in sin are not at peace. They are currently suffering though they likely do not even realize to what extent. So to answer your question, there is nothing peaceful about more suffering, nothing at all. Which is why sinners need to be saved from sin and made righteous, thus the lake of fire.

No offense, but you yammer here saying nothing.  If your "Good news" which you present to the WORLD, includes a warning of TORMENT to come (which CHRIST did NOT instruct)... then your "Good news" is in fact, partly "BAD NEWS"...  Which includes TORMENT devoid of PEACE... for it contains conditions which are UNPEACEFUL... contrary to the words EUAGGELIZO and EUAGGELION [Gospel in Greek], as well as to the word PEACE...  :dontknow:

(1)  If a reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York, and of the 350 passengers & crew, ONE SURVIVED!"  Will you jump for JOY at this report lomarah?  Will you give it your "good news seal of approval"?  Or is it in truth TRAGICALLY, BAD NEWS for ALL but ONE?...  THIS is a fictional parallel to your presentation of "GOOD NEWS"

(2)  if the reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York and ALL 350 passengers & crew, SURVIVED!"  Now a striking difference is seen here.  This is GREAT and WONDERFUL NEWS!  And THIS is a fictional parallel to my presentation of GOOD NEWS"

Honestly, which of the 2 is really "GOOD NEWS", lomarah?

Well neither of the 2 are good news. But certainly the second is better than the first.  :laughing7:

I see your observation misses that, ...#2 presents a scenario in which a tragedy is avoided... concerning LIFE, which is the ONLY QUANTITY of REAL IMPORTANCE... which is GOOD NEWS...

The loss of the plane is IMMATERIAL and UNIMPORTANT, for all that it is, ...is just loss of MONEY... :nod:

I am not sure how this analogy relates to what I believe... Like you I am convinced that Christ will save everyone on the "plane"...

If you are so convinced... why do you mix BAD NEWS with your presentation to the WORLD lomarah?  Telling the WORLD, that they will be saved, but if they do not HEAR YOU, then they will suffer more, beyond this life...   :thumbdown:

I think what is differing in our views is our concept of salvation. I am assuming from your posts that you understand salvation as being released from the bondages of physical and mental suffering and pain, including death and sorrow. Am I correct?

No you are not correct.  The PHYSICAL sufferings of men are due to REAPING and SOWING to the FLESH... they have nothing to do with SALVATION.  Nor "paying for it" in any way... Concerning SALVATION, CHRIST payed the price IN FULL... Man cannot offer ANYTHING to gain his/her "SALVATION"...

FIRST -- I have been a believer in CHRIST for over 33 years, ...yet...  I am a CANCER victim lomarah... have been battling it for a YEAR now, enduring EXTREME amounts of PAIN and SUFFERING in that process...

SECOND -- Every man must meet his/her APPOINTMENT with DEATH...

I will continue this answer in PART TWO...  :happygrin:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi lomarah... :hithere:

PART TWO:

I understand salvation as being saved from sin and being made righteous, as well as being freed from all of the above. I am speaking of being made righteous in a literal sense here. Not the whole "churchianity" definition where God looks at us and sees us as righteous because of Jesus even though in reality we are still sinning like the dickens. I'm talking being made pure and HOLY, as He is holy.

HE makes us HOLY lomarah... no amount of lawkeeping or goodie 2 shoes... or suffering shall make us Holy... only the BLESSING of His Son's sacrfice on our behalf, which did not INVOLVE any of "OUR DOINGS"...

IN CHRIST -- that which is IN CHRIST -- which is ALL -- is "MADE RIGHTEOUS"!  For anything IN CHRIST (which is ALL according to 1 Cor 15:22) is thereby, "MADE" RIGHTEOUS!!

1 Corinthians says that all SHALL BE made righteous. Not that all are now in Christ and are currently made righteous. Take a look at the news headlines. Obviously we are not all righteous.

Your use of the word "CURRENTLY" displays your LINEAR thinking... for all that "current" means is the MOMENT of NOW. 

NOW encompasses ALL forms of TIME -- past, present, and future.

"SHALL" is a term, realized within TIME... something that is a "SHALL issue" is found within the FINITE realm and remains a "NOW" issue, irregardless of its appearance in TIME...

By the conclusion of the LAST DAY which includes the conclusions of both RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT... SHALL ALL be made IN CHRIST.

No man accomplishes this of their own doing!  Rather, it is the DOING of the Savior... and the Savior is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS

It is true that God works in us to make us righteous. However there are also many, many verses that talk about what we need to do in order to cooperate with God in this process: Paul said, "Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 Unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3. (Repentance requires effort on your part.) "If any man desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Luke 9:23 "I have not found your works perfect before God." Rev 3:2-3. If you need me to I can give you some more, but you seem to be a person who knows your Bible so I'm sure you know where to find them.  :cloud9:

It is a whole other discussion as to the meanings of these lomarah... but if ANY work of man, is used in order for his/her Salvation to be attained, then it was NOT due to the WORK of GOD... We can discuss these in another thread if you like, but your WORKS are filthy rags... as Scripture notes --- Isaiah 64:6 -- so those "filthy rags" cannot be utilized in "CLEANSING" of anything.

You are yet to be redeemed lomarah... and so your vision is clouded somewhat by your own self deceptions... The Apostle John said -- 1 John 1:8 -- if we SAY we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is not IN US...

I actually agree with you when you say I am not yet redeemed. I never ever said that I have no sin in my life right now. I am looking forward to the day when I will be sin free!

Neither did I say that of you...  :dontknow:

That GOD is able to convert the LARGEST of MISBEHAVIORS of men, only shows the MAJESTY and the DEPTH of His LOVE and POWER!!!

YES EXACTLY! But until they are converted they are still sinners! I am quite confused as to what you actually believe... It seems that you think that all people will automatically be converted and made righteous when they die?

I believe that ALL shall, ...IN TIME:

(1) Die -- FIRST -- (in the DAY of their sin) spiritual death, and SECOND - physical death -- which BOTH take place IN TIME -- Gen 2:17 -- Gen 5:5 -- Heb 9:27
(2) be RESURRECTED -- IN TIME -- John 6:44 -- John 12:48
(3) ARE JUDGED -- IN TIME -- John 12:31
(4) shall either bear their SHAME openly (as did Adam & Eve) or be CLOTHED in CHRIST -- Rev 3:18
(5) that in TIME ...shall ALL be REDEEMED -- for the LAST DAY is STILL amidst TIME, in which Judgment and Resurrection takes place -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 (in DUE TIME)

Does that help?  :happygrin:  What do you believe, lomarah?  :laughing7:

In saying the above, you set yourself a JUDGE of others... "Let him WITHOUT SIN, cast the first stone" ...do you remember these words, stoneholder... er... I mean, lomarah?

I don't understand how that is judging? Saying that having murderers, etc in heaven would make it hell is not judging, it is being absolutely truthful! You seem to be misunderstanding me, I have never, ever claimed that I am NOT a sinner, that I am NOT a murderer, adulterer, liar and every other detestable thing there is. What I am saying is until I am redeemed completely of all of my sin I will NOT BE ABLE TO BE A PART OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

The what gives you the RIGHT to displace others who have sinned?  Using the measure of YOURSELF (being a non-murderer), as the deciding factor?

YOUR SIN (and mine as well), is every bit as much SIN, as these ones (murderers, etc) you decree as "lesser" than yourself.

Above, you call for JUDGMENT of the "BLACK SIN" of the murderer to be JUDGED by FIRE, and of course, ...your "little WHITE SINS" to be ignored because they, in your decieving estimation of yourself, are NOT as "bad" as he whom you JUDGE...   

:omg: WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS FROM????!!!!???? You don't know me from a hole in the ground, I could have murdered dozens of people!

:Yeahright:  And if this were to be so, ...then you therefore, determine that YOUR presence would make heaven, ...HELL?  :laughing7:  Please, what a weak arguement you present, ...you have much to learn, young sister... :pitiful:

You have JUDGED that "murderers" should not be members of the Kingdom of Heaven... that THEY would make it HELL and YOU would not?  How can you NOT SEE that YOU are comparing THEM with YOURSELF?

Here's your own advice, I highly suggest you take it:

Had I SAID this, you would have QUOTED it, ...however I did NOT say this, and thusly you were unable to QUOTE me as saying it...   They remain your words, not mine.

I have not intended to misconstrue or add to your words, where have I done this lomarah?  If you name the instances, I shall either apologize or show you where you stated these things.  :cloud9:

The TRUE citizens of heaven do not JUDGE, for they are commanded by CHRIST to abstain from it -- Matt 7:1 -- instead, they bring GOOD NEWS to the downtrodden of this life, NEWS that informs them that their SINS have been TAKEN AWAY -- John 1:29 -- and that they are UNCONDITIONALLY LOVED, by the ONLY ONE who has the RIGHT to JUDGE them -- John 8:10-11  -- remember CHRIST is IMPARTIAL to ALL -- If He had the chance to pass JUDGMENT upon one (woman in adultery) and He did NOT --- and Scripture notes that He remains the SAME -- Heb 13:8 -- YESTERDAY (to the adulterous woman) TODAY (to you and I) and FOREVER (to all who are walk the earth within the course of time)...

Nope he didn't judge that woman, but he certainly had some nasty words to say to the righteous pharisees and hypocrites and also to the churches in Revelation.

You sidestep the issue presented with this comment...

CHRIST said NOTHING "nasty"... He spoke the TRUTH to them, as do I to you, to which they "plugged their ears"... and CHRIST noted the defiled state of their teachings to them...

As far as the "churches" in Revelation... These are ALL applicable to ALL men... so where you see critcisms of any given church, then it is a criticism of YOU and I... as well as everyone else.  These criticisms are not NASTY at all... they are pointing out the smudges on our faces... which are in need of addressing.

Read the list -- Rev 21:8 -- do you find yourself on it?  If you do, then you have YOUR part of the Lake of FIRE...

As I stated before, yes I am certainly on the list and will certainly take part in the lake of fire.

Good for you... You are having your "PART" as we speak...  :laughing7:

ALL are UNRIGHTEOUS lomarah -- Rom 3:10 -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- and ALL are partakers of the 2nd death... which IS the LAKE OF FIRE...

That is blatant heresy. Sorry to be so blunt but here are a couple of verses to prove my point: Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

What "heresy"?  It just says that "he that overcomes will not be hurt" by it... it does not say that he that "overcomes" will not have his/her part in it... (the 2nd Death which = LOF -- Rev 20:14)

This verse does NOT say that ALL shall not take part... and the Scriptures state ALL are UNRIGHTEOUS as I have already noted... :nod:

This verse does NOT prove your point!

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Again you fail.  This verse states the 2nd Death will have NO POWER over them, it does NOT SAY that they shall NOT endure it, traverse it, experience it...  :dontknow:

This verse also does NOT prove your point!  :laughing7:

As He "added" you, were you TORMENTED?  And if HE "added" you by HIS DOING, without TORMENT, how does He remain IMPARTIAL, by "adding" others VIA TORMENT? 

I'm not sure what you mean by "added"... If you mean added me to the list of believers I can tell you that I certainly WAS tormented and became a believer because of it. And no, I do not consider Him to be partial because of it.

Hmmm...  :Chinscratch:

FIRST -- Yes, I DO mean "added" to the Church... as a believer... :nod:

SECOND -- In what way were you TORMENTED in order to be
"added", lomarah? 

And if so... in order to be IMPARTIAL, He must deal with ALL in the same manner (same "torment"" as YOU recieved). 

If YOU were NOT TORMENTED by FIRE in your "addition" to the believers, ...then ALL others must NOT be TORMENTED by FIRE either, in their "addition" to the believers...

Let me ask you a question... If GOD is IMPARTIAL to any person (10 verses say He IS)... then He EQUALLY treats each person.  So if YOU do not have to endure TORMENT outside of THIS LIFE... how does God maintain that "IMPARTIALITY", by TORMENTING others outside of THIS LIFE?

I think you are misunderstanding what the impartiality of God is. He is impartial because He loves all the same and died for all people. It does not mean He will not let some go through rougher times than others. Everyone will go through the fire that they need to in order to become righteous. He made each one of us and only He knows what each one of us needs and when.

I think it is YOU which misunderstand the word IMPARTIAL... let me provide its definition:



Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: im·par·tial
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)im-ˈpär-shəl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1587
: not partial or biased : treating or affecting all equally



Does that help any?  :laughing7:

You use your own life to measure others, and to measure the process of GOD... concluding that some will recieve DIFFERENT from Him than others... which DENIES IMPARTIALITY... it instead, displays FAVORITISM...  :Whistle:

IMPARTIALITY means EQUAL TREATMENT to ALL...  It is NOT a variable as you erringly suppose.  If I claim that I am IMPARTIAL in my treatment of YOU and ALL others, then I must TREAT YOU ALL the SAME...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Chris]

I hear you, Willie!!  :thumbsup:

I've been participating in another forum on the subject of hell over the last several days and was just wondering to myself earlier, as I vacuumed, why is it that people don't think that THIS LIFE is "hell" enough.  :Shoot:

Trying to remember back to just exactly when I began to see judgment as "now" rather than "later" and I honesty can't recall. But I think that it began not long after (or within about a year or so of) coming to see universal salvation as the truth and that was in late 2004.

The first thing that I began to question was the teaching of more than one resurrection, with the resurrection of the just taking place "first", followed by the "thousand year" reign of Christ and then the "second" resurrection. I began to ask myself why it was that I was claiming that the elect ("just") are resurrected "first" when Christ said that in the time of harvest he would send forth His angels, telling them "gather ye FIRST THE TARES".  :Chinscratch:

Then I began to wonder why I (like so many) never bothered to count the resurrection of Christ as "the first".  :Whistle:

Then the words of Christ to Martha suddenly stood out to me (as did her words to Him). When Christ said that her brother would rise again, Martha said that she KNEW this; that she KNEW that he would rise again "in the resurrection at the last day" (sounded pretty familiar to what I, myself, "knew", right?  :happygrin:) I never really paid that much attention to the significance of Christ's response:

Joh 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

He ~IS~ the resurrection and the life.... and HE was standing right THERE... and HE said to Lazarus COME FORTH!! And Lazarus CAME FORTH out of his grave, having been bound hand and foot with grave-clothes, he was LOOSED at the command of the Lord!!

Because Jesus Christ ~IS~ THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE, even THE FIRST-fruits of them that slept, it is (Paul said) the power OF ~HIS~ RESURRECTION that we are to strive to KNOW... as BLESSED AND HOLY is he that hath PART IN the FIRST resurrection.  :boogie:

Then all kinds of other things began to stand out to me. The field being WHITE, ALREADY to harvest.... WHO he sent TO REAP (the reapers being THE ANGELS).

Suddenly I realized that Heb 9:27 wasn't about MY death or the death OF MEN at ALL. Judgment does not follow OUR death, it is by the death of Christ that we ARE JUDGED.

Heb 9:24-28  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

CHRIST came ONCE TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) but AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT!

I will not leave you comfortless, I WILL COME TO YOU!!! And in that day you shall know that I am in the Father and He in Me and I IN YOU. CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY!!  :angel5:

Then I began to see who the "wicked servant" is and why and "what" he "owes".(thanks KIM!! And Graham, and Rosie and so many others, too, who sat with me and showed me and allowed me to share with them what I was seeing, too)

Where and how we are "recompensed".... IN THE EARTH... even INTO OUR BOSOM.

Christ said I AM COME TO SEND FIRE ON THE EARTH... NOW is the judgment of this world!

Oh THE HEAVENS (that praise HIM) and THE EARTH (that is His FOOTSTOOL); His FEET being as fine brass, AS IF THEY BURN IN A FURNACE.

Joh 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

The the way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH!  :Egyptdance2:


Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were cast into the fire BOUND, but because they walked with THE FOURTH MAN in the fire, ONE like unto THE SON OF GOD, they were seen walking LOOSE, and were NOT HURT for the fire HAD NO POWER OVER THEM!!  :declare: (and what happened to those who cast them into the fire?  :dontknow: Compare 'that' to Rev 11:5.  :laughing7:)

Our God is such an amazing GOD!!!

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.  :dbook:

:iagree:

Could go on and on  :laughing7:... but you are doing a far better job!!!  :gthumbsup: Carry on!!!  :wink2:

[Chris]

Ok, you did TWO posts in the time I took to do ONE?  :grin: You must be working off-line?  :laughing7:

I wish you could 'see' the formatting on this forum while writing/editing, before posting. I don't know HOW 'you' DO IT? IS there a trick to it?   :winkgrin: