LOF,Second Death and the Unbeliever

[ibelongtoyoujesus]

I was reading this (Please check URL below)
http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm
OR
search google for
God's eonian purpose by Adlai Loudy.

and it is written here in Chapter 19 on Death and Hell that,

""The lake of fire is eonian torment for the Wild Beast, the False Prophet, and Satan, and the second death for irreverent men--those not found written in the book of life.""
AND
""These Scriptures tell us that, after the great and small have been judged before the Great White Throne and paid their due, those not found written in the scroll of life were cast into the lake of fire--which is the second death. Now there is no need for us to incriminate ourselves by insisting on the doctrine of "eternal torment" for wicked mankind here, when the Scriptures say, unequivocally, that they are returned to death. Neither is it wisdom or reverence for us to seek an explanation of the lake of fire in the commentaries and philosophies of men, when God Himself has given us His own explanation. It is the second death, therefore, it can be nothing more than a repetition of the first, and as the first death was simply a complete dissolution and return to the state of unconsciousness, so will be the second death. It is never said to be punishment for mankind in the Scriptures. Such teaching has grown out of a misguided zeal of teachers in behalf of the unscriptural, heathenish idea of the "immortality of the soul," connected with a perverted doctrine of eternal punishment in a hell of which the word of God in its purity knows nothing. God says it is the second death. This should be final for all truth lovers.""

MY QUESTIONS

This concept of second death and the lake of fire is rather confusing to me.
*How is it that the lake of fire is eonian torment for satan,wild beast etc. but just the second death for irreverent humanity.

*If the LOF is not eonian punishment for unbelievers,then when/how/where do these dead unbelievers get punished?

*What is this scroll of life? It cant be the names of the ones who believed Jesus, as
only unbelievers are resurrected at this Great White Throne Judgement.So,what is its purpose of this scroll of life?

*And Could you also elaborate on the significance of death and resurrection of Jesus as far as the Unbeliever(who has been in unbelief till the last,or lets say the last unbeliever prior to consummation) is concerned?
Since, He had to pay the dues for His sins himself at the Great White Throne Judgement (Or did he? :dontknow:).Is it that God was conciliated to Him, but He was not conciliated to God.So,Jesus made the way clear on God's side?
i hope you get what iam trying to ask here.

I would be grateful if you could give me your thoughts/teachings on these.
And i apologise if any of these questions sound/are stupid.But iam just trying to learn and am in the beginning stages.

Josh

[ibelongtoyoujesus]

I did get an answer to my last question
:boogie: Thank God :Pray:
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/unbeliever.html
""Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation. Judgment is but a means He uses, a process which leads to the opening of the unbeliever's eyes. It does not remove his guilt or cleanse a single sin. That is done wholly and solely by the blood of Christ""

[lomarah]

Hey Josh,
I wish I had some wisdom or answers for you but unfortunately I do not! I am right where you are, unsure of how all this works. I had just noticed that nobody had replied to you yet and i'm assuming that it may be for the same reason. We can guess all we want but when it comes right down to it I think there are some things we may never know until they actually come about. What I try to do is just trust God with it knowing that He is Good and is Love and that He will always act in goodness and love.

Wish I coulda been of more help to you!

Holly

[lookingup]

I'm no scholar myself, but I will let you know what I believe about the Lake of fire in a nutshell.

The lake of fire is the second death, the last enemy that Jesus will abolish is death. Therefore there will be no one in the state of death

To me the lake of fire will be the vehicle used by God and His son to teach righteousness to the ones that doesn't learn in this lifetime.
To me this is the way that isaiahs' prophesy "when thy judgements are in the earth, the world will learn righteousness" comes to be

Just an opinion

                                    Gods' Love and peace

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Josh... :hithere:

MY QUESTIONS

This concept of second death and the lake of fire is rather confusing to me.
*How is it that the lake of fire is eonian torment for satan,wild beast etc. but just the second death for irreverent humanity.

Humanity is not "irreverent"... It is VEILED and CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF, by GOD -- Rom 11:32 -- GOD drives men into CAPTIVITY -- Jer 29:14 -- and at HIS decision -- John 6:44 -- is each one -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- redeemed from that CAPTIVITY -- by the CROSS of His Son, JESUS CHRIST -- Heb 2:9

*If the LOF is not eonian punishment for unbelievers,then when/how/where do these dead unbelievers get punished?

THIS LIFE is the "LOF"... And in THIS LIFE, are we punished for our indescretions, as we of the FLESH, REAP what we SOW -- The "punishment" is that which is availed in -- natural disasters [tornadoes, earthquakes, tidal waves, etc], diseases [cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc], sorrows [war, loss of loved ones, loss of youth, loss of ...hair & teeth! etc.  :laughing7:] -- etc.

*What is this scroll of life?

The "book of life" is the LIFE of the LAMB... the books that are opened before GOD [Rev 20:12 -- IN THIS LIFE -- are the lives of MEN who are ALL SINFUL and worthy of the appointment to DEATH... (isn't it quite interesting that the year 2012 is the predicted end... and Rev 20:12 is the defining of JUDGMENT?)  :mshock:

ALL men have an appointment with DEATH -- Heb 9:27 IN THIS LIFE... which means that they have been CAST INTO this LIFE... and DEATH is a part of THIS LIFE...

It cant be the names of the ones who believed Jesus, as
only unbelievers are resurrected at this Great White Throne Judgement.So,what is its purpose of this scroll of life?

IMO ...you are looking upon the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST who has no beginning or end, in CHRONOLOGICAL terms... such Literal and/or linear vision, will fail to grasp the ETERNAL which has no such literal or linear boundaries...

The JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW... CHRIST said so, do you believe what He says? -- John 12:31

*And Could you also elaborate on the significance of death and resurrection of Jesus as far as the Unbeliever (who has been in unbelief till the last, or lets say the last unbeliever prior to consummation) is concerned?

ALL begin as UNBELIEVERS -- Rom 11:32 -- then GOD (who ALONE is the Savior, not needing OUR "assistance" or "acceptance") rescues ALL one by one, in DUE TIME -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- 1 Tim 2:3-6

No man CAN come to CHRIST of his OWN DECISION -- John 6:44 & 65 -- Only by the decision of GOD to DRAG that one to CHRIST, can the CHRIST be REVEALED to him/her.  Only the FATHER is able to REVEAL CHRIST and CHRIST, the FATHER -- Matt 11:27 -- John 14:6 -- 

NO MAN can of himself, or via the aid or prompting of ANY other MAN, find the Savior OR the Father...

NO man CAN confess CHRIST as LORD (which is the saving word that GOD prompts, from our hearts -- Rom 10:13), except BY the Holy Spirit of God -- 1 Cor 12:3

So the answer to your question is ---- ALL are CONCLUDED by GOD, in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- (of the primary electives to the LOF -- Rev 21:8)

Since, He had to pay the dues for His sins himself at the Great White Throne Judgement (Or did he? :dontknow:).Is it that God was conciliated to Him, but He was not conciliated to God.So,Jesus made the way clear on God's side?
i hope you get what iam trying to ask here.

:scratchhead:  Not sure what you are saying... but might I offer to you, that JESUS Himself plainly stated that He did NOTHING of Himself -- John 8:28 -- which means that HE did not INITIATE anything.

I would be grateful if you could give me your thoughts/teachings on these.
And i apologise if any of these questions sound/are stupid.But iam just trying to learn and am in the beginning stages.

Don't be embarrassed  :mblush: ...new friend... :mnah:

The only "stupid question" is one that is not asked.   :happygrin:  Any question deserves an answer... for it is a pivotal processing element, within the way in which we learn...  :teaching: = :Book: = :teaching:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Barry DuPont]

Punishment exists in the consience though the understanding of the knowledge of good and evil that does not see the unconditional love of God.

The lake of fire is the catastrophic end of the old covenant in AD 70 which convicted those under the law and thus in their conscience of being abandoned and forsaken by God. Thus they failed to have obtained a clear consience through the knowledge of God's grace as Christ had taken on this upon himself saying "my God my God why have you forsaken me?"   

JMO
Blessings Barry

[IceDash]

lol willieH.

Rev. 20:12...I didn't see that coming, the number, I was like "oh that 2012?!" lol creep me out...

however, I failed to see what you explain about the punishment we get here but how come the most evil one like Castro, Hitler or Al Gore (he believe in killing 50% of population will save the earth) doesn't get any punishment, while good people get more often?!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi IceDash...  :happygrin:

lol willieH.

Rev. 20:12...I didn't see that coming, the number, I was like "oh that 2012?!" lol creep me out...

Just noticed these numbers as alike... wasn't trying to state unequivocally that they are truly connected...  :laughing7: ...However interestingly enough, ..the WORD says no man knows the DAY or the HOUR, ...but doesn't say ANYTHING about, men "knowing" the YEAR"...   :dontknow:

however, I failed to see what you explain about the punishment we get here

One must relate to GOD and His doings with REASON... for He INSTRUCTS us to do so:  Isaiah 1:18

Why do you think such MULTITUDES of sorrow exist in this life I-D?  What REASON is found in them, I-D?

Why are there SO MANY MANY ways that we can SUFFER?  Why are there SO MANY MANY ways we can experience SORROW?  Is it just for the "fun of it"?  :mshock: What REASON is found in them?

And once we traverse this life, which is laden with disappointment, suffering, and loss... to say that we are only to recieve EVEN MORE afterwards? -- :mshock: -- IMO such is not only UNREASONABLE... but hardly PORTRAYS God as "of" PEACE, nor "of" LOVE, nor "of" COMPASSION...

It paints a picture of a COSMIC BULLY... that hardly deals in any of those...  :sigh:

but how come the most evil one like Castro, Hitler or Al Gore (he believe in killing 50% of population will save the earth) doesn't get any punishment, while good people get more often?

:omg:  ANY?

FIRST -- GOD decided that the DESTRUCTION of 99%+ of the population of the Earth was in order via the FLOOD!  Shall you decide that GOD is haywire in the same way you percieve AL GORE?  :wacko2:

SECOND -- If you do NOT KNOW all the details of sorrow and joy and PUNISHMENT ...associated with CASTRO, HITLER and AL GORE (which you DO NOT), ...then your observation of ALL of them is VASTLY INCOMPLETE.

Btw... PAUL was INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit, to name HIMSELF as "chief of sinners"... a title neither Hitler, Castro or Gore are due.  :dontknow: -- 1 Tim 1:18

How can YOU say (with such a hearsay-ridden, surface observation of these men) that these men did not recieve GOD's decided punishments within their lifetimes?  Without a complete observation of their entire lives, you therefore speak as one UNINFORMED.

This is like going to ONE baseball game and seeing a particular player hit a home run, and then deducing from this observation, that he does so (hits a home run) in EVERY GAME he plays... :prankster:

ALL "punishments" are not administered PHYSICALLY, and "sorrow" (which is opposite of JOY), OFTEN is much harder to deal with in the SPIRIT, than it is in the PHYSICAL...

PHYSICAL --- I can get a BROKEN ARM, and in a few months get over it, however...

SPIRITUAL --- I might get a BROKEN HEART and live 50 years with that BROKEN HEART, never getting over it!

Though we are somewhat aware of the PHYSICAL sorrows Hitler caused in his lifetime, ...Only God knows the SPIRITUAL sorrows he might have experienced in his lifetime, which were due him for those earthly indescretions...  :dontknow:

You are welcome to your opinion bro, ...but in the end, that is all that it is...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[lomarah]

willieH I totally get what you are trying to say regarding spiritual sorrows and punishments in this life. I agree with you on the fact that our sorrows here are most definitely part of the fire that is to perfect and shape us. However I also believe that some will need more than just the fire they had in this life to become righteous, thus the second death. Of course, neither of us can be 100% sure, we are both just guessing. So I guess we'll see who's right on the other side.  :happygrin:  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi lomarah  :cloud9:

I make a recommendation (below that follows logic and REASON) that you reconsider your position below (which is that there is MORE TORMENT to come for some)...

willieH I totally get what you are trying to say regarding spiritual sorrows and punishments in this life. I agree with you on the fact that our sorrows here are most definitely part of the fire that is to perfect and shape us.

God instructs us to REASON bro -- Isaiah 1:18 -- And there is NO REASON found in a lifetime FULL of various TORMENTS, followed by another (undetermined) period of TORMENT... within a message [GOSPEL] that is BIBLICALLY described as CHEERFUL, GLAD, and GOOD... :mnah:

If the PRICE has been FULLY PAID for ALL... (which it has -- Heb 2:9/tasted death for all -- 1 Tim 2:3-6/ransom for all -- 1 Cor 6:19-20/bought with a price) -- then what REASON is found in further TORMENT? 

Rev 3:18 suggests that SHAME of NAKEDNESS is that which finds itself outside the CLOTHING of CHRIST, ...NOT... Additional "torment by FIRE".

The GOSPEL is intended to be preached to EVERY CREATURE -- Mark 16:15 -- What PEACE is found in TORMENT, lomarah?  FEAR is the basis of a message of TORMENT, and there is NO FEAR in LOVE -- 1 John 4:18 -- any message containing FEAR is NOT a message of LOVE, for there is TORMENT -- in FEAR!

The GOSPEL is a message of PEACE and GLAD tidings (tidings=CHEERFUL ANNOUNCEMENT --to be preached to ALL MEN) -- Rom 10:15 -- What is "CHEERFUL" about MORE suffering, lomarah?  What is "PEACEFUL" about MORE suffering?  :dontknow:

However I also believe that some will need more than just the fire they had in this life to become righteous, thus the second death.

You are welcome to your observation which [IMO] is devoid of REASON... Because anyone "BELIEVES" something, does NOT make it so.  The "belief" must be aligned with REASON and founded within the WORD, according to REASON.

It is UNREASONABLE that Christianity brings a message to the WORLD that GOD so LOVES, Which says -- Hey friend... I have GOOD NEWS!!! God LOVES you SO MUCH... and ...IF... [condition] YOU believe, then YOU will be saved torment, however... if you do NOT believe, then you will endure further UNENDING torment [or as some UR proponents present -- UNDETERMINED duration of torment]  ...AFTER you are done with THIS LIFE's torment.   :mshock: :rolleye:

:omg:  There are 2 things REALLY wrong with this proposition, which [some UR and ALL ET] "Christianity" brings to the WORLD that GOD so [ETERNALLY] LOVES... 

(1) this message is based upon an individual's observation which is potentially INCORRECT, and

(2) it is delivering OTHER than just, "GOOD NEWS", so introducing it as "GOOD NEWS" is a lie... for torment in ANY duration, is NEVER "GOOD NEWS"...

Let me ask you a question... If GOD is IMPARTIAL to any person (10 verses say He IS)... then He EQUALLY treats each person.  So if YOU do not have to endure TORMENT outside of THIS LIFE... how does God maintain that "IMPARTIALITY", by TORMENTING others outside of THIS LIFE?

YOU are not the cause of YOUR CONVERSION -- John 6:44 -- John 14:6 -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- GOD added you to "His roster", the church -- [1 Tim 2:6/in DUE TIME] -- Acts 2:47

As He "added" you, were you TORMENTED?  And if HE "added" you by HIS DOING, without TORMENT, how does He remain IMPARTIAL, by "adding" others VIA TORMENT?  :mshock:

Of course, neither of us can be 100% sure, we are both just guessing.

You are welcome to percieve the GOSPEL as you do... No offense intended dear one, but ...IMO, you erringly percieve the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- and thusly bring a message to others, which is NOT GOOD news... for it contains SORROW for MANY.  So sorry, but SORROW is NOT GOOD NEWS... :mnah:

YOU can only speak for yourself lomarah... by your own admission, you are "GUESSING" that your "belief" is "on-point"...

Unlike yourself, I am NOT "GUESSING"... with Scriptural proof ...I am confidently, AND WITH REASON, explaining the TRUTH of the GOSPEL of PEACE... Which is COMPLETELY DEVOID of BAD NEWS... (NO FEAR, or TORMENT arising FROM it)

The GOSPEL (euaggelizo) of PEACE, is NOT a "FORKED TONGUE" message (containing a mixture of GOOD & BAD news)... It is EXCLUSIVELY --- GOOD NEWS [euaggelizo=GLAD/GOOD news]!

So I guess we'll see who's right on the other side.  :happygrin:  :cloud9:

Again, you are found "guessing"...  :sigh:  Is THAT the way the followers of CHRIST are to proceed?  Telling others, that they THINK that JESUS is the Savior?  Hoping they have "guessed" correctly?  Is that how the Apostles proceeded, lomarah?  Or did they IN CONFIDENCE, deliver the TRUTH of the LOVE of GOD for the WORLD?  Which IS, the GOSPEL!  :dontknow:

As I see it, and again, no offense is intended toward you or anyone else...

The only ones who are "guessing"... are those who have:

(1) Not LIVED long enough to KNOW what LOVE IS and what LOVE DOES...
(2) In that "LIVING", have NOT devoted themselves to a diligent search of the WORD, and compared the teachings of the WORD concerning LOVE, to the presence of LOVE in their own LIFE EXPERIENCE.
(3) Are proceeding according to their own thinking and thereby "GUESSING", instead of founding EVERY POINT of that "thinking" upon the WORD

In this answer, I certainly meant no harm or offense to you or anyone else.   :grouppray:

We are approaching the conclusion of TIME... as CHRIST noted, we do not know the day or hour, but the SEASON of the END, is seen described by Him...

It is time the BELIEVERS of the GOSPEL, ceased "GUESSING" and began confessing the TRUTH in the SURETY of the ("KNOWING" not "GUESSING") EXPERIENCE of the LOVE of CHRIST, which PASSES "KNOWLEDGE" -- Eph 3:19

CHRIST noted in parable -- Luke 18:8 -- that upon His RETURN, that FAITH would be literally INVISIBLE... yet there are almost 3 BILLION "Christians" on this planet!  How could such a number, possibly be INVISIBLE???

Glad you asked...  :laughing7: ...It cannot!  :mshock:

The MESSAGE that "Christianity" delivers to the World that GOD SO LOVES, ...is FALSE, SELFISH and INCONFIDENTLY FEARFUL... 

It brings PARTIALITY (anti) FEAR (anti) TORMENT (anti) GUESSING (anti), ...instead of the JOYFUL, UNCONDITIONAL, UNEARNED, and COMPLETELY IMPARTIAL LOVE of CHRIST which PASSES KNOWLEDGE -- in bearing TRUTH in its PURETY, which is NOT centered IN SELF (I'm saved, YOU can be too), rather is an ANNOUNCEMENT that ALL are the precious CHILDREN of the Most High, and that the price of their indescretions in THIS LIFE, has been FULLY PAID!

If we would bring this TRUTH to the World... then GOD will "add" to His roster, as we do so... but as we bring "news" (a message) which is DIVIDED between GOOD and BAD... that negates PEACE & LOVE, by superimposing in their place, FEAR & TORMENT to come... then we thereby NEGATE the TRUTH by those FALSE TRADITIONAL teachings, which make the TRUTH of NONE EFFECT -- Matt 15:6 -- Mark 7:13 --

How MANY are teaching the GOSPEL of PEACE?  ...NOT MANY... :pitiful: 

The "MANY" are busy teaching otherwise -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5-12  :sigh:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[IceDash]

You was right willie, I remember Jesus said when he come back, will he find much faith? None. am I right on this?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi IceDash... :hithere:

You was right willie, I remember Jesus said when he come back, will he find much faith? None. am I right on this?

I do not think He meant none, but pretty darn close to it!  As His WORDS were phrased in such a way that if FAITH was on the Earth... that it certainly will NOT appear as prevalent!  Certainly not approaching HALF the planets population!

Luke 18:8 --  nevertheless... when the Son of man returns, shall He find FAITH on the EARTH?

Raising such a question shows that FAITH, if indeed it is present when He returns, it will most certainly be much LESS visible -- than 3 Billion strong! (estimated number of people that claim to BELIEVE in CHRIST today)

This is WHY He said that MANY would decieve MANY... and that MANY would call him LORD, and in fact be found in INIQUITY...

The varying sects of Chrisitianity propose that their section is the remnant which teaches the TRUTH... and yet argue against the principles of Divine LOVE which never change...  I spend many years in membership and affiliation with several of these denominations and the hypocrisy within them is just pitiful...

Each one of them, SELFISHLY claims Salvation for themselves... and each one is willing to condemn the others to FIRE... be it ET, Annhilation, or an Undetermined period... FAILING miserably to bring GOOD NEWS... only claiming their observations of the WORD of God as GOOD, not the message itself.  Assured that THEY (for NO REASON), shall be spared FIRE, but others shall NOT!

This is WHY, I do not preach ANY BAD NEWS...  Even brothers and sisters which KNOW the TRUTH of UR, defile in part, the GOSPEL of PEACE... are still willing to bring a message which "burns" the rest as [they claim] is necessary... :rolleye:

Also... the word FEW is often used relative to those which shall come to  KNOW the TRUTH of the Kingdom of Heaven... :nod:

I went to a hockey game last night, and there were 7000 people @ the game, this number compared to 1 million (which is a thousand thousands) is of course, miniscule,  ...and I can tell you, that the crowd at the game was certainly was NOT a FEW!  However... if only ONE PERSON in that crowd actually believed in TRUTH, the number BELIEVING "TRUTH" would certainly illustrate my point:

(These numbers are just an illustration) --- What JESUS was saying, is that if He returned today, with the Earth's population at almost 7 Billion people, which is 7000 million... that 1 person in every 7000 (1 million actually having FAITH in the TRUTH -- WORLDWIDE) could be called FEW by comparison to the other 6999 [million] that do NOT believe in TRUTH...  Do you see what I mean?

I hope so...  :cloud9:

My point is, if you wish to be a bearer of GOOD NEWS... then you cannot involve within your message -- BAD NEWS... mixing the 2 is hypocrisy as the Apostle James noted:  James 3:6-13

There was NO INSTRUCTION by CHRIST to bring WARNINGS (hell, lake of fire, annhilation, etc)... rather, to bring GOOD NEWS...

And in the INSTRUCTION to bring GOOD NEWS... He noted that JUDGMENT shall come against those who do not HEAR it...

JUDGMENT is NOW as HE stated -- John 12:31 -- and the WRATH of God in JUDGMENT ...IS... revealed (not WILL BE) -- Rom 1:18 -- and the "FIERY trials" are NOW -- Rev 3:18 -- 1 Pet 3:6-13 -- 1 Pet 4:12 -- The books (of our lives are open) and the FIERY trials and JUDGMENT OF THEM, are NOW...  :HeartThrob: (you REAP -- what you SOW)

...willieH  :cloud9:

[lomarah]

Hey willieH, I have much to say in response but do not have the time right now. I will respond in depth as soon as I get the time! I will respond quickly now: basically whether you call it reasoning or guessing, it's all the same. Every "Christian" gets their beliefs from their own interpretation of the Bible. You are no different. Saying that you know for sure that there is nothing else after this life but heaven for everyone is extremely presumptuous, especially seeing as there are many verses that would seem to state otherwise. In order to be a part of the kingdom of heaven mustn't a person be made righteous? Wouldn't the kingdom of heaven be more like hell if every murderer, adulterer and rapist were apart of it? Does it make reasonable sense to you that citizens of the kingdom of heaven would take part in these things? Yes, Jesus paid for their sins. That doesn't mean they won't continue to do them. What I am saying is, if a person is not made righteous on this earth then wouldn't it make sense for them to go through whatever they need to go through in order to make them righteous? (AKA the lake of fire...)

[jabcat]

In order to be a part of the kingdom of heaven mustn't a person be made righteous? Wouldn't the kingdom of heaven be more like hell if every murderer, adulterer and rapist were apart of it? Does it make reasonable sense to you that citizens of the kingdom of heaven would take part in these things? Yes, Jesus paid for their sins. That doesn't mean they won't continue to do them. What I am saying is, if a person is not made righteous on this earth then wouldn't it make sense for them to go through whatever they need to go through in order to make them righteous? (AKA the lake of fire...)

:thumbsup:  wood, hay, stubble burned...bringing to a place of repentance, every knee bow, every tongue confess Jesus as Master - in the Holy Spirit

[reFORMer]

I'm very thankful for this place tentmaker where we can search and be challenged to think, pray and come up with our own Scripture passages that we've found.  There are other threads, a very long older one on the "lake of fire' I read as we all shared.  I don't have any clear certainty on the identity of the lake of fire, the "amen," if you want to call it that. 

One thing I noticed is there is no place that it says people are in it.  An example is AV says, "And 2532 whosoever 1536 was 2147 0 not 3756 found 2147 written 1125 in 1722 the book 976 of life 2222 was cast 906 into 1519 the lake 3041 of fire 4442." (Rev 20:15)

Strongs #1536 ei tis Thayer's has if whether
The usage for AV — if any man 35, if any 19, if a man 8, if any thing 6, if ought 3, whosoever 2, misc 6

Most contemporary versions have:  "if," as does the exacting Concordant Literal

The point is, that "if" is never answered.  Perhaps the angels response upon being sent out was to write up any who had not been already written in the book of life.

Try to find any statement that says people actually go into the lake of fire.  I know it's a fine point, but I don't find any.

Here's another: 
Rv 14:10-11 (AV)...
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In English it only has "the smoke...ascendeth up for ever and ever," NOT the torment for ever and ever.  In Greek the smoke ascends for the last two ages or eons.  It is for "the eons of the eons," not for ever and ever (to add "and ever" to "forever" is redundant.)  It should be noticed this is not said to be the lake of fire, only that the same substance of the lake, "fire and brimstone," is what it is that torments them.  This is also only a select few out of all peoples that have ever lived.  It is in English "torment" which is mental, not "torture" which is physical.  That it is day and night means it could be for a minute at noon and a minute at midnight which would fulfill these words.  Also, "the earth and all the works therein" shall be consumed by an intense heat, so day and night are not forever.  There is more, but you get the point.

If you search out some of the writings on the tentmaker site you'll get answers for sure.

[jabcat]

I agree James, I believe it's spiritual, but still an occurrence (that at least temporarily will be "unpleasant") while the gates of the city are open day and night and the kings of the earth are bringing their treasures into it...

From Revelation 21 and 22

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
its gates will never be closed;
and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: This may sound off the wall, but I think it's both now and later, but that they (now and later) are the same. It's always NOW in the spirit. Our flesh is the only thing keeping us from perceiving the state of whatever bondage our soul is in, that the lake of fire is to deal with.

In other words, if our spiritual eyes were open right now, it would be no different than if we left the body behind in death. There is nothing in the death of the body that changes the condition of bondages of the soul. The spirit returns to the One that sent it, but the soul is another matter. My  :2c: Blessings...

[willieH]

willieH: Hi lomarah... :hithere:

Thanks for your answer... are you willing to learn?  :Chinscratch:  Hope so...  :cloud9:

Hey willieH, I have much to say in response but do not have the time right now. I will respond in depth as soon as I get the time! I will respond quickly now: basically whether you call it reasoning or guessing, it's all the same. Every "Christian" gets their beliefs from their own interpretation of the Bible. You are no different. Saying that you know for sure that there is nothing else after this life but heaven for everyone is extremely presumptuous,

I said NO SUCH THING as you PRESUMPTUOUSLY note above:  "there is nothing else after this life but heaven for everyone"...

Had I SAID this, you would have QUOTED it, ...however I did NOT say this, and thusly you were unable to QUOTE me as saying it... :pitiful:  They remain your words, not mine.

What I have said in this thread, is that THIS LIFE is the LOF... and the JUDGMENT is NOW... I also noted that REASON does not follow traditional interpretation of the WORD...

CHRIST did not mention ANYTHING about TORMENT that follows THIS LIFE (nor did He WARN anyone of "HELL or ANNHILATION or the LOF" -- the twisted UNPEACEFUL, UNLOVING, PARTIAL and SELF Oriented doctrines of DEVILS, er, ...I mean the "church")...

These (LOF/future TORMENT for sinners, other than yourself) are deductions of YOURS -- of HIS WORDS which do not state any such thing...

Again, you are more than welcome to plug your ears to what I say, and remain where you are, no sweat off my back!  :dontknow:

One thing that I DO agree with you is... we SHALL see in the end, which of us is preaching the TRUTH...

You are also welcome to naming YOURSELF as "guessing" if you like lomarah... But do not label me with such inconfidence.  I have made NO ADMISSION of "guessing", (neither shall I) -- YOU HAVE!

I diligently have studied the WORD... and no "guessing" is necessary for me.  You are welcome to ignore teaching... MANY will do so... and MANY shall find SHAME in their IGNORANCE -- Rev 3:18

Where is your answer to these words of mine, lomarah:

The GOSPEL is a message of PEACE and GLAD tidings (tidings=CHEERFUL ANNOUNCEMENT --to be preached to ALL MEN) -- Rom 10:15 -- What is "CHEERFUL" about MORE suffering, lomarah?  What is "PEACEFUL" about MORE suffering?  :dontknow:

:JCThink:

especially seeing as there are many verses that would seem to state otherwise.

The KEYWORD in your statement is "SEEM" -- which admits unsurety and  more "GUESSING" on your part...  :dontknow:

These verses in question, only state "otherwise" to those who have yet to have SPIRITUAL revelation OF THEM, be patient, and diligent, and you shall see in time, that these which you THINK to portray FUTURE torment, are actually speaking of NOW...  CHRIST plainly noted that JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD [which is in THIS LIFE] is NOW -- John 12:31 -- but do the readers of these WORDS believe them?  Of course they do not...  :sigh:

You will also find that clinging to your present "GOOD NEWS/BAD NEWS" teachings will bring sorrow and shame upon you.  For if you present ANY BAD NEWS within the "guise" of a "GOOD NEWS" presentation, the NEWS in part, ceases to be "GOOD", and the presentation becomes a FALSEHOOD... For it MISREPRESENTS the "news" as being GOOD NEWS... while in part it is BAD NEWS.

EXAMPLES:

(1)  If a reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York, and of the 350 passengers & crew, ONE SURVIVED!"  Will you jump for JOY at this report lomarah?  Will you give it your "good news seal of approval"?  Or is it in truth TRAGICALLY, BAD NEWS for ALL but ONE?...  THIS is a fictional parallel to your presentation of "GOOD NEWS"

(2)  if the reporter states:  "NOW for some GOOD NEWS!  A plane has crashed in New York and ALL 350 passengers & crew, SURVIVED!"  Now a striking difference is seen here.  This is GREAT and WONDERFUL NEWS!  And THIS is a fictional parallel to my presentation of GOOD NEWS"

Honestly, which of the 2 is really "GOOD NEWS", lomarah?  :declare: :Chinscratch:

The words translated "GOSPEL" in the Greek are EUAGGELIZO -- #G2097 and EUAGGELION -- #G2098 -- neither of these words by definition, portray other than exclusively -- GOOD NEWS... Look'em up lomarah... see if you can find your "TORMENT" message within their definitions. :rolleye:

I was pretty diligent and detailed in naming traditional CHURCH observations of "GOD the bully" (tormenting His beloved sons in this life, then more in the next) as quite inaccurate UNPEACEFUL, UNLOVING, and CERTAINLY NOT -- "GOOD NEWS"... you have failed to refute any of my post with your IN GENERAL, and scripturally devoid answer.  :dontknow:

In order to be a part of the kingdom of heaven mustn't a person be made righteous?

Absolutely!!! ...and ALL, ...SHALL be "MADE RIGHTEOUS" -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM, all DIE... so --- IN CHRIST --- shall ALL be made alive.  

Didya get that lomarah?  IN CHRIST -- that which is IN CHRIST -- which is ALL -- is "MADE RIGHTEOUS"!  For anything IN CHRIST (which is ALL according to 1 Cor 15:22) is thereby, "MADE" RIGHTEOUS!!

No man accomplishes this of their own doing!  Rather, it is the DOING of the Savior... and the Savior is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS -- Acts 10:34 -- Rom 2:11 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Job 34:19 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- Pro 28:21 -- Col 3:25 -- Mark 12:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- doya think GOD is trying to make a point by REPEATING this TEN TIMES in the Scriptures?  :mshock:

As I said, GOD is IMPARTIAL... If YOU were "made righteous" by the doing of GOD, without FIRE and TORMENT... REASON demands that ALL others to whom He states Himself IMPARTIAL, are due the VERY SAME treatment and process, as were YOU...  :dontknow:

Wouldn't the kingdom of heaven be more like hell if every murderer, adulterer and rapist were apart of it?

I say "on the CONTRARY"!  That GOD is able to convert the LARGEST of MISBEHAVIORS of men, only shows the MAJESTY and the DEPTH of His LOVE and POWER!!!

In saying the above, you set yourself a JUDGE of others... "Let him WITHOUT SIN, cast the first stone" ...do you remember these words, stoneholder... er... I mean, lomarah?

TWO questions:

(1)  Who do you compare the murderer to lomarah?  CHRIST or yourself?  

(2)  Who do you compare yourself to lomarah? CHRIST or the murderer?

If you have NOT SINNED in any way... then you would have the right to JUDGE a murderer... but since YOU are just AS IN NEED of CHRIST as the one you JUDGE... then you have little to say of (the ultimate, ETERNAL and RIGHTEOUS judgment of) his crime... and he must needs be left to LOVE to JUDGE him, NOT another "sinner" such as yourself (or ME for that matter!)... :pitiful:

Does it make reasonable sense to you that citizens of the kingdom of heaven would take part in these things?

You are yet to be redeemed lomarah... and so your vision is clouded somewhat by your own self deceptions... The Apostle John said -- 1 John 1:8 -- if we SAY we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is not IN US...

So if YOU say this thinking yourself to be a "citizen" of the Kingdom of Heaven... and Scripture notes that we DECIEVE ourselves if we SAY we have NO SIN -- then, are you not seen DECIEVING yourself?  Why should YOU a SINNER be considered a citizen of Heaven, and another who is also a sinner (you consider worse than yourself), NOT?  

In deducing by your observation (of another sinner, who is partaking of SIN in a way that you percieve MORE distasteful than that which YOU partake), you thereby make yourself a hypocrite... for even though your SIN appears to YOU to be lesser in your eyes, ...YOUR SIN was found to be ESTABLISHED within the NAILS that crucified CHRIST, as well as the murderer's...  :dontknow:  

So you and I in fact, PARTNERED with the murderer, to put the Savior to death did we not?  Therefore, why should his "pardon" which is ACCOMPLISHED and DECIDED by GOD (who is IMPARTIAL) come at any greater cost to him, than did, ours?  :mshock:

Above, you call for JUDGMENT of the "BLACK SIN" of the murderer to be JUDGED by FIRE, and of course, ...your "little WHITE SINS" to be ignored because they, in your decieving estimation of yourself, are NOT as "bad" as he whom you JUDGE...   :faint:

The TRUE citizens of heaven do not JUDGE, for they are commanded by CHRIST to abstain from it -- Matt 7:1 -- instead, they bring GOOD NEWS to the downtrodden of this life, NEWS that informs them that their SINS have been TAKEN AWAY -- John 1:29 -- and that they are UNCONDITIONALLY LOVED, by the ONLY ONE who has the RIGHT to JUDGE them -- John 8:10-11  -- remember CHRIST is IMPARTIAL to ALL -- If He had the chance to pass JUDGMENT upon one (woman in adultery) and He did NOT --- and Scripture notes that He remains the SAME -- Heb 13:8 -- YESTERDAY (to the adulterous woman) TODAY (to you and I) and FOREVER (to all who are walk the earth within the course of time)...  :dontknow:

Yes, Jesus paid for their sins. That doesn't mean they won't continue to do them. What I am saying is, if a person is not made righteous on this earth then wouldn't it make sense for them to go through whatever they need to go through in order to make them righteous? (AKA the lake of fire...)

ALL are UNRIGHTEOUS lomarah -- Rom 3:10 -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- and ALL are partakers of the 2nd death... which IS the LAKE OF FIRE...

Read the list -- Rev 21:8 -- do you find yourself on it?  If you do, then you have YOUR part of the Lake of FIRE... which has been my POINT all along... We are ALL IN IT NOW!!!  

That list covers everyone!!  UNBELIEF is listed as a "reason" to elect us to the LOF, and it is GOD which concludes EVERYONE in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- keep studying kid... if you do with ALL your might, and diligence, then your GUESSING will cease... and you shall behold the WORD that passes KNOWLEDGE -- Eph 3:19

Will you answer this question I asked you? --->

As He "added" you, were you TORMENTED?  And if HE "added" you by HIS DOING, without TORMENT, how does He remain IMPARTIAL, by "adding" others VIA TORMENT?  :mshock:

Or this one? --->

Let me ask you a question... If GOD is IMPARTIAL to any person (10 verses say He IS)... then He EQUALLY treats each person.  So if YOU do not have to endure TORMENT outside of THIS LIFE... how does God maintain that "IMPARTIALITY", by TORMENTING others outside of THIS LIFE?

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[legoman]

Wow, good stuff willieH!  I will continue studying the scriptures you have referenced, and continue studying the idea of "the lake of fire is now"...

[Livelystone]

only unbelievers are resurrected at this Great White Throne Judgement

Why do you say that ?........ the Bible does not sat that ! ......... only man says that  :Chinscratch:

Jesus said that there will be believers and unbelievers resurrected together

For that matter all are resurrected to the GWT and it is immediately following their natural death and not a thousand years later

Remember it is not just that a day is a thousand years but that a thousand years (something that no man has lived to see) is as a day!!!........ (a different dispensation)

Blessings

Doug

[ibelongtoyoujesus]

We can guess all we want but when it comes right down to it I think there are some things we may never know until they actually come about. What I try to do is just trust God with it knowing that He is Good and is Love and that He will always act in goodness and love.

:thinking: :dunno2:

Sometimes I get frustrated when I cant piece it all together.In the end, what I do is exactly what you mentioned.

[ibelongtoyoujesus]

There sure seems to be a lot of opinions. :wacko2: :megashock:

[ibelongtoyoujesus]

But I don't think eternal hell/torment believers know any better  :tongue:

[lomarah]

UGGGHHHHHHHH I am so annoyed, I had started writing a long reply and somehow I ended up closing out internet explorer...   :Oops: :grave:

[Livelystone]

There sure seems to be a lot of opinions. :wacko2: :megashock:

What you can do is just believe what the Bible teaches however to be able to take that at face value one has to be cleansed of all the traditions of man that they have been taught for so long......... that takes quite a bit of scrubbing

We are all born into death (Yea we walk through the valley of death) and each man is appointed a time to die.......... that is our first death from beginning to end

Those who are resurrected in this life will do the "second death" while they still live in this body and in this life having gone from being "dead to God" yet alive unto the world but still in the valley having then become as the "lilies of the valley" that Jesus tends to (Lillies have 6 petals that is the number of man and they are white having already been clothed in white by Jesus)............already being resurrected and sitting in heavenly places with Him that happens before they reach their 'appointed time to die". (physical death)

Peter died this "second death" when he glorified God and then lived the rest of his life doing the works of God until the day that he died that was already appointed to him before he died his second death.

Regarding the appointed time to die is just before that same individuals "judgement"........ The author of Hebrews tells is that

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


Personally I have a more sure word of prophecy then those who just have "their opinions" regarding this whole event having already died once in a car accident only to return to life some 20 minutes or so later........... in between that time I saw what all will see when they too die......... interesting point is that it was different from what I was taught as a child having been taught like you that only unbelievers go to the GWT......... if you like I can PM the experience to you as I have it written out in my doc folder

You may do the second death in  this life but the LOF is reserved for those who have not yet died their "second death" by the time that they experience their "appointed time to die" that is the end of life as most know it to be........ IMO most will expirance at least some time in the LOF but foir sure it will only be those who live in Christ now in this life on the same level that the apostles did that will be excused from any "afterlife fire"

Hell is the fire that we are in now by our works and/or the works of those around us.... David spoke of it as where we "rest" if we have like all others have rested in our own works rather than those of God

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Blessings

Doug