Why the B-I-B-L-E?

[rosered]

OK, Card and Rose and ??????, how do you think things would be different if we did not have the Bible? Would we be more sane and united or less?

I know I am asking for what can't be known but I think what I am asking is worth some thought. I think God is doing something more here than expecting us to figure out what the Bible is saying.

It conceals and reveals, it is a spiritual book and so on but what about all those who just read it like a story book or an ordinary book and live their lives just fine? I frankly know of no other people who see things in the Bible like many of us do here on this forum. Most of my friends see 'Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so' and that is good enough for them, oh of course they also see all the physical applications which just blesses their socks off.

cp

Hi Bro C
 without the word/ a book  to many folks in the past     that phase   was called the dark ages

  so though  there is more Light / knowledge    , like in the book of Daniel


 our names are also written in the book ...


And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  

Dan 12:2   And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.  

Dan 12:3   And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.  

Dan 12:4   But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.  

  Jesus mentions also in Matt 24  , the gospel  preached

 its bigger now than ever ,  but  the good is coming through all the bad   :thumbsup:  because the Lord will be victorious

 :HeartThrob:

[Gab]

I was going to start a new topic but this one seems perfect for what I have on my mind today.

I am thinking we can take any book and make of it whatever we want to believe it to be. I am airing some thoughts here and don't want to sound angry or frustrated but I'm thinking the Bible is being used by God in ways we don't realize. We say it's a source of knowledge, both spiritual and physical and I agree but so are many books. We say it predicts things that come true and I agree but much is in the interpretation and again, we can interpret many writings to say what we want them to say.

It seems there is so much argument where the Bible is concerned. It, like Jesus is reported as saying about Himself, does cause much division.

Those people who really never even see a Bible or have one and never open it or rarely do so, and are good, God fearing people, are these people more blessed than those of us who search it 'daily' and only come up with arguments or things that cause contradictions? I mean it. I know so many really good Christians who know a fraction of the things discussed here at Tentmaker and they are content. They basically know 'Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so' and they have their favorite verses and they live their whole lives very content and productive.

What would life be like if the Bible did not even exist? What if we had just good writings of people who were moved by God. Again, what would history and life be like today if the Bible never existed in it's physical form?

cp

I sincerely doubt I could say what I'd like to say in response without incurring several disapproving looks, so I'll just say that I understand exactly where you're coming from here, and that I sympathize with the thoughts you present.

[claypot]

Be adventurous Gab and say away! Too much caution makes for dull reading!

I'm thinking the Bible is needed but I'm wondering if it is suppose to be something we 'crucify' to get at what it is meant for. I am not being judgmental here. Maybe it is suppose to be crucified but I don't want to be the one taking part in it or do I? Sheesh, I raise more questions for myself as I write..................When will my madness end!  :mshock:

Are we crucifying the Word with our never ending analyzing? I know we are suppose to study and meditate on it but I wonder...................

cp

[WhiteWings]

I know we are suppose to study and meditate on it but I wonder...................

But we are also said to believe like a child. Childs don't study.
We are also told not count prayer like the pagans. I know prayers are not study but still.....dunno how to say it....don't talk but act. Don't talk about helping those in need but go outside to do so.

[rosered]

Too much caution makes for dull reading!

LOL, now its known what you think of some replies  ha ha ..... :icon_jokercolor: just kiddin Bro C
  You know , been thinkin about this ''type of '' free and random reasoning , and believe it is  dangerous  over thinking ......
  an example here ...
and I am so  guilty of this   ''type of reasoning    crossing the mind ''  please see if you know what  im saying here ...

 we all have to die  correct
 now how we die   has everything to do with the  ''reasoning mind ''  

here is the randomness  of dying reasoning ..  and where does the   subtle yet evil reasoning come in to play ?

 well could die in a car wreck  going any where  at any time  :dontknow:

 well  they have to die anyway  , so why not help them out a bit  :msealed:
    they are lying there in misery(diseased)   so God take them home with you  :mshock:

 or spare them Lord  so they can glorify you ..... :msealed:
and the list can go on and on and on

 Now the WORD OF GOD and Spirit of God  can do anyof these they are Life and death    

 the Word of God has always been a spoken Word     way before pages and ink  and a printer came along ..lol  

So the mind/ heart  is like a sponge and container  ready to process the information  in randomess depending on what type of reasoning is used  for good or evil and what Spirit  is influencing  the mind ,,,,,,,, :2c:

 just some things to consider  :HeartThrob:


reasoning  



rea⋅son⋅ing  –noun 1. the act or process of a person who reasons.
2. the process of forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.
3. the reasons, arguments, proofs, etc., resulting from this process.


Origin:
1325–75; ME resoninge. See reason, -ing 2

Related forms:

rea⋅son⋅ing⋅ly, adverb
rea⋅son  /ˈrizən/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [ree-zuhn]  Show IPA
–noun 1. a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc.: the reason for declaring war.  
2. a statement presented in justification or explanation of a belief or action.
3. the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences.
4. sound judgment; good sense.
5. normal or sound powers of mind; sanity.
6. Logic. a premise of an argument.
7. Philosophy. a. the faculty or power of acquiring intellectual knowledge, either by direct understanding of first principles or by argument.
b. the power of intelligent and dispassionate thought, or of conduct influenced by such thought.
c. Kantianism. the faculty by which the ideas of pure reason are created.


–verb (used without object) 8. to think or argue in a logical manner.
9. to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.
10. to urge reasons which should determine belief or action.

–verb (used with object) 11. to think through logically, as a problem (often fol. by out).
12. to conclude or infer.
13. to convince, persuade, etc., by reasoning.
14. to support with reasons.

—Idioms15. bring (someone) to reason, to induce a change of opinion in (someone) through presentation of arguments; convince: The mother tried to bring her rebellious daughter to reason.  
16. by reason of, on account of; because of: He was consulted about the problem by reason of his long experience.  
17. in or within reason, in accord with reason; justifiable; proper: She tried to keep her demands in reason.  
18. stand to reason, to be clear, obvious, or logical: With such an upbringing it stands to reason that the child will be spoiled.  
19. with reason, with justification; properly: The government is concerned about the latest crisis, and with reason.  



Origin:
1175–1225; ME resoun, reisun (n.) < OF reisun, reson < L ratiōn- (s. of ratiō) ratio

[rosered]

I know we are suppose to study and meditate on it but I wonder...................

But we are also said to believe like a child. Childs don't study.
We are also told not count prayer like the pagans. I know prayers are not study but still.....dunno how to say it....don't talk but act. Don't talk about helping those in need but go outside to do so.

  Been thinking about how sometimes   words can not   express
   the  dare i say feelings   within  us stirring  at different times  and points of our lives

  I do  know Jesus said be a  hearer and  more so DOER  of the Word 

  but we wait for that type of power to do most of ourlives not knowing if it is the right thing to do!!!

  I agree kids  learn  more from experience than  hearing that is the school of ''hard knocks ''  still a teacher none the less  :icon_flower:

  :HeartThrob:

[claypot]

I'm hearing ya, Rose and WW. I'm just noticing how some of my friends who take the things of God so simply, have such a contented good relationship with God. I am not jealous, just being observant and honest.

Are we crucifying Jesus (the Word) over and over by continuing to debate and reason out the Bible?

I am seeing the crucifixion in a new light here. The crucifixion of Jesus was done under God's guiding hand, correct? It seems this is another way of God simply saying, 'Jacob I love, Esau I hate.'

God loves the simplicity of the spirtitual and hates anything (carnality/over-analysis) that gets in the way.

I am not dissecting Scripture here, just commenting on what I see.

cp

[rosered]

I'm hearing ya, Rose and WW. I'm just noticing how some of my friends who take the things of God so simply, have such a contented good relationship with God. I am not jealous, just being observant and honest.

Are we crucifying Jesus (the Word) over and over by continuing to debate and reason out the Bible?

I am seeing the crucifixion in a new light here. The crucifixion of Jesus was done under God's guiding hand, correct? It seems this is another way of God simply saying, 'Jacob I love, Esau I hate.'

God loves the simplicity of the spirtitual and hates anything (carnality/over-analysis) that gets in the way.

I am not dissecting Scripture here, just commenting on what I see.

cp

  Well  said bro C !!   
  understand you  completly ..
  how our  hands  have  handled'' the Word of Life ''   
at the '' hands of sinful men ''  crucify Christ  :mblush:

   Have thought the same things bro .. :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

God loves the simplicity of the spirtitual and hates anything (carnality/over-analysis) that gets in the way.

Yes but....
It's like marriage with someone you only know the name of.
Believe in Father. Believe in Son. Believe in HS. Fine. But who are they? What do they do? What do they hate? What do they love? What do they want us to do? Etc.
How can I find the answers to those questions? Isn't the only place in the Bible? By study. Ofcouse it can be said read it literally and that's it. But the, why did God put in all those hidden layers and those little 'weird' things? Aren't they there to be found? But they won't be found by just looking at the cover of the Bible....

[Beloved Servant]

Weymouth New Testament
"Blessed are you, Simon Bar-jonah," said Jesus; "for mere human nature has not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven. Matthew 16:17

Weymouth New Testament
For us, however, God has drawn aside the veil through the teaching of the Spirit; for the Spirit searches everything, including the depths of the divine nature. 1 Corinthians 2:10

[rosered]

God loves the simplicity of the spirtitual and hates anything (carnality/over-analysis) that gets in the way.

Yes but....
It's like marriage with someone you only know the name of.
Believe in Father. Believe in Son. Believe in HS. Fine. But who are they? What do they do? What do they hate? What do they love? What do they want us to do? Etc.
How can I find the answers to those questions? Isn't the only place in the Bible? By study. Ofcouse it can be said read it literally and that's it. But the, why did God put in all those hidden layers and those little 'weird' things? Aren't they there to be found? But they won't be found by just looking at the cover of the Bible....

 True  Bro T aka WW ,  a marriage  (union)    is like  taking the good with the bad
 , its not all good nor all bad  
 reasoning together  and both loving peace really helps lol... :laughing7:

 How many arranged marriages are in name only   and Not marry for Love ?

It all depends on how   both come together  as One ,  most out of some need  that is lacking  alone . All  relationships  have to take and give  to work out  :thumbsup:

 Like what you said about the layers  of hidden truth to be searched out and found in the WORD / BIBLE
  it is true  :icon_flower:

 :HeartThrob:
 

[rosered]

Weymouth New Testament
"Blessed are you, Simon Bar-jonah," said Jesus; "for mere human nature has not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven. Matthew 16:17

Weymouth New Testament
For us, however, God has drawn aside the veil through the teaching of the Spirit; for the Spirit searches everything, including the depths of the divine nature. 1 Corinthians 2:10

Well said Bro Dave
  and to the point  , a  wonderful  and  simple  truth

   the Holy Spirit given by   the grace of Gods gift  does teach and correct ua all  , but until that time comes we  struggle with   Who is God and Jesus Christ to us ..
  :HeartThrob:

[claypot]

Yes but....
It's like marriage with someone you only know the name of.
Believe in Father. Believe in Son. Believe in HS. Fine. But who are they? What do they do? What do they hate? What do they love? What do they want us to do? Etc.
How can I find the answers to those questions? Isn't the only place in the Bible? By study. Ofcouse it can be said read it literally and that's it. But the, why did God put in all those hidden layers and those little 'weird' things? Aren't they there to be found? But they won't be found by just looking at the cover of the Bible....

I never read a book about my wife yet I met her, wooed her, courted her, married her and she, me. Didn't need a book.

I really don't think the Bible helps us know God in the way we think it does. I'm thinkin it's purpose is something else. Yes, I see the Bible as a source of comfort, as are many written works, when read in simplicity. I see the Bible as a source of wars and factions and misery and confusion in a large degree. It makes for great discussions and debates and thus, forums like this one, but I don't think all this was God's purpose in His use of physical words.

WW, how you find answers to your questions is to live life to it's fullest. Take chances, dance like a dervish, sing like a bird. Read, talk, do, relax, enjoy.............

There could be 'hidden layers' in the writings on a ketchup bottle if one wanted to believe.

cp

[WhiteWings]

I never read a book about my wife

And why exactly you didn't need to read a book about your wife CP?

yet I met her, wooed her, courted her, married her and she, me.

That's why you

Didn't need a book

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: One of the reasons we read the book is to learn His nature, so He can begin to speak to us personally, and we can learn to discern just who it is speaking. The enemy of our souls has spoken to us from the beginning; now it's God's turn. My  :2c: Blessings....

[claypot]

I never read a book about my wife

And why exactly you didn't need to read a book about your wife CP?

yet I met her, wooed her, courted her, married her and she, me.

That's why you

Didn't need a book

I didn't need a book because our 'spirits' connected I believe.

Good words by all and I mean it. I'm just working out some things on this end. Thanks all.

cp

[WhiteWings]

I never read a book about my wife

And why exactly you didn't need to read a book about your wife CP?

yet I met her, wooed her, courted her, married her and she, me.

That's why you

Didn't need a book

I didn't need a book because our 'spirits' connected I believe.

And that's the best way to figure out if it's the right partner. But God doesn't sit down with me to have  a nice informal chat. He's like a penpal. He wrote a message. And that's all I have.
Stay connected CP :thumbsup:

[claypot]

WW,

Gotcha my friend.

But let me add that I do think God sits down with us to have informal chats more than we may realize. We have more than we think, I think.

cp

[WhiteWings]

I knew someone was going to say that :laughing7:
But do you notice God sits down with you?
If yes would you if you had never heard of Him? (no Bible)

Maybe God sits down with me more than with everyone that ever lived.
But if I'm to stupid to notice, what's the use?

[claypot]

I knew someone was going to say that :laughing7:
But do you notice God sits down with you?
If yes would you if you had never heard of Him? (no Bible)

Maybe God sits down with me more than with everyone that ever lived.
But if I'm to stupid to notice, what's the use?

God has ways other than the Bible of making Himself 'noticable' I believe.

I have observed a few things concerning the Bible and people. First, some don't even really even read it yet I think have solid relationships that can't be denied. Some are just illiterate (I say this respectfully), others are just not readers. Secondly, those who do read it, read it erroniously (sp?). I'm not saying who reads in error but I suppose it's all of us at some points but some really get off base where, if the Bible didn't exist that would not be a problem. Sure I suppose not having the Bible would create other problems but again, I am just working out a few things and you and the others are sure helping. I thank you, WW, and Rose and all here who are so patient with me and my weird thoughts.

You are not too stupid to notice, you just see it as something else maybe?

Do I notice when God sits down with me, you ask?

Sheesh, now I am the one who feels stupid! I think God talks to me all the time via my kids (11 of them) and my wife (seems like 11 of her sometimes!) He talks to me via the wind and friends. I know this sounds poetic or whatever but how else does God sit down and talk with us if not like this?

If the Bible never existed I think I would have 'heard' of God some other way. Matter of fact I did hear about God first, not from the Bible, but from a person. I don't know where that person heard about God first but I suppose there are people who find out about God first from the Bible, but some hear of God in all sorts of ways other than the Bible.

Nature is a very good source.

Look at all those who hear about God from the Bible and then spend most their lives trying to decipher what they heard to the point of wondering if what they heard was real or not.

cp

[WhiteWings]

You are not too stupid to notice, you just see it as something else maybe?

Good point. What if I think it's the tree god talking to me, and I start worshipping oak trees?

About something else. Several people said to me, either in public, PM or email, that some things I wrote were from the HS.
Yesterday I had such an email. A forum member told me we have two minds. Our own and that of the HS Or something to that effect. It was about remembering a verse that fitted in the conversation we had.
I always assume it's because I simply are able to remember things. Others say it also could be the HS inserting a thought 'when needed'.
I assume that sorta is "God sitting with me"
But I can vow that I truely don't know if I can distinguish between my memory and HS giving me a thought.
That said I think I was never 'visited' so there is nothing to distingish.

To come back at no Bible. I thought about it and it seems so impossible to me. The OT is around for a very long time.
Some did study it daily. And still Jesus was very displeased with them.
Christians without an Bible=teaching are just pagans.
Pagans also hear inspired voices. Or at least they think so. And even if they hear voices it are the wrong ones...
Plus Jesus didn't spend 3 years of His life teaching and sorta "writing" NT because Father as a zillion other ways to reach us. Yes He has. But the existance of OT and NT tells me He choose that not the way the game is played??? :2c:
Note: not claiming the HS can't reveal Himself. But I think that's reserved for the elect. Again :2c:

[Cardinal]

You are not too stupid to notice, you just see it as something else maybe?

Good point. What if I think it's the tree god talking to me, and I start worshipping oak trees?

:cloud9: ROFLOL.......then your trusty friends at Tentmaker (chainsaws in back pockets) would come to your rescue and er, DELIVER "firewood".  :grin:

Seriously though, cp. In the beginning of things, there was no written Word. Men were likely closer to the remembrances of Adam who walked in the cool (means His breath) of the day with God. But the result was still the same by the time 8 generations rolled thru  they only imagined evil in their hearts continually, and He was ready to bring in a flood to kill off all flesh, which He did.

So what is written is a like a map to follow in the dark; back to where we were before the fall, and the Spirit is our flashlight so we don't trip over any rocks, fall off a cliff, or drown.

Any woman will tell you, it's a "man thing" that men have to be talked into taking a map on a trip, because they are convinced they know the way to Phoenix from Buffalo, and "Really, honey........going thru Florida was all part of the plan. I swear!"   :laughing7:  Blessings....

[Seth]

What personally convincies you that the Bible is Gods revelation to man (above any other text)? its something Ive thought about on and off for awhile and I have my own reasons that I believe of course.

The point is not to "debate" but just to complile of list of reasons that you feel strongly about. could be fun?

Great question, not sure if it's been said.

First, for me, my faith is a gift from God and not from my own mind and mental devices. The providence of God regarding my faith cannot be ignored.

Having said that, one thing that comes to mind is how the mystery of Christ was revealed through the prophets. God was quite displeased with his chosen many times and the prophets were stoned. Yet their writings remained preserved. Not to mention the fact that it was revealed later that the Messiah was testified in a mystery throughout the writings, unbeknownst to the generation that put him to death, who were looking for the Messiah they killed. Pretty amazing.

[claypot]

What if I think it's the tree god talking to me, and I start worshipping oak trees?

To come back at no Bible. I thought about it and it seems so impossible to me. The OT is around for a very long time.
Some did study it daily. And still Jesus was very displeased with them.
Christians without an Bible=teaching are just pagans.
Pagans also hear inspired voices. Or at least they think so. And even if they hear voices it are the wrong ones...
Plus Jesus didn't spend 3 years of His life teaching and sorta "writing" NT because Father as a zillion other ways to reach us. Yes He has. But the existance of OT and NT tells me He choose that not the way the game is played??? :2c:
Note: not claiming the HS can't reveal Himself. But I think that's reserved for the elect. Again :2c:

I almost worship oak trees. I have cut almost 15 cords of them this year. I am tired of oak trees but they make good fire wood so don't belittle oak trees. Just funnin with ya.

Interesting though how God hides as much as He reveals. The Bible was in the hands of those who couldn't see the forest because of the trees and they killed Jesus. The Bible was in the hands of the Inquistion folks and they lived their lives by it, killing anyone who disagreed with them, according to the Bible as they saw it. Many evils done are done with the blessings of the Bible. We on this forum argue ad infinitum about it. I just wonder who the pagans really are.

Good words though, WW, thanks.

So what is written is a like a map to follow in the dark; back to where we were before the fall, and the Spirit is our flashlight so we don't trip over any rocks, fall off a cliff, or drown.

I hear ya Card. I wonder though, is this a map of our own making. I mean we have some words delivered to us from God and now we take these words and have to decipher them. We decipher them in a lot of ways. Maybe it is not the words that I am having trouble with, it's the interpretation process.

I do agree it is all God. His words need to be translated in our beings by Him (HS). It's the only way it can be.

Thanks Card for all your input.

cp

[Gab]

Be adventurous Gab and say away! Too much caution makes for dull reading!

Well, let's just say that I think that, while those who read the Bible for guidance before doing anything at all in life certainly have a level of devoutness that is to be admired, I can't help but feel that they've missed something somewhere along the way.  As has been noted before, the word of God is Jesus, not the Bible.  The Holy Spirit gives us love and guides us in the right direction, but where does the Holy Spirit reside?  Within our hearts, not within the pages of a book.  I don't mean to discount the value of the Bible, but I do not believe that it was ever intended to be a ball and chain around our ankles that we must always consult compulsively before even going to the supermarket.  It can be mistranslated, misquoted, misunderstood, and misused, but the love in our hearts cannot.